1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: This incredible. What's the last thing? Increase? It's a funny's 2 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: inspecting the image just being contained in the fluid exactly. 3 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: The treat's visual memory is located nothing it's brain, but 4 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: in the eye itself. Welcome to stuff to Blow your 5 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: Mind from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hey you welcome 6 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert 7 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Christian Seger. Hey, Robert, if you were murdered, 8 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: would you mind if I scooped your eyeball out, cut 9 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: it in half, dipped it in some chemicals, and then 10 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: looked at that to see if I could find the 11 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: image of your murderer on your eye. Only if you 12 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: had the professionals like the late great Christopher Lee and 13 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: Peter Cushing doing the investigating as they as they do 14 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: in this clip that we just heard from the nineteen 15 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,559 Speaker 1: seventy two horror film Horror Express. I have to confess 16 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: I've never seen this movie, So tell me and tell 17 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: the audience what is what's it about? Well? This is yeah, 18 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: this is the fun wild little film that uh it 19 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: is shockingly public domain property at the moment. You can 20 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: find it on on YouTube and and pretty much anywhere 21 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: that you're going to grab your your horror cinema. It's 22 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: a it has a shockingly star studded cast. You got 23 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing and not in our audio clip, 24 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: Telly savalis as a as a Cossack captain. Wow with 25 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: without any attempt at at a Russian act center anything, 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: just straight up tell Y savalas. So it's just Ko 27 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: Jack pretending like he's a Cossack captain on this train. Yeah, exactly. 28 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: And there is a oh god goodness that they're all 29 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: these additional character actors as well. There is a there's 30 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: a respute and sue character uh that's walking around. It 31 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: all takes place on a Trans Siberian Express from China 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: to Moscow, and it concerns this uh, this alien possessed, 33 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: reanimated prehistoric commented. They just starts running amuck, draining the 34 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: memories from its victims, leaving them with milky white eyes. 35 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: And there's this fabulous scene which we we just heard 36 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: the audio from where the scientists use a microscope on 37 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: the creature's eye fluid to reveal its final sites, as 38 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: well as a kind of hilarious glimpse at the prehistoric world. 39 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: But so that may sound totally ridiculous in the scheme 40 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: of this film, and and it did when I first 41 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 1: saw it. I first saw this, I think in college, 42 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: and I had no idea that it had any connection 43 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: to the rational world. I was like, what kind of 44 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: dove for these guys on when they wrote this, because 45 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: this is the most crazy pseudo scientific idea I've ever heard. 46 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: And it turns out that it is that actually over 47 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: two hundred year old theory that still floats around occasionally, 48 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: though we mainly just see it in our film nowadays. 49 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: But man, it connected to forensic science for almost a 50 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: century and to the criminal mind in terms of what 51 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: they needed to do to get away with their murderous crimes. Yeah, 52 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: and and of course as well get into the topic 53 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: will explore to what extent it was it was tied 54 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: to forensic science, It has a it has an interesting 55 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: history there. Essentially it is it is still a pseudoscience, um. 56 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: But you know, pseudoscience often enters our world where magic fails, 57 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: us seeming to make the impossible possible via the invocation 58 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: of actual scientific and technological marvels. And and so today 59 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: what we're discussing is is unmistakably necromantic. You know, it's 60 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: it's communicating with the dead, but it's wrapped up in 61 00:03:54,320 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: these nineteenth century technological advancements, and uh, it's extremely fascinating. 62 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: I can't believe it's taking me this long to finally 63 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: get to the the actual science behind this ridiculous movie. Yeah, 64 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: it's it's fun, but it's also utterly bizarre. What we're 65 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: talking about here is optography. There's a name for this 66 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: scientific practice. What we're gonna do is we're gonna give 67 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: you kind of a precursor to optography, and then discuss 68 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: the experiments surrounding it, and then how that led to 69 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: a lot of confusion of forensic science for a long time. Alright, 70 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: So in order to to understand how this false notion 71 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: could have gained any traction, we have to first look 72 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: at the scientific advancements that preceded it and made it 73 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,679 Speaker 1: seem possible even to serious researchers at the at the time. 74 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: As as we'll get into. Uh, but as always, you know, 75 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: a little bit of knowledge is always a dangerous thing. 76 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 1: So in eighteen thirty seven, French artist and physicist Louis 77 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: Daguerre invented the Dagara type. This is the first commercially 78 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: successful photographic process, and it used an iodine synthitized silverized 79 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: plate and mercury vapor to capture the image, and it 80 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: produced very detailed images. And while it took minutes of 81 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: exposure time, this was still swifter than previous photographic methods. Uh, 82 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: they couldn't be replicated. Um, and each Daguara type image 83 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: was a mirror image, but still it had just an 84 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: incredible cultural impact at the time, right, Yeah, I mean 85 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: we're still close enough I think in the like relative 86 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: scheme of history that some of us have seen Decara 87 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: types before. I have this book that's utterly macabre and 88 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: somewhat related to this, that's just Daguero types of dead 89 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: bodies from the nineteenth century because that was a thing 90 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: where people would photograph the dead before they were buried. 91 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: And uh, it's fascinating and there's like a cultural history within. 92 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: It's not just me being a weird secko looking at corpses. 93 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: But the Daguera types have a specific texture to them 94 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: that I don't think you see photographs today. Yeah, And 95 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: it's it's also just it's hard for us to put 96 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: ourselves and given just how how how photographs fill our 97 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: world and how a custom we are to the technology. 98 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: It's it's hard for us to imagine what it was 99 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: like to suddenly have this technology more readily available. Um. 100 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: But but when you looked at some of the commentary 101 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: from the time, you can really begin to to to 102 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: to zero in on it. Um. For instance, Oliver Wendell 103 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: Holmes called the aa Gara type quote the mirror with 104 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: a memory, which which I think is rather fitting. And 105 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: Edgar Allan Poe uh wrote about the invention in eighteen 106 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: forty and I want to read uh some quotes from 107 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: him because I think he's he summed up. They're just 108 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: the wonder and awe of this invention rather nicely. And 109 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: it's Halloween. So what Poe has to say, if we 110 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: examine a work of ordinary art by means of a 111 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: powerful microscope, all traces of resemblance to nature will disappear. 112 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: But the closest scrutiny of the photogenetic rawling discloses only 113 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: a more absolute truth, a more perfect identity of aspect 114 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: with the thing represented. The variations of shade, the gradiations 115 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: of both linear and aerial perspective are those of truth 116 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: itself and the supremeness of its perfection, the results of 117 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: the invention cannot even remotely be seen. But all experience 118 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: in matters of philosophical discovery teaches us that in such 119 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: a discovery, it is the unforeseen upon which we must 120 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: calculate most largely. It is a theorem almost demonstrated that 121 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: the consequences of any new scientific invention will at the 122 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: present day exceed by very much the wildest expectations of 123 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: the most imaginative. So I hear that Poe quote, and 124 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: it sounds to me like the advent of photography was 125 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: really changing how people thought about the world, right, Because 126 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: up until then, let's be honest, like our awareness of 127 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: the world is essentially from the self, because we're looking 128 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: out from ourselves to the world. Right. But with this photograph, 129 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: you can start perceiving the world through the eyes of 130 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, And that sounds uncanny, like a complete change, 131 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: And thought, Yeah, you don't have to depend on the 132 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: fallibility of memory, you don't have to depend on on 133 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: an artistic representation that is created by somebody. It's virtually 134 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: instant compared to two artistic techniques and uh, and has 135 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: just incredible detail. So it makes sense that people would 136 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: be just applying photography to everything, and and you know, 137 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: to your point about taking pictures of the dead to 138 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: commemorate them. Uh, it reminds me. For instance, you remember 139 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: when everybody was getting these um these picture frames that 140 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: would throw up multiple digital images. Yes, I got one 141 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: for my grandmother a couple of years ago. Yeah, because 142 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: all of our photos were digital and she didn't have 143 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: a computer, So we got her one of those. And 144 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: then my sister brother and I we just all like 145 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: uploaded like a hundred photos into the thing and sent 146 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: it to her for Christmas. Yeah. I mean they still 147 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: have them, I obviously, but I feel like for a 148 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: while there everybody had them. It was it was the thing. 149 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: And even at the time, I remember thinking, this is 150 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: this is gonna be a detail in a historic reenactment 151 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,599 Speaker 1: in the future. This is gonna this is a technology 152 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: that is going to quickly fade because it's a bit weird. 153 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: It's just not working in the way that a digital 154 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: image and a more traditional digital medium works, or as 155 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: a or or the way the physical uh photograph works 156 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: in a frame. Right, Yeah, yeah, it is. It is 157 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: a strange thing. I think you're right, that's going to 158 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: be one of those things that like period pieces fifty 159 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: years from now, well they'll they'll throw those weird digital 160 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: frames in. All right, So you had the degerotype. It 161 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: was new, technology was game changing, it was exciting and 162 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: uh and you had a lot of people already appropriating 163 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: all of this excitement to the pseudo to pseudoscientific and 164 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: mystical purposes. And we're not gonna get into all those 165 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: purposes today. But obviously this was the era of spirit photography. Um, 166 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, images of ectoplasm and ghosts and fair area's. 167 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: Uh So, anything we're talking about today that gets a 168 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: little uh mystical in nature is really nothing compared to 169 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: some of the other uses that were out there. Right, 170 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: But this led to how we study the eyeball right, 171 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: because there was this cultural idea that the function of 172 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: a camera was the same as the biological function of 173 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: an eye, whether that being a human being or a 174 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: rabbit or a rat. That's right. And you know, at 175 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: the same time, we were also making huge strides and 176 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: studying the eye itself. Uh. In in eighteen fifty we 177 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: saw the invention and and some argue this was just 178 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: an independent reinvention of the ophthalmaloscope by German physiologist and 179 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: physicist Herman von Helmholtz and the engage revolutionized ophthalmology and 180 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: that it allowed the doctors to see inside the fundness 181 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: of the eye. Okay, so this is like the thing 182 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: when I go to the optometrist every year and they 183 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: look at my eye with what feels to me like 184 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: it's like a microscope or something. But it's obviously a 185 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: lot more complicated than what Helmholtz was working with. So 186 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: you take these two technological advancements and in retrospect, it 187 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: seems inevitable that we would get to this realm of 188 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: optimology because we're learning more about the eye. We have 189 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: this fabulous news technology, and time and time again, we 190 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: can't help but think about the human experience in the 191 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: human body in terms of the technology we use. When 192 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: we've talked about memory on the show, we often talk 193 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: about how we we fall into this trap of thinking 194 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: about the eyes as video cameras and memory as like 195 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: the tape database, and when it's really nothing like that, 196 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: you know, aside from the most simplistic uses of that metaphor. Yeah, 197 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: it's actually interesting when you look at that period of 198 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: time during the Industrial Revolution, after this invention, right, there 199 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: is a lot of focus in sort of fantastic fiction 200 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: on the ideas of being able to do the things 201 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: that you do in industry better with the biology of 202 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: the human body, whether that's like moving faster or being stronger, 203 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: or having better eyesight, like all of those things, like 204 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: how can it uh increase the production? Right? And then 205 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: you start seeing investigations like this in science where it's like, oh, well, 206 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: maybe if we peek inside of here, we'll we'll get 207 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: some idea how to make it so everybody's got superhuman vision. 208 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: And yet it's still so hard to shake mystical interpretations 209 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: of vision. Uh. For instance, just consider that the long 210 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: outdated emission theory of vision. This is the idea that 211 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: you see with I beams, the idea that there's some 212 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: sort of force that comes out of my eye and 213 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: touches something that, you know, the the thing I'm trying 214 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: to see, and relates the information back to my eyes somehow. Uh. 215 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 1: This has long been abandoned, but according to the to 216 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: an American Psychologist article published in two thousand two, as 217 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: many as fifty percent of adults still bought the emission 218 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: theory rather than the correct intromission theory. Really. Yeah, I've 219 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: never even heard the emission theory outside of like comic books. 220 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: Well in the comic books is a great example because 221 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: it comes down to local Cyclops. The x Cyclops is 222 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: who I immediately think of. It gets into this idea 223 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: that without like really thinking about it and room and 224 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: even in many cases I think, just reminding yourself, oh yeah, 225 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: light is entering my eyes and that's how I see. 226 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: You end up thinking about reality and thinking about sight 227 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: in terms of Cyclops's laser vision. Right, something's coming out 228 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: blasting things. If someone staring at you, they're like peering 229 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: into you with some sort of a force. Yeah, yeah, 230 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: this is interesting. It says more I think about our 231 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: uncomfortableity with looking at a living being's eyes than it 232 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: does about what we think about how we see things, 233 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Alright, So, so far we 234 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: have the inherent mystical nature of sight or the experience 235 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: of sight. We have these new technological advancements up. Plus 236 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: you can throw in a little bit of experiential support 237 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: as well. If you stare at something for a long 238 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: time and then you gaze at a blank wall, what happens? Yeah, 239 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: you can still see an impression of that image. And 240 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: you may experience this too with computer screens and whatnot 241 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: as well. And to the point of what we're going 242 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: to discuss with optography, that effect is heightened if you 243 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: go from being in a dark place to a bright 244 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: place or vice versa. Yeah. And in eighteen fifty four, 245 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: English scientist Reverend William Scoresby UH connected this experiment where 246 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: you would stare in an object and then look at 247 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: the wall and then time the image to see how 248 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: long it lasted. Um. And that there was this uh 249 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: that the paper was on pictorial and photochromatic impressions of 250 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: the retina and of the human eye. Uh. And there's 251 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: this wonderful quote. This is from an eighteen fifty four 252 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: right up in the uh Antheneum. Upon removing the eyes 253 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: from the object, the author explained the early appearance of 254 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: the picture or image which had been thus impressed on 255 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: the retina, or as he expressed it, photographed upon the retina. 256 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: So we have the technology observable perks of human side 257 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: backed up in an experiment, and a general human history 258 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: of seeing the eyes as windows into the soul, as 259 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: well as observeration observational changes in the eyes of say 260 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: a fish, because how do you judge the freshness of 261 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: a fish? You look to its eyes. Right when they 262 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: start changing and getting cloudy, you know they've been dead longer. Right, Yeah, Okay, 263 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: so let's take a break, and when we get back, 264 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna take this step and we're gonna move forward 265 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: into the rise of optography. All right, we're back. So 266 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: optography seems to have begun in the mid seventeenth century actually, 267 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: or at least the rumors of something like it, when 268 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: a Jesuit friar called Christopher sheen Or observed a faint 269 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: image that was disappearing from the bare retina of a 270 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: dissected frog. So, like you were saying, just before a break, right, 271 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: we look at fish's eyes to see if they're starting 272 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: to decompose, essentially, and it seems like he was doing 273 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: something similar with a frog. But then he was like, wait, 274 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: I see a picture in this frog's eyes. This means something, 275 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: right now, Remember what we were talking about earlier with photography. 276 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: Photography wasn't really invented until the eighteen forties. This is 277 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: what gave rise though, to the idea that the animal 278 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: I worked like a camera. So, uh, Shiner's kind of 279 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: hypothesis of that there was an image left over in 280 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: the frog's eye seems to have connected with that become 281 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: somewhat of an urban legend. Then we get in eighteen 282 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: sixty three, there's an English photographer who takes a photograph 283 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: of an ox's eye right after the ox dies, and 284 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: he uses a microscope to search for any evidence of 285 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: the images left inside. This ox is retina. The photographer 286 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: claims that he could see the fleeting image of stones 287 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: arranged just like the slaughterhouse road that the ox was 288 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: facing just before it received a blow to the head 289 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: that killed it. Okay, so this helps spur this on 290 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: even further. It becomes a little bit more of a 291 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: so it's sort of just like a rumor, like, oh, 292 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: did you know, like the last thing you see before 293 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: you die is imprinted on your eyeball. Then it was 294 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: really studied for the first time by Franz Christian Bull 295 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: and in eighteen seventies six he discovered that there was 296 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: a pigment hiding in the back of the eye that 297 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: could bleach in light and then would recover in the dark, 298 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: and he called this visual purple. Now today we call 299 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: it rhodopson. I'll give you a little bit of a 300 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: lesson on rhodopsin, but but he's certainly worth noting in 301 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: all this that that that bull was the real deal. 302 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: Like this, This wasn't just a photographer who is making 303 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: some judgments based on the photographs that he take. In 304 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: this is a guy who who studied and made some 305 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: real achievements. Absolutely, so we now know today that rhodopson 306 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: is a pigment that contains sensory proteins and that converts 307 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: light into an electrical signal. This is a common pigment. 308 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: It's in a lot of organisms, from vertebrates to bacteria. 309 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: In fact, I was seeing all kinds of academic papers yesterday. 310 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: You're doing this research on how there's there's some potential animals, 311 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: like some octopi that may have rhodopsin in their skin 312 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: that allows them to quote see through their skin in 313 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: some ways. It's common, but it's also required for vision 314 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: in dim light, and it's located in the tightly packed 315 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: disks that make up the outer segment of the retina's 316 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: photo receptive rod cells. Basically, the way it works is 317 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: it sends an electrical signal along the optic nerve to 318 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: the visual cortex in the brain. The eye sensitivity is 319 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: dependent on how much rhodopsin is present, and part of 320 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: the visual process involves it being destroyed in this bleaching 321 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: process that I mentioned when it's exposed to light. Now 322 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: here's a weird thing. Mutations in the rhodopsin gene can 323 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: actually lead to night blindness. So this is where the 324 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: eye fails to adapt to darkness. So radoption is really 325 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: important for us being too in D and D terms 326 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: like low light vision right um. And it can be 327 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: affected by environmental factors, especially vitamin A deficiency. So if 328 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: your vitamin A is low, this can mess with your 329 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: adoption and how well you see at night. Now I 330 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: love despite Bowl's scientific pedigree. I love how his experiments 331 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: sounds so much like alchemy. I ran across a bit 332 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: from his writings as quoted in Optagrams and Criminology, Science 333 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: News Reporting and Fanciful Novels by Douglas J. Lanska, and 334 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: here's what both said. I simultaneously decapitated a dozen dark 335 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: adapted frogs and kept their heads dark in order to 336 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: examine their eyes consecutively at stated intervals. Yeah, man, that 337 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: is a common thing with optography, cutting animals heads off 338 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: and just keeping them around in the dark. Get ready 339 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: for it, because everybody does this, and they even do 340 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: it to a couple of people. Yeah, and it's the same, 341 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: it's it's it's lines up so well with accounts you 342 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: read about how to make a homunculous right exactly. So. Actually, 343 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: before bowl there's this report that in eighteen sixty eight, 344 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: a doctor in the German town of Vosquez presented pictures 345 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 1: that he made of the images from to murder victims eyes, 346 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: and a medical expert named August Gabriel Maxim Vernois was 347 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: asked to examine this concept and tested empirically. So he's 348 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: basically the outsider scientist comes to this town, he takes 349 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: a look. Was he do experiments on sixteen dogs and cats, 350 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: presumably cutting up their eyeballs in their heads. He finds 351 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: no pictures. He finds that this isn't true. This but 352 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: something's wrong here, right, Yeah. I think one of the 353 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: interesting things though, particularly about bowls experiments um, is that 354 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: that he was excited by the chemical process that seemed 355 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: to be taking place there because it was it was 356 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: rather like the silver nitrate in photograph plates. It was 357 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: like this chemical process that was a part of this 358 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: exciting technology. So again we can't help but see the 359 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: comparisons between the technology and the human experience. Yeah, and 360 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: I think that's the difference here, right, is that bull 361 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: was actually like working with the chemistry and biology, whereas 362 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: like whatever went on in this town of Vosquez, like 363 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: it was really just somebody taking pictures of murder victims 364 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: eyes and thinking they saw something there. Right, But this 365 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: all changes and in Germany. Germany seems to be the 366 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: center point for a lot of this. I wonder if 367 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: there's something specific to German culture that revolves around the 368 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: idea of being able to see an image on a 369 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: dead person's eyeball. Oh, I don't know, I mean to 370 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: I mean to a certain extent. I think just sort 371 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: of necromatic ideas about communicating with the dead or or 372 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 1: perhaps universal. Now on the chemistry side, though, of course, 373 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: you can look to the the huge achievements in chemistry 374 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: that were made in Germany, you know, around this time 375 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: and into the they Well, German listeners, if you've got 376 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: some insights into this, we'd love to hear from you. 377 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: But here comes Wilhelm Friederic Kuhn now Kun, was a 378 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: professor of physiology at the University of Heidelberg and he 379 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: studied rhodopson. He devised a process to fix the chemical 380 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: in the eyeball and then develop an image from it. 381 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: And these experiments grew out of his accidental observation of 382 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: the shape of a gas flame from his laboratory on 383 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: the retina of a frog. So Kun performs this famous experiment. 384 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: This is the one. Like any time you look at 385 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: optography articles or anything, this always comes up. This is 386 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: the most famous experiment. He takes an albino rabbit in 387 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: seven and he fastens this rabbit's head so that it's 388 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: forced to look at a barred window. Then he covers 389 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: its head for several minutes I think with like a 390 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: bag or something, uh, and this lets the rhodopson accumulate 391 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: in the rabbit's eyeballs. Then takes the bag or whatever 392 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: off of the rabbit's head, lets the eyeball be exposed 393 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: to light for three minutes, and then decapitates the rabbit. 394 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: He removes the rabbit's eyeball, cuts the eyeball open, and 395 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: takes the retina and lays it in a solution of alum. 396 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: Then he would bathe the eyeball afterward in sulfuric acid 397 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: and this would cement these images. The next day, the 398 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: image would then become printed and it would show a 399 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: clear pattern of this window that the rabbit was looking 400 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: at with its bars right before it died. So Kun 401 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: is actually the one who coins the term optography, and 402 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: he calls these images optographs. So we're looking at the 403 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: beginning of what is maybe going to be a science 404 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: but really doesn't end up panning out. And the reason 405 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: why is con himself really felt like this wasn't you know, 406 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: something that was reliable enough that you could use it 407 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: over and over again, right, So his experiments ultimately showed 408 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: that only simple, high contrast surroundings were able to produce 409 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: interpretable optograms, and that the retina, whatever it was, whether 410 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: it was from a frog or a human being or rabbit, 411 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: needs to be removed very quickly from the deceased. He 412 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: determined for rabbits the limitation you need to get it 413 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: out of their head between sixty and ninety minutes of death. 414 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: In oxen it was useless after one hour. Yeah, and 415 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: then one of the problems with it with human eyes 416 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: that I've seen pointed out is that human eyes are 417 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: arguably more like bird's eyes than mammalian eyed. This according 418 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: to author Simon Ings, author of A Natural History of Seeing, 419 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: the Art and Science of Vision. Um. Yeah, Coon's history 420 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: with this technology is rather interesting because on one side 421 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: there is just sort of the grizzly and very specific 422 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: nature of of the research. For instance, when he was 423 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: trying to figure out in a better way of fixing 424 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: the images, which again is akin to fixing bath in 425 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: the chemical the process of photo development. Uh, he eventually 426 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: realized that a retinal image would fade and vanish, you know, 427 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 1: due to just metabolic processes in the eye even a 428 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: short time after death. So in one experiment with with 429 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: a dog that had essentially been put under and then 430 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: put on artificial respiration respiration, and that dog he had 431 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: previously hooked up it's corona artery with an injection apparatus 432 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 1: so as to quote drive a rapid stream of warm 433 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: alumn solution into the head and into the eye. Okay, 434 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: so it sounds like here what he's looking to do 435 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: then is is basically limit the after effect right by 436 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: having the animals still living while he's injecting the chemical 437 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: fluid for the processing. Yeah, poor dog. Well yeah, I mean, hey, 438 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: but those rabbits, those rabbits didn't have it easy. Those rabbits. Yeah. No, 439 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to be those rabbits either, But at least, 440 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm assuming the decapitation was quick. I hope. Well, 441 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: he's in a hurry. I mean, he has to see. 442 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: This dog is like, you know, thankfully put under, But 443 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: it's got all the stuff running directly into its eyeball. 444 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: But but it does boil down. Just how difficult it 445 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: would be to use this uh in any way, for 446 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: especially for forensic purposes, because in order to pull it off, 447 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: he realized, you need a a a very simple, high 448 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: contrast target to look at anyway, so you know, like 449 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: window beams, et cetera, these things we've talked about. You 450 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: need a paralyzing agent or some other means of locking 451 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: the eyes on the target, and then the eye would 452 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: have to be rapidly removed and opened in darkness the 453 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: retina hardened and fixed, and even then the method often 454 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: failed because the pigment regenerated and obscured the image. Now, 455 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: while others out there in the world speculated on the 456 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: potential forensic applications here. Coon initially dismissed these possibilities. He 457 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: wanted no part of the quote various popular accounts to 458 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: which my name has been in the most unusual manner 459 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: attached still um. When presented with the opportunity, he gave 460 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: it a shot. Yeah, he couldn't pass it up. So 461 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: he actually retrieved the eyeball from a human being named 462 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: Earhard Gustav Reef. And this was a man who was 463 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: sentenced to death for drowning his two children. This is 464 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: eight we're talking about here. And this guy was killed 465 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: by guillotine, so his head was decapitated. Kon creates an 466 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: optagram in ten minutes, he like grabs his head the 467 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: minute falls off, scoops the eyeball out, and just immediately 468 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: begins his chemical process. Now, when the image came out, 469 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: Coon and other people who saw it, they were all like, oh, wait, 470 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: I see this, I see that. They but then nobody 471 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: could really agree what it was, and ultimately it was 472 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: decided this is too ambiguous. It didn't really so there 473 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: might have been an impression, but was it a useful 474 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: impression in any way shape or form. Wasn't an identifiable 475 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: pre impression doesn't seem to be especially in any way 476 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: that could be used to like, for instance, identify a 477 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: murder victims killer now. Coon later worked with American physician Dr. W. C. Ayers, 478 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: who have conducted a long series of experiments. We're talking 479 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: a thousand plus experiments, and he concluded that optography would 480 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: never have a place in forensics. Uh. This is a 481 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: quote here from that Douglas J. Lanscope piece I cited earlier, 482 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: And this is and the sources this into an anonymous 483 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: source that he quotes. He meaning airs believes it utterly 484 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: idle to look for the picture of a man's face 485 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: or of the surroundings on the retina of a person 486 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: who has met with sudden death, even amid the most 487 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: favorable circumstances. And you know it would it would remain 488 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: this way. There's no evidence of a human optography experiment 489 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: ever producing as as as clear an image as we 490 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: saw with those rabbit experiments. And and even then those 491 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: rabbit experiments, again, it just looks very abstract. It's like 492 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: three beams. If you're told that it's a window, then 493 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: you can say, okay, I can see where that would 494 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: be a window. Yeah, we actually have the photo here 495 00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: in our notes if if you want to look it up, 496 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure you could find it if you just google optography. 497 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it really it's a very simple, basic, 498 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: high contrast image. I doubt that you would be able 499 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: to even with a rabbit, uh, discern a person's face, right, 500 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: And that is the vast consensus from people who dealt 501 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: with the science. It was just refuted again and again 502 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: all the way up into the twentieth century. And yet 503 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: the idea didn't quite die out. Yeah, it's it still 504 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: hasn't panned out, and yet for some reason it's like 505 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: stuck in our cultural memory. Maybe it's because of the 506 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: pop cultural implications. But people just forged ahead and kept 507 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: trying and trying and trying. And at the same time 508 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: you had various individuals and pop culture writers or or 509 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: celebrities that were either playing with this idea or they 510 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: just outright talking about how photography had this link with 511 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: the supernatural. For instance, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the author 512 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: of Sherlock Holmes Stories and uh self self experiment or 513 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: of poisons, as we know from our recent Poisons episode. 514 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: Yet in nine three he gave a talk on spiritualism 515 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: in the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City. Uh. And 516 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: he made use of photography to make his point. Um. 517 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: And this was eight years after the attempted forensic use 518 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: of optography that we're discussing here. Uh. He he showed 519 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: off spirit photography as proof of the afterlife and it 520 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: was well received. And he's talking about photography as this 521 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: means of communicating with the dead, and in the spiritualist 522 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: enthusiasm of the day, people were still buying into it. 523 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: And this gets back into what we were talking about 524 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: in that Poisons episode. How Like most people associate those 525 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: Sherlock Home stories and Arthur Conan Doyle with being like 526 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: pretty firmly grounded in reality, right, But there's always this 527 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: like lingering kind of whiff of the occult in them. 528 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: And that was something that I think both you and 529 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: I were always attracted to by those stories. Right. And 530 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: it turns out it's because he like had one foot 531 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: in the occult a little bit. Yeah. And you know what, 532 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: at the same time, it's Um, it is important to 533 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: note that he wasn't being completely illogical in all of this. 534 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: He was applying a logic to it, like he's saying, yeah, 535 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: there's there's a there's an afterlife, there's there's a spirit world, 536 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: there's more to us than what we see, and here's 537 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: the evidence. Now, there's some some fallacies involved there, but 538 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't like a blind illogical um exercise for sa 539 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: and Doyle. Well, I think we are all owed an 540 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: episode of Benedict Cumber patches uh Sherlock Holmes where he's 541 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: hunting down ghosts. Yeah, yeah, I get into it. I 542 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: believe there was some sort of a TV series, and 543 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: I don't recall the name of it. I think it 544 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: maybe it had something like The Great Detective in the 545 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: in the title, but it was it was a fictionalized 546 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: account of Sacon and Doyle's interest in the super natural. Okay, 547 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: I've never heard of that. Yeah, it was a British series. 548 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that it went more than 549 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: a single series. Okay, cool, Well, now that we've got 550 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: the biggest fictional example out of the way, why don't 551 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: we take a break and the when we get back, 552 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: we're going to look at the forensic history of people 553 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: trying to use optagrams in actual criminal investigations. So all right, 554 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,959 Speaker 1: we discussed that Coon showed optography wasn't feasible, even he 555 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: himself came to this conclusion, but the idea still took hold, 556 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: and it still leapt into fiction. People continued to claim 557 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: that they were using the technique. There was a hope 558 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: that the technique would be allowed to determine a murder 559 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: victims assailant. And you see this across the century. You've 560 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: got a Jules Verne wrote a story about it there, 561 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: They've used it in Doctor Who a couple of times, 562 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: and there's an episode of that TV show Fringe that 563 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: they used optography and as well. It seems like a 564 00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: missed opportunity for the TV series Hannibal. Uh not, because 565 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: I can clearly imagine a scenario where the killer tries to, 566 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: uh to, to put his own image on the retina 567 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: of a murder victim and then he like makes a 568 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: specific meal with that eyeball like on the top of it, 569 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: like a child. Well, I would hope the episode ends 570 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: we have with Hannibal eating the killer's eyes. Yeah, well 571 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: that maybe if they get a fourth season, we'll see 572 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: that episode. By the way, if anyone out there wants 573 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: to check out the Kipling story, its title is at 574 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: the end of the passage and the Jewels Verne story 575 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: from nine two is the Kip Brothers. That's interesting. I 576 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: wonder if he named it after Kipling. I don't know. 577 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: I haven't read it, but perhaps some of you have, 578 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: and you can you can give us your thoughts. So 579 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: here's an example of where this was first starting to 580 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: be used by actual police. They in eighteen seventy seven 581 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: April police photographed the eye of a murdered man. They 582 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: were only partly aware of what optography involved, so they 583 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: had clearly heard about Coon's experiments, but they they were 584 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: just taking pictures of somebody's of a corpse's eyes. Uh. 585 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: And in fact, the investigators on the Jack the Ripper 586 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: case may have also considered the technique. There's a rumor, uh, 587 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: it's never been confirmed, but that the technique of optography 588 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: was carried out on Ripper victim Mary Jane Kelly in 589 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: eight Yeah. Apparently this comes from a memoir by Scotland 590 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: yard inspector Walter do And even in his account he 591 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: claimed he basically says that they took the photos but 592 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 1: they had no real hope that anything would come of it. 593 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: But you know, like you said, they kind of heard 594 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: that this was a thing, so why not get in 595 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: there and take some get the best camera over here, 596 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: take some shots of the eyes in case the boys 597 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: in the bat can do something with it. So they 598 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: were just they were desperate at that point because it 599 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: was I mean, they've never experienced anything like a serial 600 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: killer at all that point. So but but you see 601 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: the same scenario time and time again, where where the 602 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: inspectors don't really have any intimate knowledge of the science 603 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: that's an evolved here. They just have this general idea 604 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: that technology can make use of the image of an 605 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: individual's eye to see what they saw before death, and 606 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: therefore go ahead and take the photos justin case, just 607 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: to be on the safe side. Well, the next example 608 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: that I found of this came from a German newspaper 609 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: article that reports an optography attempt in the nine trial 610 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: of Fritz A. Gerstein. And this is for the murder 611 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: of his wife and seven other people. So again we've 612 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: got like pretty you know, elaborate case of murder here. Uh. 613 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: The corner in this case claimed that he saw images 614 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: of the killer holding a hatchet axe in the eyes 615 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 1: of not one but two of the victims. So Angerstein 616 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: was convicted and executed partly due to this optographic evidence. 617 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: It wasn't even and I'm saying evidence with quotes surround it, like, 618 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: they didn't take pictures, they didn't do the whole coon 619 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 1: thing where they cut the eyeball up and they soaked 620 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: it and fluid, none of that. This guy just went, yeah, 621 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: I saw an ax in those people's eyes, and that 622 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: was admitted as evidence. Yeah, Lanska talked a little bit 623 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: about this in his his ride up and Yeah, essentially 624 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: it was just a case of the police rolling up 625 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: a suspect by telling him, look, we grabbed the image 626 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: of you, you know, wielding the murder weapon from the 627 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: dead gardener's eyes, and and there probably wasn't even a photo, 628 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: but the police only needed the threat of it to 629 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: force a confession out of a man who was willing 630 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: to believe that such things were possible. So this totally 631 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: renewed the interest and the supposed credibility and using it 632 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: for forensic investigation. Now on the other side of the Atlantic, 633 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen fourteen, a headline from the Washington Times reports 634 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: that an image was taken from a murder victims retina 635 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: that might show who her killer was, and that this 636 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: victim was twenty year old Teresa Hollander in Illinois. Now, 637 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: the police had hoped that the face of her murderer 638 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: was imprinted like a photo negative on her retina's but 639 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: the technique never revealed anything in the case, and it 640 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: was used to accuse Hollander's former boyfriend, Anthony Petris of 641 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: the crime. However, he was tried twice for this crime 642 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: and he was never found guilty, so it was not 643 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: successfully used there. And again, I just want to reiterate this, 644 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: like we're talking about these examples and we're saying, oh, 645 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: this is so ridiculous, can you believe it? It sounds 646 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: silly and unbelievable to us today, But in the nineteenth 647 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: century and obviously early twenty century here people were fascinated 648 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: by the developments between biology and photography and the fact 649 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: that they just they could not get out of their 650 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: heads that they thought, oh, the human eye and a 651 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: camera the same thing essentially, right, So surely we can 652 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: just do what we do with a camera to the 653 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: human eye and figure out who these killers are. So 654 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: that brings us to the nineteen seven murder case of 655 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: police officer George William Gutteridge. And this is in the UK. 656 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: The perpetrators who killed Officer Gutteridge believed in optagrams, and 657 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 1: so they shot him through the eyes after killing him 658 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: to destroy the evidence. Ah, so this is just the 659 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: kind of the reverse of the whole take photos of 660 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: the eyes just in case, shoot out the eyes just 661 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: in case, exactly. So this goes all the way up 662 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: until nine we've got We're back in Heidelberg, Germany. This 663 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 1: is where Coon did his research, and the Heidelberg police 664 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: department in town are like, you know what, we might 665 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 1: want to revisit this. Let's one more crack at. It's 666 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: been a century, but let's take a look. So they 667 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: invite physiologists Evangelos Alexandridas to reevaluate Coon's experiments. So he 668 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: comes up there, he performs similar rabbit experiments. He places 669 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: them in front of paintings and images, he cuts their 670 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,760 Speaker 1: heads off or takes their eyeballs out, all of this stuff. 671 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: This seems like it's the last serious optography research that 672 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: has has been performed, or at least reported to be performed. 673 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: But he again found owned nothing particularly valuable there. And 674 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: that should be enough, because the whole history of optography 675 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: entailed experts refuting it time and time again. So you know, 676 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: someone would get it in their mind that hey, we 677 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: should we can look at the eyes of this murder victim, 678 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: right and see what happened, And then the experts would say, no, 679 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: actually you can't. There's even even if we had the 680 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: most pristine environment, you had total control over it, like 681 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: even before the individual's death, which is totally unrealistic. Even 682 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: if if conditions were perfect, it would probably be useless. Yeah, 683 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to be sympathetic and imagine not a science 684 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: fiction possibility, but something that seems within the realm of 685 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: the empirical where clearly raddoption does have the ability to 686 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: retain an image for a certain amount of time. Yeah, 687 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: there's no doubting that that there is an image there 688 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: that that that that that for instance, the crossbars and 689 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: lines that we have from the rabbit's eyes, those are 690 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: the effects of the the eyeball looking at the window 691 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: and taking in this this contrast. Yeah. So I'm just 692 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: trying to like, potentially somebody's gonna come along another ten years, 693 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 1: twenty years and say, well, I don't know, like, let's 694 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: let's try that thing. Where we pump a fluids directly 695 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: into the eyeball of a dog again or something, or 696 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: or maybe they'll they'll take a corpse and they'll try 697 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: to like uh, reverse engineer the re adopts in process 698 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: on it, and it seems like something that might work. 699 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: It seems like they're onto something right, but it's just 700 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: not quite there. Well, the interesting thing about all this 701 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: is that, you know I mentioned earlier that book in 702 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: Natural History of Seeing, the Art and Science of Vision 703 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: by Simon Inings. Yeah, well I ran across an interview 704 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: with him for PRX Media, and and in it um 705 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: he he suspects that modern brain scanning technology could wind 706 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: some of us up in some of us up in 707 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: very similar territory years from now, when we've learned more 708 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: about what the evidence actually is compared to all the 709 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: things we're taking away from it right now. And he 710 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: specifically suspects that this will be the case with the 711 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: first time a suspect is placed in a brain scanner 712 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 1: to see if they remember a crime. So I think 713 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: that is probably that's probably the best way to try 714 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: and put ourselves in the heads of people who are 715 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: studying this and even advocating it. And entertaining the idea 716 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: of its usefulness you know on up into basically modern 717 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: modern day is that you know, we're we're likely doing 718 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: some of the same missteps today with with some of 719 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: our brain scanning technology. You know, we we have this 720 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: amazing ability to look inside the brain and see what's happening. 721 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: And you know, there's not a day goes by that 722 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: there's not some cool study that's talking about what this 723 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: may reveal about cognition and UH and memory. But are 724 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,240 Speaker 1: are all of those connections legitimate and uh and where 725 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: do we start uh misapply rying the technology to forensics. 726 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: So it sounds here like rather than looking at the rhodoption, 727 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: rather than looking at the chemical itself interacting with light 728 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: and turning it into electricity, that maybe the idea here 729 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: is that if we can look at that electrical signal somehow, 730 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: if we can get ahold of that somehow from the brain, 731 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,399 Speaker 1: then that might be a possible way to make optography 732 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: come to life. Unintended, I mean, I guess optography comes 733 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,439 Speaker 1: to life in the future if you have a sort 734 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 1: of black mirror scenario where you have some sort of 735 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: computer brain interface. Right then, as is often the case 736 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: with with with technology, it makes the magic possible. Something 737 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: that was previously pure necromancy or or or you know, 738 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,720 Speaker 1: scientific reality that could not really be inflated to equal 739 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: the magic. Suddenly it's possible because of some sort of 740 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, technological grain that's been implanted in the in 741 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,800 Speaker 1: the in the head. Well, listeners, what do you think 742 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: do you think that there's some value to of, you know, 743 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 1: continuing experiments like this on the eyeball, whether it's with 744 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: human beings or other animals, or do you think that 745 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 1: maybe we're onto something here talking about potential brain computer interfaces. 746 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: Will we ever be able to see what the last 747 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: image was on a dead person's by right us on 748 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: social media if you've got an answer. We're on Twitter, 749 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: we're on Facebook, we're on tumbler, and we're on Instagram, 750 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: and hey, maybe even send us pictures of what your 751 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: eyeballs are seeing. That's right, Uh yeah, don't forget to 752 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,399 Speaker 1: check out the the mother ship. That's stuff to bluing 753 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com and you can email us all 754 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: of your inquiries, all of your questions at blow the 755 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: Mind at how stuff works dot com for more on 756 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works. 757 00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: Dot com