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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: The community is stunned after they learn that hiker Mom

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Speaker 2: out on a very well known trail, the Maw and

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Speaker 2: Paw Trail, ends up brutally murdered and I think sex

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Speaker 2: attacked as well. But in the last days, a major

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Speaker 2: break in the case in the search for the killer

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Speaker 2: of a mother of five, so called hiker Mom, Rachel Mourn.

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us here at Foxination and series XM one eleven.

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Speaker 3: We have a very.

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Speaker 2: Good idea who is the purp? First of all, take

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Speaker 2: a listen to our friend, Colonel William Davis.

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Speaker 4: DNA evidence is part of newly every modern day investigation

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Speaker 4: and in Rachel's case, DNA evidence was collected by our

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Speaker 4: Forensic Services Union. That DNA was analyzed by the Maryland

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Speaker 4: State Police and it was ran through the National Code Assystem.

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Speaker 5: DNA evidence is I mean this DNA.

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Speaker 4: Evidence has come back as a match tied to a

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Speaker 4: home invasion and insult and an assault of a young

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Speaker 4: girl in Los Angeles this past March. Unfortunately, that suspect

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Speaker 4: has not been positive identified, but he did leave.

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Speaker 5: Behind his DNA Based on the DNA evidence.

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Speaker 4: We considered the individual in the video we obtained from

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Speaker 4: the Los Angeles Police Department and.

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Speaker 5: That we are about to show you on our TV.

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Speaker 4: Screens to be a person that murdered Rachel Mooren on

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Speaker 4: August fifth DNA.

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Speaker 3: Isn't it amazing?

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Speaker 2: We actually have someone's genetic identification deyak survivy Nclake acid.

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Speaker 2: It's a genetic fingerprint, But we don't have the herb.

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Speaker 2: We don't know his name. We know everything about him

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Speaker 2: because of his DNA, but we don't have him. And

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Speaker 2: why do we think he is Rachel's killer? What more

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Speaker 2: do we know?

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Speaker 3: Listen?

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Speaker 5: Based and our analysis of this video at Weakness.

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Speaker 4: Observations, we believe the suspect to be approximately five foot nine,

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Speaker 4: one hundred and sixty pounds and of Hispanic descent. If

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Speaker 4: you have any information about his suspect, we are asking

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Speaker 4: you to preese call our detectives at our tip line

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Speaker 4: and if my number is four to one zero eight

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Speaker 4: three six seven, seven eighty eight. And we've also established

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Speaker 4: a dedicated tip email address and that email address is

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Speaker 4: r M.

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Speaker 5: Tips at Harperdshriff dot org.

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Speaker 4: Again, that's RM as a Razor moren Tips at Harperdshriff

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Speaker 4: dot Org.

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Speaker 2: It's killing me to know that we know so much

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Speaker 2: about the man believed to have murdered this beautiful young

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Speaker 2: mom of four, but he's connected to a home invasion

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Speaker 2: assault in LA over two thousand miles away. A joining

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Speaker 2: me an all star panel to make sense of what

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Speaker 2: we know right now. But first take a listen to

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Speaker 2: our cut seventy six from the Harvard Sheriff's Office.

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Speaker 4: We collected DNA from our crime scene. The Maryland State

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Speaker 4: Police analyzed that crime that DNA for US, ran it

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Speaker 4: through the National Code System and that came back as

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Speaker 4: a match through through the crime that occurred in Los

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Speaker 4: Angeles where they had recovered DNA from this person that

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Speaker 4: you saw in the video, the video.

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Speaker 5: That we watched.

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Speaker 6: Let it tell us about I mean what Los Angeles

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Speaker 6: police released the chievele.

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Speaker 5: What is it is that's home? Is it at a

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Speaker 5: scene of a crime? Is at a home?

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Speaker 4: And that is a suspect leaving the home the scene

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Speaker 4: of the crime there and that was a home invasion

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Speaker 4: and assault, he said, correct of.

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Speaker 5: A little girl? Is that just a young girl that's

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Speaker 5: only going to leave it? A had a younger. I

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Speaker 5: don't want to talk about the family there, but it

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Speaker 5: was a young girl in the house at kind of soul.

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Speaker 2: We know so much. He's within our grasp, but we

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Speaker 2: don't have a name. And also interesting, we don't have

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Speaker 2: a face. Again, I'm Nancy Grace and this is his

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Speaker 2: crime stories. Thanks for being with us, joining us right now.

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Speaker 2: Sheriff Jeffrey Gaelor, Sheriff of the Harford County Sheriff's Office,

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Speaker 2: and you can find him at Hartfordshriff dot org. Sheriff,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for being with us. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get to the who, what, where, wife? When? But

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Speaker 2: does it just drive you crazy? You know so much

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Speaker 2: about this guy. You know his origin, you know his height,

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Speaker 2: you know all about him is very d and a.

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Speaker 3: But you don't know who he is.

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Speaker 2: You can't put out an APB on you know, Charles Madson,

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Speaker 2: you can't do it.

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Speaker 3: You don't have a name. Is that driving you crazy?

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Speaker 6: Sure?

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Speaker 7: Nancy, thanks for having me on, and you know it's

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Speaker 7: what our detectives working so hard on. Is what's driving

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Speaker 7: our community crazy. It is frustrating. But the reason we

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Speaker 7: appreciate the opportunity to be on any media is because

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Speaker 7: someone out there does know that person's name. Someone's gonna

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Speaker 7: look at that video. Someone's going to look at the

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Speaker 7: still shots from the video. And I'm as frustrated as

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Speaker 7: everybody else. I read the comments on social media. Where's

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Speaker 7: the other side of his face? If we had it,

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Speaker 7: we would put it out there. We just haven't obtained

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Speaker 7: it yet. Hopefully there's some medicinal video footage that will.

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Speaker 5: Come our way.

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Speaker 7: But off of what's there, off of his build, off

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Speaker 7: of his walk, off of his appearance, there's someone out

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Speaker 7: there in the world who knows exactly who that person is,

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Speaker 7: and we need that person to tell us so that

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Speaker 7: we can get a match on the DNA and put

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Speaker 7: this monster behind bars.

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Speaker 2: This is reminiscent of a case now famous or should

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Speaker 2: I say infamous, The disappearance of Jennifer CHESSI a beautiful

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Speaker 2: young girl. When her parents got to her condo when

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Speaker 2: she didn't show up for work, they see that she's

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Speaker 2: just gotten out of the shower. It's still damp, the

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Speaker 2: towels are damp, her clothes for the day are laid out.

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Speaker 2: She liked to lay her clothes out on the bed

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Speaker 2: before she went to work. But no Jennifer, an exhaustive

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Speaker 2: search has ensued since Jennifer went missing, and a video emerges. Yes,

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Speaker 2: a video of an unknown mail walking directly along in

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Speaker 2: front of her condo, but no face. Take a listen

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Speaker 2: to our cuar friends from CBS.

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Speaker 8: The person could not be identified because the surveillance video

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Speaker 8: captured a photo every three seconds, and each time the

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Speaker 8: figure's face was obstructed by a fence post. In twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 8: the Kessies recruited private investigator Michael Terretta to help them

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Speaker 8: conduct their own investigation. Tretta learned from speaking with people

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Speaker 8: who lived in Jennifer's complex that construction workers were living

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Speaker 8: in an empty apartment just across from Jennifer.

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Speaker 2: All this that's even a video, but just at the

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Speaker 2: right moment the camera panned and didn't get the face.

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Speaker 3: Joining me.

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Speaker 2: In addition to special guest Sheriff Jeffrey Gailor, Vincent Hill,

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter of Fox forty five of Baltimore, Interesting, former

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Speaker 2: police officer MPI, author of Playbook to a Murder, tell

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Speaker 2: me all about everything you know about getting the DNA

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Speaker 2: and about this video that has emerged out of.

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Speaker 6: LA Well, Nancy, first, I can say when we were

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Speaker 6: watching the pressure in the newsroom. It was a WTS moment,

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Speaker 6: if you will. A guy from La or wherever he's from.

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Speaker 6: His DNA sign found at Rachel's crime scene. Total shock,

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Speaker 6: and of course our viewers want to know, well, why

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Speaker 6: do we not know this guy's name because we have

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Speaker 6: this DNA. But a lot of people don't understand. If

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Speaker 6: he's never been arrested before, you're not going to have

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Speaker 6: his name even though it's DNA. Maybe in Cotis he

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Speaker 6: may be walking out doing other crimes and no one

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Speaker 6: knows who he is.

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Speaker 3: Vincent, hold on, hold on, I got to follow up

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Speaker 3: on what you're saying. Don't lose your thought.

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Speaker 2: Sheriff Gailor please jump in whenever you have a thought

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Speaker 2: with me. Jessica Garth, chief of the Special Victims Family

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Speaker 2: Violence Unit, Prince George County, veteran trial lawyer. Jessica, you

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Speaker 2: hear people, and I'm afraid that includes jurrrs. They'd say, well,

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Speaker 2: you got a fingerprint, can't you match it up. You

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Speaker 2: can get a perfectly beautiful, perfect pristine latent print, in

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Speaker 2: other words, the one found at the scene to Layton print.

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Speaker 2: But unless you have something to compare it too, you

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Speaker 2: can't get a name. Here's a good example, like DNA

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Speaker 2: and coburger. There's three unknown male DNA profiles found in

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Speaker 2: and around the home where the four students were slain.

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Speaker 3: But they've tried and tried. You got to have something

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Speaker 3: to match it too in order to present that to

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Speaker 3: a jury.

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Speaker 2: If the purp has never been arrested, it's not in

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Speaker 2: the system, has had to give a fingerprint for any reason,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing to compare it to. So, yes, we've got

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Speaker 2: this guy's DNA that we think murdered Rachel Mourn, leaving

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Speaker 2: our five children without a mother. They've been split up

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Speaker 2: and gone to different homes, but we can't get the

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Speaker 2: guy explained.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, that's exactly right. So you know, we kind of

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Speaker 9: refer to it as the CSI effect when we're trying

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Speaker 9: cases that jurors expect that we're going to have, you know,

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Speaker 9: all kinds of DNA evidence, fingerprint evidence, and that there

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Speaker 9: will be an immediate match. It's going to pop up

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Speaker 9: on the screen and it's going to tell us, you know,

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Speaker 9: who committed the crime. But you're exactly right, you know,

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Speaker 9: you have to have a suspect to compare it to.

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Speaker 9: So what our DNA analysts do is they develop what's

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Speaker 9: called a profile. And I'll leave it to the doctors

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Speaker 9: to explain that a little bit more. But they we

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Speaker 9: take that profile and we compare it to the known

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Speaker 9: profile of a suspect, and when those two profiles match,

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Speaker 9: you know, our experts give us a statistic, a degree

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Speaker 9: of certainty that it is the same person who left

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Speaker 9: the DNA, and lawyers, it's hard job to explain to

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Speaker 9: the jury that, you know, the statistic means that this

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Speaker 9: is the person who left the DNA on the scene.

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Speaker 9: But if you don't have that person to compare it to,

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Speaker 9: then you just you know, your investigators are just trying

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Speaker 9: to track down who they can draw that profile from.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Back to you, Vincent Hill, forty five, Baltimore, Go ahead, Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I mean a lot of viewers are trying to track

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Speaker 6: down why do we not know this guy's name. I mean,

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Speaker 6: I've seen the comments all over Facebook or social media.

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Speaker 6: And again, if he hasn't been arrested, It's like I

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Speaker 6: told my newsroom, if he hasn't been arrested, this guy

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Speaker 6: is free to walk around until he does something even

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Speaker 6: more drastic, more horristic and he's actually caught. But to

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Speaker 6: go back to something else, we only have a side

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Speaker 6: profile in the back of his head. I tell you

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Speaker 6: for a fact that my mother, even at fifty years old,

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Speaker 6: could spot my head from a crowd. So someone knows

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Speaker 6: who this guy is just by that big picture of

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Speaker 6: him walking out of this house in Los Angeles and.

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Speaker 7: Nancy Jeff I agree with Vincent one hundred percent. That's

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Speaker 7: what I said. And I think it's going to be,

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Speaker 7: you know, opportunities like this to reach a large audience,

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Speaker 7: to have people go to our social media page and

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Speaker 7: look at this. I said in a few hours after

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Speaker 7: we didn't have somebody in custody very quick, that this

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Speaker 7: is going to be solved through science and technology. And

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Speaker 7: the science part has narrowed us down to this individual.

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Speaker 7: And I wish the technology had given us a better picture.

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Speaker 7: We're still out there scouring and hopefully we can come

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Speaker 7: up with one, but this is what we have for now.

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Speaker 7: But I agree with Vincent one hundred percent. Somebody knows.

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Speaker 7: Somebody looks at that picture and they know exactly who

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Speaker 7: this person is.

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Speaker 2: Hey, guys, you know doctor Bethony Marshall. Of course I

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Speaker 2: agree with Sheriff Gailler. That pretty much goes, you know, unsane,

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Speaker 2: and we know I'm going to.

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Speaker 3: Agree with him. Visit Hill. I agree with you partially.

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Speaker 2: Yes, your mother may be able to pick your head

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Speaker 2: out of a crowd. I could pick out my children,

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Speaker 2: I could pick out my husband. But what mom is

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Speaker 2: going to turn in their child? And what mom who

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Speaker 2: is gonna id some guy's head? Well, you know what,

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Speaker 2: let me throw this to a shrink, all right. Doctor

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Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall is joining us so I Psychoanalyst out of

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Speaker 2: Beverly Hills at Dodtor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany

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Speaker 2: bottom line, if you can identify somebody's head, you're not

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Speaker 2: turning them in. You know why, because you're close to them.

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Speaker 2: It's got to be a mother or a sister. Not

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Speaker 2: gonna turn them in unless they've got some very unless

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Speaker 2: they're like a conehead. That was a very odd shaped

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Speaker 2: head that coworkers can identify.

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Speaker 10: It's so true, Nantha, you know this family. Well, First

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Speaker 10: of all, this perp probably went straight to mommy's house

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Speaker 10: after the commission of the crime, because that's what they

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Speaker 10: always do.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that, because this is in. Typically, yes,

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Speaker 2: they go run to mommy's isn't that true? Sheriff Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Gaelor when a guy bs bond, forfeits or does show

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Speaker 2: up to court, I always say, go to mommy's house

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Speaker 2: and look under the bed and look in her closet.

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Speaker 2: She took him in, that's where he is. They always

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Speaker 2: go to the auntie, the grandma, the mommy. That's typically true.

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Speaker 7: No, I would just agree with you, you know, being

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Speaker 7: a mom or be a family. You know, people when

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Speaker 7: they're they're in trouble, Yeah, that's that's where they turn

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Speaker 7: to and that's who they trust will hide. But this person,

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Speaker 7: this person should not be hidden. This person is a

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Speaker 7: threat to every single person on the planet until we

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Speaker 7: figure out where they are. I'll say on the planet,

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Speaker 7: because wherever he is, whether he's still here in our

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Speaker 7: community or he's moved to you know, next surrounding statu

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Speaker 7: he's came back to LA, he poses a threat anybody

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Speaker 7: that would commit these kind of crimes in both the

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Speaker 7: LA and our homicide here. He poses a threat to

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Speaker 7: anyone who's around, family member or not, and he needs

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Speaker 7: to be taken off the street.

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Speaker 2: You know what you left out a big swath of

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Speaker 2: area between LA and bel Air, Maryland, not bel Air, California,

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Speaker 2: all in between. How the hey does he get That's

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Speaker 2: what we counted up, Jackie. What was it? Twenty six

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Speaker 2: one hundred miles twenty six sixty nine miles from Maryland

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Speaker 2: to LA.

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Speaker 3: How the hey did he get that far?

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Speaker 2: And I'm looking at his picture, Guys, I assume everybody

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Speaker 2: has looked at the stills or the video. Let's talk

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Speaker 2: about what we see in this picture.

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Speaker 3: Number one? Do you see the hairstyle?

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Speaker 2: I guarantee you he's either got still that hairstyle or

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Speaker 2: something similar where part of his head is shaved from

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Speaker 2: like the neck up and then he's got like a

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Speaker 2: fake mullet.

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Speaker 3: Going down the back.

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Speaker 2: There's going to be some type of a unique hairstyle,

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Speaker 2: mark my words. Okay, he looks to me between I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna go with nineteen to twenty nine.

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Speaker 3: Do you agree with that or disagree?

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Speaker 7: Hereff Gaylor, Yeah, we put it at twenty to thirty,

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Speaker 7: so right in that same ballpark. But you're the haircuts

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Speaker 7: very distinctive. It's been it's been the number one source

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Speaker 7: of the tips that we've received. And I would ask

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Speaker 7: you know anybody hearing this and if they have a tip.

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Speaker 7: You said the numbers earlier, but we have a special

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Speaker 7: email box RM Tips Rachel Morin Tips RM tips at

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Speaker 7: Harpershriff dot org. Did let us know, But that hairstyle

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Speaker 7: is certainly distinct. And I think if you look at

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Speaker 7: his walk, you know how he carries himself. You know,

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Speaker 7: he's a muscular young man and five nine hundred and

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Speaker 7: sixty pounds. Again, somebody has seen him, somebody has maybe

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Speaker 7: been at the gym with him or or working a

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Speaker 7: job with him. Somebody knows who he is on that picture.

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Speaker 10: And Nancy, not only that, but he's a menacing figure.

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Speaker 10: And even though the family may circle the wagons, just

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Speaker 10: like remember Brian Landry's family, they knew possibly that he

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Speaker 10: had murdered Gabby Patito, But did they turn him in?

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Speaker 10: Did they assist Gaby Potito's family? No, they circled the

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Speaker 10: right wagons and they protected their own son. But with

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Speaker 10: this purp because he's menacing, because he's a creeper, I'm

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Speaker 10: sure that there's women, he stated, people he went to

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Speaker 10: high school with, people he works with. Who knows that

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Speaker 10: there's something off or wrong about these guys. Right, even

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Speaker 10: like with Brian Coberger, all these people are coming forward

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Speaker 10: now saying that he was dominating other women, that he

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Speaker 10: was a scary figure, that he was a bully. So

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Speaker 10: there are plenty of people. I don't think we have

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Speaker 10: to rely on the family to come forward because there

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Speaker 10: are people in his circle who knows something's wrong with him.

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Speaker 3: Hey, guys, I want to find out Vincent Heel.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me what is he accused of doing

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Speaker 2: in LA specifically?

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Speaker 6: Well, Nancy and I may I get to share to

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Speaker 6: correct me on this, but I believe there was some

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Speaker 6: type of home invasion and assault of a young female

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Speaker 6: in side that home in Los Angeles back in March

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Speaker 6: of this year. But I refer to the shriff on that.

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Speaker 6: But I believe that's the information we received from the

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Speaker 6: Los Angeles Police Department.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a look at the video. He's opening up

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Speaker 2: the door of the home of the victim. I think

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Speaker 2: that he raped.

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Speaker 3: He's leaving. He doesn't even have his shirt on.

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Speaker 2: Man, could you at least get dressed before you leave.

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Speaker 2: It's in a residential neighborhood, it's in the evening, don't

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Speaker 2: know what time. It's a female victim them is different

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Speaker 2: because here he's gone into the home and he has

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Speaker 2: I believe raped a female victim.

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Speaker 3: We're hearing assault, but we.

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Speaker 2: Know that there's DNA and that makes me think that

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Speaker 2: it's sperm.

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Speaker 3: So was it a rape? Sheriff killer?

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Speaker 7: I'm not gonna because you know, there's still part of

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Speaker 7: the active investigation other than what we've released with your

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Speaker 7: spot on a home invasion with an assault we're not covering. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 7: I'm not at liberty to go into any other details,

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Speaker 7: but it certainly you know, his actions there are similar

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Speaker 7: to some of the mo that we have here. I'll

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Speaker 7: just leave it.

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Speaker 2: At that exactly, okay, And I of course do not

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Speaker 2: want to in any way and pay the investigation or

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Speaker 2: harm the integrity of the investigation. So when you finally,

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Speaker 2: god willing, get to trial, you can be accused spouting

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Speaker 2: out information that's privy to the case.

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Speaker 7: We want to give our investigators every opportunity to, you know,

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Speaker 7: to keep it to what it needs to be kept

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Speaker 7: out of the public for right now, but while we

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Speaker 7: still share what we can to help us bring this

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Speaker 7: person in the custody. And again you touched on the

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Speaker 7: thing about traveling, we don't know whether he lives there

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Speaker 7: and was visiting out here, or whether he visits you know,

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Speaker 7: was visiting out there when he committed this crime, that

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Speaker 7: crime in March and lives out here, or any combination thereof.

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Speaker 7: He could live in Ohio and just have visited both

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Speaker 7: places to commit these acts. So until we know who

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Speaker 7: he is, we don't know what part of the country

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Speaker 7: he is hanging his hat.

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Speaker 2: No, Sheriff, I don't think he visited one of the

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Speaker 2: two places just to commit the act. I think he's

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Speaker 2: a predator. He happened to be in LA for whatever reason.

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Speaker 2: I don't think he went there just to assault. I'll

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Speaker 2: say assault because we don't know if it was a

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Speaker 2: rape or asadomy. We don't know if it was touched

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Speaker 2: DNA somewhere in the home. But we know there was

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Speaker 2: a home invasion and there was an assault on a

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Speaker 2: female victim in LA, and that there's DNA.

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Speaker 3: We know that in Bela or Maryland.

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Speaker 2: It's a completely different scenario, different modus opread my method

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Speaker 2: of operation. He's out on a hiking trail, he sees

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Speaker 2: a lone female and I'm assuming the female in LA

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Speaker 2: was alone. Don't know her age, but he sees a

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Speaker 2: female alone and he pounces and he I believe raped

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Speaker 2: Rachel Morin and murdered her. I know you're I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to tell me whether she was raped or not.

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Speaker 2: But we're getting DNA from somewhere. Plus we know that

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Speaker 2: she was naked and lying on her back, or so

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Speaker 2: we've been told.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: Straight to doctor Monte Miller, Director Forensic DNA Experts LLC,

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Speaker 2: specialists in sex assaults and murder. Now this is where

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Speaker 2: he gets a lot of his training, former forensic scientists

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Speaker 2: for the Texas Department of Public Safety Crime Lab. Can

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Speaker 2: I tell you how many thousands of DNA comparisons you

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Speaker 2: do if you're.

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Speaker 3: At the crime lab.

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Speaker 2: You can find them at FORENSICDNA Experts dot com. Doctor

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Speaker 2: Monty Miller, thank you for being with us. You're hearing

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Speaker 2: the facts as I am. Tell me what you think

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Speaker 2: happened in LA and what you think happened in Maryland.

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Speaker 11: Well, I think that First of all, I'd like to

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Speaker 11: commend the police departments, both of them, for doing the

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Speaker 11: DNA and getting it out quickly.

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Speaker 3: Amen, brother, you're so right about that. Go ahead.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, we have so many cases that sit there for

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Speaker 11: a while. And they're not able to identify the person

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Speaker 11: quickly when the second crime had happens because the first

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Speaker 11: lab hasn't finished. So yeah, I mean the crime.

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Speaker 10: Labs did a good job.

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Speaker 3: He just gave me a horrible feeling.

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Speaker 2: You remember Eliza Fletcher, the Memphis mom that was out

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Speaker 2: jogging four am. I think she had two children at

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Speaker 2: home doing it all, and this PERV grabs her, I

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Speaker 2: believe rapes her, murders her, and he had actually committed

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Speaker 2: another rate. But the DNA could have been sitting on

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Speaker 2: a shelf for like a year, and if he had

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Speaker 2: been apprehended in that rate, Eliza Fletcher would be alive today.

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Speaker 11: Well yeah, and that's exactly what they did great in

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Speaker 11: this case. You know, they they did the DNA and

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Speaker 11: so somebody didn't go at least unnoticed for a second

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Speaker 11: crime across the country. So, but he has left his

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Speaker 11: DNA so that you know, there's a good indication that

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Speaker 11: there was some DNA that they knew came from him

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Speaker 11: inside that house, and that you know oftentimes comes from

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Speaker 11: a sexual assault because you know, they have DNA that

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Speaker 11: from sperm and they that way they know that it's

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Speaker 11: the perpetrator and not somebody else who visited that house.

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Speaker 11: So whatever it is, they're confident that they got his

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Speaker 11: DNA from that house. It doesn't look like he's leaving

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Speaker 11: in a hurry, or that he's bloody, or that he's injured,

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Speaker 11: so it could have been touched DNA, but you know,

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Speaker 11: there's a good chance that was a sexual assault. And

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Speaker 11: the same thing with you know, the murder victim Rachel Marin.

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Speaker 11: You know, they might have gotten DNA off of the

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Speaker 11: rock that was found that he used to hit her,

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Speaker 11: but that might have bled and other things on it.

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Speaker 11: So a sexual assault is oftentimes the best case to

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Speaker 11: get a really good DNA profile because you know it

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Speaker 11: came from the person who had sexual intercourse with the

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Speaker 11: other person. So you know, I think there's a good

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Speaker 11: chance they're both sexual assaults if one of them is.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing the voice of dutch A Monte Miller, director

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Speaker 2: at Forensic DNA Experts dot com.

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Speaker 3: Who is that jumping in.

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Speaker 7: Me, Sheriff. I was just going to say, you know,

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Speaker 7: I hear you know a lot of speculation. Again, I

437
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 7: just wish I was in more of a position to

438
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 7: be able to speak freely, but I just you know,

439
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 7: I've heard how the scene looks and this and that.

440
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 7: I just want to be clear that we haven't released

441
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 7: any of those investigative details, and we know, we know

442
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 7: some of the information out there as accurate. We know

443
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 7: some of it is not accurate, and I wish I

444
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 7: could clarify which is which. But you're one hundred percent right,

445
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 7: I mean, but DNA can be left in many different ways,

446
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 7: and I am thankful that it was, you know, and right. Again,

447
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 7: I'd rather have this guy's name and face straight on,

448
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 7: But I'm thankful that LA detectives out there took that

449
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 7: case seriously. They did a good investigation, which you know,

450
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 7: included the collection of DNA at the scene and has

451
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 7: put Carting back a tie. You know, so much of

452
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 7: policing used to be cops, just cops and robbers. But

453
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 7: now without our civilian forensic experts and the people the

454
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 7: science part of this thing, we'd be nowhere in this investigation.

455
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 5: And that is it's important to note.

456
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 7: But again, I hate to be the guest who kind

457
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 7: of has the fashion in his head, but it's not

458
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 7: free to share him. But that's unfortunately where I find myself.

459
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 7: As I listened to the other callers, you know what's interesting.

460
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 2: I'm taking from what you said. I'm interpreting that we

461
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: got one of those facts wrong. Maybe it's the rock.

462
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 2: Maybe she wasn't naked, maybe she wasn't on her back,

463
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: maybe there wasn't a rape.

464
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 3: We got something wrong, but we got something right.

465
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 2: But it's the share of Jeffrey Gailler refuses to play

466
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: twenty one questions with me. I'm going to go forward

467
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: with what I do know, and you know what this

468
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: is reminding me of Jackie.

469
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 3: Let's take a listen to our cut seventy seven.

470
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 4: I think now it kind of leads us down the

471
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 4: path that we believe this was a person that racial

472
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 4: probably didn't know, maybe you could say, potentially a random

473
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 4: act of violence. And we're hoping that the community now

474
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 4: can watch that video and we also got steel pictures

475
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 4: that we're going to be putting out and that somebody

476
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 4: can identify who.

477
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 5: We don't have any clue where he could be.

478
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 4: We don't even know if he's still in Harper County

479
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 4: in the state of Maryland, because obviously in March he was.

480
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 5: In California, and then here in August he was here

481
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 5: in Maryland. So we don't know if he's still here

482
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 5: or not.

483
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 2: This is eerily reminiscent for various reasons of the Delphi murders.

484
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: A little Libby and Abby and I'll tell you why.

485
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: I take a listen our cut nine aar friends at

486
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: People magazine.

487
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 12: Police have announced that a widely circulated photo of the

488
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 12: main suspect and a double homicide of two Indiana teenagers

489
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 12: was taken by one of the victims before she was killed.

490
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 12: On February fourteenth. The bodies of Liberty German and Abigail

491
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 12: Williams were found one day after they were reported missing.

492
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 12: At a press conference on Wednesday, police announced that Liberty

493
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 12: not only took the photo of the male suspect, but

494
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 12: she also recorded a video moments before her death that

495
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 12: includes audio of a man talking, although officials are unsure

496
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 12: whether the voice belongs to the suspect.

497
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 2: You will recall with Abby and Libby, the two little

498
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: girls murdered off the trestle bridge in Delphi, that there

499
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: was wild speculation that there was a transient, someone that

500
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: had come from out of town. We argued against that

501
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: at the get go, because highly unlikely a transient would

502
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: have known about that trustle bridge kind of tucked away

503
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere.

504
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 3: It didn't make sense.

505
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: Now we're trying to figure out does this guy caught

506
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 2: on Servilli's video on a ring camera, a doorbell cam

507
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: in La does he live in bel Air, Maryland?

508
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 3: Now? Is he a transient?

509
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: If he is a transient, how did he know about

510
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: this hiking trail?

511
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 3: Now?

512
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 2: Isn't it true, Sheriff Giller, that the hiking trail butts

513
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 2: up against apartments.

514
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 7: Yes, the Monpi Hiking Trail actually working on a new

515
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 7: section of it that's going to connect it and make

516
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 7: it around eight I think it's about eight miles long

517
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 7: total when it's finished. So there's a north section in

518
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 7: the south section. This happened in the south section, which

519
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 7: is closer to the town of bel Air, the county seat.

520
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 7: Very very very safe. In fact, I can't even remember

521
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 7: when the last homicide in the town of bel Air

522
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 7: was the uh but it runs right behind the mall area,

523
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 7: the big shopping area for the town. It runs from

524
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 7: where she had parked her car. Where Rachel had parked

525
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 7: her car is right behind one of the local breweries.

526
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 7: Always a lot of people there, a bunch of condos

527
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 7: and it goes down behind the mall and stuff and

528
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 7: then finishes that the big fields where we actually have

529
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 7: our County Fair every year. It's a very very popular,

530
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 7: well used, improved trail from an old railroad system, the

531
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 7: mom Pow railroad that just gets gets a lot of

532
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 7: a lot of activity. And to have something out there

533
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 7: happen is just, you know, to have any crime out

534
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 7: there happen, it's just so far outside the norm, much

535
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 7: less something so horrific as Rachel's homicide.

536
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: Sure you gather ring video surveillance from the brewery and

537
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: anyone else in those apartments and homes that look onto

538
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: the trail or onto the trail head.

539
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, we have collected.

540
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 7: Investigators have collected all the video. Unfortunately, there's not video

541
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 7: on the trail. It's actually the part of the trailer.

542
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 7: The trail is part of the Harper County Parks and

543
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 7: WRECTS system. They have announced the Parks and Wrecks have

544
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 7: announced that they're going to put cameras along the trail now,

545
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 7: which would be great, but unfortunately we didn't have them before.

546
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 7: But we've also done solicitations out in the public, social

547
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 7: media and through our robocall system asking people you know

548
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 7: for video footage around the time that Rachel went missing

549
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 7: and to where she was discovered. Because yeah, we're hopeful

550
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 7: as we pour through all this investigators pour through all

551
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 7: this video footage and stuff that we have been able

552
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 7: to gather, that we'll get a better picture of this individual,

553
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 7: of the suspect, and perhaps a vehicle or something like that.

554
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 7: But you know, we do not have that at this moment.

555
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 3: And of another case.

556
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 2: So that I worked with the victims' families, the family

557
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: of Jennifer, you and beautiful mom, who would ride about

558
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: a fifty mile bike trail multiple times a week. She

559
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: was about thirty ish miles in on the Silver Comet

560
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: trail when she was attacked and murdered by Michael Ludford.

561
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: Michael Ludford.

562
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: Surrounding the trail, there were a number of vantage points

563
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: where you could see onto this trail, including apartments, and

564
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: this guy Lesford had been scaring women and exposing himself

565
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: and staring at them, survealing them many times before Jennifer

566
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: was murdered. So let me go to you, doctor Bethy Marshall.

567
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about why this trail. Was he

568
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: living in those apartments, was he living on the trail

569
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: as a transient in the woods, because.

570
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: I know for a fact that a group of.

571
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 2: Law enforcement LA were out in the woods, you know,

572
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: many feet off the trail, huddled together looking at something.

573
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: Did they find evidence someone had been living out there tinting?

574
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: You know Eric Rudolph who was the Olympic bomber in Atlanta.

575
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: Then he bombed to abortion clinics and by the way

576
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: the shrapnel hit my investigator, it was time. So one

577
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: would go off and then the next one would go

578
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: off as soon as people came to investigate the first one.

579
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: I don't know who this guy is. I don't know

580
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: why he's in bel Air, Maryland. Does he live there,

581
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: is he visiting? It's hard to believe he's he a

582
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: transient all the way from LA. But let's think about

583
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: them and another thing. Dr Bethany Marshall. I had a

584
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: gut feeling at the get go. I didn't go after

585
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: the boyfriend. There was just something about the fact that

586
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: he had her children. They were out looking for her,

587
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: he called nine one one. It just didn't feel right,

588
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: even though statistically it's the love object, but not in

589
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 2: this case.

590
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 3: So I'm glad we didn't put the nail in his coffin, right.

591
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 10: That's right, Nancy. There's something about the brutality of the

592
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 10: crime that tells me that sexual excitement and inflicting harm

593
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 10: were a part of them. And in terms of why

594
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 10: this trail whin you're an apartment building, why you're a

595
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 10: brewery and everything you're just describing. I have a theory

596
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 10: that he is a serial killer in the making, or

597
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 10: maybe he's already a serial killer, and there are multiple victims,

598
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 10: you know, in the pathway between the two crimes. But

599
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 10: if he's a serial killer in the making, his choice

600
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 10: of the mom pod trail is going to be influenced

601
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 10: by the victim profile, like who he's fishing for, who

602
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 10: is he on the hunt for? He's on the hunt

603
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 10: for young women. If the first victim was a very

604
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 10: young girl, you know, he could be a pedophile, that

605
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 10: that would be a part of his multiple perversions. And

606
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 10: also that the women who are vulnerable, women who are

607
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 10: on there are separated from family members or loved ones.

608
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 3: I think you said on their phone, did you say

609
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 3: on their phone.

610
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 10: On their own on their own own?

611
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: And I was saying that Rachel may have had earbudds

612
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: in I don't know that yet, but we believe that

613
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: may have happened.

614
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 10: Go ahead, Well, I'm suspecting victims, right, And also, this

615
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 10: guy is pretty brave. I mean, the fact that he

616
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 10: accosted a girl as a part of a home invasion

617
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 10: tells me that he's desperate. He's desperate to kill, He's

618
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 10: desperate to inflict cruelty while sexually accosting a victim. And

619
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 10: this desperation may have driven him to the mom Pod

620
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,239
Speaker 10: trail where it's very secluded. There are places where he

621
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 10: could hide, and there are easy weapons. You know, he

622
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 10: bashed her face in with a rock, so he didn't

623
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 10: have to go and buy and done. He didn't have

624
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 10: to go get a knife, he didn't have to do

625
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 10: anything like that. He didn't have to put a big

626
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 10: effort into it. All he had to do was hide

627
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 10: along the trail and wait, wait for Rachel Moore and

628
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 10: to come by. So so that to me speaks of

629
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 10: a certain type of desperation.

630
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 5: Nancy, if I can, I did.

631
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 7: I did want to say that. You know, we again,

632
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 7: we haven't released anything other than saying it was a

633
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 7: violent attack. As far as the specifics of how Rachel's

634
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 7: life was taken, but you talked to. The trail is

635
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 7: very popular, goes by a lot of different condos, buildings,

636
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 7: a couple of houses, housing areas. I don't know. I've

637
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 7: said on some of the interviews I've done my backyard

638
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,719
Speaker 7: actually hits a portion of the mom Pot Trail, so

639
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 7: we've always considered a very safe place. But again it

640
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 7: has very secluded areas along it, so you know it's

641
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 7: a place that they could hide. But this this individual,

642
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 7: I can tell you, although I want in the specifics

643
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 7: about how her life was taken, other than the general

644
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 7: saying it was very violent, this guy has an absolute

645
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 7: disregard for human life and I think he demonstrated that

646
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 7: in what I know of LA and obviously in the

647
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 7: homicide here. So yeah, talk about is he a serial

648
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 7: killer or is he becoming one? He certainly has no

649
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 7: care in the world for the value of a human life.

650
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

651
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 3: Guys.

652
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: Joining me right now is a very well known medical

653
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: examiner joining us out of the state of Florida, doctor

654
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 2: Tim Gallagher. I wanted him to hear the analysis before

655
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: he weighs in. Lecturer University of Florida Medical School, Forensic

656
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 2: medicine and the founder of the the International Forensic Medicine

657
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: Death Investigation Conference. He founded that a true expert in

658
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: his field, Doctor Gallagher, thank you for being with us,

659
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: Doctor Gallagher. The sheriff is neither confirming nor denying that

660
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 2: Rachel Morin was bludgeoned. We have also heard.

661
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 3: Reports, not from him, that she was naked.

662
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: A naked lady lying out on a trail tells me

663
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: she was sex assaulted. I'm curious how often you see

664
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: bludgeoning cases. Now, I'm not saying that's her cod cause

665
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: of death, which I want to also ask you, even

666
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 2: if she was bludgeoned, would you still be able to

667
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: determine if she was, for instance, asphyxiated, just because she's

668
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: been hit in the head with the rock. If she was,

669
00:35:55,080 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: and that's based on alleged eyewitness accounts, But the bludgeoning,

670
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: the bludgeoning, I find that peculiar. And I wonder if

671
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 2: the female victim in La was beaten about the face.

672
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: We don't know that. They seem very much opportunistic.

673
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: But what do you make of the bludgeoning and can

674
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: you get a different cause of death?

675
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 13: Doctor Gallagher, good points Nancy, typically the bludgeoning would be

676
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 13: if the offender needs the victim to become unresponsible very quickly.

677
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 13: You know, if a strangulation can take about three or

678
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 13: four minutes to complete, and to be on this popular

679
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 13: trail for three or four minutes strangling somebody, you know,

680
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 13: you would definitely get a lot of attention. But the bludgeoning,

681
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 13: and I'm going to assume here possible skull fractures or

682
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 13: an injury that would incapacitate the person instantaneously would be

683
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 13: more ad thanages you know, to his mo to sexually

684
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 13: offending on the victim, you know, and then leaving very

685
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 13: quickly before other people can come by and identify the scene.

686
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 13: So when we do the autopsy, these are things that

687
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 13: we look for. We look for the skull fractures, the

688
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 13: brain injuries, the internal bleeding that is representative of the

689
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 13: blunt force trauma. We also have to look at the

690
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 13: neck area, which is the most common area for strangulation,

691
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 13: and look at the muscles, look at the windpipe, look

692
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 13: at the blood vessels that are in there and see

693
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 13: if they have linear patterns of hemorrhage or linear patterns

694
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 13: of damage on them, which would be representative of a strangulation.

695
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 13: But we need to keep in mind that strangulation does

696
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 13: take three possibly four minutes to complete, and it certainly

697
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 13: would expose him for a long time on the trail.

698
00:37:53,600 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 13: So bludgeoning would render the person unconscious instantaneously and and

699
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 13: then the offender would be able to enact his mo Wow, well, Nancy,

700
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 13: that was a.

701
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: Lot of information. Is this Sheriff Gaylor?

702
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 5: No, this is Vnce, So go ahead.

703
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 6: As it Saturday, I had the opportunity to walk that trail.

704
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 6: They had a five k in honor of Rachel. I

705
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 6: actually walked with her sister, Rebecca. It was part of

706
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 6: my story for today. But as the ex cop and

707
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 6: private investigator, there were parts of the trail well where

708
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 6: I was literally thinking, wow, he could have lied and

709
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 6: wait right here, it's very secluded, could have done what

710
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 6: he had to do. He actually could have taken three

711
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 6: or four minutes to do whatever he had to do

712
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 6: with Rachel. Because there were parts of that trail, Nancy,

713
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 6: during that five k where I was just thinking, man,

714
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 6: he could have come from here. It backs up to

715
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 6: a road. At certain parts he could have parked the car.

716
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 6: It goes by a farmer's market. He could have parked

717
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 6: across the street. I mean, it's very secluded over in

718
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 6: that area, so there are plenty of opportunities for him

719
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 6: to have done something there. But I want to go

720
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 6: back to something you said earlier, Nancy, about Delphi and

721
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 6: the guy likely not knowing the trail. I'll be honest.

722
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 6: I've been living in the Baltimore area for almost a year.

723
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 6: I had never heard of the MA and Pa trail

724
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 6: until two weeks ago when Rachel went missing and her

725
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 6: body was found. So the investigator in me tells me

726
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 6: this guy knew about this trail. Because when I think

727
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 6: of Los Angeles and don't get offended by.

728
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 5: This sheriff dealer.

729
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 6: When I think of Los Angeles and I think of Maryland,

730
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 6: I don't think Hartford County. Most people think Baltimore, Annapolis, Aberdeen.

731
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 6: So that tells me this guy may have known the

732
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 6: area and known where that trail was.

733
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 7: I agree with one hundred percent of Vince. This is

734
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 7: not you know, we're a quiet new community about thirty

735
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 7: minutes north of Baltimore, and you know, not known for

736
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 7: known for low crime and the safe community. So it's

737
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 7: not generally where we have stuff like this, But not

738
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 7: generally if you're going around the country, you kind of

739
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 7: ha have to explain where it is in relation to

740
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 7: Baltimore because people just don't know where we're located.

741
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting, Sheriff and everybody jump in, Jessica Garth,

742
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: it's just right up your alley. In the LA case

743
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: where we get we believe the killer's DNA. I'm looking

744
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: in the video over and over and over. Somebody follows

745
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: him to the door and they shut the door behind him.

746
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: I'm not sure who that is, but it looks like

747
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 2: a female hand shutting the door behind him. That victim lived,

748
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 2: This victim did not. I'm curious about the differences in

749
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: the attacks, the method of operation, Sheriff gillor what do

750
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 2: you make of it?

751
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 7: Again, that's something that a lot of people have brought

752
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 7: to our attention that we know is there. We know

753
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 7: that there's an arm there, that somebody closes the door

754
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 7: behind the suspect leaving, and again, it's not what you

755
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 7: would expect a seasoned police officer would expect someone leaving

756
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 7: the scene of a crime, you know, the home invasion

757
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 7: and an assault to be casually walking out with his

758
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 7: clothes tucked under his arm. You know, and the door

759
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 7: being shut behind him. But you know, our investigators continue

760
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 7: to work the case hard to try to make sense

761
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 7: of what doesn't make sense by appearances, and hopefully, you know,

762
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 7: the investigation will explain all of those things out in time.

763
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 7: But the main thing that's needed at this point is

764
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 7: figuring out who this guy is.

765
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: Is that victim a minor? Was she a minor at

766
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: the time of the attack? Sheriff in La Yes, So

767
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: you know, think about that attacking a minor. I can

768
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: easily see a miner not really knowing what to do

769
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 2: after a rape or a sex assault or an ag

770
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 2: assault and walking it, walking to the door and shutting

771
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 2: it in complete. Astoun and can Usian what about it,

772
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: Jessica Garth. There's a big difference and a grown lady

773
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: like Rachel Moron who's thirty seven, and a girl, a

774
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: minor girl that's attacked.

775
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 9: One hundred percent degree. I mean, when I saw that

776
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 9: video and I saw that he had been essentially walked

777
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 9: out of the house of a few things occurred to me.

778
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 9: And of course it's it's speculation, but number one, if

779
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 9: this is a minor victim, which I am assuming since

780
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 9: her name hasn't been released then, and it was in

781
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 9: her own home. I mean, where's she going to run

782
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 9: to for safety. She's in the safest place that she knows.

783
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 9: So I think at some point it's just a matter

784
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 9: of staying alive in that situation. If this is a

785
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 9: grown man in her home, she's not going to fight back,

786
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 9: she's not going to create a fuss. She's going to

787
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 9: get out of the situation as safely as she can. So,

788
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 9: you know, if he is making moves to leave the home,

789
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 9: or if she said something like, oh, my parents are

790
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 9: going to come home, you have to get out of here,

791
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 9: and he's leaving, she's just going to let him leave,

792
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 9: and she's going to close that door, and I'm sure

793
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 9: a locket immediately behind him. And the second thing I

794
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 9: thought was that even if it were a grown woman,

795
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,439
Speaker 9: you know, playing along or going along with somebody who's

796
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 9: assaulting you is one method to survive a violent attack

797
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 9: like this.

798
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: You're right, Rachel Moran may have fought back and this

799
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: young girl didn't or couldn't. Doctor Monte Miller joining us

800
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: for forensic DNA experts, what's your analysis of what we

801
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: know right now?

802
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 11: Well, I think that you know, we have the guys DNA,

803
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 11: and so we're going to be able to identify the

804
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 11: guy at some point, like like you know, other people

805
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 11: have mentioned, he's probably going to turn out to be

806
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 11: a serial killer or something similar or certainly has no

807
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 11: problem killing people and raping people and having, you know,

808
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 11: any kind of issues. So the guy's going to continue

809
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 11: to do these things. We're going to continue to find

810
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 11: his DNA until we find out who he is, until

811
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 11: we identify him and put him in jail.

812
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: I'm curious to find out if his DNA pops up

813
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: anywhere else in the country or just along this stretch.

814
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 3: Guys.

815
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: A tip line is toll free eight eight eight five

816
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: four zero eight four seven seven repeat one eight eight

817
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: eight five four zero eight four seven seven. We want

818
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: justice not only for Mamma five Rachel Morin, but for

819
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: her children that have now been split up. Their family

820
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: has been broken apart forever.

821
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: Goodbye friend,