1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: My name is Michael Shore. I was a writer for 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: the first four point two seasons and a producer on 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: The Office. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of 4 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: The Office Deep Dive. I am your host Brian Baumgartner. 5 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Today I am thrilled to present to you or introduced 6 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: to you, Mr Mike Sure. Mike was one of the 7 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: original writers that was hired by Greg Daniels for the Office, 8 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: and as some of you may know, Mike has had 9 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: an incredible career since then. At the beginning of season five, 10 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: Mike left to create Parks and Wreck with Greg, and 11 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: then after that he went on to create and produce 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: some of the greatest comedies of the last decade, like Brooklyn, 13 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: Master of None and The Good Place with one of 14 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: my favorites, Ted Danson. And although that is very impressive, 15 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: by far, his greatest singular professional achievement was his portrayal 16 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: of Mose Shrewd. That's right, Mike played Mose. Now Mos 17 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 1: did not, as we all know, have a lot to say, 18 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: but Mike, Mike is one of the best talkers that 19 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: I know. He is an amazing storyteller. It's like his 20 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: entire brain, it just it just thinks in stories. I 21 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: don't know how else to put it. He is a genius, 22 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: and he is a genius. But truly, I could listen 23 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: to Mike all day. I know that you're going to 24 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: feel the same way. Plus, this episode is the beginning 25 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: of another mini deep dive into the writer's Room, which 26 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: you will hear much more about next week. When I 27 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: talked to Greg Daniels, So pull up a chair, put 28 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: up your feet unless you're driving, and enjoy my conversation 29 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: with Mike Schure, Bubble and Squeak. I love it Bubble 30 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cooking at every month, 31 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: left over from the night before. Um are we just starting? 32 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: Are they really just chatting? Yeah? I mean everything is 33 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: being recorded. Um uh, what were you doing before you 34 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: join the writing staff? I was at s n L 35 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: from oh four. My then girlfriend now wife had moved 36 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: out here in two thousand two and we were dating 37 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: long distance, and it was like, all right, well one 38 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: of us has to move and it made more sense 39 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: for me to leave SNL, where I had been for 40 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: six years and come out to l A. So I 41 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: told Lauren I was leaving sn L at the end 42 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: of the year, and had a year to kind of prepare, 43 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: wrote wrote spec scripts and came out here and had 44 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: meetings and everything, and had I had a million meetings, 45 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: and Gregg's was the most interesting by far, like for 46 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: so many reasons. First of all, because Greg's an interesting person, 47 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: and because I loved the British Office, and that that 48 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: meeting was like two two or two and a half hours. 49 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: Lee Eisenberg told me about he was going in to 50 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: meet and his agents said, just so you know, Greg 51 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: does really long meetings, and so Lee said, he left 52 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: and was like, that was a really long meeting. It 53 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: went well, but it was like, yeah, but he does 54 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: really long meetings. I was talking to Aubrey Plaza the 55 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: other day and she was reminding me of this thing 56 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: I've forgotten, which was so after season four, Greg and 57 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: I started developing Parks and Wreck together, and Alison Jones 58 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: called me and said, I just met with the weirdest 59 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: woman I've ever met with. She's like twenty three and 60 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: she's here from uc B and I I don't know 61 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: if there's a part for her, but you should meet her. 62 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: And when Allison Jones tells you to meet someone, you 63 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: you meet them immediately and so I was like, yeah, however, 64 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: come over right now. So she came over and I 65 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: went and told Greg who was We were at the 66 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: office offices, and I said this, Allison sending this actress 67 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: to meet us for the new show, and he was like, okay, great. 68 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: So Aubrey came over and I said, Hi, nice to 69 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: meet you. Greg. Daniel is going to join us in 70 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: a second, and she was like okay, cool. And we 71 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: talked for like fifteen or twenty minutes, and then Greg 72 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: came in and then like ten minutes of the meeting, 73 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: he just got up and left without saying a word, 74 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: and Aubrey looked around, like what's happening, and I just 75 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: I was used to it, so I just kept talking. 76 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: And then like half an hour later Greg came back 77 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: and just sat down with no explanation of where he 78 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: had gone, and then talked for another like fifteen minutes, 79 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: and then just without a word, in the middle of 80 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: a sentence, got up and left again. And it was like, 81 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: this is what happens with Daniels is meetings are not 82 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: normal meetings. Like one way or another, something weird is 83 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: going to happen. Someone was telling us about Alison Jones 84 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: about being in casting meeting at Ben Silverman's old bungalow. 85 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: They're all sitting around a conference table and they're talking 86 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: about casting for the pilot and suddenly Greg gets up 87 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: and jumps out the window and they all are like what. 88 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: And apparently Nancy Perkins in her like Boston outfit was 89 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: accent was like I've heard of producers wanting to jump 90 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: out and thankfully was on the first floor. But he uh, 91 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, he had left a sweater in his car, right, 92 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: and that was the most efficient way to get just 93 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: like he liked his terminator brain like analyzed the layout 94 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,799 Speaker 1: of the building. It was like, oh, the quickest route. Yeah, um, 95 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: so that was your That was the first time you've 96 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: met Greg? Yes, I I knew who he was obviously 97 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: and h but I never met him before the meeting, 98 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: And um, we had a shocking amount in common, like 99 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: we both we were we both into Harvard, wrote for 100 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: the Lampoon and both wrote a us an l met 101 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: our girlfriends and then later wives. There later when my 102 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: son was born he had red hair and Greg's son 103 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: has red hair. There was it was like it's a 104 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: very weird series of things. But um, yeah, I've never 105 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: met him before. Um, there was a moment um we 106 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: were in the old and those days the offices were 107 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: in down in Culver City, and there was a there 108 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: was a moment where we were deep in the weeds 109 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: on the episode that I think became Hot Girl, the 110 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: Amy Adams episode, and we were pitching and pitching and 111 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: pitching different ideas and whatever, and I was I had 112 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: a notebook and I was like jotting things down, and uh, 113 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: suddenly he said, Greg said, okay, well, let's hang on 114 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: for a second, Like what makes a good story, right, Um, 115 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: here's what you need for a good story. And he 116 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,239 Speaker 1: started talking about, you know, basic building blocks of storytelling, motivation, steaks, 117 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: twists and turns, escalation, stuff like that. And he was 118 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: sort of like almost just thinking out loud, right like 119 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: this is what so we can't break this story? Why 120 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: is that? But he was doing it in such a 121 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: sort of professorial and thorough way that I realized like, oh, 122 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: this is just a class. I'm in a class now. 123 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: And I remember turning the page in my notebook and 124 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: starting to take notes like I was in college, just 125 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: writing as fast as I could, like writing as if 126 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: he were a professor in a biochemistry class. This was 127 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: having subconsciously, you were no, No, No, I knew. I 128 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: saw what was happening, like this is this is the 129 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: theory of this world. And I just took notes for 130 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: like forty five minutes, like I was in college, and 131 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: this is not a joke. There are I still have them, 132 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: and I still go back and look at them, like 133 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: to this day. That's now, that was two thousand four, 134 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: that was probably August of two thousand four, and I 135 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: still there are still moments where I'm like, why doesn't 136 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: this makes end? And I'll go back and look at 137 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: what he wrote, what he said that day off the 138 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: top of his head, and oh, you're right, You're right, 139 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: that's what's missing. Um, like maybe a day later, No, 140 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, much earlier. And it's like the first day 141 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: of work, and you know, I went to pitching, pitching pitching, 142 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: and I said like, oh, I had an episode idea 143 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: where there's like a stray dog in the parking lot 144 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: and that the office kind of like adopts the dog 145 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: as like an office pet. And Greg, I've really excited, 146 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: and he was like, oh, oh, okay, I hadn't I 147 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: had a similar idea, had a similar idea. That's a 148 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: good sign. And he brought out a spiral notebook and 149 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: he flipped through it, flip flip flip, page after page 150 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: of like serial killer level writing, like margin to margin, 151 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: you know, things underlined and whatever, and he goes a 152 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: flip flop. Okay, yeah, here, just okay. So here was 153 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: my idea. So there's a three dog in the office 154 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: park and they adopted and then they all they're all 155 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: caring for it. And I thought that Dwight could have 156 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: this relationship to the dog, and my would be really 157 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: sad because his dog didn't seem to like him. And 158 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: then Jim and Pam would kind of take over care 159 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: of the dog and they would feed the dog, and 160 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: then at night there was a question of who would 161 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: take the dog home, and Pam would take it home 162 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: one night, and Jim would take it home another night, 163 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: and the dog would sort of become almost like a 164 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: surrogate domestic animal for Jim and Pam, and then Roy 165 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: would come in and Roy would bond with the dog, 166 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: and then the dog would go home. And he laid 167 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: out like an entire story from beginning to end, where 168 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: this plot device of a dog just related to every 169 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: single character in the office, and he got to the 170 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 1: end of his like eight minute long pitch and there 171 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: was a beat, and I remember going, well, yeah, I mean, 172 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: I feel like we should do your version. That's it 173 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: seems like you maybe thought this out. But the amazing 174 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: thing to me about stories like that, of which there 175 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: are many, is we never did that episode like that. 176 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: Like he had episode after episode broken out and thought 177 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: through just as background, just as like Grist for the 178 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: mill of like how he could understand breakdown at a 179 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: molecular level and understand the characters and their relationships. We 180 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: never did they We never even pitched that out. Like 181 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: he had so many ideas like that that never got used. 182 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: And when you sort of go back and analyze what 183 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: made the show work, to me, I always go back 184 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: to that, because it's like he knew everything about every 185 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: character before we started doing anything, and so as a result, 186 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: there was this incredible lived in field to that office, 187 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: this richness and this like this kind of layered feeling 188 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: of like these people have always been here and they've 189 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: had three dimensional lives before the cameras ever started rolling, 190 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: and that that's just such a rare thing. I mean, 191 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: usually you're scrambling like crazy right early going of a 192 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: show to try to figure out who everybody isn't Greg 193 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: already knew, yes, And it ties into why Kappus was 194 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: such a great choice for that too. So you have 195 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: that lived in quality and quapus with this genius idea 196 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: of having us do the thirty minutes of busy work. 197 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: We were all there, ready to go seven am, and 198 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: he's like, you guys, just start working, make phone calls, 199 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: pretend to hand each other documents, and I'm on the 200 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: adding machine and you know, just little moments. He essentially 201 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: eliminated the artificial membrane between this is reality and this 202 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: is fiction. He made it a fluid thing. And to 203 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: your credit and the other actors in the show, we 204 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: did a thing on that show for years where it 205 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: was like, even if you're in the deep background, you've 206 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: got to beat your desk and it's a pain, right. 207 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: It's like actors, you guys could have all been in 208 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: your trailers, like playing video games or calling your children 209 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: or whatever. But like the value of it feeling real 210 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: like that, I mean, these things are so delicate, right, 211 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: because like it's it's asking a tremendous amount of the 212 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: actors to sit at your desk for as long as 213 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: you did, and all of these things that you would 214 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: think of as sort of like a little theatery and 215 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: a little actory and a little kind of like we're 216 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: gonna be in character and we're going to kind of like, 217 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's a little embarrassing. It's a little like, 218 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: come on, what are we doing it? You know what 219 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: I mean. It's a little like, but if there's a 220 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: theory behind it, if it's not just like let's explore 221 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: the nature of drama or whatever, you see the benefit 222 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: of it. And the benefit of it was from the 223 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: minute they shot the first frame, it felt like everyone 224 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: was really working in that place. Nothing about it felt fake. 225 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: I mean down to the fact that, like the set 226 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: design was almost exactly the actual offices that the writers 227 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: worked in in Culver City, Like they just recreated that. 228 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: And so when we were writing in that first season, 229 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: Greg would say, like, go, everyone, spend like half an 230 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: hour and just like mill around the set. We later 231 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: recreated it, but like that was the set where we 232 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: were working, and so we would sit at different desks 233 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: and you would sort of go like, oh, like from 234 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: Pam's desk, she can't quite see Angela. That's interesting, like 235 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: and then you would say, like here's Creed and Creates 236 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: got his back to the door, so like he never 237 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: knows who's coming into He's always going to be surprised 238 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: anytime anyone goes whatever. These tiny observations that you think 239 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: of as like is this really anything, But then it 240 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: is because because the whole show was about these tiny 241 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: little observations and tiny moments, and when you've actually lived 242 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: inside them as an actor or writer, they become more 243 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: meaningful and you understand them at a deeper level. You know, 244 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: when we went to Scranton for the Office Festival that year, 245 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: whatever year that was, even then it was what was 246 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: the season was that for? I think that was for 247 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: the convention. Yeah, it was like season four. But even 248 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: then Greg was like everyone go out, fan out do research, 249 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: and Lee and Gene and I drove around with Jason Kestler, 250 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: a writer's assistant, and like took pictures and like broke 251 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: down the names of restaurants and there was a condo 252 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: development and I took a bunch of pictures and I 253 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: was like, I think this is Michael's condo. Was hadn't 254 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: been in season two, but I was like, this is 255 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: the condo development, and like, so I took different angles 256 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: of like what it looked like down the road and stuff, 257 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: and we handed them to Gallenberg and Michael Gallenberg as 258 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: the production designer, and like we were still that intent 259 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: at that point in like making sure we got it right, 260 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: even if it even if no one never if the 261 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: ideal is even if you've never been to Scranton and 262 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: you never go to Scranton, you should still feel like 263 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: you've been to Scranton. Like that's how that's how intense 264 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: it was. So the first season we make the first 265 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: season and other than the pilot, none of the stories 266 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: are related to the to the British show. But people 267 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: still are like, boo, we know we were right. This 268 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: was bad, bad idea, and they into this day you'll 269 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: find people who say, like they stuck to the British 270 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: scripts for the first season, which we didn't, but no 271 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: one remembers that. I remember the pilot was roughly the 272 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: British pilot. Yeah, I know, it's uh. I felt from 273 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,479 Speaker 1: the moment of diversity Day that what we were attempting 274 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: to do was something really special. Yeah, And I was like, man, 275 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: if people give this a chance. Yeah, I know. It's 276 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: so funny, right because like the history of television has 277 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: the same story repeated over and over and over again, 278 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: and that story is the pilot aired and it was 279 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: the lowest rated pilot in the history of LAHLA. It's 280 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: true of Seinfeld. Jerry Seinfeld has a letter has like 281 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: the ratings for the testing. I think Cheers was the 282 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: lowest rated pilot that NBC had ever aired to that point. 283 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: The office was like a disaster in the early going. 284 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: Another thing, by the way, another thing Greg did that 285 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: it's amazing that I don't know if he has ever 286 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: talked about. He told NBC when they tested the show. 287 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: He was like, this is going to test terribly and 288 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: you have to ignore it. He was like that it's 289 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: it's a mockumentary that people aren't used to it. It's 290 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: washed out color and fluorescent lighting. The boss is unlikable. 291 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: It's going to test terribly and you have to ignore it. 292 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: And then it tested terribly and they didn't quite ignore it, 293 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: but he had primed them to look at the results 294 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: in a different way. And it's very gutty thing to 295 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: do to pre tell the network that the thing they've 296 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: spent millions of dollars on is going to bomb? Well. 297 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: Kevin Riley told the story that there are rooms. There 298 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: are different rooms as they're being tested, and they go 299 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: in and they examine and it's like bad, we think 300 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: it's bad. We think bad bad. And he got to 301 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: the last room, which he said, we're all the interns 302 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: and assistance and they were like this is awesome. And 303 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: he was like, okay, okay, now we've got something here. 304 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: And he basically took the people who didn't really count, 305 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: but he was like, yeah, this is going to catch on. 306 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: And I don't know Kevin, if Kevin ever had this thought, 307 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: but my thought was always that we were not fairly 308 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: being represented because as my Space was happening, social media 309 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: was beginning to happen, and you were hearing about these 310 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: fanatical fans some of the online forums, and you realized 311 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: how many college kids were watching. Well, college kids don't 312 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: have Nielsen Box. They're not weighing in on the fact 313 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: that they're watching in their dorms or and so for me, 314 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: it was always like, yeah, but they got to know 315 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: that more people are consumed. I'm not sure they did well. 316 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's the thing is like, of course, 317 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: like that the rating systems are so much better now, 318 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: but they're still even now, they're crude and like in 319 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: two thousand four, forget it like that, you know, there 320 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: was no way for anyone to to know or to 321 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: judge how many people are actually watching anything. It was 322 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: a really rough measurement. And and just like it's some 323 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: so retroactively grateful that they didn't cancel the show because 324 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: it's clear. I mean, look now, just now, it's it's 325 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: like the most popular show on Netflix today. Um Lee 326 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: told me about there were a couple of exercises that 327 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: Greg would do in the writer's room, and he mentioned 328 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: to me about the He called it unlikely duos, basically 329 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: taking he would he wrote everyone's name down on cards, 330 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: and then he grabbed two at random and would send 331 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: us off and go go break some you know, uh 332 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: Stanley Creed stories, you know, go break some whatever. And yeah, 333 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: and we did that very frequently. He did that once 334 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: a week. I always thought there was a little bit 335 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: it would It seemed to be something he did when 336 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 1: he was getting annoyed by us and our generale confidence. 337 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: But also it didn't feel like busy work. It felt 338 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: like Oh, it's interesting, Like, yeah, right, what happens if 339 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: Creed and Stanley or in the story or whatever. Um Creed, 340 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: who was one inch away from just being written off 341 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: the show? I know, how did you decide who was 342 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: gonna be gone? Devon or Creed? So um my, this 343 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: is my memory of this, and Greg would remember maybe 344 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: more accurately. But we broke the episode where it was 345 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: Halloween someone was getting fired, right, and it was like, 346 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: all right, it's either Devon or Creed because those are 347 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: the two people that hadn't talked yet. And the original 348 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: idea was it was Creed. Then we broke the episode, 349 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: and the Greg sort of brilliant investigation of Michael Scott's 350 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: psychology was instead of ripping the bandit off and doing 351 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: a responsible management thing, he tries to fire someone and 352 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: then gets talked out of it and then fires the 353 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: other person. And it was a coin flip. It was 354 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: honestly like Creed or Devon, who knows? And then he 355 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: was like, well, I don't even know if there was 356 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: a reason, but he switched it so that he fires 357 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: Creed and then Creed talks him out of it. And 358 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: I was on set with fig shooting the episode where 359 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: Michael buys a condo, and Fig was going to direct 360 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: that Halloween episode. So the episode that Greg wrote, which 361 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: is wonderful, hasn't it? Probably a six page scene more. 362 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: Michaels like, I'm sorry, I have to let you go, 363 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: and Creed talks him out of it, and we read 364 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: it on that We were at the location for Michael's 365 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: condo and we read the script and I was like, 366 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is so funny. And I went 367 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: to feed it. I was like, did you read this? 368 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: It's so funny. He goes like, yeah, it is really funny. 369 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: Can Creed act? It's like, I have no idea. I 370 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: don't think I've ever heard him talk, but like, let's 371 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: roll the dice and then you know, he's amazing. So 372 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,239 Speaker 1: it was, but it was literally in my memory at 373 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: one point it was Heat fires Creed and another point 374 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: it was he fires Deevan, and it just ended up 375 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: the way it ended up. But I don't think there 376 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: was any reason for it. I think it was. I 377 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: think it was a crazy I think maybe Greg liked 378 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: the real story, which we all knew by then. The 379 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: Creed was the actual Creed Bratton. It would have been 380 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: in the grassroots and anything. So maybe that had some 381 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: effect or something, but yeah, it was random chance. That's 382 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: so crazy. Um. Going back to the unlikely duos thing 383 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: for a second, I was talking to Kate Flannery about 384 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: Christmas party and Meredith flashing Michael, but then also having 385 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: this tender moment with him after he runs over her 386 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: with his car. I don't think those came from unlikely duos. 387 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: Although Michael hits someone with his car was an early pitch. 388 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: I don't remember you bushed it, but that that card 389 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: was up on the on the board for a while 390 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: before we did it. But the thing where Meredith flashes 391 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: him was nothing more than like the premise of that episode, 392 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: which I wrote, was Michael has an image in his 393 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: head of what a good party is, and a good 394 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: party is like a playboy mansion, and he says that 395 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: in the episode. He's like, it's playboy mansion. It's people 396 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: with heads, lamb shades on their heads. He has a 397 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: very very old timey, like like late seventies, early eighties 398 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: kind of idea of what like a crazy party. Yeah, 399 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: it's just it's it's people being drunk and and lambshades 400 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: on heads and stuff. Like that. And so he does 401 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: a bad job for a while of being a good 402 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: boss and throwing a good party because he throws a 403 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: hissy fit when people don't like his gift enough, and 404 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: then it gets stolen in the you know whatever, and 405 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: he gets an oven mit from Phyllis, which he doesn't like. Uh. 406 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: But then he becomes a good boss because he goes 407 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: out and he buys a ton of vodka and he 408 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: comes back and he's like, you know what, everybody cut 409 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: loose and it's kind of a good, kind of a 410 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: good move. It's not it's a little bit of a 411 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: blunt instrument, but it kind of works and the party 412 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: ends up fun. And so Greg was like, well, he 413 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: should get a little reward, not in the sense of 414 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: like a sexual reward, but in the sense of, like 415 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: he should get what he wants, which is a crazy party. 416 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: And the first thing that the genius of the breaking 417 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: of that story, which I don't take credit for it, 418 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: was they were all group efforts as a general rule, 419 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: But he first tries to manufacture his own reward, which 420 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: is he puts a lampshade on his own head and 421 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: runs out. It's like, look, it happened, right, and then 422 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: Packer shows up and that's like kind of a reward. 423 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: But then like the end of it of Meredith flashing 424 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: him is like he actually got his dream. He got 425 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: his dream of like a crazy office party, and like, 426 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: even though it's not appropriate for the office and it's 427 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: not you know, he doesn't actually feel good about that. 428 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,239 Speaker 1: You can see it in his face. He's like, oh, 429 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: this shouldn't be happening, but he can't resist taking a 430 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: picture of it because it's like this is evidence that 431 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: I did my job and through a great party. It 432 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: is strangely one of my all time favorite singular moments, 433 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: Meredith flashing yes, because I feel like it is so perfect. 434 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: And that episode that was just such a huge episode 435 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: for the ensemble. Yeah, you know, everybody, everybody really meant 436 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: something to do, and the show sort of was beginning 437 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: to take off. At that time. We were McDougald, which 438 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: was pleasurable yet interesting experience, and uh, and yeah, I 439 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: don't know. There was just something about the way that 440 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: played that told everything about Michael. And yeah, and but 441 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: you're right though, the key to that was the secret 442 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: Santa White Elephant, Dirty Christmas, whatever you want to call it, 443 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: and the thing meant everyone when I when we were 444 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: when I was a sign that episode. The first thing 445 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: I did is I went home and made a list 446 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: of who got who. I did a real draw. We 447 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: knew certain things. We knew that Jim had to have Pam, 448 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: and we knew that Michael had to have Ryan. But 449 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: then I put everyone else's name in and I just 450 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: did a random draw, and Kevin got Kevin. And that's 451 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: where that came from. Yes, And when I and when 452 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: that happened, I was like, oh my god, that's perfect, 453 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: Like he just buys himself a gift, doesn't tell anyone 454 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: advised himself a footpath. But yeah, I did. I So 455 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: I did a real draw and I had it mapped out, 456 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: and I when I was writing the script, I printed 457 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: it out and hung it next to my computer because 458 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: it got so confusing of like, wait, who has whom? 459 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: And there's a bunch of stuff in the deleted scenes 460 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: where you see the other gifts that people like, you know, 461 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: like in the episode, Oscar got Creed and get some 462 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: like a crummy key chain, and Creed got Jim and 463 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: gave him some old shirts that were lying around. But 464 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: then like every everybody had like there's a George Saunders book. 465 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: Toby bought someone a book of George Saunders short stories 466 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 1: because that book could come out. Civil War Land and 467 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: Bad Decline, one of my favorite books had come out, 468 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm just gonna get this in 469 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: the show because I want to so like you can 470 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: actually map out who everyone who everyone had, and who 471 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: what they got for each other person. That's awesome. Yeah, 472 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: I never knew that, Kevin Kevin, it was your random drawing. 473 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: Kevin got Kevin, Kevin got Kevin yep. So Lee talked 474 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: about this. I was talking to him about if there 475 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: were specific strengths because the episodes were different, were there 476 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: ways that either interested people or they were better at 477 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: And what he said was that he felt like he 478 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: and Jean were much more in the sort of cringe 479 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: comedy um, which you know, if you look at Dinner Party, 480 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: that certainly fits that bill. And what they said about 481 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: you was that you were much more optimistic. Do you 482 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: feel like that's true? Yeah? I do. Um. I feel 483 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: like my sweet spot on the show was, well, Christmas 484 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: Party is pretty optimistic episode. But like the episode Branch 485 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: closing that I wrote, I love that story because Jan 486 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: walks in on the first page of the episode and says, 487 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: we're shutting a branch down and it Michael has a 488 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: complete collapse and then he says, no, I'm not letting 489 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: this happen. I'm gonna do something about this, and he 490 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: and Dwight head off and they go to David Wallace's 491 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: house in Connecticut and just like, I'm going to confront 492 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: him and I'm gonna make him see that this is 493 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: not the right decision. It is utterly ineffectual. Wallace never 494 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: shows up. They just end up sitting there and are 495 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: miserable and completely unbeknownst to them, through a variety of 496 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: other machinesians, the branch ends up getting saved. But there's 497 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: a scene in the end where Michael and Dwight are 498 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: sitting in the car and that all hope is lost, 499 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: and Michael says, okay, top three favorite moments ever at 500 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: the office and Dwight says, like, you know, my first 501 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: day when you sprayed me with the fire extinguisher and 502 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: when yeah, I got sick and you came into the 503 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: m R. I you know, I got a concussion or whatever, 504 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: And then dwighte says, what about you? What are your 505 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: favorite moments, and Michael says all of them, every single one, 506 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: and then Dwight says, well, what about when Jan showed 507 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: up and said the branch was closing and he's like, 508 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: come on, man, But that I remember just thinking like this, 509 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: and that scene wasn't in the outline, and I remember 510 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: writing that scene and thinking like that that this is 511 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: like I locked into that idea. And I think it's 512 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: just because it was like a moment of humanity between 513 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: the two of them, where like the office is very 514 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: mean full, it's all Michael has, and him being able 515 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: to just sort of express in a sincere and human 516 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: way what he loved about the place, like that kind 517 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: of thing. I really felt like that that was my 518 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: jam um. But yeah, I mean those guys, like Greg's 519 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: theory was that writing staff should be like The X Men, 520 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: where he's like, if you have all people who are 521 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: the same and have the same like comedic power, you're 522 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: gonna have one awesome thing about the show. But if 523 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: you have if everybody has his or her own comedic power, 524 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: then you get everything. And so yeah, I think Lee 525 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: and James were really into the like super I mean, 526 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: those guys are so funny like Scott's Todds was an 527 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: episode they pitched very early on that Greg was like, 528 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: we're never doing this, and then long after I left, 529 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: I was watching him like, oh, I guess Greg gave in. 530 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, they love that. Jen Silata was Her superpower 531 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: is just this incredible connection to Pam Um. She's also hilarious, 532 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: but like she was like the beating heart of the show. 533 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: I would say, not just through Pam, through all the characters, 534 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: but like the episode where the bird dies and Michael 535 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: has the funeral for the bird, that was Jen from 536 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: beginning to end, and we kept like tinkering and tinkering 537 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,239 Speaker 1: and tinkering, and she eventually was like, I think I 538 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: just understand this and I just want to write it, 539 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: and we were like great, and then it's amazing. And 540 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: the part of it that she really locked into was Pam, 541 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: Pam understanding what Michael was going through and giving the 542 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: eulogy and trying to make Michael feel better by talking 543 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: about this dead bird. It's a really complicated emotional moment, 544 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: but Jen just like understood it at some fundamental level. 545 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: And you know, Paul was really into Michael's when Michael 546 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: was at his absolute worst, Like Paul was super into 547 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: the the Michael's worst instincts, right, Mindy was Mindy's superpower 548 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,719 Speaker 1: was always, um, the super absurd ist stuff. They really like, 549 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: crazy flights of fancy, you know, famously in the episode 550 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: where Michael burns his foot on the George Foreman grow 551 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: when my Chael burns his foot. I mean again, every 552 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: episode that everybody wrote was always rewritten a tremendous amount. 553 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: But I will say that that first monologue Michael has 554 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: where he's explained to the camera how he burned his foot, 555 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: I don't think we changed a word of it. Like 556 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: Mindy turned in her script and that speech was in there, 557 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: and it was really long, and it's really complicated and 558 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: it has it's a crazy roller coaster, and I don't 559 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: think we change a single word because she just like 560 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: she would lock into just the the super absurdist stuff 561 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: presented very straightforwardly, like yeah, I mean everyone everybody had 562 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: something they were good at. That stuff was incredible. Yeah, Um, 563 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: you talked about yourself and Michael and his love of 564 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: the office. Was there an early idea that he would 565 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: eventually find love and that would take him away. Yeah, 566 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 1: I mean that's always an idea in every TV show, right, 567 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: if anyone is single in a TV show, there's a 568 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: lingering question of like does that person find life partner? 569 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: But it was also very important for the show that 570 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen for a long time. And then after 571 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: and and as I was leaving to go develop parksn 572 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: Wreck with Greg, we met with Amy Ryan and that 573 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: so that was the beginning of season five and that 574 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: was like, that was the first time it was like, Okay, 575 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: we're shifting into a different gear with this guy. Like, 576 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: who knows how long this show will last, but we're 577 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: it feels like we're at some kind of midpoint here 578 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: and we've done it. At that point, we've done almost 579 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: a hundred episodes, and it was like, okay, it's time, 580 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: Like it's time to create a character for Michael Scott 581 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: who's like a viable love interest. And Jen was a 582 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: big part of that because she was like, oh, she 583 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: should be as big a dork as he is, Like 584 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: that's the way to do this right. It's not aspirational 585 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: in the sense of like she's a really put together, 586 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: like you know, sophisticate, who's gonna who Michael has to 587 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: change for the thing that links them is like she's 588 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: a dork and she does dorky voices, and she does 589 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: lame videos and like dances, and she's a female version 590 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: of Michael Scott, which is perfect. And all of that 591 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: stuff then came after I was gone, But Jen and 592 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: Paul and I at least and I think maybe um 593 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: Greg met her later, But Jen and Paul and I 594 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: think we're in the initial meeting we had with her 595 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: where we basically geeked out about the wire for like 596 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: for like an hour. UM. But she's a lovely person 597 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: and had it was like, oh, yeah, right, this is 598 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: gonna work. This is Michael's girlfriend, right, you said earlier, 599 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: um in you know, in a slightly dismissive way, like 600 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: every television show you have a single guy and then 601 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: eventually they're but you know, what's so crazy? And maybe 602 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: I'm alone here, But I don't think I am. I 603 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: never thought about that. For Michael. It wasn't like it 604 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: was the fact that he wanted it. I don't know, 605 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: it was not. It was never a high stakes thing. 606 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: I think there was Jim and Pam, you know, there 607 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: was some other stuff going on, and that the assumption 608 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: watching was whatever whoever he gets is going to be 609 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: a disaster, right, Like, it's just not it doesn't it 610 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: doesn't matter, and I don't I'm not invested in that. 611 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: And I think it's not until very very later when 612 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: he calls her it's actually she's not even there on 613 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: the phone. It's when he has herpes yes and yes 614 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: and says you're wrong. Um. So Greg again had a 615 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: lot of theories and um they were all correct. And 616 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: one of the things he said, he pinpointed for us 617 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: very early on, what makes this what makes the British 618 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: show so good? Right? And part of it is a 619 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: once in a generation performance from Ricky Gervais, and some 620 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: of it is um other incredible actors and and just wonderful, 621 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: like a wonderful premise in the sense of like a 622 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: mockumentary comedy show was a great idea, blah blah blah. 623 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: But he broke it down even further and he said, 624 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: almost every show in history has had a formula, and 625 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: the formula is the center of the show is a 626 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: will they won't they? Sam and Diane romance, and often 627 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: the corner is a wacky boss, and occasionally the wacky 628 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: boss comes in does something wacky and funny and gets 629 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: big lass and then leaves, and very simply, the British 630 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: Office inverted it. The Wacky Boss is the main part 631 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: of the show and shoved into the corner is this 632 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: will they won't they? Romance? And what that does two things. 633 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:26,959 Speaker 1: Number one, it makes the Wacky Boss into a viable 634 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: character worthy of introspection and layering and dimension in a 635 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: way that the Wacky Boss is not. Traditionally, no one 636 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: usually cares about what's going on in the Wacky bosses 637 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: emotional life. And it also means that when you shove 638 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: the romance into the corners and it becomes this very delicate, 639 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: gossamer spider web of glances and and tiny little moments 640 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: in the getting someone a candy bar from the vending 641 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: machine becomes an enormous emotional moment. Right then you have changed. 642 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: You fundamentally changed the way audiences relate to romance, which 643 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: is they're like, they're like on the edge of their seat, 644 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: Like I only got eight seconds of the romance this week. 645 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,439 Speaker 1: I want more. So I want to ask you about 646 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: another big episode you wrote, the Job where Jim finally 647 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: asks Pam out to dinner. Was there a fight about that. 648 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: Finally there was a big fight about the end of 649 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,439 Speaker 1: season two because that was not there was no fight 650 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: there that was like it was that was like a 651 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: crazy intense time. The ends of seasons were always like 652 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: we were so behind, and but Greg and Paul and 653 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: I broke that episode together and we're going to write 654 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: it together. Greg was going to write the first half 655 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: and Paul and I were going to split the second half. 656 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: And then Greg was like, I don't have time, you 657 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: guys write it. And also then Paul was like acting 658 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: a lot, and it was like, all right, I guess, 659 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: I guess I'll do it. But Paul and I ended 660 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: up writing it. But Greg really was was like, here's 661 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: what this story is, and it was like it was 662 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: very complicated. There going for a job and Karen was 663 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: going for the job, and Jim had to leave Karen 664 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: and and go back and whatever. And so Paul and 665 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: I wrote it and on the script on the read 666 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: through it said written by Greg Daniels and Paul. They 667 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: were seen him make sure and after the read through, 668 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: which went really well, Greg was like, I shouldn't be 669 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: credited on this. I didn't write this, and I was like, yes, 670 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: you did. Like you broke the story, Like we were 671 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: sitting in that room with you and you laid out 672 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: the beats of the story. Also, you you could take 673 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: writing credit on every one of these episodes if you legally, 674 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: if you wanted to. But he was like, no, I don't. 675 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: I you guys wrote this and I should step back, 676 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,439 Speaker 1: which was an insane thing to do because we knew 677 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: it was going to be a huge deal. Paul and 678 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: I end up winning a Writer's Guild Award for it, 679 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: and I remember thinking like, this should just be Greg 680 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: Like I like, he was such a model of show 681 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: runnerdom to me, just in the in the thoughtfulness with 682 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: which he did everything. Um, it's crazy that he's not 683 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: credited on the episode. Anyway, there was no fight over that. 684 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: That story was really clean. We changed very little of it. 685 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: Everything sort of unfolded very naturally. And then that take 686 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: that Jenna did. In my memory, it could be wrong, 687 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: I think that's the first take we did. No, I'm sorry, 688 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: it was a second take we did because there was 689 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: an amazing camera thing. It's really subtle. This is why 690 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: like Randall was so great. Um, she's doing talking head 691 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: and then Jim Knock just knocks and walks right in right, 692 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: and the camera swings over to him and he says, 693 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 1: are you free for dinner? And and she says yes, 694 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: and he goes great. Then it said date, and he 695 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: walks out and then the camera swings back to her 696 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: and she says, I'm sorry. She's smiling and about to 697 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: cry and says, I'm sorry, what was the question? And 698 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: so the first take it was wonderful and I was like, well, 699 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: that's perfect, that's great. And then the second take camera 700 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: swings over to Jim. He says great, said date, And 701 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: when the camera swings back, it pushed in and it's 702 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: just it mimics the exact thing that the audience did, 703 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: which is it leaned forward. It just the camera just 704 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: leaned full word because it was like, oh my god, 705 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: like And the thing that's been talked about a lot 706 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,760 Speaker 1: when people talk about the show is how the cameras 707 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: are characters. But a key moments like that, the operators 708 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: and the directors were so good at being like, the 709 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: camera should lean forward the way the audience is leaning 710 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: forward at that moment, and that take is just I 711 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: It's my favorite bit of acting Jena every did on 712 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 1: the show. I think it's absolutely perfect. Randall talked about 713 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: in terms of the documentary style. He said, everything that 714 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: makes it harder makes it better. And what he was 715 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: talking about was that he was insistent upon having to 716 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: work to get the shot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's also 717 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: um um, that's also set design, that's everything like that. 718 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: And we would often move stuff into the frame right, 719 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: like we would drag plants the plant plants. But I 720 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: remember some episode I was on the set for somebody 721 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: wanted to do something where there was a conversation at 722 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: the desk and then the person walked off and then 723 00:38:58,640 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: it sort of jumped to the other side of the 724 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 1: him near the hallway leading to the into the kitchen, 725 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: and they're like, all right, we wanted the cameras are 726 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,479 Speaker 1: here and here, and then we jumped to this shot 727 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: over here, and Randall was like, I don't think it's possible. 728 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: The camera operator would have to get all the way 729 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: into the annex where Toby sits in order for that 730 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: to happen, and we're like, han. He was like, well, 731 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: let me try it, and so we took a he 732 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: loaded a camera onto his back, onto his shoulder, and 733 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: they rehearsed the scene and then Randall ran down the stairs, 734 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: ran through the parking lot, and ran up the stairs 735 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: with a gigantic camera on his shoulder to see if 736 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: he could get set up in the annex to shoot 737 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: into the kitchen from the other side in time. And 738 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: he was like a second late, but he was like, 739 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna say that that's possible. And it 740 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: was like again, it's going back to this thing I 741 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: was saying earlier. We're like all of this stuff that 742 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: like is it real? Could it really happen? Like does 743 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: everyone have to be in character at their seats for 744 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,280 Speaker 1: half an hour before we roll? Like it's a little 745 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: bit actory and a little bit like whoa, We're like 746 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: this enter this fictional realm, and like it's a little embarrassing. 747 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: It's a little method, right, and and that stuff is 748 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: a little bit like you roll your eyes a little bit, 749 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: but look at the result, and it isn't that unless 750 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: you have people like Randall and Matt who are like, 751 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: well wait a second, what's the reality of this, Like 752 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: if there's two cameras, which we pretty much established that 753 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 1: this documentary cru has two cameras. I mean, I remember 754 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: Jeff Blitz coming who was a documentary filmmaker and him directing. 755 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: I was talking to him about the theory of the 756 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: show and this kind of standard pattern that we would 757 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: go through directors, and I was saying, like, you have 758 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: to set up your shots as if they could really 759 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: be captured. And he was like, well, based on the show, 760 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: these are the most talented documentary camera operators of all time, 761 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: because I seem to get everything. And I was like, 762 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: yes they are. They're very talented cameary filmmakers, but you 763 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,280 Speaker 1: have to make sure you get everything or that everything 764 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: you get is gettable by real people. Now, the rules 765 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: were very, very very strict for like three or four years. 766 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: As they went on, they got a little less stract, 767 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 1: and I remember having conversations in season four about oh no, 768 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: it was in season three. It was it was the 769 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: Traveling Salesman episode. Lee Jean and I wrote it, and 770 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: basically like you went off with Dwyt and Jim, you 771 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: went off with Phillis and Carrot, you went off with 772 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: Daily and Ryan, and there were cameras back in the office, 773 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: and we were like, well, what do we do now? Right? 774 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: And Greg was like, you know, the documentary company is 775 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 1: doing another documentary somewhere else. And it just got into 776 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of festivals and it got bought for a 777 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: lot of money and they're flushed with cash and they 778 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: hired other operators. Okay, let's go. And it was just like, okay, 779 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: so we're relaxing their rules a little bit because there 780 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: were suddenly five or six games. Um, but for a 781 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,479 Speaker 1: long time, like, you don't get the purity of what 782 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: the show was unless you create those rules and stick 783 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: to them. And I'd say like, sorry, you gotta, we gotta, 784 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: and we would cheat sometimes we would have security cam 785 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: footage rarely, like in the episode where there was a 786 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: the Ryan burned the toast, I think there's a security 787 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: cam shot because we really wanted the shot of Michael 788 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: shoving people out of the way and running out the door, 789 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: and there's no way to get that with the cameras 790 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: that we needed still in the thing whatever, So we 791 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: would cheat sometimes. But it was funny because when Greg 792 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: and I started Parks and Wreck, which is also a mockumentary, 793 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: we were like, okay, the the the deal is the 794 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: Office was such a success that now the documentarians have 795 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: a lot more tools, Like we were like, now the 796 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: rules are even looser, and we would set up shot 797 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: and so like if you track through the entire history 798 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: of both of those shows, by the end the documentary 799 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: crews were like there were fifteen cameras and thirty eight 800 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: sound guys and whatever. Um. I think that's the thing 801 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,720 Speaker 1: that they did keep through the end though they wouldn't 802 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,959 Speaker 1: use a shot where a camera guy whatever never did that. 803 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: That was the one hard and fast rule. Like if 804 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: if Michael was addressing a group of people and you 805 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: were right over his shoulder onto the group of people, 806 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: you could not then cut over the through the crowd 807 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: back flat on Michael where you saw space on both 808 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: sides of him, where one of the that camera would 809 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: be there. I don't think they ever broke that rule. 810 00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: If they did, it was very late in the game. 811 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: There were times when we kind of needed to do 812 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: something like that and Randall or Matt would walk around 813 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: and go like, well, what if the camera's hiding behind 814 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: something next to him or whatever. We would stage him 815 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: near a pillar and the idea was the camera was 816 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: over there and then like got out of the way, 817 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: like because in real life, Matt and Randall would communicate 818 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: with each other using hand signals I'm I'm demonstrating this 819 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: as if this isn't a podcast, but they would communicate. 820 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: They would wave like I'm going this way or back 821 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: up or whatever, like in the middle of a take, 822 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 1: and so we began to feel like, okay, well that's 823 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: what they would do in real life. They were. So 824 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: there were times when there was a camera in a 825 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: certain place and then when you cut to the other side, 826 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 1: like it was a real close call whether you would 827 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: have seen that camera. But as long as Randall and 828 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: ma could work it out, we're Randall would like duck 829 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: out of the way. In time, They'll be like, Okay, 830 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: well that's possible. So if they're again very talented, they're 831 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: really well, but I really do it bears repeating like, 832 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: I don't think this show is what it is without 833 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: the adherence to that kind of reality and those rules 834 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: that Greg and Can and everybody else set up. You know, 835 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: all right, folks, I'm gonna stop Mike there for now, 836 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: but he will be back. So if you're wondering why 837 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: didn't we talk about MOS, don't worry. We will get 838 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: to that. Mos will be discussed, as well as lots 839 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: of other juicy tidbits. Thank you all for joining me. 840 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: I hope you have the best week ever and we 841 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: will be back next time for more of the Office 842 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: Deep Dive. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive 843 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 1: produced by me Am baum Gartner, alongside our executive producer, 844 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 1: Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate 845 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. 846 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our 847 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend 848 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by Seth Olandsky.