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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics. I'm Molly Jongfast, and we have

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Speaker 2: such a great show for you today. Later in the show,

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Speaker 2: I will talk to the nation's Bhaskar Sankara about how

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Speaker 2: socialism can deliver for the American people. But first, we

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Speaker 2: have The Lincoln Project's Rick Wilson talking about how Republicans

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Speaker 2: are in a lot of trouble. Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Molly.

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Speaker 2: I'm going I'm about to read to you the list

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Speaker 2: of people that Donald Trump had on his plane when

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Speaker 2: he was flying to his latest rally. The one where

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Speaker 2: he famously said some things we can't say on cable television.

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Speaker 4: Yes, indeed. Right. But go ahead, read the list.

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Speaker 3: I think this is a sign that we will interpret

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Speaker 3: for our audiences after you read the list.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is like the bad idea caucus. Okay, among

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Speaker 2: those traveling with Trump on his way to the Dayton,

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Speaker 2: Ohio midterm rally, Boris Epstein, Esquire with the best, Natalie

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Speaker 2: Harp or the human printer.

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Speaker 3: First lady.

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Speaker 2: Holti, the king of the problematic poster board.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Daryl Issa. Dusty Johnson.

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Speaker 3: A blast from the past, baby.

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Speaker 4: Right there.

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Speaker 3: Daryl fricking Issa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: A couple of other people who don't really matter. And

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Speaker 2: CIA director John Radcliffe.

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Speaker 3: Because why wouldn't you go to a political event with

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Speaker 3: your head of national intelligence and your CIA director? Makes

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Speaker 3: perfect sense to me. But look, I have a theory

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Speaker 3: of the case. This is the time of the year

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Speaker 3: where the people who should be on the plane are

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Speaker 3: Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita and Tony Fabrizio and James

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Speaker 3: Blair and the people that make up the core political team.

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Speaker 3: But this seems more like the core binky team. This

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Speaker 3: seems more like the people who make him feel good.

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Speaker 3: And I got to tell you, I have a real

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Speaker 3: skepticism about whether Susie's got any hand left at all

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Speaker 3: on the tiller.

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Speaker 1: I have heard.

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Speaker 4: From a couple of.

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Speaker 3: Republicans that Fabrizio and La Cevita are now like the,

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Speaker 3: come sweet meteor of death, take us all phase of

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Speaker 3: their careers.

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Speaker 2: That's because Fabrizio is seeing those polls with John Ancelone

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Speaker 2: and John who is the, so they're doing, so what

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Speaker 2: we're seeing now is that bipartisan pollsters, Ancelone and Fabrizio

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Speaker 2: are doing polls together. Those two are like the killers, right?

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Speaker 2: Like they both have really good track records. Fabrizio is

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Speaker 2: like really the gold standards for Republican polling. We see

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Speaker 2: that Anzalone is the same for Democratic polling. And John

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Speaker 2: has shown that like the bottom has fucking fallen out

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Speaker 2: for Republicans.

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Speaker 3: And if you look at the and here's one of

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Speaker 3: the things about election polling. And my son, Andrew, and

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Speaker 3: I were talking about this the other day because he's

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Speaker 3: a pollster. Very rarely do the numbers get better in

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Speaker 3: the last month of a campaign. But they also don't

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Speaker 3: dramatically drop out. But what we're seeing now, if you

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Speaker 3: look at the New York Times Siena poll from just

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Speaker 3: this morning, the numbers are dropping out. The approvals are

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Speaker 3: down dramatically. The disapprovals are up dramatically. And that's across

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Speaker 3: the board from everybody from the president on down to

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Speaker 3: Republican dog catcher candidates in the states. And that motion

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Speaker 3: is because voters aren't getting any feedback that says, hey,

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Speaker 3: we hear you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that's because when voters get a window into

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump, it's him gluing gold stuff on the oval

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Speaker 2: or complaining about the heliport, you know, the helipad. Or,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the split screen that you're getting from the

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Speaker 2: Trump White House is like a golden split screen of

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Speaker 2: your taxpayer funds being just incinerated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, there was that clip of Kevin Hassett. I guess

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Speaker 3: it was on CNN. Kevin Hassett saying like, no, the

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Speaker 3: economy is great.

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Speaker 4: You're just too stupid to realize it. It's so good.

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Speaker 4: Things are great. It's amazing.

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Speaker 3: That is not where the voters are at right now.

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Speaker 2: And he was on with Tapper today and I was

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Speaker 2: reading the transcript where he was saying like, it's not fair.

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Speaker 2: You know, if I say the economy is great, I'm

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Speaker 2: in a bind. And if I say the economy is bad,

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Speaker 2: I'm in a bind. No, no, honey. Like people can't

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Speaker 2: afford stuff. And so whatever you say, they're going to

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Speaker 2: be like this fucking bullshit.

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Speaker 3: The bullshit detector, the shit filter, as they say, is full.

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Speaker 3: And nobody, and you have talked about this a bunch,

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Speaker 3: it's the unspinable nature of a gas, you know, the

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Speaker 3: gas prices. And no matter how much of a hard

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Speaker 3: Republican you are, how much Trump supporter you are, that

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Speaker 3: gas is not $ 2 a gallon. It's $ 5 a gallon.

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Speaker 3: That diesel, if you're a farmer or a trucker, is

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Speaker 3: not $ 3 a gallon. It's $ 7 a gallon or more

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Speaker 3: now in some places in the country. And so the

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Speaker 3: crazy part of this is his team, Fabrizio and La

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Speaker 3: Cevita and Blair, they do understand politics. And they understand

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Speaker 3: that what should be happening is the president should be

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Speaker 3: out there saying something. Like, I'm going to get gas

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Speaker 3: prices down, not this vague sort of woo-woo, you know,

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Speaker 3: we've beaten Iran 400 times now, and they're obliterated, and

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Speaker 3: they're begging for a deal.

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Speaker 4: They're clearly not.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: But even acknowledging the problem instead of saying things like,

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Speaker 3: you know, the economy is amazing and it's great and

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Speaker 3: everybody's happy, which, you know, when you tell voters enough

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Speaker 3: times that something that they don't believe, they know you're

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Speaker 3: just gaslighting them at that point.

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Speaker 4: They're going to switch you off.

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Speaker 2: So I want to say two things. In Alaska, where

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Speaker 2: it looks like Dan Sullivan, the incumbent, may very well

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Speaker 2: lose his Senate seat. I mean, all the polls show that.

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Speaker 4: Don't marry, baby.

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Speaker 2: We love her. Diesel prices are $ 9, the gallon. And

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Speaker 2: people have had to buy new pumps because the numbers

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Speaker 2: do not go that high.

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Speaker 4: That, you know.

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Speaker 3: The diesel fuel price crisis in this country is profoundly inflationary.

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Speaker 3: It is profoundly damaging. There are these truckers now who

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Speaker 3: are like, I saw an interview the other day with

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Speaker 3: a trucker. He says, my credit card has a $ 2, 500

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Speaker 3: limit and it costs me $ 1, 000 to tank up every

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Speaker 3: three days. I don't get paid, but every two weeks.

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Speaker 3: And so that math doesn't math. And the inflationary aspect

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Speaker 3: of it is something that keeps hitting and keeps hitting

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Speaker 3: and keeps hitting. And the other visual people are getting

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Speaker 3: is Dan Scavino on a cart popping champagne and gold leaf,

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Speaker 3: all the little things, and all the gigas and the decorating,

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Speaker 3: like you were talking about. None of that is adding

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Speaker 3: up for voters right now. And eventually voters can do math.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, so let's just talk about some of

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Speaker 2: these races where voters are doing math, because I think it's,

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Speaker 2: you know, we had Trump in the ruby red state

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Speaker 2: of Ohio, right? Oh, yeah. He's going, I think he's

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Speaker 2: going to Mobile, right?

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Speaker 4: Alabama.

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Speaker 3: He went to Mobile last, he was in Mobile night

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Speaker 3: before last in a 6,000 person arena, and apparently there

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Speaker 3: were about 350 people there. I think this is telling

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Speaker 3: us something.

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Speaker 2: So- But I think what's the most interesting here is

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Speaker 2: that when they go on the trail to swing states,

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Speaker 2: like what we saw with J.D.

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Speaker 1: Vance.

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Speaker 4: Swing states like Oklahoma.

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Speaker 2: Or Kansas. Swing states like Kansas. Kansas. They can't like

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Speaker 2: or I was a great example. So the Iowa Senate

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Speaker 2: candidate wouldn't campaign with J.D. Vance when he came.

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Speaker 1: So and he.

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Speaker 2: Was like, oh, she's really busy.

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Speaker 1: So what what is my hair?

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Speaker 2: Right. What what is behind the scenes happening where a

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Speaker 2: Senate candidate decides not to campaign with the vice president

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Speaker 2: or the president? Like what is what what is she seeing?

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Speaker 3: They're seeing in their polls that voters directly attribute the

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Speaker 3: economic crisis they're facing to Donald Trump. They're seeing that

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump's approval rating is now.

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Speaker 4: The range of approval ratings for.

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Speaker 3: Trump last week, his best number was 37. His worst

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Speaker 3: number was 27. They know that he is in that

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Speaker 3: red zone now.

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Speaker 4: Look, if the incumbent... The Bush line? What's that?

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Speaker 2: The Bush line?

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Speaker 4: Oh, it's the Bush line. It's absolutely the Bush line

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Speaker 4: in 2006.

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Speaker 3: And I had about 35 clients in 2006.

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Speaker 4: And we managed to win, I think, 12 of our

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Speaker 4: races that year.

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Speaker 2: And that was amazing.

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Speaker 4: That was a good year. But you couldn't... I mean,

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Speaker 4: stop me if this sounds familiar.

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Speaker 3: Unpopular Middle East war, president with approval ratings in the

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Speaker 3: low 30s, high 20s, inflation... and a sense that the

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Speaker 3: economy is out of reach for ordinary people. Now, that

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Speaker 3: would peak in 2008, but my God, the historical similarities

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Speaker 3: are screaming at us. And I've been saying this for

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Speaker 3: six months.

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Speaker 2: But back then, W, and I know you can attest

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Speaker 2: to this because you were there, told candidates they could

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Speaker 2: run against him.

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Speaker 3: 100%.

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Speaker 4: Rove had any number of.

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Speaker 3: First, very diplomatic phone calls from candidates like, you know,

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Speaker 3: it'd be helpful if you could send money, but not

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Speaker 3: necessarily our point. And Rove's attitude at the time was like,

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Speaker 3: you do you, go win, baby. Do what you got

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Speaker 3: to do. But now, if La Savita goes to Trump

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Speaker 3: and says, candidate X doesn't want you to come to

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Speaker 3: their state, He's going to go there just to spite them.

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Speaker 3: He's coming to Florida to torture Byron Donalds because Byron

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Speaker 3: Donalds took Trump off his website.

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Speaker 2: So the Wall Street Journal has a big, deep dive

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Speaker 2: into Byron Donalds today. And it talks about how when

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Speaker 2: Trump found out that Byron Donalds took him off the website,

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Speaker 2: Byron tweeted a picture of him and Trump, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't enough for Trump.

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Speaker 3: It's never enough.

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Speaker 4: It's never enough.

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Speaker 3: And there's a reason that Byron Donalds, who has now

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Speaker 3: spent 80 million bucks in Florida, why his approval rating

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Speaker 3: went from 42 down to 36. And that is because

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Speaker 3: when you ask voters in a focus group, and I

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Speaker 3: have seen one, who do you associate Byron Donalds with?

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Speaker 3: Who will he serve, the people of Florida or Donald Trump?

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Speaker 3: And these are undecided voters. 65% of them say that

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Speaker 3: he'll serve Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: It's not pretty.

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Speaker 3: And Trump in Florida is 13 points underwater right now.

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Speaker 4: On his approval.

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Speaker 3: And he's the same for all of the other policy issues.

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Speaker 3: It's similar to the national numbers. In Florida, he's underwater

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Speaker 3: on the economy and inflation by 50 points. Nobody likes

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Speaker 3: the guy on this. So Donald is running into the

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Speaker 3: headwinds of Trump. And if Trump's people were in control

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Speaker 3: of him, or if he was smart, they would be

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Speaker 3: able to say, hey, boss, we got to just let

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Speaker 3: him go. Let him try to run an independent 5B race.

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Speaker 3: but they can't do it. It's just impossible for them.

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Speaker 2: So here's my question for you. We have Byron Donalds struggling.

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Speaker 2: We have David Jolly, who you have some familiarity with.

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Speaker 4: I do.

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Speaker 2: What does David Jolly need to do to win in Florida?

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Speaker 3: Look, it's still a tie ball game. Jolly needs to

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Speaker 3: be up on TV enough. And I can tell you

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Speaker 3: there'll be some ads launching this week Across Florida, they'll

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Speaker 3: be targeting Donald's from an outside group. Finally, that's got

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Speaker 3: resources coming through that's going to hit him pretty hard.

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Speaker 3: He needs to keep making that contrast. He needs to

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Speaker 3: keep tying Donald's to Trump every day. He needs to

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Speaker 3: keep reminding voters in a broader picture that the Republican

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Speaker 3: Party has been in charge of Florida for 30 straight years.

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Speaker 3: There's never been a single day a Democrat was in

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Speaker 3: charge of any policy in Florida and that their insurance

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Speaker 3: rates are through the roof. that housing is unaffordable, that

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Speaker 3: healthcare is unaffordable, that rural hospitals are closing at a

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Speaker 3: rapid clip, and that for them to have a prosperous future,

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Speaker 3: they have to change something. Florida is the state that

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Speaker 3: I think right now is in the most churn politically

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Speaker 3: across the country. We're starting to see races moving that

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Speaker 3: had no business moving before this. In 13, Leela Gray

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Speaker 3: against Annapolina Luna. Salazar down in South Florida.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about Elliot Rodriguez and Maria Salazar. Salazar won

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Speaker 2: that seat by 20 points. It is Miami. It is

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Speaker 2: Cuban voters, which I feel like are their own specific thing.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things you got to remember about

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Speaker 3: Elliot Rodriguez, first off, is he was the local CBS

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Speaker 3: anchor for years and years. Everybody knows this guy. They

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Speaker 3: have that classic parasocial relationship.

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Speaker 4: Oh, there's Elliot.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's going to talk about the high school

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Speaker 3: football game, or he's going to talk about the car

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Speaker 3: crash on 95 or whatever it is, right? Or the

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Speaker 3: corrupt city council. That's a story you can have every

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Speaker 3: day in Miami. So Salazar was an all in on Trump. 100%

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Speaker 3: voting record with him. The whole thing. And then Trump

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Speaker 3: and Stephen Miller, they said, okay, we're going to undo

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Speaker 3: TPS status for all the Haitians.

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Speaker 4: And there was a little rumble.

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Speaker 3: And all the Dominicans, a little bigger rumble. And all

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Speaker 3: the Venezuelans.

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Speaker 4: And then a lot of people were like, wait, what?

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Speaker 4: And then Cubans.

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Speaker 2: Oh, did they do it for Cubans too?

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Speaker 3: He's done it for Cubans too. So they have taken

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Speaker 3: TPS away from about 350,000 voters or people, not voters,

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Speaker 3: excuse me. I don't want to get DHS on me.

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Speaker 3: 350,000 people in Dade County. Those people are being deported

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Speaker 3: and they're being deported now. They've been told either self-deport

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Speaker 3: or ICE will come and arrest you. Now those people

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Speaker 3: are not voters, but you know who they are? They're

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Speaker 3: the employees of people because they were all here legally

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Speaker 3: under TPS. So they got work permits. They were the

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Speaker 3: employees of small businesses across Miami-Dade. They were nannies and

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Speaker 3: home health care aides and cleaners and gardeners and cooks

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Speaker 3: and people who were working in jobs the Anglos in

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Speaker 3: Miami don't want to do. And the Cubans in Miami

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Speaker 3: don't want to do. And so now they've not only

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Speaker 3: blown a hole in these communities where they're reporting people

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Speaker 3: who are cousins and uncles and nephews and brothers and sisters,

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Speaker 3: all these things. You've also blown a hole in the economy.

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Speaker 4: And Miami is a service economy. Right.

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Speaker 3: It is a fundamentally service-driven economy. And those folks, especially

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Speaker 3: in a weird niche in Miami, South Florida in general,

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Speaker 3: but Miami in particular, of Haitian nurses and home health

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Speaker 3: care aides, about 50,000 or 60,000 of those people are

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Speaker 3: working in the home health care or senior care area.

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Speaker 3: And people are like, wait a minute. You're sending back

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Speaker 3: the person who takes care of mom or dad or

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Speaker 3: grandma or grandpa.

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Speaker 4: And it does not scan.

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Speaker 3: So Salazar comes out and does this sort of weak,

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Speaker 3: sort of like, oh, you're wrong, Donald Trump, but I'll

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Speaker 3: still vote for you 100% of the time.

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Speaker 4: Okay. That ain't selling.

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Speaker 2: And it gets Trump really mad, which is the real

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Speaker 2: problem these candidates have, which is- She would have.

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Speaker 4: Lost without me, but now she will lose without me.

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Speaker 2: Right. Unlike Bush- in 2006 or Biden or Obama or,

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Speaker 2: you know, any of those previous presidents, if you turn

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Speaker 2: on Donald Trump, he either comes to campaign with you,

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Speaker 2: which is worse, or turns MAGA against you, which is worse.

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Speaker 2: Like both are losing propositions.

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Speaker 3: These people are in a very bad political vice. You know,

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Speaker 3: they're squeezed on both ends. If they do the thing

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Speaker 3: that will save them politically, he will punish them. If

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Speaker 3: they do the thing that makes them happy, the voters

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Speaker 3: will punish them. So we're looking at, this is why

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Speaker 3: we're looking at 235 seats as a majority. This is

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Speaker 3: why we're looking at, and since we last spoke, even

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Speaker 3: more of these Republican consultants are out telling people off

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Speaker 3: the record, yeah, my client's in an R plus 15 seat,

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Speaker 3: so it's a competitive race. And again, there are plenty

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Speaker 3: of things. That a rational actor would do to save

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Speaker 3: their majority. None of them are happening. And the clock

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Speaker 3: is now at one month, essentially.

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Speaker 4: One month and two days.

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Speaker 3: We're recording this. One month and four days, whatever it is.

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Speaker 3: There's a month to go. And it's really hard to

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Speaker 3: make a positive externality impact an election a month out.

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Speaker 2: I want you to talk about the money because Republicans

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Speaker 2: have a lot more money. They have Elon. They have Trump.

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Speaker 2: They have this billionaire. They have that. You know, the

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Speaker 2: number of Republican billionaires is, you know, they have about

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Speaker 2: 20 more. You know, they have huge, stable billionaires. But

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Speaker 2: there's a phenomenon that happens when you're losing where money

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Speaker 2: dries up, even if your people don't have. So talk

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Speaker 2: us through that political phenomenon.

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Speaker 3: So even Elon so far, I shouldn't jinx it because

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Speaker 3: now he'll hear us and go spend it. Even Elon

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Speaker 3: has not splooshed out this massive amount of money everybody expected.

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Speaker 3: It's just not there. And while Trump, when he got

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Speaker 3: criticism for keeping that $ 450 million, they splashed out about

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Speaker 3: 10 of it, but they haven't spent any more. And

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Speaker 3: a few of them still are spending. Ken Griffin, Jeff Yass,

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Speaker 3: the Oracle dudes.

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Speaker 2: The U-Lines in Wisconsin because they want Tom Tiffany.

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Speaker 3: There's also, yeah, where they really want Tom Tiffany. That race,

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Speaker 3: I do keep an eye on it. It's Wisconsin. You

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Speaker 3: can never sleep on Wisconsin. I do think it's important, though,

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Speaker 3: to also consider just how much money can do given

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Speaker 3: the climate. And I don't know if there's some sort

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Speaker 3: of derivative or scalar function there. of money in this environment,

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Speaker 3: but I'm seeing a lot of places, Ken Paxton, $ 130

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Speaker 3: million spend in the last month and a half in Texas.

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Speaker 3: Numbers have gone down. Tallarico's numbers have gone up. Most

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Speaker 3: of the 130 they spent against Tallarico was negative. It

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Speaker 3: was all trans, trans, trans.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And communist, whatever, vegan, whatever fantasy world they have, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, vegan. He's very down on him for being a vegan.

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Speaker 2: But he's not a vegan, is he?

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Speaker 4: He's not.

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Speaker 3: He's not a vegan.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But the problem is, all the advertising is 30 million.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Tallarico's approval rating has gone up. His head-to-head with Paxton

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Speaker 3: has gone up. Voter intention to vote for Tallarico has

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Speaker 3: gone up. Paxton's approval has gone down. His head-to-head has

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Speaker 3: gone down. Voter intention to vote for Paxton has gone down. So,

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Speaker 3: and same story as we discussed in Florida with Byron Donalds.

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Speaker 3: He spends money, he gets less popular. Can we talk about-

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Speaker 3: Attacks don't have the same juice that they would have

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Speaker 3: had in a more normal political climate.

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Speaker 2: Though, can we talk about the Angela Paxton ad?

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Speaker 4: What the hell?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Angela Paxton looks like a hostage. In it,

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Speaker 2: she says, we have to vote for the Republicans. I mean, what?

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Speaker 2: She doesn't mention his name.

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Speaker 4: He's going to vote for him on biblical grounds, Molly.

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Speaker 4: That's the only answer.

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Speaker 2: How do you even get divorced on biblical grounds? Anyway,

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Speaker 2: Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 4: Molly John Fast. Can I come back? No.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 5: Somali listeners probably noticed the show is in a different order.

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Speaker 5: We are changing things up since we are now doing

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Speaker 5: a lot more video. And yeah, really excited about this.

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Speaker 5: You know what I'm also excited about? How stupid the

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Speaker 5: GOP's plan to win the midterms is coming from Chris Ruffo,

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Speaker 5: who you may remember from DEI and CRT panics.

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Speaker 2: So first of all, excited about the new format. Please

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Speaker 2: like and subscribe and enjoy my dog on my lap.

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Speaker 2: Christopher Rufo, known for DEI and CRT. So this is

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Speaker 2: this guy is like basically the brain child of the admin.

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Speaker 2: He is the person who comes up with some of

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Speaker 2: their worst ideas.

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Speaker 6: Particularly, thank you, Ron DeSantis for this guy.

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Speaker 2: Right. So he is the sort of brain behind, and

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Speaker 2: I use brain in quotes. So he came up with DEI,

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Speaker 2: which was this idea that law schools taught this high

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Speaker 2: level way to not be discriminatory. Well, now, and that

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Speaker 2: was the biggest danger was doing, you know, was not

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Speaker 2: discriminating against people. That was the biggest danger. And CRT

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Speaker 2: was And now these are these panics, these ways in

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Speaker 2: which Republicans tell other Republicans that they that libs are

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Speaker 2: taking stuff away from them. So now Ruffo, who has

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Speaker 2: become sort of has gone from like the very dark

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Speaker 2: corners of the Internet to being respectable. Well, he's a

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Speaker 2: senior member of the Manhattan Institute, which is a real

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Speaker 2: think tank. And he's been on Ezra's podcast, which is

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Speaker 2: a real podcast. So he has really, you know, and

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Speaker 2: he has huge number of subscribers on Substract. You know,

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Speaker 2: this guy is basically as fancy as it gets for

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Speaker 2: the for people who espouse him. really problematic, really discriminatory views.

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Speaker 2: And so he's no longer against critical race theory. Well,

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Speaker 2: he is, but he's no longer focused on critical race

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Speaker 2: theory and DEI. He has changed his focus. And now

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Speaker 2: he's focused to the fact that, and I swear to God,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say this and, uh, As I say it,

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Speaker 2: I understand as a Jew what he's doing because it's

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Speaker 2: absolutely this is what they did to the Jews and

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Speaker 2: now they're doing it to the Indians.

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Speaker 5: I mean, to be honest with you, we can't even

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Speaker 5: say past tense. Right now, one of the most popular

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Speaker 5: things right wing people tweet on Elon Musk's Nazi platform

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Speaker 5: is the Jewish question.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And this is now the Indian question. And so what

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Speaker 2: this is, is a way in which and again. This

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Speaker 2: comes from a viral racist post by Beau French. Beau

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Speaker 2: French is a statewide candidate in Texas. OK, he's the

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Speaker 2: GOP candidate for Texas Railroad Commissioner. Now, Texas Railroad Commissioner

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Speaker 2: is like Florida's ag chair. It's a real position with

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Speaker 2: real people. responsibilities. And Beau French is running for it.

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Speaker 2: And he is famous for seeing a post from UT

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Speaker 2: graduation and seeing a lot of Indian people in it

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Speaker 2: and being furious, basically. He's furious that Indian people got

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Speaker 2: to go to UT graduation because just like with Jews

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Speaker 2: and these people are mad at academic achievement. And so

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Speaker 2: they're mad at these Indian college students because they went

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Speaker 2: to college and did well there. And that is exactly

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Speaker 2: the same as what we're seeing with these... You know,

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Speaker 2: these are right-wing extremists who are looking for someone to scapegoat.

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Speaker 2: And they are now have... have focused on Indians. And again,

440
00:24:48,109 --> 00:24:50,890
Speaker 2: like why I think this is so interesting in this

441
00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:54,889
Speaker 2: moment is that Donald Trump was really elected with the

442
00:24:54,990 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: closest thing to a multiracial coalition of people who were

443
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,859
Speaker 2: who were signing off on racist things like deportation. And

444
00:25:06,830 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: And so this crew, this multiracial coalition, is now laser

445
00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: focused on the Indian question. And that is really, really

446
00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:23,020
Speaker 2: not good and shows that we're in a lot of trouble.

447
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm sure this is going to go great for

448
00:25:26,020 --> 00:25:28,889
Speaker 6: them in the midterms. Just absolutely great. Well, let's hope

449
00:25:28,990 --> 00:25:32,070
Speaker 6: it doesn't. Yeah, no, I don't think it's going to.

450
00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:32,530
Speaker 1: Yeah.

451
00:25:33,940 --> 00:25:37,350
Speaker 6: So speaking of the midterms, we have some a whole

452
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:40,750
Speaker 6: handful of new reports that the GOP are saving the

453
00:25:40,810 --> 00:25:44,090
Speaker 6: unpopular stuff for after the election during the lame duck period.

454
00:25:44,190 --> 00:25:46,070
Speaker 2: I mean, this is like file this under things we

455
00:25:46,109 --> 00:25:49,530
Speaker 2: thought might be happening, but didn't weren't totally sure. But

456
00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:54,050
Speaker 2: this is a quiet word. This is reporting of a

457
00:25:54,090 --> 00:25:58,210
Speaker 2: quiet word from the White House to the Justice Department

458
00:25:58,330 --> 00:26:01,130
Speaker 2: coming from the Washington Sun. The Washington Sun is this

459
00:26:01,170 --> 00:26:04,189
Speaker 2: newspaper that. That where all the people who were in

460
00:26:04,210 --> 00:26:07,410
Speaker 2: The Washington Post who got fired by Jeff Bezos because

461
00:26:07,450 --> 00:26:11,550
Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos is trying to get regulatory capture from Donald Trump,

462
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,060
Speaker 2: they all went to The Washington Sun. The Washington Sun

463
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: has this reporting. Attorney General Todd Boyer has moved slowly

464
00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:25,700
Speaker 2: on abortion pill litigation. And you know why? Because he

465
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 2: says that we need to wait until after the midterms.

466
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: That's because they know it's unpopular. Imagine how unpopular these

467
00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:38,380
Speaker 2: things must be for them to like they must have

468
00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:41,129
Speaker 2: polls that show this stuff is really bad because they're

469
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:45,070
Speaker 2: already doing so much unpopular stuff. So here are the

470
00:26:45,109 --> 00:26:47,669
Speaker 2: things they're not going to do until after the midterms.

471
00:26:48,470 --> 00:26:51,609
Speaker 2: One is go after abortion pills. We know that's coming.

472
00:26:52,030 --> 00:26:55,750
Speaker 2: The other, and that's all the abortion related stuff. That's

473
00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:57,810
Speaker 2: like we're going to see a lot more of that stuff,

474
00:26:57,990 --> 00:27:02,500
Speaker 2: them prosecuting doctors and them trying to take the pills

475
00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 2: off the market, et cetera, et cetera. But then we're

476
00:27:05,980 --> 00:27:09,660
Speaker 2: also probably going to see some other really scary stuff,

477
00:27:09,820 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: and that's Either just blowing up Iran, where there are

478
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,820
Speaker 2: 80 million people, which would be really, really bad. I

479
00:27:17,859 --> 00:27:21,980
Speaker 2: don't know what that looks like. Probably war crimes. Or

480
00:27:22,140 --> 00:27:28,390
Speaker 2: surrendering to Iran, also probably pretty bad. And that is

481
00:27:28,550 --> 00:27:31,850
Speaker 2: so either we'll go into a ground war, which could

482
00:27:31,890 --> 00:27:35,210
Speaker 2: be catastrophic. Nobody wants it. Doesn't even make any sense.

483
00:27:36,030 --> 00:27:40,430
Speaker 2: Or we'll have some kind of surrender situation, which would

484
00:27:40,490 --> 00:27:46,940
Speaker 2: also be probably catastrophic. The other possibility is throwing more

485
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,260
Speaker 2: money that we don't have at the Pentagon because the

486
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: Pentagon wants more money. And Pete Hegg says, or as

487
00:27:54,619 --> 00:27:58,550
Speaker 2: we call him at this podcast, Whiskey Pete says, just

488
00:27:58,630 --> 00:28:02,830
Speaker 2: needs more cash we are having a munition shortage and

489
00:28:03,030 --> 00:28:07,820
Speaker 2: also whiskey p laser focused on waste measurements and testosterone

490
00:28:07,859 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 2: testing yeah.

491
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,540
Speaker 5: And also we can't forget that they're considering uh going

492
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 5: in after voting rights and cutting the social safety net

493
00:28:16,619 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 5: even more um there's all sorts of horrible horrible things

494
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 5: in here that they think they can get done but

495
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,820
Speaker 5: i question if um The guy who's so good at

496
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,270
Speaker 5: his job, Speaker Mike Johnson, could get any of this

497
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:27,930
Speaker 5: really done.

498
00:28:28,290 --> 00:28:28,929
Speaker 1: I mean, just.

499
00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:32,450
Speaker 2: Remember that Speaker Mike Johnson sent everyone home. Why? Because

500
00:28:32,490 --> 00:28:35,930
Speaker 2: they wanted to impeach Whiskey Pete.

501
00:28:36,609 --> 00:28:37,649
Speaker 6: Yep.

502
00:28:38,050 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 5: Somali, we have a new character in the White House.

503
00:28:41,970 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 5: She's a real character. Her name is Benny Ray Harmony.

504
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: You know she's good because she misspells all of the

505
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:50,660
Speaker 2: many parts of her name.

506
00:28:51,870 --> 00:28:53,570
Speaker 6: Well, two of three at least, yes.

507
00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:57,870
Speaker 2: And she is 24. I'm surprised it's not Harmony with, like,

508
00:28:57,910 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: multiple E's instead of Y.

509
00:29:00,050 --> 00:29:01,150
Speaker 6: Or what about a Hermite?

510
00:29:02,110 --> 00:29:05,570
Speaker 2: So she has worked for Real America's Voice and Charlie

511
00:29:05,610 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: Kirk's Turning Point USA. She is the new assistant press secretary.

512
00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:15,140
Speaker 2: She once— posed for a photo with a rifle while

513
00:29:15,180 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: wearing a F-star Joe Biden T-shirt. She was a fan

514
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:25,210
Speaker 2: of Charlie Kirk. She's 24 years old, and she is

515
00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:27,370
Speaker 2: now working in the White House.

516
00:29:28,210 --> 00:29:31,610
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is because of the absence of everyone's fave,

517
00:29:32,150 --> 00:29:35,790
Speaker 5: Caroline Leavitt, since they cannot figure out who will take

518
00:29:35,910 --> 00:29:37,310
Speaker 5: her inimitable place.

519
00:29:37,330 --> 00:29:39,950
Speaker 3: It's good.

520
00:29:40,020 --> 00:29:42,820
Speaker 2: To be Scott Jennings. I'm a little disappointed that it's

521
00:29:42,860 --> 00:29:46,020
Speaker 2: not Scott Jennings. You know Scott Jennings has been like

522
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: waiting for that phone call.

523
00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:52,459
Speaker 5: I doubt in between rage sessions where he yells at

524
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,620
Speaker 5: 20-year-olds on CNN that he's not just sitting there watching

525
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,090
Speaker 5: the cell phone looking for a orange face to pop

526
00:29:59,150 --> 00:29:59,710
Speaker 5: up on the phone.

527
00:30:00,020 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think.

528
00:30:01,860 --> 00:30:02,180
Speaker 1: Yeah.

529
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: I mean, like, it's funny because Byron Donald's in this

530
00:30:05,940 --> 00:30:10,050
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal piece. Byron Donald's has a special ringtone

531
00:30:10,090 --> 00:30:12,290
Speaker 2: for Trump. I wonder how many people have a special

532
00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:13,550
Speaker 2: Trump ringtone.

533
00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:17,450
Speaker 5: I forgot about the concept of doing it. What song

534
00:30:17,490 --> 00:30:20,130
Speaker 5: do you think plays for Trump when he calls for

535
00:30:20,170 --> 00:30:20,650
Speaker 5: these people?

536
00:30:20,910 --> 00:30:21,570
Speaker 6: Is it YMCA?

537
00:30:21,730 --> 00:30:24,430
Speaker 2: It's got to be YMCA or Phantom of the Opera.

538
00:30:25,390 --> 00:30:26,430
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah.

539
00:30:26,570 --> 00:30:27,310
Speaker 1: Or Cats.

540
00:30:28,150 --> 00:30:29,750
Speaker 6: What would you make his ringtone?

541
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: I don't know how to do ringtones. My phone is

542
00:30:34,030 --> 00:30:36,870
Speaker 2: silent forever and ever, which is why if you call me,

543
00:30:36,910 --> 00:30:37,710
Speaker 2: I'll never pick up.

544
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:41,270
Speaker 5: I probably would get up just saying China over and

545
00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:45,170
Speaker 5: over again. So, Molly, we have one more terrible character

546
00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:48,050
Speaker 5: to talk about in this episode of Terrible Characters. Benny

547
00:30:48,090 --> 00:30:53,930
Speaker 5: Johnson is being sued by some ICE protesters for him

548
00:30:54,410 --> 00:30:55,850
Speaker 5: calling them left-wing terrorists.

549
00:30:56,210 --> 00:31:03,630
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because... there has been so much of

550
00:31:03,710 --> 00:31:05,950
Speaker 2: this kind of thing. You know, I'm thinking about, like,

551
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:09,900
Speaker 2: this week, Renee Goode, the family of Renee Goode, has

552
00:31:10,060 --> 00:31:15,860
Speaker 2: sued multiple members of the Trump administration over the way

553
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,180
Speaker 2: that they painted her, the way they maligned her after

554
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:24,410
Speaker 2: she was murdered. And it's just interesting to see that

555
00:31:24,430 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: there's some accountability here. Like, we've spent... And again... I

556
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,060
Speaker 2: don't know that this will go anywhere. I mean, there's

557
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: the the the First Amendment has a pretty high bar, unfortunately,

558
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,469
Speaker 2: for Trump world. But it is, you know, unless you

559
00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:43,390
Speaker 2: can show damages, it's really important that we protect free speech,

560
00:31:43,570 --> 00:31:45,910
Speaker 2: no matter even if the speech we don't like the

561
00:31:45,950 --> 00:31:49,230
Speaker 2: speech or something like that. But it's interesting to me,

562
00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:52,460
Speaker 2: there is really like we are going to see so

563
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,820
Speaker 2: many civil cases About, you know, about so much of

564
00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: what's happened in the last two years. And and like

565
00:31:59,980 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: Renee Good, this Renee Good case is a really good

566
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: example of that. Like, we're going to see a lot

567
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,820
Speaker 2: more of this accountability. And even if like Trump is

568
00:32:06,860 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: very hot to pardon people and even if there are pardons.

569
00:32:10,690 --> 00:32:13,730
Speaker 2: At the federal level, we'll see crimes at the state level,

570
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:16,410
Speaker 2: but we'll also see like these civil cases and like

571
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: Donald Trump is doing a lot of stuff where maybe

572
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,940
Speaker 2: he's not criminally liable because of the power of the

573
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,330
Speaker 2: presidency and because of the Supreme Court Supreme Court's like

574
00:32:27,530 --> 00:32:30,820
Speaker 2: decision to make him an imperial president. But there will

575
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,930
Speaker 2: be accountability for these administrations because like we're a country

576
00:32:34,970 --> 00:32:37,590
Speaker 2: with a rule of law and checks and balances, which

577
00:32:37,610 --> 00:32:40,930
Speaker 2: has maybe I mean, again, I don't know what happens.

578
00:32:41,390 --> 00:32:43,740
Speaker 2: I think Democrats will win the midterms and I think

579
00:32:43,780 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: the midterms will be free and fair. But I do

580
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: think we're going to there's going to be real questions about.

581
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: what comes next when it comes to straightening all of

582
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,460
Speaker 2: this out. And there's going to be a lot of

583
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,710
Speaker 2: hearings and a lot of depositions and a lot of

584
00:33:03,510 --> 00:33:06,130
Speaker 2: charges and civil cases. I mean, we're going to have,

585
00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:09,590
Speaker 2: this is going to make, I mean, this is what

586
00:33:09,610 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: the American people want. It's going to make Watergate look like,

587
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:15,700
Speaker 2: you know, nothing.

588
00:33:16,660 --> 00:33:18,370
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think one of the other things to keep

589
00:33:18,410 --> 00:33:21,650
Speaker 5: in mind here is Benny Johnson threatens to sue people

590
00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:24,010
Speaker 5: constantly and then doesn't go through with it. And many

591
00:33:24,030 --> 00:33:27,290
Speaker 5: people speculate that's because he has to hide something that

592
00:33:27,550 --> 00:33:29,930
Speaker 5: many people talk about very publicly about him that I'm

593
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:30,620
Speaker 5: not going to say.

594
00:33:33,060 --> 00:33:36,260
Speaker 2: I mean, I think one of the worst things about

595
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,780
Speaker 2: this period in American life is that we've elevated people

596
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,490
Speaker 2: who are not really... relevant to the discourse. And so

597
00:33:44,510 --> 00:33:46,990
Speaker 2: I would file him under that.

598
00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:48,010
Speaker 4: Yeah.

599
00:33:48,090 --> 00:33:48,830
Speaker 6: Or responsible.

600
00:33:48,850 --> 00:33:51,470
Speaker 5: You know, you and I constantly make sure to not

601
00:33:51,530 --> 00:33:54,710
Speaker 5: say many things like what he says about people because

602
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:55,850
Speaker 5: we fear this happening.

603
00:33:56,450 --> 00:33:59,830
Speaker 2: We don't do we I mean, I don't I can't

604
00:33:59,890 --> 00:34:02,190
Speaker 2: even get involved in the Benny Johnson discourse. But I

605
00:34:02,250 --> 00:34:06,950
Speaker 2: do think that, you know, there is going to be

606
00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:09,790
Speaker 2: a larger accountability, which I think is important for people

607
00:34:09,830 --> 00:34:15,190
Speaker 2: to remember. Bhaskar Sankara is the founder of Jacobin, the

608
00:34:15,250 --> 00:34:19,540
Speaker 2: president of The Nation, and the co-author of The Blueprint,

609
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,100
Speaker 2: How Socialism Can Work in the Real World. Welcome, welcome

610
00:34:24,140 --> 00:34:25,339
Speaker 2: to Fast Politics.

611
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,620
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Molly.

612
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:31,700
Speaker 2: Let's talk about socialism, shall we? How can it work?

613
00:34:32,380 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 7: Well, I think that we have to start with saying

614
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 7: that socialism in various forms have actually been tried in

615
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 7: the sense that I think a lot of democratic socialists

616
00:34:41,860 --> 00:34:45,819
Speaker 7: like myself like to do the no true Scotsman sort

617
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,649
Speaker 7: of argument and say that, no, no one has really

618
00:34:48,690 --> 00:34:51,410
Speaker 7: had this idea. They were all imposters just pretending to

619
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:56,609
Speaker 7: be socialists. So socialism was tried, of course, in Soviet-style systems,

620
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 7: and that ended really poorly.

621
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:59,830
Speaker 1: Not good.

622
00:34:59,910 --> 00:35:02,029
Speaker 7: I would say, to the credit of those systems, that

623
00:35:02,050 --> 00:35:05,089
Speaker 7: if you're living in a peasant country and you want

624
00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:09,049
Speaker 7: to very quickly build an education system, a system of

625
00:35:09,090 --> 00:35:13,989
Speaker 7: higher education, a healthcare system, and T-34 tanks, then there's

626
00:35:14,010 --> 00:35:15,290
Speaker 7: something to command economies.

627
00:35:15,330 --> 00:35:16,170
Speaker 1: But it's utterly.

628
00:35:17,090 --> 00:35:21,430
Speaker 7: irrelevant to our times and led to obviously terrific authoritarianism

629
00:35:21,469 --> 00:35:25,529
Speaker 7: and other problems. But socialism was also tried in the

630
00:35:25,570 --> 00:35:30,140
Speaker 7: Nordic countries where parties that came from Marxist roots, that

631
00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 7: called themselves socialists, ended up just administrating capitalism, but doing

632
00:35:35,780 --> 00:35:38,100
Speaker 7: so in a way that really empowered workers and guaranteed

633
00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 7: social rights and things like that. So in my book,

634
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,940
Speaker 7: I try to, you know, the socialist manifesto really get

635
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 7: into like some of these past experiments and say that

636
00:35:47,940 --> 00:35:50,379
Speaker 7: there is a model of socialism that combines the best

637
00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 7: of the Nordic system with also the real world experiences

638
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,500
Speaker 7: of worker cooperatives that I think would be much better

639
00:35:57,540 --> 00:36:00,780
Speaker 7: than capitalism and wouldn't be that scary of a prospect

640
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,690
Speaker 7: for those of us who rightly care about our democracy

641
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:06,610
Speaker 7: and the freedoms we do enjoy today.

642
00:36:07,590 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: I think that is for sure the kind of really,

643
00:36:13,219 --> 00:36:15,820
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to look at those Nordic countries

644
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: and not think that those people are, you know, you

645
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,489
Speaker 2: can get sick, you don't get bankrupt, you can have kids,

646
00:36:23,610 --> 00:36:27,870
Speaker 2: you can send them to school, have a lot. I mean,

647
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:33,150
Speaker 2: the argument against it that I've heard is that people

648
00:36:33,170 --> 00:36:36,310
Speaker 2: sort of say, well, they're just so different because they're

649
00:36:36,350 --> 00:36:37,530
Speaker 2: so homogenous.

650
00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:38,710
Speaker 4: Yeah.

651
00:36:39,070 --> 00:36:43,069
Speaker 7: I mean, I think that for one thing, These societies

652
00:36:43,350 --> 00:36:45,830
Speaker 7: that exist today in the Nordic countries, and especially at

653
00:36:45,870 --> 00:36:48,910
Speaker 7: their peak social democratic period in the 60s and 70s

654
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 7: and 80s, were really created because of social democracy. So

655
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 7: it often becomes a chicken or the egg question. Like

656
00:36:57,500 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 7: in the 1920s, Sweden was considered one of the most

657
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 7: violent and unequal places in Europe. They didn't even really

658
00:37:05,580 --> 00:37:12,379
Speaker 7: have universal suffrage, universal male suffrage until the 1920s. And

659
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 7: there was a massive workers' movement that was really pissed

660
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 7: off about that and a million other things.

661
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,500
Speaker 1: They would engage in really violent strikes.

662
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 7: And it was not the sort of harmonious vision that

663
00:37:24,060 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 7: we have now of some of these states. In Finland,

664
00:37:27,580 --> 00:37:31,060
Speaker 7: you had a country that fought an actual civil war

665
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,529
Speaker 7: in the 1910s. It was extremely unstable. It was a

666
00:37:35,570 --> 00:37:38,410
Speaker 7: country that does have a large linguistic divide that was

667
00:37:38,450 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 7: especially prominent back then between Finnish speakers and Swedish speakers,

668
00:37:43,620 --> 00:37:48,340
Speaker 7: languages that are like actually not related, you know, remotely

669
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,959
Speaker 7: at all. So by comparison, I actually do think that

670
00:37:54,239 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 7: there is a very consistently like American culture for both

671
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:04,260
Speaker 7: the good and bad. We take immigrants within five years,

672
00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:07,990
Speaker 7: they're all taking out like car loans and Ford F-150s. Like,

673
00:38:09,310 --> 00:38:12,190
Speaker 7: the idea that we live in a society with not

674
00:38:12,250 --> 00:38:16,530
Speaker 7: a lot of commonality or social trust is totally wrong.

675
00:38:16,570 --> 00:38:18,590
Speaker 7: And even in parts of the country or in areas

676
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,980
Speaker 7: where there's still, you could say there's lots of persistent

677
00:38:21,020 --> 00:38:25,380
Speaker 7: racism in this country. But the level of like social

678
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,700
Speaker 7: integration that you have today in like the American South

679
00:38:28,739 --> 00:38:34,859
Speaker 7: between black Americans and white people are very much like

680
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,350
Speaker 7: radically different than what it was even, you know, 30,

681
00:38:38,350 --> 00:38:41,930
Speaker 7: 40 years ago. So I think sometimes people are overstating

682
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,969
Speaker 7: to what extent Americans like have shown a unwillingness to

683
00:38:47,050 --> 00:38:50,690
Speaker 7: unite around, you know, their politics.

684
00:38:51,610 --> 00:38:56,060
Speaker 2: So let's talk about... Our mayor. This has been the

685
00:38:56,140 --> 00:38:59,219
Speaker 2: clearest example in my mind of like someone who has

686
00:38:59,260 --> 00:39:02,910
Speaker 2: gotten in there and been like, here's some democratic socialist

687
00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:06,910
Speaker 2: programs that I would like to enact and sort of

688
00:39:07,010 --> 00:39:11,020
Speaker 2: been able to transmit pretty well. what they are. I

689
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,460
Speaker 2: know you have a relationship with the mayor. Can you

690
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,950
Speaker 2: talk us through sort of what the thinking there was?

691
00:39:18,010 --> 00:39:21,710
Speaker 2: Because like, for example, Bill de Blasio, who really no

692
00:39:21,830 --> 00:39:25,629
Speaker 2: one liked, did do some of these programs, you know,

693
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:28,669
Speaker 2: did try to make forays into these programs, but was

694
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:31,930
Speaker 2: unable to message that. in the sort of way that made,

695
00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:35,620
Speaker 2: that I think sort of threaded the needle between these

696
00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: new ideas and the programs.

697
00:39:38,540 --> 00:39:40,300
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I was one of the few Bill

698
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 7: de Blasio apologists, and it was very tough, you know?

699
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: It was almost like he would.

700
00:39:47,710 --> 00:39:50,930
Speaker 1: Whatever. We shouldn't talk about Bill. He's an enigma.

701
00:39:51,610 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: I have been on television with him pretty recently and

702
00:39:54,930 --> 00:39:58,580
Speaker 2: and enjoyed the experience, even though he is too tall.

703
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,940
Speaker 2: But you do look back on that mayoral ship and

704
00:40:02,060 --> 00:40:05,819
Speaker 2: see a person who really was unable to connect with

705
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,259
Speaker 2: the voting base, despite doing a lot of the popular things.

706
00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:10,339
Speaker 1: Programs.

707
00:40:10,580 --> 00:40:13,060
Speaker 7: But that, you know, it would have done even more

708
00:40:13,260 --> 00:40:15,779
Speaker 7: if like, it turned out that Eliot Spitzer wasn't such

709
00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:20,020
Speaker 7: a creep. And we had Eliot Spitzer de Blasio partnership

710
00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:24,260
Speaker 7: might have gotten us social democracy in in New York state.

711
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,330
Speaker 7: But yeah, I obviously the expansion of universal, you know,

712
00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:30,090
Speaker 7: pre K was really the biggest one of the biggest

713
00:40:30,110 --> 00:40:33,950
Speaker 7: just advances in the American welfare state and in modern

714
00:40:34,190 --> 00:40:37,459
Speaker 7: modern history. So he at least gets credit for that

715
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 7: and also for battling with Cuomo, you know, early on.

716
00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 7: But with Zoran, I mean, initially when he was running,

717
00:40:47,580 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 7: my thinking was, hey, why not? Let's have a socialist run.

718
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:54,970
Speaker 7: Zoran's super charismatic. People will like him. maybe he'll pull 5%, 10%,

719
00:40:54,969 --> 00:40:57,609
Speaker 7: which is, by the way, it sounds like pessimistic now,

720
00:40:57,650 --> 00:40:59,150
Speaker 7: but I think it was more on the bullish side

721
00:40:59,390 --> 00:40:59,990
Speaker 7: than most people.

722
00:41:00,010 --> 00:41:03,460
Speaker 2: He was pulling 1%. When you said, when you probably

723
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 2: had that idea, he was pulling 1%, 2%, right?

724
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,219
Speaker 7: Yeah, my thinking was like, all right, and we'll just

725
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 7: do rank choice and hopefully we'll end up with Bradlander

726
00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 7: or something, someone like that. But on his actual policy demands,

727
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 7: when I looked at.

728
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:27,069
Speaker 1: Them, okay, the pilot... grocery store program. Free child care,

729
00:41:27,090 --> 00:41:29,270
Speaker 1: I think, is a pretty straightforwardly good policy.

730
00:41:29,610 --> 00:41:33,620
Speaker 2: And it exists in New Mexico. I mean, there are

731
00:41:33,660 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: places where it's happening now, too.

732
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: Freeze the rent and free buses.

733
00:41:37,460 --> 00:41:40,460
Speaker 7: At a policy level, I actually had objections to all

734
00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 7: those things, even as someone who shares all of Zoran's

735
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 7: normative commitments.

736
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,529
Speaker 1: With free buses, it was like, okay, yes, but service

737
00:41:48,590 --> 00:41:50,089
Speaker 1: is deteriorating. So wouldn't we.

738
00:41:50,070 --> 00:41:54,730
Speaker 7: Rather have that 600, $ 700 million improving service or back then,

739
00:41:54,750 --> 00:41:58,230
Speaker 7: you know, interest rates were lower than they are now by.

740
00:41:58,110 --> 00:41:58,529
Speaker 1: A little bit.

741
00:41:58,550 --> 00:42:03,210
Speaker 7: So couldn't that like service $ 30 billion worth of improvements

742
00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:05,330
Speaker 7: and so on. Uh, that was, that was one of

743
00:42:05,370 --> 00:42:08,690
Speaker 7: my objections. Another one of my objections was freeze the rent.

744
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:11,950
Speaker 7: Of course, like, okay, that benefits a pocket of, of,

745
00:42:12,190 --> 00:42:15,050
Speaker 7: of people, an important sizable group of people. but it

746
00:42:15,090 --> 00:42:20,069
Speaker 7: doesn't resolve the overall problem with the grocery stores. You know,

747
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:23,050
Speaker 7: five pilot stores are not going to really have a

748
00:42:23,070 --> 00:42:24,210
Speaker 7: meaningful impact on prices.

749
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:26,050
Speaker 1: So I had all these policy objections.

750
00:42:26,110 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 7: And in a sense, even as someone from the Marxist

751
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 7: socialist left, I was basically giving the liberal objections or,

752
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 7: you know, center left objections to Zoran's policies. But at

753
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:43,069
Speaker 7: a political level, those demands were transformative. He's managed to

754
00:42:43,130 --> 00:42:46,430
Speaker 7: take the energy from that political mobilization and his own

755
00:42:46,489 --> 00:42:50,590
Speaker 7: communicative ability, the narrative that he was creating about New York,

756
00:42:50,890 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 7: about making the race about affordability instead of about experience

757
00:42:57,219 --> 00:43:00,140
Speaker 7: or crime or all these other things that seem plain

758
00:43:00,180 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 7: to Cuomo's hand. He was able to now back it

759
00:43:04,020 --> 00:43:06,460
Speaker 7: up with real policies. He's been able to say, freeze

760
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:10,490
Speaker 7: the rent and support tenants, but also construct more housing,

761
00:43:10,610 --> 00:43:14,260
Speaker 7: including public housing, but also private housing. He has been

762
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 7: able to take an argument that he still has in

763
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 7: one with the MTA around free buses and turn it

764
00:43:19,780 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 7: into the expansion of new transit plans and a broader

765
00:43:24,060 --> 00:43:26,660
Speaker 7: sense of like, yes, this is our city. And even

766
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,779
Speaker 7: if we do end up having to pay a user

767
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,020
Speaker 7: fee before we use public transit, it is public and

768
00:43:32,060 --> 00:43:36,649
Speaker 7: it should be, you know, fast and accessible and so on.

769
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:39,110
Speaker 7: And all these points I think he was able to

770
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:42,730
Speaker 7: back up this sort of narrative that he was saying

771
00:43:43,210 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 7: with concrete policies. And, you know, just a couple days ago,

772
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 7: not to not to date the podcast too much, Obama

773
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:54,419
Speaker 7: was pilloried, I think, wrongly by the left for saying that,

774
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 7: you know, Democrats have focused a lot on like policies.

775
00:43:58,610 --> 00:44:00,810
Speaker 7: And like, I mean, he framed it a little poorly,

776
00:44:00,830 --> 00:44:04,310
Speaker 7: in my opinion, like material gains, instead of telling people

777
00:44:04,370 --> 00:44:07,569
Speaker 7: stories and narratives. And I actually think there's a lot

778
00:44:07,610 --> 00:44:10,790
Speaker 7: of truth to that. Like people want to see themselves

779
00:44:11,050 --> 00:44:14,489
Speaker 7: in your vision. And Trump obviously had a little bit

780
00:44:14,530 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 7: of that in 2016 before he decided to just lean

781
00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:22,660
Speaker 7: into 100% crazy. And Zoran obviously had it in his

782
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 7: election too. I think a lot of people saw themselves

783
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 7: in his narrative.

784
00:44:26,610 --> 00:44:30,190
Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that that was something that Obama

785
00:44:30,210 --> 00:44:31,370
Speaker 2: really struggled with.

786
00:44:31,450 --> 00:44:31,689
Speaker 1: Right.

787
00:44:31,730 --> 00:44:34,330
Speaker 2: Being I mean, he was a very gifted orator, but

788
00:44:34,450 --> 00:44:39,089
Speaker 2: ultimately he went in there and did policy. And that

789
00:44:39,140 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: was something Biden really struggled with, too.

790
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 7: Right.

791
00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: Like.

792
00:44:42,450 --> 00:44:47,810
Speaker 2: Inability to transmit the policy to voters, right? Chips and science,

793
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,860
Speaker 2: that's an amazing piece of policy. Nobody ever, child tax credit?

794
00:44:52,980 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: I mean, hard to think of a better piece of policy.

795
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:58,460
Speaker 2: I don't know if you, how you feel about the

796
00:44:58,480 --> 00:44:59,219
Speaker 2: child tax credit.

797
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,390
Speaker 7: But I- No, no, I'm in favor of that. I

798
00:45:02,410 --> 00:45:05,469
Speaker 7: think Clinton was able to sell things like that with

799
00:45:05,510 --> 00:45:08,310
Speaker 7: a narrative. I think Biden, I mean, he was just

800
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:11,969
Speaker 7: unable to communicate, but I would agree that at domestic level,

801
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:15,790
Speaker 7: like we were gaining hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs

802
00:45:15,950 --> 00:45:19,010
Speaker 7: at a time when the rest of the capitalist world,

803
00:45:19,050 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 7: places like Germany were losing hundreds of thousands of jobs,

804
00:45:22,820 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 7: but he was unable to explain to people what he

805
00:45:25,420 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 7: was doing and how they fit in. Whereas Trump will

806
00:45:28,460 --> 00:45:31,940
Speaker 7: oversee the, the loss of manufacturing jobs, but stand in

807
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,750
Speaker 7: front of a new factory that's being created and kind

808
00:45:34,770 --> 00:45:38,070
Speaker 7: of really bill it as, as you know, something special.

809
00:45:39,210 --> 00:45:41,820
Speaker 1: Um, but, uh, But.

810
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: Actually, Zorian has been pretty good transmitting policy wins and

811
00:45:47,940 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 2: explaining things in ways that voters get in a way

812
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,469
Speaker 2: that I have not seen a Democratic politician do in

813
00:45:54,489 --> 00:45:57,610
Speaker 2: a long, long time. Why and how?

814
00:45:58,650 --> 00:46:03,290
Speaker 7: Well, I think for one, actually having the ideology of

815
00:46:03,330 --> 00:46:06,770
Speaker 7: being a Democratic socialist, I think, has been to his benefit.

816
00:46:07,630 --> 00:46:10,029
Speaker 7: So in a rough sense, this is going to make

817
00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:15,330
Speaker 7: it sound make me sound like I'm dogmatic, but it

818
00:46:15,410 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 7: is useful to be able to walk into a room

819
00:46:19,140 --> 00:46:22,820
Speaker 7: or a situation and know the broad truth of the matter.

820
00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:28,140
Speaker 7: Know the capital T truth that working class people are

821
00:46:28,180 --> 00:46:30,370
Speaker 7: trying to survive and they're creating a lot of the

822
00:46:30,410 --> 00:46:33,009
Speaker 7: value of a society and they're not getting a lot

823
00:46:33,070 --> 00:46:36,190
Speaker 7: back and they have less say compared to the powerful

824
00:46:36,210 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 7: and the rich and people who control the jobs and Um,

825
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,700
Speaker 7: you know, how I use money to influence our politics.

826
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,900
Speaker 7: Then obviously at the policy level, it's more complicated because

827
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 7: if you scare away the people who are producing employment, um,

828
00:46:52,340 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 7: you're going to end up also hurting the working class people.

829
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,259
Speaker 7: You know, it's better to have rich people in the

830
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 7: city conspicuously spending. There's, there's lots of like, uh, knockdown

831
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,660
Speaker 7: effects from their consumption. I'd rather them be here than

832
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,049
Speaker 7: take all the FinTech jobs, move them to Texas. So

833
00:47:06,110 --> 00:47:09,300
Speaker 7: he getting all the policy complexity. But I think starting

834
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 7: with like, OK, I'm on the side of working people

835
00:47:12,180 --> 00:47:14,140
Speaker 7: and I'm going to articulate to people that I'm on

836
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,549
Speaker 7: their side. I then get into the nitty gritty of

837
00:47:16,610 --> 00:47:19,630
Speaker 7: governance after that. I think there's a difference between that

838
00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:24,470
Speaker 7: and being an ordinary liberal who potentially walk into that

839
00:47:24,510 --> 00:47:27,299
Speaker 7: situation and say that, you know, there's a lot of good,

840
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 7: nice people here with lots of different points.

841
00:47:30,890 --> 00:47:36,140
Speaker 2: So I think that's a really important bit, which is

842
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,820
Speaker 2: that he does actually seem to really believe what he's doing,

843
00:47:40,219 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 2: which is almost completely without precedent. But it is also

844
00:47:46,860 --> 00:47:52,830
Speaker 2: much harder to alienate very rich people. I mean, you

845
00:47:52,870 --> 00:47:55,670
Speaker 2: can make them mad, and they are certainly very mad

846
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:59,310
Speaker 2: at Zoran, but they were mad at the beginning.

847
00:47:58,890 --> 00:48:00,980
Speaker 7: Because So I think the real risk is this, like

848
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,020
Speaker 7: I'm in favor of the, I'm in favor of actions

849
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 7: that target the rich as rich people in New York

850
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,620
Speaker 7: and that increase their income tax, for example, which is

851
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,460
Speaker 7: already obviously higher than living anywhere else. I think they

852
00:48:16,500 --> 00:48:19,450
Speaker 7: have a lot of fixed connection to New York and

853
00:48:19,469 --> 00:48:22,180
Speaker 7: there's no other place like New York. They also own

854
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,690
Speaker 7: a lot of assets in New York. So I don't

855
00:48:23,710 --> 00:48:26,750
Speaker 7: think they're going to leave, but I think we should

856
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 7: be very wary of pissing people off as people who

857
00:48:31,620 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 7: create jobs, which is only a tiny portion of these

858
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 7: rich people. But with that tax, he just happened to

859
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 7: target one of them, you know, in how we frame it.

860
00:48:40,820 --> 00:48:42,589
Speaker 7: I think that was the problem. And also the corporate

861
00:48:42,610 --> 00:48:47,489
Speaker 7: tax rate thing, I think, is very potentially problematic, in

862
00:48:47,550 --> 00:48:51,010
Speaker 7: part because obviously capital can move very easy.

863
00:48:51,469 --> 00:48:54,189
Speaker 1: Capital can move more easily than....

864
00:48:56,340 --> 00:48:58,830
Speaker 7: In a federal system like New York, it's very easy

865
00:48:58,910 --> 00:49:01,830
Speaker 7: to just have your taxes flow through New Jersey or

866
00:49:01,870 --> 00:49:05,450
Speaker 7: Delaware or somewhere else. So I'm actually more wary about

867
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:08,790
Speaker 7: attempts to raise the corporate tax rate. I'm also wary

868
00:49:08,850 --> 00:49:11,630
Speaker 7: of certain poorly designed wealth taxes. They all have to

869
00:49:11,730 --> 00:49:14,129
Speaker 7: be analyzed at the policy level. But I do think

870
00:49:14,170 --> 00:49:16,780
Speaker 7: the rich can sustain a higher you know, income tax

871
00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:17,500
Speaker 7: in the hair, you.

872
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:17,940
Speaker 3: Know, hair now.

873
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,290
Speaker 2: I also wonder, though, like a tax like the mansion

874
00:49:22,310 --> 00:49:25,490
Speaker 2: tax of one percent of sales, like why isn't that higher?

875
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,540
Speaker 2: Those are great examples. Like, that's a tax that you

876
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,990
Speaker 2: just have to pay if you're going to move, period, paragraph.

877
00:49:32,090 --> 00:49:34,650
Speaker 2: If your apartment is over a million dollars, you have

878
00:49:34,670 --> 00:49:38,290
Speaker 2: to pay. Like, that strikes me as a pretty easy

879
00:49:38,530 --> 00:49:40,370
Speaker 2: win for the city, right?

880
00:49:40,590 --> 00:49:42,170
Speaker 7: What I would imagine on that, I have no idea

881
00:49:42,190 --> 00:49:45,450
Speaker 7: in the policy debate, but I would imagine that because

882
00:49:45,530 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 7: the rate is now relatively low, I know a million,

883
00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 7: for people outside of New York, it sounds like we're

884
00:49:49,980 --> 00:49:53,170
Speaker 7: crazy people, but like, That's like a two-bedroom apartment in

885
00:49:53,210 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 7: most parts of the city. Because the rate's relatively low

886
00:49:56,340 --> 00:49:59,180
Speaker 7: at a policy level, if they raised it to 2%

887
00:49:59,180 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 7: but raised the cap to $ 2 million, maybe it generates

888
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 7: less money. I imagine there's probably a way to go

889
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,940
Speaker 7: after realtor lobbies and basically say that this extra addition,

890
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,489
Speaker 7: bumping it to two, comes out of the buyer and

891
00:50:12,530 --> 00:50:13,390
Speaker 7: seller agent.

892
00:50:13,590 --> 00:50:13,810
Speaker 2: Right.

893
00:50:14,190 --> 00:50:16,710
Speaker 7: Those lobbies are so strong and so interconnected with the

894
00:50:16,750 --> 00:50:19,730
Speaker 7: Democratic Party. It's like lawyers, real estate agents are like,

895
00:50:19,850 --> 00:50:22,390
Speaker 7: you know, part of the bread and butter of our

896
00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:22,970
Speaker 7: shared party.

897
00:50:23,410 --> 00:50:26,029
Speaker 2: So I want to ask this Democratic senator, who I

898
00:50:26,050 --> 00:50:29,460
Speaker 2: think is pretty smart, why there's no regulation when it

899
00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:30,700
Speaker 2: comes to technology.

900
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,180
Speaker 1: None, right?

901
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:36,220
Speaker 2: Facebook, nothing. I mean, like literally nothing. There is nothing.

902
00:50:37,460 --> 00:50:42,690
Speaker 2: And he said, because a lot of Democrats get money from...

903
00:50:43,550 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: tech companies, that there's like a low key grift there. Obviously,

904
00:50:48,739 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: I'm not making a comparison between the Democratic Party and

905
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:54,100
Speaker 2: what we're seeing on the Republican side, because what we're

906
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 2: seeing on the Republican side is he is a kind

907
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:02,070
Speaker 2: of catastrophic grift that no longer recognizes Democratic norms. But

908
00:51:03,030 --> 00:51:06,910
Speaker 2: that question of like of getting money out of politics

909
00:51:06,969 --> 00:51:10,589
Speaker 2: so we can see some real legislation. What are your

910
00:51:10,610 --> 00:51:11,069
Speaker 2: thoughts there?

911
00:51:12,140 --> 00:51:14,790
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's an important component.

912
00:51:15,450 --> 00:51:17,770
Speaker 7: I think when it comes to some of these issues,

913
00:51:17,850 --> 00:51:20,710
Speaker 7: like the power of the tech companies, it's always three factors.

914
00:51:20,830 --> 00:51:22,990
Speaker 1: It's one, they're lobbying dollars.

915
00:51:23,730 --> 00:51:27,570
Speaker 7: It's two, the fact that they are sources of employment

916
00:51:27,630 --> 00:51:29,450
Speaker 7: for a lot of people, a lot of districts, including

917
00:51:29,489 --> 00:51:33,930
Speaker 7: like progressives, like the Rojanas of the world are in

918
00:51:33,950 --> 00:51:36,029
Speaker 7: districts in which like it is hard to take on

919
00:51:36,070 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 7: Silicon Valley when it's actually such an important employer. Um,

920
00:51:41,020 --> 00:51:43,060
Speaker 7: but also I think there is like this ingrained, like

921
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 7: libertarian sensibility in the U S that I think has

922
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 7: like led to really adverse policy outcomes at times. I mean,

923
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,020
Speaker 7: when I, I think it's fairly common sense to have,

924
00:51:52,060 --> 00:51:56,850
Speaker 7: let's say age verification on like porn sites, you know,

925
00:51:56,930 --> 00:51:59,810
Speaker 7: I know this sounds like I'm a conservative, but like, okay,

926
00:51:59,830 --> 00:52:01,509
Speaker 7: like a 16 year old is going to figure out

927
00:52:01,550 --> 00:52:03,910
Speaker 7: how to get around it or go to another site,

928
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:07,230
Speaker 7: but like at least print some 12 or 13 year

929
00:52:07,310 --> 00:52:11,260
Speaker 7: old boys. So they don't like develop like, you know, whatever,

930
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,779
Speaker 7: you know, you know, like, I think there's like a

931
00:52:12,820 --> 00:52:15,090
Speaker 7: strong case for that. There's a strong case for not

932
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,830
Speaker 7: allowing at least gambling advertisement on TV. So you can

933
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:21,529
Speaker 7: watch a sporting event, and you're not just bombarded with

934
00:52:21,550 --> 00:52:24,830
Speaker 7: the stuff or telling companies that like, okay, even if

935
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:26,410
Speaker 7: we allow, which I don't think we should, but even

936
00:52:26,430 --> 00:52:29,109
Speaker 7: when we allow an app like calci, or some betting

937
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:31,049
Speaker 7: app on your phone, it shouldn't be allowed to send

938
00:52:31,090 --> 00:52:34,919
Speaker 7: you push notifications with offers. Like certain things like that

939
00:52:35,140 --> 00:52:39,589
Speaker 7: are are common sense, but beyond all the money that's

940
00:52:39,630 --> 00:52:42,630
Speaker 7: prevented good policies, there's also the sense of, like, people

941
00:52:42,690 --> 00:52:45,270
Speaker 7: are worried about the moral hazard of the state, which

942
00:52:45,310 --> 00:52:47,969
Speaker 7: I think in extreme instances exists. Like, I'm not for

943
00:52:47,989 --> 00:52:50,350
Speaker 7: the death penalty because of the, in part, the moral,

944
00:52:50,590 --> 00:52:52,710
Speaker 7: you know, hazard of just having the state, you know,

945
00:52:52,750 --> 00:52:57,830
Speaker 7: kill people. But the idea that, like, some, like, Pornhub

946
00:52:57,890 --> 00:53:02,660
Speaker 7: having your data is more dangerous than, like, the social

947
00:53:02,700 --> 00:53:06,870
Speaker 7: effects of, like, certain types of pornography being seen by,

948
00:53:07,210 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 7: by very young people just developing, um, to me is

949
00:53:10,860 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 7: just like, like silly. And I even hear it on,

950
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 7: on the left, um, too. It's not just a right-wing argument.

951
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

952
00:53:19,060 --> 00:53:22,299
Speaker 2: So interesting. Anyway, thank you. Thank you for coming on.

953
00:53:22,420 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: So good. Oh, I appreciate you having me on.

954
00:53:31,340 --> 00:53:32,060
Speaker 2: Rick Wilson.

955
00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:33,100
Speaker 4: Yes, ma'am.

956
00:53:33,910 --> 00:53:38,069
Speaker 2: What happens when you are a gubernatorial candidate and you

957
00:53:38,090 --> 00:53:40,450
Speaker 2: want to prove that you're a big, strong guy, but

958
00:53:40,489 --> 00:53:44,230
Speaker 2: that you also are a family man and you try

959
00:53:44,250 --> 00:53:48,589
Speaker 2: to pick up a. OK, you know what I'm talking about?

960
00:53:49,290 --> 00:53:52,830
Speaker 2: Not since Mike Dukakis was in and we love Mike

961
00:53:52,850 --> 00:53:55,609
Speaker 2: Dukakis and we love his son. We love John. John,

962
00:53:55,650 --> 00:53:59,850
Speaker 2: we love you. Was in a tank. Has a moment

963
00:54:00,170 --> 00:54:01,810
Speaker 2: so backfired for a candidate.

964
00:54:02,469 --> 00:54:02,870
Speaker 1: Tell us.

965
00:54:03,750 --> 00:54:06,710
Speaker 3: It's Vivek Wikaswami, as someone called him.

966
00:54:07,150 --> 00:54:10,089
Speaker 4: He tries to pick up his kid and drops him.

967
00:54:10,690 --> 00:54:13,819
Speaker 2: He can't. I mean, and it is the vision.

968
00:54:13,860 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 4: He can't pick up a 45-pound kid? Get the fuck

969
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:16,700
Speaker 4: out of here.

970
00:54:17,140 --> 00:54:19,900
Speaker 2: The kid is clearly too big for him to pick up.

971
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 4: But still. Still. I can't. If he loses.

972
00:54:27,090 --> 00:54:27,270
Speaker 2: You.

973
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,020
Speaker 3: Know, Kathleen Hall Jameson, the great presidential election scholar, once

974
00:54:31,060 --> 00:54:34,020
Speaker 3: wrote about Mike Dukakis and the tank, the image. And

975
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 3: she says that in campaigns, there's always an... In modern campaigns,

976
00:54:37,620 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 3: there's always an image that sticks of that campaign somewhere,

977
00:54:41,020 --> 00:54:43,739
Speaker 3: whether it's presidential or whatever. That will be the image

978
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,940
Speaker 3: that sticks for Vivek. That will be the image of

979
00:54:46,980 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 3: him that sort of sticks in people's minds like fumbling

980
00:54:50,260 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 3: his own kid.

981
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 2: It was the kind of thing... That you cannot create

982
00:54:56,890 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 2: on the trail.

983
00:54:58,340 --> 00:54:59,340
Speaker 4: And you can't spin it away.

984
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:01,109
Speaker 1: Rick Wilson.

985
00:55:02,070 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 4: See ya.

986
00:55:03,290 --> 00:55:07,690
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

987
00:55:08,070 --> 00:55:13,410
Speaker 2: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

988
00:55:13,489 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 2: minds in politics make sense of all this chaos. If

989
00:55:17,860 --> 00:55:20,940
Speaker 2: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

990
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 2: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.