1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Moore. I think probably out of 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: all the you know, the pantheon of the founders of 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: this country, I think probably my favorite of that collection 4 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: of men, it's probably been Franklin. I like Ben Franklin, 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: and this is why Ben Franklin lived a life that 6 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: was not a life of privilege. As a matter of fact, 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: he lived on the streets in the Northeast, like Boston 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: in the wintertime, and he, you know, drank life up 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: to the fullest, and he had a lot of ups 10 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: and downs. And being a death investigator, I'm always coming 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: across interesting little quotes. And there was a quote that 12 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: he had made and he may have written this in 13 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: Poor Richard's I think that's where it comes from. And 14 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: the quote that I'm interested in today is the one 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:20,639 Speaker 1: where Ben wrote, nine men in ten are suicides. And 16 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: you have to kind of pause on that just for 17 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: a moment and kind of meditate on it and think 18 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: about what he is saying there. I don't necessarily think 19 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: that Ben believed that every nine men that pass away 20 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: are suicides. However, this is what I think. He had 21 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: lived enough life, he had seen enough of the tragedy 22 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: in this world. I think what he meant was that 23 00:01:52,800 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: nine in ten men are potentially suicides of the world 24 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: around them, and sometimes you just don't have control. You 25 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: don't have control of the circumstances. Today, I want to 26 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: talk about a case that, just in and of itself 27 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: as a cold case, is certainly a tragedy, but it's 28 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: bookended by another tragedy. It's tragedy of a man who 29 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: sought justice for his daughter for over twenty years she 30 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: was a homicide victim, but at the end he wound 31 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: up taking his own life. Today we're going to talk 32 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: about the cold case of Jennifer Harris and also her father, 33 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: who recently passed away at his own hand, Jerry Harris. 34 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks Dave. As 35 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: anyone knows that it's familiar with me. I wrote my 36 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: memoir many years ago and talked very frankly about the 37 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: inner workings of my mind and the things that I 38 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: had borne witness to and the things that I'd seen. 39 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: And I've been in that dark space. I've been in 40 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: that place where I really thought that there was nothing 41 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: left to live for. And it's not a judgment on 42 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: anybody at all, because I've that's a set of circumstances 43 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: I think very broadly where I can say that I 44 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: have walked, I've walked in those shoes. But with this 45 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: particular case, Jerry Harris going to the Fannin County Sheriff's 46 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: Office in fan And, Texas and setting up in the 47 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: parking lot there and taking his own life recently, it's 48 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: really a very very sad tale that is super emphasized 49 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: by this idea of hopelessness when it comes to your 50 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: precious child that has been brutally murdered and there are 51 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: no answers. 52 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: There's a lot of questions about why Jerry Harris took 53 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: his own life and what was it symbolic doing it 54 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: at the Fannin County Sheriff's office in their parking lot 55 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: and Jerry Harris his daughter's cold case dating back twenty 56 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: two years now. I don't know the impact something like 57 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: that would have on you as a person. I have 58 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: to imagine that it's going to manifest itself in certain 59 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: physical ailments when you have something so devastating, and Jerry 60 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: Harris listed his own medical issues as a reason for 61 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: committing suicide in those three notes he addressed one too, 62 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 2: the sitting Sheriff, Mark Johnson. When Mark Johnson became sheriff 63 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: several years ago as part of his campaign, Jerry worked 64 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: with him on the campaign because he said, I'm going 65 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: to solve the case. 66 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: This case. 67 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: No, I don't think he said I'm going to solve it. 68 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: I think he said, I am going to take a 69 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 2: closer look and open up the files on Jennifer Harris's 70 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: murder and see and try to solve that. That's going 71 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: to be day one priority. And so when Mark Johnson 72 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 2: was elected sheriff, his first day in the office, first day, 73 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: first thing, bring me the file of Jennifer Harris's death. 74 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 2: And it was that file being brought to him that 75 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: was exciting for Jerry Harris. My daughter's murder is going 76 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: to be solved now, That's what he's thinking. And then 77 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: utter disappointment and shocked when they opened up the file 78 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: and realized that many things were damaged from water getting 79 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: into this saved. But on top of that, Joe, not 80 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: only was stuff ruined, the file was not kept very well. 81 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 2: Evidence was They had to they got rid of evidence 82 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,679 Speaker 2: because it was not usable in the case anymore. Because 83 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: of how it had been taken care of. So there 84 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: were a lot of issues with this. Jerry Harris committing 85 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: suicide claims it had nothing to do with the cold 86 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 2: case death of his wife, of his daughter. I don't know, 87 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: and I'm not even you know, my goodness, Joe. All 88 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 2: I can think, Joe is if if it was me. 89 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: I don't know that you come back from this. I 90 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: know you can have a life, you can laugh again, 91 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: you can smile again, but it's never the same. 92 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 3: It can't be. 93 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And as I learned early on, I used to 94 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: as a young death investigator, I would talk about day 95 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: when I talk to families, when I notify them and 96 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. I would always use that 97 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: kind of fallback phrase where I would say, I understand 98 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: your pain. And that is the most disingenuous thing to 99 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: say to anyone that's under it, because no, you don't. 100 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: And even if you've had something like this happen in 101 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: your life, it still doesn't marry up or measure up 102 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: to the acute pain that a family member is having. 103 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: It that there's no way you can identify. Well, you 104 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: might say that you can, but with their particular set 105 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: of circumstances, and how much more so for this man 106 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: that has been struggling along for load these many years 107 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: and he essentially has no answers whatsoever. There's no way 108 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: that any of us could identify with this man and 109 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: talk about a gut punch when you know you're you're 110 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: right on the cusp of maybe a refresh here, okay, 111 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: where you think that everything is going to be open 112 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: to new and you get in there and water damage 113 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about flood leaking water, that sort of thing. 114 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: Getting into what they're describing as a pod where they're 115 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: keeping evidence stored in all of this, and it's not 116 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: just a handwritten files. There were actually, and this is 117 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: the way it's kind of phrased, there were actually items 118 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: contained in there that were suspected suspected of being his 119 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: child's clothing. And I say suspected because you know, when 120 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: her remains were found, Dave. 121 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 3: She was nude. 122 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: She was nude, and so that one thing that you're 123 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: trying to hold onto maybe there's physical evidence there because 124 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: you know that that bodies, they don't lose their clothing 125 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: in the water, which she's found in a body of water. 126 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: The clothing generally stays on the body. And to say that, 127 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: you know that one thing that might tie back, say, 128 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: if somebody had undressed her, it's gone, man, it's gone forever. 129 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 3: We know. 130 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: The case of Jennifer Harris began at a different time. 131 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: It's so in two thousand and two, I thought we 132 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: were fairly advanced, Okay, I did I remember at that 133 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 2: time of where we were. And even looking back at 134 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: that time now I tend to think, oh, we had 135 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: plenty of DNA and. 136 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. 137 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: Comparing two thousand and two technology in twenty twenty four, 138 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: it's like it's almost like the Stone Age. Really, it's 139 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 2: like Fred Flenstone running is, you know, using his feet 140 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 2: to motor of the car versus the tesla. And anyway, 141 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 2: the case of Jennifer Harris is a simple one. 142 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: To give you the. 143 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: Overall picture, already told you it's a cold case. Jennifer 144 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: Harris went missing. She was with a friend, gets in 145 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: her car, her green Jeep, to drive home or actually 146 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: to go somewhere. Didn't really say where she was going 147 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: for her kind of left that hanging. Not an unusual 148 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: thing for a twenty eight year old person. And she 149 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 2: she was pregnant at the time. Jennifer Harris was now 150 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 2: she didn't broadcast that out to all humanity. A couple 151 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: of very close friends knew, and she was going somewhere. 152 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: Her car was found on the side of the road. 153 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: And the term abandoned always gives me a bigger idea 154 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: of a car than just the car was parked on 155 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 2: the side of the road. You know, I've parked my 156 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: car on the side of the road to go for 157 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: a walk in the mountains. I wasn't abandoning it. I 158 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: parked it. In this case, I don't know if she 159 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: parked her car and went for a walk and didn't 160 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: make sense to do it at night, but she parked 161 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: her car is found. Her green jeep found on the road, 162 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: and she's nowhere to be found. She was missing for 163 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 2: six days. And by the way, I just want to 164 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: little tidbit. When her jeep was spotted, it was by 165 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: somebody walking in their dog. Somebody very familiar with the area, 166 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: walked the dog in that area all the time, sees 167 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 2: the green jeep and kind of looks around, you know, 168 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: her and her dog. But look, people park their car 169 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: for any number of reasons. It was the next day, 170 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 2: the day two of the green jeep being on the 171 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: side of the road where the woman went, Okay, this 172 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: is not right, something's wrong, calls police. Hey, I've got 173 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: this abandoned car out here. You might want to take 174 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 2: a look at it. And that's when the search for 175 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: Jennifer Harris began. Was the abandoned car. Six days later, 176 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: fishermen find her body floating in a creek red River, 177 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: and her uterus was removed. There were other body parts, 178 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: and we'll get into this in a minute that were 179 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 2: also removed, but that's the case. Six days missing, her 180 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: body is found nude in the red River where their 181 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: years removed and they have not they being law enforcement, 182 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: has yet to solve this case. We're not dealing with 183 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: a big area fan in Texas. Fanning County, Texas is 184 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 2: near the Oklahoma border. You'll have to get it, well, no, 185 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: meet you might not. I had to get out a 186 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: map or a Google search whatever. Yeah, because in Texas 187 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: is so large. 188 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: Yeah it is, and it's hard for many of us 189 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: to kind of envision. And when people say in Texas, yeah, 190 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: it's just right down the road, well, yeah, right down 191 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: the road in Texas is it ain't right down the road, say, 192 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: for instance, in Connecticut. Yeah, right, because it's nothing. You know, 193 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: if you hop in a car and you drive one 194 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty miles, that's right down the road, right, 195 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's not necessarily it's all relative to where 196 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: you are, but it is in kind of the the 197 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: northern I think they refer to it in the Dallas 198 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: area as the Dallas Metroplex, right, it's the term. It's yeah, yeah, 199 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: it's it's north of the city. But you know, once 200 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: you get outside of that densely populated area around Dallas 201 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: for Worth, you run into scrubbrush and prairie land, and 202 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: you know, you when you get out, you get out, dude, 203 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: you know you're you're out there. And but you know 204 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: she's from this area. I think her hometown's actually Bottom Bottom, Texas, 205 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: and you have you have this area out there that 206 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's always interesting when you because this is 207 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: like a very it's not a big road that she's on. 208 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: It's not like the the the jeep was found abandoned 209 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: on the side of like you know, I don't know 210 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: what runs through Dallas I twenty or something like that. 211 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: We're talking about kind of one of these county state 212 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: kind of roads that's out there, and where are you 213 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: going to go? Are there houses around there? Did the 214 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: jeep break down? 215 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 3: Uh? 216 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 1: You know, was there some kind of problem? What? What 217 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: did the interior of the jeep look like? Is there 218 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: any ants that something had occurred within that? What would 219 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: compel her to pull over on side of the road 220 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 1: at that particular spot? And then where is she? You know, 221 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: for those many days afterwards, they had no idea. And 222 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: it always amazes me, it seems like consistently every time. 223 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you the little boy and me, 224 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: I was always kind of a cowboy at heart. I 225 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: used to love being, you know, pretending to be a cowboy. 226 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: Every search that ever occurs in Texas, it seems like 227 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: involves horses, and so, you know, you've got people that 228 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: are saddled up and they're riding through the brush and 229 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: they're looking and all those sorts of things. But it's 230 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: not somebody on horseback that actually finds her remains. It's 231 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: somebody that's out fishing in the Red River. And that 232 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: doubles the problem here, Dave, because her body is without 233 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: clothing when she's found. She's in this river that swiftly moves. 234 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: I always take exception to people they talk about the 235 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: slow rolling Mississippi River or like the Red River, you know, 236 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: which the Red River eventually does feed into the Mississippi 237 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: back down in Louisiana. It ain't slow moving. You get on, 238 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: you get above this thing. And the speed with which 239 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: this thing moves is problematic for you as an investigator, 240 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: because it's not like being in a lake. You have 241 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: to think about, well, where could her body have gone in? 242 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: Who would have had access to a location, maybe a 243 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: boat ramp or a bridge. Who's going to take the 244 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: risk of taking someone's remains and then toss them over 245 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: the side of the bridge. And if what we believe 246 00:15:52,800 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: happened actually happened, he had gone somewhere else prior to 247 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: being deposited in that river. She left that jeep, probably 248 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: with somebody else, maybe somebody she trusted, that got her 249 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: into a car, took her away, killed her, and then 250 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: did a post wartem dissection on her body. Reflecting back 251 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: to one of the chapters in my memoir had to 252 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: do with rain and all those years ago I talked 253 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: about how investigators hate rain. They hate water because it 254 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: destroys things, it's the great eradicator most of the time 255 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: from an evidentiary standpoint, and I think that that water 256 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: symbolic as well. You know the trials that we go 257 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: through in life. It's like a rock that is always 258 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: getting pounded by water. Maybe out on the West coast 259 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: somewhere you don't see it changing, but it is changing. 260 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: Water changes everything. In this case, we've got a body 261 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: that's found floating in the Red River, and we've also 262 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: got evidence involved in this case, including documents that have 263 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: been subjected to a ton of water. Water plays a 264 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: big role in this case, Dave, and I can't imagine, well, yeah, 265 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: I can kind of imagine the disappointment that the investigators 266 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: had when they remove Jennifer's body from the Red River 267 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: and thinking about, Lord, what are we going to do now, 268 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: because I'm going to tell you she was heading down 269 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: the road. Relative to decomposition here. 270 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: I wasn't shocked at that, But when I saw this case, 271 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: my first thought was curious as to how much decomposition 272 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: and what that actually tells, because oftentimes when we have 273 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: a story where somebody is discovered in this case, six 274 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 2: days after she goes missing, I tend to wonder well, 275 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: when was she killed? You know, it's not like they 276 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: got her out of the jeep, killed her right there 277 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 2: and threw her in the river. Was there something else 278 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 2: taking place? And based on the fact that we have 279 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 2: been told her uterus was removed, I'm thinking that something 280 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 2: might have gone on for a couple of days before 281 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 2: she was thrown in the river. Possibly to give an 282 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: idea of where her body was found in the Red River, 283 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: it was about two miles down river from a bridge 284 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 2: crossing over Highway seventy eight. 285 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 3: I say that because how else. 286 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: Does a body get in the river other than dragging 287 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: the body down and putting it in, And which is reality? 288 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 2: I don't I don't discount that they could have the 289 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: person you know, could have just taken or people could 290 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: have done this. We actually know that when her body 291 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: was found, that her uterus had been removed and creatures 292 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: had done damage. And I'm wondering, Joe, because I don't 293 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 2: know for real covering cases like this for a long time. 294 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 2: I know that certain predator animals go for soft tissue 295 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: or you know, red balls and things like that, right, 296 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: and so how does that affect your ability to determine 297 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 2: how she died? Just the fact that her uterus is missing. 298 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: That does not say that she wasn't alive strapped down 299 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: on the table while they cut that out. I mean 300 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 2: she had I'm assuming hoping she was murdered first before 301 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: they did the removal of the uterus. 302 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to h scientifically, you have to be 303 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: able to compartmentalize a lot of when you're doing an 304 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: assessment on a body, you have to compartmentalize, obviously, and 305 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, having we dave on bodybags. 306 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: We've got anti mortem, perry mortem, and postmodem, all of 307 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: those things. You don't get into those the broader meaning 308 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: of what this means necessarily. Okay, you have to detach 309 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: for real. I mean you you just have this as 310 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: a body. I'm studying it to determine what took place, 311 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: because I'm gonna guess if you thought about it in 312 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: terms of being a husband, father, grandfather, that you wouldn't 313 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: There'd be no way you could actually move forward with 314 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: your occupation. 315 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 3: It would have it would be very difficult. 316 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: You have to check your baggage at the door, okay, 317 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: because as soon as you come dragging yourself into the 318 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: midst of that's time, you need to quit. Okay, you 319 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: need to quit doing what you're doing. That's that's a 320 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: big sign that you have to throw up. So you 321 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: have to check any kind of emotional baggage that you have, 322 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: familial baggage. I'm not saying that it's not valid, but 323 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: what I am saying is you have a job to do, 324 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: and so when you're doing this assessment, it's you don't 325 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: have Like if I sat there on every single case 326 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: and thought, oh, this is somebody's child, I bet I 327 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: can imagine all the birthdays. You can't do that. You 328 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: cannot because you're doing a disservice to the dead. And 329 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: we are there to service the dead. We are, and 330 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: we service families too, but you know, we're trying to 331 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: tell their story. And so you have to compartmentalize with 332 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: your examination what you're looking for. Okay, I have to 333 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: go through a process of elimination relative to Okay, this 334 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: might be an anti mortem event. Now let's talk about 335 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: anti mortem with Jennifer. There are some who say, first off, 336 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: that her cause of death was related to homicidal violence. Well, 337 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, and I know all the cases that we've 338 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: covered with Nancy and these other things that we do 339 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: when they say that it lacks specificity, but there has 340 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: also been information that's come out that she had apparently 341 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: sustained anti mortem prior to death trauma to her neck, 342 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: which they have taken to imply that this is some 343 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: kind of asphixial event where either you know, somebody has 344 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: throttled her, you know, like wrapped their hands around her 345 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: neck and choked her to death, or maybe something else, 346 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: but that's anti mortem. So you look at that, you 347 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: assess it, and when you do the examination of the 348 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: what's referred to as the organs in the neck, you 349 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: want to see how deep this goes, and you begin 350 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: to look into strap muscles, all these areas. You want 351 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: to check the cartilage and you know what otherwise would 352 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: be you know, referred to as the windpipe if you will, 353 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: to see if it's fractured, because that does happen, and 354 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: of course you're going to check the hyoid. You want 355 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: to see to what extent can you measure the level 356 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: of trauma that she may have sustained in the pre 357 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: mortem state in the anti morton state, and also can 358 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: you appreciate any kind of defensive injuries. Is there any 359 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: evidence that she had been bound because you know, Dave, 360 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: you made an interesting point just a moment ago, and 361 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: this is so horrific. But when you begin to think 362 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: about the absence of the uterus, and they have admitted 363 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: that the uterus was absent, we don't think that she's 364 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: had a full on hysterectomy. She's told people, at least 365 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: her best friend, we know that she was pregnant, so 366 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: that can't be valid. So you begin to try to 367 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: think about, well, was she restrained, like tied to a 368 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 1: table and her uterus was removed. As horrific as that is, 369 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: that's something you have to take into consideration. You have 370 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: to check your emotions at the door when you do that. 371 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: So you're looking for that. You want to see if 372 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: there's in this area where her uterus was removed from you. 373 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: You're going to be looking for hemorrhage surrounding the incision 374 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: and also internally because if you got hemorrhage, that implies 375 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: that she was still in the land of living when 376 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: this happened. And back to being tied up, is she 377 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: because this is a very angry event. You know, I 378 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: could see somebody wanting to torture her. Was she bound? 379 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: Was she tied down. Can you see that on the wrist, 380 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: because if you know, if somebody's restrained, say by the wrist, 381 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: they're tied up, or ankles are tied, if they're fighting 382 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: against it, You're going to see hemorrhage in dwelling there. 383 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: You'll see abrasions in dwelling there, you know, just to 384 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: try to get free or struggling against the pain. How 385 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: much of that is diminished, you know, result of the 386 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: time being in the water. And then you go to 387 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: what you can verify as post mortem injuries. And this 388 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: is horrible to consider, but look, this is the reality. 389 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: This is the true reality of true crime, okay, and 390 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: what we. 391 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 3: Look for. 392 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: She's in an aquatic environment. Now, in this aquatic environment environment, 393 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: are we thinking that the water could change your body? Yes, 394 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: it could. You're going to get things like pretty severe 395 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: skin slippage, which means the top of the skin is 396 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: going to come off. It's kind of in that time 397 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: of year in Texas. Because this occurred in May mid 398 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: May of two thousand and two, the water would not 399 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: be obviously as hot as it is in July, so 400 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: the body would not have degraded as much, perhaps decompositionally 401 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: but they're saying she was decomposing. 402 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 2: What did that mean when they say that early on 403 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 2: like that, Yeah, really mentioned and my first thought was, well, 404 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: how much would you expect? 405 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of it. It's going to be deep. 406 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: And you have to understand what are they calling decomposition 407 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: as opposed to trauma, because we do know this. They 408 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: have stated pretty pretty plainly that there were there was 409 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: post mortem animal animal activity, aquatic animal and they're talking 410 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: about turtles, and turtles do do feast on human remains. 411 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: They're scavengers. That's one of the things that they do. 412 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: And I was reading this is said eyes, nose, ears. 413 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's things that yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely, the 414 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: softer areas they are going to go for. They'll also 415 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: go for fingers, anything that's kind of hanging down like that. 416 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: And you think about a body floating in water. I mean, 417 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: just think about this, and next time you go to 418 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: a pool or something like that and you're in the water, 419 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: can yourself just for a moment, you remember when we 420 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: were kids, we would do the dead man float. And 421 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: so if you do that in a classic position, your 422 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: feet are hanging down, your arms and fingertips are hanging down. 423 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: So from an evidentiary standpoint, we're talking about a young 424 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: lady that just been absolutely brutalized. Well, how do we 425 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: experience the world. We are tactile creatures. So what that 426 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: means is we touch things. We touch things from the 427 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: moment that we were born. We begin to experience the 428 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 1: world through our fingertips. Well, when it comes to crime, 429 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: if you're trying to defend yourself, let's just say that 430 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: you're missing your fingertips as a result of postmortum animal 431 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: activity or decomposition. You've lost a lot of evidence there, 432 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: fingernail scrapings. You can't get that any longer. It's all gone. 433 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: And not to mention the impact that the water is 434 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: having on the body in rape cases, for instance, if 435 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: you've got a nude body, which by the way, is 436 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: another important tell here Jennifer's remains, we're nude. That that 437 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: goes again to kind of a sexualization of the body. Right, 438 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: So are you thinking sexual assault here? Well, guess what 439 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: If you're talking about sexual assault, then that would mean 440 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: that the remains might hold hold evidence relative to that. 441 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: But guess what water destroys it? You know, if you 442 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: if you talk about the openings in the body. They're essentially, 443 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: I don't know the correct term, would not be flushed 444 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: in a classic sense, like a proactive flushing, you know, 445 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: where this is being attempted to be done, but it's 446 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: kind of a passive thing. The current of the of 447 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: the water, the swirling. You know, we had a case 448 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: not too long ago we talked about where a body 449 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: gets caught in an eddy. I think that case was 450 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: inten Exis, where she had been weighted down in the 451 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: water and the water the divers, remember in that case, 452 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: they were talking about how the body was swirling about 453 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: when they got to the body, and so that's that 454 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: kind of tumbling that happens in the water is destroying 455 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: evidence as well. So it's almost like a perfect storm 456 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: when you you know, you begin to consider this and 457 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: then everything you're having to marry up in your mind 458 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: once you get the body, Once you get the body 459 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: back to the more to do your exam day. Cases 460 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: do not conclude once a body is found, the body 461 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: of a missing person. That's that's not the conclusion. That 462 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: is merely the beginning. In any case. You can drone 463 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: on and on about you know, what may or may 464 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: not have happened all those sorts of things, and then 465 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: you get the body and you think that it's all 466 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: over with. Well, you're still just looking for answers at 467 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: that point in time and trying to unravel with the 468 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: dead or attempting to tell you through all the remains 469 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: of their bodies. And Dave, you know, we talked a 470 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: lot about water here, and we talked about the destructive 471 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: force of it. But the police, I think, and this 472 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: is kind of born out and how much time has elapsed. 473 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,239 Speaker 1: You think about this and you think, well, you know, 474 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: where do these roads lead? You know, how do you 475 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: go about getting answers? And I just don't know that 476 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of definitive material out there relative to 477 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: Jennersfir's passing. I know that, correct me if I'm wrong. 478 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: I think that there were two people that were questioned 479 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: in this case. 480 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: Joe they brought in. She was married to a guy 481 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: named Rob Holman. Previously they were divorced, but she had 482 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: an ongoing relationship with Holman. But she also had a 483 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: fella that she got involved with when she was learning 484 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: to be a messuse or therapeutic massage right right, Yeah, 485 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: It was kind of an interesting thing just to give 486 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: you the very quick one. She married Rob Holman. They 487 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: were from the general same area, northeast Texas. He liked 488 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 2: that small town feel. Jennifer when they moved to Dallas 489 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: so that she could get her education at therapeutic massage 490 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: and things like that, she had a big vision for 491 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 2: her life. She had big dreams at twenty eight, you know, 492 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 2: she had a plan. Her husband didn't. After being in 493 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: Dallas with her for a couple of years, he really 494 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: just wanted to go back home. I just want to 495 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: be back out in the country man, And she didn't. 496 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 2: While she was taking her classes in massage therapy, she 497 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: meets a fellow and I want to be as kind 498 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: about this as I possibly can. Okay, his name is 499 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: James Hamilton. I and Jennifer got involved in a romantic relationship. 500 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: They ended up going into business together, Jennifer and Hamilton, 501 00:31:59,000 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 2: James Hamilton. 502 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: They open up their own. 503 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: Massage place and they're moving forward with this whole thing 504 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: when the business pretty much goes bankrupt and they break 505 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 2: up romantically. Their business is falling apart. So there's a 506 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: lot going on there, but everything tells us they were 507 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: friends through it all. They had a rough relationship romantically 508 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: her ex husband, Rob Homan. He was a little different. 509 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: I told you that he moved to Dallas with her 510 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 2: to get her education. He didn't like it. He wanted 511 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: to go back home and he did. Fast forward to 512 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: the disappearance of Jennifer Harris. The night she goes missing, 513 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 2: we know that there was at least one, probably more 514 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: people that knew she was pregnant. Her uterus was removed 515 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: from her body. If she was pregnant, then you've got 516 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 2: a baby in there. Yes, And we have the police 517 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: bringing in the two guys that know are the best, Okay, 518 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 2: James Hamilton romantic relationship for and business partner. 519 00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 3: Amen. 520 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: He's a good suspect because a lot of issues here, 521 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: business and romantic, bankrupt financially, romantically. Anyway, he has an alibi, Joe. 522 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: For the time they believe she went missing, he has 523 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 2: an alibi. He was over an hour away at a 524 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 2: McDonald's with some people that saw him there. So and 525 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: he look, he talked to police without a lawyer. They asked, 526 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: would you take a polygraph? Absolutely? He said, Look, I 527 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: just want the best for Jennifer. We need to find her. 528 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: What can I do to help you? Eliminate me first 529 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: and then let's move let's find her. That was James 530 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: Hamilton's opinion. Rob Holman was a bit different. Joe, the 531 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: ex husband, well, he didn't have an alibi. His alibi 532 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 2: for the night in question was he got a twelve 533 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: pack of beer and he was going to go hang 534 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: out with some friends. But when they weren't home, he 535 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 2: just started riding around Fanning County, just riding the back roads, 536 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 2: drinking beer for five hours by himself. And during his interview, 537 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 2: this first interview, he was also without an attorney. He 538 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: was mirandized. But hey, man, he's answering questions. But it 539 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: was a very skill The person that did the interview 540 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 2: was skilled. They knew what they were doing. And when 541 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 2: I went back and was looking over the notes Joe, 542 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: I found out that the ex husband, Rob Holman, actually 543 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: made a few mistakes in his statement to police. At first, 544 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: he said he was driving around, never saw the green jeep, 545 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 2: Never saw a jeep that night while I was riding around, 546 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: never saw Jennifer. Later in the interview, I was like, 547 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: you know, maybe I did see a jeep. Maybe, Yeah, 548 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 2: I think I did see a jeep. Later on, yeah, 549 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: I saw the jeep and I saw Jennifer. So we've 550 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: got a lie. Never saw anything that night? Oh yeah, 551 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: I did. 552 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: Yep. 553 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 2: That's the biggest thing here. And by the way, when 554 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 2: they asked, hey, would you mind taking a polygraph? So 555 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 2: we again, same thing with Hamilton, We just want to 556 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 2: eliminate you so we can move forward. As soon as 557 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: he walks out of that first interview with police, he 558 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: calls an attorney and he stops talking with police and 559 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 2: doesn't take a polygraph. 560 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 3: So there you go. 561 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen, fifteen years after the fact, Mark Johnson 562 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 2: was elected sheriff. Jennifer's dad, Jerry, actually had been involved 563 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 2: in the campaign because Mark Johnson said, if you'd like 564 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: me to sheriff, I'm going to dig into this case 565 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: and I'm going to find out who did it. I'm 566 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: going to do my best to solve this case. And 567 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: he did first day out bring me the box. As 568 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: we told you earlier, he found out that there was 569 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 2: not much of a file in the case. What they 570 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 2: did have was damage. But he started there and he 571 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: announced two suspects, James Hamilton and Rob Homan. Those are 572 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: still the only two people that have been only talking. 573 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: Of Yeah, And I have to think, first off, wouldn't 574 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: it be fantastic to know how that jeep was handled? Yeah, 575 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: I want to know who's DNA would have been contained 576 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: within the cab of that jeep other than Jennifer's. 577 00:35:58,440 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 3: Wow. 578 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: Now, if she's you know, she's in a relationship with 579 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: this fellow that she was in massage school with, we'd 580 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: have an expectation that you could probably find something in 581 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: there related to him, all right, depended upon how recently 582 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: they had broken up and those sorts of things. But 583 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about the ex husband, I'd 584 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: just like to know, just for grins and giggles, I'd 585 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: like to know if if his DNA was found in there. 586 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how many folks have exes. 587 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 3: Would DNA last in that it would? 588 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: Well, it's dependent, right, It's depended upon the type the 589 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: type of DNA you're talking about, you know, and how 590 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 1: is it being conveyed. Are you talking about hair boy? 591 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: We've seen that played out in recent history, you know, 592 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: relative to find a mitochondrial DNA through you know, hair 593 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: shafts and that sort of thing. But if you're talking 594 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: about you know, I don't know, could it be blood. 595 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: Was there blood in the jeep? 596 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 2: Let's say that for the sake of argument, that I 597 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 2: was driving around Banning County around that same time and 598 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 2: I saw Jennifer walking with a Jerry can you know 599 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 2: the gas cant going down the road rand of gas. 600 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 2: And I pick her up and go get gas and 601 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 2: take her back to her jeep. And while we're there, 602 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 2: I sit down in My back's hurting. So I sit 603 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: down in her car for a minute, in the passenger side, 604 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 2: front seat whatever. And I'm only in there for a 605 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 2: couple of minutes. Yep, would I I know, I would 606 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 2: leave behind something. 607 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 3: How long would it? You know? 608 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you would, And it would be again depended upon 609 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: you know, what is, for lack of better term, what's 610 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,240 Speaker 1: emanating from your body? Are we talking about? Yes, sweat 611 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: that could? That could certainly if it's gotten in, if 612 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: it's gotten into the fabric of the vehicle where the 613 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: seats removed from the jeep, that was all that stuff retained. 614 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking about what turns out to be. 615 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what other homicide have happened in Fannin County, Texas, 616 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: but I got to tell you as far as the 617 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: level of brutality here. This is probably going to be 618 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: at the top of the list. If I had that vehicle, 619 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: that thing would be so secured and locked down and 620 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: everybody would be forbidden. You know, I want to know 621 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: where the jeep is. Was it passed on to the 622 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: family and then the family just let it go, which 623 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: happens many times because there's expenses incurred and all those 624 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: sorts of things. But I got to tell you in 625 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: a case like this, and we're not talking, you know, 626 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 1: let's think back to what we're saying here, Dave. We're 627 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: talking about the jeep that is owned by this young 628 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: woman who is later found six days later floating nude 629 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: in the river with her uterus removed. I'd say that 630 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: that jeep is the last point in contact from an 631 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 1: evidentiary standpoint. It might be other than the body, which again, 632 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: as we have stated previously, is greatly at this point 633 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: in time. That jeep is the hub of everything, you know, 634 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: because she was operating that jeep at one point in time, 635 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: probably right before she died, and anybody that would have 636 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: come in contact with her would have been at least 637 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: outside of the jeep. I don't know did they lean 638 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: on the jeep. Hey put their hand on the jeep 639 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: and say you're coming with me. Well, guess what, we're 640 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: not even talking about DNA there. We're talking about the basics, 641 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: like a latent handprint, palm print on the outside of 642 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: that jeep. What happened to the jeep? I'd like to 643 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: know that. I want to know what the status of 644 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 1: that thing is. Is that now in five million pieces 645 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: in junk yards all over Texas? Is somebody still riding 646 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: around in it? Or have they sequestered this thing somewhere? 647 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 3: But Joe, let me ask you very quickly. 648 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 2: The uterus being removed and the police find out that 649 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 2: she'd at least told at least one friend she was pregnant, 650 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 2: kind of indicative her uterus being removed at whoever did this? 651 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,959 Speaker 2: A didn't I just fall upon her on the side 652 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 2: of the road, because it's a very specific thing that 653 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 2: is removed. 654 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 3: It is very specific. 655 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know with privacy to do this, right, 656 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 2: Oh my god, now get on the side of the road. 657 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: No, no, And if you attempted to do it, you 658 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 1: would have to have a certain level, not a certain level, 659 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 1: you'd have to have a very specific level of privacy 660 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: and here's something else. You're going to have to have tools. 661 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: They're going to satisfy this task that you're attempting to achieve. 662 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: You have to have some knowledge. H And I guess 663 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: anybody could say, well, you know, anybody that's had a 664 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: biology class or has been through sex ed, do you 665 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: know what the uterus is for? Maybe so, but do 666 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,399 Speaker 1: you have the skill to know where to go and 667 00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: find the uterus? And another cold cold thought with as 668 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: if there's not enough here already, But another cold thought 669 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: of this is that if you're so intimately involved with 670 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: somebody where you understand that they are pregnant, and let's 671 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: say you kill them now, you're going to stand over 672 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: them with a sharp instrument that maybe you've never done 673 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: this before. You're going to go in there and you're 674 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: going to remove an organ from her body that's going 675 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: to tell everything. This is a very specific kind of 676 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: person that they would be looking for, somebody that is 677 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,479 Speaker 1: so you know, he didn't go after the heart, didn't 678 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 1: go after the lungs, he didn't go for a kidney. 679 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: He went for the uterus. And I say he, I'm 680 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: not saying a woman couldn't have done it, because we've 681 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: had some of these cases where women have taken babies 682 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: out of the womb and left the mother to die. Yeah, 683 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: that could be plausible, I suppose, but it's a very 684 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: specific person and you'd have to look at the level 685 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: of skill. This comes up a lot of time. It 686 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: came up in the black Dahlia case. It still comes 687 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: up today. What level of skill did and proficiency did 688 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: this individual have when it comes to doing a dissection? 689 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: And I think that's that's curious, sir, I an intriguing question. 690 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 2: There was a couple of things that you mentioned to 691 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 2: me when we were talking a minute ago about this 692 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 2: off air blue clay and a little cabin. Now we 693 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 2: know that Jennifer Harris had been with her friend earlier 694 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 2: in the evening when she went missing. She was driving 695 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 2: her green Jeep and it was left on the side 696 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 2: of the road and missing six days, body found floating 697 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: nude in the Red River. Uterus removed. Tell me about 698 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 2: blue clay and a burned down cabin. 699 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: According to what has been previously reported, there was blue clay. 700 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: And when I say clay, I'm talking about like clay, 701 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: like you know, you hear about the Red Clay Hills 702 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: of Georgia. Yeah, it's a particular type of clay that 703 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: has a blue tin and there's only I think they said, 704 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: like only three or four places where this there's a 705 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: deposition of this on the banks of the Red River. Well, Dave, 706 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: you know we talked about trace evidence. Guess what they 707 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: found blue clay on her body. And to really drive 708 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: home this, there was what they referred to as a 709 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: caretaker's cabin. Now what this thing took care of or 710 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: who occupied the space, I have no idea, but that 711 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: caretaker's cabin was immediately adjacent to one of these points 712 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: of entry where blue clay was. Okay, cabin burned down. 713 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: And remember how you had mentioned you mentioned just a 714 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: moment ago, you would have to have a place, and 715 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: I've seen the images from what remains. There's like a 716 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 1: concrete slab in the middle of the wooded area. Nobody's 717 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,800 Speaker 1: going to hear anything, nobody's going to see anything. You're there, 718 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: You show up with the instruments from maybe you're pre prepared, 719 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: maybe it's a place where you've picnicked before. Maybe it's abandoned, 720 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: and you know that you could remove somebody there and 721 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: do these things. And oh, by the way. The river 722 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: is right there, so after I'm done, I'm going to 723 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: deposit the body there. Here's a big question as well, 724 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: what'd you do with the uterus? Is it something that 725 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: you've kept or did it go in the river as well, 726 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: hoping that you know, the aquatic environment would take care 727 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: of it. It's a chilling, chilling thought, Dave. But I 728 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: got to tell you something that is absolutely heartbreaking. As 729 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: sad as this is for you and I my friend 730 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: to talk about Jennifer's death, we haven't had to live 731 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: with it, have we. Nope, twenty two years on, Jerry, 732 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:04,959 Speaker 1: her father, decided to end his life, and I think 733 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: this is one of the most poignant things. He wrote 734 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: three letters, Dave. You know we've three notes, and you 735 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,760 Speaker 1: know we talked about I've talked about before how people 736 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: I think people when you do suicide investigations, they believe 737 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: that everybody leaves a note. That is the exception. 738 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 3: I thought that until you told me that it wasn't 739 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 3: the norm. 740 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: It's really most people that do it just decide to 741 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: go and do it. Jerry wrote three and to show 742 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: you what kind of heart this man had, and this 743 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: is absolutely just horrible. He didn't want to inconvenience anybody, 744 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: So he went to the parking lot of the sheriff's 745 00:45:54,120 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: office and removed himself from this life. But he didn't 746 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: want to inconvenience anybody by causing a fuss at his 747 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: home or anywhere else. He thought that it would make 748 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: it easy for the sheriff. And then in one last act, 749 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: he states in the letter, You're not at fault for this. 750 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: This has nothing to do with the unsolved murder of 751 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: my daughter. I can't go on anymore. My health has 752 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:31,279 Speaker 1: gotten so bad. I submit to you that whoever is 753 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: out there that killed Jennifer, as far as this old 754 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,399 Speaker 1: death investigator is concerned, you have the blood of not 755 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:48,280 Speaker 1: just one person on your hand, you have the blood 756 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,800 Speaker 1: of two. At this point, whoever you are, I hold 757 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,919 Speaker 1: you responsible for the death of this man as well. 758 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scotten Morgan and this is bodybags