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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints. Emilindri Shinski joined today

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Speaker 3: from the West Coast at a very early hour. But

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Speaker 3: my co host Ryan Grimm, who's in the middle of

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Speaker 3: a book tour for his fantastic new book, which is

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Speaker 3: out this week. Ryan, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's funny being out here in Los Angeles is such

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Speaker 1: a failed experiment. But the cars just don't move. It's

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Speaker 1: hilarious in just everything. I mean, the weather is absolutely wonderful,

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Speaker 1: But I think I spent more time just sitting in

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Speaker 1: bumper to bumper traffic yesterday than doing anything else. One

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Speaker 1: story house.

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Speaker 3: It was a failed experiment in democratic socialism. I thought

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Speaker 3: we had you for just a moment.

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Speaker 4: Let's go with that.

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Speaker 3: H Okay, Well, you have been busy on, for example, CNN,

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Speaker 3: we're going to play a clip of that, and your

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Speaker 3: book has made news across the media. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: to talk about, and actually, as we have been discussing,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot to talk about when it comes to

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Speaker 3: our first story today, which is Israel. So we're going

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Speaker 3: to get to some of the reports from your book

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Speaker 3: as we discuss the news out of Israel this morning.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about Vladimir Putin meeting with the

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Speaker 3: Saudis and the UAE today. That's huge news, obviously has

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Speaker 3: big implications. You'll notice that we're almost in an American

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Speaker 3: election year, so there's probably some important details to get

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Speaker 3: to when it comes to those negotiations, which are supposed

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Speaker 3: to be about oil, they're going to be about Israel

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Speaker 3: and you as well. According to spokesman for Putin, we're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about what Ryan has dubbed a shallow fake,

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Speaker 3: not a deep fake, but a shallow fake as it

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Speaker 3: relates to his reporting on Imran Khan with his colleague

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Speaker 3: Martaza Hussein over at the Intercept. Tommy Tuberville, senator from Alabama,

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Speaker 3: has officially dropped his hold on military nominations so that's

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Speaker 3: been going since March. Huge news on the Hill and

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Speaker 3: there's a lot to talk about there too. We're going

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Speaker 3: to be talking about the news that came out just

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Speaker 3: yesterday that House Republicans they don't really have much going on,

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Speaker 3: of course, you know, there's nothing to do. They don't

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Speaker 3: have to fund the government. But they will be starting

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Speaker 3: their impeachment inquiry formally next week. We'll talk about what

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Speaker 3: it means that it's going to be formally open. There's

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Speaker 3: certainly a lot to deal with when it comes to

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Speaker 3: Hunter Biden. There's no shortage of potential avenues for investigation.

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Speaker 3: We're also excited to talk to Stuart Reid, who's the

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Speaker 3: author of a new book called The La Mumba Plot

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Speaker 3: about the CIA's role in the assassination of Lamumba. If

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Speaker 3: you don't know the story, please stick around and watch

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Speaker 3: the interview because Stewart Read's book is so interesting and

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Speaker 3: important and relevant. Now, Ryan, we should get to the news.

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Speaker 4: Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So since these hostages, since some of the hostages

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Speaker 1: have been released, they've been pressing hard to meet with

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Speaker 1: net Yah who's War Cabinet, and finally agreed to meet

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Speaker 1: with them.

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Speaker 4: Yesterday, and it sounds like there were fireworks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's put the first element up on the screen.

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Speaker 3: I've actually in my notes bolded some of the key

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Speaker 3: quotes from these meetings. This is an article that we're

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Speaker 3: reading from from the Times of Israel yesterday. Just the

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Speaker 3: headline says, so much chaos and yelling. Freed hostages family

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Speaker 3: members clash with Netan Yahoo in meeting. So a marketly

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Speaker 3: tense meeting, the Time says, was held Tuesday between a

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Speaker 3: group of recently released hostages as well as family members

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Speaker 3: of those still in Gaza and Prime Minister Benjamin and Yahoo,

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Speaker 3: as well as other members of the war cabinet. Now,

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Speaker 3: one interesting detail that the Times of Israel's reporting is

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Speaker 3: Netanyaho showed up late for the meeting. So they were

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Speaker 3: supposed to start at three pm, and Netanyahu and people

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Speaker 3: showed up at three forty five pm. And the quote

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Speaker 3: is they let us get mad from a source and

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Speaker 3: fight amongst ourselves. I left in the middle. It's not acceptable.

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Speaker 3: As Ryan said, they have been demanding this for a

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Speaker 3: long time. This came after on the heels of all

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Speaker 3: of those demands. Some of the audio from the meeting leaked.

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Speaker 3: Net and Yahoo could be heard telling the families as

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Speaker 3: the time says, quote, there's no possibility right now to

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Speaker 3: bring everyone home. Can anyone really imagine that if that

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Speaker 3: was an option, anyone would refuse it? He also said

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Speaker 3: that they are He said something to the extent of

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Speaker 3: these are demands that even you wouldn't take. That's a

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Speaker 3: net and yah, who I'm paraphrasing him there, but that's yeah.

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Speaker 3: He said. Basically, you know, even you, the people who

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Speaker 3: are former hostages or whose family is still held hostage

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Speaker 3: or recently released hostages, even you wouldn't take this deal.

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Speaker 3: The numbers, by the way of hostages are also I

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Speaker 3: mean were now how many have been released? About one

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Speaker 3: hundred and five I think have been released. One hundred

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Speaker 3: and five civilians released from lost captivity. That's eighty three Israelis,

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Speaker 3: twenty three Thai nationals, and one Filipino. So they think

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Speaker 3: right now about one hundred and thirty eight hostages remain

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Speaker 3: in Gaza, including around twenty women. One other statement I

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Speaker 3: want to read before I get your thoughts on this, Ryan.

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Speaker 3: This is from more of the leak to audio and

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Speaker 3: it was a recording actually aired by Channel twelve. Quote,

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Speaker 3: I was there I know how hard it is. It's

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Speaker 3: hard in captivity. Every day you don't know. She says,

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Speaker 3: you have no idea what you're doing there, and I

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Speaker 3: know the conditions they're holding the men in are worse

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Speaker 3: worse for the women. Another one went and talked about

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse, and then another said, quote, you have no

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Speaker 3: idea what's even going on there at all. You claim

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Speaker 3: that you have intelligent but intelligence, but the fact is

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Speaker 3: we were bombed huge, hugely consequential meeting for net and Yahoo,

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Speaker 3: don't you think, Ryan, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I thought that in particular was quite striking because as

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Speaker 1: this ceasefire went on, you know, every day there would

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Speaker 1: be you know, a trickle of hostages released, and you

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Speaker 1: can only imagine from the Israeli families perspective, how you

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Speaker 1: know what that must be like. You're just holding your breath,

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Speaker 1: hoping that you know in the next release will be

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Speaker 1: your your love, some of your loved ones, or all

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Speaker 1: of your loved ones. And as a day goes by

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Speaker 1: and you know your family members are not in that,

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Speaker 1: then you're praying that the ceasefire goes so that there's

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Speaker 1: another day so this kind of cruel lottery can continue

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Speaker 1: to unfold where you're you're hoping that, hoping against hope

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Speaker 1: that eventually they will be released. And those Israeli families

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Speaker 1: are some of the people that I thought about first

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Speaker 1: when Israel resumed the bombing, because that much must have

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Speaker 1: been just such a crushing blow, because you know that

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Speaker 1: that hope that the next day their family might come

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Speaker 1: home is is dashed by the resumption of the bombing

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Speaker 1: and the and the end of these talks. And then

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Speaker 1: to find out from these hostages that they were getting

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Speaker 1: pounded by bombs the entire time or a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of time as well, is that much more poignant. And

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Speaker 1: one of the hostages told Yaho, Hamas slept through your

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Speaker 1: airstrikes like they kept us awake at night. They rattled us,

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Speaker 1: but they just slept through it. They mean nothing to you,

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Speaker 1: which gets in then to this question of negotiations. Nen

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Speaker 1: Yah hasn't said what Hamas is demanding, you know, in

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Speaker 1: exchange for this Hamas has floated, you know, a permanent

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Speaker 1: ceasefire in exchange for release of the hostages. I suspect

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Speaker 1: that he's wrong and that the families would actually agree

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Speaker 1: to that.

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Speaker 4: What's your what was your read on it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean especially because the Biden administration is now

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Speaker 3: pressuring Yahoo, reportedly saying that their target for the end

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Speaker 3: of the sort of assault on Gaza is the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the new year. So that's a matter of weeks.

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Speaker 3: And as these numbers show, there's still a lot of

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Speaker 3: hostages in Gaza. So if net and Yaho's saying that

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Speaker 3: his primary goal here is, you know, to eradicate Hamas

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Speaker 3: and get back all of these hostages, and Israeli media

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Speaker 3: is blanketing the airwaves with these quotes and in leaked audio,

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Speaker 3: I mean something as visceral as the leaked audio of

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Speaker 3: people being unhappy with Net Nyah who questioning the strategy

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Speaker 3: of their own government. Again, it gets to something. This

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Speaker 3: is a point I think it's excellent that you make

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Speaker 3: all of the time. It's it's actually criticism of net

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Speaker 3: and Yaho and of the Israeli government is often much

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Speaker 3: more pitched in Israel from either the right or from

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Speaker 3: the left. Then you're sort of allowed to operate within

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Speaker 3: the kind of boundaries in the United States, and that's

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Speaker 3: important for Net and Yahoo as the US. If the

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Speaker 3: US we talked about this last week President Biden, at

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Speaker 3: least from his his statements says that he's been sort

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Speaker 3: of taking public stances that allow him to negotiate with

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Speaker 3: Netanyahu privately. So if he is trying to end the

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Speaker 3: conflict earlier than the Israeli government would like to, and

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Speaker 3: you have hostages questioning the strategy and that being blanketed

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Speaker 3: on Israeli media, that's a huge, I mean, obviously a

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Speaker 3: huge problem for Netanya, who is already under a huge

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Speaker 3: amount of pressure to answer questions about how the attack,

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Speaker 3: how the security was breached on October seventh in the first.

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Speaker 1: Place, and he's crossed pressured, like you say, and there

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Speaker 1: might be apparently there is kind of more pressure coming

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Speaker 1: from the wing of the Israeli public that that wants

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Speaker 1: vengeance and net Ya, who seems to be just exploiting

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Speaker 1: that anger in order to not save his political career

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Speaker 1: because he might be finished but just extended.

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Speaker 4: He's just living to fight another day.

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Speaker 1: He also, making the situation that much or bizarre, has

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Speaker 1: these corruption charges hanging over his head, so that if

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Speaker 1: he when he if and when he ever does leave office,

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Speaker 1: he has to confront those corruption charges, and so he

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Speaker 1: has this extra incentive to just do whatever he can

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Speaker 1: kind of take us a step forward day by day

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Speaker 1: and the number one song, and this is just an

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Speaker 1: indication into how much kind of thirst there is for

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Speaker 1: vengeance right now among the Israeli public and.

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Speaker 4: The number ones. Have you seen this the number one

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Speaker 4: rap song?

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Speaker 1: Is this like insane, like genocidal hip hip hop song

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Speaker 1: that even by the end of the song is like

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Speaker 1: calling for like Bella hadid to get wiped out.

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Speaker 4: It's like people can kind of google it and find

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Speaker 4: this song. I would.

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Speaker 1: You can find like a rough translation of it, but

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Speaker 1: it's just wild and it's but it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: real window into kind of the politics on the ground

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Speaker 1: and what I was dealing with as the ceasefire.

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Speaker 4: Was going on.

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Speaker 1: If you remember ben Vere, I mean I believe Church

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Speaker 1: as well. We're both hinting like if this war doesn't

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Speaker 1: resume soon that you know, we're going to bring the

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Speaker 1: government down. You had some of his right wing cabinet

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Speaker 1: members the very beginning saying we have to not what

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Speaker 1: did he say, We'd have to to not consider over

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Speaker 1: much the life of the hostages. We have to be

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Speaker 1: very brutal in our calculations here. It's unfortunate, but we're

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Speaker 1: just going to have to you know, they will also

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Speaker 1: be kind of collateral damage in this, in this bombing

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Speaker 1: campaign against the mass which has now picked up with

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Speaker 1: a renewed ferocity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't think anybody would make the argument,

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Speaker 3: of course, that Yahoo was in some sort of like

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Speaker 3: easy position either before October seventh or after politically practically,

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Speaker 3: I mean, no matter what difficult situation, but nobody is

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Speaker 3: happy with him, and for very good reason. This has

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Speaker 3: basically lost public support, and that's in so many ways

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Speaker 3: his own fault. And when you're losing public support, I mean,

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Speaker 3: even the Israeli left was a set some parts of

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Speaker 3: the Israeli left were upset with talk that there was

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Speaker 3: going to be an indefinite cease fire. And we're interested

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Speaker 3: in what Bengavir had been saying about bringing down the

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Speaker 3: government because they're so outraged by the way NETANYAHUO has

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Speaker 3: handled the war and by how negotiations have gone. And

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Speaker 3: public opinion is just so crucial. Public support in Israel

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Speaker 3: and in the West is so crucial, and this is

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Speaker 3: not helpful obviously, right.

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Speaker 1: And nat Yah, who's been in power, you know, basically

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Speaker 1: since the nineteen nineties, with a couple of breaks, and

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Speaker 1: he's been able to basically enact his idea about how

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Speaker 1: to handle the occupation, and he has consistently said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm the guy who can prevent a Palestinian state from forming,

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Speaker 1: and what I will do instead is divide the Palestinians,

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Speaker 1: and I will manage the conflict and we will kind

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Speaker 1: of very slowly to facto and then eventually legally well

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Speaker 1: quote unquote legally a next more and more Palestinian land.

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Speaker 1: That you can do that and be secure at the

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Speaker 1: same time. That was his promise to the Israeli public.

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Speaker 1: He's had an opportunity to kind of enact that vision,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we've seen it, you know, blow up,

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Speaker 1: blow up in his face, which is why you're seeing

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Speaker 1: so much blowback from him, and now you're seeing so

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Speaker 1: much of it and kind of blowback at the Palestinian population.

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Speaker 1: Should we talk about the way that it's kind of

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Speaker 1: unfolding in the Western press with this kind of fascinating

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Speaker 1: Jake Tapper interview.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we should definitely move on to this clip from CNN.

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Speaker 3: You see Jake Tapper pressing a representative from Israel actually

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Speaker 3: on tragedy that happened to a CNN producer. Let's roll this.

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Speaker 5: Side, the idea of really has done everything that is

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Speaker 5: humanly possible to try to safeguard innocent civilians.

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Speaker 6: It's very hard to believe that, especially on a day

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Speaker 6: when one of our producers lost nine members of his family.

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Speaker 4: Nine members of his family who were.

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Speaker 6: Not members of Commas, not members of the Palestinian Islamics

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Speaker 6: you hide, not members of any group, just nine people

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Speaker 6: just trying to live their lives.

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Speaker 5: First of all, I extend my sorrow to him and

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Speaker 5: my sympathies. But if I saw your report correctly, and

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Speaker 5: please correct me if I says something wrong that happened

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Speaker 5: in northern Gaza, in Gaza City where a month ago

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Speaker 5: we already asked all the civilians to leave and most

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Speaker 5: of them did. If there was like one million, two

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Speaker 5: hundred thousand people there, there was only a couple of

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Speaker 5: tens of thousands left, And one has to ask, yes,

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Speaker 5: they had an ample opportunity to leave. I don't know

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Speaker 5: what happened. I don't have the specific circumstances. I know

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Speaker 5: there's deadly combat going on now in the north still

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Speaker 5: between these IDF and CAMAS Terrists, yes, and we don't

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Speaker 5: want to see anyone caught up in the crossfire. But

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Speaker 5: why didn't they heed the advice?

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Speaker 6: And are they can't blame them, there's nown't blame them,

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Speaker 6: But you can't just fighting in the south now where

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Speaker 6: I mean, I've been asking this since October seventh. Where

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Speaker 6: these people supposed to go?

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Speaker 3: Well, the point about fighting in the south is absolutely

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Speaker 3: critical there.

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Speaker 1: Ryan, Yeah, And I think you know, let's assume, let's

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Speaker 1: imagine a world in which the IDF had given you

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Speaker 1: ample warning, had provided genuine safe corridors for for passage.

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Speaker 1: I had had had provided places for people to go

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Speaker 1: where they could guarantee that they would be safe and

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Speaker 1: that you know, you know, humanitarian and that their humanitarian

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Speaker 1: needs would be met, and that they guaranteed that once

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Speaker 1: this was over. Uh, there they would have the right

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Speaker 1: to return to their homes. In that situation, you could

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Speaker 1: you could say, look, people who didn't take that warning

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Speaker 1: were taking on some serious risk. But none of those

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Speaker 1: conditions were met.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: They you know, Israeli, the Serraelis did not offer a

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Speaker 1: safe corridors.

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Speaker 4: So those corridors often struck themselves.

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Speaker 1: Uh, they did not offer kind of safe places where

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Speaker 1: they could go. They they've bombed kind of un places

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Speaker 1: they've they've been bombing communis in and the Rafa crossing,

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Speaker 1: you know, since the very beginning. These are the places

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Speaker 1: in the south where they've told people to go. Everyone

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Speaker 1: in Goz that knows somebody who evacuated the north went

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Speaker 1: to the south and was either killed on the way

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Speaker 1: or or killed in the south. And they also have

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Speaker 1: are not provided, you know, providing for the humanitarian needs

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Speaker 1: of people in these places. They are instead making sure

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Speaker 1: that the civilian infrastructure has been basically, you know, eradicated,

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Speaker 1: so that you know, sewage treatment uh is non existent,

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Speaker 1: disease is you know, just just is rampant, uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: if they're lucky one hundred trucks with humanitarian supplies or

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Speaker 1: getting in on a on a daily basis for two

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Speaker 1: for two million people, cutting off water, you know, taking

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Speaker 1: the already low calorie counts, you know, significantly down. And

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Speaker 1: so you can imagine why in that situation people might say,

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Speaker 1: if those are all of the options, we're just going

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Speaker 1: to try to hunker down right here. And I thought

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Speaker 1: it was interesting, I'm curious for your take on this

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Speaker 1: that he didn't he the IDF spokesperson there sort of

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Speaker 1: seemed to forget that he's talking to a Western audience.

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Speaker 1: Like his original answer, my condolence is I'm deeply sorry

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Speaker 1: for this good The second answer might be better for

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Speaker 1: a in Israeli audience, but not for an American Always

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Speaker 1: the second answer of well why were they there? It

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Speaker 1: kind of sounds like their fart, their fault, and it lands.

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Speaker 1: You can see how poorly it lands with Jake Tapper there.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because there is truth that you know,

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Speaker 3: Israel provides warnings, has provided warnings in the in the past,

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Speaker 3: but there's also in this conflict been proof that that's

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Speaker 3: not happened. And in fact, we've seen the Israeli government

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Speaker 3: concede at certain points that it hasn't happened, and you

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Speaker 3: know that and actually defend that it has happened. We've

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Speaker 3: seen obviously bombings in the South. So it's you know,

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Speaker 3: to your point, Ryan, even if you're you're not in

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Speaker 3: front of a Western audience. I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 3: what else he could have said there. To be honest,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what else there is other than saying,

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Speaker 3: you know what we've heard from Yahoo and others that

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Speaker 3: this is the terrible cost. You know, when we heard

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Speaker 3: early in the conflict that this is. They were invoking

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Speaker 3: Dresden and other just awful things. That's it seems to

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Speaker 3: me like the only honest defense that you can offer,

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Speaker 3: because nothing else is especially persuasive in light of that evidence.

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Speaker 3: You know, we're what two months in now, these answers

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Speaker 3: are not quite cutting it in the West, that's for

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Speaker 3: sure to your point. And you know, maybe it's even

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Speaker 3: more effective for them, sadly to make the argument that

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Speaker 3: they were making earlier. Maybe that's maybe people will believe

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Speaker 3: that they actually believe it, because I don't think it's

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Speaker 3: believable when you say things like you know it was

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Speaker 3: in the North, right, I mean that just it doesn't

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Speaker 3: cut it anymore. So no, I agree with you, and

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Speaker 3: I think we should let's throw this. This is the

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Speaker 3: first of two Aaron Burnett clips will play from CNN

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Speaker 3: in the segment. One will actually feature Ryan himself. But

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Speaker 3: this is with of course, Israeli Army spokesman Jonathan Conricus

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Speaker 3: on CNN talking about the ratio of civilian casualties, So.

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Speaker 4: That's two civilians for every terrorist.

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Speaker 7: Can you confirm that, I can confirm the report and

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Speaker 7: I can say that if that is true, and I

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Speaker 7: think that our numbers will be corroborated. If you compare

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Speaker 7: that ratio to any other conflict in urban terrain between

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Speaker 7: a military and a terrorist organization using civilians as their

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Speaker 7: human shield and embedded in the civilian population, you will

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Speaker 7: find that that ratio is tremendous, tremendously positive, and perhaps

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Speaker 7: unique in the world. I understand that there are civilian casualties,

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Speaker 7: and I understand that footage and coverage goes towards emotions

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Speaker 7: and to cover those civilian casualties. But what I want

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Speaker 7: to say is that we will get those figures out

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Speaker 7: and they will be official and on record by the

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Speaker 7: IDEAF with the name behind it, and then we will

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Speaker 7: be able to say and to back up afterwards with

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Speaker 7: names and numbers that we are indeed targeting the terrorists,

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Speaker 7: we are not after the civilians.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So what he just said was important because if

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Speaker 3: you look at the New York Times, and we talked

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Speaker 3: about this last week, tabulated recently the ratio and this

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Speaker 3: is from hamas numbers and they're using like they're using

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Speaker 3: un numbers as well. And I understand people have concerns

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Speaker 3: about the numbers, but women and children make up sixty

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Speaker 3: nine percent of the deads in the twenty twenty three war,

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Speaker 3: but forty one percent of twenty twenty one fighting, thirty

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Speaker 3: eight percent of the twenty fourteen war, and thirty nine

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Speaker 3: percent of the eight nine war. So by these numbers,

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Speaker 3: and again, you know, I look forward to the IDF's

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Speaker 3: numbers because I think it is helpful to be able

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Speaker 3: to compare the data. But Ryan, to your point, these

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Speaker 3: numbers could even be underestimating. You know, there's an argument

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Speaker 3: that Israel seems to imply repeatedly implies that they're overestimating

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Speaker 3: the level of death, but in some cases there's been

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Speaker 3: an argument they're actually underestimating it. So we should have

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Speaker 3: numbers to compare if we're not supposed to trust the

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Speaker 3: Hamas numbers. And I understand the reasons for that argument,

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Speaker 3: But then we need numbers to compare that too, because

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Speaker 3: these numbers are really really bad. These ratios, even compared

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Speaker 3: with Israel's previous handling, are bad even by their own measures.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Ministry of Health numbers have proven to

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Speaker 1: be accurate in the past, and even Israel in past conflicts,

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Speaker 1: when they've put out their numbers after a conflict, they've

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Speaker 1: mostly made at what the the what the Ministry of

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Speaker 1: Health has put out, And what I would add to

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Speaker 1: those is that there's also like if you throw in

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Speaker 1: the elderly, you get you push that number, you know,

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Speaker 1: well into the seventy percentages.

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Speaker 4: And also as a.

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Speaker 1: Non combatant male, I'd like to you know, put in

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Speaker 1: a good word for non combatant males, like we we

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Speaker 1: always kind of get tossed into this bucket of potential combatants.

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Speaker 1: You know, you'll say, well, I guess we're left with

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Speaker 1: thirty percent of people who are Hamas. And it's like,

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Speaker 1: what we know for a fact that so far they've

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Speaker 1: killed seventy three journalists. A significant number of them were men,

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Speaker 1: not all of them, but a significant number were I

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Speaker 1: know of, you know, through people I've interviewed, significant, signicant,

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Speaker 1: significant numbers of men, even fighting age, men who had

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Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to do with Hamas. And so once you

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Speaker 1: once you throw them and you're getting you know, even

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Speaker 1: further down. We can just talk about this based on

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Speaker 1: kind of the Israeli figures. You heard the spokesperson there

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Speaker 1: say that they're they're killing two civilians for every you know,

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Speaker 1: one Hamas fighter that they that they kill Now that's

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Speaker 1: take I would take that with a grain of salt

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Speaker 1: as well. If that's what they're saying publicly, Now I suspect, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll find the ratio to be significantly higher. But what's

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Speaker 1: so disturbing about that is that he says that, well,

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Speaker 1: if you look at previous combat, you know we should.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you compare us to perfection, well of

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Speaker 1: course we fall short. But if you compare us to

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Speaker 1: previous combat, then actually, you know, we're doing quite well.

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Speaker 1: If you compare that to October seventh, they're not doing well.

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Speaker 1: And October seventh is a useful comparison because all of

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Speaker 1: us recognize that as a horrific atrocity and as something

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Speaker 1: that you should be condemned, kind of top to bottom.

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Speaker 1: But if you look at the military to civilian casualty rates,

435
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: you're looking at a roughly two to one civilian to

436
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: military personnel military or police personnel. And so if we

437
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: all agree and we do that that was a horrific

438
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: atrocity and a war crime that should be prosecuted, how

439
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: can the IDF then say, with roughly the same proportion

440
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: that they are actually conducting themselves in an ethical fashion.

441
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: Doesn't that put them in a pretty tough mind and

442
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:28,719
Speaker 1: expose what's going on.

443
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does, and you know, as somebody who probably

444
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 3: disagrees with you on a lot of different aspects of

445
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,479
Speaker 3: this conflict. So on the more foundational level, my position

446
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 3: is Hamas should release the hostages if Israel's goal is

447
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 3: the eradication of Hamas, and that's what's justifying the sort

448
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 3: of continued conflict. I mean, I'm not seeing evidence that

449
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 3: there's concrete steps that are going to be taken seriously

450
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 3: towards that end goal. That that is a kind of

451
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: in some ways, you can have a similar conversation about Ukraine.

452
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,719
Speaker 3: Ukraine is going to reclaim every inch of the DNBAS

453
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 3: and until that, all of the blood will continue to

454
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 3: be spilled. And you know, the eradication of Hamas is

455
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: just an impossible goal, an understandable, an important goal, but

456
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 3: I think you know that it's just not good enough

457
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: two months into the conflict as a sort of end

458
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 3: while these numbers continue to stack up, and let's put

459
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 3: the next element up on the screen. This is an

460
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 3: estimate of the a number of Hamas fighters that have

461
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 3: been killed so far, according to a report Israel Intelligence.

462
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 3: Their latest estiment is that they've killed around fifty three

463
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 3: hundred Hamas terrorists. The New York Times reports that the

464
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: estimate is there are about thirty thousand Hamas terrorists embedded

465
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 3: in the two point something million about two point two

466
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 3: million person population of Gaza, So fifty three hundred Hamas

467
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 3: terrorists we don't know's that's almost impossible to confirm. At

468
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: the same time, that's a you know, that will factor

469
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: into those calculations. Ryan, where does that sound to you

470
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: like a plausible number?

471
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, you know, there's been so much

472
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: killing in Amaz that I mean, in uh in Gaza,

473
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: that's certainly you know, even even just by chance, you're

474
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: going to hit you know, a number of Hamas fighters.

475
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 8: So uh.

476
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: And even if the IDF spokesperson is saying, look, we're

477
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: we think we have a two to one civilian ratio,

478
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: the fact that that makes them look so bad suggest

479
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: that there's probably a little bit of truth to it,

480
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: even if they're even if they're counting you know a

481
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 1: number of people who you know, they suspect were Hamas

482
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: fighters who who actually actually were not.

483
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 3: We have another CNN clip here talking about one particularly

484
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: troubling case we can roll that now.

485
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 9: What happened to Oxoba seventh was an absolute atrocity. It

486
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 9: was a thousand atrocities. I think at the same time

487
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 9: we condemned those atrocities, we have to condemn the atrocities

488
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 9: that happen every day to Palestinians in the West Bank.

489
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 9: You mentioned sexual violence. I was part of the human

490
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 9: rights vetting process for arms going to Israel, and a

491
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 9: charity called Defensive Children International Palestine drew our attention at

492
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 9: the State Department to the sexual assault, actually the rape

493
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 9: of a thirteen year old boy that occurred in an

494
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 9: Israeli prison in the Moscow Bea in Jerusalem. We examined

495
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 9: these allegations. We believe they were credible. We put them

496
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 9: to the government of Israel, and you know what happened.

497
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 9: The next day, the IDF went into the DCIP offices

498
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 9: and removed all their computers and declared them a terrorist entity.

499
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 9: I think it is vital that atrostees not happened to anyone,

500
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 9: not sexual atrocity, not sexual violations, not any kind of

501
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 9: gross violation of human rights. We are looking at a

502
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 9: situation where there is so much dehumanification, where people are

503
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 9: not seen for the value that they have, and I

504
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 9: think that's true whether you're talking about those who are

505
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 9: attacked on their kibbutz or those who are attacked in

506
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 9: their homes and go or in the West Bank. What

507
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 9: we really need is to center the human beings who

508
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 9: are at the core and who are suffering so much

509
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 9: in this conflict.

510
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 3: So that was Josh Paul. He's a State Department official

511
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 3: that resigned over the sending of weapons to Israel. If

512
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 3: you were listening to that and didn't see it on

513
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 3: the screen, that's who he was. He was talking to Christian.

514
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: I'mpor let's put this next element up on the screen

515
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: screen as well. This is a headline from a monitor

516
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 3: that says the growing US Israel rift over Gaza war

517
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: timeline will net and Yaho budget. That's basically what we've

518
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 3: been talking about in this entire segment is how are

519
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: the mounting pressures from the mounting tragedies in Gaza ultimately

520
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: going to influence Netnyahu himself? The decision makers behind Israel

521
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: is really military, as the US has reportedly again this

522
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: timeline of their target date for an end of the

523
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: invasion being sometime around everywhere one. What do you make

524
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: of that.

525
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so our monitors' sources are saying, yeah, basically telling

526
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: Israel that they have through the end of this month,

527
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: you know, to to wrap up this this military campaign.

528
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: But then they report, you know, quote this is not

529
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: a deadline, but a target.

530
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 4: During the war. Target dates can shift.

531
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: And so you have this combination of kind of American

532
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: you know, either public or private rhetoric pushing in one

533
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: direction with then the the immediate kind of implication that.

534
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 4: You can consider this justice suggestion.

535
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: It's reminiscent a little bit of Tony blink their reports

536
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: of Tony Blinken meeting, you know about a week ago

537
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: with Israeli military officials and you know, the war cabinet

538
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: and they were laying out their war plans that lasted

539
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: several months, and he told them, you know, you don't

540
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: have that much credit, and that was that was a

541
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: quote that made it into the press, you know, telling them,

542
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, this needs to be wrapped up. At the

543
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: same time, you you you see this kind of loosening

544
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: of it at the very end. And the reason that

545
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: you see them, you know, saying that you're running out

546
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: of credit, I think is the people like Josh Paul

547
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: kind of breaking through in the in the global media

548
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: and bringing attention to not just what's going on in Gaza,

549
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: but what's happening, you know, more generally with with the occupation.

550
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: That that story he told was I think controversial on

551
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: an American television show because he's equating, you know, Palestinian

552
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: lives with Israeli lives, and that's just you're just not

553
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: supposed to do that. You know, you're not You're not

554
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: supposed to you know what, when Permilla Gaiapol called for

555
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: quote unquote balance and how we talk about this, she

556
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: was pillaried, you know, for the for a couple of

557
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: days over that. But for Josh Paul to say, look,

558
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: I was involved in a specific case of an allegation,

559
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: a credible allegation of the rape of a thirteen year

560
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: old boy, which should make a lot of people pause

561
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: and me like, wait a minute, why was there a

562
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: thirteen year old boy in prison to begin with? And

563
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 1: then he follows up with, you know, when they alerted

564
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: Israel authority, they you know, thank you for the tip,

565
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: We appreciate that, and they raid the offices of the

566
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,239
Speaker 1: Human Rights Organization, sees their computers and designate them as

567
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: as a terrorist organization like that. That's the kind of

568
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: thing I think that is drying up Israeli credit. On

569
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: the other hand, it doesn't seem like Israel cares that

570
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: much at this moment, you know what the White House says,

571
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: as long as what the White House says doesn't translate

572
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: into them actually doing anything.

573
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, just the amount of representatives that they

574
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: send into American media every day, in Western media in general,

575
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 3: every day tells me that they are conscious of how

576
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: important American public opinion is to their continued support. Although

577
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: at the same time, you're right, Ryan, American public opinion

578
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: could you know, go and under direction and the Biden

579
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: administration could still be doing a lot to help behind

580
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: the scenes while saying something maybe that is more appealing

581
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 3: to the American public in public forums. So, I mean,

582
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: I do think that's interesting. And I think Israeli civilians

583
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: aren't going to be served and protected by an extended

584
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 3: conflict either. I think that's really important. Again, from the

585
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 3: perspective of somebody maybe on the other side, is that

586
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: like the is really civilians before October seventh and after

587
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 3: October seventh. I think we all agree the security situation

588
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: is not ideal. It's more for ideal, it is there

589
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 3: was no resolution to it before October seventh. On October sixth,

590
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: and that's the security situation has only worsened. And so

591
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: with the end goal of eradicating Hamas and no, I

592
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: would say plausible, viable plan as to what would fill

593
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: that vacuum if this impossible end was actually achieved, and

594
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: what will fill the vacuum, you know, after it is

595
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: partially likely partially achieved. I don't think we have confidence

596
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 3: or can have confidence that Israeli civilians are going to

597
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: be much safer after than let's say that January one

598
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 3: target is hit. Well, Ryan, you were talking about a

599
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: lot of this because your book is out this week

600
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: on CNN. So you joined Aaron Burnett and we have

601
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 3: a clip of your appearance on Aaron Burnett Show on

602
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 3: CNN last night.

603
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 4: Years too.

604
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: They caught me reading your texts. I was actually reading

605
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: your notes because you were reading from quotes. But I

606
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: did joke on Twitter that I was reading Ryan's text

607
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: from the CIA. Here is Ryan's appearance on CNN.

608
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 10: Here is part of his exchange with journalist Ryan Grimm.

609
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 11: Members of the squad have tweeted out from the river

610
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 11: to the sea. But the answer, I'd allow him to

611
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 11: say it, but I wouldn't sit there quietly. I'd point

612
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 11: out that you were calling for once again the extermination

613
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 11: of millions.

614
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 4: Of views, as I'm sure you know.

615
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: Though in Leakun's platform it says, you know, from the

616
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: river to the sea, there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

617
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: Are they suggesting genocide of all Palestinians?

618
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: Of course not exactly.

619
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: So if they're not, why is the other suggesting genocide?

620
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 4: Because that's what Hamas support.

621
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: We've had a defense Minister Galant. We will eliminate everything,

622
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: an IDF spokesperson. Our focus is on damage, not on precision.

623
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: Another former Kennestment member, there is one and only solution,

624
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I

625
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima without

626
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons.

627
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 4: Would you join us in condemning that as well? So

628
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,959
Speaker 4: I condemn nothing that the Israeli government is doing.

629
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 3: I stand with the people of Israel.

630
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 10: Talk to me about that moment.

631
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: What did that say to you when you were sitting

632
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: there having that exchange with him?

633
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 12: I thought at least he would condemn some of the

634
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 12: things that the Israeli government had already condemned, like you

635
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 12: don't have to get in front of them, like, for instance,

636
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 12: the minister who floated the idea of nuking Gaza was

637
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 12: roundly like rebuked by other members of the net Nyahu cabinet.

638
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 12: So it was striking to me that Cruz couldn't even

639
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 12: go as far as members of the very far right

640
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 12: net Yahoo cabinet. I was just trying to in that

641
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 12: interview find some common moral plane, because you know, anytime

642
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 12: you have anybody on who's remotely critical of Israel, the

643
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 12: interview starts with, you know, will you condemn at what

644
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 12: Hamas did on October seventh. Today is December fifth, We're

645
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 12: still having news cycles organized around that question from two

646
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 12: months ago. So then it follows that, well, let's also

647
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 12: get on the same moral level and condemn the kind

648
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 12: of collective punishment of Palestinians as well, and then we

649
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 12: can talk about a way forward. But he wouldn't go there,

650
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 12: and that was kind of Once he didn't, You're like, okay,

651
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 12: well I've got If you condemn nothing, then there's nothing

652
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 12: I can tell you that's.

653
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: Gonna I mean, it really was.

654
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: I hope everyone will watch. It was a fascinating exchange.

655
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 4: We take back all the things we said about CNN.

656
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I actually think that's it's fairly interesting

657
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 3: to me that they ran the I mean a huge

658
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 3: chunk of the clip in that exchange, because I think

659
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: one of the benefits of that exchange, as we talked

660
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 3: about last week, was having some time to a you know,

661
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: have let these discussions breathe a little bit, and and

662
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: having on the other hand, so point B is that

663
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: you know, Ted CRE's sitting down with somebody who's sort

664
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: of openly an ideological opponent, not not a lawmaker, not

665
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: an elected official, and you know, not a hack, but

666
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 3: like somebody who's actually going to engage on the issue.

667
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 3: And so I think it's actually really heartening that people

668
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: watch that and it came away with this was really

669
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: sort of insightful.

670
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: It's the advantage of a longer interview, too, right, Cable

671
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: is you know, so they do it to themselves like that.

672
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: There's no there's no federal law that says they have

673
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: to keep every segment to like two and a half

674
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: or three minutes, but they are, you know, have conditioned

675
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: themselves to believe that the public you know, won't won't

676
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: be able to kind of keep up with anything with

677
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: anything more than that. But if you do that, then right,

678
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: you can't, you can't kind of draw out the more

679
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: the more interesting takeaways from UH, from conversations like uh,

680
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I condemn absolutely nothing and you know, up

681
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: to and including things that even that Yahoo's cab that

682
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: would condemn. And that goes to what we were talking

683
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: about earlier. This stark difference between how this conversation unfolds,

684
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, here in the United States and how it

685
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: how it unfolds over in the Israeli media, where because

686
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: there is you know, so much more kind of lust

687
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: for revenge after October seventh, there that the is Israel

688
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: the government is much more open about what it's doing.

689
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: They don't they don't want to sugarcoat anything that they're

690
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: doing in Gaza, because if they sugarcoat it, then the

691
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: public and some of the kind of the cabinet will

692
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: demand no, no, no, we want more than that.

693
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 3: And there's enormous sensitivity obviously, you know, as there's an

694
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 3: Israel but in the United States about anti Semitism and

695
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 3: about there's this sort of Western anti Semitism as opposed

696
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 3: to sort of radical Islamic anti semitism, and so we

697
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 3: have these standards that create sort of an impossible condition

698
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 3: for discourse on this particular issue. And I do think

699
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: it's unfortunate the extent of which people are afraid. For example,

700
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 3: when you read what you read as we just watched

701
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 3: again that people feel as though they have no flexibility

702
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 3: to kind of honestly reckon with some serious points there

703
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 3: and there are. We could have gone much longer in

704
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 3: that interview, and I think we both wanted to, but yeah,

705
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 3: I thought that was the best part of the interview,

706
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 3: that the most helpful part of the exchange. I want

707
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 3: to also put this element on the screen from huff

708
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 3: Post because it's more reporting from your book, and the

709
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: book you've mentioned this before is so timely. It turned

710
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: out to be so timely because it ended up as

711
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: you were digging into kind of the evolution of the squad.

712
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: So much of it is sort of revolving around a

713
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: pack and around the question of Israel. So this is

714
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 3: the headline. Top Pro Israel group offered a Kazio Cortez

715
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand dollars of campaign cash per new book ran.

716
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 3: You also reported this week that the I think you said,

717
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: like the Murdoch Empire, it just utterly twisted parts of

718
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 3: the book in an effort to make Alexandro A Kazu

719
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 3: Cortes and the squad in general and sort of the

720
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 3: Green Agenda look foolish. I was really like, I mean

721
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 3: not I shouldn't stay surprised, but taken it back by

722
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: I think how egregious. The coverage of things from your

723
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: book has been Daniel Mary articles not among them. He

724
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 3: is reporting, based on your report that APEC actually reached

725
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 3: out to Okazio Cortes with quote a whole lot more

726
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 3: than an olive branch.

727
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 8: Right.

728
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

729
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: So if we've talked earlier about that, that twenty eighteen

730
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: interview that she did with Margaret Carlson on the Firing

731
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: Line is like three weeks after she won her primary.

732
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: She's been nailing every single interview and then she gets

733
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: hit with questions about Israel Palestine, and I think I

734
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: actually rewatched it with Hasan Piker on his stream yesterday.

735
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 4: We kind of, you know, went down memory lane on that.

736
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: Interview, and her answers are actually fine for the most part.

737
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: Her problem is she starts to visibly betray a kind

738
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: of lack of confidence that she's getting these questions right,

739
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: and by the end she just taps out and says, look,

740
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on this. We didn't talk about

741
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: this much at my Bronx you know, dinner table. You know,

742
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to more people about this. Let me,

743
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 1: you know, let me, let me step away from this

744
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: question because you know, I'm dying inside here. That's basically

745
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: what you can you can see on her face as

746
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: she's getting asked about her use of the phrase quote

747
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: occupation of Palestine or or equating of Palestinian lives being

748
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 1: taken by the IDF with you know, protesters getting shot

749
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: in Puerto Rico or protesters getting shot in Fergus in Missouri.

750
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: Like the Carlson seems to like really object to this,

751
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: this equating of Palestinian lives and American and American live

752
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 1: lives because of the Middle Eastern dynamics are so so different,

753
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: and and so she just kind of taps out at

754
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: the very end. And so what what I reord in

755
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: the book is that about a week later, when she

756
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: and Bernie are in Kansas campaigning for a candidate out

757
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: there or Corbyn. Trent communications director gets a call and says, hey,

758
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: you know, we saw that, we saw the interview. You know,

759
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: I'm with Apex. I've already bundled together you know, a

760
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: good one hundred thousand dollars to start the conversation with AOC.

761
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: We can you know, we can help to educate her,

762
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: you know, to make sure that you know, she doesn't

763
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: have another, uh, you know, another face plan interview like

764
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: this again. And it was it was for her team,

765
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: her and her team a real window into kind of

766
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: how Washington works, and that if you were a normal

767
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: member of Congress who had just won a primary and

768
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: had not instantly become, you know, bizarrely and uniquely this

769
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: kind of global celebrity which comes with it all this

770
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: campaign cash, he'd be like, all one hundred thousand dollars,

771
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: I desperately need one hundred thousand dollars. And also I

772
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: need I need talking points on this issue because you know,

773
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: I didn't run on this question.

774
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 4: I don't want it to become a huge political liability.

775
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: She was in a position where she you know, could

776
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: could and did say, you know, thanks, but no thanks.

777
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: She she was happy to meet with you know, groups

778
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: on all sides, but didn't but didn't want to kind

779
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: of get hooked in with with this first offer of

780
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars, with the pledge that there was lots,

781
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, lots more behind it.

782
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 13: You know.

783
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: Instead you're now seeing you know, tens of millions and

784
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: potentially up to one hundred million dollars you know, being

785
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 1: spent against the squad in the in the next cycle

786
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: to you know, wipe them out as a political.

787
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 3: Entity and tell us about how your book was covered

788
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: by I believe it's the Daily Mail in the New

789
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 3: York Post.

790
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: Which yeah, and Daily Daily Mail I had forgotten for

791
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: someone in Daily Mail is not murderck onus, but it's

792
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: part of that, like you know, right way ecosystem. It

793
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: It was, it's been kind of surreal to to watch, Uh. Basically,

794
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: they you know, they got some early copies of the

795
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: book and took you know, quotes by people who were

796
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: quoted in the book, attributed them, attributed them to me,

797
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: and then kind of elevated Like for instance, there was

798
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: one where one person for Sunrise said that one element

799
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: of the Green New Deal rollout was a you know,

800
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: a cluster uh. And instead of quoting that person, they

801
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: attribute to me and they and they say that I

802
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: report in the book that the entire Green New.

803
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 4: Deal was a giant cluster.

804
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: Uh and and that and and that the whole the

805
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: whole thing was just wild to what you know, it's

806
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 1: it's because you know, like that, No, none of these,

807
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: none of these things are in the book.

808
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 4: I didn't. I didn't say these things at all.

809
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 1: There are some criticisms in the book, but they come from,

810
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: you know, in earnest places like what what lessons can

811
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: be learned? One of the other funny and it's funny

812
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: isn't the right word, but funny examples was you know

813
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: that I say that, you know, she became a like

814
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: a pariah and closed off to all these donors without

815
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: setting close off these big donors, without without adding the

816
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 1: context that her decision to be closed off to these

817
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: major donors is a good thing and is a function

818
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: of the squad's ability in the Bernie Standers Wings ability

819
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: to kind of raise so many small done dollars, and

820
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: that that then appears to be a threat to the

821
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: rest of the caucus, and they kind of flip that

822
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: on its head into into you know, whatever weird cynical

823
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: kind of framing they put on top of it. It's

824
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, I've obviously seen that the kind of Murdoch

825
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: empire do that for years, but it was kind of

826
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: surreal to like be in the middle of it, and

827
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: probably for you too, since you actually had read the

828
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: book and you read these pieces and you're like, h no,

829
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: that's not that's not right.

830
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, I think someone probably read it really

831
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 3: quickly and just kind of ran with the vibe.

832
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, like this will click. Yeah, let's just slap this up.

833
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: And then next thing, you know, it's like just absolutely

834
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: everywhere in conservative media, it's like bizarre, just utterly bizarre.

835
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: Ryan Graham, Conservative media, darkling. Yeah, all right, let's move

836
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: on to the Middle East and Vadimir Putin's trips to

837
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: the Middle East. Vladimir Putin actually just landed in the

838
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 3: UAE a couple of hours ago as we're speaking here.

839
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 6: Now.

840
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 3: Remember the Sheikh of the UAE, Schik Mohammad Benzeed, actually

841
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 3: was the one who sort of positioned himself to negotiate

842
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 3: the release of Brittany Griner. So there's so many interesting

843
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: dynamics Putin is going later today to Saudi Arabia. According

844
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 3: to Russian government spokesman, they're going to be talking about

845
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 3: the war in Ukraine, They're going to be talking about

846
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 3: the war in Gaza, and of course they're going to

847
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: be talking about oil productions. So in Saudi Arabia in particular,

848
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 3: we can put the element up on the screen. While

849
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 3: the kingdom has made a voluntary oil production cut of

850
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 3: one million barrels a day, The New York Times reports,

851
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: Russia has contributed smaller cuts to its exports, but not

852
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 3: its production, despite Saudi attempts to convince Russian officials to

853
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 3: take more action. Another important thing here, Putin is actually

854
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: on Thursday in Moscow hosting the ARRAY president, and he

855
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 3: hasn't Putin himself has not traveled beyond China, Iran and

856
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: some former Soviet states actually since he first invaded Ukraine

857
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 3: back in February twenty twenty two. So he's doing UAE

858
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia in one day and then hosting Iran in

859
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 3: Moscow the next day and set to negotiate over oil.

860
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 3: Actually a pro to Russia government daily paper, as The

861
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 3: New York Times notes reported on Tuesday that Russia would

862
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 3: not oppose conducting talks with Ukraine in a European country

863
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 3: like Hungary. So with these sort of three front talking

864
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: about Ukraine, talking about Israel and Gaza, and talking about oil. Ryan,

865
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 3: You've made some really interesting points about a Trump Biden

866
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 3: matchup in twenty twenty four and oil in particular. When

867
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,479
Speaker 3: you have the Saudi royal family very close to Jared

868
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 3: Kushner and very close to the Trumps, what could potentially

869
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 3: happen on that front when you talk about the American election,

870
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 3: could potentially affect the conflicts and US support military support

871
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: for the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian government, and for the

872
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 3: Israeli military and the Israeli government. That's all on the

873
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 3: line in the next year, which we're rapidly careening towards.

874
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 3: So pretty interesting timing for this trip.

875
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly when Trump was president, you know, he twice publicly,

876
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, browbeat Mohammad and Salmon of Saudi Arabia to

877
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: manipulate gas prices for electoral purposes. In first in twenty eighteen,

878
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: you wanted gas prices down for those midterms, and then

879
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty the collapse of gas prices was threatened

880
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 1: to create its own economic crisis.

881
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 4: By triggering all kinds of weird defaults.

882
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: If you remember, there was a time where oil was

883
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:59,399
Speaker 1: selling it like below zero dollars a barrel, and that

884
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 1: can like just call that can cause like mayhem in markets.

885
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: And so he urged you know, MBS to kind of

886
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, pull back on production, to kind of rescue

887
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 1: and did it every time. When as Biden has you know,

888
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 1: pushed n BS, he's had much less success. The reporting

889
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: and the analysis that I've seen is is pretty strongly

890
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: indicative of the fact that you know, n b S

891
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: would love to see Republicans, you know, come come back

892
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 1: and off as Saudi Arabia has become more aligned with

893
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: with Republicans, There's been some reporting that you know, Putin

894
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: thinks that you know, he might be able to get

895
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: a better deal with Trump, uh than that with Biden.

896
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: So you do have this interesting situation where, you know,

897
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: the elections are so organized around gas prices sometimes that

898
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: you end up kind of outsourcing uh power over moving

899
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: the needle of our electoral dial to two people like uh,

900
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, uh nb Z, n B S, Putin, et cetera.

901
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: And also I can confirm out here with Los Angeles,

902
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: they want like six dollars a gallon for guests. I

903
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: thought that I thought they were making that up there.

904
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's no way, no. Gavin Newsom incredible.

905
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 3: Blame Ryan Grimm's Green agenda, the Grim Green agenda.

906
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 4: That's true. We have failed state out here, tell you what.

907
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 3: But actually, in the vacuum of what's perceived as US leadership,

908
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: other countries have started trying to negotiate sort of peace

909
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 3: deals in Ukraine and in the Middle East, which has

910
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 3: been kind of fascinating to watch because we really haven't

911
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 3: seen that seriously in a matter of years, perhaps a

912
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 3: matter of decades really, and business insiders headline about the

913
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 3: Putin trip is that he seeks to humiliate Biden by

914
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 3: showing him that attempts to isolate Russia have failed. I mean,

915
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 3: I don't know that that's his primary goal, but that

916
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 3: is definitely, I think probably an intended outcome from Vladimir

917
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 3: put In this case that he hasn't traveled outside of

918
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 3: Russia ran China since the invasion, and now that there's

919
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 3: another hot conflict, two hot conflicts that the US is

920
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 3: waging almost as proxy wars, obviously as a proxy war

921
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 3: in Ukraine and arguably is a proxy war in Israel

922
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 3: and Gaza. And precisely, by the way, with this Axis

923
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 3: of Evil formulation. We've heard this from Netanyahu, We've heard

924
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 3: this from other people about the alliance between Russia, Iran

925
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: and China, and then Iran's relationship with Hamas and Hezbollah.

926
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 3: That's sort of been precisely the justification for US involvement

927
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 3: and for a broad Western a sort of brick of

928
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 3: support in this region. And this is in some ways

929
00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 3: bolstering those sort of claims. But on the other hand,

930
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 3: if you have the Saudis squeezed between Trump and Biden

931
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 3: and Putin, I mean, these dynamics are just so it's

932
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 3: a very fragile ecosystem. I'm a very fragile ecosystem.

933
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and congratulations, I guess to Iran for making it

934
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: being the only country to make it into both Access

935
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: of Evils over the last twenty years, North or North

936
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: Korea in Iraq you know, didn't didn't make the finals

937
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 1: this time, replaced, I guess, part of Russia and China

938
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: and this.

939
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 4: But the US, you know, has everything.

940
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: It seems like everything the US has done over the

941
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: last several years has just you know, hurt the US's

942
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: own standing, you know, via the va A lot of

943
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: these a lot of these countries. The Abraham Accords, you know,

944
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: were intended to kind of lock down US alliances with

945
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: with Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, buring you know, the

946
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: rest of the Middle East by basically you know, cutting

947
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: piece deals, ignoring the fact of the Palestinians.

948
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 4: Uh.

949
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: That hasn't that hasn't worked, and now it threatens UH

950
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: to kind of drive a wedge in between Israel, Saudi Arabia,

951
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 1: u A and and others, which you know, it seems

952
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: like Uten is happy to kind of you know, waltz

953
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: into and see if he can capitalize on that. The

954
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,879
Speaker 1: other US strategy was to rip up the Iran deal

955
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: and then Biden failed to get back into it, which

956
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: has then you know, for you know, for further isolated Iran,

957
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: and you know, it has done nothing obviously to reduce

958
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: its support for its proxies around the world. You know,

959
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: amash Uh it's you know, it's climbed and you know

960
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: the Randak Boothy's whether the Syrian or Iraqi militias or

961
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: Hezbola Uh and so and then that that then you

962
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: know further kind of pushes them closer to uh, to

963
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: China and to Russia. And so you just constantly see

964
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 1: a receding of American influence through decisions that we continue

965
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: to make. And then you throw on top of that

966
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: our our belief that by you know, financing the Ukrainian

967
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: kind of resistance to the Russian invasion that we were

968
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: going to you know, dramatically weaken Russia's military capacity. You know,

969
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: it appears like, you know, Russia's military capacity in twenty

970
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 1: twenty two was actually pretty weak.

971
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 4: You know, they collapsed, you know, pretty pretty quickly.

972
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: But you know, two years later they see, you know,

973
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:39,280
Speaker 1: under the strain of this of actual combat, it seems

974
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: like in some ways we have actually kind of you know,

975
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: strengthened them as well as you know, tightened their relationships

976
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: with other global South.

977
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 4: Countries as well.

978
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: So, you know, even on its own terms, it doesn't

979
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: seem like any of the belligerents that the US is

980
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: engaged with is actually even benefiting the United States, let

981
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: alone all of the colladal damage that it's doing.

982
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: That is such an important point because even on the

983
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 3: sort of hawkish terms, when you're looking at what the

984
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 3: war in Ukraine and now the war in Gaza have

985
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 3: done to a public support for militarism abroad, but b

986
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 3: and most importantly from Putin's perspective, to our military industrial base.

987
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 3: So a whole lot of people are arguing that the

988
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 3: war in Ukraine, a whole lot of I guess neo

989
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 3: conservative warhawks are arguing that the war in Ukraine has

990
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 3: just re emboldened the US industrial base that we are

991
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 3: getting back to nineteen forty five and the thriving military

992
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 3: industrial complex that we so badly need, and it's just

993
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 3: bringing the American economy into full bloom. And actually that's

994
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 3: not what's happening. If you look at people who are

995
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 3: particularly concerned, even hawkish people that are particularly concerned about Taiwan,

996
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 3: that are particularly concerned about how long it's going to

997
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 3: take to onshore chips manufacturing in the United States even

998
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 3: with the Chips Act, all this has done has depleted

999
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 3: our capacity to again, even by sort of hawkish terms,

1000
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 3: support Taiwan in the case of an invasion. And we

1001
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 3: have her Shei Jinpang, who's allied with Ladibir Putin, talking

1002
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 3: very clearly about the sort of he usually says, like

1003
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 3: the peaceful, the peaceful unification process as it relates to

1004
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 3: Taiwan and everything like that. But the reality is the

1005
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 3: United States relies on Taiwan for national security, for a huge,

1006
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,919
Speaker 3: huge chunk of our economy and our ability to sort

1007
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 3: of function with the technological necessities that we've come to

1008
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 3: depend on. And so if these two conflicts are affecting

1009
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 3: public support for militarism, and if they're affecting our actual

1010
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 3: ability to engage in a military conflict elsewhere, you can

1011
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 3: see very clearly how Putin would be finding allies in

1012
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,479
Speaker 3: places like Iran and China and how those relations would

1013
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 3: be short up because there's a sort of mutually beneficial

1014
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 3: outcome of you know, pushing the US to burn more

1015
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 3: and more resources in Ukraine. And Putting obviously has his

1016
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 3: own problems. He's lost tens of thousands of people in battle,

1017
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,919
Speaker 3: and you know, lost was not initially as successful as

1018
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 3: you know, they sort of expected to be in Ukraine.

1019
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 3: But this is, you know, even by I think it's

1020
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 3: such an important point, Even by the standards that the

1021
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 3: Hawks purport to be seeking, they're falling wildly short, and

1022
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 3: the Biden administration is falling falling wildly short, and just

1023
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 3: I'm reminded of what Jake Sullivan said before October seventh,

1024
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 3: and about the Biden administration sort of perpetuation of the

1025
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 3: Abraham Accords, although some conservatives would argue that its relationship

1026
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 3: with Iran had undercut its approval for the Abraham Accords.

1027
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 3: Jake Sullivan said, you've never seen such peace in the

1028
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 3: Middle East. They just keep getting sort of smacked left

1029
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 3: and right by reality.

1030
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: Speaking of the global South, a bizarre little development we

1031
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: can talk about for for a minute here over and

1032
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: over in South Asia. So you know, if you know,

1033
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: people who've been watching the show know that over at

1034
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: the intercept and here we've been doing a bunch of

1035
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: reporting both about UH, the the US role in UH,

1036
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: the ouster of in Ran Khan in Pakistan, and also

1037
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: about India's now sprawling kind of global assassination program.

1038
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 8: UH.

1039
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 1: And these stories are not exactly related, but one thing

1040
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: that they have in common is that you know, we've

1041
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: we've been reporting on them, and we've drawn kind of

1042
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: on documents that we've gotten from sources and uh, you know,

1043
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: let's say, uh, let's just leave it at sources from

1044
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: over there, which has drawn the attention now of what

1045
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: appears to be uh the the either Pakistani intelligence apparatus

1046
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: or military apparatus is one of the most bizarre and

1047
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, kind of pitiful attempts to counteract reporting that

1048
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: I've seen. But we can play this little clip from

1049
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: this kind of account, this called I think it's called

1050
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: PTI Insider, which is broadly understood in Pakistan to be

1051
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 1: kind of a front for the kind of Pakistan military establishment.

1052
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 1: And what what we're not to play for you is

1053
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 1: is alleged and this is not a parody, Like as

1054
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: you're listening to it, you're going to think this is

1055
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: a parody. It's it's alleged to be a leaked conversation

1056
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: between my intercept colleague Martaza Hussein and his alleged uh

1057
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: Irani not Iranian Indian basically c I a handler the CIA.

1058
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 1: The Indian CIA is called the r A w uh

1059
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: So and they call him something absurd, almost like mister

1060
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: Shwarma uh so. But let's let's play a little clip

1061
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: of so this was this was leaked and basically in

1062
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: Pakistani social media.

1063
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 10: Hello, mister Shama, how are you?

1064
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:09,439
Speaker 4: I'm fine? Thank you, I hope it is safe to talk. Yes, yes,

1065
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 4: please go on right.

1066
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 10: Well, I already can read my wordes on how people

1067
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 10: have started to question the sources of my information and stories.

1068
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 10: You know now even my clothes aides have stid to

1069
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 10: question the authenticity of my information. Yeah, fine, by me.

1070
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 10: I just wanted to run it by you.

1071
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 4: It's good. If you have taken the stalk of the

1072
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 4: whole picture. I'll keep you bothting.

1073
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 10: Yes, sure, sure, thank you, thank you, all right, all right,

1074
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 10: take care.

1075
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: Just utterly incredible, And just for fun, let's play a

1076
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: very brief clip of parts himself. He appeared on Counterpoints,

1077
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: appeared on Breaking Points. Just let's do some voice analysis here.

1078
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: Let's see how effective they were at creating this fake. Well,

1079
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: it's a very curious relationship because in many ways Rabia

1080
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: is dependent on US security guarantees.

1081
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 4: Either're dependent on political guarantees from the US. They're very

1082
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 4: close times with US.

1083
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 3: I like that that clip was before Sager went full beard.

1084
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 4: It's such a different era with a thrill throwback.

1085
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 3: Sounds pretty close to me.

1086
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 4: What's so wild is that.

1087
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: In the era of AI you know you, I think

1088
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: you could probably do a pretty convincing one if you

1089
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: even tried, Because you know, he hosts the podcast intercepted.

1090
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: There's there's no shortage of his voice out there on

1091
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: the Internet that they could input into some AI and

1092
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 1: then spit out. It just seems like they don't even care.

1093
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: That they don't even care.

1094
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 3: I think that's what I was going to ask you,

1095
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 3: do they even care? I mean, it's it's just so

1096
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 3: flagrantly bad.

1097
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: Right, I think it And with with bots like amplifying it,

1098
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 1: they'll still you know, it's still it's going to get

1099
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of thousands of uh, you know, of

1100
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: views on throughout social media, and and it's the aim

1101
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: of some of that propaganda is just to give kind

1102
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: of critics something to kind of point to, so you

1103
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: can muddy the water and say, oh yeah, there was

1104
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: this rememory, there was this thing. You can't trust the

1105
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,440
Speaker 1: reporting because it's actually you know, coming from the kind

1106
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: of Indian intelligence agency. So therefore, you know, these these

1107
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: reporters are actually just just agents of India, so you

1108
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: shouldn't shouldn't trust them out.

1109
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 13: It was just.

1110
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: So that that that experience coupled with the kind of

1111
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: Murdoch empire to you know, reading and distorting the book.

1112
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,479
Speaker 1: It's like this, this is a weird this's a weird

1113
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: world that we're kind of stepping into in this kind

1114
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: of post whatever truth environment we're in.

1115
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 3: Can you give us the thirty thousand foot view on

1116
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 3: why sort of strategically this shallow fake as it's been dubbed,

1117
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 3: is something that you can kind of from the raw

1118
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 3: strategic tactical standpoint, if people are, you know, behind on

1119
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 3: the reporting that units have done about Imran Khan, what's

1120
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 3: from their perspective, the strategic value of getting Murtaza to

1121
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 3: sound like this.

1122
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, first of all, people have to understand that,

1123
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, the you know, Pakistan, Pakistan and India, you know,

1124
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: have this absolutely intense rivalry. Uh that uh in Pakistani

1125
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: internal documents they refer to r a W constantly as

1126
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: hostile nation Intelligence agency. They like they won't even kind

1127
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: of name the country, they just call it, just call

1128
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: it hostile nation. That's kind of how much hostility there

1129
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: are there is. And so if anything that you can

1130
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: kind of taint in the public with Indian influence, they hope,

1131
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 1: then the public is going to dismiss there's a there's

1132
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: an election that's going to be happening in Pakistan, which

1133
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: which in Imran Khan so far is not being able

1134
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: to UH participate in he's in prison facing you know,

1135
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: completely you know, trumped up charges UH. And so the

1136
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: US has been saying out loud that you know, Pakistan

1137
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 1: needs to allow free and fair elections and that everybody

1138
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 1: should be able to participate, but they don't act, they

1139
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 1: don't they aren't pressuring Pakistan to to require the most

1140
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: popular politician in Pakistan, who is in ran Kan UH,

1141
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: to be on the ballot. And I think that there's

1142
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 1: some and there's a lot of concern in Pakistan about

1143
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 1: the reporting that we've done because it has it has

1144
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: exposed the role of the Pakistani UH military and in

1145
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: the Maaccini military establishment in collusion with the United States

1146
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: and in helping to push him out of UH, having

1147
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: to push him out of office related to you know,

1148
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: his refusal to give full throat and support to Ukraine

1149
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 1: and to US's you know, the US's effort to arm

1150
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: the Ukrainians in the wake of his ouster. Pakistan has

1151
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: become a critical supplier of artillery shells for for Ukraine.

1152
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: And you've also seen and now Israel ramping up it's

1153
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 1: demand for artillery shells. And so you know, there aren't.

1154
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: There aren't a whole lot of places where all of

1155
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, this kind of low these low grade munitions

1156
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 1: can be made. And so you know, the pack Pakistan's

1157
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: kind of democracy became something that could be sacrificed for

1158
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: the the altar of the production of these this art

1159
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: to these artillery shells.

1160
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 3: Another good reason to stick around for the last block

1161
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 3: of the show today, which is an interview with the

1162
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 3: author Stuart Reid on the plot his new book, because

1163
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 3: these things continue to be relevant, yes.

1164
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:57,479
Speaker 4: Right, And it's a very good point. Is La Mumba

1165
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 4: was you know in the sale.

1166
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: We'll talk to Stuart about this in the CIA crosshairs

1167
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: for basically being neutral, same as im Ron Khan, not

1168
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: necessarily for signing against the United States, but not being

1169
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 1: full throated in support.

1170
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 4: Yes, interesting, how little changes any such cases.

1171
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Let's move back to the United States here to

1172
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 3: talk about very big development yesterday, which is that since March,

1173
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 3: Alabama Republican Senator Tommy Tuberbill has been holding up hundreds

1174
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 3: of military nominations because the Pentagon insists on a policy,

1175
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 3: a post Dobbs Decision policy that pays for employees, mostly

1176
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 3: in blue states, to travel to get abortions. Republicans, I

1177
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 3: think have a pretty good case arguing that that's illegal

1178
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 3: because there's obviously a ban on taxpayer funding of abortions.

1179
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 3: But the Pentagon can say it's not funding for abortions,

1180
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 3: it's funding for the travel. So you sort of get

1181
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 3: into the legal weeds on that question. But Tommy Tuberville,

1182
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 3: as negotiations for funding the government and end of year,

1183
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 3: at the end of your scramble to meet all of

1184
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 3: these deadlines is coming up. Tabar Towberville agreed yesterday to

1185
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 3: drop most of the holds, but not all of the holds.

1186
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 3: Let's put this up on the screen. This is from

1187
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 3: the Hill. You see right there the headline Tuberville releasing

1188
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 3: holds on hundreds of military promotions. If I were writing

1189
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 3: this headline for even for a sort of centrist or

1190
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 3: purportedly neutral publication, I think it's really really important to note,

1191
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 3: and I would probably put it in the headline as

1192
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 3: the Hill writes, quote, A hold will remain in place

1193
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 3: for the roughly ten nominations for four star generals and officers.

1194
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 3: So yes, it's true that hundreds of other promotions are

1195
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 3: now going to move really quickly through the Senate. But

1196
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 3: to have ten four star nominations continue to be held

1197
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 3: up actually is still a very big deal because that

1198
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 3: continues to put pressure in some of the highest stake

1199
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 3: decisions and approvals over this Pentagon policy. And I want

1200
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 3: to put the next element up on the screen. This

1201
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 3: is a story from one of my colleagues at the Federalist.

1202
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 3: This is our headline, don't blame Taberville for dropping his

1203
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 3: Pentagon abortion protest, blame his feckless GPE colleagues. And why

1204
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 3: this is interesting is my colleague Sean Fleetwood has some

1205
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 3: more reporting on the intraparty dynamics that never really showed

1206
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 3: up in the kind of neutral corporate media. As Sean mentions,

1207
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 3: Tuberville actually had enough votes to include a provision nuking

1208
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 3: the Pentagon's illegal abortion policy, as Sean puts it in

1209
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty four NDAA. Chuck Schumer, however, gutted that

1210
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,719
Speaker 3: provision before the measure could be considered by the Upper Chamber.

1211
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 3: So word got to Schumer. If you talk to sources

1212
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,600
Speaker 3: with knowledge of the situation, word gets to Schumer is

1213
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 3: the assumption, and he says, we're not voting on this.

1214
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 3: So Tuberville does everything to get the votes to say,

1215
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 3: if Joe Biden and the Pentagon are not going to

1216
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 3: withdraw this policy on their own, we're actually going to

1217
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 3: pass it through Congress, and we're going to get Democrats

1218
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 3: support for it because there is this provision against prohibition

1219
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 3: on tax fair funding for abortion. And he did he

1220
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 3: had that, but Chuck Schumer outmaneuvered him, because obviously Democrats

1221
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 3: control the Senate and the White House and they wanted

1222
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 3: to actually move something through the Rules Committee. He had

1223
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: a resolution he is going to pass the Rules Committee

1224
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 3: that if it was approved by sixty senators would have,

1225
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 3: as Sean puts it, effectively allowed their parties to circumvent

1226
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 3: Tuberville's protest and permit the Pentagon's policy to go unchallenged.

1227
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:27,719
Speaker 3: And the worry there from even the staunchest pro life

1228
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:32,919
Speaker 3: anti abortion senators was that is setting a terrifying precedent

1229
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 3: for how the Senate would operate in the future. So,

1230
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 3: as Sean puts it again, this left Turberville with no

1231
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 3: good options. This is on everyone who sold them out,

1232
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 3: a Hill staffer, senior Hill staffer told the Federalist, and

1233
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 3: not on Tuberville himself. This was a huge rallying moment

1234
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 3: for the conservative movement over the course of the last year.

1235
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:56,799
Speaker 3: But as the attack on Israel on October seventh happened,

1236
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 3: and then as actually you started to see, like for example, Ohio,

1237
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 3: the results come in from Issue one in Ohio, more

1238
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 3: and more pressure hit Tommy Tuberville, who basically shocked his

1239
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:13,600
Speaker 3: Republican colleagues. Nobody expected him to have a strong ideological

1240
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:17,879
Speaker 3: position on abortion, Nobody expected him to be so hostile

1241
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 3: to leadership and to become sort of a conservative stallwart.

1242
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 3: Who knows where this goes on other issues. But again

1243
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,759
Speaker 3: from my read of the situation of talking to people

1244
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 3: in these circles is Tuberville was furious by the way

1245
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,560
Speaker 3: he was treated by the Republican establishment, and this is

1246
01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 3: all of their attacks on him made him handle this,

1247
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 3: or it made him continue this from March until now

1248
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 3: instead of caving at any given point because of the

1249
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 3: way Republican leadership treated him. And it's interesting because he

1250
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 3: got a taste of how Republican leadership has treated people

1251
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 3: who take serious conservative positions in line with their voters' positions,

1252
01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 3: but not in line was sort of the Beltway Publican

1253
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 3: lobbying circles positions, and we've talked about this many times.

1254
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 3: You know, parallels between the Freedom Caucus and the Squad,

1255
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 3: Parallels between how dem leadership Schumer operates compared to McConnell

1256
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:15,599
Speaker 3: operates compared to McCarthy. There's all kinds of interesting dynamics

1257
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 3: about how both parties have handled populism. But Ryan, I

1258
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 3: just want to ask you about that question of how

1259
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,759
Speaker 3: this coverage has been handled, because again, my headline wouldn't

1260
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 3: have been Tuberville caves. It would have been Tuverville blackmailed

1261
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 3: by Republicans into dropping popular conservative position. I just I

1262
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,959
Speaker 3: think the media got the story really wrong since March.

1263
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 1: Basically and so and so people understand the the Senate

1264
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 1: kind of dynamics and rules here. If what an individual

1265
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: senator can do is you put a hold on a

1266
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: nominee and the Senate can override that. If you have

1267
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:57,719
Speaker 1: sixty votes, you can override a whole But that takes

1268
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: almost a week of Florida time to do that. And so,

1269
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 1: as you said, there were hundreds of eventually thousands kind

1270
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 1: of a nomination. The guy you know wants to become

1271
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: a captain or a court appointed colonel. That promotion, you know,

1272
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,680
Speaker 1: bizarrely to me, kind of has to go through the

1273
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 1: Senate for approval, and so there just isn't enough floor

1274
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: time to handle each each individual one. And so you had,

1275
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:24,560
Speaker 1: you know, all, you know, all of these promotions just

1276
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: hanging in limbo. People you know, couldn't move and you know,

1277
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 1: to deploy. That was causing you know all, you know,

1278
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 1: it's causing a lot of organizational you know, problems throughout

1279
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 1: throughout the military, across the board. Uh And and so

1280
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: finally there was so much frustration that Schumer was saying,

1281
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 1: all right, we're going to change the rules and we're

1282
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 1: going to take away this power to do this, hold

1283
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: in this in this circumstance, and the Senate is becoming

1284
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: so much like the House that they saw, like a

1285
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 1: senator saw like, if we lose this one privilege remaining

1286
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: that we have, than what is our role here other

1287
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 1: than just to support leadership? And so just so I understand,

1288
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 1: So your reporting is that Tuberville had sixty votes to

1289
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: kind of overturn the Pentagon's abortion policy, so that you

1290
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 1: would have had almost ten or more Democrats willing to

1291
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,600
Speaker 1: go along. And why, you know, the Democratic Caucus is

1292
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: pretty pro choice at this point. Why do you think

1293
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 1: that they were willing to go along with it just

1294
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 1: to end end the blockade of all of these nominations.

1295
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's exactly that. It gives them a

1296
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 3: talking point to say that they worked to end the

1297
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 3: blockade and to you know, bolster national security and then

1298
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,560
Speaker 3: on the other hand, a textpayer funding of abortion is

1299
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 3: I mean, A, I think there's a pretty good argument

1300
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 3: that the policy was illegal to begin with, but b

1301
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 3: not super popular across the board, so their constituents, I mean,

1302
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 3: I think that's a pretty easy sell for their constituents,

1303
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:56,560
Speaker 3: especially if they can wrap it in the packaging that

1304
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 3: they helped, you know, secure military readiness, which is another

1305
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:03,320
Speaker 3: really point, by the way, because the corporate media has

1306
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 3: unsurprisingly run with the Pentagon's narrative and the Biden administration's narrative,

1307
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 3: and it's been interesting to see the confluence of the

1308
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 3: sort of pro choice left and Defense Department. Pentagon talking

1309
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 3: point here, which is that it is absolutely essential to

1310
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:22,120
Speaker 3: national security. They won't tell you how many times the

1311
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 3: policy has been used over the course of the last

1312
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 3: couple of years, but they do say that it's absolutely

1313
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:30,600
Speaker 3: essential to national security. To have this policy and that

1314
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 3: Tommy Tuberville has his hold has severely damaged military readiness,

1315
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 3: and the corporate press has really run with that line

1316
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 3: in a way to kind of make Tommy Taberville look

1317
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 3: like a rube. Like this, you know, Alabama redneck cares

1318
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 3: more about his r religious fanaticism than he does about

1319
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 3: the military. So there are all kinds of like interesting

1320
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 3: cross sections here. But why that's interesting is if this,

1321
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 3: if military readiness was on the line, this is a

1322
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 3: policy that probably affects maybe at most like a couple

1323
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 3: dozen people a year, you would you know that the

1324
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 3: Pentsagon would have dropped the policy immediately if military readiness

1325
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 3: were actually like really a big concern here. What this

1326
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 3: is about is them not wanting to get smacked around

1327
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 3: by Republicans. They have had that relationship on lock for

1328
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 3: decades and what they don't want is to give into

1329
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,600
Speaker 3: what they think of as the crazy wing of the

1330
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 3: Republican Party. It's just as simple as that, and from

1331
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 3: their perspective, understandable strategy because they thought if they gave

1332
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:36,479
Speaker 3: in that they would be vulnerable to cuts to Ukraine,

1333
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 3: to cuts to all kinds of different things. Their powers

1334
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 3: surveillance powers, et cetera, et cetera. I think right at

1335
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:44,320
Speaker 3: least that's what ultimately their fear was.

1336
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,600
Speaker 1: There's also an interesting political realignment going on within the

1337
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 1: officer class of the military, which I don't know if

1338
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 1: it played into this or not, but I think it's

1339
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 1: useful context. Just as the parties have become polarized around

1340
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: around education, if you have, if you have a college

1341
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,640
Speaker 1: degree or higher, you're more likely at this point to

1342
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:05,520
Speaker 1: vote Democratic.

1343
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 4: If you don't, you're more likely to vote Republican.

1344
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 1: Officer class, you know, those are those are also those

1345
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 1: are basically college graduates, like almost across the board, and

1346
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 1: as a result, they have they have been driven by

1347
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:22,320
Speaker 1: the same kind of polarization around education. And you you know,

1348
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 1: you you kind of think in a vulgar way, military

1349
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:29,919
Speaker 1: they must be they must be conservative, they must support Republicans.

1350
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:32,639
Speaker 1: But the officer class leans pretty heavily at this point

1351
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 1: democratic in their in their preferences. Now they're very you know,

1352
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 1: staunchly kind of a political as you know, uh as

1353
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 1: as military men and women. They don't they're not burning people, no, no,

1354
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: but and they're also not you know, they're not they're

1355
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: not actively like lobbying in the way they like, or

1356
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: or running the country the way that Pakistans uh military

1357
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 1: is that there is a very strong culture of separating,

1358
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 1: you know, the military and civilian, but personally a lot

1359
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 1: of them are becoming voters for Democrats.

1360
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, post Trump because you know, again, like Trump

1361
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 3: was campaigned basically on the problems with the military industrial

1362
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:18,719
Speaker 3: complex of the Pentagon, and that's again, I think ultimately

1363
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 3: what this is about. They were at loggerheads. They feel

1364
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:23,840
Speaker 3: very threatened by a Republican party. And of course Joni

1365
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,960
Speaker 3: Ernst and Dan Sullivan and Mitch mcconnald. Mitch McConnell criticized

1366
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:29,519
Speaker 3: Tubberville immediately, like basically right out of the gate, within

1367
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 3: the first couple of months of the hold because what

1368
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 3: is more sacred to We talked about this when the

1369
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 3: Dobbs decision was announced. It's I think, again a big

1370
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 3: misconception in the media. What is more sacred to elite

1371
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 3: Republicans who run the GOP than abortion, oh, the military

1372
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:47,880
Speaker 3: and low taxes. And I could keep going a million

1373
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:50,840
Speaker 3: other priorities other than like social conservatism, and so I

1374
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 3: think this was a real test of that, and I

1375
01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 3: think the McConnell's and Sullivan's of the world are genuinely

1376
01:17:56,479 --> 01:18:01,639
Speaker 3: afraid of the post Trump cracks in that consensus about

1377
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 3: the mic and all of that. So ultimately, I think

1378
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:06,640
Speaker 3: that's what this was about, and I'm glad we got

1379
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 3: a chance to talk about it because I think the

1380
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 3: rest of the media missed the story.

1381
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:12,679
Speaker 4: Is fascinating to watch this unfold, that's for sure.

1382
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 3: House Republicans announced this week that they're actually going to

1383
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 3: be moving forward on the impeachment of Joe Biden next week.

1384
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 3: That's their plan. Atista ss at the beginning of the

1385
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 3: show saying that basically they have nothing to do, which

1386
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:29,400
Speaker 3: was a little glib, but it is actually true that

1387
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:32,600
Speaker 3: in addition to now an open impeachment inquiry, that they

1388
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 3: say they have the votes for Speaker. Mike Johnson actually

1389
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 3: mentioned that on the Sunday shows this week. He says

1390
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 3: he has enough votes now that George Santis is gone.

1391
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:44,719
Speaker 3: They have a three vote majority, so that means basically

1392
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 3: every Republican is going to have to vote to open

1393
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:50,519
Speaker 3: an impeachment inquiry. Formally, it's something that Kevin McCarthy didn't have.

1394
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:53,640
Speaker 3: Just a couple of months ago, he said that they

1395
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:57,439
Speaker 3: were going to start opening this impeachment inquiry, but whether

1396
01:18:57,479 --> 01:19:00,240
Speaker 3: they had enough votes to formally do that was a

1397
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 3: different question. So Jim Jordan has come out, we can

1398
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 3: put this first element up on the screen and said

1399
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 3: he hopes that the vote would the House would vote

1400
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:12,000
Speaker 3: quote as soon as possible, and as early possibly as

1401
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:13,760
Speaker 3: this week. It looks like it's going to be next

1402
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:16,040
Speaker 3: week now. He says, we think it's helpful to have

1403
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 3: that vote because we do think that someone will take

1404
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:22,120
Speaker 3: us to court. Constitutionally, it's not required. I think another

1405
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 3: important part of that is he says Republicans have not

1406
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 3: yet made a decision on what the charges against President

1407
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:30,479
Speaker 3: Biden would be. As NPR puts it, Jordan said he

1408
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:32,479
Speaker 3: still wants to talk to roughly ten people over the

1409
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 3: course of six to seven weeks, and those witnesses would

1410
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 3: include Hunter Biden, James Biden, Frank Biden, and some of

1411
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:44,880
Speaker 3: their business associates, probably just James Biden. And also, following

1412
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 3: up on the whistleblower claims that there was slow walking

1413
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:50,599
Speaker 3: of this at the DOJ and potentially at the IRS

1414
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,960
Speaker 3: as well. Ryan, this comes as the amount of time

1415
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 3: versus the amount of work that has to be done

1416
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:00,800
Speaker 3: to fund the government by different deadlines at the end

1417
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 3: of the year. You Republicans, I don't think. I don't

1418
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 3: think Republican leadership is super eager to have to deal

1419
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 3: with this. But also maybe they also think, like McCarthy

1420
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:14,000
Speaker 3: did just a couple of months ago, this will make

1421
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 3: it easier for their voters to sort of swallow the

1422
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 3: pill of potentially bad deals on end of your funding.

1423
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 4: I don't know, right, it's like kind of short term stability.

1424
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,240
Speaker 1: Trading and trading for kind of long term stability, which

1425
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: you were going to talk about later with Stuart Reed

1426
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:35,040
Speaker 1: and the La Mumba plot. The way that the kind

1427
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 1: of us would think about some of this stuff abroad,

1428
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:41,640
Speaker 1: It's like the House Republicans are creating all sorts of

1429
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 1: future problems for themselves so that they can, uh, you know,

1430
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:49,760
Speaker 1: just get through the next day or the next week.

1431
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 1: But this comes after Kevin McCarthy I've just announced that

1432
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: he was going to do an impeachment inquiry. Uh, didn't

1433
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 1: put it onto the floor in the way that you're

1434
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:02,719
Speaker 1: you know that you're opposed to just it's an impeachment inquiry.

1435
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:04,839
Speaker 4: So therefore we have the official powers of impeachment.

1436
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:08,760
Speaker 1: And this is sort of an acknowledgment by Johnson that, Okay,

1437
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,479
Speaker 1: actually that didn't work because you know that their their

1438
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 1: ability to kind of get some of the records and

1439
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:17,640
Speaker 1: documents and interviews that they wanted, you know, has not

1440
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:20,439
Speaker 1: has not met with the kind of impeachment level. But

1441
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:22,400
Speaker 1: at the same time, they don't have, like you said,

1442
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 1: they don't have charges. They don't have they're just kind

1443
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:28,360
Speaker 1: of vaguely saying we're going to launch an inquiry. In

1444
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 1: the past, in order to vote to impeach, you actually

1445
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:34,759
Speaker 1: had to have some pretty significant evidence.

1446
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:37,400
Speaker 4: Now they're saying we're going to vote to I'll launch

1447
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 4: this impeachment. Where to go find the evidence?

1448
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:42,000
Speaker 1: And that's a that's a new thing and probably undermines

1449
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:44,800
Speaker 1: kind of the potency in general of impeachment, which is

1450
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:47,800
Speaker 1: mostly it seems like at this point drained of any

1451
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:50,680
Speaker 1: of its power. Just it's just a partisan tool at

1452
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:53,960
Speaker 1: this time to feed to uh, you know, whichever whichever

1453
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 1: base is upset that it's an agenda is not being enacted,

1454
01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: so at least we can impeach the guy.

1455
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 3: And you know, you you've actually covered the pretty serious

1456
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 3: evidence of corruption against the Biden family in the past,

1457
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,880
Speaker 3: so it's not you know, we both I mean, I

1458
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 3: think we both see that as a very serious thing.

1459
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:16,200
Speaker 3: And I don't begrudge Republicans for doing this at all,

1460
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 3: to be perfectly honest, because the former president has been

1461
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:24,719
Speaker 3: indicted four times, and some of those are much stronger

1462
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:26,640
Speaker 3: cases than others. Maybe one of them is a much

1463
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:29,519
Speaker 3: stronger case than the other three. There's clearly political law

1464
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 3: fare going on, and the Biden family is clearly corrupt,

1465
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 3: and now the degree of that corruption is a different question,

1466
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:38,599
Speaker 3: and that's what Republicans are right now trying to prove.

1467
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:44,160
Speaker 3: Jim Comer came out on Monday what I saw referred

1468
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 3: to in some corners of the Conservative precess quote a

1469
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:49,680
Speaker 3: smoking gun, and that's the kind of rub is that

1470
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 3: the evidence was regular payments were coming from And I

1471
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:56,360
Speaker 3: actually have how NPR put it because I found it

1472
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 3: very amusing. House Chairman House over Chairman Jim Comber posted

1473
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 3: a video on social media on Monday laying out allegations,

1474
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:06,680
Speaker 3: including reporting that bank records a panel has indicate that

1475
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:09,799
Speaker 3: Hunter Biden set up an account that sent monthly payments

1476
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:12,599
Speaker 3: to his father in twenty eighteen, and then NPR goes

1477
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 3: on to say, but press reports indicate that the payments

1478
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 3: were related to repaying personal loans from his father. It

1479
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,120
Speaker 3: looks like it was a truck that these were payments about,

1480
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:27,280
Speaker 3: like a forward raptor an NPR saying, oh, but it

1481
01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:30,560
Speaker 3: was just a personal loan, when we know at the

1482
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 3: time from records that Hunter Biden is flush with cash

1483
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:38,320
Speaker 3: from business deals in China, specifically China at that time

1484
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 3: and around the world, and saying that none of this

1485
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:44,040
Speaker 3: could have anything to do but it's just personal. I

1486
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:46,600
Speaker 3: thought that sort of hand waving from NPR was like

1487
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:50,040
Speaker 3: incredibly unhelpful and sort of exactly why Republicans are saying,

1488
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 3: screw it. If the media is going to dismiss all

1489
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:55,280
Speaker 3: of this and just going to, you know, sort of

1490
01:23:55,400 --> 01:24:00,160
Speaker 3: do the Biden family's bidding by being dismissive of what

1491
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:02,960
Speaker 3: does appear to be serious influence pedaling all well, saying

1492
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 3: that Donald Trump was an influence peddling on behalf of

1493
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:09,000
Speaker 3: the Russians for years in daily news cycles. You can understand,

1494
01:24:09,760 --> 01:24:11,920
Speaker 3: you know, on both levels, A the level of like

1495
01:24:12,080 --> 01:24:15,400
Speaker 3: the probably corruption here, there was definitely corruption here, and

1496
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,200
Speaker 3: B the media is not talking about it. I don't

1497
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 3: think the sort of democrats do themselves if they want to,

1498
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:24,400
Speaker 3: you know, kind of get the country back to some

1499
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 3: semblance of normalcy and defeat the scourge of right populism.

1500
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:31,800
Speaker 3: They're not doing any favors by pretending none of this

1501
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 3: is serious.

1502
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:36,679
Speaker 4: And so to try to keep up with this stuff.

1503
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:38,640
Speaker 4: So whose truck was it?

1504
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 8: Is it?

1505
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 4: Like? Who is driving the truck? Is this Hunter's truck?

1506
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 3: Hunter's?

1507
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:43,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was Hunter's truck, and he's paying.

1508
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:47,599
Speaker 1: But if Hunter's paying for the truck and Hunter's driving

1509
01:24:47,680 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 1: the truck, well, why is I must be missing something?

1510
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:57,040
Speaker 4: Because why is that a payment to buy Joe Biden?

1511
01:24:57,439 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 1: Or so it's about reas that they arranged, like a

1512
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 1: payoff through a fake loan, or like is that the Well, yes,

1513
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 1: I trying to keep up with the Yeah.

1514
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 3: The problem is that Hunter at the time is he

1515
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:16,760
Speaker 3: sets up this account that has the monthly payments to

1516
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:20,559
Speaker 3: Joe Biden, and Joe Biden purchased the car. But Hunter

1517
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,479
Speaker 3: is setting up this account, likely with money that's coming

1518
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:28,200
Speaker 3: in from his Chinese influence peddling or his other foreign

1519
01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:32,439
Speaker 3: influence peddling. Therefore, the account that he's using to pay

1520
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 3: his dad back is the money he's using to pay

1521
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:38,519
Speaker 3: his dad back is coming from the influence peddling is

1522
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:41,120
Speaker 3: the So the smoking gun.

1523
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 4: If it's just right, but if it's just a loan,

1524
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:45,840
Speaker 4: Biden is not, actually Joe Biden is.

1525
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's getting dirty money because it's from overseas, but

1526
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:52,720
Speaker 1: he's only getting paid back his own money, which he

1527
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 1: got in a dirty way through like the University of

1528
01:25:55,080 --> 01:25:57,599
Speaker 1: Dell or University of Pennsylvania whatever. But that we can

1529
01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:00,640
Speaker 1: put that aside with his like weird, you know, no

1530
01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 1: show job that he had up there. But that's the

1531
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 1: more normal kind of soft corruption that we do, you know,

1532
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 1: post political life for politicians.

1533
01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think they've got to have a higher

1534
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 4: bar for their smoking.

1535
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:15,000
Speaker 3: Guns, exactly. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And that's

1536
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 3: where like again, that's the rub. The media is doing

1537
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 3: a terrible job. I think Democrats are ignoring some of

1538
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 3: this at their peril. But then there is a serious

1539
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:27,960
Speaker 3: there's a serious risk for overreach and obviously impeachment. Opening

1540
01:26:28,160 --> 01:26:30,719
Speaker 3: a formal impeachment inquiry at a very very busy time

1541
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 3: in Congress when government funding is on the line and

1542
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:36,759
Speaker 3: Republicans always get blamed for that. It's an easy political

1543
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 3: football for sure. For Democrats, there's no question about it.

1544
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 3: They claim that witnesses aren't cooperating, and that's what Jim

1545
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:44,880
Speaker 3: Jordan is saying. If the witnesses aren't cooperating, you need

1546
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 3: to have a formal impeachment inquiry open in order to

1547
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:51,040
Speaker 3: force legally cooperation or to have a stronger hand at

1548
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:55,040
Speaker 3: forcing cooperation legally. And I think there's some real merit

1549
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 3: to that, but just an interesting an interesting development to

1550
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:02,840
Speaker 3: add an interesting part of the negotiations for funding the

1551
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 3: government too, because I do really think Republicans know if

1552
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:09,080
Speaker 3: they don't do this, and they, you know, take they

1553
01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:11,639
Speaker 3: give their constituents a hard pill to swallow going into

1554
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four with a potential government funding deal that

1555
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:18,000
Speaker 3: relates to Ukraine, that relates to maybe the Pentagon and

1556
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 3: all of that. At least they'll have this to cling to,

1557
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 3: I guess.

1558
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:23,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. At the same time, if they shut the government

1559
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:26,680
Speaker 4: down while they're also seen to be focusing on this,

1560
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:29,240
Speaker 4: it's going to make them look pretty look pretty silly.

1561
01:27:29,840 --> 01:27:30,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1562
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:33,639
Speaker 1: But so up next, though, we've got Stuart Reid talking

1563
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 1: about his new book, The Lamb Plot. Excellent book, Emily,

1564
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:42,880
Speaker 1: Thank you for suggesting we have him on, let's move

1565
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:43,559
Speaker 1: to Stewart next.

1566
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 3: Ryan and I both are excited to be joined this

1567
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:50,680
Speaker 3: morning by author Stuart Reid, who's out with a new

1568
01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 3: book called The Lamumba Plot. We can put it up

1569
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:54,759
Speaker 3: on the screen here, The Secret History of the CIA

1570
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 3: and a Cold War assassination. Fantastic book. Stuart, Thank you

1571
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:01,880
Speaker 3: so much for joining us this morning on Counterpoints.

1572
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 8: Thanks for having me.

1573
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:06,080
Speaker 3: Of course, we actually teased this segment a little bit

1574
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:08,000
Speaker 3: in a block that we did about Ryan's reporting on

1575
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 3: Imran Khan and how US has manipulated situations in other

1576
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 3: countries for our preferred outcomes in a kind of proxy sense.

1577
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 3: But maybe if we could just stay at thirty thousand

1578
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:22,960
Speaker 3: feet as we start this conversation. Before we began, you

1579
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:25,920
Speaker 3: answered a question to Ryan from Ryan that you spent

1580
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:28,640
Speaker 3: about six years of your life on this book, so

1581
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 3: you're very intimately familiar with the La Mumba plot, obviously,

1582
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,040
Speaker 3: but for those who aren't, could you just give a

1583
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:38,680
Speaker 3: brief overview of what the La Mumba plot is, what

1584
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:44,040
Speaker 3: happened to Lamumba, and what you're reporting tells us about

1585
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 3: how the US sanctioned the operation.

1586
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:50,640
Speaker 13: Sure, so, Patrice Lamumba was the first prime minister of

1587
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 13: the country now known as the Democratic Republic of the

1588
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:59,599
Speaker 13: Congo when it became independent from Belgium in nineteen sixty.

1589
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:02,759
Speaker 13: He was that the helm as prime minister and immediately

1590
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:04,560
Speaker 13: there was a crisis in the country where there was

1591
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:10,120
Speaker 13: a mutiny a province seceeded total chaos, and so Lamumba eventually,

1592
01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:13,400
Speaker 13: after knocking on the door of the Americans for help,

1593
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 13: turns to the Soviets and asks for a military aid

1594
01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:20,160
Speaker 13: to help put his country back together. And in the

1595
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:22,320
Speaker 13: context of the Cold War, this was seen as an

1596
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:25,600
Speaker 13: unforgivable sin, and so that's when the CIA set in

1597
01:29:25,680 --> 01:29:30,040
Speaker 13: motion this bizarre assassination plot involving poisons that were flown

1598
01:29:30,040 --> 01:29:33,080
Speaker 13: to the Congo that the CIA station chief was supposed

1599
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 13: to put in the food or toothpaste of Lamumba. That

1600
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:40,160
Speaker 13: poisoning plot ended up not coming to fruition, but the

1601
01:29:40,240 --> 01:29:45,800
Speaker 13: CIA was involved in a different way. It helped overthrow Lamumba.

1602
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 13: It helped support the man Joseph Mobutu later known as

1603
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:54,040
Speaker 13: Mobutu ses Seku, who took power in a military coup

1604
01:29:54,400 --> 01:29:58,680
Speaker 13: and replaced Lamumba. And then crucially when La Mumba was

1605
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,000
Speaker 13: sent to his death in January nineteen sixty one. The

1606
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 13: CIA station chief on the ground essentially gave a green

1607
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 13: light for that operation, and on January seventeenth, nineteen sixty one,

1608
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:13,200
Speaker 13: La Mumba was shot dead in the breakaway province of Katonga,

1609
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 13: executed by a Congolese firing squad commanded by Belgian officers

1610
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:23,160
Speaker 13: who are answering to the secessionist leaders of that province.

1611
01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 13: But the CIA played a key role in green lighting

1612
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:29,880
Speaker 13: La Mumba's transferred to a place where everyone knew he

1613
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 13: was going to die, Yeah, and.

1614
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 1: It came after excruciating torture that you detail in. One

1615
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:40,840
Speaker 1: of the things that struck me about the book was

1616
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:44,200
Speaker 1: just kind of how little I knew about the patres

1617
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 1: lammbook going into it up until practically just before he

1618
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 1: becomes prime minister.

1619
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:54,559
Speaker 4: Almost he's been a political guy.

1620
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 1: He is a beer salesman, like one of the most

1621
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 1: popular spear sales was in the city, who then kind

1622
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:08,799
Speaker 1: of actually recruits Mobuto into the push for independence. Mabuto

1623
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:10,640
Speaker 1: was just kind of was a journalist who didn't want

1624
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 1: to become involved in in politics, and obviously that you know,

1625
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: that's that's it's such a you know, poignant detail that

1626
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 1: he would have recruited his friend into politics, then his

1627
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: friend you know, eventually helps usher usher in usher his

1628
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:26,920
Speaker 1: own assassination.

1629
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:28,559
Speaker 4: Can you talk a little bit.

1630
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 1: About you know, who La Mumba was and why Congo

1631
01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 1: would be in a situation where where so many people

1632
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,519
Speaker 1: who were you know, not that involved in politics would

1633
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:43,360
Speaker 1: come to the forefront as soon as kind of this

1634
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:45,040
Speaker 1: rapid independence on the folds.

1635
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:49,800
Speaker 13: Yeah, so rapid is the key word there. The Belgians

1636
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:53,439
Speaker 13: did basically no preparation for independence at all. In nineteen

1637
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:57,680
Speaker 13: fifty five, there was a Belgian academic who released a

1638
01:31:57,720 --> 01:32:00,120
Speaker 13: plan called the thirty year Plan for the Independent of

1639
01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:03,200
Speaker 13: the Belgian and Congo, the idea being that by nineteen

1640
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:07,120
Speaker 13: eighty five Congo would finally be ready for independence. He

1641
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:09,400
Speaker 13: almost lost his job because this was seen as way

1642
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:14,760
Speaker 13: too fast and aggressive a plan. Events intervened and then

1643
01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:18,719
Speaker 13: suddenly in the beginning of nineteen sixty the Belgians realized

1644
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:21,519
Speaker 13: they had had to offload their colony, that this was

1645
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 13: not a sustainable enterprise. So what that meant is that

1646
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:28,880
Speaker 13: you got the politicians in power after independence had no

1647
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:34,040
Speaker 13: experience being politicians because political behavior political activity was outlawed

1648
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:38,760
Speaker 13: before independence. So La Mumba is, as you mentioned, a

1649
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:41,760
Speaker 13: beer salesman. He had been a postal clerk working for

1650
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 13: the colonial administration, and it was in Laopoldville, the capital

1651
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:48,559
Speaker 13: of the Congo, as a beer salesman, that he really

1652
01:32:49,120 --> 01:32:52,559
Speaker 13: dove into politics. Had first and co founded a political party,

1653
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 13: the National Congolese Movement, and then in elections parliamentary elections

1654
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:01,760
Speaker 13: held in the spring in nineteen sixty, his party won

1655
01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:04,640
Speaker 13: the most votes and that's why he was asked to

1656
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 13: form a government and become Prime minister. And I mean,

1657
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:10,040
Speaker 13: the key thing about the moment that distinguished him was

1658
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 13: that he was incredibly charismatic. Even his bitterest foes recognized

1659
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:17,080
Speaker 13: that that he really had a way with words. He

1660
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:20,519
Speaker 13: was also a skilled political organizer, and he was peddling

1661
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:22,719
Speaker 13: a message that was appealing, which is that the Congo

1662
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:29,800
Speaker 13: had to be strong, united and independent, truly independent after independence.

1663
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:32,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is a key point because you know,

1664
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:36,200
Speaker 3: as we saw with our bonds and Guatemala or Sukarno

1665
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:40,120
Speaker 3: in Indonesia, there's this argument, especially coming from the dullist

1666
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,120
Speaker 3: kind of faction of US foreign policy makers that these

1667
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:47,880
Speaker 3: were Soviet satellite states that you know, you can't distinguish

1668
01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:51,600
Speaker 3: between a La Mumba and a cash shrow do it

1669
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:55,320
Speaker 3: at your own peril essentially, but ideologically, Stewart, there are

1670
01:33:55,479 --> 01:33:58,800
Speaker 3: huge distinctions, and in fact the hostility from the US

1671
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:01,439
Speaker 3: may have pushed people kind of closer to the arms

1672
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:04,240
Speaker 3: of the Soviets where they may not have ever wanted

1673
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:05,880
Speaker 3: to go, and in fact definitely didn't want to go.

1674
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 3: Was the kind of ideological approach that Lamimba was taking

1675
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:14,439
Speaker 3: to a that kind of broader world conflict that certainly

1676
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:18,120
Speaker 3: wasn't on the minds of his constituents in DRC on

1677
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:20,800
Speaker 3: a kind of daily basis, but also the sort of

1678
01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 3: question of global communism or what in an industrial society

1679
01:34:27,479 --> 01:34:28,880
Speaker 3: the right way to run a government is.

1680
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:32,360
Speaker 13: One of the things that struck me in my research

1681
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 13: was how pro American Lamimba was. So for instance, he

1682
01:34:36,280 --> 01:34:40,560
Speaker 13: spoke of sending Congole's children to American schools, not Russian schools.

1683
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:45,799
Speaker 13: He signed a multi billion dollar deal with an American

1684
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:51,440
Speaker 13: entrepreneur to hand over his country's mineral and hydroelectric resources

1685
01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 13: to an American and when he traveled.

1686
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:56,799
Speaker 8: To Washington, d C. In July nineteen sixty.

1687
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:59,920
Speaker 13: He even called on the US government to send American

1688
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:03,439
Speaker 13: troops to the Congos. So none of that would suggest

1689
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 13: any sort of pro Soviet orientation. It was only after

1690
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:09,280
Speaker 13: he got rebuffed by the Americans for help that he,

1691
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:12,080
Speaker 13: as you said, was driven into the arms of the Soviets.

1692
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:14,120
Speaker 8: And asked asked for military help.

1693
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,000
Speaker 13: The irony here is that if you read the American

1694
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:21,200
Speaker 13: cables at the time, the State Department cables, it's full

1695
01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:23,200
Speaker 13: of talk about what the Soviets are up to in

1696
01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:27,600
Speaker 13: the Congo. After the Cold War, when the archives, the

1697
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:30,160
Speaker 13: Soviet archives were opened, it turned out there wasn't that

1698
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:31,960
Speaker 13: much on the Congo in them at all, because the

1699
01:35:32,040 --> 01:35:34,519
Speaker 13: Soviets didn't really care about the country. They viewed it

1700
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:37,559
Speaker 13: as a far away place where Moscow was never going

1701
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:40,720
Speaker 13: to have much influence as a heavily Catholic country not

1702
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 13: amenable to communism, and in nineteen sixty the Soviet Union

1703
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 13: was not particularly powerful and didn't have a great ability

1704
01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:51,920
Speaker 13: to project power far abroad. Yet from the American perspective,

1705
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 13: they saw Soviet ghosts everywhere. And this is the one

1706
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:57,160
Speaker 13: of the great tragedies of the story, I think, is

1707
01:35:57,240 --> 01:36:00,920
Speaker 13: that La Mumba was fundamentally misread by Washington, and they

1708
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:04,960
Speaker 13: couldn't understand that he in fact wanted to stay neutral

1709
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:08,200
Speaker 13: in the Cold War and simply wanted help putting his

1710
01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:12,759
Speaker 13: country back together and having his government and country survive.

1711
01:36:14,320 --> 01:36:17,400
Speaker 1: You see so many cases of that around the world,

1712
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:22,599
Speaker 1: where the US you firmly believed that the Soviets were

1713
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, orchestrating you know, gigantic you know, insurgencies or

1714
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: political plots within a country, acted on those suspicions by

1715
01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:35,640
Speaker 1: assassinating people or otherwise taking action, and then only to

1716
01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:40,920
Speaker 1: find out later that either the Soviets were actually you know,

1717
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:45,160
Speaker 1: encouraging people, like in Indonesia not to engage in any

1718
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:48,120
Speaker 1: type of uh you know, violence or revolutions, saying the

1719
01:36:48,160 --> 01:36:50,519
Speaker 1: conditions weren't right for it, or like you said, just

1720
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:53,960
Speaker 1: just completely ignoring it, like with with you know, no

1721
01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:58,559
Speaker 1: sense from the Soviets that they had any entry into Congo.

1722
01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:02,160
Speaker 1: Uh you right, at one point that Kasavubu, who is

1723
01:37:02,240 --> 01:37:07,280
Speaker 1: kind of the more radical revolutionary, was at least a

1724
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:10,240
Speaker 1: little bit more interesting to the Soviets. But even in

1725
01:37:10,320 --> 01:37:12,760
Speaker 1: that case, there wasn't much they could do that. It's

1726
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:17,320
Speaker 1: like and La Mumba winds up as this such a

1727
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:21,840
Speaker 1: tragic figure because he seemed to really believe the rhetoric

1728
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:24,000
Speaker 1: that was coming, you know, from the United States it's

1729
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 1: about democracy and self determination and from the United Nations,

1730
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:29,960
Speaker 1: and you've got these moments where kind of he's reaching

1731
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:33,360
Speaker 1: out to the United Nations saying, you know, it's basically

1732
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:37,360
Speaker 1: like calling the manager, like, hey, you know, here are

1733
01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:40,519
Speaker 1: the values that the world says it upholds. I share

1734
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:45,040
Speaker 1: those values. I'm trying to implement those values here in Congo.

1735
01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:48,439
Speaker 4: What's going on? Why am I being ousted? Son? You

1736
01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:51,280
Speaker 4: talk a little bit about the role of the of

1737
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:54,160
Speaker 4: the U n and how this unfolded.

1738
01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:59,120
Speaker 13: Yeah, so, so in the at the height of the crisis,

1739
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:02,600
Speaker 13: Lamumba death calls on the United Nations for help, and

1740
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:06,920
Speaker 13: the UN orchestrates this massive peacekeeping operation the Congo really

1741
01:38:07,200 --> 01:38:10,360
Speaker 13: remarkably fast operation. In a matter of days, there are

1742
01:38:10,400 --> 01:38:12,479
Speaker 13: thousands of troops on the ground in Congo and the

1743
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:17,400
Speaker 13: UN has never done anything like this before. It's supervised,

1744
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:21,480
Speaker 13: sees fires and truces, but not been responsible for restoring.

1745
01:38:21,320 --> 01:38:22,719
Speaker 4: Order to an entire country.

1746
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:26,760
Speaker 13: Dog Hammerschuld is the Secretary General of the UN at

1747
01:38:26,760 --> 01:38:30,640
Speaker 13: the time, he responds with alacrity and sets up this

1748
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:35,639
Speaker 13: peacekeeping mission. But then very quickly, the UN peacekeeping mission

1749
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:38,719
Speaker 13: doesn't do what La Mumba wants it to do, namely

1750
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:42,400
Speaker 13: to reintegrate that breakaway province, the province of Katongo, which

1751
01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:45,519
Speaker 13: had announced its secession. So the UN goes into Congo,

1752
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:49,040
Speaker 13: imagining it can be a neutral mediator, but what it

1753
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:52,839
Speaker 13: discovers pretty quickly is that they're actually important political choices

1754
01:38:52,880 --> 01:38:55,240
Speaker 13: that have to be made where it's going to anger

1755
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:58,760
Speaker 13: one side or the other. So the UN refuses to

1756
01:38:59,120 --> 01:39:02,600
Speaker 13: go into Katonga at first, and Lamumba is extremely frustrated

1757
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:06,120
Speaker 13: with this effecklessness on its part, and it's then that

1758
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:09,160
Speaker 13: he tries the Americans, gets rebuffed, and only after that

1759
01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:11,599
Speaker 13: does he goes to the Soviet Union.

1760
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 4: Can you can you talk?

1761
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:16,080
Speaker 1: Can you talk real quickly about how the US viewed

1762
01:39:16,120 --> 01:39:20,479
Speaker 1: this as a success and what the implications were for

1763
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:24,439
Speaker 1: its kind of regime change policy over the next half

1764
01:39:24,520 --> 01:39:25,200
Speaker 1: century or more.

1765
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:30,000
Speaker 13: Yeah, So, in narrow Cold War terms, the anti La

1766
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:34,799
Speaker 13: Mumba operations that the CIA was undertaking, funding his enemies,

1767
01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:41,040
Speaker 13: bribing Mbutu to take power, organizing fake street protests against him,

1768
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 13: and so on. In narrow Cold War terms, this was

1769
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,040
Speaker 13: a success because you got rid of a potentially pro

1770
01:39:47,200 --> 01:39:50,280
Speaker 13: Soviet leader in Lamumba, never mind that that's an exaggeration,

1771
01:39:50,760 --> 01:39:54,960
Speaker 13: and you installed in his place a supposedly pliant American

1772
01:39:56,240 --> 01:39:59,760
Speaker 13: pro American dictator in Joseph Mogutu, never mind that he

1773
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:02,000
Speaker 13: took ANDed out to be far less pro American than

1774
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:06,439
Speaker 13: American officials hoped so in that by that sense it worked.

1775
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:10,240
Speaker 13: If you broad in the scope even just a little bit,

1776
01:40:10,760 --> 01:40:13,400
Speaker 13: to include, for instance, the plight of the Congolese people,

1777
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:16,960
Speaker 13: it becomes a failure. You have Mobutu in power for

1778
01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:19,800
Speaker 13: thirty plus years, nourished by American aid, nearly to the

1779
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:26,280
Speaker 13: very end, ran the country into the ground, extraordinary, extraordinarily kleptocratic, repressive,

1780
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:29,519
Speaker 13: and so on, and his regime's implosion kicked off a

1781
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:34,639
Speaker 13: massive civil war that killed millions. And also, I would

1782
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 13: argue you didn't even need to get rid of La

1783
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:39,920
Speaker 13: Mumba to have a country that was not communists and

1784
01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:43,760
Speaker 13: not pro Soviet. There's no world in which Lamuba was

1785
01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:46,479
Speaker 13: about to, after having thrown off the Belgian colonial yolk,

1786
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:49,080
Speaker 13: was going to turn around and allow his country to

1787
01:40:49,120 --> 01:40:53,400
Speaker 13: be dominated by the Soviets, yet within the CIA this

1788
01:40:53,520 --> 01:40:56,960
Speaker 13: was viewed as a success. Larry Devil in the CIA

1789
01:40:57,080 --> 01:40:59,639
Speaker 13: Station chief got promoted for his work in the Congo,

1790
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:02,519
Speaker 13: he won at least won an award for it, and

1791
01:41:02,600 --> 01:41:04,800
Speaker 13: then throughout the rest of the Cold War, as you know,

1792
01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:09,759
Speaker 13: there's this pattern of yet more instances where the CIA

1793
01:41:09,920 --> 01:41:17,439
Speaker 13: is intervening on behalf of a friendly tyrant and against

1794
01:41:17,479 --> 01:41:21,639
Speaker 13: the wishes of the democratic impulse of the broader population.

1795
01:41:21,840 --> 01:41:24,479
Speaker 13: So this was not something that was invented in Congo,

1796
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:27,960
Speaker 13: but I would argue was really perfected and most shown

1797
01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:32,400
Speaker 13: as a success quote unquote in Congo in nineteen sixty

1798
01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:35,120
Speaker 13: in nineteen sixty one, and would be a pattern that

1799
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:38,440
Speaker 13: would continue throughout the rest of the Cold War and arguably.

1800
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:38,639
Speaker 8: To this day.

1801
01:41:40,240 --> 01:41:41,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if people are watching the show out of order,

1802
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 3: they should go check out the block we did on

1803
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:48,400
Speaker 3: Immron Khan because to that point, to this day, there

1804
01:41:48,479 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 3: are still sort of strategic approaches that in some ways

1805
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 3: mirror this, Maybe not exactly, but in some ways, Stuart,

1806
01:41:55,400 --> 01:41:56,960
Speaker 3: do you actually have thoughts on that before we wrap

1807
01:41:57,000 --> 01:42:00,600
Speaker 3: as to how this you do see that creeping that

1808
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:04,799
Speaker 3: mentality continue to sort of privately as we get reporting,

1809
01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:07,439
Speaker 3: but also in some ways it's almost a public stance

1810
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 3: of the US government in certain cases that this is

1811
01:42:10,320 --> 01:42:11,800
Speaker 3: a mentality that makes sense.

1812
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:15,040
Speaker 8: I mean, take the case of Africa today.

1813
01:42:15,080 --> 01:42:17,760
Speaker 13: If you look at US policy on the continent, it's

1814
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:22,479
Speaker 13: very much security, have a counter terrorism focused there's still

1815
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:27,040
Speaker 13: this idea that the goal should be stability above all else,

1816
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:30,360
Speaker 13: and short term stability above long term stability. So you

1817
01:42:30,479 --> 01:42:35,920
Speaker 13: see across the Sahel, for instance, America having sort of

1818
01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:40,640
Speaker 13: supported building up the military institutions in various countries at

1819
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:44,879
Speaker 13: the expense of civil institutions. So there's that tendency that continues.

1820
01:42:44,960 --> 01:42:47,880
Speaker 13: I think the broader lesson of nineteen sixty nineteen sixty

1821
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:51,720
Speaker 13: one into Congo is the danger of paranoia, and that

1822
01:42:52,840 --> 01:42:56,240
Speaker 13: Americans were obsessed with what the Soviets were seemingly up

1823
01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:00,640
Speaker 13: to and invented all sorts of apparitions in their And

1824
01:43:00,720 --> 01:43:03,400
Speaker 13: so the lesson is that your geopolitical rival is often

1825
01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:07,240
Speaker 13: not ten feet tall, perfectly competent. And today you see

1826
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:10,000
Speaker 13: a lot of hyperventilation about what China and Russia are

1827
01:43:10,120 --> 01:43:12,439
Speaker 13: up to in Africa, But if you actually sort of

1828
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:13,000
Speaker 13: look at the.

1829
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:16,080
Speaker 8: Facts and what's really happening, it becomes less alarming.

1830
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:19,679
Speaker 3: If you like books like Devil's Chess Board and Chaos,

1831
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 3: you will like the La Mumbo Plot. Make sure to

1832
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:24,040
Speaker 3: pick up a copy of Sure Stewart. It makes a

1833
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,600
Speaker 3: great holiday gift as well as Stuart Read, author of

1834
01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 3: the La Mumba Plot.

1835
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:30,600
Speaker 8: Thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me.

1836
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:31,200
Speaker 8: This is fun.

1837
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:35,719
Speaker 3: Absolutely, we'll be back with more right after this. Well, Ryan, Actually,

1838
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:37,680
Speaker 3: there are a couple of developments that happened as we

1839
01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:39,680
Speaker 3: were taping the show this morning. One would be that

1840
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:43,000
Speaker 3: Norman Lear passed away, and I wanted to acknowledge that

1841
01:43:43,080 --> 01:43:47,080
Speaker 3: because it's a huge cultural development and he had so

1842
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:50,880
Speaker 3: much influence and did so much to shape American political culture,

1843
01:43:50,920 --> 01:43:55,479
Speaker 3: American family culture. So it's very very sad to hear

1844
01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:57,720
Speaker 3: the news that Norman Lear passed. Did you big all

1845
01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:00,720
Speaker 3: in the Family fan? Yeah?

1846
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 4: That was great? Yes, ye are me r P that's right? Yeah,

1847
01:44:05,360 --> 01:44:07,840
Speaker 4: our r I P R I P Norman Lear.

1848
01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:08,599
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1849
01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:14,040
Speaker 1: Incredible show and the way that like Archie Bunker, was

1850
01:44:14,040 --> 01:44:16,880
Speaker 1: supposed to be designed to be like a parody of

1851
01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:20,840
Speaker 1: the worst of the impulses of kind of America's white

1852
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:23,519
Speaker 1: working class and ended up becoming kind of a hero

1853
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:24,200
Speaker 1: rather than an.

1854
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:26,320
Speaker 4: Antihero for so many people.

1855
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:29,760
Speaker 1: Very kind of foreshadowed the Nixon kind of resentment and

1856
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:32,439
Speaker 1: the rise of the Reagan Revolution.

1857
01:44:32,600 --> 01:44:36,160
Speaker 3: You have, yeah, sort of a hero, but also you

1858
01:44:36,240 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 3: know what, people still laughed at his politics, and people

1859
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:44,120
Speaker 3: still laughed at his ignorance, but found the empathy. You've

1860
01:44:44,320 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 3: found that the capacity to sort of empathize with him

1861
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 3: in the sort of changing world and understand where he

1862
01:44:50,200 --> 01:44:53,200
Speaker 3: was coming from, while at the same time laughing at

1863
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:56,400
Speaker 3: the ignorance and sort of a way that was like, whoa,

1864
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,559
Speaker 3: this is not okay? Which is which is sort of interesting?

1865
01:44:59,760 --> 01:45:01,719
Speaker 1: That might that might be one that our younger viewers

1866
01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:04,200
Speaker 1: are just not familiar with. And I would encourage him

1867
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:07,320
Speaker 1: just dive into YouTube. I'm sure you can find a

1868
01:45:07,439 --> 01:45:09,200
Speaker 1: bunch of those clips. Search all of the family.

1869
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:09,920
Speaker 3: If you have.

1870
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:11,760
Speaker 4: It's a real window into the time.

1871
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:13,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna say, if you haven't seen it

1872
01:45:13,280 --> 01:45:14,639
Speaker 3: an you're younger, it's gonna be one of those things

1873
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:16,160
Speaker 3: if you watch a clip on YouTube and be like,

1874
01:45:16,280 --> 01:45:19,960
Speaker 3: this was on network television in prime time, Like people

1875
01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:21,120
Speaker 3: said this stuff.

1876
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:23,639
Speaker 4: People know what primetime is even anymore?

1877
01:45:23,760 --> 01:45:25,400
Speaker 1: So primetime was a thing you know, so there were

1878
01:45:25,439 --> 01:45:27,880
Speaker 1: only a couple of channels that you could watch, and

1879
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:33,920
Speaker 1: those channels would produce television shows, and the entire country,

1880
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 1: tens of millions of people would sit down and at

1881
01:45:37,240 --> 01:45:40,560
Speaker 1: a particular time, sit there and every week watch this

1882
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:43,760
Speaker 1: show at a designated time, not when they wanted to,

1883
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:45,599
Speaker 1: and not one after the other.

1884
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:46,599
Speaker 8: Just that. One.

1885
01:45:47,320 --> 01:45:49,479
Speaker 3: Another thing that broke while we were taping is that

1886
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:53,639
Speaker 3: The Federalist and the Daily Wire are actually being joined

1887
01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:57,320
Speaker 3: by the State of Texas in suing the State Department

1888
01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:00,479
Speaker 3: sort of a kind of a similar to Missouri Biden thing,

1889
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:04,000
Speaker 3: but suing the state Department for censorship for its funding

1890
01:46:04,240 --> 01:46:09,679
Speaker 3: of through different initiatives, groups that seek censorship, so using

1891
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:13,320
Speaker 3: taxpayer dollars basically to censor you know, news sites that

1892
01:46:13,360 --> 01:46:17,600
Speaker 3: are critical journalism that's critical of, uh, the administration, not

1893
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:19,679
Speaker 3: just the Biden administration. This was happening during the Trump

1894
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:22,920
Speaker 3: administration as well. So we'll obviously follow that story because

1895
01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:24,720
Speaker 3: my full time job is at The Federalist, but I

1896
01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:27,519
Speaker 3: wanted to mention that as well, Ryan, because Missouri v.

1897
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:30,599
Speaker 3: Biden has gone all the way up. This is going

1898
01:46:30,640 --> 01:46:33,479
Speaker 3: to be a landmark. The Missouri Biden v. Biden is

1899
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:36,479
Speaker 3: already in you know, clearly going to be a landmark

1900
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 3: case about how the government is able to sort of

1901
01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:43,639
Speaker 3: exercise its powers over speech, over social media, over journalism,

1902
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:46,400
Speaker 3: and this case is actually really testing that as well.

1903
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:51,479
Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to watch and so less people think

1904
01:46:51,600 --> 01:46:53,160
Speaker 1: by the way that I was foisting my kind of

1905
01:46:53,240 --> 01:46:56,280
Speaker 1: left wing agenda on Emily. Emily is the one that

1906
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:58,760
Speaker 1: suggested that we have Stuart Read to talk about the

1907
01:46:58,840 --> 01:46:59,559
Speaker 1: Lamova blat.

1908
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 4: Glad that you did.

1909
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:03,719
Speaker 1: And I'll be back and I'll be back in Washington

1910
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:06,120
Speaker 1: next week, looking forward to seeing everybody.

1911
01:47:06,600 --> 01:47:08,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're looking forward to that, Ryan. And if you're

1912
01:47:08,600 --> 01:47:10,800
Speaker 3: watching the debate tonight, remember there is a debate tonight.

1913
01:47:11,320 --> 01:47:14,599
Speaker 3: I will be carrying the coverage right afterwards on Serious

1914
01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:18,400
Speaker 3: XM between Megan Kelly getting off the stage and getting

1915
01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:21,080
Speaker 3: back to her microphone on Serious XM, so you can

1916
01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:23,800
Speaker 3: tune in for that. I'll be on the Full Spin

1917
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:25,760
Speaker 3: Room show with her after that as well. But if

1918
01:47:25,800 --> 01:47:29,439
Speaker 3: you're looking for a debate coverage between the debate, I'll

1919
01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:32,800
Speaker 3: be over on Serious XM Channel one eleven. Ryan. Any

1920
01:47:32,840 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 3: appearances for the book that people should be on the.

1921
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:36,800
Speaker 4: Lookout for, well, if you're in LA. You can come

1922
01:47:36,840 --> 01:47:38,160
Speaker 4: to love it or leave it tonight.

1923
01:47:38,200 --> 01:47:40,840
Speaker 1: I think that's like a pod Save in the pod

1924
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:45,640
Speaker 1: Save universe that'll be tonight in Los Angeles, and a

1925
01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:46,559
Speaker 1: bunch of other stuff.

1926
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:49,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, looking forward to getting back to regular work.

1927
01:47:50,479 --> 01:47:53,400
Speaker 3: Sounds great. We will see you all back here with

1928
01:47:53,560 --> 01:47:55,880
Speaker 3: Ryan in the studio next week. Have a great one

1929
01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 3: over