1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb and we have a special treat for 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 2: you here today. Mary Roach has a new book that 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: is about to come out, Replaceable You Adventures in Human Anatomy. 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: Mary Roach is a multiple times Stuff to Blow your 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,319 Speaker 2: Mind guest. Anytime she has a new book out, we 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: always say absolutely, send us an advance copy, let me 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: get my hands on it, and we would be happy 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: to have her on the show. So once more, I'm 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 2: going to be chatting with Mary Roach again about her 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: new book, Replaceable You Adventures in Human Anatomy. It's going 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: to be released September sixteenth, twenty twenty five, and is 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: currently available for pre order. So without further ado, let's 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: jump right into the interview. Hi, Mary, welcome back to 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: the show. 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: The new book is Replaceable You, which will be released 19 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 2: September sixteenth, twenty twenty five, and it's currently available for 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: pre order. As always, it's a tremendous, insightful and humorous read, 21 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: and in many ways it feels like a natural follow 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: up to topics you've explored in previous books, especially two 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: thousand and three Stiff and twenty sixteen's Grunt. Did it 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: indeed spring in any way from topics you touched on 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 2: in previous books or was there some other sort of 26 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: out of the blue inspiration. 27 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 3: Well, I always have the human body kind of the 28 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: back of my head as a fertile area to poke 29 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 3: around in. In this case, it didn't really spring from 30 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 3: anything in a past book per se. This the idea 31 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 3: kind of came from a couple of things I encountered 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: in talking to people. I'm often my way of finding 33 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 3: a new book topic is sometimes just to reach out 34 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: to people I've met in the past and kind of 35 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 3: just bitball brainstorm and this but this one was a 36 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 3: reader wrote to me and said for your next for 37 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 3: your next book, you should write about professional football referees, 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 3: which was, you know, no disrespect, just a terrible idea 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: for me. I don't I don't watch football, I don't 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: know anything about football. And but we had a conversation 41 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: on email and she mentioned that she's an elective vamputee 42 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: and I had never heard this term, and I asked 43 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 3: her what that means. And she's talking about how she 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 3: has a kind of a dysfunctional foot. It's healthy, you know, 45 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 3: it gets blood, it's funk, it's functional, but not in 46 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 3: the way she would like it to be. And she 47 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 3: wanted it cut off and replaced with a prosthetic because 48 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 3: she would see people walking around on prosthetic feet and 49 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 3: they're running and they're hiking, and she couldn't do that stuff. 50 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 3: And so she and it was very hard for her 51 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 3: to find a surgeon willing to cut off a quote 52 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: unquote healthy foot, and that frustrated her. And it was 53 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: kind of interesting, does this sort of sense of whole, 54 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: like this bias for wholeness and this sense of are 55 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 3: we a whole entity? Are we made up of parts? 56 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 3: Can you just swap them in and out? And that 57 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: kind of led me along that path. And of course, 58 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: you know that there's lots of kind of interesting areas 59 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 3: like iron lungs and nasal mutilation and skin grafting and 60 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 3: the history of skin grafting. There's just a lot of 61 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: kind of mary roachy topics under that umbrella of replacing 62 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: bits and pieces of the human body. 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: Was there a particular chapter that kind of solidified first, 64 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: or was there some were they just sort of all 65 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: sort of come together like, what's your process when it 66 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: comes to writing a book. 67 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: I knew right off the bat there was something that 68 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: there's one thing that I definitely wanted to include. And 69 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: this is again it was a conversation. This was a 70 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: woman who works in a stem cell lab, but it 71 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: oddly had nothing to do with stem cells. She mentioned 72 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: I think I had contacted her because I'd been poking 73 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 3: around on the idea of fat as a topic a 74 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: book topic fat the substance fat, and I backed off 75 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: of that because I don't want to write about weight loss. 76 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: So she mentioned, and I don't know how this came up, 77 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 3: don't remember, but she mentioned that there was a surgeon 78 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: who had reconstructed a man's penis using his own middle finger, 79 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: and that because of the way my brain works, that 80 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 3: just you know, I'm like, oh my god, they just 81 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: cut the finger off and like attached it down there 82 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 3: and he could move his finger. And I had this very, 83 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 3: as it turned out, inaccurate impression of what that surgery was. 84 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: But I'm like, I'm going there. I'm going to see 85 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 3: this surgeon. It turned out he's in former Soviet Georgia, 86 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: and I did go there, and this story is in 87 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: the book, But I think that was one of the 88 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: first places that I went to report in one of 89 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 3: the first chapter that I wrote, so that that kind 90 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 3: of cemented things I think for me like that I 91 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 3: have to have a book that includes this. 92 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: Somehow, it reminds me a little bit of some of 93 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 2: the topics you touched on in Grunt, which made me wonder, 94 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: do you revisit what you wrote in previous books when 95 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: you cover something like adjacent to it in a later book. 96 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: And I ask in part because I know that, like 97 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: the history broadly remains the same, and the autobiographical and 98 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: personal aspects of the book remains evergreen, but the science 99 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: and the way we perceive where we are with the 100 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: science can change so rapidly in just a few years. 101 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I did. I did go back to in Grunt. 102 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: As you know, I covered the Department of Defense was 103 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: funding some work with penis transplants, in other words, taking 104 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 3: a cadaver penis and hooking it up and replacing whatever 105 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 3: remains of a man's penis who And this was you know, 106 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: during Afghanistan and Iraq, when there were lots of IEDs 107 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 3: going off and damaging not just legs but all the 108 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: way up to the pelvis so and I'd been in 109 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 3: the lab when they were doing some of the early 110 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: work for penis transplants, so I did I called that 111 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: surgeon just to see where where things at, what's going 112 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 3: on in the world of transplantation. I don't like to 113 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 3: repeat things that I've covered before. I mean, I was 114 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: definitely not going to include that project or kind of 115 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: go back and follow up on that patient or anything 116 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 3: like that. So I do make use of the people 117 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: that I've met and sort of pick their brains and 118 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: get ideas from them, and also referrals to people that 119 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: they know. So I do that, but not I don't 120 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: really completely step back into the setting of a previous book. 121 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: So the way that we perceive the current trajectory of 122 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 2: science is one of the really fascinating subjects in the 123 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: new book. In numerous places. I was really floored by 124 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: an early discussion in the book about how people viewed 125 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: the promise of denture technology in the forties, fifties, and sixties. 126 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: This was just really mind blowing for making. Can you 127 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: explain this one for us? 128 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah, the history of dentures and we're talking here 129 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: about not what goes on today, which is implants set 130 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,119 Speaker 3: into the bone and then a plate attached to those 131 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: talking more about a whole set of teeth that's either 132 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: glued or in some cases suspended through piercings. That was unbelievable. 133 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 3: A technology that at its best only gave you about 134 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 3: twenty five percent of your chewing capacity. It was never 135 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,679 Speaker 3: a good solution. But what amazed me was this trend 136 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 3: in the period of time that you're talking about for 137 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: having all of one's teeth pulled at once and getting 138 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: fitted with dentures. And it was this sense of like, 139 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 3: I'll have a marvelous, healthy, white smile, and it was 140 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 3: done as a gift for brides. It called sort of 141 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: matrimonial dentures, I think was the term and the people 142 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: and I had thought of it as just this is 143 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: something that's done in poor communities or people who don't 144 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: have access to good dental care, but in fact it 145 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 3: was just kind of a trend. And I could only 146 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: explain it to myself by thinking people were just assuming 147 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: it's new and it's man made, and it's got to 148 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 3: be better. I mean, Paul McCartney, his dad told him 149 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: you should when he turned twenty one, he should go 150 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 3: get all his teeth removed and replaced with dentures and 151 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 3: people and there was this reddit thread. It's no longer 152 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: up for some reason, but this reddit thread where someone 153 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 3: mentioned it, and there are a thousand replies people saying 154 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: my grand my parent or grandparent, usually a grandparent had 155 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: this done and ended up regretting it. Always had difficulty 156 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: with the dentures, but it was a It was to 157 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: me kind of a good way to open the book 158 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 3: because it was this interest. It's interesting there's this tendency 159 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 3: among humans, particularly you know, starting in the nineteen hundreds 160 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 3: and onward, to just assume if it's if it's technical 161 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 3: and new, it must be better, and to kind of 162 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: rush headlong into that technology without really considering how will 163 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 3: it stack up against what I've got going. My dad 164 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 3: lost all of his back teeth he had he had 165 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 3: a few front teeth in the front left and he 166 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 3: was much older, sixty five when I was born. But anyway, 167 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: he never got dentures. He never went. He didn't go. 168 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 3: I don't know if he didn't trust dentists. He was British. 169 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: I don't know if that had anything to two in it, 170 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 3: but he u but he managed just fine using his 171 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 3: front teeth to chew, and I think, you know, probably 172 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: that worked better than had he gotten a couple of 173 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 3: those plates that are you know, glued with polygrip and 174 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: got stuff under them. It just sounded it sounded, you know, 175 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 3: like not a great technology, and he did find it. 176 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 3: You know, it was a little weird to watch him 177 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 3: chew his lamb chops, but it seemed to work. 178 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, It's just it just it was so foreign to 179 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: imagine like this level of excitement and trust and not 180 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 2: only where the technology was going, but where it presently was. 181 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: Because I can I can imagine, I can sort of 182 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: put myselves in the shoes of imagining someone saying, Okay, 183 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: well I don't have to worry as much about taking 184 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 2: care of my teeth because the technology is coming along 185 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: really well and it'll you know, and sort of like 186 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: putting that off on your future self. But to go 187 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: ahead and have it now, to go ahead and get 188 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: the dentures that you know at an early age, Yeah, 189 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: it's hard to like, I can't think of anything, and 190 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: surely there's something in our world that's that serves as 191 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: an analogy for that, But I'm grasping at straws to 192 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: think of it. 193 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, what's going on now with intraocular lenses for 194 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 3: cat That's a technology that's for decades been used for 195 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 3: cataract patients in particular, where there's this opacification of the 196 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: lens and you just can't focus and things that you 197 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 3: lose color, and the technology is and the surgical procedure 198 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: has come so far that there are now people who 199 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 3: are in their twenties who just happen to be very 200 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: very near sighted who want to have it done. There's 201 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 3: a term for that that I've forgotten. I think that's 202 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 3: an example, and that's an example where if everything goes well, 203 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: which it usually does, it's not analogous to the dentures 204 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 3: in that I think folks would who have that done. 205 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 3: It can be kind of an amazing replacement. You don't 206 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 3: have accommodation, which is the eyes amazing ability to go 207 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 3: from far away to near focus just automatically, you know, 208 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: sort of an built in auto focus. So that's not 209 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 3: something that exists yet, So you are accepting a compromise 210 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: in that sense. But for somebody who's who's very very 211 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 3: near sighted or I suppose far sighted, it's an appealing option, 212 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: you know, to not have to think about glasses, contact lenses, 213 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: et cetera. And it's I think, you know, even compared 214 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 3: to lasik, which can have after effects that are unappealing. 215 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 3: But yeah, but to have all one's teeth pulled at 216 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 3: once and there. And I think also people people had 217 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 3: a sense of people don't like to go to the dentists. 218 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 3: They don't like dental procedures. So in areas where dental 219 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: care was lacking or wasn't close by, they thought, let's 220 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 3: just get it over with and I'll never have to 221 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: go back to a dentist, and I'll have this, you know, 222 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: perfect straight smile, I don't have to get fillings, etc. 223 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 3: But in fact, the dentures, you know, the gums start 224 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: to receid so that you would have to go back 225 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 3: and get refitted. So it really wasn't you didn't even 226 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 3: deliver that right now. 227 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: Later in the book, when you're discussing skin graphs and xenographs, 228 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: the skin graphs based on the tissue from other species, 229 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: you hit on something similar about how certain headlines about 230 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 2: breakthroughs with xenographs might be considered an unnecessary distraction by 231 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: some in the industry, certainly on the research end. Of things. 232 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: But do you think these various headlines sometimes and you know, 233 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: advancements sometimes help implant the idea that the research is 234 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: much further along than it actually is. 235 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely, press press releases in particular, and a 236 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 3: lot of times newspapers just take information from press releases 237 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 3: without doing additional reporting. So in that sense, yeah, makes 238 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 3: its way into the news. Absolutely. I think that you know, 239 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: you see a headline like lab grown penises are on 240 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: the horizon, which was an actual press release headline from 241 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 3: some years back, and I don't know, the penises seemed 242 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: to still be out on the distant horizon. You know, 243 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 3: you follow up with these things a few years later, 244 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: and the company's gone out of business, the researcher has 245 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 3: stopped researching that, and you know, and I think it's 246 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 3: a disservice to the public because you know, I have 247 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 3: a friend who have who has Parkinson's, and he people 248 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 3: are always sending him. Look, I saw this, I saw 249 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 3: this press release online. I heard about this technique. I 250 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 3: heard about same with the woman who the elective amputee said. 251 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 3: I cannot tell you the number of times my friends 252 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: have sent me a link to a story that says 253 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 3: twenty dollars. You can buioprint and prosthetic foot. You'll never 254 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: have to see prosthetists again. And it's cheap. And she's like, 255 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 3: that's never going to happen, and I want them to stop, 256 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: and they mean, well, but stop sending me this stuff 257 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: because there's so much of it out there. 258 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: And I suppose that feeds into one of the central 259 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: ideas of the book, right that the human body isn't 260 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: really replaceable, no matter how far the science has come. 261 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: Exactly. It's it's you're talking about, you know, two hundred 262 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: or so years of medical science competing with millions of 263 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 3: years of evolutionary tinkering, and and that's a you know, 264 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: that's that's tough to compete with, and it's tough to match. 265 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: So it's not it's not that the researchers and scientists 266 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 3: aren't doing a good job. They're doing amazing things. It's 267 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 3: just a really the human body is just infinitely complex 268 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: in ways that we don't even yet understand. So of 269 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: course it's going to take a long time. 270 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you cover when you're talking about various transplants, 271 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: the unforeseen consequences like the I believe it was the 272 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: pig's heart that wasn't supposed to grow but then grew 273 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: inside the recipient's chest. 274 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's and there's also there's there's 275 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: just connections between you know, we think of ourselves as 276 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 3: made up of parts and the parts can you know, 277 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: you can replace parts, that's what you do on a car. 278 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: But there are these kind of invisible links between you know, 279 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: the brain and the organs, and the organs themselves and 280 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 3: the There's just a lot going on that is difficult 281 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: to anticipate when you talk about creating something to replace 282 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 3: an individual piece, you know, trying to incorporate that piece 283 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 3: into a whole system. I mean, we are a massively 284 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 3: complex system, so it's it's quite a challenge. 285 00:16:51,480 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 286 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: Now, the history of our attempts to replace lost limbs, organs, 287 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: and tissues, this is as captivating and sometimes more nauseating, 288 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: certainly than the current and bleeding edge research into such replacements. 289 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 2: And you can discuss a lot of this in the book. 290 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 2: So I want to start with the history here. What 291 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 2: was your favorite I can't believe they were trying to 292 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: do blank back in such and such year, tidbit. 293 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 3: I think the I can't believe reaction had to do 294 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 3: with the crafting of a vagina from the intestine, and 295 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 3: that is a technique that is sometimes done with trans women. 296 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 3: If there's been problems with the more standard procedure, you 297 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: can in fact bring a section of the intestine down 298 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 3: and use it and it works surprisingly well. And it 299 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 3: isn't it's it isn't new. In the eighteen hundreds, there 300 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 3: were surgeons who were doing this, but it's it's for 301 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 3: cancer patients and the set that there was a quote 302 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 3: I wish I had it in front of me, but 303 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 3: the surgeons were all conferring, like, should we do this? 304 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 3: It's kind of risky. I don't know, it hasn't been done, 305 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: but they said, if the home life and matrimonial harmony 306 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 3: depends on it, it is mandatory. I'm like, hello, maybe 307 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 3: want to check with that woman before you do that. Yeah, 308 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 3: But it's an it's a I spent some time with 309 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 3: the surgeon who who from time to time does that technique, 310 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 3: and it is a kind of an incredible I just 311 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: I just love the idea of like recruiting parts of 312 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 3: the body that evolved for one thing and using them 313 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: for something else. And the body is surprisingly adaptable, you know, agreeable, like, yeah, 314 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 3: I can be a vagina. I think I can do that, 315 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 3: you know, moist tubular secretion. Yeah, I got it. 316 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: And then of course early on in the book you 317 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 2: walk us through the history of just replacing the nose, 318 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,479 Speaker 2: and there's so many interesting details there with like the 319 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 2: marching of the skin up from the forearm and so forth. 320 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, and this goes back to like fifteen 321 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 3: hundred BC. This is a technique because nasal mutilation was 322 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: a pretty common you know, globally and throughout history. If 323 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: to punish a group of people or an individual, to 324 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 3: cut off the nose was popular because not only is 325 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: it humiliating and awful for the person, but it serves 326 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: as a kind of a deterrent, like, look, what will 327 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 3: happen to you if you steal, if you're supporting the 328 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 3: wrong leader, whatever whatever it is. So there was this 329 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 3: demand for rebuilding the nose, and over the course of 330 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 3: time some very ingenious techniques, you know, taking a piece 331 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 3: of the forehead or a piece of the cheek, taking 332 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 3: that skin, loosening it, leaving it attached so it still 333 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 3: has a blood supply, and then turning it over and 334 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 3: putting it in place on what's left of the nose 335 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 3: and building a nose that way, and that and the 336 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 3: fact that I mean plastic, that's the dawn of plastic 337 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 3: surgery right there. That's really where it began with the nose. 338 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 3: And then of course that leaves scarring, or it can 339 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: leave you know, if you put a graft on the 340 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: place where you took the skin. Now you've got skin 341 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 3: that doesn't match. You know, it's not seamless. So they 342 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 3: started using the underside of the arm the fifteen hundreds 343 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 3: in Italy, just having you know, and then then you 344 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: of course to have the arm underside of the arm 345 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 3: close to the nose, you had to have the arm 346 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: up over the head with a harness. I mean, it 347 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: was quite an elaborate setup to for a few weeks 348 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 3: to keep that piece of the underside of the upper 349 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: arm attached to the nose. He kind of looked like 350 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: he was you know, I've seen a etching of that 351 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: and the guy looks like he's checking for bo kind 352 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 3: of a you know, head close to the underarm pose. 353 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 3: But just amazing the ingenuity that went into it. And 354 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 3: then once you know, you had more options with different 355 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 3: materials and adhesives. There were noses made of celluloid, noses 356 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 3: made of brass or other metal composits. There were noses 357 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 3: hanging off glasses frames, kind of a grouseiow Marx thing 358 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 3: because they even had a little mustache to cover up 359 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 3: the boundary below the lower boundary, So it was kind 360 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 3: of a medical Gaucho Marx glasses. 361 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: The flammable celluloid nose that you mentioned that was rather 362 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: horrifying to imagine. 363 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 3: Well, yes, it could only carry the Groucho Marx comparison, 364 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: so far, you definitely not want the cigar. 365 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: One example you brought up that really floored me too 366 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 2: was the idea of polyester hair implants. I no idea 367 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 2: this was ever a thing. 368 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 3: Oh me, neither me neither, Thank you for asking. Nobody 369 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 3: has asked about that, but there was in the nineteen seventies. 370 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 3: It was possible if you were losing hair, either you know, 371 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 3: a bald spot or just sort of all over. 372 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: You could have. 373 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 3: Essentially doll hair inserted with a kind of surgical crochet 374 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 3: hook kind of hooked into the scalp. And it was 375 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 3: a terrible idea for a number of reasons. First of all, 376 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 3: if you start to go gray. It's not going to 377 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 3: go gray. You can't style it the same way you 378 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: can style it. You can barely style it at all, 379 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 3: not to mention infections and all these horrible kind of 380 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 3: lumps that would appear, and it was it's illegal now, 381 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 3: but for a while, I think in Turkey you could 382 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 3: still get it done and you had to space them 383 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 3: out such that you kind of looked like a doll, 384 00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: you know, how dolls have? You know? 385 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: The barb. 386 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 3: Far apart. It didn't look natural, it looked like dull hair, 387 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 3: but it was something and it was not cheap. 388 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, Now I have to ask of which of 389 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: the following did you find more horrifying, goat milk transfusions 390 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 2: or goat milk based breast implants. I was surprised at 391 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: how how many different uses we had for goat and 392 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: cow milk. 393 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, goat milk in particularly, I guess because there's less 394 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 3: of a market for drinking goat milk. They're like, what 395 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 3: can we do with this, but goat milk. I think 396 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 3: that the transfusions shocked me more partly, but they shocked me, 397 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 3: But on the other hand, it's kind of you know, 398 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 3: they often worked pretty well if someone was hemorrhaging and 399 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 3: losing a lot of blood, and you needed to keep 400 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 3: the volume up. Obviously you don't have red blood cells 401 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 3: to carry oxygen. But if what you're talking about is 402 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 3: preventing somebody going into what is it hypovolemic like shock 403 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 3: from just not enough blood, the blood vessels are going 404 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 3: to collapse, and you want to get something in there. 405 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 3: I mean, you could use saline. That's you know, what 406 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 3: is done now. But so goat milk was kind of that. 407 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 3: Without knowing why, I think that the medical folks had 408 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: stumbled on and they were talking eighteen seventy eight, I 409 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 3: think it was, and there's kind of a flurry of 410 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 3: journal articles about goat milk and cow milk transfusions. They 411 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 3: assumed there was something in the milk that was a benefit, 412 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 3: but in fact it was just getting something in there 413 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 3: to keep the blood pressure up. But they were talking. 414 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: They would talk about, you know, a cow was brought 415 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 3: into the room because it was done. You know, they 416 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 3: had to be fresh and had to be fresh from 417 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 3: the teeth. They weren't storing the milk. It was so there. 418 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: You know, there was this wonderfully strange couple of years 419 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 3: in medical history where cows and goats are being brought 420 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 3: into the surgical facilities or the patient home, and people 421 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: are being transfused, and and the the articles were tremendously 422 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 3: enthusiastic in the medical journals, and you know, mainstream medical journals, 423 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 3: saying I would be remiss if I did not predict 424 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 3: great things for goat milk transfusions in the future. 425 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you. It was an article in the 426 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: New York Times, the site that was hyping it up. 427 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh And in terms of oh, 428 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 3: you know, breast implants, what wasn't tried. You know, it 429 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 3: was just anything kind of remotely injectable. Some surgeon tried 430 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 3: putting it in there. So that's just one of many 431 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 3: unwise decisions that were made for the goal of making 432 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 3: tits bigger. 433 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: Now, I want to come back around to the field 434 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 2: work for this particular book. You mentioned a little bit 435 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: about this already, but let's see, you traveled to China 436 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: and Mongolia, as well as some rather challenging domestic locations 437 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: as well. 438 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: I did, Oh, wherever I can. Whenever I have a 439 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 3: chance to go somewhere interesting, I jump on it, you know. 440 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: I mean, my last book was about human wildlife conflict, 441 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 3: and I found a way to go to the Vatican 442 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 3: for that one. That's right, there's no need to go 443 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 3: to the Vatican for a book about human wildlife conflict. 444 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 3: But I always enjoy setting a chapter somewhere I know 445 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: nothing about. So in this case, yeah, Mongolia. There's no 446 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: need for a Cataract chapter to go to Mongolia, but 447 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: I chose to and it was incredibly interesting. And I 448 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 3: was in China the China trip. In that case, both 449 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 3: of the companies here that create pigs for zeno transplantation, 450 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 3: in other words, pigs that are genetically edited such that 451 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 3: their organs don't create as intense a rejection in the 452 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 3: human body. There are two companies here that have pig 453 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 3: farms that and I wanted to visit one of the 454 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 3: pig farms pig facilities, I should say, the designated pathogen 455 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 3: free facility, and they both very politely said no. So 456 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 3: I contacted someone who's worked on zeno transplantation for thirty 457 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 3: years and who happens to be in Sichuan, China, Chengdu, 458 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 3: and they were very welcoming and they said, come on over, 459 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 3: you're welcome to visit the facility. As it turned out, 460 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 3: I couldn't go inside a facility. I could get close 461 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 3: to it and watch it from the control room, because 462 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 3: of course I'm a walking pile of bacteria and other 463 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: horrible things that if you have a designated pathoge and 464 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 3: free facility, nobody comes in. I mean, the staff are 465 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 3: quarantined and they stay there for three months. So I 466 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: didn't actually get to go in, but I got close. 467 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 3: But in that case, the travel was warranted by my 468 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 3: inability to get access here, and that was a challenge 469 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 3: with this book. Biotech companies are notoriously wary of having outsiders, journalists, 470 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 3: writers come in for various reasons. They have things that 471 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 3: are secret that they don't want to risk somebody getting 472 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 3: access to. And they also just I mean that there's 473 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: a a process that a lot about tech tech firms, 474 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 3: public relations firms adhere to, which is just to say, 475 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 3: here's a press kit, here's a video, this is what 476 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 3: we're going to share with you. Take it or leave it, 477 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 3: And that's not what you know. I as a reporter 478 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 3: grew up with a lot more openness, like, yes, you 479 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: can come here and spend a couple of days and 480 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 3: we'll show you around and it's not like that anymore. 481 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 3: So if I have to go to China, I go 482 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: to China. So sometimes that's what's at play. 483 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 2: Because that's one of the great things about all your 484 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: books is they're not just about the subject. They're about 485 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 2: the places, and they're about the people. It's about you 486 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: getting out in the field and visiting places and meeting people, 487 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: and we get to know them through your write. 488 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 3: Right exactly, I can't do what I do without going somewhere. 489 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 3: If if I can't get in anywhere, I just don't 490 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 3: do that chapter. You know, there have been books where 491 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 3: I should have included a topic because it was relevant 492 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 3: and important. I'm thinking of packing from Mars. I don't 493 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 3: have a specific chapter devoted to radiation. Cosmic radiation and 494 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 3: solar radiation are two pretty significant physical challenges when you 495 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 3: talk about living off planet. I couldn't find a setting 496 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 3: for it. I couldn't find there. You know, there was 497 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: a Brookhaven was doing something with irradiating some animals. I'm like, 498 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 3: I don't want it. That's not the scene that I want. 499 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: So I didn't do a chapter. And and but if 500 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 3: you take that to its endpoint, I just can't do books. 501 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 3: If people because people, and I understand that, like my 502 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 3: agent said, kind of don't blame them, Mary, do you 503 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 3: you know what's in it for them? They're not being paid, 504 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 3: there's they don't have any control over what I say, 505 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 3: what I choose to represent, how I say it, how 506 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 3: I portray them. So it's a huge in some ways, 507 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 3: a big risk to say to me, Mary Roach, Yeah, 508 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 3: come on down for a couple of days and do 509 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 3: what you want to do. 510 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: So of course, if you do mention, you know, a 511 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: particular topic or particular company in your book, they could 512 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 2: always put that on the products as featured in Mary 513 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 2: Roach's Gulp or Mary Roach is Replaceable You. 514 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 3: Yes, that is the small gift I give to them, 515 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 3: and they, by and large they take it. They take 516 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 3: it well given that they're not able to say it 517 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 3: the way they want or highlight the things that they want, 518 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 3: and I'm sure most of what they'd like to say 519 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: doesn't end up in the chapter. But it certainly is 520 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 3: exposure for a company. You know, I don't write expose 521 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 3: a's I'm not out to get anybody, but by the 522 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 3: same token, I'm not sugarcoating things or writing puff pieces. 523 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: Broadly speaking, what do you feel like you learned about 524 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: the human experience writing Replaceable You, and what do you 525 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: hope that the reader takes away from the book. 526 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 3: It's kind of an interesting mix. I want people to 527 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 3: be impressed and kind of amazed at what has been done, 528 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 3: is being done, might be done in the future, but 529 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: at the same time to understand how difficult it is 530 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 3: to make something that is a true replacement. And also 531 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 3: there's so many times where something is done in a lab, 532 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: something is created, but then you have to figure out 533 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 3: how do you get that into a body or even 534 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 3: onto a body. I spend a couple of days with 535 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 3: a biotech firm, Stems and Therapeutics, who no longer exist. 536 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 3: They were trying to grow follicles and then implant those 537 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 3: from induced pluripotent stem cells like a person's own cells 538 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: regress to plury potency, encouraged, instructed to become follicle cells, 539 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,479 Speaker 3: and then incorporated into the person's head. And I thought, Okay, 540 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: the follicle pretty simple, how hard could it be? But 541 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 3: the challenges were so interesting and so immense. I kind 542 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 3: of want people to understand why it's taking so long, 543 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: and not to be disappointed by science. I mean but 544 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 3: just to understand what a tremendous challenge it is when 545 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 3: you get down to the cellular level to create something 546 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 3: that you can incorporate into a complicated system and have 547 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 3: it work in the way you want it to work. 548 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 3: So it's just a kind of a glimpse of how 549 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 3: that's done, what's going on, what's taking so long? And 550 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 3: you know what, we could hopefully expect a couple decades 551 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: down the line, but just expect miracles, but don't expect 552 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 3: them quickly. 553 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: Well put, I'll see. Finally, you have some author appearances 554 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 2: coming up. Correct, I think you're going to do the 555 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: Decatur Book Festival, which is right down the road from me. 556 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: So where can folks see you and where can they 557 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: check out all your dates? 558 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 3: I have on Instagram author Mary Roach, there is a 559 00:33:53,520 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: visual of all of the book tour appearances and the dates. Yes, 560 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: I will be at the Decatur Book Festival. I'm looking 561 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 3: forward to that. And I remember, yeah, I remember like 562 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 3: one of the best fish tacos I ever had was Indicatur. 563 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 2: Oh nice. 564 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 3: So yeah, and Maryoach dot Net there's I think they're 565 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 3: putting that up this week, the list of where I'm 566 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 3: going everywhere. 567 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: I'm going well, Mary, thanks once more for coming on 568 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 2: the podcast. It's always a pleasure. 569 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much, Robert. I really had a 570 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 3: great time. Thank you for such a smart and insightful interview. 571 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: Thanks once more to Mary Road for taking time out 572 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 2: of her day to chat with me here again. That 573 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: book is replaceable, you Adventures in Human Anatomy. Go ahead 574 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: and pre order it now. I guarantee you you're going 575 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 2: to have a blast with it. As always will remind 576 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: you that stuff to Blow your Mind is primarily a 577 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 578 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 2: but on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to 579 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 2: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Getticks. 580 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: I did because next week is Star Trek Week. The 581 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 2: whole week is going to be Star Trek themes. That 582 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: means Star Trek core episodes, a Star Trek monster factor 583 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: most likely, and yes we will cover one of the 584 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: Star Trek motion pictures for Weird House Cinema. You'll have 585 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 2: to tune in to find out which one. Sometimes you 586 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 2: can peek ahead by going to our account at Letterbox. 587 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 2: We are Weird House on letterbox, and we have a 588 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 2: nice list of all the films we've covered over the 589 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: years and sometimes a peek ahead of what comes next. 590 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 2: And as far as social media accounts elsewhere, we'll let's see, 591 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 2: we're on Instagram, STBYM podcast, and we are also on Facebook. 592 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: We are on Twitter. We may be some other places, 593 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: but those are the well ones that I really can 594 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 2: immediately remember. So if you use any of those platforms, 595 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 2: follow us, keep up with the show. Wherever you get 596 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 2: the show, just make sure that you rate, review, and subscribe. 597 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: It helps us out in the long run. Thanks as 598 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 2: always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing this show, 599 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: and if you would like to get in touch with 600 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 2: Joe and myself, email us at contact stuff to Blow 601 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 2: your Mind dot com. 602 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Step to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 603 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 604 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.