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Speaker 1: Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we

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Speaker 1: have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember were there.

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Speaker 1: Therapy is like that too. There are so many learning

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Speaker 1: moments in a session and it's difficult to absorb them

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Speaker 1: all at once. So while we're not taping new episodes

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Speaker 1: right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions

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Speaker 1: as encores so that you can continue to gain value

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Speaker 1: from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects and that we hope you

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Speaker 2: will love just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks

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Speaker 2: Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster.

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Speaker 2: You can find out more about it on my website, guywench.com.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.

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Speaker 1: And I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid.

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Speaker 2: And I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week, we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman with a difficult mother wonders if there's a

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Speaker 2: way to interact with her that won't cause so much pain.

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Speaker 3: She was saying that she'd always tried to be a

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Speaker 3: good mother. I felt very poked. She kept poking at

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Speaker 3: it and she would talk. quite defensively about why she

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Speaker 3: couldn't have done better, what was going on for her

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Speaker 3: at the time.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: use it in part or in full, and we may

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Speaker 1: edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Lori.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Guy.

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Speaker 2: So what do we have in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 1: Today we have a letter from a woman who has

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Speaker 1: a difficult relationship with her mother, and it goes like this.

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist, I am writing for help with my relationship

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Speaker 1: with my mother. Since I stopped drinking a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, I have felt a lot of resentment when

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Speaker 1: I'm around her. This came as a surprise to me.

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Speaker 1: I want a relationship with her, But I've come to

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Speaker 1: think that the low self-esteem I struggled with throughout my 20s,

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Speaker 1: which led to a pattern of numbing with alcohol, was

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Speaker 1: the result of having two emotionally neglectful parents, a depressed

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Speaker 1: and alcoholic father who was often absent, and a physically

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Speaker 1: present but narcissistic mother. I learned that my feelings didn't matter,

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Speaker 1: and I've carried that into adult life. When I am

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Speaker 1: around my mother, I feel like she takes up all

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Speaker 1: of the space and oxygen. What hurts most is that

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Speaker 1: she rarely asks me anything about myself except one or

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Speaker 1: two token questions, and she changes the subject back to

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Speaker 1: her rapidly. She is also very defensive about any feedback

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Speaker 1: or even the most minor hint of criticism. Things became

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Speaker 1: very strained between us about two years ago when I

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Speaker 1: accidentally opened a can of worms. My mom for many

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Speaker 1: years has worried obsessively about my older sister, who has

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Speaker 1: various emotional difficulties and has genuinely struggled with life. Not

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Speaker 1: that I haven't. But my mom has a narrative of

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Speaker 1: me being, quote, the strong one. And she says this

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Speaker 1: to me directly. Things like, Claire struggles, but you've always

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Speaker 1: been much more resilient. I find this incredibly painful because

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Speaker 1: this isn't how I see myself and because I feel

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Speaker 1: she's used this narrative as a reason not to give

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Speaker 1: me support. This included the period in my late teens

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Speaker 1: when I was self-medicating with party drugs, skipping college due

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Speaker 1: to lack of motivation, and clearly had developed an eating disorder,

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Speaker 1: but I can't remember any adult in my family ever

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Speaker 1: asking if I was okay. I remember my mom yelling

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Speaker 1: at me for skipping college, and when she found my antidepressants,

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Speaker 1: she said, you don't need to be on those. Finally,

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, I ended up telling her

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Speaker 1: that I didn't like her casting me as the resilient one,

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Speaker 1: and she got very defensive and then went to pieces,

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Speaker 1: In the end, collapsing on the beach and saying she

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Speaker 1: thought we loved each other. Again, it seemed to be

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Speaker 1: about her. I took a break from her for a

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Speaker 1: few months, but when she visited me months later, we

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Speaker 1: segued back into this conversation and it became very heated.

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Speaker 1: She went to pieces again and I ended up looking

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Speaker 1: after her. I'm trying to see the best in my mother,

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Speaker 1: but I grapple with questions of whether I should ever

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Speaker 1: ask her to do anything differently. Is there any point

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Speaker 1: given her history of defensiveness and poor listening and communication skills?

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Speaker 1: I would really appreciate your advice. I feel so stuck. Melanie.

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Speaker 2: Well, I really feel for Melanie because it sounds like

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Speaker 2: she's in a lot of pain about this relationship and

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Speaker 2: obviously has been since her childhood. And from what she's describing,

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Speaker 2: her mother certainly has limitations. And it sounds like Melanie

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Speaker 2: is having a hard time accepting what those are and

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Speaker 2: navigating around them. She, I think, keeps hoping her mother

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Speaker 2: will show up for her in a way her mother

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Speaker 2: never really has. And so she's really stuck in this

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Speaker 2: limbo of wanting a relationship with her mom that she

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Speaker 2: can't have. And at the same time, perhaps having trouble

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Speaker 2: exploring what relationship with her mother she could have. And

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Speaker 2: that's where she's stuck right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we see this so much where people come in

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Speaker 1: and they're really in pain over the relationships with one

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Speaker 1: or both parents. And they want to have a relationship

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Speaker 1: with that parent, but what they're really not clear on is,

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Speaker 1: do I want a relationship with this parent given this

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Speaker 1: parent's limitations? And what would that look like versus still

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Speaker 1: having that childhood fantasy of, I want a relationship with

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Speaker 1: the kind of parent that I deserve to have. So

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Speaker 1: let's go talk to her and learn more about this relationship.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Melanie.

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Speaker 3: Hi there.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: You're very welcome. We wanted to start with this question.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about what it was like

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Speaker 2: growing up with your mum.

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Speaker 3: I would say that we were loved as kids, me

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Speaker 3: and my sister. You know, we did nice activities. We

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Speaker 3: saw friends. We went on outings. We had all our

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Speaker 3: sort of practical needs met. We had Christmas presents. We

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Speaker 3: had some holidays. So things were quite good in ways.

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Speaker 3: But looking back, I feel like My mum has never

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Speaker 3: really been sort of present mentally. And even now, I

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Speaker 3: never feel like she's really fully present with me. I

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Speaker 3: also feel like we didn't get enough validation of our emotions.

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Speaker 3: So I feel like what I was really missing was

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Speaker 3: that kind of calm, attentive presence. and like the nourishing

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Speaker 3: parental influence.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember moments from your childhood in which that

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Speaker 2: was absent?

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Speaker 3: I can remember being really little, like five or six maybe,

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Speaker 3: and my mum walking me home from school every day.

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Speaker 3: And every day she'd ask, what did you do at

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Speaker 3: school today? And I remember that every day I'd say nothing.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is strange to have that... awareness

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Speaker 3: of what was going on for me at such a

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Speaker 3: young age. But I think what it was, was like,

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Speaker 3: I never really felt like she was interested. I felt

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Speaker 3: it was a standard issue question. So I'd always say

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Speaker 3: nothing because I didn't really feel like she was listening.

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Speaker 1: Did you wish that she had asked something else? Or

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Speaker 1: did you just feel like if I answer, she's not

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Speaker 1: going to be paying attention?

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Speaker 3: I think it was more the latter. Yeah. As I've

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Speaker 3: got older, I've definitely wanted her to ask different questions. And,

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Speaker 3: you know, the kinds of questions I would ask friends,

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Speaker 3: for example, I wouldn't just say, how was work? And

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Speaker 3: then move on. I'd say, you know, like, how was work?

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Speaker 3: You said you were having a rough time lately, or

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Speaker 3: how's that new manager working out? So I've always felt

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Speaker 3: like the questions are kind of standard issues. She doesn't

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Speaker 3: really listen to what you say and then she's kind

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Speaker 3: of moved on.

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Speaker 1: Where does she move to when she moves on? Is

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Speaker 1: it about her? Is it about small talk? Where does

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Speaker 1: she go?

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Speaker 3: She often moves on to her. She'll bring things back

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Speaker 3: to her own life, her own experience quite consistently.

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Speaker 2: Do you have recollections from your adolescence of moments in

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Speaker 2: which this dynamic happened where she wasn't quite present or

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Speaker 2: she seemed to be asking the question, but the substance

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Speaker 2: was lacking for you?

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Speaker 3: I do. There was a particularly difficult time in my

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Speaker 3: late teens when my mental health was going downhill. She

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Speaker 3: would kind of demand factual information from me. She didn't

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Speaker 3: really ask what what's going on for you? Is everything

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Speaker 3: okay for you? How are you feeling? I would be asked,

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Speaker 3: why are you seeing that therapist? You know, what kind

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Speaker 3: of anxiety do you have? And it felt at that time,

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Speaker 3: and it has at other times felt like a sort

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Speaker 3: of bombardment of questions. as opposed to like, I'm here,

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Speaker 3: I'm listening, you know, asking more open questions of the

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Speaker 3: kind I would like someone to do when I'm feeling fragile.

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Speaker 1: I think that goes back to being five years old

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Speaker 1: and leaving school. And instead of saying, how are you?

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Speaker 1: She said, what did you do today? Those are very

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Speaker 1: different questions. And that wouldn't be a big deal if

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Speaker 1: She meant it in that way, but it sounds like

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Speaker 1: she did not mean it in that way. She wasn't

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Speaker 1: looking to really hear how you were. And I think

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Speaker 1: that when you were struggling and you were trying to

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Speaker 1: get help in your teens, there again wasn't that question

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Speaker 1: of what's going on. Talk to me. I'm here. How

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Speaker 1: can I help?

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Speaker 2: May I ask, Melanie, if you were seeing a therapist

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Speaker 2: and taking medication in your teens and your mother was

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Speaker 2: against it, then how did you get hooked up with

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Speaker 2: a therapist and a psychiatrist?

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Speaker 3: I went to my doctor.

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Speaker 2: At how old?

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Speaker 3: 17. I went to the GP. I was referred to psychiatry.

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Speaker 2: But I'm sorry, Melanie, usually at 17, it goes through

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Speaker 2: a parent. You just initiated this yourself. I think there's

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Speaker 2: something wrong. I'm going to contact my GP and not

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Speaker 2: even tell my parents about it.

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Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't really feel I had an adult

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Speaker 3: who would be there for me. Hmm. I felt very

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Speaker 3: alone with it. And I think I was, I was alone.

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Speaker 1: You said that your father was largely absent. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about him as well? So

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Speaker 1: we understand the context in which you ended up going

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Speaker 1: to the doctor alone.

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Speaker 3: My parents divorced when I was 12 and it was

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Speaker 3: very messy. And he lived in the same town as

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Speaker 3: us when I was 17, but I could go long

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Speaker 3: periods without seeing him. And in the years running up

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Speaker 3: to that age, and for some years after, he had

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Speaker 3: long periods of serious alcoholism. He wasn't really there a

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Speaker 3: lot of the time.

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Speaker 1: Did you see that in the house before they divorced?

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Speaker 1: Did you see him drinking and checking out?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. After my mum left him, he kind of

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Speaker 3: deteriorated quite quickly. We were still living with him, but

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Speaker 3: he was off work. with depression. He was drinking a lot.

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Speaker 3: He was kind of leaning on me and my sister

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Speaker 3: emotionally as like a 12-year-old and 15-year-old. So that was

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Speaker 3: very difficult.

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Speaker 1: Was the reason that your mom left him because he

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Speaker 1: was drinking and not doing anything about it?

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Speaker 3: I think she left him because he was just not

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Speaker 3: being a present partner, not pulling his weight around the house.

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Speaker 3: And really they're just quite badly matched that's quite obvious

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Speaker 3: with 20 years of hindsight.

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Speaker 2: How did you feel about them separating when you were 12?

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Speaker 2: Do you remember how they told you?

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Speaker 3: My mum had told me she was going to leave

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Speaker 3: a couple of years before she did and then I

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Speaker 3: think she tried to stick it out. I don't think

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Speaker 3: I was that bothered by the separation itself I think

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Speaker 3: it was all the stuff around it So how it

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Speaker 3: was handled, the fallout, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: What did the fallout look like?

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Speaker 3: So my dad deteriorated and was drinking a lot and

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Speaker 3: not looking after the house. He was spying on my mum.

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Speaker 3: He had her followed by a detective at one point.

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Speaker 3: It was a very weird situation. They were living next

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Speaker 3: door to each other because my mum owned the house

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Speaker 3: next door. She'd previously rented it out for money. And

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Speaker 3: in the absence of like many other options, she just

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Speaker 3: sort of moved in there. I felt very kind of

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Speaker 3: self-conscious about this strange situation at home. My dad was

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Speaker 3: a mess. We were probably exposed to a lot of

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Speaker 3: stuff with him that we weren't capable of dealing with.

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Speaker 3: It didn't really feel like there was anyone asking us

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Speaker 3: how we were doing.

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Speaker 2: You say you were exposed to things that you're not

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Speaker 2: supposed to be exposed to. Can you give us an example?

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Speaker 3: Just his sort of letting it all hang out emotionally.

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Speaker 3: My mum was dating someone new and he'd say, what

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Speaker 3: has he got that I haven't got? And he would

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Speaker 3: say to me how lonely he was. And there was

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Speaker 3: a time when he was saying to me he was

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Speaker 3: so lonely and he really found it hard going to

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Speaker 3: bed and being alone in bed and all. I offered

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Speaker 3: to stay in bed with him to ease his loneliness.

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Speaker 3: And I did. I didn't really want to because I

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Speaker 3: was 12. I didn't want to share a bed with

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Speaker 3: my dad. But, you know, I wanted him to feel better.

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Speaker 3: It was a horrible environment.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to your mom about what was

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Speaker 1: going on with your dad? The things where he was

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Speaker 1: asking you for company in ways that weren't appropriate, that

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Speaker 1: he was telling you things about his personal struggles that

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Speaker 1: weren't appropriate?

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Speaker 3: I think I told her some of it, and I

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00:16:48,829 --> 00:16:52,629
Speaker 3: think she actually directly observed some of it and was

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Speaker 3: quite critical of that.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of protecting you from all of this,

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Speaker 1: can you remember at all what maybe even one of

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Speaker 1: those conversations might have been like?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: Do you recall, though, how you felt at that time?

291
00:17:10,679 --> 00:17:13,259
Speaker 2: Were you angry? Did you blame one or the other?

292
00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:16,939
Speaker 2: Were you talking with friends? Where were things at emotionally

293
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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 3: I think I felt worried about my dad and at

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Speaker 3: times I was trying to be there for him. And

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Speaker 3: at other times I just found it so horrendous. I

297
00:17:30,849 --> 00:17:32,789
Speaker 3: didn't want to look at it. And then I would,

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Speaker 3: you know, try and spend more time away from him

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Speaker 3: and I'd feel guilty about that.

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Speaker 1: Where was your sister in all of this? You mentioned

301
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Speaker 1: that she's three years older and that your mom does

302
00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:47,079
Speaker 1: recognize that she struggled from the fallout of all of

303
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Speaker 1: this so what was going on between the two of

304
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Speaker 1: you did you support each other did your mom listen

305
00:17:53,159 --> 00:17:56,829
Speaker 1: to her a little bit more we were.

306
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Speaker 3: Not close at that time and not for many years

307
00:18:01,269 --> 00:18:05,069
Speaker 3: afterwards actually we were quite mean to each other she

308
00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:07,729
Speaker 3: kind of scrambled much more than me to go into

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00:18:07,769 --> 00:18:11,189
Speaker 3: looking after dad and felt very very protective of him

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Speaker 3: And looking back, I think I saw that she was

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Speaker 3: a bit more angry with my mum. We're very close

312
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Speaker 3: now and I have like a great ally in her.

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Speaker 3: I'm very grateful that we've improved our relationship. But I

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00:18:24,729 --> 00:18:28,269
Speaker 3: don't think she was getting much input from my mum

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Speaker 3: at that time either.

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Speaker 2: Was there anyone at the time who knew that you

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Speaker 2: were really struggling? Because I want to point out, Melanie,

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Speaker 2: when we ask you how you felt, you almost each

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00:18:39,469 --> 00:18:42,639
Speaker 2: time first responded about how you're mom or your dad

320
00:18:42,679 --> 00:18:45,279
Speaker 2: felt before you could talk about how you felt. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's probably representative of what was going on.

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Speaker 2: But was there anyone who asked who you approached and

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Speaker 2: talked about how you felt?

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00:18:55,709 --> 00:18:56,989
Speaker 3: No, there wasn't anyone.

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Speaker 1: What happened when you were 17 and you went to

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Speaker 1: go see the doctor and you were referred to a psychiatrist?

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00:19:05,949 --> 00:19:08,089
Speaker 1: You told the doctor a little bit about what was

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00:19:08,129 --> 00:19:08,469
Speaker 1: going on?

329
00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:14,319
Speaker 3: I didn't tell the doctor about any family circumstances. I

330
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,659
Speaker 3: mainly talked about my sort of mental health symptoms. She

331
00:19:18,739 --> 00:19:22,259
Speaker 3: referred me to psychiatry and they did a proper assessment.

332
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Speaker 3: They put me on antidepressants and they referred me for

333
00:19:26,959 --> 00:19:32,739
Speaker 3: cognitive behavioural therapy. I quit after a few sessions because

334
00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:36,939
Speaker 3: I was aware, I didn't pursue it, but I think

335
00:19:36,999 --> 00:19:40,999
Speaker 3: what I really needed at that particular time was just

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00:19:41,179 --> 00:19:45,049
Speaker 3: an adult to take an interest. We weren't talking about

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00:19:45,069 --> 00:19:47,709
Speaker 3: what was going on at all. And I was kind of,

338
00:19:48,949 --> 00:19:54,229
Speaker 3: you know, doing exercises to address my symptoms. And I

339
00:19:54,269 --> 00:19:57,959
Speaker 3: remember thinking, you know, I've been feeling suicidal for months

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Speaker 3: and you're giving me exercises.

341
00:20:01,319 --> 00:20:03,339
Speaker 1: Did you tell them that you were feeling suicidal?

342
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Speaker 3: I did in the initial assessment, which is why they

343
00:20:08,219 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 3: put me on the antidepressants. I would have thought that

344
00:20:12,719 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 3: information was passed to the therapist, but we didn't really

345
00:20:15,439 --> 00:20:16,149
Speaker 3: talk about it.

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Speaker 1: This feels almost like a repetition of what would happen

347
00:20:21,349 --> 00:20:26,429
Speaker 1: in your family, where you're doing everything you can to

348
00:20:26,889 --> 00:20:30,889
Speaker 1: try to let people know that you're struggling and people

349
00:20:30,949 --> 00:20:34,349
Speaker 1: are not giving you the kind of response that would

350
00:20:34,369 --> 00:20:40,259
Speaker 1: be helpful. And You were sort of numbing yourself with

351
00:20:40,519 --> 00:20:45,139
Speaker 1: recreational drugs. You were restricting your eating. You were trying

352
00:20:45,159 --> 00:20:48,999
Speaker 1: to find ways to cope with a situation where you

353
00:20:49,019 --> 00:20:50,339
Speaker 1: weren't getting any support.

354
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. I was using a lot

355
00:20:56,729 --> 00:20:59,029
Speaker 3: of drugs from 17 and these are the kinds of

356
00:20:59,049 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 3: drugs that don't really mess with your brain.

357
00:21:01,679 --> 00:21:02,499
Speaker 1: What were you using?

358
00:21:03,419 --> 00:21:06,339
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of ecstasy. That was my drug of choice.

359
00:21:07,179 --> 00:21:13,689
Speaker 3: And yes, I had an eating disorder. It wasn't ever diagnosed.

360
00:21:13,829 --> 00:21:16,849
Speaker 3: I didn't ever pursue any help with that. And I

361
00:21:16,889 --> 00:21:18,629
Speaker 3: just kind of fell out of it at some point.

362
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Speaker 2: You know, Melanie, it's so unusual for a 17-year-old to

363
00:21:25,479 --> 00:21:28,859
Speaker 2: pick themselves up and find a psychiatrist and get assessed

364
00:21:28,899 --> 00:21:32,259
Speaker 2: and then find a therapist. And it's so unfortunate that

365
00:21:32,339 --> 00:21:35,259
Speaker 2: you were desperately searching for some kind of connection with

366
00:21:35,399 --> 00:21:38,459
Speaker 2: some kind of adult who you could rely on because

367
00:21:38,479 --> 00:21:40,659
Speaker 2: there were none. And it sounds like there was zero

368
00:21:40,679 --> 00:21:44,609
Speaker 2: connection with a therapist. And that just affirms to you

369
00:21:45,459 --> 00:21:47,179
Speaker 2: that adults don't see me.

370
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,839
Speaker 3: I do remember feeling very alone, completely alone.

371
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Speaker 1: And on top of that, your mom found your antidepressants

372
00:21:58,439 --> 00:22:02,869
Speaker 1: and told you you don't need these, but didn't seem

373
00:22:02,929 --> 00:22:05,749
Speaker 1: curious at all about why you had them in the

374
00:22:05,789 --> 00:22:08,849
Speaker 1: first place. Did she ask you about that?

375
00:22:11,709 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 3: She didn't ask me any questions about It was ironic.

376
00:22:16,499 --> 00:22:20,299
Speaker 3: She worked in psychiatry herself, but looking back, I think

377
00:22:20,379 --> 00:22:23,899
Speaker 3: maybe she was feeling scared and she reacted with anger.

378
00:22:23,919 --> 00:22:27,759
Speaker 3: And she yelled at me and said, I remember very clearly,

379
00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 3: she said, I work with very sick people. You don't

380
00:22:31,939 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 3: need to be on these.

381
00:22:32,899 --> 00:22:36,869
Speaker 1: Do you remember telling her, Mom, I'm really struggling?

382
00:22:38,169 --> 00:22:41,729
Speaker 3: No, I think I felt like I couldn't trust her.

383
00:22:44,029 --> 00:22:45,409
Speaker 1: What did you think she would do if you had

384
00:22:45,449 --> 00:22:45,869
Speaker 1: said that?

385
00:22:47,549 --> 00:22:50,709
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like she would handle them sensitively and,

386
00:22:51,049 --> 00:22:55,989
Speaker 3: you know, tactfully and give me, you know, reassuring input.

387
00:22:57,989 --> 00:23:00,889
Speaker 1: So the trust was she won't be able to help me,

388
00:23:00,949 --> 00:23:03,989
Speaker 1: so it's a waste to tell her anyway, or the

389
00:23:04,329 --> 00:23:07,909
Speaker 1: trust is she might share this with people?

390
00:23:09,249 --> 00:23:12,589
Speaker 3: Well, she has compromised my privacy at other times with

391
00:23:12,649 --> 00:23:18,029
Speaker 3: other things. I felt like she wouldn't be caring and

392
00:23:18,449 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 3: sensitive and I needed that care and sensitivity. She was

393
00:23:22,339 --> 00:23:24,659
Speaker 3: often quite angry with me. I feel like I was

394
00:23:24,739 --> 00:23:29,939
Speaker 3: struggling and I was kind of branded as deviant. That's

395
00:23:29,979 --> 00:23:30,579
Speaker 3: how I felt.

396
00:23:32,179 --> 00:23:34,379
Speaker 1: This is so important because I think it relates to

397
00:23:34,419 --> 00:23:37,369
Speaker 1: what you're dealing with now, which is this idea that

398
00:23:38,689 --> 00:23:41,829
Speaker 1: I don't trust her to be careful with my heart.

399
00:23:43,429 --> 00:23:43,569
Speaker 3: Yeah.

400
00:23:55,779 --> 00:23:58,139
Speaker 1: I think it's because I just touched your heart in

401
00:23:58,179 --> 00:24:01,409
Speaker 1: a way that you longed for your mom to. That

402
00:24:01,449 --> 00:24:04,549
Speaker 1: I saw you in a way that you want your

403
00:24:04,589 --> 00:24:09,029
Speaker 1: mom to see you. And so I think that when

404
00:24:09,109 --> 00:24:11,809
Speaker 1: we're young and we know that we're not going to

405
00:24:11,829 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: get the response that's going to be caring and loving,

406
00:24:16,239 --> 00:24:21,979
Speaker 1: we start to distrust that person to handle our most tender,

407
00:24:22,099 --> 00:24:23,419
Speaker 1: vulnerable parts.

408
00:24:24,269 --> 00:24:26,289
Speaker 3: That sounds like very accurate to.

409
00:24:26,289 --> 00:24:31,389
Speaker 2: Me and unfortunately for you there wasn't anyone else that

410
00:24:31,449 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 2: was compensating for that in other words what you were

411
00:24:35,159 --> 00:24:37,319
Speaker 2: probably feeling at the time is that I can't trust

412
00:24:37,399 --> 00:24:40,579
Speaker 2: anyone with my heart because no one was taking any

413
00:24:40,639 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 2: interest in it people could see that the parents got

414
00:24:44,459 --> 00:24:46,699
Speaker 2: divorced that you might have been struggling suddenly there's a

415
00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:50,169
Speaker 2: weight loss you're partying too much and yet no one

416
00:24:50,229 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 2: expressed concern or care so that mistrust must have expanded

417
00:24:55,159 --> 00:24:58,059
Speaker 2: even beyond your mum to people in general. Are there

418
00:24:58,079 --> 00:24:59,579
Speaker 2: people who can really care for me?

419
00:25:01,549 --> 00:25:06,069
Speaker 3: That hasn't occurred to me before, but potentially, yes. We

420
00:25:06,089 --> 00:25:10,569
Speaker 3: did have relatives who were in our lives. No one

421
00:25:10,629 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 3: ever asked how I was doing. I can remember my

422
00:25:15,179 --> 00:25:17,599
Speaker 3: auntie stopping me in the street and she sounded very

423
00:25:17,659 --> 00:25:19,799
Speaker 3: cross and said, you've got very thin. And she kind

424
00:25:19,859 --> 00:25:23,129
Speaker 3: of pulled at my trousers, just, you know, show how

425
00:25:23,169 --> 00:25:27,249
Speaker 3: much weight I'd lost, but it wasn't concern that I felt.

426
00:25:27,629 --> 00:25:29,629
Speaker 3: I almost felt like I was being told off.

427
00:25:29,929 --> 00:25:33,789
Speaker 1: It felt like a criticism, like you've done something wrong

428
00:25:33,849 --> 00:25:37,769
Speaker 1: as opposed to tell me what's going on. Are you okay?

429
00:25:39,289 --> 00:25:40,489
Speaker 1: Can I ask how old you are now?

430
00:25:40,509 --> 00:25:43,389
Speaker 3: I'm 36. Okay.

431
00:25:43,929 --> 00:25:50,229
Speaker 1: So between 17 and 36, what has happened with the

432
00:25:50,269 --> 00:25:55,029
Speaker 1: relationship with your mom and your dad. And then also

433
00:25:55,069 --> 00:25:57,869
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you and your sister have now reconciled.

434
00:26:00,829 --> 00:26:04,339
Speaker 3: So with my dad, I feel like we're in the

435
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,999
Speaker 3: best place that we can be. I feel like he

436
00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:11,559
Speaker 3: has quite big limitations in terms of how close he

437
00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 3: can just get to people. But I see him more

438
00:26:14,939 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 3: than I ever have. He has a stabilizing relationship. So

439
00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 3: he's doing great. fairly well in himself. And I don't

440
00:26:26,959 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 3: really struggle so much with my relationship with my dad

441
00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 3: because I feel like that's as good as it's going

442
00:26:32,479 --> 00:26:34,779
Speaker 3: to get. And it's a lot better than it has

443
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:36,559
Speaker 3: been at times.

444
00:26:37,369 --> 00:26:40,669
Speaker 1: Does he have any idea about how much you've struggled?

445
00:26:41,609 --> 00:26:42,809
Speaker 1: Did you ever share that with him?

446
00:26:44,509 --> 00:26:48,109
Speaker 3: No, I don't think he can really do emotional conversations.

447
00:26:49,689 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: And what about your sister? When did that reconciliation happen

448
00:26:53,139 --> 00:26:55,969
Speaker 1: and what does that look like in terms of the

449
00:26:55,989 --> 00:26:57,909
Speaker 1: emotional intimacy between the two of you?

450
00:26:58,569 --> 00:27:02,509
Speaker 3: I think there's just been a sort of softening for

451
00:27:02,529 --> 00:27:05,689
Speaker 3: both of us as we've got older. I've made a

452
00:27:05,749 --> 00:27:10,549
Speaker 3: conscious effort to speak to her more and we have

453
00:27:10,639 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 3: quite intimate conversations now. Like they're really nourishing to me.

454
00:27:15,699 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 3: We would never have had these 10 years ago.

455
00:27:19,459 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: When did that start and who reached out?

456
00:27:22,529 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 3: I think she has kind of sprung into action when

457
00:27:25,859 --> 00:27:28,969
Speaker 3: I've had some difficult things going on in my life.

458
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,559
Speaker 3: When I've left relationships, she's made an effort to connect

459
00:27:34,579 --> 00:27:36,979
Speaker 3: with me and check in with me. I've had some

460
00:27:36,999 --> 00:27:40,759
Speaker 3: health problems lately, let's say in the last year or two.

461
00:27:41,999 --> 00:27:44,519
Speaker 3: For some reason, we've started talking a lot about this

462
00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 3: historical family stuff and current issues which we both have

463
00:27:50,459 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 3: with our mother.

464
00:27:52,939 --> 00:27:55,859
Speaker 1: And it sounds like that was the first time that

465
00:27:55,939 --> 00:27:59,779
Speaker 1: another adult, even though she's your peer, we're both adults now,

466
00:28:00,739 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: showed concern for something you were struggling with.

467
00:28:05,779 --> 00:28:11,339
Speaker 3: Yes. For example, I left an abusive relationship and we

468
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,059
Speaker 3: weren't living in the same town, but I remember when

469
00:28:14,099 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 3: I visited home, we were together a bit and I

470
00:28:18,179 --> 00:28:21,519
Speaker 3: just remember feeling very cared for by her at that time.

471
00:28:23,059 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: What did she do that made you feel cared for?

472
00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:29,839
Speaker 3: She gave me all the kind of kind words and

473
00:28:29,879 --> 00:28:34,099
Speaker 3: assurances and encouragements that I needed and wanted and she

474
00:28:34,179 --> 00:28:40,819
Speaker 3: also helped me navigate conversations with my parents. I think

475
00:28:40,979 --> 00:28:44,929
Speaker 3: I remember seeing my dad with her and I didn't

476
00:28:45,329 --> 00:28:48,949
Speaker 3: necessarily have to tell him but for whatever reason I

477
00:28:48,989 --> 00:28:52,579
Speaker 3: wanted to tell him I'd been in this abusive relationship.

478
00:28:52,879 --> 00:28:56,319
Speaker 3: And I think she kind of helped me tell him

479
00:28:56,339 --> 00:29:02,129
Speaker 3: and navigate that conversation that he wasn't really that well

480
00:29:02,209 --> 00:29:05,509
Speaker 3: equipped for. I just felt that she had my back,

481
00:29:05,729 --> 00:29:06,169
Speaker 3: I suppose.

482
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:09,089
Speaker 2: She listened, is what she did. I mean, this is

483
00:29:09,169 --> 00:29:11,649
Speaker 2: the first thing. She can say the kind words, but

484
00:29:11,869 --> 00:29:14,369
Speaker 2: in order to say them, she first has to listen

485
00:29:14,609 --> 00:29:17,909
Speaker 2: and actually hear you and actually see you and actually

486
00:29:17,949 --> 00:29:21,069
Speaker 2: convey that she gets... what you are going through, and

487
00:29:21,109 --> 00:29:24,069
Speaker 2: then she can say words that are supportive. But even

488
00:29:24,109 --> 00:29:26,809
Speaker 2: when she's helping you navigate the conversation with your dad,

489
00:29:27,089 --> 00:29:30,049
Speaker 2: she's clearly listening and seeing you in a way that

490
00:29:30,729 --> 00:29:34,009
Speaker 2: none of the family members had. That must have been

491
00:29:34,459 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 2: really important for you in your early 20s to have

492
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:41,799
Speaker 2: that experience for the first time of a family member

493
00:29:41,939 --> 00:29:44,999
Speaker 2: actually caring, actually helping, actually validating.

494
00:29:45,019 --> 00:29:48,999
Speaker 3: It was. It was really meaningful. And maybe that was

495
00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:52,589
Speaker 3: the start of us gradually improving our relationship.

496
00:29:53,629 --> 00:29:55,709
Speaker 1: I also think it's one thing to imagine what it

497
00:29:55,749 --> 00:29:59,029
Speaker 1: would feel like to get that kind of support. And

498
00:29:59,069 --> 00:30:03,679
Speaker 1: it's another thing entirely to actually experience it. And you

499
00:30:03,709 --> 00:30:07,339
Speaker 1: had been, I imagine, fantasizing about what it would be

500
00:30:07,399 --> 00:30:10,839
Speaker 1: like your whole childhood to get that kind of support.

501
00:30:11,179 --> 00:30:13,399
Speaker 1: Maybe you even saw other people with their mothers or

502
00:30:13,439 --> 00:30:18,589
Speaker 1: fathers and had envy of what you imagined those conversations

503
00:30:18,649 --> 00:30:23,449
Speaker 1: look like in their households. And so you can fantasize

504
00:30:23,509 --> 00:30:25,069
Speaker 1: about it, but when you get it, it's almost like

505
00:30:25,089 --> 00:30:28,249
Speaker 1: you've been dreaming of a meal forever and you're starving.

506
00:30:28,289 --> 00:30:31,629
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden someone feeds you and

507
00:30:31,649 --> 00:30:36,659
Speaker 1: it feels so delicious to get that kind of support,

508
00:30:36,719 --> 00:30:41,159
Speaker 1: to be seen, to be heard, to be understood. And

509
00:30:41,199 --> 00:30:44,759
Speaker 1: maybe in a way, that other people wouldn't quite understand

510
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:47,069
Speaker 1: because she grew up in that house too, even if

511
00:30:47,109 --> 00:30:51,899
Speaker 1: she had a different experience of it. So it seems

512
00:30:51,919 --> 00:30:54,359
Speaker 1: like that maybe set the stage for something to happen

513
00:30:54,399 --> 00:30:55,339
Speaker 1: between the two of you.

514
00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:57,369
Speaker 3: I think it did.

515
00:30:58,589 --> 00:31:03,449
Speaker 1: You said you've gotten into some historical family conversations. What

516
00:31:03,469 --> 00:31:04,329
Speaker 1: have those been like?

517
00:31:05,629 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 3: We've just been sharing our experiences of... some really difficult

518
00:31:11,539 --> 00:31:17,039
Speaker 3: times including you know our parents separation and the things

519
00:31:17,059 --> 00:31:21,789
Speaker 3: that happened around that and then our experiences moving to

520
00:31:21,829 --> 00:31:25,449
Speaker 3: a new town a little bit later and both feeling

521
00:31:25,569 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 3: quite lonely and adrift and like we didn't really belong

522
00:31:30,499 --> 00:31:34,199
Speaker 3: and she had some slightly different stuff going on it

523
00:31:34,239 --> 00:31:38,219
Speaker 3: wasn't exactly the same experience but It's been really healing

524
00:31:38,299 --> 00:31:41,269
Speaker 3: to kind of revisit that in what feels like a safe,

525
00:31:42,289 --> 00:31:45,689
Speaker 3: nurturing space and both hear each other.

526
00:31:47,549 --> 00:31:50,889
Speaker 2: You mentioned some struggles with relationships that have happened over

527
00:31:50,909 --> 00:31:54,419
Speaker 2: your life. Tell us a little bit about this relationship

528
00:31:54,449 --> 00:31:57,039
Speaker 2: history and what tends to happen and where you feel

529
00:31:57,079 --> 00:31:57,819
Speaker 2: things go wrong.

530
00:31:59,179 --> 00:32:03,329
Speaker 3: So I chose some pretty dubious partners in my 20s.

531
00:32:05,009 --> 00:32:09,269
Speaker 3: There were people who didn't really respond to my needs

532
00:32:09,709 --> 00:32:15,849
Speaker 3: or validate my feelings. Some quite angry people. But if

533
00:32:15,989 --> 00:32:18,849
Speaker 3: I've tried to understand the kind of pattern, it's the

534
00:32:18,869 --> 00:32:22,469
Speaker 3: sort of, I've picked relationships where I don't feel seen

535
00:32:25,009 --> 00:32:27,349
Speaker 3: and stayed in them quite a long time on some occasions.

536
00:32:28,289 --> 00:32:30,639
Speaker 1: So basically a revisit of your childhood.

537
00:32:31,489 --> 00:32:31,709
Speaker 3: Yes.

538
00:32:32,439 --> 00:32:34,459
Speaker 2: So when did that penny drop for you? You're saying

539
00:32:34,499 --> 00:32:37,109
Speaker 2: it quite clearly now. When did you have that realisation

540
00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:41,089
Speaker 2: that you were replicating your childhood and choosing people that

541
00:32:41,129 --> 00:32:41,869
Speaker 2: weren't seeing you?

542
00:32:42,889 --> 00:32:45,549
Speaker 3: I left a long-term relationship a couple of years ago

543
00:32:45,889 --> 00:32:50,409
Speaker 3: and I had some psychotherapy after that. And that helped

544
00:32:50,469 --> 00:32:53,189
Speaker 3: me get a bit more understanding.

545
00:32:54,329 --> 00:32:57,489
Speaker 2: And do you see a change in who you select

546
00:32:58,269 --> 00:32:59,669
Speaker 2: these days after that insight?

547
00:33:01,979 --> 00:33:06,159
Speaker 3: I do. My standards are a lot higher. I want

548
00:33:06,179 --> 00:33:08,539
Speaker 3: to meet someone and have a family. So I have

549
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:12,229
Speaker 3: a lot of worry around that. Sometimes that might never

550
00:33:12,269 --> 00:33:17,729
Speaker 3: happen for me. Time is ticking away. But I am

551
00:33:17,769 --> 00:33:21,929
Speaker 3: in a place now where I won't accept less. And

552
00:33:21,949 --> 00:33:22,489
Speaker 3: that's good.

553
00:33:23,049 --> 00:33:24,979
Speaker 2: It is. Are you also in a place where you

554
00:33:25,079 --> 00:33:28,509
Speaker 2: can feel That maybe not right away, but with the

555
00:33:28,569 --> 00:33:31,669
Speaker 2: right person that you can be vulnerable, that you can trust,

556
00:33:31,829 --> 00:33:35,189
Speaker 2: that you can give them a chance to see there

557
00:33:35,489 --> 00:33:38,469
Speaker 2: and be validating and supportive. Because you also have to

558
00:33:38,509 --> 00:33:42,599
Speaker 2: bring someone in enough to give them that opportunity. Are

559
00:33:42,639 --> 00:33:43,199
Speaker 2: you doing that?

560
00:33:43,579 --> 00:33:48,859
Speaker 3: I'm practicing. I'm definitely getting better. I've consciously tried to

561
00:33:49,479 --> 00:33:55,879
Speaker 3: be more vulnerable with people, you know, relatives, friends, romantic partners.

562
00:33:56,979 --> 00:34:00,849
Speaker 3: I'm making pretty good progress there. I'm really working on it.

563
00:34:02,209 --> 00:34:04,669
Speaker 1: Is that what prompted you a couple of years ago

564
00:34:04,849 --> 00:34:08,569
Speaker 1: to finally, after all these years, tell your mom how

565
00:34:08,609 --> 00:34:12,129
Speaker 1: you felt about the way she characterizes you as the

566
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:12,849
Speaker 1: resilient one?

567
00:34:15,769 --> 00:34:22,409
Speaker 3: Yes. I've been practicing speaking my truth. I've been practicing

568
00:34:22,609 --> 00:34:27,329
Speaker 3: talking about my needs. telling people when I'm not happy.

569
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 3: And actually, I sort of segued into that difficult conversation

570
00:34:32,839 --> 00:34:37,099
Speaker 3: with my mum. It came out sort of by accident,

571
00:34:37,319 --> 00:34:39,899
Speaker 3: but when it was happening, I really stayed with it.

572
00:34:40,839 --> 00:34:44,069
Speaker 3: And even though it's been pretty horrible at times, that conversation,

573
00:34:44,089 --> 00:34:47,889
Speaker 3: I felt really hurt. I was also really proud of

574
00:34:47,949 --> 00:34:52,769
Speaker 3: myself for speaking my internal reality, whether she wanted to

575
00:34:52,829 --> 00:34:53,729
Speaker 3: listen or not.

576
00:34:55,339 --> 00:34:58,339
Speaker 1: You said that your mom fell to pieces on the

577
00:34:58,379 --> 00:35:02,559
Speaker 1: beach and sort of collapsed and you had to contain her.

578
00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:05,379
Speaker 1: Had something like that ever happened with her before?

579
00:35:07,019 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 3: Not as extreme as that, no. When I'm around her,

580
00:35:10,849 --> 00:35:13,929
Speaker 3: I think I've often felt like I'm walking on eggshells

581
00:35:13,969 --> 00:35:17,129
Speaker 3: and I have to kind of navigate her slight volatility.

582
00:35:18,829 --> 00:35:20,309
Speaker 3: But nothing like that before.

583
00:35:20,329 --> 00:35:22,749
Speaker 2: Can you just tell us a little bit about what

584
00:35:22,789 --> 00:35:26,169
Speaker 2: actually that looked like, that conversation when she fell to

585
00:35:26,209 --> 00:35:28,669
Speaker 2: pieces because people use that term, but what was actually

586
00:35:28,709 --> 00:35:31,189
Speaker 2: happening with her in that conversation?

587
00:35:33,929 --> 00:35:39,779
Speaker 3: She was crying. She was saying things like, I thought

588
00:35:39,819 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 3: we loved each other. She was saying that she'd always

589
00:35:44,839 --> 00:35:47,999
Speaker 3: tried to be a good mother. I felt very poked.

590
00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:52,199
Speaker 3: She kept poking at it and she would talk quite

591
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:58,039
Speaker 3: defensively about why she couldn't have done better, what was

592
00:35:58,099 --> 00:35:59,559
Speaker 3: going on for her at the time.

593
00:36:00,279 --> 00:36:03,739
Speaker 2: In that conversation, she really experienced you sharing how you

594
00:36:03,799 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 2: feel as an attack on her, as a big criticism

595
00:36:08,539 --> 00:36:12,159
Speaker 2: of her parenting. She had a really hard time hearing

596
00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:16,979
Speaker 2: you talking about how you feel without personalising it as

597
00:36:17,859 --> 00:36:22,559
Speaker 2: an accusation. And then she gets really defensive as a result. Yeah.

598
00:36:23,859 --> 00:36:24,859
Speaker 3: That was what was happening.

599
00:36:26,369 --> 00:36:28,459
Speaker 1: It sounds like she was so busy defending herself that

600
00:36:28,519 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: she didn't seem to be very curious about what you

601
00:36:32,419 --> 00:36:35,859
Speaker 1: were trying to tell her. And I think your message was,

602
00:36:36,819 --> 00:36:40,179
Speaker 1: I was in a lot of pain as a child,

603
00:36:42,279 --> 00:36:46,999
Speaker 1: and it has affected me as an adult. And she

604
00:36:47,899 --> 00:36:49,339
Speaker 1: could not sit with that with you.

605
00:36:49,359 --> 00:36:53,639
Speaker 3: That's right. I expressed it as carefully as I could.

606
00:36:55,249 --> 00:36:59,709
Speaker 3: I tried not to lay blame at her door. I

607
00:36:59,829 --> 00:37:03,329
Speaker 3: didn't really tell her and I haven't told her about

608
00:37:05,939 --> 00:37:08,639
Speaker 3: what I've carried through into my adult life and some

609
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,479
Speaker 3: of the problems I've had. I've always kind of shielded

610
00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:14,019
Speaker 3: her from that, I suppose.

611
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,379
Speaker 1: And maybe you weren't just shielding her, but you were

612
00:37:18,419 --> 00:37:22,699
Speaker 1: shielding you because not only have you experienced this pain,

613
00:37:23,479 --> 00:37:27,299
Speaker 1: but then you experience more pain when you try to

614
00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:31,599
Speaker 1: talk to her about this and she shuts you down

615
00:37:32,529 --> 00:37:34,089
Speaker 1: with her own defensiveness.

616
00:37:35,389 --> 00:37:35,789
Speaker 2: Yes.

617
00:37:36,369 --> 00:37:39,089
Speaker 1: So it's a painful experience to go to her and

618
00:37:39,169 --> 00:37:43,349
Speaker 1: tell her this. You're already in pain, but then having

619
00:37:43,389 --> 00:37:47,699
Speaker 1: the conversation brings on more pain. It doesn't bring relief,

620
00:37:47,739 --> 00:37:52,819
Speaker 1: which is what we hope to get from these conversations. Connection, relief, understanding, care.

621
00:37:52,839 --> 00:37:57,819
Speaker 3: I felt like it was actually doing more harm than good.

622
00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:03,599
Speaker 3: And that's why I kind of shut it down. Right.

623
00:38:04,019 --> 00:38:08,669
Speaker 2: And in that conversation, she demonstrated once again, why you

624
00:38:09,069 --> 00:38:13,109
Speaker 2: have a hard time trusting her because she doesn't hear

625
00:38:13,149 --> 00:38:19,019
Speaker 2: them or address them. She just experiences you're distress, as blame,

626
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:23,059
Speaker 2: as criticism, and then comes back at you.

627
00:38:23,819 --> 00:38:25,739
Speaker 1: What you've seen, as we said earlier, is that she's

628
00:38:25,799 --> 00:38:29,679
Speaker 1: not careful with your heart. And I think what you're

629
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,369
Speaker 1: trying to do and the reason that you wrote to

630
00:38:31,479 --> 00:38:33,849
Speaker 1: us is you're trying to be careful with your own heart.

631
00:38:34,789 --> 00:38:37,609
Speaker 1: You're trying to find a way to say, how can

632
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:42,289
Speaker 1: I be careful with my heart and also have a

633
00:38:42,309 --> 00:38:45,539
Speaker 1: relationship with my mother? What would that look like?

634
00:38:46,759 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: That's exactly it.

635
00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:51,019
Speaker 2: So what does the relationship look like right now?

636
00:38:51,619 --> 00:38:53,699
Speaker 3: So I speak to her on the phone. We live

637
00:38:53,759 --> 00:38:56,039
Speaker 3: in different towns. I speak to her on the phone

638
00:38:56,079 --> 00:38:59,059
Speaker 3: maybe once or twice a week for a short phone call.

639
00:38:59,339 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 2: Who calls who?

640
00:39:01,209 --> 00:39:04,569
Speaker 3: I tend to call her. I've encouraged her to call me,

641
00:39:04,669 --> 00:39:09,109
Speaker 3: but she... It's like she tiptoes around me a lot. She...

642
00:39:09,729 --> 00:39:11,659
Speaker 3: seems to say, I don't want to bother you. I

643
00:39:11,699 --> 00:39:14,339
Speaker 3: don't want to bother you. Whereas I would like her

644
00:39:14,359 --> 00:39:16,199
Speaker 3: to call me because then I'd feel like she was

645
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,819
Speaker 3: taking an interest. Right.

646
00:39:20,279 --> 00:39:23,519
Speaker 1: Talking to someone that you have a difficult relationship once

647
00:39:23,579 --> 00:39:27,129
Speaker 1: or twice a week is frequent. What makes you want

648
00:39:27,149 --> 00:39:29,169
Speaker 1: to call her? What are you hoping to get from

649
00:39:29,209 --> 00:39:32,209
Speaker 1: those conversations? And are they nourishing in any way?

650
00:39:33,169 --> 00:39:37,529
Speaker 3: They're not nourishing. I think a sense of obligation is.

651
00:39:39,059 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 3: A large part of that, I often feel quite rejected

652
00:39:45,319 --> 00:39:48,969
Speaker 3: during those phone calls because she talks a lot about herself.

653
00:39:49,889 --> 00:39:53,109
Speaker 3: She'll tell you anything and everything going on in her life.

654
00:39:53,929 --> 00:39:56,129
Speaker 3: And then she'll kind of ask me one or two

655
00:39:56,209 --> 00:40:02,889
Speaker 3: kind of standard questions. How's work? Or what are you

656
00:40:02,909 --> 00:40:06,099
Speaker 3: doing today? I don't feel like she's present.

657
00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:09,499
Speaker 1: You said you call her out of a sense of obligation.

658
00:40:09,739 --> 00:40:13,139
Speaker 1: Does she have anyone in her life? Did she get remarried?

659
00:40:13,799 --> 00:40:17,579
Speaker 3: She did. She has a partner of about 20 years now.

660
00:40:18,979 --> 00:40:20,039
Speaker 3: She has a few friends.

661
00:40:20,579 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 1: Do you have any relationship at all with this person

662
00:40:22,439 --> 00:40:24,179
Speaker 1: or is this person more similar to your mother where

663
00:40:24,219 --> 00:40:25,219
Speaker 1: it's more superficial?

664
00:40:25,479 --> 00:40:28,869
Speaker 3: More superficial. He's a good guy, but he's a real

665
00:40:29,989 --> 00:40:34,089
Speaker 3: talker like my mother. I visited them at Christmas and

666
00:40:35,439 --> 00:40:37,309
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure whether to do it because I have

667
00:40:37,329 --> 00:40:41,099
Speaker 3: a difficult time there, but I did. and I realized

668
00:40:41,519 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 3: between the two of them I'm left feeling sort of

669
00:40:45,139 --> 00:40:49,019
Speaker 3: really overwhelmed at how much they talk at me and

670
00:40:49,059 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 3: I feel almost invisible.

671
00:40:53,659 --> 00:40:55,219
Speaker 1: Is your sister there at Christmas?

672
00:40:56,899 --> 00:40:59,899
Speaker 3: She has a partner and a baby now, so she

673
00:40:59,939 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 3: was there after Christmas for a.

674
00:41:01,199 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 2: Couple of days.

675
00:41:02,659 --> 00:41:06,499
Speaker 1: You mentioned in your letter that your mom characterizes your

676
00:41:06,539 --> 00:41:10,539
Speaker 1: sister as the one who really struggled. Tell us a

677
00:41:10,559 --> 00:41:13,899
Speaker 1: little bit about why your mom believes that, what she

678
00:41:13,939 --> 00:41:16,199
Speaker 1: was seeing with your sister that she wasn't seeing with you.

679
00:41:17,099 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 3: It's strange really because I feel like we've had a

680
00:41:19,279 --> 00:41:22,459
Speaker 3: lot of very similar issues and got very different treatment.

681
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:25,229
Speaker 1: Your sister is the one who seems to have found

682
00:41:25,249 --> 00:41:28,939
Speaker 1: a healthy relationship. and the family, the things that you're wanting.

683
00:41:30,879 --> 00:41:35,219
Speaker 1: Does your mom notice that, that maybe you are struggling

684
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 1: with some things that your sister is not?

685
00:41:37,659 --> 00:41:40,669
Speaker 3: No, I don't think she wants to see, to give

686
00:41:40,689 --> 00:41:43,749
Speaker 3: you an example. You know, like I said earlier, I

687
00:41:43,869 --> 00:41:46,989
Speaker 3: would really like to meet someone and have a family.

688
00:41:47,009 --> 00:41:51,149
Speaker 3: I'm feeling a lot of worry around that. And my

689
00:41:51,189 --> 00:41:54,479
Speaker 3: sister's had this baby. I'm very happy for her, but,

690
00:41:54,499 --> 00:41:57,159
Speaker 3: you know, I'm feeling worried about myself. And I've heard

691
00:41:57,209 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 3: my mum say things like, I'm so, so relieved or

692
00:42:01,779 --> 00:42:05,159
Speaker 3: so happy to have a grandchild. And I just wonder,

693
00:42:05,179 --> 00:42:08,339
Speaker 3: does she ever wonder about what my emotional experience is

694
00:42:08,359 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 3: at this time in my life? Single in my late thirties,

695
00:42:13,479 --> 00:42:16,479
Speaker 3: wanting to meet someone. Does she wonder, does she ever

696
00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:17,299
Speaker 3: think about it?

697
00:42:18,339 --> 00:42:21,769
Speaker 1: Does your sister know how worried you are about this

698
00:42:21,909 --> 00:42:25,289
Speaker 1: and how lonely it is not having a partner right now?

699
00:42:26,909 --> 00:42:30,009
Speaker 3: I've maybe touched on this with my sister. We haven't

700
00:42:30,049 --> 00:42:34,189
Speaker 3: gone very deep into it. So I want to respect

701
00:42:34,249 --> 00:42:37,589
Speaker 3: her happiness with our own situation. God knows she deserves it.

702
00:42:38,889 --> 00:42:42,119
Speaker 1: Isn't it possible that this is both and, that you

703
00:42:42,159 --> 00:42:48,979
Speaker 1: can be happy for your sister and also be feeling worried, lonely,

704
00:42:49,779 --> 00:42:52,639
Speaker 1: sad about the fact that you haven't found that yet?

705
00:42:55,519 --> 00:42:58,629
Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm aware that it's possible for those two things

706
00:42:58,649 --> 00:42:59,289
Speaker 3: to coexist.

707
00:42:59,789 --> 00:43:01,519
Speaker 2: One thing that you have to keep in mind is

708
00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: that when so many people have failed you so consistently

709
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:09,559
Speaker 2: over your life, it's very natural that even when you

710
00:43:09,579 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 2: do find someone that you trust, like your sister, and

711
00:43:11,859 --> 00:43:14,289
Speaker 2: you've repaired that relationship, that you still hold back a

712
00:43:14,329 --> 00:43:20,169
Speaker 2: little bit because fully trusting is still scary, perhaps. And

713
00:43:20,229 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 2: it's also possible that you've been trained by your parents

714
00:43:23,459 --> 00:43:26,059
Speaker 2: to first think about the needs and feelings of the

715
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:28,939
Speaker 2: other person before your own so you're worried about oh

716
00:43:28,979 --> 00:43:31,649
Speaker 2: she might experience that as you're saying that you're envious

717
00:43:31,709 --> 00:43:34,509
Speaker 2: or something and I think it's important with your sister

718
00:43:34,689 --> 00:43:37,569
Speaker 2: she's demonstrated that she can be there and she can

719
00:43:37,609 --> 00:43:37,989
Speaker 2: hear it.

720
00:43:40,169 --> 00:43:43,129
Speaker 3: Yeah none of that had occurred to me and.

721
00:43:44,219 --> 00:43:46,479
Speaker 1: I think you're right I want to go back to

722
00:43:46,519 --> 00:43:50,859
Speaker 1: your mom what is it that you are hoping for

723
00:43:53,139 --> 00:43:55,419
Speaker 1: in terms of your relationship with your mom at this

724
00:43:55,499 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: point in your lives?

725
00:43:58,699 --> 00:44:03,309
Speaker 3: That's the challenge that I'm struggling with. It's been quite

726
00:44:03,329 --> 00:44:05,409
Speaker 3: an intense couple of years where I've kind of worked

727
00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:09,529
Speaker 3: out what I was missing, what I've been longing for

728
00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:11,689
Speaker 3: and what I perhaps feel like I was owed that

729
00:44:12,909 --> 00:44:16,729
Speaker 3: I didn't get. I don't know what to hope for.

730
00:44:16,749 --> 00:44:21,709
Speaker 3: I know what I'd ideally want from a relationship with

731
00:44:22,569 --> 00:44:25,629
Speaker 3: my mother, but I don't know where to aim.

732
00:44:27,149 --> 00:44:29,089
Speaker 1: You said something in your letter that I thought was

733
00:44:29,149 --> 00:44:33,979
Speaker 1: really important. You said, should I even try to have

734
00:44:34,039 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: this kind of relationship with her given her limitations? I

735
00:44:38,899 --> 00:44:42,299
Speaker 1: thought that was a very important question because I think

736
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:44,339
Speaker 1: when I ask, what is it that you want with

737
00:44:44,379 --> 00:44:47,099
Speaker 1: your mother? Where you go is, what do I want

738
00:44:47,229 --> 00:44:52,199
Speaker 1: from the mother I should have had? So there's the

739
00:44:52,259 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: mother you have and the mother you wish you had.

740
00:44:57,259 --> 00:44:59,459
Speaker 1: And those are two different people. And I think you're

741
00:44:59,499 --> 00:45:02,639
Speaker 1: finally coming to terms with the fact that those might

742
00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:06,889
Speaker 1: be two different people. Some people spend their entire lives

743
00:45:07,389 --> 00:45:10,809
Speaker 1: trying to make the mother that they have into the

744
00:45:10,849 --> 00:45:13,749
Speaker 1: mother they wish they had. And they end up getting

745
00:45:13,829 --> 00:45:20,729
Speaker 1: repeatedly injured in every interaction. because they leave feeling unseen, unheard, invisible,

746
00:45:21,049 --> 00:45:26,209
Speaker 1: not cared about, criticized, whatever it might be, over and

747
00:45:26,349 --> 00:45:33,689
Speaker 1: over again. And I wonder how much grief work you've

748
00:45:33,749 --> 00:45:38,049
Speaker 1: done around the fact that you might be able to

749
00:45:38,129 --> 00:45:42,029
Speaker 1: get some things that are nourishing from your mom if

750
00:45:42,049 --> 00:45:44,949
Speaker 1: you're able to grieve the fact that she is not

751
00:45:45,249 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: the mom you wished for. There might be things she

752
00:45:47,879 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: can still offer you.

753
00:45:50,759 --> 00:45:53,499
Speaker 3: No, I haven't done any grief work. And I think

754
00:45:53,619 --> 00:45:58,529
Speaker 3: I'm in that exact place that you've just described. Of

755
00:45:58,609 --> 00:46:04,189
Speaker 3: feeling frustrated at expectations and feeling kind of bruised by

756
00:46:04,289 --> 00:46:06,189
Speaker 3: every interaction, almost.

757
00:46:07,289 --> 00:46:10,599
Speaker 1: It seems like with your father, you were able to say,

758
00:46:11,379 --> 00:46:15,579
Speaker 1: these are his limitations. But with your mother, that's harder.

759
00:46:17,449 --> 00:46:19,409
Speaker 1: What is the difference for you in terms of the

760
00:46:19,469 --> 00:46:22,609
Speaker 1: way that you've sort of accepted that your father struggles

761
00:46:22,649 --> 00:46:26,019
Speaker 1: in the way that he does, but not really being

762
00:46:26,059 --> 00:46:27,869
Speaker 1: able to accept that yet about your mom?

763
00:46:28,759 --> 00:46:33,979
Speaker 3: He asks me questions about my life. He takes an interest.

764
00:46:34,039 --> 00:46:37,679
Speaker 3: He tells me he's proud of me for things that

765
00:46:37,699 --> 00:46:38,859
Speaker 3: are meaningful to me.

766
00:46:40,859 --> 00:46:41,139
Speaker 1: Like?

767
00:46:41,679 --> 00:46:43,859
Speaker 3: Writing that I've done. I'm trying to carve out a

768
00:46:43,859 --> 00:46:48,169
Speaker 3: new career as a writer. And he's made really nice

769
00:46:48,529 --> 00:46:50,579
Speaker 3: comments about things that I've done on that front.

770
00:46:51,849 --> 00:46:54,139
Speaker 1: Does your mom know about this? The writing?

771
00:46:55,299 --> 00:46:59,859
Speaker 3: Yes. And it doesn't show the interest that would mean

772
00:46:59,919 --> 00:47:00,679
Speaker 3: a lot to me.

773
00:47:00,919 --> 00:47:02,479
Speaker 2: Has she seen anything that you've written?

774
00:47:03,199 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 3: Some things. I had a restaurant review in a magazine,

775
00:47:06,819 --> 00:47:10,639
Speaker 3: like a big national magazine. I was quite excited about that.

776
00:47:11,399 --> 00:47:13,679
Speaker 3: And my dad made a kind of big fuss about it.

777
00:47:14,659 --> 00:47:19,229
Speaker 3: And my mom... said she'd read it. But when I

778
00:47:19,309 --> 00:47:22,469
Speaker 3: asked her later, what did you think of that bit

779
00:47:22,509 --> 00:47:26,989
Speaker 3: about you? Because I'd referenced her in this article and

780
00:47:27,009 --> 00:47:28,429
Speaker 3: she didn't seem to remember.

781
00:47:29,309 --> 00:47:31,479
Speaker 1: Tell us what that was like for you, that moment

782
00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:34,639
Speaker 1: when you realized either she read it and didn't remember

783
00:47:34,819 --> 00:47:37,639
Speaker 1: or she really never read it. And especially because it

784
00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:40,459
Speaker 1: was so personal, it was something that you referenced about her.

785
00:47:40,479 --> 00:47:45,629
Speaker 3: I feel like it touched a nerve. And I've been

786
00:47:45,689 --> 00:47:48,609
Speaker 3: in this place before of feeling like I really see

787
00:47:48,649 --> 00:47:54,349
Speaker 3: you and value you, my mother. And not only do

788
00:47:54,389 --> 00:47:57,179
Speaker 3: you not see and validate me, but when I'm doing

789
00:47:57,209 --> 00:47:59,619
Speaker 3: it for you, you seem to miss it.

790
00:48:01,059 --> 00:48:05,079
Speaker 2: There are numerous ways in which you're still getting bruised,

791
00:48:05,219 --> 00:48:08,059
Speaker 2: as you said, by your mum. If you're calling twice

792
00:48:08,099 --> 00:48:10,769
Speaker 2: a week, she doesn't really need to because she's being

793
00:48:10,789 --> 00:48:15,609
Speaker 2: pursued by you, which she likes. Every time you call

794
00:48:15,809 --> 00:48:19,369
Speaker 2: and she doesn't, you get a little bruised as well.

795
00:48:19,769 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: And so part of the problem currently with your mom

796
00:48:22,479 --> 00:48:25,339
Speaker 2: is not just that you're not sure what are the

797
00:48:25,379 --> 00:48:28,139
Speaker 2: terms of relationship you can have, but it's also that

798
00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:31,039
Speaker 2: you're still getting bruised at the same time.

799
00:48:31,579 --> 00:48:33,369
Speaker 3: That sounds spot on to me.

800
00:48:34,649 --> 00:48:37,149
Speaker 1: Earlier, you said that she does have some good qualities.

801
00:48:38,429 --> 00:48:39,789
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about those?

802
00:48:41,479 --> 00:48:46,019
Speaker 3: She's had a career previously where she's been in psychiatric nursing.

803
00:48:46,179 --> 00:48:49,679
Speaker 3: She's really good at looking after, I can't believe I'm

804
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,339
Speaker 3: saying this, she can be very good at looking after

805
00:48:52,379 --> 00:48:56,019
Speaker 3: very vulnerable people in certain contexts.

806
00:48:57,399 --> 00:49:00,539
Speaker 1: What are the good qualities that she has that relate

807
00:49:00,579 --> 00:49:00,939
Speaker 1: to you?

808
00:49:00,959 --> 00:49:09,329
Speaker 3: You know, I feel guilty having such a long pause

809
00:49:09,409 --> 00:49:09,769
Speaker 3: as this.

810
00:49:11,369 --> 00:49:12,289
Speaker 1: Why do you feel guilty?

811
00:49:13,139 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 3: Because I think she's fundamentally a good person. And I

812
00:49:20,939 --> 00:49:25,019
Speaker 3: feel bad not immediately being able to identify how she's

813
00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:28,519
Speaker 3: good to me. I know she loves me. She's giving

814
00:49:28,579 --> 00:49:31,679
Speaker 3: practical help. You know, she always welcomes me into her home.

815
00:49:33,399 --> 00:49:35,019
Speaker 1: You know she loves you because... I.

816
00:49:37,819 --> 00:49:40,809
Speaker 3: Don't know. She doesn't really use that word. It's not

817
00:49:40,869 --> 00:49:43,569
Speaker 3: really something we use in our family a lot, but

818
00:49:44,529 --> 00:49:44,869
Speaker 3: she does.

819
00:49:45,209 --> 00:49:46,349
Speaker 1: She's never said, I love you?

820
00:49:47,269 --> 00:49:51,949
Speaker 3: She very rarely says, I love you. I think she

821
00:49:51,989 --> 00:49:56,609
Speaker 3: might write it in a birthday card sometimes. She tells

822
00:49:56,649 --> 00:49:57,829
Speaker 3: me she cares about me.

823
00:49:59,649 --> 00:50:01,249
Speaker 1: That's how she says it? I care about you?

824
00:50:01,929 --> 00:50:06,769
Speaker 3: She expresses that she cares for me through I'm struggling here.

825
00:50:07,449 --> 00:50:07,699
Speaker 2: Love it.

826
00:50:08,819 --> 00:50:11,699
Speaker 1: And I see that. That's why I'm asking you these questions,

827
00:50:12,299 --> 00:50:17,959
Speaker 1: because you have this idea that somehow, and it's probably

828
00:50:18,039 --> 00:50:22,909
Speaker 1: true that she loves you, but she has had great

829
00:50:23,029 --> 00:50:28,649
Speaker 1: difficulty communicating that to you and communicating it in a

830
00:50:28,689 --> 00:50:33,919
Speaker 1: way that feels loving. And so you're really scrounging here.

831
00:50:33,939 --> 00:50:38,859
Speaker 1: You got I love you in a birthday card, rarely otherwise.

832
00:50:40,119 --> 00:50:43,299
Speaker 1: You're trying to think of loving acts. You're saying maybe

833
00:50:43,379 --> 00:50:46,559
Speaker 1: she helped you practically, which is a way of showing

834
00:50:46,599 --> 00:50:53,309
Speaker 1: love as well. And it's okay that you're being made

835
00:50:53,369 --> 00:50:57,189
Speaker 1: aware in this conversation and specifically with this question of

836
00:50:57,249 --> 00:51:00,649
Speaker 1: what her limitations are. So at the same time that

837
00:51:00,669 --> 00:51:04,149
Speaker 1: we're looking at what she has to offer, it's also

838
00:51:04,189 --> 00:51:06,729
Speaker 1: good to be aware of what she can't really offer

839
00:51:08,159 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: so that you don't get, as you said, bruised every

840
00:51:11,819 --> 00:51:13,479
Speaker 1: time you don't get those things.

841
00:51:14,679 --> 00:51:16,739
Speaker 2: And I think, Melanie, that what makes it difficult and

842
00:51:16,779 --> 00:51:20,489
Speaker 2: confusing for you is that seemingly she seems to be

843
00:51:20,689 --> 00:51:23,869
Speaker 2: able to offer other people that which you wish she

844
00:51:23,889 --> 00:51:29,059
Speaker 2: would offer you. She's really concerned about your sister's mental health.

845
00:51:29,179 --> 00:51:32,979
Speaker 2: She has compassion for her patients who are struggling and suffering.

846
00:51:32,999 --> 00:51:34,979
Speaker 2: And so you see those things and you go, okay, well,

847
00:51:34,999 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: you have that. Why aren't I getting any of it?

848
00:51:39,279 --> 00:51:42,019
Speaker 2: And I think that's the confusing part.

849
00:51:44,659 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 3: That's very resonant, I think. Other people see her as

850
00:51:48,919 --> 00:51:52,859
Speaker 3: a very kind, compassionate person. You know, people love my mother.

851
00:51:52,879 --> 00:51:57,939
Speaker 3: And I think it was very confusing. And I think

852
00:51:57,979 --> 00:51:59,749
Speaker 3: for a long time, I sort of felt like there

853
00:51:59,789 --> 00:52:03,889
Speaker 3: must be something, without consciously thinking it, there must be

854
00:52:03,949 --> 00:52:08,129
Speaker 3: something wrong with me as the one not getting this.

855
00:52:10,069 --> 00:52:10,269
Speaker 1: Right.

856
00:52:10,509 --> 00:52:11,549
Speaker 2: And that is very painful.

857
00:52:12,489 --> 00:52:16,449
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea... why your mom was more

858
00:52:16,529 --> 00:52:18,409
Speaker 1: able to see what was going on with your sister

859
00:52:18,429 --> 00:52:22,949
Speaker 1: and her pain than she has been able to see yours?

860
00:52:22,969 --> 00:52:30,209
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think she was struggling herself. She

861
00:52:30,249 --> 00:52:35,979
Speaker 3: was in a lot of financial distress when she was

862
00:52:35,999 --> 00:52:40,779
Speaker 3: a single parent. She was worried about my sister. She

863
00:52:40,819 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 3: was looking after her ex-husband when he was in the

864
00:52:43,999 --> 00:52:50,409
Speaker 3: depths of alcoholism in a very involved way. And maybe

865
00:52:50,429 --> 00:52:53,769
Speaker 3: there just wasn't space and she couldn't face it. That

866
00:52:53,789 --> 00:52:56,589
Speaker 3: was the sense I got was, don't you dare give

867
00:52:56,629 --> 00:52:58,109
Speaker 3: me anything else to worry about.

868
00:52:58,449 --> 00:53:01,569
Speaker 2: And I think you heard that as a kid. And

869
00:53:01,589 --> 00:53:05,869
Speaker 2: I think you complied. That's part of the thing that

870
00:53:05,949 --> 00:53:10,329
Speaker 2: you are more resilient than your sister. That you don't

871
00:53:10,349 --> 00:53:13,389
Speaker 2: want to have that narrative because in the family it

872
00:53:13,429 --> 00:53:15,079
Speaker 2: got expressed, well, if you are, then you have no

873
00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:17,779
Speaker 2: feelings that we have to worry about. Which obviously is

874
00:53:17,819 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 2: not the case. But I think you figured out really,

875
00:53:20,979 --> 00:53:24,979
Speaker 2: really young that taking yourself to the psychiatrist at 17

876
00:53:24,979 --> 00:53:28,189
Speaker 2: by yourself, there's a real thread there with you of

877
00:53:28,309 --> 00:53:30,369
Speaker 2: I'll take care of myself. You don't have to because

878
00:53:30,389 --> 00:53:33,209
Speaker 2: I'm not getting it from you. And it's possible that

879
00:53:33,249 --> 00:53:35,639
Speaker 2: that's what she was picking up on as well. you

880
00:53:35,709 --> 00:53:38,519
Speaker 2: seem more self-sufficient. You seem more like a wind-up kid

881
00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:40,779
Speaker 2: that you just let them loose and they go. Now,

882
00:53:40,859 --> 00:53:42,679
Speaker 2: where they go is to the partying and all kinds

883
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,179
Speaker 2: of other distressing places. But I think that your sister

884
00:53:46,219 --> 00:53:51,539
Speaker 2: probably came across as needing much more than you when

885
00:53:51,559 --> 00:53:52,139
Speaker 2: you were younger.

886
00:53:52,899 --> 00:53:58,679
Speaker 3: That sounds right. And I am very self-sufficient. You know,

887
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,979
Speaker 3: I've been through a lot of really tough stuff and

888
00:54:01,519 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 3: done a lot of it all on my own.

889
00:54:04,279 --> 00:54:07,599
Speaker 2: Have you ever shared with her a vulnerability that wasn't

890
00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:13,869
Speaker 2: about the relationship? Sought her advice about something that wasn't

891
00:54:14,269 --> 00:54:17,749
Speaker 2: about her, so she had a clear runway to kind

892
00:54:17,809 --> 00:54:19,429
Speaker 2: of show up in that way?

893
00:54:19,449 --> 00:54:24,709
Speaker 3: When I'm feeling fragile, I've tended to avoid her for

894
00:54:24,749 --> 00:54:28,079
Speaker 3: all the reasons we've covered. Right. I ask her advice

895
00:54:28,159 --> 00:54:30,809
Speaker 3: about low-level stuff because I think it's a good way

896
00:54:30,829 --> 00:54:33,569
Speaker 3: to bond with someone asking their advice. So I might

897
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:37,129
Speaker 3: talk to her about decorating, for example.

898
00:54:37,189 --> 00:54:39,229
Speaker 2: Okay, and how does she do that? So she's happy

899
00:54:39,249 --> 00:54:40,809
Speaker 2: to help when it's about decorating?

900
00:54:41,029 --> 00:54:41,829
Speaker 3: She's happy to help.

901
00:54:43,189 --> 00:54:47,499
Speaker 1: Do you enjoy having that interaction with her? Or is

902
00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:50,019
Speaker 1: it more strategic? I'm going to do this because it

903
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:52,179
Speaker 1: gives us something to talk about. Or do you get

904
00:54:52,219 --> 00:54:52,879
Speaker 1: something out of it?

905
00:54:53,769 --> 00:54:56,869
Speaker 3: I don't get anything out of it emotionally necessarily, but

906
00:54:56,949 --> 00:55:00,169
Speaker 3: I derive some, I guess, enjoyment from the fact we're

907
00:55:00,429 --> 00:55:04,069
Speaker 3: having a conversation that kind of is back and forth,

908
00:55:04,109 --> 00:55:09,229
Speaker 3: like a more normal conversation for me. She's not in

909
00:55:09,269 --> 00:55:10,349
Speaker 3: broadcast mode.

910
00:55:12,589 --> 00:55:14,909
Speaker 1: Can I ask what you think might happen if you

911
00:55:16,369 --> 00:55:20,449
Speaker 1: didn't call her twice a week? Would you feel lonelier?

912
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:23,909
Speaker 1: Would you have to sit with your grief a little

913
00:55:23,939 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: bit more?

914
00:55:24,459 --> 00:55:29,149
Speaker 3: I have taken breaks from her at times.

915
00:55:30,469 --> 00:55:31,429
Speaker 1: What has it been like?

916
00:55:33,649 --> 00:55:38,489
Speaker 3: Honestly, a relief. But the longer break was after one

917
00:55:38,529 --> 00:55:43,749
Speaker 3: of those very difficult conversations that kind of went very badly.

918
00:55:43,769 --> 00:55:49,459
Speaker 1: And then did you end up calling her to reestablish

919
00:55:49,479 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: contact or how did that happen?

920
00:55:51,709 --> 00:55:55,409
Speaker 3: We re-established contact because I had some health problems and

921
00:55:56,569 --> 00:56:01,209
Speaker 3: she heard via my sister. And I felt like it

922
00:56:01,249 --> 00:56:04,139
Speaker 3: was the time to kind of let her back in

923
00:56:04,699 --> 00:56:08,979
Speaker 3: because she was worried about me. And it was nice

924
00:56:09,019 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 3: to have her interest and concern, actually. But I do sometimes,

925
00:56:16,259 --> 00:56:18,889
Speaker 3: because I'm busy and because I think, let's see what happens,

926
00:56:19,089 --> 00:56:23,259
Speaker 3: I don't call her. that regularly all the time I

927
00:56:23,619 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 3: sometimes leave it and I just say let's see if

928
00:56:27,319 --> 00:56:29,419
Speaker 3: she makes an effort and picks up the phone and

929
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,519
Speaker 3: she tends to send me a message and say when

930
00:56:33,539 --> 00:56:37,539
Speaker 3: can we talk Melanie and I tend to feel frustrated

931
00:56:37,639 --> 00:56:42,579
Speaker 3: because I want to have the kind of relationship with

932
00:56:42,639 --> 00:56:45,039
Speaker 3: my mother where we don't need to schedule times to

933
00:56:45,079 --> 00:56:48,189
Speaker 3: call each other and I'm there thinking aren't we close

934
00:56:48,249 --> 00:56:50,469
Speaker 3: enough that you can just pick up the phone If

935
00:56:50,509 --> 00:56:52,549
Speaker 3: it's a bad time, I'll just say it's a bad time.

936
00:56:52,569 --> 00:56:55,659
Speaker 3: I tried to say these kinds of things to her,

937
00:56:55,709 --> 00:56:58,539
Speaker 3: but she will do the same thing every time, which

938
00:56:58,599 --> 00:57:00,479
Speaker 3: is this very cautious text message.

939
00:57:01,679 --> 00:57:03,579
Speaker 1: You've actually told her, I would love for you to

940
00:57:03,619 --> 00:57:05,619
Speaker 1: just call me when you feel like calling me.

941
00:57:06,459 --> 00:57:08,659
Speaker 3: I maybe haven't said that I would love it. I've

942
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,029
Speaker 3: said you can, and maybe that's an important difference. It is.

943
00:57:12,989 --> 00:57:15,549
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what is it that you want at

944
00:57:15,589 --> 00:57:19,309
Speaker 1: this point from the mother that you have that would feel...

945
00:57:20,389 --> 00:57:25,229
Speaker 1: good or nourishing. It might not be what you had

946
00:57:25,289 --> 00:57:29,799
Speaker 1: hoped for all these years, but she still is there.

947
00:57:29,879 --> 00:57:33,279
Speaker 1: And it sounds like there are some aspects of being

948
00:57:33,299 --> 00:57:36,679
Speaker 1: in contact with her that could potentially feel good to you.

949
00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:39,519
Speaker 1: What do you think those are?

950
00:57:39,539 --> 00:57:45,389
Speaker 3: I would say just a little bit more of her

951
00:57:45,449 --> 00:57:49,669
Speaker 3: attention when I'm with her. I don't expect like a

952
00:57:49,989 --> 00:57:57,139
Speaker 3: total change of personality, but just a little bit more presence.

953
00:57:58,539 --> 00:58:00,479
Speaker 3: If I make the effort to go and visit her,

954
00:58:00,539 --> 00:58:05,039
Speaker 3: which is a day's travel, I'm there because I want

955
00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:09,589
Speaker 3: to connect with her. And if she could just stay

956
00:58:09,649 --> 00:58:12,069
Speaker 3: with me for a little bit longer and have a

957
00:58:12,089 --> 00:58:19,449
Speaker 3: conversation and not be flapping around the house, doing chores, doing,

958
00:58:20,109 --> 00:58:23,229
Speaker 3: sometimes it feels like doing anything else other than sitting

959
00:58:23,269 --> 00:58:24,389
Speaker 3: and catching up with me.

960
00:58:25,269 --> 00:58:28,059
Speaker 1: What if there's not a change in her, but a

961
00:58:28,119 --> 00:58:28,879
Speaker 1: change in you?

962
00:58:30,479 --> 00:58:35,619
Speaker 3: That is where I get stuck because that just isn't

963
00:58:36,419 --> 00:58:39,599
Speaker 3: a meaningful relationship to me. I don't seek out those

964
00:58:39,659 --> 00:58:42,769
Speaker 3: kinds of friendships where there's not connection.

965
00:58:44,109 --> 00:58:47,229
Speaker 1: Well, I think when we talk about meaningful relationships, One

966
00:58:47,249 --> 00:58:51,269
Speaker 1: thing that has been missing has been authenticity. That you

967
00:58:51,329 --> 00:58:53,889
Speaker 1: haven't been able to show up with the truth of

968
00:58:53,949 --> 00:58:57,109
Speaker 1: who you are. And when you do, she falls to pieces.

969
00:58:57,949 --> 00:59:01,809
Speaker 1: That scene on the beach. But what if you showed

970
00:59:02,089 --> 00:59:08,039
Speaker 1: up authentically and there was a change in you not

971
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:11,279
Speaker 1: expecting anything to happen differently with her so that if

972
00:59:11,339 --> 00:59:14,579
Speaker 1: she falls to pieces, you don't have to put her

973
00:59:14,619 --> 00:59:21,679
Speaker 1: back together. What if you became more confident in your truth?

974
00:59:23,579 --> 00:59:25,979
Speaker 1: Because you're doing that with your sister. It sounds like

975
00:59:25,999 --> 00:59:28,979
Speaker 1: you're doing that in the relationships that you're pursuing now.

976
00:59:30,339 --> 00:59:32,979
Speaker 1: That that becomes your mode of being in the world.

977
00:59:35,159 --> 00:59:37,659
Speaker 1: And that with your mom, you're not expecting her to

978
00:59:37,899 --> 00:59:44,239
Speaker 1: have a personality transplant. But you're showing up differently, knowing

979
00:59:45,399 --> 00:59:49,529
Speaker 1: that she might or might not be capable of doing

980
00:59:49,589 --> 00:59:52,809
Speaker 1: something different, but that you're not depending on it. What

981
00:59:52,829 --> 00:59:55,129
Speaker 1: you are depending on is that you're going to do

982
00:59:55,189 --> 01:00:00,189
Speaker 1: something different. That all of these patterns that you still

983
01:00:00,269 --> 01:00:03,889
Speaker 1: have around her, you're not going to uphold anymore because

984
01:00:03,909 --> 01:00:08,599
Speaker 1: they're not nourishing for you to be that way, to

985
01:00:08,639 --> 01:00:13,199
Speaker 1: be inauthentic, to hold back, to be invisible, that you're

986
01:00:13,239 --> 01:00:15,619
Speaker 1: not going to be invisible anymore. And she can do

987
01:00:15,659 --> 01:00:19,209
Speaker 1: without whatever she will. but you're not responsible for her feelings.

988
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:22,239
Speaker 1: that your visibility evokes in her.

989
01:00:23,539 --> 01:00:26,379
Speaker 3: That sounds like something I would want to aim for.

990
01:00:26,399 --> 01:00:35,689
Speaker 3: I find when I'm in her home particularly, it's such

991
01:00:35,749 --> 01:00:39,349
Speaker 3: a knee-jerk. reaction with me that I feel like I

992
01:00:39,409 --> 01:00:43,779
Speaker 3: can't control it. I feel rejected and I withdraw.

993
01:00:44,579 --> 01:00:47,279
Speaker 2: What happens when just you and her, if that happens,

994
01:00:47,679 --> 01:00:50,019
Speaker 2: go out for coffee? So she's sitting down, she can't

995
01:00:50,059 --> 01:00:53,269
Speaker 2: start busying herself with other things. She's sitting down facing

996
01:00:53,309 --> 01:00:56,389
Speaker 2: you for a chat. Does that ever happen? Do you

997
01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:58,929
Speaker 2: get more of her attention when it does, if you

998
01:00:58,949 --> 01:01:01,489
Speaker 2: do that, rather than sit in her house where she

999
01:01:01,529 --> 01:01:04,489
Speaker 2: can find a thousand things to busy herself with?

1000
01:01:07,729 --> 01:01:10,529
Speaker 3: It is better. And for that reason, I've tried to

1001
01:01:10,709 --> 01:01:15,009
Speaker 3: reduce the number of times I'm visiting her and encourage

1002
01:01:15,049 --> 01:01:18,609
Speaker 3: her to come and visit me and then go for

1003
01:01:19,189 --> 01:01:23,609
Speaker 3: coffees and meals and things. And it is better. She

1004
01:01:23,629 --> 01:01:28,049
Speaker 3: visited me a while ago and we had this really

1005
01:01:28,069 --> 01:01:32,089
Speaker 3: horrible conversation. But before that, we'd gone to this museum

1006
01:01:32,109 --> 01:01:33,649
Speaker 3: that was a lot of fun and, you know, we

1007
01:01:33,669 --> 01:01:34,269
Speaker 3: were laughing.

1008
01:01:36,269 --> 01:01:37,369
Speaker 1: So you can have fun with her?

1009
01:01:37,819 --> 01:01:38,779
Speaker 3: I can have fun with her.

1010
01:01:47,119 --> 01:01:50,819
Speaker 1: So Melanie, we have some advice for you. And we're

1011
01:01:50,839 --> 01:01:55,499
Speaker 1: going to start off with your mom. One thing that

1012
01:01:55,539 --> 01:02:00,309
Speaker 1: we talked about today was not about changing her, but

1013
01:02:00,369 --> 01:02:06,229
Speaker 1: about changing you and how you react to her. And

1014
01:02:06,309 --> 01:02:08,169
Speaker 1: one of the things that you've struggled with your whole

1015
01:02:08,229 --> 01:02:13,389
Speaker 1: life has been showing up authentically because either you would

1016
01:02:13,429 --> 01:02:17,649
Speaker 1: get hurt because you would get ignored. The subject would change.

1017
01:02:18,309 --> 01:02:20,729
Speaker 1: You wouldn't get paid attention to. You would get a

1018
01:02:20,829 --> 01:02:25,469
Speaker 1: factual question instead of an experience or feelings question. Or

1019
01:02:25,549 --> 01:02:29,269
Speaker 1: more recently, your mom would fall to pieces or get defensive.

1020
01:02:31,159 --> 01:02:35,829
Speaker 1: All of those things might still happen. But we want

1021
01:02:35,849 --> 01:02:39,269
Speaker 1: you to show up authentically anyway. Because you get hurt

1022
01:02:39,349 --> 01:02:43,249
Speaker 1: by not showing up. So you're already getting hurt. And

1023
01:02:43,269 --> 01:02:47,239
Speaker 1: I know you're trying to protect yourself. But in protecting yourself,

1024
01:02:47,659 --> 01:02:51,799
Speaker 1: you're actually doing the hurting. Because it's not protective. You

1025
01:02:51,839 --> 01:02:57,699
Speaker 1: then feel lonely, abandoned, all of those feelings. So we

1026
01:02:57,739 --> 01:03:02,559
Speaker 1: want you to be able to just be yourself. And

1027
01:03:02,879 --> 01:03:04,539
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're able to do that more with

1028
01:03:04,559 --> 01:03:06,849
Speaker 1: your sister. But we want you to do that with

1029
01:03:06,869 --> 01:03:09,969
Speaker 1: your mom as well. And part of that is going

1030
01:03:10,029 --> 01:03:14,429
Speaker 1: to involve when your mom says, how's work? You can

1031
01:03:14,469 --> 01:03:16,289
Speaker 1: tell her how work is and you can say, and

1032
01:03:16,309 --> 01:03:19,269
Speaker 1: I'm also trying to date and I'm feeling really lonely

1033
01:03:19,349 --> 01:03:21,209
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of worried about whether I'm going to

1034
01:03:21,249 --> 01:03:28,299
Speaker 1: meet someone. And if she changes the subject, you can say, hey, mom,

1035
01:03:28,979 --> 01:03:31,439
Speaker 1: I really wish that I could talk to you about this.

1036
01:03:32,949 --> 01:03:36,409
Speaker 1: When she texts you and says, when can we talk?

1037
01:03:37,729 --> 01:03:39,589
Speaker 1: You can actually say to her, we talked about this

1038
01:03:39,629 --> 01:03:43,119
Speaker 1: distinction today about the difference between you can call me

1039
01:03:43,179 --> 01:03:46,659
Speaker 1: anytime and I would really like it if you would

1040
01:03:46,699 --> 01:03:50,099
Speaker 1: just call me. That would feel really good. I would

1041
01:03:50,139 --> 01:03:52,199
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. I would love to know

1042
01:03:52,219 --> 01:03:56,499
Speaker 1: that you're thinking about me. So all of these things

1043
01:03:56,539 --> 01:03:59,149
Speaker 1: that you're not saying, we would like you to say

1044
01:03:59,369 --> 01:04:02,589
Speaker 1: and not worry about whether she's going to get defensive

1045
01:04:02,609 --> 01:04:05,319
Speaker 1: or or not respond in a way that feels nourishing

1046
01:04:05,379 --> 01:04:08,459
Speaker 1: to you, or she's going to fall to pieces. If

1047
01:04:08,539 --> 01:04:12,479
Speaker 1: she does fall to pieces, you can say, Hey mom,

1048
01:04:13,499 --> 01:04:15,259
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're not able to really talk about

1049
01:04:15,299 --> 01:04:18,159
Speaker 1: this right now. So let's talk another time. And then

1050
01:04:18,399 --> 01:04:22,649
Speaker 1: you go take a walk. You do yoga, you breathe,

1051
01:04:22,749 --> 01:04:26,549
Speaker 1: you call a friend, you do whatever feels nourishing to

1052
01:04:26,569 --> 01:04:29,649
Speaker 1: you without worrying about my mom's falling to pieces and

1053
01:04:29,709 --> 01:04:32,199
Speaker 1: I didn't put her back together. So we want you

1054
01:04:32,239 --> 01:04:34,779
Speaker 1: to try that in your interactions with her this week.

1055
01:04:34,819 --> 01:04:38,279
Speaker 1: We want you to be different, not expecting anything. And

1056
01:04:38,319 --> 01:04:41,439
Speaker 1: then here's the other part. While you're doing that, we

1057
01:04:41,479 --> 01:04:45,059
Speaker 1: want you to notice any moments of joy or even

1058
01:04:45,179 --> 01:04:48,479
Speaker 1: just fun that come up. So with your dad, it

1059
01:04:48,529 --> 01:04:51,429
Speaker 1: was really nice when he could join with you around

1060
01:04:51,449 --> 01:04:54,509
Speaker 1: your writing, even though you have no expectations that he's

1061
01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:57,429
Speaker 1: going to connect with you emotionally in the ways that

1062
01:04:57,449 --> 01:05:01,229
Speaker 1: you wish that he would. With your mom, even with

1063
01:05:01,269 --> 01:05:04,649
Speaker 1: that example where you said at the museum you had fun,

1064
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:08,329
Speaker 1: whatever it is where there are these moments where there

1065
01:05:08,449 --> 01:05:10,469
Speaker 1: is something that feels good, where I feel like I'm

1066
01:05:10,549 --> 01:05:14,249
Speaker 1: glad that I'm talking to my mom. We want you

1067
01:05:14,269 --> 01:05:16,179
Speaker 1: to notice them and we want you to write them down.

1068
01:05:16,789 --> 01:05:19,319
Speaker 1: And we want you to keep a journal. We just

1069
01:05:19,339 --> 01:05:21,499
Speaker 1: want you to start looking for those a little bit more.

1070
01:05:21,579 --> 01:05:23,179
Speaker 1: And we think you're going to see them a little

1071
01:05:23,199 --> 01:05:26,399
Speaker 1: bit more when you're not being disappointed by her reaction.

1072
01:05:26,729 --> 01:05:28,489
Speaker 1: And to be clear, you're always going to be disappointed

1073
01:05:28,529 --> 01:05:31,289
Speaker 1: by it. It's always going to hurt, but it won't

1074
01:05:31,349 --> 01:05:35,129
Speaker 1: feel as sharp when you are showing up from the

1075
01:05:35,189 --> 01:05:39,229
Speaker 1: adult place as opposed to the wounded child place. And

1076
01:05:39,269 --> 01:05:41,979
Speaker 1: along with that, we would like you to do some

1077
01:05:42,039 --> 01:05:45,799
Speaker 1: grief work because you're going to have to contend with

1078
01:05:45,839 --> 01:05:49,379
Speaker 1: the fact that your mom is who she is and

1079
01:05:49,459 --> 01:05:54,129
Speaker 1: that you did not get and probably will not get

1080
01:05:54,149 --> 01:05:57,289
Speaker 1: the kind of mothering that you would have hoped for.

1081
01:05:59,109 --> 01:06:01,269
Speaker 1: There are groups for this kind of loss. You can

1082
01:06:01,349 --> 01:06:03,989
Speaker 1: find them and maybe join with other people who have

1083
01:06:04,029 --> 01:06:06,769
Speaker 1: had similar experiences so that you can really kind of

1084
01:06:06,889 --> 01:06:11,279
Speaker 1: let go of those expectations by grieving it, not by

1085
01:06:11,419 --> 01:06:14,319
Speaker 1: shutting it down or compartmentalizing it, which is what you've

1086
01:06:14,339 --> 01:06:16,659
Speaker 1: done or drugs that you used to do or the

1087
01:06:16,739 --> 01:06:18,919
Speaker 1: not eating, all the ways that you tried to deal

1088
01:06:18,959 --> 01:06:20,459
Speaker 1: with it. We want you to deal with it head

1089
01:06:20,639 --> 01:06:23,969
Speaker 1: on by really going into that sadness and that grief.

1090
01:06:24,629 --> 01:06:26,649
Speaker 1: so that you're able to let it go more gently.

1091
01:06:28,369 --> 01:06:32,489
Speaker 2: Two other quick parts. Number one, with your sister, we

1092
01:06:32,749 --> 01:06:35,259
Speaker 2: would like you to have a chat with her this week.

1093
01:06:36,239 --> 01:06:40,039
Speaker 2: And you're feeling stressed about being able to find someone

1094
01:06:40,139 --> 01:06:42,319
Speaker 2: and you really want to find someone and kind of

1095
01:06:42,399 --> 01:06:45,939
Speaker 2: share that with her. We think that you've gotten so

1096
01:06:45,979 --> 01:06:48,599
Speaker 2: much closer and there's still a little bit more closeness

1097
01:06:48,639 --> 01:06:50,879
Speaker 2: that you can have with her because even with her,

1098
01:06:50,919 --> 01:06:53,729
Speaker 2: you're holding back a bit. That again, that habit from

1099
01:06:53,789 --> 01:06:56,469
Speaker 2: childhood of, I can manage me. I don't have to

1100
01:06:56,729 --> 01:07:00,789
Speaker 2: lean on anyone. There's still some more to unwind there

1101
01:07:00,809 --> 01:07:04,229
Speaker 2: with your sister. So she knows how you feel and

1102
01:07:04,369 --> 01:07:07,219
Speaker 2: maybe she realizes that, but it's different for you to

1103
01:07:07,259 --> 01:07:08,899
Speaker 2: be able to say it and for her to be

1104
01:07:08,939 --> 01:07:12,659
Speaker 2: able to hear it and respond hopefully in a compassionate way.

1105
01:07:13,539 --> 01:07:16,019
Speaker 2: The last thing we'd like you to do, we'd like

1106
01:07:16,039 --> 01:07:18,199
Speaker 2: you to do because we think it would be really

1107
01:07:18,559 --> 01:07:21,959
Speaker 2: good if you could find other women, even maybe slightly

1108
01:07:22,099 --> 01:07:27,319
Speaker 2: older women who you could have friendships with and get

1109
01:07:27,359 --> 01:07:29,699
Speaker 2: that experience, the one that you really never had quite

1110
01:07:30,259 --> 01:07:33,059
Speaker 2: with your mom. And we think one of the best

1111
01:07:33,139 --> 01:07:35,909
Speaker 2: ways for you to do that is to find and

1112
01:07:35,969 --> 01:07:39,749
Speaker 2: join a women's writing group. You're trying to become a writer.

1113
01:07:40,269 --> 01:07:44,069
Speaker 2: Writers need that support regardless and get to know the

1114
01:07:44,089 --> 01:07:47,019
Speaker 2: people in the group because people do get friendly and

1115
01:07:47,099 --> 01:07:49,699
Speaker 2: close in a group. Your writing is often very personal

1116
01:07:49,859 --> 01:07:52,779
Speaker 2: and you're sharing personal things. So we'd like you to

1117
01:07:52,839 --> 01:07:55,259
Speaker 2: do that as well, to validate the new endeavor and

1118
01:07:55,279 --> 01:08:00,099
Speaker 2: to perhaps create the possibility of new relationships of people

1119
01:08:00,139 --> 01:08:02,399
Speaker 2: that you can show up to authentically.

1120
01:08:02,419 --> 01:08:06,609
Speaker 3: That's a really nice idea. I can do that.

1121
01:08:07,129 --> 01:08:10,989
Speaker 2: And remember, the bar for success is you showing up authentically,

1122
01:08:11,389 --> 01:08:14,649
Speaker 2: not how your mom responds, just how you do.

1123
01:08:15,529 --> 01:08:17,949
Speaker 1: We want you to treat yourself the way that you

1124
01:08:17,989 --> 01:08:21,219
Speaker 1: were not treated growing up. We want you to treat

1125
01:08:21,239 --> 01:08:28,349
Speaker 1: yourself with openness and compassion and kindness and authenticity the

1126
01:08:28,389 --> 01:08:30,669
Speaker 1: more you treat yourself that way the more that's going

1127
01:08:30,689 --> 01:08:33,829
Speaker 1: to be the people that you surround yourself with and

1128
01:08:33,849 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 1: if you can do it with your mom without the

1129
01:08:35,579 --> 01:08:38,319
Speaker 1: expectations you will be able to do it with other

1130
01:08:38,379 --> 01:08:42,579
Speaker 1: people where there are expectations and they do meet them that.

1131
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:47,059
Speaker 2: Makes sense we really look forward to hearing how this

1132
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:49,079
Speaker 2: goes for you and how it feels to you to

1133
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:52,179
Speaker 2: show up authentically Thank you.

1134
01:08:52,199 --> 01:08:54,839
Speaker 3: And thank you both very much for your advice.

1135
01:09:00,879 --> 01:09:04,839
Speaker 2: What I thought was really impressive about Melanie is that

1136
01:09:04,999 --> 01:09:08,819
Speaker 2: she has already started this journey a couple of years

1137
01:09:08,879 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 2: ago and has already made significant progress. She's challenging herself

1138
01:09:13,599 --> 01:09:17,369
Speaker 2: in all kinds of ways. She's trying to set standards

1139
01:09:17,429 --> 01:09:21,339
Speaker 2: in her dating and she's really trying to recover. from

1140
01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:24,719
Speaker 2: this very, very difficult childhood. And that I think the

1141
01:09:24,739 --> 01:09:28,319
Speaker 2: missing piece has been so far, this relationship with her mother.

1142
01:09:28,359 --> 01:09:31,559
Speaker 2: So I'm really hopeful that this helps her because I

1143
01:09:31,579 --> 01:09:34,839
Speaker 2: think she's been working on herself in all kinds of ways.

1144
01:09:34,899 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 2: And I think this would really be the last piece

1145
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,499
Speaker 2: that she needs to really start tackling.

1146
01:09:40,779 --> 01:09:42,699
Speaker 1: Right. And when you say the relationship with her mother,

1147
01:09:42,779 --> 01:09:44,539
Speaker 1: I think what we're both talking about is really her

1148
01:09:44,559 --> 01:09:49,139
Speaker 1: relationship with herself, being able to grieve the relationship with

1149
01:09:49,209 --> 01:09:54,139
Speaker 1: the mother and be able to be there for herself

1150
01:09:54,539 --> 01:09:57,619
Speaker 1: in a way that her mother is not able to

1151
01:09:57,659 --> 01:10:01,259
Speaker 1: be there for her. And then to also free herself

1152
01:10:01,379 --> 01:10:05,189
Speaker 1: up to enjoy the aspects of that relationship so that

1153
01:10:05,249 --> 01:10:08,889
Speaker 1: she does get something from that relationship, but she'll get

1154
01:10:08,949 --> 01:10:13,239
Speaker 1: the much deeper nourishment from her other relationships that we

1155
01:10:13,279 --> 01:10:16,299
Speaker 1: are encouraging her to pursue as well.

1156
01:10:20,959 --> 01:10:24,099
Speaker 2: You're listening to dear therapists we'll be back after a

1157
01:10:24,139 --> 01:10:24,739
Speaker 2: short break.

1158
01:10:36,219 --> 01:10:39,019
Speaker 1: So we heard back from Melanie and here's what happened

1159
01:10:39,039 --> 01:10:39,719
Speaker 1: with her this week.

1160
01:10:40,519 --> 01:10:43,939
Speaker 3: Hi Laurie and Guy. So I have a quick update

1161
01:10:43,959 --> 01:10:48,179
Speaker 3: for you. I will just dive right in with the

1162
01:10:48,219 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 3: authenticity because that felt like the most important aspect of

1163
01:10:53,759 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 3: it to me. I had a call with my sister

1164
01:10:58,499 --> 01:11:02,759
Speaker 3: and I guess I kind of warmed up by sharing

1165
01:11:03,179 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 3: some of my emotional experience around health problems I've had

1166
01:11:06,509 --> 01:11:10,389
Speaker 3: recently which have been very stressful and at times I've

1167
01:11:10,429 --> 01:11:14,869
Speaker 3: been quite upset and worried and I think normally I

1168
01:11:15,029 --> 01:11:19,029
Speaker 3: realised I would really kind of gloss over this and

1169
01:11:19,089 --> 01:11:21,669
Speaker 3: I didn't and I shared it and I also told

1170
01:11:21,709 --> 01:11:25,699
Speaker 3: her about the loneliness thing and worrying about whether I'll

1171
01:11:25,759 --> 01:11:30,989
Speaker 3: meet someone again for a relationship so that felt good.

1172
01:11:31,649 --> 01:11:35,769
Speaker 3: And in response, she opened up a bit more to

1173
01:11:35,809 --> 01:11:38,469
Speaker 3: me in that call. So I wanted to say thank

1174
01:11:38,509 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 3: you for bringing that to my attention, that relationship could

1175
01:11:43,559 --> 01:11:48,919
Speaker 3: be further improved because it's really important to me. I've

1176
01:11:48,959 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 3: also been working on it with my mum. I had

1177
01:11:53,599 --> 01:11:56,509
Speaker 3: a call with her and I also shared this thing

1178
01:11:56,589 --> 01:12:01,609
Speaker 3: about feeling lonely and and increasingly lonely over the last

1179
01:12:01,669 --> 01:12:05,199
Speaker 3: year and wanting to meet someone. And she said some

1180
01:12:05,219 --> 01:12:09,319
Speaker 3: things that were pretty comforting, actually. They were fairly generic things,

1181
01:12:09,399 --> 01:12:11,059
Speaker 3: but it's the kind of thing I like to hear

1182
01:12:11,679 --> 01:12:17,099
Speaker 3: on this issue. So that was good too. Again, I've

1183
01:12:17,159 --> 01:12:21,419
Speaker 3: noticed I'm being more authentic in other areas. So today,

1184
01:12:21,459 --> 01:12:25,219
Speaker 3: for example, I initiated a difficult conversation with my manager

1185
01:12:25,259 --> 01:12:27,919
Speaker 3: at work that I'd been putting off for a while.

1186
01:12:29,289 --> 01:12:31,569
Speaker 3: And there is something I'm thinking about with my dad

1187
01:12:31,629 --> 01:12:36,199
Speaker 3: as well. He's supposed to be visiting me when I

1188
01:12:36,239 --> 01:12:39,219
Speaker 3: go to Europe for a couple of months next week.

1189
01:12:40,179 --> 01:12:43,399
Speaker 3: And I've just had in my head that I really

1190
01:12:44,019 --> 01:12:48,569
Speaker 3: don't like being around him when he's drinking. He can

1191
01:12:48,609 --> 01:12:52,009
Speaker 3: get a bit melancholy and I don't like it. I mean,

1192
01:12:52,049 --> 01:12:54,089
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I'm going to actually say anything to him,

1193
01:12:54,289 --> 01:12:57,369
Speaker 3: but I've just said to myself, I'm not going to

1194
01:12:57,409 --> 01:12:59,529
Speaker 3: pretend to enjoy that anymore and I'm not going to

1195
01:12:59,589 --> 01:13:02,089
Speaker 3: kind of sit around and watch it. And I think

1196
01:13:02,129 --> 01:13:05,919
Speaker 3: that is more authentic. So I think I feel good.

1197
01:13:06,059 --> 01:13:09,279
Speaker 3: I feel more optimistic and I'm going to keep going.

1198
01:13:10,379 --> 01:13:12,879
Speaker 3: The grief work and the women's group, I was just

1199
01:13:12,919 --> 01:13:14,659
Speaker 3: going to put on hold for a couple of months

1200
01:13:15,639 --> 01:13:18,739
Speaker 3: while I have this nice trip to Italy. But I've

1201
01:13:18,839 --> 01:13:23,209
Speaker 3: looked at groups and I will schedule that for when

1202
01:13:23,249 --> 01:13:28,319
Speaker 3: I'm back. Thank you. I really am so grateful for

1203
01:13:28,339 --> 01:13:31,639
Speaker 3: the time that you gave me and your advice.

1204
01:13:36,179 --> 01:13:38,399
Speaker 1: What struck me about Melanie is that she's wanted for

1205
01:13:38,539 --> 01:13:41,989
Speaker 1: so long to have an authentic relationship with the people

1206
01:13:42,029 --> 01:13:45,929
Speaker 1: in her family. And within the span of a week,

1207
01:13:46,429 --> 01:13:51,189
Speaker 1: she took some great risks and actually got some great

1208
01:13:51,569 --> 01:13:55,309
Speaker 1: reward for taking those risks. I agree.

1209
01:13:55,349 --> 01:13:58,449
Speaker 2: And the fact that she generalized our advice to do

1210
01:13:58,489 --> 01:14:03,049
Speaker 2: that at work as well just shows how much she

1211
01:14:03,089 --> 01:14:06,679
Speaker 2: really got that. I do hope she speaks up, though,

1212
01:14:06,959 --> 01:14:10,659
Speaker 2: to her dad when she's on holiday and when he's

1213
01:14:10,699 --> 01:14:13,459
Speaker 2: there and if he's drinking. She has the awareness right now.

1214
01:14:13,519 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 2: She said, I don't have to be present for it.

1215
01:14:15,669 --> 01:14:19,809
Speaker 2: But I really hope she'll find the gumption to voice something,

1216
01:14:19,849 --> 01:14:22,169
Speaker 2: because I think that would be very much in line

1217
01:14:22,189 --> 01:14:23,989
Speaker 2: with what we're asking her to do.

1218
01:14:25,159 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you could hear there's some kind of shift

1219
01:14:27,519 --> 01:14:29,359
Speaker 1: going on inside of her. You can hear it in

1220
01:14:29,399 --> 01:14:32,679
Speaker 1: the way that she talked about these experiences. I love

1221
01:14:32,699 --> 01:14:35,799
Speaker 1: that her sister opened up to her as well when

1222
01:14:35,839 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 1: she opened up to her sister. And I like too

1223
01:14:38,519 --> 01:14:41,139
Speaker 1: that she got some comfort from her mom. Maybe it

1224
01:14:41,209 --> 01:14:44,769
Speaker 1: isn't the perfect response, but it did offer her some comfort.

1225
01:14:45,169 --> 01:14:48,149
Speaker 1: And again, it was a first conversation. There's so much

1226
01:14:48,269 --> 01:14:51,989
Speaker 1: room for this to grow when she shows up as

1227
01:14:52,069 --> 01:14:54,949
Speaker 1: her true self. It gives her so much more power

1228
01:14:55,009 --> 01:14:58,619
Speaker 1: and so much more flexibility in all of these relationships.

1229
01:14:58,659 --> 01:15:00,739
Speaker 1: So I agree with you. I hope she does this

1230
01:15:00,759 --> 01:15:04,139
Speaker 1: with her father as well. And I do hope that

1231
01:15:04,659 --> 01:15:09,299
Speaker 1: she joins a writing group with women because I think

1232
01:15:09,339 --> 01:15:11,959
Speaker 1: that that will give her even more places to practice

1233
01:15:11,999 --> 01:15:16,299
Speaker 1: this authenticity and to do something that feels authentic to her,

1234
01:15:16,339 --> 01:15:19,509
Speaker 1: which is writing. So for a week's assignment, I think

1235
01:15:19,549 --> 01:15:22,529
Speaker 1: she did magnificently. And I think that she is on

1236
01:15:22,549 --> 01:15:29,929
Speaker 1: the path to do so much more. Next week, we're

1237
01:15:29,969 --> 01:15:32,789
Speaker 1: in session with Anna and Chris, a young married couple

1238
01:15:32,829 --> 01:15:35,119
Speaker 1: who came to us after Anna, who was pregnant with

1239
01:15:35,129 --> 01:15:38,099
Speaker 1: their first child, discovered that Chris had been lying to her.

1240
01:15:38,519 --> 01:15:40,799
Speaker 3: When I see tons and tons of messages to this

1241
01:15:40,959 --> 01:15:44,259
Speaker 3: local worker and asking things like, how was your day?

1242
01:15:44,279 --> 01:15:46,219
Speaker 1: Wow, yes, it was platonic.

1243
01:15:46,279 --> 01:15:49,239
Speaker 3: Technically, for me, it was so hurtful because it felt

1244
01:15:49,259 --> 01:15:54,409
Speaker 3: like there is sincere and emotional void being filled by

1245
01:15:54,689 --> 01:15:55,379
Speaker 3: talking to her.

1246
01:15:56,349 --> 01:15:59,409
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1247
01:15:59,469 --> 01:16:02,349
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please

1248
01:16:02,389 --> 01:16:05,049
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapist by telling your friends about it

1249
01:16:05,329 --> 01:16:08,569
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1250
01:16:08,609 --> 01:16:09,789
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1251
01:16:10,749 --> 01:16:12,849
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1252
01:16:13,309 --> 01:16:20,079
Speaker 2: email us at laurieandguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is

1253
01:16:20,159 --> 01:16:24,679
Speaker 2: Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional

1254
01:16:24,759 --> 01:16:29,339
Speaker 2: editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington, and Zachary Fisher.

1255
01:16:29,819 --> 01:16:34,429
Speaker 2: Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez, and Silver Lifton.

1256
01:16:35,049 --> 01:16:38,609
Speaker 2: And special thanks to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric.

1257
01:16:39,049 --> 01:16:41,149
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at our next session.

1258
01:16:41,889 --> 01:16:44,539
Speaker 2: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.