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Speaker 4: All right, let's get to TikTok.

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Speaker 3: The Supreme Court heard oral arguments about TikTok and its

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Speaker 3: potential ban in the coming days. In the United States,

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Speaker 3: TikTok has appealed this all the way up to the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court, the United States government arguing on the side

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Speaker 3: of a TikTok ban and or a for sale TikTok,

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Speaker 3: obviously making a case against that on First Amendment grounds.

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Speaker 3: We heard a little bit from the lawyers and the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court justices themselves. Let's take a listen here, to

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Speaker 3: the Solicitor General of the United States on the case

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Speaker 3: for band.

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Speaker 5: Mister Chief Justice, and may it please the Court, the

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Speaker 5: Chinese government's control of TikTok poses a grave threat to

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Speaker 5: national security. No one disputes that the PRC seeks to

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Speaker 5: undermine US interests by amassing vast quantities of sensitive data

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Speaker 5: about Americans and by engaging in covert influence operations, And

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Speaker 5: no one disputes that the PRC pursues those goals by

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Speaker 5: compelling companies like Bank Dance to secretly turnover data and

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Speaker 5: carry out PRC directives. Those realities mean that the Chinese

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Speaker 5: government could weaponize TikTok at any time to harm the

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Speaker 5: United States. TikTok collects unprecedented amounts of personal data, and

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Speaker 5: as just as Sotomayor noted, it's not just about the

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Speaker 5: one hundred and seventy million American users, but also about

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Speaker 5: their non user contacts who might not even be engaging

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Speaker 5: with the platform. That data would be incredibly valuable to

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Speaker 5: the PRC. For years, the Chinese government has sought to

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Speaker 5: build detailed profiles about Americans. Where we live, in work,

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Speaker 5: who are friends co workers are, what our interests are,

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Speaker 5: and what our vices are TikTok's immense data set would

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Speaker 5: give the PRC a powerful tool for harassment, recruitment, and espionage.

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Speaker 5: On top of that, the Chinese government's control over TikTok

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Speaker 5: gives it a potent weapon for covert influence operations. And

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Speaker 5: my friends are wrong to suggest that Congress was seeking

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Speaker 5: to suppress specific types of content or specific types of viewpoints. Instead,

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Speaker 5: the national security harm arises from the very fact of

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Speaker 5: a foreign adversary's capacity to secretly manipulate the platform to

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Speaker 5: advance its geopolitical goals, in whatever form that kind of

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Speaker 5: covert operation might take.

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Speaker 3: So that was the voice of the US Delictener General.

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Speaker 3: We did have some questioning going back and forth on this,

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Speaker 3: some of which was quite skeptical of the US government,

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Speaker 3: some of which seem to be amenable.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen to that.

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Speaker 6: I guess what I would say.

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Speaker 5: You began by saying, the cure for concerning speech is

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Speaker 5: counter speech. Here I dispute the premise that Congress was

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Speaker 5: specifically concerned about any particular subject or any particular viewpoint.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to close off the capability of a foreign government,

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Speaker 5: But in the event it's very hard to engage in

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Speaker 5: counter speech when you don't know because someone is secretly

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Speaker 5: manipulating the platform behind the scenes. And in particular, what

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Speaker 5: the PRC has the capability to do is simply silence

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Speaker 5: America Voice payer.

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Speaker 7: Owned by a foreign company and a foreign government. You

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Speaker 7: wouldn't know when it's exercising editorial discretion about this article

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Speaker 7: or that article, or how it's doing it. So maybe

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Speaker 7: we just need to shut down the Oxford University Press

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Speaker 7: in America, or you pick it. Any other foreign owned

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Speaker 7: politico I was told today is owned by Germany, So

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Speaker 7: that would all be okay on your theory, so long

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Speaker 7: as Congress designates that country a foreign adversary.

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Speaker 5: We are not asking the court to articulate bright line

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Speaker 5: rules to govern all kinds of sputs.

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Speaker 7: That I am wasting and I am testing your argument.

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Speaker 5: Yes, And what I want to acknowledge is that sometimes

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Speaker 5: the court has recognized that a speaker based preference might

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Speaker 5: reflect a content based preference. And in the context of

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Speaker 5: ownership of a newspaper, for example, in part because newspaper

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Speaker 5: is a one way channel of communication and is generally

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Speaker 5: understood to represent to some extend its publisher's views, maybe

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Speaker 5: the Court would more readily infer that a regulation targeting

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Speaker 5: that is actually aiming to target content.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think you're.

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Speaker 7: Compelling interest or anything talking about the tailoring, and you're

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Speaker 7: saying we have no alternative but to stop this speech altogether.

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Speaker 3: So that was the counter questioning by Justice Gorsich. Let's

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Speaker 3: go ahead and put this up there on the screen

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Speaker 3: from Scotus Blog C two. Please they write quote the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court is skeptical of ban on t TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Was it Tiktak like Dave Ramsey? Does they say?

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Speaker 3: The Supreme Court on Friday was divided over the constitutionality

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Speaker 3: of a federal law that would require social media giant

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Speaker 3: shutdown TikTok to shut down unless this Chinese parent company

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Speaker 3: can sell by January nineteenth, that's in six days. During

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Speaker 3: the two hours of oral arguments, of justices raised question

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Speaker 3: about the law at the center of the case, whether

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Speaker 3: it restricts TikTok's freedom of speech, as well as a

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Speaker 3: what will happen if there is no sale by the deadline.

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Speaker 3: So this gets back to that law that was previously passed,

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Speaker 3: the Foreign Controlled Applications Act. We talked about it quite

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Speaker 3: a bit at the time it was actually attached to

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Speaker 3: the Ukraine Israel package. Of course, the law identifies China

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Speaker 3: and three other countries North Korea, Russia, and Iran as

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Speaker 3: quote unquote foreign adversaries of the United States and bars

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Speaker 3: the use of these apps controlled by those countries. Now,

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Speaker 3: TikTok itself has resolved a question about potential for sale,

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Speaker 3: saying that they would rather shut down the app in

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Speaker 3: the United States unless the ban is lifted. Let's just

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Speaker 3: put that up there on the screen. Cee three, please

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Speaker 3: to bring this discussion.

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Speaker 4: So we have got six days. We're staring down the barrel.

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Speaker 3: And it seems very possible that TikTok is in fact

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Speaker 3: banned the very day before Donald Trump becomes the President

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Speaker 3: of the United States.

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Speaker 4: And it is an interesting Supreme Court case.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea which way they're going to rule

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Speaker 3: because of people like Justice Gorsicic and Amy Cony Barrett

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Speaker 3: to be a little bit more libertarian. It also is

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Speaker 3: very possible that some of the other justices, liberal justices

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Speaker 3: side with the government here because they're talking about the

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Speaker 3: Protecting Americans Act. Foreign whatever controlled companies is an Act

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Speaker 3: of Congress. It wasn't an executive order like Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: tried in the past. Their question of constitutionality would come

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Speaker 3: on First Amendment grounds, But the law itself has nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with speech. It's purely about the controlling interest

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Speaker 3: of any of these platforms over an x amount of

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Speaker 3: money that hits influence for the amount of revenue and

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Speaker 3: market cap that it has. In addition to the foreign

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Speaker 3: tailoring and a number of other criteria.

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Speaker 4: The name TikTok does not apply in the bill, by

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Speaker 4: the way.

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Speaker 3: It's obviously written about TikTok, but it's about any potential

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Speaker 3: app that would rise to that. So constitutionality wise, I

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Speaker 3: think they have a tough time, and TikTok itself does

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Speaker 3: seem to be prepared to just shut down. The app

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Speaker 3: entirely does raise some question as about that because the

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Speaker 3: Chinese government itself would have to allow the sale of TikTok,

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Speaker 3: and they have said that they would literally never do so,

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Speaker 3: just so you know, it's not about TikTok's own thing.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, it seems very possible.

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Speaker 3: Will be a big change, I think to American like,

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Speaker 3: what is it, one hundred million Americans use TikTok every

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Speaker 3: single day.

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Speaker 1: I think it's one hundred.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: My daughter Ella is that she's a sixteen year old.

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Speaker 2: She was like, if Trump brings back TikTok, He's going

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Speaker 2: to be so popular with my general.

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Speaker 4: Well, TikTok. Trump is pro TikTok. Yeah, much to my

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Speaker 4: own shape.

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Speaker 2: I mean Trump was the original. I mean he was

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Speaker 2: the original mover on trying to ban TikTok. Took actions

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Speaker 2: at the end of his administration that didn't really pan out.

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Speaker 2: Then you had growing bipartisan consensus under the Biden administration.

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Speaker 2: And I do think and you know it's Mitt Romney

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Speaker 2: admitt is as much. And I can read his quote

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Speaker 2: here that a lot of that growing by partisan support

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Speaker 2: for TikTok actually was about speech because they did not

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Speaker 2: like the pro Palestinian advocacy that was going on there.

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Speaker 6: So you have that, then you have Trump. Not only

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Speaker 6: one of.

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Speaker 2: His big donors is also a big TikTok investor.

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Speaker 6: But in addition, Trump himself gets very popular in TikTok.

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Speaker 1: He had fifteen I think.

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Speaker 2: So suddenly he has a different feeling about TikTok, both

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Speaker 2: because of the money and also because of his own ego.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of where we are. But just to

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Speaker 2: get back to Mint Romney. And this is actually important

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Speaker 2: I think for the case, because you heard there the

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Speaker 2: Solicitor General multiple times being like, well, I reject that

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Speaker 2: TikTok was banned because of what's being said on the platform. However,

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Speaker 2: Senator of Mitt Romney at a forum said, some wonder

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Speaker 2: why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut

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Speaker 2: down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If

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Speaker 2: you look at the postings on TikTok and the number

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Speaker 2: of mentions of Palestinians relative to other social media sites,

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Speaker 2: it's overwhelmingly so among TikTok broadcasts. So I'd note that's

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Speaker 2: of real interest, and the President will get the chance

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Speaker 2: to make action in that regard, so making explicit that

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Speaker 2: in his view, the reason why not just but other

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Speaker 2: of his colleagues on both sides of the aisle decided,

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Speaker 2: you know what, we are on ban with it, on

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Speaker 2: board with this TikTok ban was because of pro Palestinian

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Speaker 2: sentiment on the platform, in the sense that like, ah,

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Speaker 2: we can't control this, and these kids are getting out

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Speaker 2: of control. And remember the whole flap over like sharing

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Speaker 2: the Osama bin laden letter that like fueled the whole

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Speaker 2: conversation as well that was going on around TikTok. So

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Speaker 2: that's part of why the Solicitor General is so insistent

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Speaker 2: that like, no, no, no, it didn't have anything to

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Speaker 2: do with that, because if it is about cracking down

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Speaker 2: on certain speech that the government just doesn't like, then

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Speaker 2: you could see the court ruling another direction. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I genuinely don't know which way this is going to go.

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Speaker 2: It seems fairly evenly divided. The ideological splits are kind

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Speaker 2: of unpredictable and interesting as you were laying out. And

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Speaker 2: then there's also just look, this was a bill that

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Speaker 2: was passed with significant bipartisan support that was you know,

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Speaker 2: was a project that was engaged in across the Trump

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Speaker 2: and the Biden administrations and went through the legislative processes.

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court is usually like relatively deferential to when you have,

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Speaker 2: you know, a significant bipartisan legislation that gets passed.

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Speaker 6: So there's that waging on it too.

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Speaker 2: We'll see And I don't think like it's possible that

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Speaker 2: TikTok and the Chinese government are in effectably saying no,

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Speaker 2: we'll shut it down before we sell it. That that's

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Speaker 2: kind of like a negotiating tactic and posturing. But I

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Speaker 2: don't actually think it is because think of what precedent

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Speaker 2: that sets, right, then any Chinese tech company could be

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Speaker 2: shut down under the same Oh.

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Speaker 3: The horror they force our companies to abide by.

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Speaker 6: Actually it's not actually true.

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Speaker 2: So I mean they have a series, Yeah, they have

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Speaker 2: a series of restrictive laws in China that if you know,

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Speaker 2: Twitter or whatever want to operating, yes, they have to

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Speaker 2: deal with Chinese government censorship and whatever, but they didn't

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Speaker 2: explicitly ban like you can't have you know, an American

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Speaker 2: app in the country, and this this is a broader

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Speaker 2: would actually be a broader and more directed ban. So

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Speaker 2: it's not just about child like I obviously I think

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Speaker 2: I think this is silly. I think the idea of

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Speaker 2: the data, I think that's just a kind of it's

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Speaker 2: not made up concern. They can the data that exists

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Speaker 2: on TikTok about all of us exists out there in

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Speaker 2: the world for acquisition anyway. The idea of like recruiting

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Speaker 2: spies on there or whatever seems extremely far fetched to me.

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Speaker 2: So in any case, it also isn't just about China.

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Speaker 2: It's really any country that the Congress takes you know,

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Speaker 2: unbridge at they could decide effectively like no one but

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Speaker 2: US gets to have a tech company that performs and.

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Speaker 6: What's wrong with the country.

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Speaker 3: That's not bad, that's actually that's what the Chinese do.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, Facebook is actually explicitly banned in China,

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Speaker 3: and so is Twitter and Google.

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Speaker 1: So why is that, Well, they have.

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Speaker 3: Decided that they want total control over their Internet, which

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Speaker 3: they use for propagandistic and censorship purposes. It is basic

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Speaker 3: market fairness. United States has no obligation, nor should it,

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Speaker 3: to allow companies who are wholly controlled by foreign companies

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Speaker 3: to operate, especially here on vast scale and assume hundreds

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Speaker 3: of millions of dollars social position or at market position,

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Speaker 3: in addition to over one hundred million Americans using this

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Speaker 3: product every day. Everyone should know what I've been against

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Speaker 3: and for banning TikTok Now for what over since twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 3: long before any sort of Palestinian what concern over it?

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Speaker 3: I won't deny it certainly had an impact, but the

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Speaker 3: point being that at a basic level, we do not

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Speaker 3: allow foreign companies to operate here when our companies cannot

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Speaker 3: do business over there. It's a market fairness. It's the

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Speaker 3: same principle of tariff and reciprocal trade. Now, the argument

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Speaker 3: from TikTok is absurd, which is that they have a

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Speaker 3: First Amendment right to operate in America.

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Speaker 1: No, you don't.

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Speaker 3: No foreign company has a First Amendment right to operate here.

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Speaker 3: Americans have First Amendment rights to express their own speech. Unfortunately, actually,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, it doesn't even apply to First Amendment

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Speaker 3: grounds on our tech companies, which I think is I

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Speaker 3: think the First Amendment should apply to any technology company

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Speaker 3: operating in the.

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Speaker 1: US, but it doesn't.

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Speaker 4: So it's a fast out ridiculous thing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if we think all the way back to

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Speaker 3: early days during the Cold War, would you allow a

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Speaker 3: Russian KGB operated company to achieve vast market position in

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Speaker 3: the US?

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Speaker 4: No? Never, And in Russia they would laugh at you.

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Speaker 3: Same in China, they can't even believe that they have

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Speaker 3: been blessed to allow a trillion dollar market cap company

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Speaker 3: to basically grow and become one of the dominant social

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Speaker 3: media platforms in the nation that they consider their greatest adversary.

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Speaker 3: So look, it should have been banned since twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: It should never even been allowed to operate. It and

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Speaker 3: actually I think if you go when you look at

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Speaker 3: my original monologue is one of the things I warned

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Speaker 3: about is this thing is going to get so popular

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Speaker 3: that banning it will become politically untenable. So we should

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Speaker 3: do it now, well before it takes off and becomes

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Speaker 3: its own thing. But listen, you know, sorry teens and

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Speaker 3: other phone addicts out there, I hope it gets banned.

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Speaker 3: I've been wanting it for quite some time, long before

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Speaker 3: Trump's sold out. Because jeff Yass, his billionaire mega donor

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Speaker 3: decided who owns a large position in Byte Dance, in

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Speaker 3: Chinese company. I think he's worth like twenty five billion

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Speaker 3: something like that. Huge portion of his net worth is

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Speaker 3: in Bye Dance, convinced Trump to do a total one

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Speaker 3: eighty on it. By the way, this is the other

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Speaker 3: thing I don't get. Instagram reels is fine. What's so

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Speaker 3: wrong with that? And spin it off fine, making its

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Speaker 3: own company. I'm totally fine with that. Why TikTok, Like

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Speaker 3: the algorithm itself has been totally replicated across a variety

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Speaker 3: of other social platform Why does it have to be

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Speaker 3: on TikTok. It's not like all that unique of a technology.

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Speaker 3: No one can ever answer that question either what's wrong

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Speaker 3: with reels? What's wrong with any of these that you

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Speaker 3: can mindlessly scrolled YouTube shorts?

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Speaker 6: It's what developed, right, So.

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Speaker 4: It's where every versus over advantage.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's where everybody is. But the technical plotform they're

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Speaker 6: used to, etc.

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Speaker 2: So in any case, I mean, I listen, I reject

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Speaker 2: the new Cold warframing, and I think the national security

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Speaker 2: they don't.

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Speaker 6: They're silly and overblown. I don't think that's why they passed.

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Speaker 2: I think they pass it because of like you know,

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Speaker 2: not wanting to show is really atrocities, which is a

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Speaker 2: crackdown on speech in the sense of like, oh, we

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Speaker 2: don't get to be the ones that control it. The

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Speaker 2: data concerns I think are overblown. But in any case,

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Speaker 2: in terms of what's going to happen here, I really

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Speaker 2: genuinely don't know how the Supreme Court is going to rule.

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Speaker 2: And then I expect that probably even if the shutdown

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Speaker 2: does go into effect, that Trump is going to find

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Speaker 2: a way to try to make a deal to bring

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Speaker 2: back is what I expect, because obviously he did a

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Speaker 2: one to eighty on this is important to one of

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Speaker 2: his major donors, et cetera, et cetera. And he likes

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Speaker 2: TikTok because he you know, the genocide is basically complete,

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Speaker 2: so that worry is now over.

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Speaker 6: Don't worry.

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Speaker 2: No one's coming to save the Palestinians, so that worry

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Speaker 2: is dispatched.

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Speaker 6: And Trump is super.

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Speaker 2: Popular on TikTok, so I don't think he would want

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Speaker 2: to let that platform go away in terms of its

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Speaker 2: political benefit to him personally. So I think he's probably

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Speaker 2: going to figure out a way to keep it alive.

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Speaker 3: The only way it would work, though, is that he

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Speaker 3: would have to convince China to allow them for a

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Speaker 3: forced sale.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just don't see no.

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Speaker 6: I mean no, they could. I mean, they could pass

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Speaker 6: new legislation.

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Speaker 3: Right, but you have to pass a brand new app

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Speaker 3: in Congress. I mean, maybe it seems difficult to get

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Speaker 3: through on this one. It passed with seventy nine YA votes,

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Speaker 3: including Democrats and Republicans, was overwhelmingly popular in the House

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Speaker 3: of Representative, So I'm not saying it's I mean, actually,

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Speaker 3: I think that is a veto proof majority of Yeah,

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Speaker 3: who did Would a number of people really switch just

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Speaker 3: based on what Trump told me?

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Speaker 6: Maybe?

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Speaker 4: Do?

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Speaker 2: I think I think a lot of would, and like

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Speaker 2: I said, they're like Mitt Romney is admitting that for

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Speaker 2: many of them, the Israeli genocide was like the impetus

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Speaker 2: and that's gone, so that concern is lessened. And you

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Speaker 2: got the the dear leader saying I want you to

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Speaker 2: do X, Y and Z can give them some fig

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Speaker 2: leaf of like, oh, we implemented some sort of whatever

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Speaker 2: restriction blah blah blah that alleviates your concerns. So I

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Speaker 2: think he will make a push in that direction. I

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Speaker 2: guess there's no guarantee.

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Speaker 1: Very possible. We all, all right, Let's get to MSNBC.

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Speaker 2: Remarkable moment over on MSNBC's program Morning Joe, where Mika

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Speaker 2: Perzinski still is holding onto the idea that Joe Biden

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Speaker 2: would have beaten Trump this time around. Take a listen

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Speaker 2: to how she makes the case.

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Speaker 8: You give your theory that you think you could look

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Speaker 8: everyone knows how I feel. I made it very clear

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Speaker 8: after the debate that I thought he should continue, but

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Speaker 8: that was not what most people wanted. So but Joe

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Speaker 8: Biden is the kind of person who pulls himself up

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Speaker 8: from rock bottom, and I think he could have stumbled

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Speaker 8: into it. I really do people responded very badly when

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Speaker 8: he beat Trump during that campaign, to Trump bullying him

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Speaker 8: or going after his remaining son. People stood up for

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Speaker 8: Joe Biden because.

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Speaker 6: They knew who he was. They know who he is.

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Speaker 8: I think an aging Joe Biden is very self aware

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Speaker 8: about that, and so is his team around him. And

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Speaker 8: he's still ten times more qualified than what we've got,

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Speaker 8: and he's qualified to manage the world stage. I think

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Speaker 8: after that disastrous debate, he did a news conference. Remind

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Speaker 8: me Leamir was at the NATO summit couples at eight

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Speaker 8: at night, and Yep, he got names wrong, Yep he

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Speaker 8: had to correct himself a few times. But his knowledge

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Speaker 8: of world affairs was in depth and clear and generated

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Speaker 8: exactly what was the reality that this guy could manage

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Speaker 8: the many different hotspots around the world.

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Speaker 2: Probably the most incredible part about Timyzager is that she's

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Speaker 2: still holding onto the idea that that NATO press conference

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Speaker 2: was a masterful gambit.

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Speaker 3: Visibly, I do not remember that press conference being that way.

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Speaker 2: Just right, just to remind people, this is the press

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Speaker 2: conference where he not only introduced Zelensky as Putin, but

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Speaker 2: also introduced his own vice president as Trump. Yes, this

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Speaker 2: is the press conference. It was at eight o'clock at night. Oh,

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Speaker 2: bra Vos or wow, incredible performance. That's a press conference

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Speaker 2: she's pointing to. And they did at the time. It

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Speaker 2: was the most gaslighting thing ever the media at the time.

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Speaker 2: And I think, wasn't it Joe specifically, who was like, no,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't have a PhD in foreign policy, he's just.

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Speaker 1: That he's just that good. And that's also that good press.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Andrew Bates used to often say that he'd be like,

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Speaker 3: he's just that fucking good. Biden apparently is so delusional.

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Speaker 3: He also believes it. He said it at a press conference.

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Speaker 9: Say a listen, I think I would have beaten Trump,

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Speaker 9: could have beaten Trump. And I think that Comin could

404
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Speaker 9: have beaten Trump, would have beaten Trump. It wasn't about

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Speaker 9: I thought it was important to unify the party, and

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Speaker 9: when the party was worried about whether or not I

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Speaker 9: was going to be able to move, I thought, even

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Speaker 9: though I thought I could win again, I thought it

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Speaker 9: was better to unify the party. And it was the

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Speaker 9: greatest honor in my life to be President the United States.

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Speaker 9: But I didn't want to be one who caused a

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Speaker 9: party that wasn't unified to lose an election, and that's

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Speaker 9: why I stepped aside. But I was confident she could win.

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Speaker 4: There you go, he still thinks you could have won?

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Speaker 6: What by Kamala could have won?

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Speaker 4: Pamala could have won, she lost? So what how does

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Speaker 4: that work?

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Speaker 6: I know that was a weird one. Who the hell

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Speaker 6: is the world?

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Speaker 1: Are these people living there? I just don't understand.

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Speaker 3: I mean, at a certain point for Mika and Joe,

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Speaker 3: you know, one comforting thing to.

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Speaker 1: Me is always wonder. I'm like, did they really believe

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Speaker 1: this shit? And now I'm like, well, clearly they must

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Speaker 1: believe it.

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Speaker 3: Because I think how else could you still take to

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Speaker 3: the airwaves today and that he could have won the election,

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Speaker 3: and that the nate O press conference and all that

429
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Speaker 3: was so mad, Like what are we talking about?

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Speaker 1: You know, the people of people have seen through this

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Speaker 1: and laugh. I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I was reading and like she still is, like wants

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Speaker 2: to be friends with whoever his you know, him and

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Speaker 2: his family and his owners.

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Speaker 3: I gonna be around that long, okay, So I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be worried about being friends with him.

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Speaker 6: I don't know. That's how I was reading.

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Speaker 4: What do you want to be friends with?

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Speaker 1: Hunter?

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Speaker 2: I mean maybe maybe she really I think she's incredible.

441
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like the man did not give

442
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 2: a single newspaper interview his entire term in office outside

443
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 2: of this one that we just covered, right, that was

444
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 2: it today US press conferences. Ever, we're all supposed to

445
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: be amazed that he could even stand up and speak

446
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 2: at a you know event that's at eight pm at night.

447
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 2: He's been I mean, it's like we don't even have

448
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 2: a president. It's like we haven't had a president for

449
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 2: even Joe Biden himself said I'm not sure I could

450
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 2: have made it another four years, But you still think

451
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 2: that American people were like, yeah, let's roll that dice.

452
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 6: Sure, why not? I don't know. Totally insane, totally delusional.

453
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 2: You if you were holding on to any idea that

454
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 2: you should listen to anything that these people say, like,

455
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: just please please get rid of that notion, because if

456
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: you are so politically stupid that you genuinely still think

457
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: that Joe Biden might have been able to win this election,

458
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: I just I can't help you.

459
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: Yep, I totally agree, and maybe you should take it

460
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 3: to heart Boomers and other liberals out there who look

461
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 3: to these people for affirmation and for advice, and just

462
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 3: keep that in mind next time they kill They are,

463
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 3: I mean, I.

464
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 2: Think they are, to be honest with you, if there

465
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: has been some you know, there's been a reckoning.

466
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 4: There has been some.

467
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 3: I still see Morning Joe on my dog Walks six

468
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,719
Speaker 3: thirty am or whatever. I still see two or three

469
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: televisions that are playing who was watching the Morning Joe

470
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 3: with that? Or I want to knock on their door

471
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 3: and tell me about yourself?

472
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: Who are you?

473
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 6: But that's also such a dc for us on Zoo.

474
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely all right, we've got to oh, Crystal,

475
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: what do you take a look at?

476
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: Well, Joe and Mika may have gone a little more

477
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: than they bargained for recently with a guest appearance by

478
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 2: Professor Scott Galloway, who unloaded on the ultra rich and

479
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: warned that the current oligarchic path risked revolution.

480
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 10: Once you get above a certain level of wealth, you

481
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 10: get no incremental happiness. So why on earth would you

482
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 10: not go back to a tax policy of the sixties,

483
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 10: seventies and eighties where, say, above pick a big number

484
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 10: ten million, you actually pay more than ten percent, maybe

485
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 10: more than twenty percent, maybe more than fifty percent, because

486
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 10: the difference between thirty thousand a year for a household

487
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 10: and fifty thousand is enormous to the well being of

488
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 10: that household. Low income kids and low income households have

489
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 10: higher resting blood pressure, but the difference between making ten

490
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 10: million a year and fifteen million a year offers you

491
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 10: no happiness. But these individuals have weaponized government, and we

492
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 10: risk revolution. Whether it's CEOs being murdered in the street,

493
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 10: whether it's a me too movement that had righteous components

494
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 10: of it, or black lives matter, what are these movements?

495
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 10: They are targeting the wealthy. We are in the midst

496
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 10: of a series of small revolutions to correct income inequality.

497
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 10: And the reason we put an insurrectionist in a rapist

498
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 10: in office is because, for the first time in our

499
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 10: nation's history, a thirty year old man or woman isn't

500
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 10: doing as well as his or her parents were at thirty.

501
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 10: Why Because the majority of households are having the oxygen

502
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 10: stucked out of the room. Starts at a small number

503
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 10: of individuals and a small number of companies can be

504
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 10: worth more than nation states. Income inequality is out of control.

505
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 10: Our tax policy has gone full oligarch.

506
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: Full oligarch Yalloway here lays on some pretty undeniable truths

507
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: that are seldom heard on mainstream airwaves. The results of

508
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: unchecked capitalism colliding with unlimited money in politics are playing

509
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 2: out in front of our eyes every single day. In

510
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: the outcome, it's nothing less than annihilating catastrophe. We've rushed

511
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 2: headlong into an era of full on zero sum dog

512
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 2: eat dog politics, both between individuals and between nation states.

513
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: The apocalyptic LA fires and the response to those fires

514
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: are a perfect case endpoint.

515
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 6: So firse, let's start with the basics here.

516
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: Whatever legitimate criticisms there are of the political response from

517
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom and Karen Bass, the primary driver of this

518
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: La catastrophe was extreme weather fueled by climate change, something

519
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 2: that no state, even one as large as California, can

520
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: possibly fight.

521
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 6: On their own.

522
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 2: In fact, the data from last year just dropped at

523
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: the same time as the wildfires, confirming twenty twenty four

524
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: was once again the hottest year on record that it

525
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: was the first year to breach a one point five

526
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: degrees celsius or two point seven degree fahrenheit increase from

527
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: pre industrial times. What's more, the last ten years were

528
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: all the hottest ten.

529
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 6: Years on record.

530
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: Lest you think that this jump was an anomaly, wildfires

531
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: are but one of the catastrophes which have increased in

532
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 2: frequency and severity thanks to human fueled climate change. Research

533
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 2: have taken a look at these specific wildfires in LA

534
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 2: and found that man made impacts are the predominant cause

535
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 2: of this catastrophe. In other words, the Santa Ana winds,

536
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 2: they aren't the anomaly. The hotter air and drought conditions

537
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: driven by climate change are what really made this whore.

538
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: Climate Change and its attendant catastrophes are best understood as

539
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: a consequence of oligarchy, both in terms of the emissions

540
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: which have led us to this era of routine catastrophe

541
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: and in terms of the lack of sufficient response. Remember

542
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: oil and gas executives at Exxon they knew that carbon

543
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 2: based fuels with the primary driver of climate change nearly

544
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: fifty years ago, back in nineteen seventy seven. Instead, though,

545
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: of acknowledging and unprofitable truth, they engage in a web

546
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: of lies and deceit, a massive cover up to keep

547
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: the public from understanding the consequences of carbon emissions. They

548
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 2: even enlisted in this cover up some of the very

549
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 2: same consultants that the tobacco industry used to lie about

550
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: the link between their product and cancer. While it is

551
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: no longer tenable to out and out deny climate change,

552
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: this cover up and obfuscation continues to this day, but

553
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: with more sophisticated strategies. A couple of years back, lobbyists

554
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: who thought he was being interviewed for a job was

555
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 2: caught in a secret recording by Greenpeace UK explaining Exo

556
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 2: mobiles tactics for blocking action, like for example, backing solutions

557
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: they understand to be politically infeasible, like in across the

558
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 2: board carbon tax. He also explained the way that they

559
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: buy politicians and use those politicians as their pawns.

560
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 11: A man boasting of a job interview or are never

561
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 11: seen before. Look at how big oil tries to manipulate

562
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:33,479
Speaker 11: big power for both. First, the targets congressmen are fish.

563
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 11: Exon is the fisherman.

564
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 7: When you have an opportunity to talk to the mepros cribris,

565
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 7: you know the the you know it's I like.

566
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 12: It it to fishing, right, yeah, yeah, you know you have

567
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 12: bait you throw.

568
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 10: That bait out.

569
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's all these opportunities that you use, and to.

570
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 7: Use the fishing analogy again just to kind of reel

571
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 7: them in because there are a captive audience.

572
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: They know they need you and I need them up.

573
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 11: Senators pressed to do xons bidding behind closed doors.

574
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 10: Do you want to be able one of the chief

575
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 10: and so the chief knows you that you can go

576
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 10: to the chief.

577
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: And say, well, we've got this issue. We need crivatesment

578
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: so and so to be able to introduce the.

579
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 7: Still we need him to make a floor statement, We

580
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 7: need him to send the letter, you name it.

581
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: We have for everything.

582
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: But it's not just the fossil fuel executives. You have

583
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: an interest in the status quo. The new tech oligarchs

584
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: are equally interested in downplaying the climate crisis. This even

585
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: applies to Elon Musk, of course, found in an electric

586
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: vehicle company. First of all, implementing an adequate climate response

587
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: would require upfront federal government spending and a strong federal government,

588
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: two things the ultra wealthy absolutely hate because they want

589
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: to keep their taxes low and the government too weak

590
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: to interfere in their business crimes and monopolies. That the

591
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: tech oligarchs have another massive business interest. Essentially, every large

592
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: tech company that you've heard of and plenty that you

593
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: have and are engaged in an arms race to rapidly

594
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: develop AI and put towards AGI, or artificial general intelligence.

595
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: The amount of carbon emissions this race is fueling is

596
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: quite vast. Few companies offer transparency about the energy required

597
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: to train and run their tools, but research suggests it's

598
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: extraordinarily energy intensive. In fact, Google blamed a forty eight

599
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,239
Speaker 2: percent increase in emissions on its AI development. Microsoft had

600
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: a similar explanation for its twenty nine percent increase in emissions.

601
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: As NPR rights quote, Goldman Sachs has researched the expected

602
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: growth of data centers in the US and estimates they'll

603
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: be using eight percent of total power in the country

604
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: by twenty thirty. That's up from three percent in twenty

605
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: twenty two. Company analysts say quote the proliferation of AI

606
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: technology in the data centers necessary to feed it will

607
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: drive a surge and power demand the likes of which

608
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: has not been seen in a generation. But the oligarchscript

609
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: on our government doesn't only block efforts to deal with

610
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: climate change, as the ultra Wealthyes, taxes drop near zero,

611
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: and a weak government allows their monopolies to flourish, fueling

612
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: massive inequality. The need to forcibly keep the peasants from

613
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: finding their pitchforks also increases that imperative, more than anything else,

614
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: is what is driven an ever expanding surveillance and police state.

615
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: That's why, even as our politicians insist we can't afford

616
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: to deal with climate, or to provide healthcare or affordable childcare,

617
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: or free college or world class infrastructure, there is a

618
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: never ending spigot of money for any agency filled with

619
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: people with guns used to discipline the population. That includes,

620
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: of course, the military, Fbiicia, border patrol, and of.

621
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 6: Course local police forces.

622
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: So, returning to our Hollywood horror, LA spent one point

623
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: seventy three billion dollars on the police department in the

624
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: last fiscal year, and Mayor Karen Bass up that funding

625
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: to one point ninety nine billion in the current fiscal year,

626
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: for a roughly one hundred and thirty million dollar increase.

627
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: Once state and federal moneys are included in that overall

628
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: department budget is well over three billion dollars. Meanwhile, fire

629
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: department budget was cut, something that turns out to be

630
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: rather crucial in this moment, but never you mind. Since

631
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: state prison inmates are being pressed into service as firefighters,

632
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: risking their lives for ten dollars per day to save

633
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: homes for billionaires who largely view them as animals, and

634
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: while the police that predominantly criminalize the poor are kitted

635
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: up with military gear and fat budgets in Democrat and

636
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: Republican cities alike, the kind of police which could curb

637
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: oligarch financial crimes, they are under constant attack. It is

638
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: no accident that both Mark Zuckerberg and Andresen went on

639
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: Rogan's podcast to trash the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which

640
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: has been inconvenient for both of their bottom lines. Musk

641
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: and others have also taken aim at the Securities Exchange Commission,

642
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: which has dared to regulate crypto and to investigate Musk

643
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,239
Speaker 2: for market manipulation, and Musk, the oligarch king himself, has

644
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: been given a direct commission to shape and slash the

645
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: government in areas where it might theoretically check his power.

646
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: You can bet any agencies involved in suppression of what

647
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: Galloway described as many revolutions will continue to be well funded,

648
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: even as other agencies like the EPA and the National

649
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: Labor Relations Board, which Musk believes is unconstitutional, are starved.

650
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: Elon is one of the Pentagon's top contractors, So you're

651
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: a fool if you think that budget is going to

652
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 2: face any real cuts underham Instead, his wealth and those

653
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: of the other favored oligarchs will continue to escalate, reaching

654
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: new heights never before seen in human history. AI will

655
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: revolutionize wealth extraction and consolidate even more wealth and power

656
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: at the very top. And that's to say nothing of

657
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: the giant tax cut Trump has already promised these billionaires.

658
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: And as these billionaires become increasingly untouchable even by nation stage,

659
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: each one individually too big to fail, they will go

660
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: to greater and greater lengths to insulate themselves from the

661
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: consequences of the globe being run exclusively for their benefit. This, too,

662
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: we see playing out in La Hamilton Nolan wrote an

663
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: excellent piece on this dynamic titled quote lifeboat capitalism. Some burn,

664
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: some drown, and some make money either way. In the piece,

665
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: he writes that we have a choice to either confront

666
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: the impacts from climate change together or separately. Together as

667
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: a nation helping each other in as egalitary in a

668
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: way as possible, or in a Darwinian dog eat dog

669
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: scramble for resources where the rich and the well connected

670
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: always come out on top of the pile of the

671
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: LFE option. He says, quote we know what that will

672
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: look like, don't we. It will look like rich people

673
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: paying any price for private firefighters to save their mansions

674
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: as all around them burn. It will look like rich

675
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: people wrangling government balance for their washed away beach houses

676
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: as poor people inland languish in the monk. It looks

677
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: like large swaths of America becoming unensurable and then being

678
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: left to only the very rich who are willing to

679
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: take the risk, and the very poor who can't afford

680
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: to do anything else. It looks like climate refugees crowding

681
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: our streets, refugees from poorer countries, and then also refugees

682
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: from our own country. Looks like wealthier people building walls

683
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: around their safe land and then writing checks to politicians

684
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: who will tell the Panics middle class people that the

685
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: poor people are coming to take their place. We can

686
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: either work to build more lifeboats and to make humane

687
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: rules about who gets on them, or we can just

688
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: let the strong people toss the weaker people into the

689
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: water and sail away. Either by action or by inaction,

690
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: our government is going to effectively choose one or the other.

691
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: I don't have to tell you which choice is being

692
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 2: made in the current political dynamic. Look around, billionaires building bunkers,

693
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: learning to fight, buying properties in New Zealand, building literal

694
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: spaceships in case they need to flee this doomed civilization,

695
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 2: altogether buying entire social media platforms to spread a warped

696
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 2: version of reality which always happens to align with their

697
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 2: own interests. They've decided to roll the dice that they'll

698
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: be able to personally escape the consequences of the world

699
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: that they themselves set up, using their wealth and power

700
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: as a shield to return. Briefly to Scott galloway is

701
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: video we started this monologue with. While he can apparently

702
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: see these dynamics pretty clearly when it comes to the

703
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: US context, he is completely blind when it comes to

704
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: the same dog eat dog dynamics which are presently ascended

705
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: on the global stage. He celebrated Israel's genocidal actions in Gaza.

706
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: Their unrestrained barbarity, backed by the global superpower, has helped

707
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 2: to cement a global order that mirrors the zero sum

708
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: Darwinian scramble that increasingly characterizes our domestic life.

709
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 6: Miight makes right.

710
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: The strong will brazenly and brutally gobble up whatever resources

711
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: they possibly can, with military budget ever expanding to try

712
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: to make sure that no other nations might.

713
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 6: Get to have a say.

714
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: These wars for resources are frequently also driven by the

715
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: insatiable appetites and needs of the oligarch class, whose children

716
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: are never the ones sent to fight and die. In

717
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 2: other words, oligarchy is the issue that connects all other

718
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: issues war, climate, poverty, censorship, democracy.

719
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 6: It's no accident that is.

720
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: The ultra wealthy have pulled away into a superclass of

721
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 2: global masters. We become unable to solve a single problem

722
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: that really requires collective action. Instead we left to watch

723
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: the fires burn and pray our loved ones are not

724
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: in the disaster zone this time. And Sagar, this is

725
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: a more complain.

726
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 3: And if you want to hear my reaction to Crystal's monologue,

727
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: become a premium subscriber today at breakingpoints dot com. Joining

728
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 3: us now is Derek Thompson. He is a writer at

729
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: the Atlantic, host of the Plain English podcast and friend

730
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 3: of the show.

731
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: It's good to see you, sir, Thank you for joining

732
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: us to be here. Thank you so much so.

733
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 3: Derek, you put together a cover story for The Atlantic

734
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: which has really hit home for a lot of people.

735
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 3: Let's put this up there on the screen, and it

736
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 3: is called the Anti Social Century, and in it you

737
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 3: really weigh you really weigh the costs of a lot

738
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: of decisions during COVID. But I think more importantly, you

739
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 3: just lay out really a lot of important data which

740
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 3: highlights how much time Americans are spending by themselves and

741
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 3: specifically just alone, and what the social ramifications are of that.

742
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 3: So why don't you just highlight some of this for

743
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 3: the audience and give them a top line overview of

744
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 3: what you discussed.

745
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 12: The jutline overview is that we have records going back

746
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 12: at least the nineteen sixties that ask Americans how much

747
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 12: time do you spend face to face socializing?

748
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: How much time do you spend alone?

749
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 12: And Americans have never on record spent more time alone

750
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 12: and less time in.

751
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: Face to face socializing.

752
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 12: You know a lot of people are going to hear

753
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 12: this and say, oh, this is mostly about COVID, no

754
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,959
Speaker 12: socializing declined in the back half the twentieth century. Between

755
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 12: the nineteen sixties and nineteen nineties, Robert Putnam wrote a

756
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 12: famous book called Bowling Alone, where he said, look, Americans

757
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 12: are joining clubs, lest they're joining associations. Less they're bowling together.

758
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 12: Less they are bowling alone. A lot of people in

759
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 12: two thousand when that book came out said Robert Putnam

760
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 12: is full of crap.

761
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 9: He does.

762
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 12: Nobody's talking about Americans are hanging out. They're going to

763
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 12: hang out more than ever. But in fact, alone time

764
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 12: just increased between two thousand and COVID.

765
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: Of course it's shot.

766
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 12: Up during the lockdowns, but according to one study by

767
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 12: the Federal Reserve, we spent more time alone in twenty

768
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 12: twenty three than we did in twenty twenty one, the

769
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 12: year that all those people got vaccinated left their house

770
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 12: resumed life as well. So this is a sixty year problem.

771
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 12: This is not a pandemic issue. This is a century

772
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 12: long issue that was briefly accelerated by the pandemic.

773
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 6: You know, it's funny.

774
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 2: Sagar and I of course talked at length about the

775
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: vivik Ramaswami, you know, inductment of American culture and how

776
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: he was like, fewer sleepovers, more math tutoring, fewer mall hangouts,

777
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 2: and I was like, mall hangouts, like that doesn't happen anymore.

778
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: And it was better when it did because it may

779
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: have been a sort of like shallow consumers culture, but

780
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: at least there was some form of community there and

781
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: some people being together in real life. But as you track,

782
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: this isn't just about young people, This isn't just about

783
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 2: men or just about when. This is truly across all

784
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 2: ages and demographics. So is the you know, the source

785
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: of the problem, so to speak, the smartphone is that

786
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 2: what we're dealing with here is just like the fallout

787
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: from these things.

788
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 12: Right here, you say something so important, which is that

789
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 12: this isn't a phenomenon about rich or poor.

790
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: It's not men versus women, it's not black versus white.

791
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 12: For literally every single demographic that the Peer of Labor

792
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 12: Statistics or the American Time You Survey, which is run

793
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 12: by the Peer of Labor Statistic Studies, for every single demographic,

794
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 12: face to face socializing declined and alone time increased. And

795
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 12: if you want to know my answer for why this

796
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 12: is happening, look, you can point to any number of

797
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 12: phenomena that have happened over the last sixty years. You know,

798
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 12: Robert Putnam talks a lot about moral revolutions have happened

799
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 12: in America. It's a worthy topic of conversation. I would

800
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 12: look at three technologies. I think the car allowed us

801
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 12: to privatize our lives. I think the television allowed us

802
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 12: to privatize our leisure. And I think the smartphone allows

803
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 12: us to privatize our attention, so that now even when

804
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 12: we're in a crowd, we can be alone and also someone. Ironically,

805
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 12: when we're alone, we feel like we're part of a crowd.

806
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 12: So we actually think that people are having a hard

807
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 12: time recharging alone, which is one reason why they're selecting

808
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 12: to not hang out with friends so often. But I

809
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 12: would look at this fundamentally as a universal story that

810
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 12: relates to universal technologies. And it's hard to think of

811
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 12: three technologies more universal than cars, televisions, and smartphones. And

812
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 12: I want to emphasize I'm not so much saying everyone

813
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 12: give up your car, everyone give up your television.

814
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: No one watched Netflix anymore.

815
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 12: I'm saying that we need to account for the negative externalities,

816
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 12: the accidental side effects of our day to day choices.

817
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 12: If we choose over and over again to order food

818
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 12: in rather than go out with friends, and we choose

819
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 12: over and over again to watch a movie on Netflix

820
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 12: rather than go out to dinner with friends, those choices

821
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 12: scale over our lives, and those choices scale across the country.

822
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 12: And that's why everybody seems to be spending more and

823
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 12: more time by themselves.

824
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 3: So then provocative question here, why is this bad? You

825
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 3: just mentioned negative externalities. What are the negative externalities of

826
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 3: being alone?

827
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: I would put it in two buckets.

828
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 12: First off, we have a lot of really interesting research

829
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 12: that shows that people are simply less happy when they're

830
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 12: by themselves. Their life satisfaction is much lower. Not when

831
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 12: they spend one night alone, you know, one night at

832
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 12: a hotel bar. When I'm a father of a young child,

833
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 12: sometimes I think, like my God, a night alone, it's

834
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 12: a blessing from God. Okay, sometimes spending some time alone

835
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 12: is really lovely. But people who spend more time alone

836
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 12: are by and large less happy with their lives.

837
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: That's the first thing. The second thing is that I

838
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: think our.

839
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 12: Alone time interacts with society in some strange ways. You know,

840
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 12: I talk, for example, to Arley Hawk's child who's a

841
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 12: sociologist at Burn and she mentioned that there's lots of communities,

842
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 12: say in rural Kentucky, where Republicans were incredibly vexed about

843
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 12: the fact that there were all of these illegal immigrants

844
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 12: in America. And look, legal immigrants caused a lot of

845
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 12: problems in a lot of different cities. But she pointed

846
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 12: out that in rural Kentucky, which has a lot of

847
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 12: economic problems, you have almost no immigrants whatsoever. And so

848
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 12: one thing that happens, I think with politics when people

849
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 12: spend more time alone is that the issues of their

850
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 12: villages way less and the issues of the country way more.

851
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 12: And there used to be the saying of all politics

852
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 12: as local. This didn't make it in the peace, but now

853
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 12: I feel like all politics is focal. All politics is

854
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 12: about what national news tells you to focus on, even

855
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 12: if that story has nothing to do with your community.

856
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 12: And I think that's a strange and alienating place for

857
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 12: our politics to go. So I'd look at both the

858
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 12: personal for the costs and.

859
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 6: The national author you also talk about.

860
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 2: I'll read a quote from piece you say, the village

861
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: is our best arena for practicing productive disagreement. And compromise,

862
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 2: in other words, democracy. So it's no surprise that the

863
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 2: erosion of the village has coincided with the emergient of

864
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: a grotesque style of politics in which every election feels

865
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 2: like an existential quest to vanquish an intramural enemy. And

866
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: you imagine two people who live in a community together

867
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: who may have, you know, polar opposite views. They're tasked

868
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: with working together to collaborate on some like diversity statement

869
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: for the school, and because they're forced to deal with

870
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: each other face to face, they're actually able to realize, like, Okay,

871
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: this isn't some cartoon character villain, this isn't my enemy.

872
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: This is just Susie. She lives down the street. She

873
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: thinks about this stuff a little different than I. But

874
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: we can actually come up with something that we can

875
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 2: all agree on. This is also why I've always thought

876
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: the Union Hall was very important, because this is one

877
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: of the only places where this type of politics still really.

878
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 6: Occurs in America.

879
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 2: And when you lose that, all you're left with is,

880
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: you know, this very tribal, very one dimensional sort of

881
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: existential battle that's playing out in these almost imagined spaces online.

882
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 12: Truly well said you know, sometimes people ask, you know,

883
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 12: what's the difference between talking to someone in the real world,

884
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 12: so called physical world, and talking to them on your phone.

885
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: Well, there's this researcher at.

886
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 12: NYU named Jay van Babel who looks at how exactly

887
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 12: online conversation is different than offline conversation, and he's found

888
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 12: that it's more extreme, it's more negative, and there's a

889
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 12: ton more out group hatred. So if you're at a

890
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 12: dinner party with people who you might disagree with a

891
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 12: little bit, you tend not to be incredibly extreme in

892
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 12: your views or incredibly hateful of their views, or you know,

893
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 12: throwing the butter at them or something and telling them

894
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 12: that their entire world vie sucks. You're drinking the same

895
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 12: bottle of wine, you're eating the same chicken, you're passing

896
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 12: the same salt, and so in a way, this simple

897
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 12: need to co exist with them in a space leads

898
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 12: to a kind of sharing of values. But we don't

899
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 12: have anything like that on the Internet, and so our

900
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 12: conversations go berserve, you know, to blow a little bit

901
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 12: of smoke up of you guys. For you guys like

902
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 12: I think this show does a wonderful job of talking

903
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 12: to people that you disagree with and that you agree with,

904
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 12: and modeling how to have conversations with people that you

905
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 12: disagree with in a way that doesn't simply hate on

906
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 12: them for the fact of their disagreement. You disagree, Okay,

907
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 12: we're people, We disagree about stuff. That's what living in

908
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 12: a democracy is. Now, let's have a conversation. And as

909
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 12: you both know, you're active on social media. It's very

910
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 12: difficult to have those conversations on Twitter because it's so

911
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 12: easy to just quote tweet something that Crystal says and say, oh,

912
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 12: let me take this out of context and show you

913
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 12: how absolutely absurd this point of view. Is Harder to

914
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 12: do that at a dinner table, harder to do that

915
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 12: in any kind of conversation because the other person can

916
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 12: respond and say.

917
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: I share your values, but I disagree.

918
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 12: So I do think the migration of our political conversations

919
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 12: from the physical world, where all politics is local, to

920
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 12: the digital world, where all politics is focal, absolutely changes

921
00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 12: the nature of our politics.

922
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: I totally agree with you, Derek whenever. So in it

923
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 3: you note a few actually good trends. Independent bookstores are booming,

924
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 3: board game cafes are becoming a thing, but you know,

925
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 3: it's a band aid, I think to a much bigger problem.

926
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 4: What are some solutions.

927
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 3: Is it just to be aware of the problem, Is

928
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: it to actively seek things out?

929
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: What are researchers of.

930
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: Looking at for activities that seem to at least address

931
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 3: these negative externalities.

932
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 12: What I would say in the big picture is that

933
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 12: science and technology tend to move linearly and culture moves

934
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 12: in a cycle. So like medicine tends to just get

935
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 12: better and better and better, and computers just tend to

936
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 12: get faster and faster and faster.

937
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: That's the story that exists. Along the line.

938
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 12: Culture tends to go back and forth and back and forth,

939
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 12: like what's the style of genes these days? Skinny Mummy's rumy?

940
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 12: Who knows culture can change? It does change, That's what

941
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 12: makes it culture. In the first half the twentieth century,

942
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 12: we had an enormously social century. Union marriage went up,

943
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 12: fertility went up, the number of people who joined all

944
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 12: kinds of associations went up. There was a kind of

945
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 12: moral revolution in togetherness, and it changed the nineteen sixties

946
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 12: and nineteen seventies for a variety of reasons, including perhaps

947
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 12: just the rise of a certain kind of American individualism,

948
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,439
Speaker 12: or the resurgence of a certain kind of American individualism.

949
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: But culture can change.

950
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 12: And one thing that I want to do with this

951
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 12: piece is just to hold up a mirror to America

952
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 12: and say, this is what we've done to ourselves. A

953
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 12: handful of decisions that, bit by bit, you know, one

954
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 12: night at home, one night at home, have collectively created

955
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 12: a world where everybody is spending a record amount of

956
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 12: time alone.

957
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: Do you want that? Do you like the reflection in

958
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: the mirror?

959
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 12: And I'm hoping that people say, no, I don't, And

960
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 12: so they become a little more likely to hang out

961
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 12: on Thursday, and that makes their friends a little more

962
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 12: likely to invite them out the next Thursday for dinner.

963
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 12: And that makes the friend of the friend a little

964
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 12: bit more likely to start a book club because they

965
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 12: see more people leaving their house. Right, little actions create norms,

966
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 12: and cascading great behaviors, and behaviors cascading create movements.

967
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: And my hope is that the piece at the beginning

968
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: of just that.

969
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also suggest though an overt sort of

970
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: policy direction, which.

971
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 6: Is if you invest in areas.

972
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: Where there would be a communal expert, where it's like amazing.

973
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: I've been to some of these, like amazing sports centers,

974
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 2: or you've got all kinds of leagues and kids playing

975
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: and adults playing, or you know, beautiful libraries. Whatever it

976
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: is that might capture people's interests, that would help to

977
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 2: get people out of their homes, off their phones and

978
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 2: into these communal spaces, and unfortunately, what we've really seen

979
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: is a lot of budget cuts for that type of

980
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 2: community investment. Derek, I had one more question for you

981
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: on the political piece, because I thought this was an

982
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: interesting insight and different than what the post Trump re

983
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: elect conversation has been. You describe Trump's style as a

984
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: triumph of this all tribe, no village form of confrontation politics.

985
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: A lot of the democratic life essens have been more

986
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: like and maybe this is like, you know, a positive

987
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: direction to go in, but not really response to the

988
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 2: moment we live in has been more like, we need

989
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 2: to do more outreach, we need to be nicer to

990
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: people that disagree, when actually, I mean Trump isn't nice

991
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: to people who disagree with him. He calls them the enemy.

992
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: He says he's gonna, you know, sick the national security

993
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,959
Speaker 2: state on send off the military against them, he uses

994
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: every name of the book to describe his enemies, and

995
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 2: we're not just talking about at least, we're talking about

996
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: anyone who disagrees with him and his movement.

997
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 6: And you say, you know.

998
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: Actually, that form of politics was very successful, successful enough

999
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 2: to put him back in the White House, successful enough

1000
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: to really sort of like, you know, touch on the

1001
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: moment culturally that we're living in. So you know, what

1002
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: does that mean for Democrats in terms of how they

1003
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: should respond to this moment?

1004
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: Okay, it's a really good question, and I don't have

1005
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: the answer.

1006
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 12: Not every story is the same story, right, I mean,

1007
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 12: I wrote this eight thousand and nine thousand Red piece

1008
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 12: about the phenomenon that Americans spend an historic amount of

1009
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 12: time alone, and then I think it's making them sadder

1010
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 12: individually and our society sicker because because of it. I

1011
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 12: don't want to represent this article as being a kind

1012
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 12: of Rosetta stone for the future of democratic party politics

1013
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 12: or democratic party messaging. It might be the case that

1014
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 12: a meaner style of politics in the twenty twenties and

1015
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 12: maybe even going forward in the age of the Internet,

1016
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 12: might be more successful because people spend more time alone.

1017
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 12: And if my job were to be a political consultant.

1018
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 12: I would say, meet people where they are. They're alone,

1019
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 12: they're angry, they're spending all of their time on the internet,

1020
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 12: where they feel extreme and an enormous amount of outgroup animosity.

1021
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 12: Meet them where they are and feed that outgrome animosity.

1022
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 12: That might be a totally reasonable strategy for winning that election.

1023
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 12: But there's a lovely concept of the difference between infinite

1024
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 12: and finite games, and finite games are made to be won,

1025
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 12: and infinite games are made to keep playing. Election is

1026
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 12: a finite game. One side wins and one side loses.

1027
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 12: But life is a kind of infinite game. You want

1028
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 12: to keep living, you want to keep winning. And it's

1029
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 12: conceivable that the best strategies for being happy in the

1030
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 12: world might not be the best strategies for how to

1031
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 12: win political contests, like in the next midterm. Not every

1032
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 12: story is the same story, and so you want to

1033
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 12: be sure you know what question you're asking. Is the

1034
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 12: question how to win in rural Pennsylvania or is the

1035
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 12: question how to live the.

1036
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: Happiest life in the next few years?

1037
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 12: Right, this piece is focused squarely on the second question,

1038
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 12: But the first question is it's damn important and we

1039
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 12: need answers there too.

1040
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: That's a really I love that response, I really do.

1041
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 3: So we encourage everybody to go read it or listen

1042
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 3: to your podcasts as well.

1043
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: Derek, thank you so much for joining us, man, We

1044
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: appreciate you.

1045
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 6: Great to see Derek, thank you, thanks to both of you.

1046
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you.

1047
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 3: The show is going to be late today. Sorry we

1048
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 3: talked too much, we had technical difficulties, et cetera.

1049
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: It is what it is and we will see you

1050
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: all tomorrow.

1051
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 5: P