1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against miners, 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: on the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. Last week, Bill Gates 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: and Melinda Gates announced they're divorcing. According to The Wall 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: Street Journal, the couple has actually been in the process 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: of divorcing for two years. One reason is Melinda Gates 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: is reported discomfort with Bill Gates's dealings with convicted sex 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. The New York Times reported the beginning 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: inn Bill Gates met with Jeffrey Epstein on numerous occasions, 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: including at least three times at Epstein's Manhattan townhouse and 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: at least once staying late into the night. And keep 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: in mind this would have been years after Epstein pled 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: guilty and was convicted of sexually abusing a fourteen year 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: old girl in two thousand eight. Bill Gates has sp 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: exwoman told The Times that he met with Epstein to 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: discuss philanthropy, saying Bill Gates regrets ever meeting with Epstein 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: and recognizes that it was an error and judgment to 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: do so. So I won't pretend to know what's going 21 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: on here, but I do know that there are many 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: powerful men in tech who had connections with Epstein that 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: have yet to face much scrutiny, let alone any accountability 24 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: for their choice to have dealings with a sexual abuser. 25 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: And I also know that we don't spend near enough 26 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: time talking about the fact that Ottawa Tumboya, a black 27 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: woman and m I T student, was one of the 28 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: first to call out the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and 29 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: the tech world, setting a powerful example. Let's revisit Ottawa's story. 30 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: You've probably heard about American financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled 31 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: guilty and was convicted in two thousand and eight of 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: procuring an underage girl for sex. In July of last year, 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: he was arrested on charges of sex trafficking and conspiracy 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: to engage in sex trafficking. He was found dead in 35 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: prison in August. In addition to his connection to powerful 36 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: political figures like Ill Clinton, Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, 37 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: and credibly accused rapist President Donald Trump, Epstein also had 38 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: deep connections to the tech world despite being a convicted 39 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: sex offender. On September seven, Ronan Pharaoh published an expose 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: in The New Yorker that found that the Massachusetts Institute 41 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: of Technology or m i T, had a deeper fundraising 42 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: relationship with Epstein than it had previously acknowledged, even as 43 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: officials knew he was a convicted sex offender, and that 44 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: the university went to great lengths to cover it up. 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: Now here's just some of what Pharaoh found. Even though 46 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: Epstein was disqualified and m i t s official donor database, 47 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: the Media Lab continued to accept money from him, consulted 48 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: him about the use of funds, and by marking his 49 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: contributions as anonymous, avoided disclosing their full extent. Both publicly 50 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: and within the university. Epstein appeared to act as a 51 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: go between for wealthy donors like Bill Gates to pump 52 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: money into m i T. According to Pharaoh, m i 53 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: t s efforts to conceal Epstein's connections to the university 54 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: went so far that staff referred to Epstein as Voldemort 55 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: or he who must not be named. Whistle Blower. Sidney Swinson, 56 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: a former m i T development associate, told Pharaoh that 57 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: the lab's leadership made it explicit, even in her earliest 58 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: days with them, that Epstein's donations had to be kept secret. 59 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: Staffords knew about m I t s relationship with Epstein. 60 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: Prominent faculty adviser Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's 61 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: Piece was published. Joy Eto, the director of the m 62 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: I T Media Lab, resigned in the latest fallout connected 63 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: to Jeffrey Epstein. M I T is opening an investigation 64 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: into its ties to the finance You're in convicted sex offender. 65 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: The announcement came just one day after The New Yorker 66 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: revealed that m I T S Media Lab was attempting 67 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: to conceal donations from Epstein. Now there's a lot to 68 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: say about Jeffrey Epstein, but this story isn't really about him. 69 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: It's about courage, community, and power. We hear a lot 70 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: about Epstein's horrific crimes, and most people credit Roman Pharaoh 71 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: with bringing their full scope to light. But even before 72 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: Rodan Pharaoh's piece was published, women in the m I 73 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: T community spoke up, and we should honor their voices too. 74 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: To the future. M I T S Media Lab a 75 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: place that follows crazy ideas wherever they may leave. We 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: get to think about the future. What does the world 77 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: look like ten years, twenty years, thirty years, what should 78 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: it look like? The M I T Media Lab is 79 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: an important place CBS even dubbed at the future Factory, 80 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: and it's where technologists Ottawatumboya knew she had to be. Yeah. 81 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: I came here because it is sort of a place 82 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: for misfits, the Media Lab. It is in the disciplinary 83 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: and has sort of the intersection of tech and art 84 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: and design, and that was what I was looking for 85 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: when I graduated from undergrad UM. I worked for a 86 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: couple of years back and I will be where I'm 87 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: from and became a VR developer on the side on 88 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: top of my job and needed to I was sort 89 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: of like looking for somewhere to buy myself. UM, and 90 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: I've heard about the Media Lab and how sort of 91 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: civic minded. One of the groups was called Civic Media 92 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: and our motto is a tech for social change and 93 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: I was like, well, that sounds like exactly what I 94 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: want to do. Yeah, so I applied and then it 95 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: worked out. Ottawa was raised and shaped by a community 96 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: of strong, resilient women and that upbringing has been a 97 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: big part of how she shows up to the world today. 98 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. I mean my work is always about women, 99 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: and it's always about it is always about women in Africa. 100 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a bit more general than than that. But 101 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: I have worked in my robe my whole life. I've 102 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: studied away from my robe, but always try to bring 103 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: back my research and the questions that I'm asking two 104 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: home and the woman that I've worked with in informal 105 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: sentiments in Kenya. But you know, that's just my research. 106 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: But how I approached studying and how I approach being 107 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: in big institutions is definitely sort of inspired by how 108 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: I was raised by my mom and my grandma and 109 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: I have like a thousand aunts. Um grew up in 110 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: something of the matriarchy, I would say, so, yeah for sure. 111 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: So you were raised in a community of strong, badass women. Yeah, 112 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: and like really scary ones too, so like we look 113 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: at them with a lot of love and admiration but 114 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: also a lot of fear. Audible works with virtual reality, 115 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: so that means she has to be able to imagine 116 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: worlds that haven't even been seeing yet. It's a spirit 117 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: that drives her both personally and professionally. Do you think 118 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: that that sort of work has helped you kind of 119 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: imagine a future where things can be better than they are. Yeah, 120 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: I think so, I would say so. I think I've 121 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: always sort of had that in me before I started 122 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: playing on R and and and and I think those 123 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: projects are sort of things that are already within me, 124 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: as opposed to things that have made me think a 125 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just 126 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men, 127 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: and actually my grand both my grandpa's are fantastic men 128 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: and have been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining 129 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: Kenya differently that, yeah, I would say, it's totally in me. 130 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: And you know, when I wrote that, it wasn't even 131 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: so much that I was so when I was sort 132 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: of talking against my director. It wasn't even so much 133 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: that I was imagining a different future. It was more 134 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: like this current present isn't something is off, something is 135 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up 136 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: is if somebody's not right, you fix it or you 137 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: say something about it, but you don't sit around and 138 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: do nothing. As a grad student in the media lab, 139 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: Ottawa published a piece in the Tech m I T 140 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: Student publication at the university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it, 141 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: she called for the resignation of Joy Ito, the head 142 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: of the m I T Media Lab. Her piece band 143 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would go on to echo her 144 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: points in his New Yorker expose on September seven. The 145 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: only difference is Ottawa call for it to resign, and 146 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: after a Fare's piece was published, he actually did Did 147 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: you ever feel like people have an easier time taking 148 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: the situation seriously when it's purported by a white man? 149 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, for sure. And I appreciate Ronan Farwer's 150 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: work a lot, and we actually got to meet him 151 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: and we kind of talked about this. But you know, 152 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: Senior Spence, and she was the real hero of the story. 153 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean, she was the actual whistle blower. And sometimes 154 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: people treat me like I was a whistle blower when 155 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: I didn't whistle blow anything. I just have the same 156 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: information that everybody else had and sort of said my 157 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: opinion about it. And for sure, I mean, even on 158 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: the comments on my article, like there were so many 159 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: comments I had to do with my race and ethnicity 160 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: and where I'm from, as opposed to, you know, not 161 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: agreeing with me and my ideas. It was very much like, well, 162 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: you're not from America, you don't know what we're talking about. 163 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: And then Ronan farre writes this article, and of course 164 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: everyone just jump ship. And you know, I totally understood 165 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: my director resigning after that. I was just more shocked 166 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: of how many people said, oh, we were wrong after 167 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: the article, because to me, it's kind of like we 168 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: already had that information beforehand, and people had made up 169 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: those decisions, their decisions to support him at that point. 170 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: And it's only when a powerful and not just white man, 171 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: a powerful white man writes about it that it's enough 172 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: to sort of sway people's opinions or feelings were at 173 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: least they're vocal ones. So I heard an NPR interview 174 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: where you described your meeting with Edo, where he basically said, 175 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: I agree with all the things that you're saying, all 176 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: the things that you say I did. I totally did. 177 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose 178 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: my job over it. Yeah, And there were a lot 179 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: of people who felt that way, and a lot of 180 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: people will still feel that way. Because he kind of 181 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: was the heart of the Media Lab and a lot 182 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: of people depended on him for their projects, for funding, 183 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: for you know, other people were coming into the media 184 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: Lab for the first time under his lead a shift, 185 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: So it makes sense that some people feel that way. 186 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: I think the Ronan Pharaoh thing was interesting because we 187 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: had that conversation one afternoon, and then it was that 188 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,479 Speaker 1: same afternoon that Ronan Pharo's article dropped, So he between 189 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: our meeting and him resigning was maybe four or five hours, 190 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: like really know ledge Yeah, um, so you know it was. 191 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: It was overall like really shocking. But to me, that's 192 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: again a power thing. It's a totally different situation if 193 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: one first year massive student who you know, has no 194 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: power whatsoever says you should resign, and it's a totally 195 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: different thing if Ronan Pharaoh comes after you, and he 196 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: had he has a lot of unstake. It's not just 197 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: his job at the Media Leave. He has a lot 198 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: of venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that 199 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: I think must have been in his head to protect. 200 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I don't know what it was 201 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: that made him cave in at that moment. It's easy 202 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: to think about margin a lie. People who speak up 203 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: in these situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers 204 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: being pretty scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength 205 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: from the courage of other women and girls on the continent. 206 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: The fear I was feeling was actually from my mom, 207 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: because she didn't want me to write the article. And 208 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: I don't like disagreeing with my mom, but we just 209 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: did on this particular issue, and she was coming from 210 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: a perspective of fear or trying to take care of 211 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: her baby that she sent to America to study. Like 212 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: you know, that she was scared that something might happened 213 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: to my degree, or that I might lose my visa 214 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: or something and not be able to finish. But I 215 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't have that fear so much. And 216 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: I had just happened to be reading a really amazing 217 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,359 Speaker 1: book called Beneath the Timer and Tree, which is bus 218 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: to say of CNN about the Baco Iran Bring Back 219 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of courage 220 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: there was so wild that it just so happened that 221 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: this is all happening at the same time, and I'm 222 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: seeing myself as such a small player and seeing the 223 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: thing that I want to do is not that big 224 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: compared to some of the things that these girls went 225 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: through and some of the things that they fought for 226 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: against literal terrorists. And I was like, Okay, if they 227 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: have this kind of courage to downd and with a 228 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: gun to their face and not change their religion because 229 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: it's what they believe in, then if I believe in 230 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: this thing, then you know, the least I can do 231 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: is say it with my chest, you know. Um. So 232 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: that was how I was feeling. So I was actually 233 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: feeling like kind of empowered inspired while I was writing it. 234 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: I sometimes describe myself as a radical feminist, but there's 235 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: nothing radical about it. It's just that the word feminists 236 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: sometimes seems radical to people. But I just am a 237 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: product of so many amazing women that it's not shocking 238 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: that I search for even more inspiration from other women 239 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: on the continent, around the world. After her letter calling 240 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: for Eto to resign was published, things got rough for Ottawa. 241 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: So what was the climate like for you at M 242 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: I t after you published your piece? Who um it sucked? 243 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: I mean the very next day or the day after 244 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: I published this article, Like a website comes out saying 245 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: we support your retail, and it's signed by like, you know, 246 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and 247 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: it's signed by all, you know, my colleagues and all 248 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: these people, and it's a direct response to my one article. 249 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting, 250 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: you know, some not nice comments, but I was able 251 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it 252 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: really highlated to me how fearful people can get when 253 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: you speak the truth, or when you say your own truth. 254 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: Because for me, a whole website springing up with like 255 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: it's signed with all these leaders of names just because 256 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and 257 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: that student has no power. Like I don't know why 258 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: there was so much fear or so much anger or 259 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: so much defense because nobody else there was lots of 260 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: articles about it. There's lots of articles that were very 261 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: nonpartisan and saying what happened, But nobody asked for him 262 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: to be resigned to resign except me. And it's almost 263 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: as if like that one statement and of that one article, 264 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: like it was like a way through the Media Lab 265 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: and everyone was like pushing back as if what I 266 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: said might sort of break the whole media lab or 267 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: make it fall apart um and some people until today, 268 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: I think it's my fault, like for sure, and you know, 269 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do about that, and I'm not 270 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: going to sort of trying to panda to those people. 271 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: But I don't know, it just showed me. It really 272 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: taught me the power of words. We'll be right back 273 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: after this quick break, and we're back by establishing financial 274 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: relationships with respective organizations like m I t Epstein got 275 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, protection and most importantly, 276 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: reputational redemption. Once you've got the protection of that kind 277 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: of power, it can be hard to penetrate power. Powerful friends, 278 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: powerful names, powerful money. All of it makes it harder 279 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: for people who exist outside of that power to speak 280 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: out about bad behavior. Why do you think the media 281 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: lab overlooked Epstein's crimes? Do you think it was just 282 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: the money and they didn't care where it came from, 283 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: or do you think it was something else. I know 284 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: that some people knew and some people didn't know, So 285 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: I can really only speak for the person that I 286 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: know for sure knew, which is Joey, and the rest 287 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, and you know he he wielded a 288 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: lot of power in this lab. We do know for 289 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: a fact that there were people or who who, including 290 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: my advisor Ethans Docomen, who spoke out and said that 291 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: this is not a good idea and said that we 292 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't take money from Epstein, and they were ignored. I mean, 293 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: the hard core truth is that money is power, and 294 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: there is a massive incentive to ignore certain problems or 295 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: ethics if you're going to get power by ignoring them. 296 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: I think the other thing to remember with the Epstein 297 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: situation is that he wasn't giving the media that much 298 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: money anyway. I think a lot of the money that 299 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: was and m I T report just came out on 300 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: the funding issue and we found out that Joey was 301 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: actually trying to secure much bigger part of funding for 302 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: his own venture capital funds UM, So huge incentive to 303 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: ignore what was sort of on the surface UM. And 304 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: then the other thing is just I don't think men 305 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: get it all the time, like I don't think I 306 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: sometimes I really think that some people thought that it's 307 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: just not that big a deal because they have no 308 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: understanding on what that relationship even in and of itself. 309 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: But without money means for the victims of Epstein's they 310 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: have no idea how this consolidation of power represses the 311 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: victims in silence system. It almost sounds like Epstein was 312 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: trying to use his money to kind of create this 313 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: cover so that if anybody ever tried to call him 314 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: out on his actions, he could just be like, oh, well, 315 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: look at all these powerful influential men I surround myself with. 316 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: In some ways was really smart because he didn't actually 317 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: have that much money. It wasn't a Bill Gates, but 318 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: had enough to sort of know the right people and 319 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: actually build a social circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen, 320 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: and it was so strong that everybody wanted to be 321 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: a part of it. And it was Epstein's name that 322 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: you have to know to get sort of in that circle. 323 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: Ottawa still thinks highly of m I T but the 324 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: backlash she faced for speaking out against Joto showed her 325 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: that things are not always as shiny as they look 326 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: from the outside. And I think the media of you know, 327 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: it's hard because I love this place, like I've had 328 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: a fantastic two years. I've learned so much, I've grown 329 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: so much and I wouldn't change it for anything, But 330 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: I think this experience has just been such an example 331 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: of that because it's so shiny on now outside, like 332 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: it's so glamorous, it's everyone wants to be here. But 333 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: that doesn't that doesn't mean that we don't have issues 334 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: institutional issues with power and race and class and all 335 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: these other things that might make the place so I'm 336 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: not so amazing. Do you think that there should be 337 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: more scrutiny on other powerful men who had like financial 338 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: entanglements with Epstein. I feel like a lot of them 339 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: have sort of been able to skirt public scrutiny and 340 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: like public question asking about out what what exactly their 341 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: dealings with this person were. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, 342 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: I think you know from the out because I mean, 343 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: because I can't speak for much more than M I T. 344 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: But I know, you know, even Harvard had relations with 345 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 1: took a lot of money from Epstein, but they just 346 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 1: declined to even talk about it, and so it just 347 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: they sort of took the mom path and everyone forgot 348 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: about it, whereas at M I T. It was so 349 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: wildly talked about. And Epstein's network is so extensive that 350 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: going through every single man who interacted with him, or 351 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: woman for that for that matter, Actually who interacted with 352 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: him and took money from him, and what they knew 353 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: and how they knew it is extremely difficult. So I 354 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: don't know how to do that. But there should be 355 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: a way larger conversation around these networks of power, whether 356 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: we isolate individuals within them or not. And I think 357 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: that also has a lot to do with who's willing 358 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: to speak, who's willing to come forward with information, because 359 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: the less, you know, when we don't know anything, all 360 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: we can do is speculate, and they have power, and 361 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: that doesn't really work. So yeah, I don't know. I 362 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: feel like everyone should be held accountable, for sure, but 363 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: it's I don't even know where you start with Epstein. 364 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: You know, I almost wonder if this is part of 365 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his money in so 366 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: many powerful places and hands and institutions that untangling it 367 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: almost seems kind of impossible. Yeah, And I'm a firm 368 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: belief of nothing is impossible, but you know, there's such 369 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: a close link. And I'm not saying that anyone who 370 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: took his money did anything more than that, but there 371 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: is you know, especially with the people who are closer 372 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: with him, there is a link with those people in victims, 373 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: you know. And I think right now what needs to 374 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: happen is that the victims narratives need to be centered, 375 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, and the people who have been hurt by 376 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: Epstein need to have space to say, you know, this 377 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: is how was hurt, this is feeling, this is what 378 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: I need to recover and sort of if they feel 379 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: up for these are the people who hurt me. Beyond Epstein, 380 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: it's hard to admit that people and institutions that made 381 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: a lot to us are actually fostering abusive behavior. Joy 382 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: was a beloved figure at m I T, and that 383 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: made it that much harder for the community to reckon 384 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: with the fact that he enabled, benefited from, and covered 385 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: up for an abuser. Joey himself was a figure of 386 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: so much awe and inspiration and resource to the media 387 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: lab students that and and faculty that people didn't want 388 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: to believe that, you know, he had done this thing 389 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: that they didn't agree with, And it was much easier 390 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: if we just said, okay, let's sweep it under the 391 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 1: rug and move on and pretend like this never happened. 392 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: And so I understand that to some degree, but you know, 393 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: the world is like constantly changing, and I think if 394 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: you're sort of always a person on the bottom of 395 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: the ladder in certain society, is like it's always it 396 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: always comes from the bottom up, Like it's always that 397 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: change in institution is never going to happen by the 398 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: people who for who the institution is working. And the 399 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: media was working for me, it wasn't you know, I 400 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: was having a great time, but I didn't have the 401 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: same feelings about the director that most of my naysay 402 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: has had. You know, I wasn't actually giving up I 403 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: don't know, funding for a specific project by calling him out. 404 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: So in other ways it was easier for me than 405 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: I you know, I get why it was easier for 406 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: me than other people. But for a place that calls 407 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: itself the future Factory, for a place that prides itself 408 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: in imagining and creating the future literally, like, the standard 409 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: has got to be higher, and it's got to be higher, 410 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: not from a tech perspective, but from a human perspective too. 411 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: And so this is where it starts to look like 412 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: the Academy Awards. And so at first I want to 413 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: invite up the winners of the two hundred and fifty 414 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: thousand dollar Disobedience Award, UH the second largest cast prize 415 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: in m I T. I would say after the Lemlson 416 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: Award for Innovation, So Taranto Burke and Sherry Martz and 417 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: beth N Mclawso and pas come up with this award. 418 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: We are recognizing their leadership and dedication in amplifying the 419 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: voices of survivors of sexual violence and harassment, fomending positive 420 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: change towards gender equality, and demonstrating defiance in the face 421 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: of oppression and ampathy. Thank you very much. In m 422 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: I T started the Disobedience Award, a yearly award given 423 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: to people in tech who speak truth to power. The 424 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: award came with a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars 425 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: and no strings attached prize in it was awarded to 426 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: me to Creator Toronto Burke, beth Ann McLaughlin and share 427 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: A Mart as representatives of me Too and the Me 428 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: to Instep movement that highlighted people speaking up against sexual 429 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass orb 430 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: and in a particularly disgusting piece of irony because of 431 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: his financial contributions to m I T. Convicted sex offender 432 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: and serial predator Epstein, received a replica of that very 433 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: award that same year. Two. I know you're infuriated now, 434 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: but this is where the story gets a little bit brighter. 435 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: My friend, Sabrina HERCYSA, is the kind of person I 436 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: hope that you all have in your lives. Mentor doesn't 437 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: really cover just how impactful she's been in my own life. 438 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: She's a human rights technologist and the founder of b 439 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: Bold Media, and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting other women 440 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: or speaking truth to power, even when she gets shipped 441 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: for it. Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, but she 442 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: did read her story. Friend of mine set me a 443 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: link to Ottawa's off ed in the uh M I 444 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: T Student newspaper, and when I read it, I thought 445 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: it was so At first, I thought this was so 446 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: beautifully written, and it was written from a place of 447 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: love and um and leadership, and from clearly this was 448 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: the voice of someone who cares deeply, not just for 449 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: women and children, but also for a community. And then 450 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: I saw the ark of how her op ed was 451 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: being received in m tea community and in the broader 452 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: technology community, and that is when things started to not 453 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: sit well with me in our en bridging our our 454 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: start women in technology community. I saw Ottawa's op ed 455 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: being received as like, this is a grave call for 456 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: a student, but it also I saw a lot of 457 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: echoing of helplessness from very powerful women in technology and 458 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: a lot of ringing of hands and a lot of oh, 459 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: what do we do now? Or I feel hopeless? And 460 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: when I read Ottawa's op ed, I felt the opposite 461 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: of hopeless. I felt hopeful. I felt, Oh, if this 462 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: is what someone could say with so much to lose 463 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: and so much on the line, then anything is possible. 464 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: And then I saw absorbed in the broader public conversation 465 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: around Epstein and I he and I saw Ottawa's being 466 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: demonized and being framed her. I saw Ottawa's public leadership 467 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: being framed as a problem instead of a blessing, and 468 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: I was not okay watching that. I saw you know, 469 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: Reddit forums where people were like, if she doesn't like it, 470 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: she can go back to Africa. I saw a lot 471 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 1: of hate being speed on Twitter. I saw so like 472 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: the further the rings of influence went out, the more 473 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: I saw this woman's brave call of public leadership being received, 474 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: how most black women who are moral, who practice moral 475 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: courage in public spaces being received And I was not 476 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: okay with that. And you know me, and you know 477 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: I've walked through fires in the past where that was 478 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: the art that played out, and I could knew I 479 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: could not, in good content just say that um do 480 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: nothing and be okay with that, or staying nothing and 481 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 1: do it and be okay with that. More, there are 482 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: no girls on the internet after this quick break and 483 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: we're back, even though they had never met. Sabrina was 484 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: inspired by Ottawa's actions at m I T. She remembered 485 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: all the times in her own career that she's both 486 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: got against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it. 487 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: Speaking out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't rewatch 488 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her 489 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right, 490 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact 491 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: same thing. And while his reporting was a big part 492 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: of why Edo stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was 493 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: risking his personal safety by speaking up. It was Ottawa. 494 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: The thing about this that really struck me was the 495 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: not just the the vulnerability of her visibility, like when 496 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: she did speak at that step up and speak out 497 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: and say something she was met with not even note, 498 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: no support, but with a lot of hatred and anger. 499 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: But the invisibility of her leadership. When a white guy 500 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: says the same thing that she said and he's not 501 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: even a part of the m I T community, his 502 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: safety grownan girls safety was never going in question. UM. 503 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: And I wasn't okay with watching yet another pattern of 504 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: someone outside of a community and institution with prestige be 505 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: validated as a legitimate voice. I didn't want to be 506 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: I didn't want my silence to be complicit in continuing 507 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: that pattern. Sabrina thought that Ottawasha get some kind of 508 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: recognition per actions at m I T. That's when Sabrina 509 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: at the idea for the Bolt Prize. M I T 510 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: has this thing called the Disobedience Prise. It is a 511 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: two hundred fifty dollar cash award, no strings, attack given 512 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: to social change leaders who speak truth power and practice 513 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: moral leadership and ethics. And I thought m I T 514 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: has no right to say what ethical leadership looks like 515 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: if they are letting this UM man stay in this 516 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: role if they're letting this happen to young black women 517 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: in their community. So I was like, Hey, I have 518 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: a voice and I have power, and I can do 519 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: something and I can say something. I wanted this young 520 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: woman to know that I see her, so uh. And 521 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: then I was like, you know what, why don't I 522 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: give you an award? So I said, would it? Would 523 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: it be okay if I crowdfunded a leadership prize for you? 524 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: And she was like, that would be really slay. Thank 525 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: you so much. I wrote a letter um that you 526 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: see on both price dot com where I said that 527 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: you know, I do not know her, but I admire 528 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: her courage and um that I wasn't okay. Why change 529 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: a young black woman speak up and lead with courage 530 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: and um and not only not be seen but also 531 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: be harmed for it. I think if we need to 532 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: there's the world as it is and the world as 533 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: it should be, and if we want to build the 534 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: world as it should be, that we need to reframe 535 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: what leadership looks like so that when these these events happen, 536 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors. 537 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders. 538 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: So I wanted to use my voice and my power 539 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from 540 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: blame to leadership, from the world as it is to 541 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: the world that it should be, and that it is 542 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: not just her right to speak out protect women in 543 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: her community, but also it's within all of our abilities 544 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: to speak out and do the same thing. The other 545 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 1: piece that I was that did not sit well with 546 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: me was watching really powerful people that we both know 547 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: not recognize their own power and agencies. So I wanted, 548 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: I I believe and the power of invitation, and I 549 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: don't believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice 550 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: or ignorance, but the fact that an opportunity for them 551 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: to participate in something different and transformative wasn't there. So 552 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: I decided to create it. We are going to refashion 553 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: the Disobedience Prize and we're going to make it the 554 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: Bowld Prize. And I called it the Bowld Prize for 555 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: three specific reasons. One, when Ethan's acrament person announced and 556 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: his thing, that's when I was like, someone should give 557 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: him an award. The second thing. In Ottawa's piece, she 558 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: uses the phrase I stand by my advisor is Ethan's 559 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: acraments or advisor. She wrote, I stand by my advisor 560 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: and his bold decision to step down, and I was like, oh, 561 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: that word bold. And then three, when I was in 562 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: a situation where I was speaking out against sexual misconduct 563 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: and racial injustice, one of the people who are complicit 564 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: in covering it up had the audacity to call me bold, 565 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, Yeah, you know, I am bold, 566 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: and maybe this wouldn't be so hard if more people were. 567 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: M I t s Media Lab is called the future factory. 568 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: But do we even want a future designed by powerful 569 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: people that would look the other way when it comes 570 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: to abuse? What kind of future would that leave us? 571 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: With the choices that m I T made to um 572 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: enable Epstein and being complicit and covering for a sexual predator, 573 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: those deliberate decisions and choice that were made outside of 574 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: a moral compass. And so two somehow envelope that into 575 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: like they get to be leaders someone ethics look like, 576 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: and not only just what ethics look like, but what 577 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: the future can it can be in a hole. I 578 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: don't want a future imagine by people who participate in 579 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: systems like so. I want to build a future with 580 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: leaders like Ottawa, who Kimball, who who not only make 581 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: choices to do the heart, see something hard, to do 582 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: it anyway, but are willing to absorb the blowback that 583 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: comes with it because it's the right thing to do. 584 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over for Ottawa as the inaugural 585 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: recipient of the Bull Prize. The average donation was seventy 586 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: I was just so in all. I was like, oh 587 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: my god, thank you so much. But not just because 588 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: I mean, this was a stranger and not just any SARTs. 589 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: She's a black woman as well, and had just somehow 590 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: like seen my pain from far away or seeing the struggle, 591 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: and was like, I need to do something for this woman. 592 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: And so that was the true like prize for me. 593 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: It was like how many people came together to to 594 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: my voice when I had felt for a long time 595 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: that I was on the outside of things. I feel 596 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: just for journalistic integrity purposes, I should say. And one 597 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: of the fun I'm one of the donators of that, 598 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: I was, you know, I I agree. I thought the 599 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: idea that Sabrina, who is this has been a really 600 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: powerful force in my own life just personally. UM would 601 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: reach out to you like that. I thought that was 602 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: so beautiful and it really goes back to what you 603 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: were saying at the beginning of our interview about sort 604 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: of being lifted up by this community of black women 605 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: and lifting them up as well, Like it's just it 606 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: is really special. And I think it was important for me, 607 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: even though you know, you and I had never met, 608 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: it was important for me to let you know that 609 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: people out there had your back. We were rooting for you, 610 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: like watching what you were doing, like your what your 611 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: your bravery and your courage reverberates. You know, you never 612 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: know who is you never know who is going to 613 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 1: be seeing what you did, and that going to be 614 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: the reason why they speak up. Thank you. Yeah. I 615 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: think that's also been another like big thing that I've 616 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: gained is you just never know whose life you're going 617 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: to touch or who's who like way your words will reach. 618 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: And there's been so many like random people who were 619 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, saying what you're saying, like oh, you gave 620 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: me the courage to do this, or you give me 621 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: the courage to write this and to say this and whatever. 622 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: And I've been like, Okay, like this can be a 623 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: movement like the Bold Prize can be a movement, like 624 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: it can be something that people aspired to get. I 625 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: didn't have a vendetta against Joey like personally either, So 626 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't like I wanted him fired or to resign 627 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: and would only be happy once that happened. Because clearly 628 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: this issue was deeply structural within M I t as well. 629 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 1: So I felt vindicated after, like maybe you know, time 630 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with 631 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: the letters support and you know, by people encouraging me 632 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: to keep speaking my mind, but we still have so 633 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: much work to do, Like as an institution here, what's 634 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: your advice for other women about speaking truth to power 635 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: even when it's tough. The first is, I really think 636 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: it is a lonely process and it isn't easy. I've 637 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, I've learned that firsthand. And I think I 638 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: decide sound like kind of mythical, but I think drawing 639 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: power from others before you do what you need to 640 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: do is so important because you're gonna need so much 641 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: energy to keep going and to like not backtrack and 642 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: what you said because people don't agree with you, um, 643 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: and so like if that's reading or if that's talking 644 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: to actual people, or if that's listening to Lizzo, like 645 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: literally drawing power from other women in history and time 646 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: because there's so many who have done the thing that 647 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: you want to do is so important, gives you stamina. 648 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: Institutions like M I T are powerful, but so are women. 649 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: So is community. Women being in community with each other 650 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: and lifting each other up and inspiring each other to 651 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: speak our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems, 652 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 1: and women can envision bolder futures and brighter realities when 653 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 1: we come together. There are no girls on the Internet. 654 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: Was created by Me bridget Tad. It's a production of 655 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 656 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato 657 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host bridget Tad. For 658 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: more podcast from My Heart, check out the iHeart Radio app, 659 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.