Speaker 1: This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against miners,
Speaker 1: and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls
Speaker 1: on the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There
Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. Last week, Bill Gates
Speaker 1: and Melinda Gates announced they're divorcing. According to The Wall
Speaker 1: Street Journal, the couple has actually been in the process
Speaker 1: of divorcing for two years. One reason is Melinda Gates
Speaker 1: is reported discomfort with Bill Gates's dealings with convicted sex
Speaker 1: trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. The New York Times reported the beginning
Speaker 1: inn Bill Gates met with Jeffrey Epstein on numerous occasions,
Speaker 1: including at least three times at Epstein's Manhattan townhouse and
Speaker 1: at least once staying late into the night. And keep
Speaker 1: in mind this would have been years after Epstein pled
Speaker 1: guilty and was convicted of sexually abusing a fourteen year
Speaker 1: old girl in two thousand eight. Bill Gates has sp
Speaker 1: exwoman told The Times that he met with Epstein to
Speaker 1: discuss philanthropy, saying Bill Gates regrets ever meeting with Epstein
Speaker 1: and recognizes that it was an error and judgment to
Speaker 1: do so. So I won't pretend to know what's going
Speaker 1: on here, but I do know that there are many
Speaker 1: powerful men in tech who had connections with Epstein that
Speaker 1: have yet to face much scrutiny, let alone any accountability
Speaker 1: for their choice to have dealings with a sexual abuser.
Speaker 1: And I also know that we don't spend near enough
Speaker 1: time talking about the fact that Ottawa Tumboya, a black
Speaker 1: woman and m I T student, was one of the
Speaker 1: first to call out the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and
Speaker 1: the tech world, setting a powerful example. Let's revisit Ottawa's story.
Speaker 1: You've probably heard about American financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled
Speaker 1: guilty and was convicted in two thousand and eight of
Speaker 1: procuring an underage girl for sex. In July of last year,
Speaker 1: he was arrested on charges of sex trafficking and conspiracy
Speaker 1: to engage in sex trafficking. He was found dead in
Speaker 1: prison in August. In addition to his connection to powerful
Speaker 1: political figures like Ill Clinton, Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew,
Speaker 1: and credibly accused rapist President Donald Trump, Epstein also had
Speaker 1: deep connections to the tech world despite being a convicted
Speaker 1: sex offender. On September seven, Ronan Pharaoh published an expose
Speaker 1: in The New Yorker that found that the Massachusetts Institute
Speaker 1: of Technology or m i T, had a deeper fundraising
Speaker 1: relationship with Epstein than it had previously acknowledged, even as
Speaker 1: officials knew he was a convicted sex offender, and that
Speaker 1: the university went to great lengths to cover it up.
Speaker 1: Now here's just some of what Pharaoh found. Even though
Speaker 1: Epstein was disqualified and m i t s official donor database,
Speaker 1: the Media Lab continued to accept money from him, consulted
Speaker 1: him about the use of funds, and by marking his
Speaker 1: contributions as anonymous, avoided disclosing their full extent. Both publicly
Speaker 1: and within the university. Epstein appeared to act as a
Speaker 1: go between for wealthy donors like Bill Gates to pump
Speaker 1: money into m i T. According to Pharaoh, m i
Speaker 1: t s efforts to conceal Epstein's connections to the university
Speaker 1: went so far that staff referred to Epstein as Voldemort
Speaker 1: or he who must not be named. Whistle Blower. Sidney Swinson,
Speaker 1: a former m i T development associate, told Pharaoh that
Speaker 1: the lab's leadership made it explicit, even in her earliest
Speaker 1: days with them, that Epstein's donations had to be kept secret.
Speaker 1: Staffords knew about m I t s relationship with Epstein.
Speaker 1: Prominent faculty adviser Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's
Speaker 1: Piece was published. Joy Eto, the director of the m
Speaker 1: I T Media Lab, resigned in the latest fallout connected
Speaker 1: to Jeffrey Epstein. M I T is opening an investigation
Speaker 1: into its ties to the finance You're in convicted sex offender.
Speaker 1: The announcement came just one day after The New Yorker
Speaker 1: revealed that m I T S Media Lab was attempting
Speaker 1: to conceal donations from Epstein. Now there's a lot to
Speaker 1: say about Jeffrey Epstein, but this story isn't really about him.
Speaker 1: It's about courage, community, and power. We hear a lot
Speaker 1: about Epstein's horrific crimes, and most people credit Roman Pharaoh
Speaker 1: with bringing their full scope to light. But even before
Speaker 1: Rodan Pharaoh's piece was published, women in the m I
Speaker 1: T community spoke up, and we should honor their voices too.
Speaker 1: To the future. M I T S Media Lab a
Speaker 1: place that follows crazy ideas wherever they may leave. We
Speaker 1: get to think about the future. What does the world
Speaker 1: look like ten years, twenty years, thirty years, what should
Speaker 1: it look like? The M I T Media Lab is
Speaker 1: an important place CBS even dubbed at the future Factory,
Speaker 1: and it's where technologists Ottawatumboya knew she had to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I came here because it is sort of a place
Speaker 1: for misfits, the Media Lab. It is in the disciplinary
Speaker 1: and has sort of the intersection of tech and art
Speaker 1: and design, and that was what I was looking for
Speaker 1: when I graduated from undergrad UM. I worked for a
Speaker 1: couple of years back and I will be where I'm
Speaker 1: from and became a VR developer on the side on
Speaker 1: top of my job and needed to I was sort
Speaker 1: of like looking for somewhere to buy myself. UM, and
Speaker 1: I've heard about the Media Lab and how sort of
Speaker 1: civic minded. One of the groups was called Civic Media
Speaker 1: and our motto is a tech for social change and
Speaker 1: I was like, well, that sounds like exactly what I
Speaker 1: want to do. Yeah, so I applied and then it
Speaker 1: worked out. Ottawa was raised and shaped by a community
Speaker 1: of strong, resilient women and that upbringing has been a
Speaker 1: big part of how she shows up to the world today.
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. I mean my work is always about women,
Speaker 1: and it's always about it is always about women in Africa.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a bit more general than than that. But
Speaker 1: I have worked in my robe my whole life. I've
Speaker 1: studied away from my robe, but always try to bring
Speaker 1: back my research and the questions that I'm asking two
Speaker 1: home and the woman that I've worked with in informal
Speaker 1: sentiments in Kenya. But you know, that's just my research.
Speaker 1: But how I approached studying and how I approach being
Speaker 1: in big institutions is definitely sort of inspired by how
Speaker 1: I was raised by my mom and my grandma and
Speaker 1: I have like a thousand aunts. Um grew up in
Speaker 1: something of the matriarchy, I would say, so, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: So you were raised in a community of strong, badass women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and like really scary ones too, so like we look
Speaker 1: at them with a lot of love and admiration but
Speaker 1: also a lot of fear. Audible works with virtual reality,
Speaker 1: so that means she has to be able to imagine
Speaker 1: worlds that haven't even been seeing yet. It's a spirit
Speaker 1: that drives her both personally and professionally. Do you think
Speaker 1: that that sort of work has helped you kind of
Speaker 1: imagine a future where things can be better than they are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so, I would say so. I think I've
Speaker 1: always sort of had that in me before I started
Speaker 1: playing on R and and and and I think those
Speaker 1: projects are sort of things that are already within me,
Speaker 1: as opposed to things that have made me think a
Speaker 1: certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just
Speaker 1: reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men,
Speaker 1: and actually my grand both my grandpa's are fantastic men
Speaker 1: and have been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining
Speaker 1: Kenya differently that, yeah, I would say, it's totally in me.
Speaker 1: And you know, when I wrote that, it wasn't even
Speaker 1: so much that I was so when I was sort
Speaker 1: of talking against my director. It wasn't even so much
Speaker 1: that I was imagining a different future. It was more
Speaker 1: like this current present isn't something is off, something is
Speaker 1: not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up
Speaker 1: is if somebody's not right, you fix it or you
Speaker 1: say something about it, but you don't sit around and
Speaker 1: do nothing. As a grad student in the media lab,
Speaker 1: Ottawa published a piece in the Tech m I T
Speaker 1: Student publication at the university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it,
Speaker 1: she called for the resignation of Joy Ito, the head
Speaker 1: of the m I T Media Lab. Her piece band
Speaker 1: weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would go on to echo her
Speaker 1: points in his New Yorker expose on September seven. The
Speaker 1: only difference is Ottawa call for it to resign, and
Speaker 1: after a Fare's piece was published, he actually did Did
Speaker 1: you ever feel like people have an easier time taking
Speaker 1: the situation seriously when it's purported by a white man?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, for sure. And I appreciate Ronan Farwer's
Speaker 1: work a lot, and we actually got to meet him
Speaker 1: and we kind of talked about this. But you know,
Speaker 1: Senior Spence, and she was the real hero of the story.
Speaker 1: I mean, she was the actual whistle blower. And sometimes
Speaker 1: people treat me like I was a whistle blower when
Speaker 1: I didn't whistle blow anything. I just have the same
Speaker 1: information that everybody else had and sort of said my
Speaker 1: opinion about it. And for sure, I mean, even on
Speaker 1: the comments on my article, like there were so many
Speaker 1: comments I had to do with my race and ethnicity
Speaker 1: and where I'm from, as opposed to, you know, not
Speaker 1: agreeing with me and my ideas. It was very much like, well,
Speaker 1: you're not from America, you don't know what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: And then Ronan farre writes this article, and of course
Speaker 1: everyone just jump ship. And you know, I totally understood
Speaker 1: my director resigning after that. I was just more shocked
Speaker 1: of how many people said, oh, we were wrong after
Speaker 1: the article, because to me, it's kind of like we
Speaker 1: already had that information beforehand, and people had made up
Speaker 1: those decisions, their decisions to support him at that point.
Speaker 1: And it's only when a powerful and not just white man,
Speaker 1: a powerful white man writes about it that it's enough
Speaker 1: to sort of sway people's opinions or feelings were at
Speaker 1: least they're vocal ones. So I heard an NPR interview
Speaker 1: where you described your meeting with Edo, where he basically said,
Speaker 1: I agree with all the things that you're saying, all
Speaker 1: the things that you say I did. I totally did.
Speaker 1: You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose
Speaker 1: my job over it. Yeah, And there were a lot
Speaker 1: of people who felt that way, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people will still feel that way. Because he kind of
Speaker 1: was the heart of the Media Lab and a lot
Speaker 1: of people depended on him for their projects, for funding,
Speaker 1: for you know, other people were coming into the media
Speaker 1: Lab for the first time under his lead a shift,
Speaker 1: So it makes sense that some people feel that way.
Speaker 1: I think the Ronan Pharaoh thing was interesting because we
Speaker 1: had that conversation one afternoon, and then it was that
Speaker 1: same afternoon that Ronan Pharo's article dropped, So he between
Speaker 1: our meeting and him resigning was maybe four or five hours,
Speaker 1: like really know ledge Yeah, um, so you know it was.
Speaker 1: It was overall like really shocking. But to me, that's
Speaker 1: again a power thing. It's a totally different situation if
Speaker 1: one first year massive student who you know, has no
Speaker 1: power whatsoever says you should resign, and it's a totally
Speaker 1: different thing if Ronan Pharaoh comes after you, and he
Speaker 1: had he has a lot of unstake. It's not just
Speaker 1: his job at the Media Leave. He has a lot
Speaker 1: of venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that
Speaker 1: I think must have been in his head to protect.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I don't know what it was
Speaker 1: that made him cave in at that moment. It's easy
Speaker 1: to think about margin a lie. People who speak up
Speaker 1: in these situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers
Speaker 1: being pretty scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength
Speaker 1: from the courage of other women and girls on the continent.
Speaker 1: The fear I was feeling was actually from my mom,
Speaker 1: because she didn't want me to write the article. And
Speaker 1: I don't like disagreeing with my mom, but we just
Speaker 1: did on this particular issue, and she was coming from
Speaker 1: a perspective of fear or trying to take care of
Speaker 1: her baby that she sent to America to study. Like
Speaker 1: you know, that she was scared that something might happened
Speaker 1: to my degree, or that I might lose my visa
Speaker 1: or something and not be able to finish. But I
Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't have that fear so much. And
Speaker 1: I had just happened to be reading a really amazing
Speaker 1: book called Beneath the Timer and Tree, which is bus
Speaker 1: to say of CNN about the Baco Iran Bring Back
Speaker 1: our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of courage
Speaker 1: there was so wild that it just so happened that
Speaker 1: this is all happening at the same time, and I'm
Speaker 1: seeing myself as such a small player and seeing the
Speaker 1: thing that I want to do is not that big
Speaker 1: compared to some of the things that these girls went
Speaker 1: through and some of the things that they fought for
Speaker 1: against literal terrorists. And I was like, Okay, if they
Speaker 1: have this kind of courage to downd and with a
Speaker 1: gun to their face and not change their religion because
Speaker 1: it's what they believe in, then if I believe in
Speaker 1: this thing, then you know, the least I can do
Speaker 1: is say it with my chest, you know. Um. So
Speaker 1: that was how I was feeling. So I was actually
Speaker 1: feeling like kind of empowered inspired while I was writing it.
Speaker 1: I sometimes describe myself as a radical feminist, but there's
Speaker 1: nothing radical about it. It's just that the word feminists
Speaker 1: sometimes seems radical to people. But I just am a
Speaker 1: product of so many amazing women that it's not shocking
Speaker 1: that I search for even more inspiration from other women
Speaker 1: on the continent, around the world. After her letter calling
Speaker 1: for Eto to resign was published, things got rough for Ottawa.
Speaker 1: So what was the climate like for you at M
Speaker 1: I t after you published your piece? Who um it sucked?
Speaker 1: I mean the very next day or the day after
Speaker 1: I published this article, Like a website comes out saying
Speaker 1: we support your retail, and it's signed by like, you know,
Speaker 1: pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and
Speaker 1: it's signed by all, you know, my colleagues and all
Speaker 1: these people, and it's a direct response to my one article.
Speaker 1: And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting,
Speaker 1: you know, some not nice comments, but I was able
Speaker 1: to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it
Speaker 1: really highlated to me how fearful people can get when
Speaker 1: you speak the truth, or when you say your own truth.
Speaker 1: Because for me, a whole website springing up with like
Speaker 1: it's signed with all these leaders of names just because
Speaker 1: one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and
Speaker 1: that student has no power. Like I don't know why
Speaker 1: there was so much fear or so much anger or
Speaker 1: so much defense because nobody else there was lots of
Speaker 1: articles about it. There's lots of articles that were very
Speaker 1: nonpartisan and saying what happened, But nobody asked for him
Speaker 1: to be resigned to resign except me. And it's almost
Speaker 1: as if like that one statement and of that one article,
Speaker 1: like it was like a way through the Media Lab
Speaker 1: and everyone was like pushing back as if what I
Speaker 1: said might sort of break the whole media lab or
Speaker 1: make it fall apart um and some people until today,
Speaker 1: I think it's my fault, like for sure, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do about that, and I'm not
Speaker 1: going to sort of trying to panda to those people.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, it just showed me. It really
Speaker 1: taught me the power of words. We'll be right back
Speaker 1: after this quick break, and we're back by establishing financial
Speaker 1: relationships with respective organizations like m I t Epstein got
Speaker 1: powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, protection and most importantly,
Speaker 1: reputational redemption. Once you've got the protection of that kind
Speaker 1: of power, it can be hard to penetrate power. Powerful friends,
Speaker 1: powerful names, powerful money. All of it makes it harder
Speaker 1: for people who exist outside of that power to speak
Speaker 1: out about bad behavior. Why do you think the media
Speaker 1: lab overlooked Epstein's crimes? Do you think it was just
Speaker 1: the money and they didn't care where it came from,
Speaker 1: or do you think it was something else. I know
Speaker 1: that some people knew and some people didn't know, So
Speaker 1: I can really only speak for the person that I
Speaker 1: know for sure knew, which is Joey, and the rest
Speaker 1: I don't know, and you know he he wielded a
Speaker 1: lot of power in this lab. We do know for
Speaker 1: a fact that there were people or who who, including
Speaker 1: my advisor Ethans Docomen, who spoke out and said that
Speaker 1: this is not a good idea and said that we
Speaker 1: shouldn't take money from Epstein, and they were ignored. I mean,
Speaker 1: the hard core truth is that money is power, and
Speaker 1: there is a massive incentive to ignore certain problems or
Speaker 1: ethics if you're going to get power by ignoring them.
Speaker 1: I think the other thing to remember with the Epstein
Speaker 1: situation is that he wasn't giving the media that much
Speaker 1: money anyway. I think a lot of the money that
Speaker 1: was and m I T report just came out on
Speaker 1: the funding issue and we found out that Joey was
Speaker 1: actually trying to secure much bigger part of funding for
Speaker 1: his own venture capital funds UM, So huge incentive to
Speaker 1: ignore what was sort of on the surface UM. And
Speaker 1: then the other thing is just I don't think men
Speaker 1: get it all the time, like I don't think I
Speaker 1: sometimes I really think that some people thought that it's
Speaker 1: just not that big a deal because they have no
Speaker 1: understanding on what that relationship even in and of itself.
Speaker 1: But without money means for the victims of Epstein's they
Speaker 1: have no idea how this consolidation of power represses the
Speaker 1: victims in silence system. It almost sounds like Epstein was
Speaker 1: trying to use his money to kind of create this
Speaker 1: cover so that if anybody ever tried to call him
Speaker 1: out on his actions, he could just be like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: look at all these powerful influential men I surround myself with.
Speaker 1: In some ways was really smart because he didn't actually
Speaker 1: have that much money. It wasn't a Bill Gates, but
Speaker 1: had enough to sort of know the right people and
Speaker 1: actually build a social circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen,
Speaker 1: and it was so strong that everybody wanted to be
Speaker 1: a part of it. And it was Epstein's name that
Speaker 1: you have to know to get sort of in that circle.
Speaker 1: Ottawa still thinks highly of m I T but the
Speaker 1: backlash she faced for speaking out against Joto showed her
Speaker 1: that things are not always as shiny as they look
Speaker 1: from the outside. And I think the media of you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard because I love this place, like I've had
Speaker 1: a fantastic two years. I've learned so much, I've grown
Speaker 1: so much and I wouldn't change it for anything, But
Speaker 1: I think this experience has just been such an example
Speaker 1: of that because it's so shiny on now outside, like
Speaker 1: it's so glamorous, it's everyone wants to be here. But
Speaker 1: that doesn't that doesn't mean that we don't have issues
Speaker 1: institutional issues with power and race and class and all
Speaker 1: these other things that might make the place so I'm
Speaker 1: not so amazing. Do you think that there should be
Speaker 1: more scrutiny on other powerful men who had like financial
Speaker 1: entanglements with Epstein. I feel like a lot of them
Speaker 1: have sort of been able to skirt public scrutiny and
Speaker 1: like public question asking about out what what exactly their
Speaker 1: dealings with this person were. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you know from the out because I mean,
Speaker 1: because I can't speak for much more than M I T.
Speaker 1: But I know, you know, even Harvard had relations with
Speaker 1: took a lot of money from Epstein, but they just
Speaker 1: declined to even talk about it, and so it just
Speaker 1: they sort of took the mom path and everyone forgot
Speaker 1: about it, whereas at M I T. It was so
Speaker 1: wildly talked about. And Epstein's network is so extensive that
Speaker 1: going through every single man who interacted with him, or
Speaker 1: woman for that for that matter, Actually who interacted with
Speaker 1: him and took money from him, and what they knew
Speaker 1: and how they knew it is extremely difficult. So I
Speaker 1: don't know how to do that. But there should be
Speaker 1: a way larger conversation around these networks of power, whether
Speaker 1: we isolate individuals within them or not. And I think
Speaker 1: that also has a lot to do with who's willing
Speaker 1: to speak, who's willing to come forward with information, because
Speaker 1: the less, you know, when we don't know anything, all
Speaker 1: we can do is speculate, and they have power, and
Speaker 1: that doesn't really work. So yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: feel like everyone should be held accountable, for sure, but
Speaker 1: it's I don't even know where you start with Epstein.
Speaker 1: You know, I almost wonder if this is part of
Speaker 1: the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his money in so
Speaker 1: many powerful places and hands and institutions that untangling it
Speaker 1: almost seems kind of impossible. Yeah, And I'm a firm
Speaker 1: belief of nothing is impossible, but you know, there's such
Speaker 1: a close link. And I'm not saying that anyone who
Speaker 1: took his money did anything more than that, but there
Speaker 1: is you know, especially with the people who are closer
Speaker 1: with him, there is a link with those people in victims,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think right now what needs to
Speaker 1: happen is that the victims narratives need to be centered,
Speaker 1: you know, and the people who have been hurt by
Speaker 1: Epstein need to have space to say, you know, this
Speaker 1: is how was hurt, this is feeling, this is what
Speaker 1: I need to recover and sort of if they feel
Speaker 1: up for these are the people who hurt me. Beyond Epstein,
Speaker 1: it's hard to admit that people and institutions that made
Speaker 1: a lot to us are actually fostering abusive behavior. Joy
Speaker 1: was a beloved figure at m I T, and that
Speaker 1: made it that much harder for the community to reckon
Speaker 1: with the fact that he enabled, benefited from, and covered
Speaker 1: up for an abuser. Joey himself was a figure of
Speaker 1: so much awe and inspiration and resource to the media
Speaker 1: lab students that and and faculty that people didn't want
Speaker 1: to believe that, you know, he had done this thing
Speaker 1: that they didn't agree with, And it was much easier
Speaker 1: if we just said, okay, let's sweep it under the
Speaker 1: rug and move on and pretend like this never happened.
Speaker 1: And so I understand that to some degree, but you know,
Speaker 1: the world is like constantly changing, and I think if
Speaker 1: you're sort of always a person on the bottom of
Speaker 1: the ladder in certain society, is like it's always it
Speaker 1: always comes from the bottom up, Like it's always that
Speaker 1: change in institution is never going to happen by the
Speaker 1: people who for who the institution is working. And the
Speaker 1: media was working for me, it wasn't you know, I
Speaker 1: was having a great time, but I didn't have the
Speaker 1: same feelings about the director that most of my naysay
Speaker 1: has had. You know, I wasn't actually giving up I
Speaker 1: don't know, funding for a specific project by calling him out.
Speaker 1: So in other ways it was easier for me than
Speaker 1: I you know, I get why it was easier for
Speaker 1: me than other people. But for a place that calls
Speaker 1: itself the future Factory, for a place that prides itself
Speaker 1: in imagining and creating the future literally, like, the standard
Speaker 1: has got to be higher, and it's got to be higher,
Speaker 1: not from a tech perspective, but from a human perspective too.
Speaker 1: And so this is where it starts to look like
Speaker 1: the Academy Awards. And so at first I want to
Speaker 1: invite up the winners of the two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: thousand dollar Disobedience Award, UH the second largest cast prize
Speaker 1: in m I T. I would say after the Lemlson
Speaker 1: Award for Innovation, So Taranto Burke and Sherry Martz and
Speaker 1: beth N Mclawso and pas come up with this award.
Speaker 1: We are recognizing their leadership and dedication in amplifying the
Speaker 1: voices of survivors of sexual violence and harassment, fomending positive
Speaker 1: change towards gender equality, and demonstrating defiance in the face
Speaker 1: of oppression and ampathy. Thank you very much. In m
Speaker 1: I T started the Disobedience Award, a yearly award given
Speaker 1: to people in tech who speak truth to power. The
Speaker 1: award came with a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
Speaker 1: and no strings attached prize in it was awarded to
Speaker 1: me to Creator Toronto Burke, beth Ann McLaughlin and share
Speaker 1: A Mart as representatives of me Too and the Me
Speaker 1: to Instep movement that highlighted people speaking up against sexual
Speaker 1: harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass orb
Speaker 1: and in a particularly disgusting piece of irony because of
Speaker 1: his financial contributions to m I T. Convicted sex offender
Speaker 1: and serial predator Epstein, received a replica of that very
Speaker 1: award that same year. Two. I know you're infuriated now,
Speaker 1: but this is where the story gets a little bit brighter.
Speaker 1: My friend, Sabrina HERCYSA, is the kind of person I
Speaker 1: hope that you all have in your lives. Mentor doesn't
Speaker 1: really cover just how impactful she's been in my own life.
Speaker 1: She's a human rights technologist and the founder of b
Speaker 1: Bold Media, and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting other women
Speaker 1: or speaking truth to power, even when she gets shipped
Speaker 1: for it. Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, but she
Speaker 1: did read her story. Friend of mine set me a
Speaker 1: link to Ottawa's off ed in the uh M I
Speaker 1: T Student newspaper, and when I read it, I thought
Speaker 1: it was so At first, I thought this was so
Speaker 1: beautifully written, and it was written from a place of
Speaker 1: love and um and leadership, and from clearly this was
Speaker 1: the voice of someone who cares deeply, not just for
Speaker 1: women and children, but also for a community. And then
Speaker 1: I saw the ark of how her op ed was
Speaker 1: being received in m tea community and in the broader
Speaker 1: technology community, and that is when things started to not
Speaker 1: sit well with me in our en bridging our our
Speaker 1: start women in technology community. I saw Ottawa's op ed
Speaker 1: being received as like, this is a grave call for
Speaker 1: a student, but it also I saw a lot of
Speaker 1: echoing of helplessness from very powerful women in technology and
Speaker 1: a lot of ringing of hands and a lot of oh,
Speaker 1: what do we do now? Or I feel hopeless? And
Speaker 1: when I read Ottawa's op ed, I felt the opposite
Speaker 1: of hopeless. I felt hopeful. I felt, Oh, if this
Speaker 1: is what someone could say with so much to lose
Speaker 1: and so much on the line, then anything is possible.
Speaker 1: And then I saw absorbed in the broader public conversation
Speaker 1: around Epstein and I he and I saw Ottawa's being
Speaker 1: demonized and being framed her. I saw Ottawa's public leadership
Speaker 1: being framed as a problem instead of a blessing, and
Speaker 1: I was not okay watching that. I saw you know,
Speaker 1: Reddit forums where people were like, if she doesn't like it,
Speaker 1: she can go back to Africa. I saw a lot
Speaker 1: of hate being speed on Twitter. I saw so like
Speaker 1: the further the rings of influence went out, the more
Speaker 1: I saw this woman's brave call of public leadership being received,
Speaker 1: how most black women who are moral, who practice moral
Speaker 1: courage in public spaces being received And I was not
Speaker 1: okay with that. And you know me, and you know
Speaker 1: I've walked through fires in the past where that was
Speaker 1: the art that played out, and I could knew I
Speaker 1: could not, in good content just say that um do
Speaker 1: nothing and be okay with that, or staying nothing and
Speaker 1: do it and be okay with that. More, there are
Speaker 1: no girls on the internet after this quick break and
Speaker 1: we're back, even though they had never met. Sabrina was
Speaker 1: inspired by Ottawa's actions at m I T. She remembered
Speaker 1: all the times in her own career that she's both
Speaker 1: got against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it.
Speaker 1: Speaking out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't rewatch
Speaker 1: the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her
Speaker 1: being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right,
Speaker 1: even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact
Speaker 1: same thing. And while his reporting was a big part
Speaker 1: of why Edo stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was
Speaker 1: risking his personal safety by speaking up. It was Ottawa.
Speaker 1: The thing about this that really struck me was the
Speaker 1: not just the the vulnerability of her visibility, like when
Speaker 1: she did speak at that step up and speak out
Speaker 1: and say something she was met with not even note,
Speaker 1: no support, but with a lot of hatred and anger.
Speaker 1: But the invisibility of her leadership. When a white guy
Speaker 1: says the same thing that she said and he's not
Speaker 1: even a part of the m I T community, his
Speaker 1: safety grownan girls safety was never going in question. UM.
Speaker 1: And I wasn't okay with watching yet another pattern of
Speaker 1: someone outside of a community and institution with prestige be
Speaker 1: validated as a legitimate voice. I didn't want to be
Speaker 1: I didn't want my silence to be complicit in continuing
Speaker 1: that pattern. Sabrina thought that Ottawasha get some kind of
Speaker 1: recognition per actions at m I T. That's when Sabrina
Speaker 1: at the idea for the Bolt Prize. M I T
Speaker 1: has this thing called the Disobedience Prise. It is a
Speaker 1: two hundred fifty dollar cash award, no strings, attack given
Speaker 1: to social change leaders who speak truth power and practice
Speaker 1: moral leadership and ethics. And I thought m I T
Speaker 1: has no right to say what ethical leadership looks like
Speaker 1: if they are letting this UM man stay in this
Speaker 1: role if they're letting this happen to young black women
Speaker 1: in their community. So I was like, Hey, I have
Speaker 1: a voice and I have power, and I can do
Speaker 1: something and I can say something. I wanted this young
Speaker 1: woman to know that I see her, so uh. And
Speaker 1: then I was like, you know what, why don't I
Speaker 1: give you an award? So I said, would it? Would
Speaker 1: it be okay if I crowdfunded a leadership prize for you?
Speaker 1: And she was like, that would be really slay. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. I wrote a letter um that you
Speaker 1: see on both price dot com where I said that
Speaker 1: you know, I do not know her, but I admire
Speaker 1: her courage and um that I wasn't okay. Why change
Speaker 1: a young black woman speak up and lead with courage
Speaker 1: and um and not only not be seen but also
Speaker 1: be harmed for it. I think if we need to
Speaker 1: there's the world as it is and the world as
Speaker 1: it should be, and if we want to build the
Speaker 1: world as it should be, that we need to reframe
Speaker 1: what leadership looks like so that when these these events happen,
Speaker 1: people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors.
Speaker 1: They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to use my voice and my power
Speaker 1: and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from
Speaker 1: blame to leadership, from the world as it is to
Speaker 1: the world that it should be, and that it is
Speaker 1: not just her right to speak out protect women in
Speaker 1: her community, but also it's within all of our abilities
Speaker 1: to speak out and do the same thing. The other
Speaker 1: piece that I was that did not sit well with
Speaker 1: me was watching really powerful people that we both know
Speaker 1: not recognize their own power and agencies. So I wanted,
Speaker 1: I I believe and the power of invitation, and I
Speaker 1: don't believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice
Speaker 1: or ignorance, but the fact that an opportunity for them
Speaker 1: to participate in something different and transformative wasn't there. So
Speaker 1: I decided to create it. We are going to refashion
Speaker 1: the Disobedience Prize and we're going to make it the
Speaker 1: Bowld Prize. And I called it the Bowld Prize for
Speaker 1: three specific reasons. One, when Ethan's acrament person announced and
Speaker 1: his thing, that's when I was like, someone should give
Speaker 1: him an award. The second thing. In Ottawa's piece, she
Speaker 1: uses the phrase I stand by my advisor is Ethan's
Speaker 1: acraments or advisor. She wrote, I stand by my advisor
Speaker 1: and his bold decision to step down, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that word bold. And then three, when I was in
Speaker 1: a situation where I was speaking out against sexual misconduct
Speaker 1: and racial injustice, one of the people who are complicit
Speaker 1: in covering it up had the audacity to call me bold,
Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, Yeah, you know, I am bold,
Speaker 1: and maybe this wouldn't be so hard if more people were.
Speaker 1: M I t s Media Lab is called the future factory.
Speaker 1: But do we even want a future designed by powerful
Speaker 1: people that would look the other way when it comes
Speaker 1: to abuse? What kind of future would that leave us?
Speaker 1: With the choices that m I T made to um
Speaker 1: enable Epstein and being complicit and covering for a sexual predator,
Speaker 1: those deliberate decisions and choice that were made outside of
Speaker 1: a moral compass. And so two somehow envelope that into
Speaker 1: like they get to be leaders someone ethics look like,
Speaker 1: and not only just what ethics look like, but what
Speaker 1: the future can it can be in a hole. I
Speaker 1: don't want a future imagine by people who participate in
Speaker 1: systems like so. I want to build a future with
Speaker 1: leaders like Ottawa, who Kimball, who who not only make
Speaker 1: choices to do the heart, see something hard, to do
Speaker 1: it anyway, but are willing to absorb the blowback that
Speaker 1: comes with it because it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over for Ottawa as the inaugural
Speaker 1: recipient of the Bull Prize. The average donation was seventy
Speaker 1: I was just so in all. I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, thank you so much. But not just because
Speaker 1: I mean, this was a stranger and not just any SARTs.
Speaker 1: She's a black woman as well, and had just somehow
Speaker 1: like seen my pain from far away or seeing the struggle,
Speaker 1: and was like, I need to do something for this woman.
Speaker 1: And so that was the true like prize for me.
Speaker 1: It was like how many people came together to to
Speaker 1: my voice when I had felt for a long time
Speaker 1: that I was on the outside of things. I feel
Speaker 1: just for journalistic integrity purposes, I should say. And one
Speaker 1: of the fun I'm one of the donators of that,
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I I agree. I thought the
Speaker 1: idea that Sabrina, who is this has been a really
Speaker 1: powerful force in my own life just personally. UM would
Speaker 1: reach out to you like that. I thought that was
Speaker 1: so beautiful and it really goes back to what you
Speaker 1: were saying at the beginning of our interview about sort
Speaker 1: of being lifted up by this community of black women
Speaker 1: and lifting them up as well, Like it's just it
Speaker 1: is really special. And I think it was important for me,
Speaker 1: even though you know, you and I had never met,
Speaker 1: it was important for me to let you know that
Speaker 1: people out there had your back. We were rooting for you,
Speaker 1: like watching what you were doing, like your what your
Speaker 1: your bravery and your courage reverberates. You know, you never
Speaker 1: know who is you never know who is going to
Speaker 1: be seeing what you did, and that going to be
Speaker 1: the reason why they speak up. Thank you. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that's also been another like big thing that I've
Speaker 1: gained is you just never know whose life you're going
Speaker 1: to touch or who's who like way your words will reach.
Speaker 1: And there's been so many like random people who were
Speaker 1: you know, saying what you're saying, like oh, you gave
Speaker 1: me the courage to do this, or you give me
Speaker 1: the courage to write this and to say this and whatever.
Speaker 1: And I've been like, Okay, like this can be a
Speaker 1: movement like the Bold Prize can be a movement, like
Speaker 1: it can be something that people aspired to get. I
Speaker 1: didn't have a vendetta against Joey like personally either, So
Speaker 1: it wasn't like I wanted him fired or to resign
Speaker 1: and would only be happy once that happened. Because clearly
Speaker 1: this issue was deeply structural within M I t as well.
Speaker 1: So I felt vindicated after, like maybe you know, time
Speaker 1: after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with
Speaker 1: the letters support and you know, by people encouraging me
Speaker 1: to keep speaking my mind, but we still have so
Speaker 1: much work to do, Like as an institution here, what's
Speaker 1: your advice for other women about speaking truth to power
Speaker 1: even when it's tough. The first is, I really think
Speaker 1: it is a lonely process and it isn't easy. I've
Speaker 1: you know, I've learned that firsthand. And I think I
Speaker 1: decide sound like kind of mythical, but I think drawing
Speaker 1: power from others before you do what you need to
Speaker 1: do is so important because you're gonna need so much
Speaker 1: energy to keep going and to like not backtrack and
Speaker 1: what you said because people don't agree with you, um,
Speaker 1: and so like if that's reading or if that's talking
Speaker 1: to actual people, or if that's listening to Lizzo, like
Speaker 1: literally drawing power from other women in history and time
Speaker 1: because there's so many who have done the thing that
Speaker 1: you want to do is so important, gives you stamina.
Speaker 1: Institutions like M I T are powerful, but so are women.
Speaker 1: So is community. Women being in community with each other
Speaker 1: and lifting each other up and inspiring each other to
Speaker 1: speak our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems,
Speaker 1: and women can envision bolder futures and brighter realities when
Speaker 1: we come together. There are no girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Was created by Me bridget Tad. It's a production of
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host bridget Tad. For
Speaker 1: more podcast from My Heart, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.