1
00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

2
00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,280
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

3
00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:10,440
Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

4
00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

5
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,319
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

6
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

7
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,360
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

8
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

9
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

10
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 1: in their lives.

11
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,400
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

12
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,199
Speaker 2: a woman with a difficult mother wonders if there's a

13
00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,160
Speaker 2: way to interact with her that won't cause so much pain.

14
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,839
Speaker 3: She was saying that she'd always tried to be a

15
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,559
Speaker 3: good mother. I felt they poked, She'd kept poking at it.

16
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,519
Speaker 3: She would talk quite defensively about why she couldn't have

17
00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 3: done them better, what was going on for her at

18
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:54,560
Speaker 3: the time.

19
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

20
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is

21
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

22
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

23
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,400
Speaker 1: use it in part orn ful, and we may edit

24
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,040
Speaker 1: it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear.

25
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,640
Speaker 1: All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

26
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,080
Speaker 2: Hey, Lourie, Hi guy. So what do we have in

27
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:24,119
Speaker 2: our mailbooks today?

28
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 1: Today we have a letter from a woman who has

29
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,720
Speaker 1: a difficult relationship with her mother, and it goes like this,

30
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,080
Speaker 1: Dear therapists, I am writing for help with my relationship

31
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 1: with my mother. Since I stopped drinking a couple of

32
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,840
Speaker 1: years ago, I have felt a lot of resentment when

33
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,399
Speaker 1: I'm around her. This came as a surprise to me.

34
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 1: I want a relationship with her, but I've come to

35
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 1: think that the low self esteem I struggled with throughout

36
00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,560
Speaker 1: my twenties, which led to a pattern of numbing with alcohol,

37
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: was the result of having two emotionally neglectful parents. A

38
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 1: depressed and alcoholic father who was often absent, and a

39
00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,360
Speaker 1: physically present but narcissistic mother. I learned that my feelings

40
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 1: didn't matter, and I've carried that into adult life. When

41
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:05,560
Speaker 1: I am around my mother, I feel like she takes

42
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,520
Speaker 1: up all of this space and oxygen. What hurts most

43
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,200
Speaker 1: is that she rarely asked me anything about myself except

44
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,040
Speaker 1: one or two token questions, and she changed the subject

45
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,280
Speaker 1: back to her rapidly. She is also very defensive about

46
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 1: any feedback or even the most minor hint of criticism.

47
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,520
Speaker 1: Things became very strained between us about two years ago

48
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 1: when I accidentally opened a can of worms. My mom

49
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,799
Speaker 1: for many years has worried obsessively about my older sister,

50
00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 1: who has various emotional difficulties and has genuinely struggled with life.

51
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,840
Speaker 1: Not that I haven't, but my mom has a narrative

52
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 1: of me being quote the strong one, and she says

53
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 1: this to me directly, things like Claire struggles, but You've

54
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 1: always been much more resilient. I find this incredibly painful

55
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 1: because this isn't how I see myself, and because I

56
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 1: feel she's used this narrative as a reason not to

57
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 1: give me support. This included the period of my late

58
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,360
Speaker 1: teens when I was self medicating with party drugs, skipping

59
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,560
Speaker 1: college due to lack of motivation, and clearly developed an

60
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 1: eating disorder. But I can't remember any adult in my

61
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,280
Speaker 1: family ever asking if I was okay. I remember my

62
00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,720
Speaker 1: mom yelling at me for skipping college, and when she

63
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,360
Speaker 1: found my antidepressant, she said, you don't need to be

64
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: on those. Finally, a couple of years ago, I ended

65
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,640
Speaker 1: up telling her that I didn't like her, casting me

66
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 1: as the resilient one, and she got very defensive and

67
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 1: then went to Pieces in the end collapsing on the

68
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,799
Speaker 1: beach and saying she thought we loved each other again.

69
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 1: It seemed to be about her. I took a break

70
00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 1: from her for a few months, but when she visited

71
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,640
Speaker 1: me months later, we segued back into this conversation and

72
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 1: it became very heated. She went to Pieces again and

73
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 1: I ended up looking after her. I'm trying to see

74
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 1: the best in my mother, but I grapple with questions

75
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 1: of whether I should ever ask her to do anything differently.

76
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 1: Is there any point given her history of defensiveness and

77
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,040
Speaker 1: poor listening and communication skills. I would really appreciate your advice.

78
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,480
Speaker 1: I feel so stuck Melanie.

79
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 2: Well, I really feel for Melanie because it sounds like

80
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 2: she's in a lot of pain about this relationship and

81
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 2: obviously has been since her childhood, and from what she's describing,

82
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,920
Speaker 2: her mother certainly has limitations, and it sounds like Melanie

83
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 2: is having a hard time accepting what those are and

84
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 2: navigating around them. She I think, keeps hoping her mother

85
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 2: will show up for her in a way her mother

86
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 2: never really has, and so she's really stuck in this

87
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,760
Speaker 2: limbo of wanting a relationship with her mom that she

88
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,200
Speaker 2: can't have and at the same time perhaps having trouble

89
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,800
Speaker 2: exploring what relationship with her mother she could have. And

90
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:32,200
Speaker 2: that's where she's stuck right now.

91
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, we see this so much where people come in

92
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 1: and they're really in pain over the relationships with one

93
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 1: or both parents and they want to have a relationship

94
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: with that parent. But what they're really not clear on

95
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,440
Speaker 1: is do I want a relationship with this parent given

96
00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,239
Speaker 1: this parent's limitations and what would that look like versus

97
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 1: still having that childhood fantasy of I want a relationship

98
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,640
Speaker 1: with the kind of parent that I deserve to have.

99
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,440
Speaker 1: So let's go talk to her and learn more about

100
00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:12,000
Speaker 1: this relationship. Absolutely, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my

101
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:21,599
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

102
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 2: I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is

103
00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 2: Dear Therapist.

104
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,200
Speaker 1: Hi Melanie, Hi there, thank you for coming on the show.

105
00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:34,680
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

106
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,960
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. We wanted to start with this question.

107
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about what it was like

108
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:41,760
Speaker 2: growing up with your mum.

109
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,120
Speaker 3: I would say that we were loved as kids, me

110
00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 3: and my sister. You know, we did nice activities. We

111
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 3: saw friends for we went on outings. We had all

112
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 3: our sort of practical needs met. They had Christmas presents,

113
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 3: we had some holidays. Things were quite good in ways.

114
00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,359
Speaker 3: But looking back, I feel like my mum has never

115
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,920
Speaker 3: really been sort of present mentally, and even now I

116
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 3: never feel like she's really fully present with me. I

117
00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:26,040
Speaker 3: also feel like we didn't get enough validation of our emotions.

118
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 3: So I feel like what I was really missing was

119
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:36,120
Speaker 3: that kind of calm, attentive presence and like the nourishing

120
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 3: parental influence.

121
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,800
Speaker 2: Do you remember moments from your childhood in which that

122
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:42,799
Speaker 2: was absent.

123
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 3: I can remember being really little, like five or six maybe,

124
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,559
Speaker 3: and my mum walking me home from school every day,

125
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,400
Speaker 3: and every day she'd ask what did you do at

126
00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,880
Speaker 3: school today? And I remember that every day I'd say nothing.

127
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 3: And I think this is strange to have that awareness

128
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 3: of what was going on for me at such a

129
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,880
Speaker 3: young age, But I think what it was was like,

130
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,679
Speaker 3: I never really felt like she was interested. I felt

131
00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 3: it was a standard issue question, so I'd always say

132
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,440
Speaker 3: nothing because I didn't really feel like she was listening.

133
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,280
Speaker 1: Did you wish that she had asked something else? Or

134
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 1: did you just feel like if I answered, she's not

135
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 1: going to be paying attention.

136
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,040
Speaker 3: I think it was more the latter. As I've got older,

137
00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,640
Speaker 3: I've definitely wanted her to ask different questions, and you know,

138
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 3: the kinds of questions I would ask friends. For example,

139
00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,800
Speaker 3: I wouldn't just say how was work and then move on.

140
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 3: I'd say, you know, like, how was work he says

141
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,320
Speaker 3: you were having a rough time lately, or how is

142
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 3: that new manager working out? So I've always felt like

143
00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 3: the questions are kind of standard issue. She doesn't really

144
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,720
Speaker 3: listened to what you say, and then she's kind of

145
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 3: moved on.

146
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 1: Where does she move to when she moves on? Is

147
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,280
Speaker 1: it about her? Is it about small talk? Where does

148
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:10,560
Speaker 1: she go?

149
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,200
Speaker 3: She often moves on to her. She'll bring things back

150
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,080
Speaker 3: to her own life, her own experience quite consistently.

151
00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 2: Do you have recollections from your adolescence of moments in

152
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,440
Speaker 2: which this dynamic happened? Where she wasn't quite present, or

153
00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,239
Speaker 2: she seemed to be asking the question, but the substance

154
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 2: was lacking.

155
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,720
Speaker 3: For you, I do there was a particularly difficult time

156
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 3: in my late teens when my mental health was going downhill.

157
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:49,439
Speaker 3: She would kind of demand factual information from me, didn't

158
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 3: really ask what's going on for you? Is everything okay

159
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,440
Speaker 3: for you? How are you feeling? I would be asked,

160
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,439
Speaker 3: why are you seeing that? You know, what kind of

161
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,200
Speaker 3: anxiety do you have? And oh? At that time, and

162
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,400
Speaker 3: it has other times felt like a sort of bombardment

163
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:14,559
Speaker 3: of questions as opposed to like I'm here, I'm listening,

164
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 3: you know, asking more open questions of the kind I

165
00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,720
Speaker 3: would like someone to do when I'm feeling fragile.

166
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 1: I think that goes back to being five years old

167
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,319
Speaker 1: and leaving school, and instead of saying how are you,

168
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,880
Speaker 1: she said what did you do today? There's a very

169
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,079
Speaker 1: different questions, and that wouldn't be a big deal if

170
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 1: she meant it in that way, but it sounds like

171
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,440
Speaker 1: she did not mean it in that way. She wasn't

172
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 1: looking to really hear how you were. And I think

173
00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,719
Speaker 1: that when you were struggling and you were trying to

174
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 1: get help in your teens there were Again, wasn't that

175
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,960
Speaker 1: question of what's going on? Talk to me? I'm here.

176
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:57,319
Speaker 1: How can I help.

177
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,600
Speaker 2: As well? If you you were seeing a therapist and

178
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 2: taking medication in your teens and your mother was against it,

179
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,320
Speaker 2: then how did you get hooked up with a therapist

180
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 2: and a psychiatrist.

181
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 3: I went to my doctor at how old? Seventeen? I

182
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 3: went to the GP. I was referred to psychiatry.

183
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,560
Speaker 2: But Sora Melanie, usually at seventeen it goes through a parent.

184
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,960
Speaker 2: You just initiated this yourself. I think there's something wrong.

185
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to contact myp and not even tell my

186
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 2: parents about it.

187
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,280
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't really feel I had an adult

188
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,960
Speaker 3: who would be there for me. I felt very alone

189
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,480
Speaker 3: with it, and I think I I was alone.

190
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 1: You said that your father was largely absent. Can you

191
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,880
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about him as well, so

192
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,400
Speaker 1: we understand the context in which you ended up going

193
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,360
Speaker 1: to the doctor alone.

194
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,319
Speaker 3: My parents divorced when I was twelve, and it was

195
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,719
Speaker 3: very messy and in the same town as us when

196
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,480
Speaker 3: I was seventeen, but I could go long periods without

197
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:09,400
Speaker 3: seeing him, and in the years running up to that age,

198
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 3: and for some years after. He had long periods of

199
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,760
Speaker 3: serious alcoholism. He wasn't really there a lot of the time.

200
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,959
Speaker 1: Did you see that in the house before they divorced?

201
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,040
Speaker 1: Did you see him drinking and checking out?

202
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah. After my mum left him, he kind of

203
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 3: deteriorated quite quickly. We were still living with him, but

204
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,880
Speaker 3: he was off work with depression. He was drinking a lot,

205
00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,920
Speaker 3: and he was kind of leaning on me and my

206
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,200
Speaker 3: sister emotionally as like a twelve year old and fifteen

207
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,439
Speaker 3: year old, So that was very difficult.

208
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 1: Was the reason that your mum left him because he

209
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: was drinking and not doing anything about it.

210
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 3: I think she left him because he was just not

211
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 3: being a present partner, not pulling his weight around the house.

212
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,400
Speaker 3: And really they're just quite badly matched. That's quite obvious

213
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,280
Speaker 3: with twenty years of hindsight.

214
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,920
Speaker 2: How did you feel about them separating? You were twelve.

215
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 2: Do you remember how they told you?

216
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 3: My mum had told me she was going to leave

217
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 3: a couple of years before she did, and then I

218
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,880
Speaker 3: think she tried to stick it out. I don't think

219
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,440
Speaker 3: I was that bothered by the separation itself. I think

220
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,959
Speaker 3: it was all the stuff around it. So how it

221
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,640
Speaker 3: was handled the fallout, I.

222
00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,880
Speaker 1: Suppose what did the fallout look like?

223
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 3: So my dad deteriorated and was drinking a lot and

224
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,959
Speaker 3: not looking after the house. He was spying on my mum.

225
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,679
Speaker 3: He had followed by a detective. At one point. There

226
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,720
Speaker 3: was a very weird situation. They were living next door

227
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 3: to each other because my mum owned the house next door.

228
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:03,600
Speaker 3: She previously rented it out, and in the absence of

229
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 3: many other options, she just sort of moved in there.

230
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 3: I felt very kind of self conscious about this strange

231
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 3: situation at home. My dad was a mess. We're probably

232
00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 3: exposed to a lot of stuff with him that we

233
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 3: weren't capable of dealing with. It didn't really feel like

234
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 3: there was anyone asking us how we were doing.

235
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 2: You say you were exposed to things that you're not

236
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,080
Speaker 2: supposed to be exposed to. Can you give us an example?

237
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 3: Just his sort of letting it all hang out emotionally.

238
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,599
Speaker 3: And I was dating someone new and he'd say, what

239
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,840
Speaker 3: hals he got that I haven't got, And he would

240
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,120
Speaker 3: say to me how lonely he was. And there was

241
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,320
Speaker 3: a time when he was saying to me, he was

242
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,560
Speaker 3: so lonely, and he really found it hard going to

243
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,480
Speaker 3: bed and being alone in bed, and I offered to

244
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 3: stay in bed with him to ease his life, and

245
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,880
Speaker 3: I did, and I didn't really want to because I

246
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,520
Speaker 3: was twelve. I didn't want to share a bed with

247
00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 3: my dad, but you know, I wanted him to feel better.

248
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,400
Speaker 3: It was a horrible environment.

249
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to your mom about what was

250
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,839
Speaker 1: going on with your dad? The things where he was

251
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,120
Speaker 1: asking you for company in ways that weren't appropriate, That

252
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 1: he was telling you things about his personal struggles that

253
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:26,480
Speaker 1: weren't appropriate.

254
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 3: I think I told hers some of it, and I

255
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,000
Speaker 3: think she actually directly observed some of it and was

256
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 3: quite critical of that.

257
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 1: But in terms of protecting you from all of this,

258
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 1: can you remember at all what maybe even one of

259
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 1: those conversations might have been like?

260
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,800
Speaker 2: No, do you recall how you felt at that time?

261
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 2: Were you angry? Did you blame one or the other?

262
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,720
Speaker 2: Were you talking with friends with things that emotionally for you?

263
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,960
Speaker 3: I felt worried about my dad, and at times I

264
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 3: was trying to be there for him, and at other

265
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,640
Speaker 3: times I just found it so horrendous. I didn't want

266
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 3: to look at it. And then I would, you know,

267
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 3: try and spend more time away from him, and I'd

268
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 3: feel guilty about that.

269
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,960
Speaker 1: Where was your sister and all of this. You mentioned

270
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 1: that she's three years older and that your mom does

271
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 1: recognize that she struggled from the fallout of all of this.

272
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 1: So what was going on between the two of you?

273
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,640
Speaker 1: Did you support each other? Did your mom listen to

274
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 1: her a little bit more?

275
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,040
Speaker 3: We were not close at that time and not for

276
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 3: many years afterwards. Actually we were quite mean to each other.

277
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 3: She kind of scrambled much more than me to go

278
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,680
Speaker 3: into looking after dad and felt very very protective of him,

279
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 3: And looking back, I think I saw that she was

280
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 3: a bit more angry with my mum. We're very close

281
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,280
Speaker 3: now and I like a great ally in her, very

282
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 3: grateful that we've improved our relationship, But I don't think

283
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 3: she was getting much input from my mum at that

284
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,080
Speaker 3: time either.

285
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,920
Speaker 2: Was there anyone at the time who knew that you

286
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 2: were really struggling? Because I want to point out when

287
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 2: anyone we ask you how you felt, you almost each

288
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 2: time first responded about how your mom or your dad

289
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 2: felt before you could talk about how you felt. And

290
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 2: I think that's probably representative of what was going on.

291
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 2: But was there anyone who asked who you approached and

292
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 2: talked about how you felt.

293
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 3: No, there wasn't anyone.

294
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 1: What happened when you were seventeen and you went to

295
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,080
Speaker 1: go see the doctor and you were referred to a psychiatrist.

296
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,480
Speaker 1: You told the doctor a little bit about what was

297
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 1: going on.

298
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 3: I didn't tell the doctor about any family circumstances. I

299
00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,520
Speaker 3: mainly talked about my sort of mental health symptoms. Referred

300
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,360
Speaker 3: me to psychiatry, and they did a proper assessment. They

301
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,919
Speaker 3: put me on antidepressants, and they referred me for cognitive

302
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 3: behavioral therapy. I quit after a few sessions because I

303
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,439
Speaker 3: was aware. I didn't pursue it, but I think what

304
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 3: I really needed at that particular time was just an

305
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 3: adult to take an interest. We weren't talking about what

306
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 3: was going on at all, and I was kind of

307
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:36,399
Speaker 3: doing exercises to address my symptoms. And I remember thinking,

308
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,640
Speaker 3: you know, I've been feeling suicidal for months and you're

309
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:40,959
Speaker 3: giving me exercises.

310
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,719
Speaker 1: Did you tell them that you were feeling suicidal?

311
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 3: I did in the initial assessment, which is why they

312
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 3: put me on the antidepressants. I would have thought that

313
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,000
Speaker 3: information was pastitive the therapist, but we didn't really talk

314
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:57,560
Speaker 3: about it.

315
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,680
Speaker 1: This feels almost like a repetition of what would happen

316
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 1: in your family, where you're doing everything you can to

317
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,200
Speaker 1: try to let people know that you're struggling, and people

318
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 1: are not giving you the kind of response that would

319
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 1: be helpful, and you were sort of numbing yourself with

320
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 1: recreational drugs. You were restricting your eating, you were trying

321
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 1: to find ways to cope with a situation where you

322
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:31,680
Speaker 1: weren't getting any support.

323
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. I was using a lot

324
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 3: of drugs from seventeen and these are the kinds of

325
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 3: drugs that are really messed with your brain.

326
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 1: What were you using, Well, a lot.

327
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,919
Speaker 3: Of eggs to say, that was my drug of choice.

328
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 3: And yes, I had an eating disorder. It wasn't ever diagnosed.

329
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 3: I didn't ever pursue any help with that, and I

330
00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 3: just kind of fell out of it at some point.

331
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,360
Speaker 2: You know, Manine, it's so unusual for a seventeen year

332
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,439
Speaker 2: old to pick themselves up and find a psychiatrist and

333
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 2: get assessed and then find a therapist. And it's so

334
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 2: unfortunate that you were desperately searching for some kind of

335
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 2: connection with some kind of adult who you could rely on,

336
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 2: because there were none, and it sounds like there was

337
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 2: zero connection with a therapist, and that just affirms to

338
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 2: you that adults don't see me.

339
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 3: I do remember feeling very alone, completely alone.

340
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 1: And on top of that, your mom found your anti

341
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: depressants and told you you don't need these, but didn't

342
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 1: seem curious at all about why you had them in

343
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 1: the first place. Did she ask you about that?

344
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 3: She didn't ask me any questions. It was ironic. She

345
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 3: worked in psychiatry herself. Looking back, I think maybe she

346
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,479
Speaker 3: was feeling scared and she reacted with anger and she

347
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 3: yelled at me and said, I remember very clearly she said,

348
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 3: I work with very sick people. You don't need to

349
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 3: be on these.

350
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 1: Do you remember telling her mom, I'm really struggling.

351
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 3: No. I think I felt like I couldn't trust her.

352
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 1: What did you think she would do if you had

353
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 1: said that?

354
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like she would handle them sensitively and

355
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 3: you know, tactfully and give me, you know, reassuring input.

356
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 1: So the trust was she won't be able to help me,

357
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 1: so it's a waste to tell her anyway, or the

358
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 1: trust is she might share this with people.

359
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 3: Well, she has compromised by privacy. At other times, just

360
00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:00,479
Speaker 3: other things, I felt like she wouldn't be caring and

361
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 3: and I needed that care and sensitivity. She was often

362
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 3: quite angry with me. I feel like I was struggling

363
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 3: and I was kind of granded as Devian. That's how

364
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 3: I felt.

365
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: This is so important because I think it relates to

366
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: what you're dealing with now, which is this idea that

367
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 1: I don't trust her to be careful with my heart.

368
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 3: I need you to get me right.

369
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: I think it's because I just touched your heart in

370
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 1: a way that you longed for your mom to that

371
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 1: I saw you in a way that you want your

372
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 1: mom to see you. And so I think that when

373
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 1: we're young and we know that we're not going to

374
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: get the response that's going to be caring and loving,

375
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: we start to distrust that person to handle our most tender,

376
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 1: vulnerable parts.

377
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 3: That sounds like very accurate to.

378
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 2: Me, and unfortunately for you, there wasn't anyone else that

379
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: was compensating for that. In other words, what you're probably

380
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 2: feeling at the time is that I can't trust anyone

381
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 2: with my heart because no one was taking any interest

382
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 2: in it. People could see that the parents got divorced,

383
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: that you might have been struggling. Suddenly there's a weight loss,

384
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: you're partying too much, and yet no one expressed concern

385
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 2: or care, So that mistrust must have expanded even beyond

386
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 2: your mom to people in general. Are there people who

387
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 2: can really care for me?

388
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: That hasn't occurred to me before, But potentially, yes, we

389
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 3: did have relatives who were in our lives. No one

390
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 3: ever asked how I was doing. I can remember my

391
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 3: auntie stopping me in the street and she sunded very

392
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 3: cross and say, you've got very thin, and she kind

393
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 3: of pulled at my trousers, just you know, to show

394
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 3: how much weight I'd lost. But it wasn't concerned. I felt.

395
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: I almost felt like I was being told off.

396
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: It felt like a criticism, like you've done something wrong,

397
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: as opposed to tell me what's going on? Are you okay?

398
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: Can I ask how old you are now?

399
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 3: I'm thirty six?

400
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: Okay, So between seventeen and thirty six, what has happened

401
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: with the relationship with your mom and your dad? And

402
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: then also you mentioned that you and your sister have

403
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: now reconciled.

404
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 3: So with my dad, I feel like we're in the

405
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 3: best place that we can be. I feel like he

406
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 3: has quite big limitations in terms of how close he

407
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: can just get to people. But I see him more

408
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 3: than I ever have. He has to stabilizer relationship, so

409
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 3: he's doing fairly well in himself, and I kind of

410
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 3: I don't really struggle so much with my relationship with

411
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 3: my dad because I feel like that's as good as

412
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: it's going to get, and it's a lot better than

413
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 3: it has been at times.

414
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: Does he have any idea about how much you've struggled?

415
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: Did you ever share that with him?

416
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 3: No? I don't think he can really do emotional conversations.

417
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: And what about your sister? When did that reconciliation happen?

418
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: And what does that look like in terms of the

419
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 1: emotional intimacy between the two of you.

420
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: I think there's just been a sort of softening for

421
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: both of us as we've got older. I've made a

422
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 3: conscious effort to speak to her more, and we have

423
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 3: quite intimate conversations now, like they're really nourishing to me.

424
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 3: We would never have had these ten years.

425
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: When did that start? And who reached out?

426
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: I think she has kind of sprung into action when

427
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 3: I've heard some difficult things going on in my life.

428
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 3: When I've left relationships, she's made an effort to connect

429
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: with me and check in with me. I've had some

430
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 3: health problems lately, as saying, the last year or two,

431
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: for some reason, we've started talking a lot about this

432
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 3: historical family stuff and current issues which we both have

433
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 3: with a mother.

434
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: And it sounds like that was the first time that

435
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: another adult, even though she's your peer for both adults

436
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: now showed concern for something you were struggling with.

437
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 3: Yes, for example, I left an abusive relationship and we

438
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 3: weren't living in the same town, but I remember when

439
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 3: I visited home, we were together a bit, and I

440
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: just remember feeling very cared for by her at that time.

441
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: What did she do that made you feel cared for?

442
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 3: She gave me all the kind of kind words and

443
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 3: assurances and encouragements that I needed and wanted, and she

444
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 3: also helped me navigate conversations with my parents. I think

445
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 3: I remember seeing my dad with her, and I didn't

446
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 3: necessarily have to tell him, but for whatever reason, I

447
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 3: wanted to tell him I've been in this abusive relationship,

448
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: and I think she kind of helped me tell him

449
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 3: and navigate that conversation that he wasn't really that well

450
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 3: equipped for. I just felt that she had my back.

451
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: I suppose she listened, is what she did. I mean,

452
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 2: this is the first thing. She can say, the kind words,

453
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: but in order to say them, she first has to

454
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 2: listen and actually hear you and actually see you and

455
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: actually convey that she gets what you were going through.

456
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 2: And then she consider words that are supportive. But even

457
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: when she's helping you navigate the conversation with your dad,

458
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: she's clearly listening and seeing you in a way that

459
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: none of the family members had. That must have been

460
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: really important for you in your early twenties to have

461
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: that experience for the first time of a family member

462
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: actually caring, actually helping, actually validating it.

463
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 3: Was It was really meaningful, and maybe that was the

464
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 3: start of us gradually improving our relationship.

465
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: I also think it's one thing to imagine what it

466
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: would feel like to get that kind of support, and

467
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: it's another thing entirely to actually experience it. And you

468
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: had been I imagine, fantasizing about what it would be

469
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: like your whole childhood to get that kind of support.

470
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: Maybe you even saw other people with their mothers or

471
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: fathers and had envy of what you imagined those conversations

472
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: look like in their households, and so you can fantasize

473
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: about it. When you get it, it's almost like you've

474
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: been dreaming of a meal forever and you're starving, and

475
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden someone feeds you. And it

476
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: feels so delicious to get that kind of support, to

477
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: be seen, to be heard, to be understood, and maybe

478
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: in a way that other people wouldn't quite understand because

479
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: she grew up in that house too, even if she

480
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: had a different experience of it, So it seems like

481
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: that maybe set the stage for something to happen between

482
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: the two of you.

483
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: I think it did.

484
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 1: She said, you've gotten into some historical family conversations. What

485
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: have those been like?

486
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 3: We've just been sharing our experiences of some really difficult times,

487
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 3: including you know, our parents' separation and the things that

488
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: happened around that. And then our experience is moving to

489
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: a new town a little bit later and both feeling

490
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: quite lonely, in adrift and like we didn't really belong

491
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: and she had some slightly different stuff going on. It

492
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 3: wasn't exactly the same experience, but it's been really healing

493
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: to kind of revisit that in what feels like a safe,

494
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: nurturing place and both hear each other.

495
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: You mentioned some struggles with relationships that have happened over

496
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: your life. Tell us a little bit about this relationship

497
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: history and what tends to happen and where you feel

498
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: things go wrong.

499
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 3: So I'll show you some pretty dubious partners in my twenties.

500
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: There were people who didn't really respond to my needs

501
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: or validate my feelings, some quite angry people. But if

502
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: I've tried to understand the kind of pattern, the sort

503
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: of picked relationships where I don't feel seen and stayed

504
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: in them quite a long time on some occasions.

505
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: So basically a revisit of your childhood.

506
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: Yes, So when did that any drop for you were

507
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: saying it quite clearly, Now, when did you have that

508
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: realization that you're replicating your childhood and choosing people that

509
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: weren't seeing you.

510
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: I left a long term relationship a couple of years ago,

511
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: and I had some psychotherapy after that, and that helped

512
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: me get a bit more understanding.

513
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: And do you see a change in who you select

514
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: these days? After that insight?

515
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: I do my standards are a lot higher. I want

516
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: to meet someone and have a family, so I have

517
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: a lot of worry around that sometimes that might never

518
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: happen for me. Time is sticking away. But I am

519
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 3: in a place now where, like I won't accept less

520
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: and that's good.

521
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: It is Are you also in a place where you

522
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: can feel that, maybe not right away, but with the

523
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: right person, that you can be vulnerable, that you can trust,

524
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: that you can give them a chance to see there

525
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: and be validating and supportive because you also have to

526
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: bring someone in enough to give them that opportunity. Are

527
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: you doing that?

528
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: I'm practicing. I'm definitely getting better. I've consciously tried to

529
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: be more vulnerable with people, you know, relatives, friends, romantic partners. Well,

530
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 3: I I'm making very good progress there, Like I'm really

531
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: working on it.

532
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: Is that what prompted you a couple of years ago

533
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: to finally, after all these years, tell your mom how

534
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: you felt about the way she characterizes you as the

535
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: resilient one.

536
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: Yes, I've been practicing speaking my truth. I've been practicing

537
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: talking about my needs, telling people, well, I'm not happy

538
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: And actually I sort of segued into that difficult conversation

539
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 3: with my mum or it came out sort of by accident,

540
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: but when it was happening, I really stayed with it,

541
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: And even though it's been pretty horrible at times out

542
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: of conversation, I felt really hurt. I was also really

543
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: proud of myself speaking minds and in reality, whether she

544
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: wanted to listen or.

545
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: Not, you said that your mom fell to pieces on

546
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,479
Speaker 1: the beach and sort of collapsed and you had to

547
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: contain her. Had something like that ever happened with her before?

548
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 3: Not as extreme as that? Now when I'm around her,

549
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 3: I think I've often felt like I'm walking on eggshells

550
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 3: and I had to kind of navigate a slight volatility,

551
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 3: but nothing like that before.

552
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: Can you just tell us a little bit about what

553
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: actually that looked like that conversation when she felt pieces

554
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: because people use that term, but what was actually happening

555
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: with her in that conversation.

556
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 3: She was crying, She was saying things like I thought

557
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 3: we loved each other. She was saying that she'd always

558
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: tried to be a good mother. I felt very poked.

559
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: She'd kept poking at it, and she would talk quite

560
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: defensively about why she couldn't have done better at what

561
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 3: was going on for her at the time.

562
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 2: In that conversation, she really experienced you sharing how you

563
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: feel as an attack on her as a big criticism

564
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: of her parenting. She had a really hard time hearing

565
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 2: you talking about how you feel without personalizing it as

566
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: an accusation, and and then she gets really defensive as

567
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: a result.

568
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was what was happening.

569
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: It sounds like she was so busy defending herself that

570
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: she didn't seem to be very curious about what you

571
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: were trying to tell her. And I think your message

572
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: was I was in a lot of pain as a

573
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: child and it has affected me as an adult, and

574
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: she could not sit with that with you.

575
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,919
Speaker 3: That's right. I expressed it as carefully as I could,

576
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 3: and I tried not to lay blame at her door.

577
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 3: I didn't really tell her, and I haven't told her

578
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: about what I've carried through into my adult life and

579
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 3: some of the problems I've had. I've always kind of

580
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: shielded her from that, I.

581
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: Suppose, And maybe you weren't just shielding her, but you

582
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: were shield you because not only have you experienced this pain,

583
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: but then you experience more pain when you try to

584
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: talk to her about this and she shuts you down

585
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: with her own defensiveness. Yes, so it's a painful experience

586
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: to go to her and tell her this. You're already

587
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: in pain, but then having the conversation brings on more pain.

588
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't bring relief, which is what we hope to

589
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: get from these conversations, connection, relief, understanding care.

590
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: I felt like it was actually doing more harm than good,

591
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 3: and that's why I kind of shut it down.

592
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: Right And in that conversation, she demonstrated once again why

593
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: you have a hard time trusting her, because she doesn't

594
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 2: hear them or address them. She just experiences you'll distress

595
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: as as criticism and then comes back at you.

596
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: What you've seen, as we said earlier, is that she's

597
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: not careful with your heart. And I think what you're

598
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: trying to do, and the reason that you wrote to

599
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: us is you're trying to be careful with your own heart.

600
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: You're trying to find a way to say, how can

601
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: I be careful with my heart and also have a

602
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: relationship with my mother? What would that look like?

603
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 3: That's exactly it.

604
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: So what does the relationship look like? Right now?

605
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: So I speak to her on the phone. We live

606
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: in different towns, I speak to her on the phone

607
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 3: maybe once or twice a week for a short phone call.

608
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: Who calls who?

609
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 3: I tend to call her. I've encouraged her to call me,

610
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: but she so she tiptoes around me a lot. She

611
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 3: seems to say, I don't want to bother you. I

612
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: don't want to bother you, Whereas I would like her

613
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: to call me, because then I'd feel like she was

614
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: taking an interest.

615
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 1: Talking to someone that you have a difficult relationship, once

616
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: or twice a week is frequent. What makes you want

617
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: to call her? What are you hoping to get from

618
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: those conversations? And are they nourishing in any way?

619
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 3: They're not nourishing. I think a sense of obligation is

620
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 3: a large part of that. I often feel quite rejected

621
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 3: during those phone calls, because she talks a lot about herself.

622
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: I should tell you anything and everything going on in

623
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: her life, and then she kind of ask me one

624
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: or two kind of standard questions, has work or what

625
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 3: are you doing today? I don't feel like she's present.

626
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: You said you call her out of a sense of obligation.

627
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: Does she have anyone in her life? Did she get remarried?

628
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 3: She did? She has a partner of about twenty years now.

629
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: She has a few friends.

630
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: Do you have any relationship at all with this person

631
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: or is this person more similar to your mother where

632
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: it's more superficial.

633
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: More superficial. He's a good guy, but he's a real

634
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 3: talker like my mother. I visited them at Christmas. I

635
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 3: wasn't sure whether to do it because I have a

636
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 3: difficult time there, but I did, and I realized between

637
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 3: the two of them, I'm left feeling sort of really

638
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 3: overwhelmed at how much they talk at me, and I

639
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 3: feel almost invisible.

640
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: Is your sister there at Christmas?

641
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: She has a partner and a baby now, so she

642
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: was there after Christmas for a couple of days.

643
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: You mentioned in your letter that your mom characterizes your

644
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: sister as the one who really struggled. Tell us a

645
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: little bit about why your mom believes that what she

646
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: was seeing with your sister that she wasn't seeing with you.

647
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 3: It's strangerly because I feel we've had a lot of

648
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 3: very similar issues and got very different treatment.

649
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: Your sister is the one who seems to have found

650
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: a healthy relationship and the family the things that you're wanting.

651
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: Does your mom notice that that maybe you are struggling

652
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: with some things that your sister is not.

653
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 3: No, I don't think she wants to see To give

654
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 3: you an example, you know, like I said earlier, I

655
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 3: would really like to meet someone and have a family

656
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 3: and feeling a lot of worry around that. And my

657
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 3: sisters had this baby. I'm very happy for her that,

658
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 3: you know, I'm feeling worried about myself. And I've heard

659
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 3: my mum say things like I'm so so relieved or

660
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 3: so happy to have a grandchild. And I just wonder

661
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 3: to she ever wonder about what my emotional experience is

662
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 3: at this time in my life, single in my late thirties,

663
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 3: wanting to meet someone. Does she wonder? Does she ever

664
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: think about it?

665
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: Does your sister know how worried you are about this

666
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: and how lonely it is not having a partner right now.

667
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 3: I've maybe touched on this with my sister. We haven't

668
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 3: gone very deep into it. Sort of want to respect

669
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: happiness with our own situation. God knows she deserves it.

670
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: Isn't it possible that this is both and that you

671
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: can be happy for your sister and also be feeling worried, lonely,

672
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: sad about the fact that you haven't found that yet.

673
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm aware that's possible for those two things to coexist.

674
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: One thing that you have to keep in mind is

675
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: that when so many people have failed you so consistently

676
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: over your life, it's very natural that even when you

677
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: do find someone that you trust, like your sister, and

678
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: you've prepared that relationship, and you still hold back a

679
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: little bit because fully trusting is still scary. And it's

680
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 2: also possible that you've been trained by your parents to

681
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: first think about the needs and feelings of the other

682
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: person before your own. So you're worried about, oh, she

683
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: might experience that as you're saying that you're envious or something.

684
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: And I think it's important with your sister, she's demonstrated

685
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 2: that she can be there and she can hear it.

686
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, none of that had occurred to me, And I

687
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 3: think you're right.

688
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: I want to go back to your mom. What is

689
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: it that you are hoping for in terms of your

690
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: relationship with your mom at this point in your lives.

691
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 3: That's the challenge that I'm struggling with because it's been

692
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 3: quite an intense couple of years where I've kind of

693
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 3: worked out what I was missing. I've been longing for

694
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 3: and what I perhaps feel like I was owed that

695
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: I didn't get. I don't know what to hope for.

696
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 3: I know i'd ideally want from a relationship with my mother,

697
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: but I don't know where to aim.

698
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: You said something in your letter that I thought was

699
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: really important. You said, should I even try to have

700
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: this kind of relationship with her? Given her limitations? I

701
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: thought that was a very important question, because I think

702
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: when I ask what is it that you want with

703
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,479
Speaker 1: your mother, where you go is what do I want

704
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: from the mother I should have had? So there's the

705
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: mother you have and the mother you wish you had,

706
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: and those are two different people, and you think you're

707
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: finally coming to terms with the fact that those might

708
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 1: be two different people. Some people spend their entire lives

709
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: trying to make the mother that they have into the

710
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: mother they wish they had, and they end up getting

711
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: repeatedly injured in every interaction because they leave feeling un

712
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: seen on, heard, invisible, not cared about, criticized, whatever it

713
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: might be, over and over again. And I wonder how

714
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: much grief work you've done around the fact that you

715
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: might be able to get some things that are nourishing

716
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: from your mom. If you're able to grieve the fact

717
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: that she is not the mom you wished for, there

718
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: might be things she can still offer you.

719
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 3: No, I haven't done any grief work, and I think

720
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 3: I'm in that exact place that you've just described, a

721
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 3: feeling frustrated expectations and feeling kind of bruised by every interaction. Almost.

722
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: It seems like with your father you were able to

723
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: say these are his limitations, but with your mother that's harder.

724
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: What is the difference for you in terms of the

725
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: way that you've sort of accepted that your father struggles

726
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: in the way that he does, but not really being

727
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: able to accept that yet about your mom.

728
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 3: He asks me questions about my life. He takes an interest.

729
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 3: He tells me he's proud of me for things that

730
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 3: are meaningful to me, like writing that I've done. I'm

731
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: trying to carve out a new career as a writer,

732
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 3: and he's made really nice comments about the things that

733
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 3: I've done on that front.

734
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: Does your mom know about this the writing?

735
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 3: Yes, and doesn't show the interest that would mean a

736
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 3: lot to me.

737
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: Has she seen anything that you've written?

738
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 3: Some things? I had a restaurant review in a magazine,

739
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 3: like a big national magazine. I was quite excited about that,

740
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 3: and my dad made a kind of big fuss about it,

741
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 3: and my mom said she'd read it. But when I

742
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: asked her later, what did you think of that bit

743
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 3: about you? Because I'd referenced her in this article, she

744
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 3: didn't seem to remember.

745
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: Tell us what that was like for you that moment

746
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: when you realized either she read it and didn't remember,

747
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: or she really never read it, And especially because it

748
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: was so personal it was something that you referenced about her,

749
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: I feel.

750
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 3: Like it touched a nerve and I've been in this

751
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 3: place before, or feeling like I really see you and

752
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: value you, my mother, And not only do you not

753
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 3: see invalidate me, but when I'm doing it for you,

754
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: so you seem to miss it.

755
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: There are numerous ways in which you're still getting bruised,

756
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 2: as you said, by your mom. If you're calling twice

757
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: a week, she doesn't really need to because she's being

758
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 2: pursued by you she likes, but every time you call

759
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 2: and she doesn't, you get a little bruised as well.

760
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: And so part of the problem currently with your mum

761
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: is not just that you're not sure what are the

762
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: terms of relationship you can have. But it's also that

763
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 2: you're still getting bruised at the same time.

764
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 3: That sounds spot on to me.

765
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: Earlier, you said that she does have some good qualities.

766
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about those.

767
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 3: She's had a career previously where she's been in psychiatric nursing.

768
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: She's really good at looking after I can't believe I'm

769
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 3: saying this. She can be very good at looking after

770
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 3: very vulnerable people in certain contexts.

771
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: What are the good qualities that she has that relate

772
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: to you?

773
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: Now I feel guilty having such a long pause.

774
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 1: Is this Why do you feel guilty?

775
00:46:54,520 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: Because I think she's fundamentally good person, and I feel

776
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: bad not immediately being able to identify how she's good

777
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 3: to me. I know she loves me, she's giving practical help.

778
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 3: You know, she was welcomes me into her home.

779
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: You know she loves you, because.

780
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 3: I don't know. She hasn't really used that word. It's

781
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 3: not really something we used in our family a lot.

782
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: But she's never said I love you.

783
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: She very rarely says I love you. I think she

784
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: might write it in a birthday card. Sometimes she tells

785
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 3: me she cares.

786
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: About me, and that's how she says it, I care

787
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: about you.

788
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 3: She expresses that she cares for me. So I'm struggling here.

789
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: And I see that. That's why I'm asking you these questions,

790
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 1: because you have this idea that somehow, and it's probably true,

791
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: that she loves you, but she has had great difficulty

792
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: communicating that to you and communicating it in a way

793
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: that feels loving. And so you're really scrounging here. I

794
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 1: love you in a birthday card rarely, Otherwise you're trying

795
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: to think of loving acts. You're saying, maybe she helped

796
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: you practically, which is a way of showing love as well.

797
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: And it's okay that you're being made aware in this

798
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: conversation and specifically with this question of what her limitations are,

799
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: so at the same time that we're looking at what

800
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: she has to offer, it's also good to be aware

801
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: of what she can't really offer, so that you don't get,

802
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: as you said, bruised every time you don't get those things.

803
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: And I think, Benny, that what makes it difficult and

804
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 2: confusing for you is that seemingly she seems to be

805
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: able to offer other people that which you wish she

806
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: would offer you, she is really concerned about your sister's

807
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 2: mental health. She has compassion for her patients who are

808
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: struggling and suffering, and so you see those things and

809
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: you go, Okay, well you have that. Why aren't I

810
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 2: getting any of it? And I think that's the confusing part.

811
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 3: That's very resonant. I think other people see her as

812
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 3: a very kind, compassionate person, you know, people love my mother,

813
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 3: and I think it was very confusing, and I think

814
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 3: for a long time I sort of felt like there

815
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 3: must be something without consciously thinking it, there must be

816
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 3: something wrong with me as the one not getting this.

817
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: Right, and that is very painful.

818
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea why your mom was more

819
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: able to see what was going on with your sister

820
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: and her pain and she has been able to see yours.

821
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think she was struggling herself. She

822
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 3: was in a lot of financial distress when she was

823
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 3: a single parent. She was worried about my sister. She

824
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 3: was looking after her ex husband when he was in

825
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 3: the depths of alcoholism in a very involved way, and

826
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 3: maybe they just was in space and she couldn't face it.

827
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: That was the sense I got, was, don't you dare

828
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 3: give me anything else to worry about.

829
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 2: And I think you heard that as a kid, and

830
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: I think you complied. That's part of the thing that

831
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 2: you are more resilient than your sister, that you don't

832
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: want to have that narrative because in the family it

833
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: got expressed. Well, if you are, then you have no

834
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 2: feelings that we have to worry about, which obviously it's

835
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 2: not the case. But I think you figured out really

836
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 2: really young that taking yourself to the psychiatrist at seventeen

837
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 2: by yourself, there's a real thread there with you of

838
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 2: I'll take care of myself. You don't have to because

839
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: I'm not getting it from you. And it's possible that

840
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: that's what she was picking up on as well. You

841
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,479
Speaker 2: seem more self sufficient. You seem more like a wind

842
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 2: up kid that you just let them loosen. They go.

843
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 2: Now where they go was to the partying and all

844
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 2: kinds of other distressing places. But I think that your

845
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: sister probably came across as needing much more than you

846
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: when you were younger.

847
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 3: That sounds right, And I am very self sufficient, you know,

848
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 3: I've been through a lot of really tough stuff and

849
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 3: done a lot of it.

850
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: Have you ever shared with her a vulnerability that wasn't

851
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 2: about the relationship, sought her advice about something that wasn't

852
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: about her, so she had clear runway to kind of

853
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 2: in that way.

854
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 3: When I'm feeling fragile. I've tended to avoid her for

855
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 3: all the reasons we've covered. I ask her advice about

856
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 3: low level stuff because I think it's a good way

857
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 3: to bond with someone asking their advice. So I might

858
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 3: talk to her about decorating.

859
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 2: For example, Okay, and how does she do that? So

860
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 2: she's happy to help. When it's about decorating, she's happy

861
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: to help.

862
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: Do you enjoy having that interaction with her? Or is

863
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: it more strategic I'm going to do this because it

864
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: gives us something to talk about. Or do you get

865
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: something out of it?

866
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 3: I don't get anything out of it emotionally necessarily, but

867
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 3: I derive some I guess enjoyment from the fact with

868
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 3: having a conversation that kind of is back and forth,

869
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: like a more normal conversation for me. She's not in

870
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 3: broadcast mode.

871
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: Can I ask what you think might happen if you

872
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: didn't call her twice a week. Would you feel lonelier?

873
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: Would you have to sit with your grief a little

874
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: bit more.

875
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 3: I have taken breaks from her at times. What has

876
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: it been like, honestly a relief. But the longer break

877
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: was after one of those very difficult conversations that kind

878
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 3: of went very badly.

879
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: And then did you end up calling her to re

880
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,240
Speaker 1: establish contact or how did that happen?

881
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 3: We reestablished contact because I had some health problems and

882
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 3: she had VI in my sister, and I felt like

883
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 3: it was the time to kind of let her back

884
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: in because she was worried about me, and it was

885
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 3: nice to have her interest and concern. Actually, but I

886
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 3: do sometimes because I'm busy and because I think, let's

887
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: see what happened, and so I don't call her that

888
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 3: regularly all the time. I sometimes leave it and I

889
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 3: just see, let's see if she makes an effort.

890
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 2: And picks up the phone.

891
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:14,919
Speaker 3: She tends to send me a message and say when

892
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 3: can we talk Melanie, And I tend to feel frustrated

893
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 3: because I want to have the kind of relationship with

894
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 3: my mother where we don't need to schedule times to

895
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 3: call each other. And I'm they're thinking, oh, we're close

896
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 3: enough that you can just pick up the phone if

897
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 3: it's a bad time. I'll just say it's a bad time.

898
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 3: I tried to say these kinds of things, so but

899
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 3: she will do the same thing every time. Which is

900
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 3: this very cautious text.

901
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: Message You've actually told her, I would love for you

902
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: to just call me when you feel like calling me.

903
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 3: I maybe haven't said that I would love it. I've

904
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 3: said you can, And maybe that's an important difference it is.

905
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what is it that you want at

906
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 1: this point from the mother that you have that would

907
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: feel good or nourishing. It might not be what you

908
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: had hoped for all these years, but she still is there,

909
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: and it sounds like there are some aspects of being

910
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: in contact with her that could potentially feel good to you.

911
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 1: What do you think those are?

912
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 3: I would say just a little bit more of her

913
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 3: attention when I'm with her. I don't expect like a

914
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 3: total change of personality, but just a little bit more presence.

915
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 3: If I make the effort to go and visit her,

916
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 3: which is a day's travel, I'm there because I want

917
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 3: to connect with her, and if she could just stay

918
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 3: with me for a little bit longer and have a

919
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 3: conversation and not be flapping around the house doing sure

920
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 3: is doing Sometimes it feels like doing anything else other

921
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 3: than sitting and catching up with me.

922
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: What if there's not a change in her but a

923
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: change in you.

924
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: That is where I get stuck because that just isn't

925
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,959
Speaker 3: a meaningful relationship to me. I don't seek out those

926
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 3: kinds of friendships, but there's not connection.

927
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 1: Well, I think when we talk about meaningful one thing

928
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: that has been missing has been authenticity. That you haven't

929
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: been able to show up with the truth of who

930
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: you are, and when you do, she falls to pieces.

931
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: That's seen on the beach. But what if you showed

932
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: up authentically and there was a change in you, not

933
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: expecting anything to happen differently with her, so that if

934
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: she falls to pieces, you don't have to put her

935
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: back together. What if you became more confident in your

936
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 1: truth because you're doing that with your sister, it sounds

937
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: like you're doing that in the relationships that you're pursuing

938
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: now that that becomes your mode of being in the world,

939
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: and that with your mom. You're not expecting her to

940
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: have a personality transplant, but you're showing up differently knowing

941
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: that she might or might not be capable of doing

942
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: something different. But that you're not depending on it. What

943
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: you are depending on is that you're going to do

944
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: something different, That all of these patterns that you still

945
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: have around her you're not going to uphold anymore because

946
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: they're not nourishing for you to be that way, to

947
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: be inauthentic, to hold back, to be invisible, That you're

948
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: not going to be invisible anymore, and she can do

949
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: without whatever she will, but you're not responsible for her feelings.

950
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: That your visibility you've focused on her.

951
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 3: That sounds like something I would want to aim for.

952
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 3: I find when I'm in her home particularly, it's such

953
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 3: a knee jerk reaction with me that I feel like

954
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 3: I can't control it. I feel rejected and I withdraw.

955
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: What happens when just you and her? If that happens,

956
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 2: go out for coffee, so she's sitting down, she can't

957
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 2: start busying herself with other things. She's sitting down facing

958
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: you for a chat. Does that ever happen? Do you

959
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 2: get more of attention when it does? If you do

960
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 2: that rather than sit in her house where she can

961
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 2: find a thousand things to busy yourself with.

962
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 3: It is better. And for that reason, I've tried to

963
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 3: reduce the number of times I'm visiting her and encourage

964
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 3: her to come and visit me and then go for

965
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 3: coffees and meals and things in it is better. She

966
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 3: visited me a while ago and we had just really

967
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 3: horrible conversation, but before that we'd gone to this museum

968
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 3: that was a lot of fun and you know, we

969
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 3: were laughing.

970
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: So you can have fun with her.

971
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 3: I can have fun with her.

972
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: So, Melanie, we have some advice for you, and we're

973
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: going to start off with your mom. One thing that

974
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: we talked about today was not about changing her, but

975
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: about changing you and how you react to her. And

976
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: one of the things that you've struggled with your whole

977
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: life has been showing up authentically because either you would

978
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: get hurt because you would get ignored, the subject would change,

979
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: you wouldn't get paid attention to, you would get a

980
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: factual question instead of an experience or feelings question, or

981
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: more recently, your mom would fall to pieces or get defensive.

982
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: All of those things might still happen, but we want

983
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: you to show up authentically anyway, because you get hurt

984
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: by not showing up. So you're already getting hurt, and

985
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: I know you're trying to protect yourself, but in protecting yourself,

986
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: you're actually doing the hurting. Because it's not protective. You

987
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: then feel lonely, abandoned all of those feelings. So we

988
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: want you to be able to just be yourself. And

989
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're able to do that more with

990
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: your sister, but we want you to do that with

991
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: your mom as well. And part of that is going

992
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: to involve when your mom says, how's work, you can

993
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: tell her how work is, and you can say and

994
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 1: I'm also trying to date and I'm feeling really lonely

995
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of worried about whether I'm going to

996
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 1: meet someone. And if she changes the subject, you can say, hey, Mom,

997
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: I really wish that I could talk to you about this.

998
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: When she texts you and says when can we talk,

999
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: you can actually say to her. We talked about this

1000
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: distinction today, about the difference between you can call me anytime,

1001
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 1: and I would really like it if you would just

1002
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: call me. That would feel really good. I would love

1003
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: to hear from you. I would love to know that

1004
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: you're thinking about me. So all of these things that

1005
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: you're not saying, we would like you to say, and

1006
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: not worry about whether she's going to get defensive or

1007
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: not respond in a way that feels nourishing to you,

1008
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,439
Speaker 1: or she's going to fall to pieces. If she does

1009
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: fall to pieces, you can say, hey, Mom, it sounds

1010
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: like you're not able to really talk about this right now,

1011
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: so let's talk another time. And then you go take

1012
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 1: a walk, you do yoga, you breathe, you call a friend,

1013
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: you do whatever feels nourishing to you, without worrying about

1014
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 1: my mom's falling to pieces and I didn't put her

1015
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: back together. So we want you to try that in

1016
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: your interactions with her this week. We want you to

1017
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: be different, not expecting anything. And then here's the other part.

1018
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: While you're doing that, we want you to notice any

1019
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: moments of joy or even just fun that come up.

1020
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: So with your dad, it was really nice when he

1021
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: could join with you around your writing, even though you

1022
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: have no expectations that he's going to connect with you

1023
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: emotionally in the ways that you wish that he would.

1024
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: With your mom, even with that example where you said

1025
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 1: at the museum you had fun. Whatever it is where

1026
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 1: there are these moments where there is something that feels good,

1027
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: where I feel like I'm glad that I'm talking to

1028
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: my mom. We want you to notice them, and we

1029
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 1: want you to write them down, and we want you

1030
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 1: to keep a journal. We just want you to start

1031
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: looking for those a little bit more, and we think

1032
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: you're going to see them a little bit more when

1033
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: you're not being disappointed by her reaction. And to be clear,

1034
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: you're always going to be disappointed by it. It's always

1035
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,959
Speaker 1: going to hurt, but it won't feel as sharp when

1036
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: you are showing up from the adult place as opposed

1037
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: to the wounded child place. And along with that, we

1038
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: would like you to do some grief work, because you're

1039
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 1: going to have to contend with the fact that your

1040
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: mom is who she is and that you did not

1041
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: get and probably will not get the kind of mothering

1042
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: that you would have hoped for. There are groups for

1043
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: this kind of loss. You can find them and maybe

1044
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: join with other people who have had similar experiences, so

1045
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: that you can really kind of let go of those

1046
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: expectations by grieving it, not by shutting it down or

1047
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: compartmentalizing it, which is what you've done, or drugs that

1048
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: you used to do, or the not eating all the

1049
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 1: ways that you tried to deal with it. We want

1050
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: you to deal with it head on by really going

1051
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: into that sadness and that grief so that you're able

1052
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 1: to let it go more gently.

1053
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 2: Two other quick parts. Number one, with your sister, we

1054
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: would like you to have a chat with her this week,

1055
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 2: and you're feeling stressed about being able to find someone,

1056
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 2: and you really want to find someone and kind of

1057
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 2: share that with her. We think that you've gotten so

1058
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 2: much closer and there's still a little bit more closeness

1059
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 2: that you can have with her, because even with her,

1060
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 2: you're holding back a bit that again that habit from

1061
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 2: childhood of I can manage me. I don't have to

1062
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 2: mean on anyone that there's still some more to unwind

1063
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 2: there With your sister, so she knows how you feel,

1064
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 2: and maybe she realizes that, but it's different for you

1065
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 2: to be able to say it and for her to

1066
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 2: be able to hear it and respond hopefully in a

1067
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 2: compassionate way. The last thing we'd like you to do.

1068
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 2: We'd like you to do because we think it would

1069
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 2: be really good if you could find other women, even

1070
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 2: maybe slightly older women, who you could have friendships with

1071
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 2: and get that experience, the one that you really never

1072
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 2: had quite with your mom, and we think one of

1073
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 2: the best ways for you to do that is to

1074
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 2: find and join a women's writing group. You're trying to

1075
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: become a writer. Writers need that support regardless, and get

1076
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: to know the people in the group because people do

1077
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 2: get friendly and close in a group. Your writing is

1078
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 2: often very personal and you're sharing personal things, so would

1079
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 2: like you to do that as well to validate the

1080
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 2: new endeavor and to perhaps create the possibility of new

1081
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 2: relationships of people that you can show up to authentically.

1082
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 3: It's a really nice idea.

1083
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 2: I can do that, and remember the bar for success

1084
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 2: is you showing up authentically, not how your mom responds,

1085
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 2: just how you do.

1086
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 1: We want you to treat yourself the way that you

1087
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: were not treated growing up. We want you to treat

1088
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: yourself with openness and compassion and kindness and authenticity. The

1089
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 1: more you treat yourself that way, the more that's going

1090
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: to be the people that you surround yourself with. And

1091
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 1: if you can do it with your mom without the expectations,

1092
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: you will be able to do it with other people

1093
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 1: where there are expectations and they do meet them.

1094
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 3: That makes sense.

1095
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 2: We really look forward to hearing how this goes for

1096
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 2: you and how it feels to you to show up authentically.

1097
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 3: Thank you, and thank you guys very much for your advice.

1098
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 2: What I thought was really impressive about Melanie is that

1099
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: she has already started this journey a couple of years

1100
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: ago and has already made significant progress. She's challenging herself

1101
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 2: in all kinds of ways, she's trying to set standards

1102
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 2: in her dating, and she's really trying to recover from

1103
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,080
Speaker 2: this very, very difficult childhood and that I think the

1104
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 2: missing piece has been so far this relationship with her mother.

1105
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 2: So I'm really hopeful that this helps her because I

1106
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 2: think she's been working on herself in all kinds of ways,

1107
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 2: and I think this would really be the last piece

1108
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 2: that she needs to really start tackling.

1109
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 3: Right.

1110
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 1: And when you say the relationship with her mother, I

1111
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 1: think what we're both talking about is really her relationship

1112
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 1: with herself. Being able to grieve the relationship with the

1113
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 1: mother and be able to be there for herself in

1114
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: a way that her mother is not able to be

1115
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: there for her, and then to also free herself up

1116
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 1: to enjoy the aspects of that relationship so that she

1117
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: does get something from that relationship, but she'll get the

1118
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: much deeper nourishment from her other relationships that we are

1119
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 1: encouraging her to pursue as well.

1120
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 2: You're listening to THEO therapists. We'll be back after a

1121
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 2: short break.

1122
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: So we heard back from Melanie and here's what happened

1123
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 1: with her this week.

1124
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,879
Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie and Guy. So I have a quick update

1125
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 4: for you. I will just start writing with the authenticity

1126
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 4: because that felt like the most important aspect of it

1127
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 4: to me. I had a call with my sister and

1128
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 4: I guess I kind of warmed up by sharing some

1129
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 4: of my emotional experience around health problems I've had recently,

1130
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:52,679
Speaker 4: which have been very stressful and times I've been quite

1131
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 4: upset and worried, and I think normally I realized I

1132
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:00,840
Speaker 4: would really kind of gloss over this, and I didn't,

1133
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 4: and I shared it. And I also told her about

1134
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 4: the loneliness thing and worrying about whether I'll meet someone

1135
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 4: again for a relationship. So that felt good, and in response,

1136
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 4: she opened up a bit more to me in that core.

1137
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 4: So I wanted to say thank you for bringing that

1138
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 4: to my attention that relationship could be further improved, because

1139
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 4: it's really important to me. I've also been working on

1140
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:35,639
Speaker 4: it with my mum. I had a call with her

1141
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 4: and I also shared this thing about feeling lonely and

1142
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 4: increasingly lonely over the last year and wanting to meet someone,

1143
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 4: and she said some things that were pretty comforting. Actually

1144
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 4: they were fairly generic things, but it's the kind of

1145
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:55,600
Speaker 4: thing I like to hear on this issue, so that

1146
01:09:55,800 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 4: was good too. Again, I've noticed on being more tack

1147
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 4: in other areas. So today, for example, I initiated a

1148
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 4: difficult conversation with my manager at work that i'd been

1149
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 4: putting off for a while. And there is something I'm

1150
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 4: thinking about with my dad as well. He's supposed to

1151
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 4: be visiting me when I go to Europe for a

1152
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 4: couple of months next week, and I've just had it

1153
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:27,679
Speaker 4: in my head that I really don't like being around

1154
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 4: him when he's drinking. He can get a bit melancholy

1155
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 4: and I don't like it. I mean, I'm not sure

1156
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 4: I'm going to actually say anything to him, but I've

1157
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 4: just said to myself, I'm not going to pretend to

1158
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 4: enjoy that anymore, and I'm not going to kind of

1159
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 4: sit around and watch it. And I think that is

1160
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 4: more authentic. So I think I feel good. I feel

1161
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 4: more optimistic, and I'm going to keep going. The grief

1162
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 4: work and the women's group. I'm just going to put

1163
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 4: on hold for a couple of months while I have

1164
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 4: this nice trip to Italy, but I I've looked at

1165
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 4: groups and I will schedule that for when i'm back.

1166
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 4: Thank you. I really am so grateful for the time

1167
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 4: that you gave me under your advice.

1168
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 1: What struck me about Melanie is that she's wanted for

1169
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:23,360
Speaker 1: so long to have an authentic relationship with the people

1170
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 1: in her family, and within the span of a week,

1171
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 1: she took some great risks and actually got some great

1172
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,679
Speaker 1: reward for taking those risks. I agree.

1173
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 2: And the fact that she generalized our advice to do

1174
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:44,360
Speaker 2: that at work as well just shows how much you

1175
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 2: really got that. I do hope she speaks up though,

1176
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 2: to her dad when she's on holiday and when he's

1177
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 2: there and if he's drinking. She has the awareness right now,

1178
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 2: she says, I don't have to be present for it,

1179
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 2: but I really hope she'll find the gumption to voice something,

1180
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 2: because I think that would be very much in line

1181
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 2: with what we're asking her to do.

1182
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you could hear there's some kind of shift

1183
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 1: going on inside of her. You can hear it in

1184
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 1: the way that she talked about these experiences. I love

1185
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 1: that her sister opened up to her as well, when

1186
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: she opened up to her sister, and I like too

1187
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 1: that she got some comfort from her mom. Maybe it

1188
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: isn't the perfect response, but it did offer her some comfort,

1189
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 1: and again it was a first conversation. There's so much

1190
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 1: room for this to grow. When she shows up as

1191
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 1: her true self, it gives her so much more power

1192
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 1: and so much more flexibility in all of these relationships.

1193
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 1: So I agree with you. I hope she does this

1194
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 1: with her father as well. And I do hope that

1195
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:50,639
Speaker 1: she joins a writing group with women, because I think

1196
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,400
Speaker 1: that that will give her even more places to practice

1197
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 1: this authenticity and to do something that feels authentic to her,

1198
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 1: which is writing. So for a weeks of science, I

1199
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,640
Speaker 1: think she did magnificently and I think that she is

1200
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:10,759
Speaker 1: on the path to do so much more. Next week,

1201
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: we're in session with Anna and Chris, a young married

1202
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 1: couple who came to us after Anna, who was pregnant

1203
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: with their first child, discovered that Chris had been lying

1204
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 1: to her.

1205
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 5: Well, they see tons and tons of messages to this

1206
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 5: worker being asking things.

1207
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:25,559
Speaker 3: Like hellis your day?

1208
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 5: Wow? Yes, it was platonic technically for me, it was

1209
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 5: still hurtful because it felt like there is some sort

1210
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 5: of emotional void being filled by talking to her.

1211
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1212
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:43,679
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

1213
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

1214
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1215
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1216
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1217
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:59,600
Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1218
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 2: Executive producer is Noel Brown. We are produced and edited

1219
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:08,759
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John

1220
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:13,799
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

1221
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast

1222
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you

1223
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deotherrapist is a production of iHeartRadio