1
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,960
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.

2
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:20,959
Speaker 1: Never told your protection of I Heart Radio behind the

3
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,240
Speaker 1: Curtains listeners. I kind of just totally forgot the name

4
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:30,720
Speaker 1: of the show. Other show, another show. Yeah, it's kind

5
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,559
Speaker 1: of a dark moment for me. I don't know how

6
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:40,840
Speaker 1: we do have a moment. We did, we did indeed, Um,

7
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 1: So I guess I don't know if you'll have an

8
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,480
Speaker 1: answer for this question right off the top of your head, Samantha,

9
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 1: But is there something through the course of you being

10
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 1: on this show that you've learned that's really shocked you.

11
00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,840
Speaker 1: You've like it can be like a silly thing or

12
00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,240
Speaker 1: about Yeah, I feel like the constantly getting to know

13
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,800
Speaker 1: you and the things that you don't know continue to

14
00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,680
Speaker 1: shock me like that. That's been the thing that's been

15
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 1: a theme. I feel like one of the things that

16
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 1: you've not listened to we did. I think we talked

17
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: about that before the fact that you you confuse sand

18
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,479
Speaker 1: O'Connor with who did you confuse him for? Donna Lewis?

19
00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,160
Speaker 1: Donna Lewis, which made no sense to me. That was

20
00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 1: one of the moments that I at time stopped in

21
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: my head. I was like, Did she just say that

22
00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,440
Speaker 1: to me? Did she just say shed O'Connor and Donna

23
00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 1: Lewis were one? Like, I don't know what to think

24
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,760
Speaker 1: of that, But that wasn't necessarily from the show. I

25
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,640
Speaker 1: feel like I learned so many things. I don't know

26
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,959
Speaker 1: how many things would be shocking, you know what I

27
00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,560
Speaker 1: think When we did the whole episode about the pregnancy

28
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,959
Speaker 1: centers and the misdating within the pregnancy scenes, the misleading

29
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 1: of the pregnancy centers, crisis centers, and the lengths people

30
00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 1: will go to deceive people, that was a really interesting,

31
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,240
Speaker 1: uh episode to me? Yeah, yeah, that that certainly was,

32
00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: and that ties into what we're talking about today. Um,

33
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,080
Speaker 1: And you know, I hope one day you can forgive

34
00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,480
Speaker 1: my lack of music knowledge. This isn't like a forever

35
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,760
Speaker 1: count against me. I'm just saying, like recently you thought

36
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,079
Speaker 1: you heard tonat O'Connor and it was the Cranberries, which

37
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,359
Speaker 1: is to me more forgivable, and I actually knew you

38
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: would have got Yes at least is coming together a

39
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:26,359
Speaker 1: little close. I'm trying to do betters about the uh Yeah,

40
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,799
Speaker 1: I feel like the Princess Peach Princess told stool Fiasca

41
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,080
Speaker 1: was really telling yes generations. Yeah, yeah, I thought that

42
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: was very very funny. I feel like I mean, in general,

43
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 1: I think you and I are in a very different

44
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,440
Speaker 1: in some ways, we have similar pop cultural chase, but

45
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:46,800
Speaker 1: we have also different areas of expertise that we've learned knowledge. Yes, well,

46
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: when I was a video producer and audio producer for

47
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 1: this show, one of the episodes that surprised me the most,

48
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 1: it was a video episode that we did was about

49
00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,120
Speaker 1: the history of abortion, because I did not realize our

50
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,840
Speaker 1: recent that became such a huge political touch point in

51
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,079
Speaker 1: the United States, and I thought it's kind of always

52
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,840
Speaker 1: been that way, or at least for you know, more

53
00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,320
Speaker 1: than I mean it's now, it's like fifty years, forty

54
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,440
Speaker 1: fifth years, but I thought it was longer back than that. Um.

55
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 1: And and then there have been ups and downs in

56
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,200
Speaker 1: the history of abortion and people's views on it. But

57
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,079
Speaker 1: that shocked me. I could not believe with how strongly

58
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 1: people feel about it. Um. You know, you've got to

59
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,960
Speaker 1: give props to the moral majority and the politicians at

60
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 1: the time, they they did it like they made that,

61
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,440
Speaker 1: like we said, and in several episodes recently, which is

62
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,640
Speaker 1: one of the reasons we wanted to rerun this is

63
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 1: some people, that is what they vote on, and that's it.

64
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,080
Speaker 1: So in light of that, and in light of some

65
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,520
Speaker 1: of the things we've been talking about lately, like what's

66
00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,600
Speaker 1: happening in poland what's happening here in the US around abortion,

67
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,480
Speaker 1: we wanted to bring back this two parts on revisionist

68
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 1: history of abortion. So here is part one. Please enjoy.

69
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mob Never told you. From House to

70
00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:20,520
Speaker 1: abortion dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

71
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,920
Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today is part one of

72
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,599
Speaker 1: a two parter that we are doing on abortion and

73
00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,920
Speaker 1: particularly abortion in the United States. And I think that

74
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,039
Speaker 1: our our talk about abortion should just go ahead and

75
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:45,240
Speaker 1: be prefaced with the clear statement that we aren't pro abortion.

76
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,040
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone is pro abortion, but we are

77
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:54,440
Speaker 1: pro choice absolutely. Yeah. We are in favor of letting

78
00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: women decide whether to have children or not have children.

79
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,479
Speaker 1: And honestly, Caroline, the more I learned about the history

80
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:09,080
Speaker 1: of abortion, and particularly it's criminalization and subsequent legalization in

81
00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,560
Speaker 1: the United States, the more pro choice I have become,

82
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 1: the more deeply committed I am as a person and

83
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 1: have become to championing that right. Yeah, I agree, And

84
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 1: it seems like the deeper we went into abortion history,

85
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,680
Speaker 1: the more it became clear to me that while abortion

86
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,320
Speaker 1: has always happened throughout our history, and we'll always continue

87
00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,039
Speaker 1: to happen in one form or another, and while it

88
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 1: is always to some degree been a taboo, uh, it's

89
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 1: interesting to look at how the fight against women being

90
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 1: able to have abortion seems so tied to seemingly ancillary issues. UM.

91
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 1: Abortion seems to be caught up in the argument between uh,

92
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 1: for instance, the professionalization of medicine and the professionalization of

93
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 1: obstetrics versus those evil, sneaky low class midwives. UM. It

94
00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,760
Speaker 1: also seems to be caught up in conversations about population

95
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:19,479
Speaker 1: growth and control, about wealth versus poverty, high class versus

96
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:24,839
Speaker 1: low class Americans, race. I mean, abortion itself almost seems

97
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 1: like just another bullet point in all of these discussions

98
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,800
Speaker 1: that have been going on since the dawn of our

99
00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 1: country's history. And it's so often portrayed, especially in our

100
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 1: political landscape, as a black or and white issue, where

101
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:44,040
Speaker 1: you're either pro choice or anti choice, where Whereas, of course,

102
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,799
Speaker 1: of course, as is often the case when you really

103
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,240
Speaker 1: dig into what you're talking about. There are so many

104
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 1: different layers to it. And even though we've talked about

105
00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,560
Speaker 1: reproductive rights on the podcast before a long time ago, Uh,

106
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,280
Speaker 1: Molly and I did a podcast on the mechanics of abortion,

107
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,200
Speaker 1: and we're not going to get into like how abortions

108
00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 1: work in terms of surgically, how they work today. Um.

109
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,960
Speaker 1: And we've also talked about planned parenthood before, but after

110
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,720
Speaker 1: this year and we're recording this listeners at the end

111
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:22,240
Speaker 1: of we could not talk about abortion considering the reproductive

112
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,720
Speaker 1: rights climate UM in the US right now, and the

113
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,160
Speaker 1: planned parenthood hearings with Cecil Richard's before Congress, the planned

114
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 1: parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs, and on and on and on,

115
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: and so many bills being presented at Congress's both within

116
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: the States and also nationally to restrict women's right to choose. Yeah,

117
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 1: And so what Kristen and I wanted to do is

118
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,280
Speaker 1: really provide a context for the abortion discussion that's going

119
00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,880
Speaker 1: on today in this country. We didn't just want to

120
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 1: tick down the list of what happened in abortion history

121
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 1: year to year, decade to decade, century to century. We

122
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: really hope to illustrate the fact that Like I said,

123
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 1: abortion is something that's always happened and that women will

124
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 1: always find a way to achieve, And so we wanted

125
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,080
Speaker 1: to shed a little light on the politics, the culture

126
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,040
Speaker 1: that goes on around it, and what influences whether people

127
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,720
Speaker 1: are for it or against it. Can we start off

128
00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,360
Speaker 1: now with a little bit of Gloria Steine. Of course

129
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,840
Speaker 1: that might seem like a bit of a side note, um,

130
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,439
Speaker 1: But in reading up on abortion history for this episode,

131
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,760
Speaker 1: it made me think of Gloria Steinham's new memoir, My

132
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,600
Speaker 1: Life on the Road and how she dedicated it to

133
00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,480
Speaker 1: the British doctor who performed an abortion for her, and

134
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,560
Speaker 1: hearing her talk about that experience, UM, in interviews that

135
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,360
Speaker 1: she was having, you know, in months past while she

136
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,080
Speaker 1: was on that book tour, just made me think of

137
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 1: how recent a lot of this history is. You know,

138
00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,840
Speaker 1: this this is a woman that you and I have

139
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 1: had the stee honor of meeting, and you know, she

140
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,720
Speaker 1: lived in a time as so many of our mothers

141
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 1: or grandmothers did, when you would have to if she

142
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,920
Speaker 1: did find a doctor who would do this thing, he

143
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,120
Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to do. And in the dedication to her memoir,

144
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:22,079
Speaker 1: Gloria Steinham relays what this doctor Sharp made her promise

145
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,440
Speaker 1: in order, but before he agreed to perform her abortion,

146
00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 1: he said, you must promise me two things. First, you'll

147
00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,079
Speaker 1: not tell anyone my name. Second, you will do what

148
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,960
Speaker 1: you want to do with your life. Dear doctor Sharp,

149
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,640
Speaker 1: I believe you, who knew the law was unjust, would

150
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 1: not mind if I say this so long after your death.

151
00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 1: I've done the best I could with my life, and

152
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 1: this book is for you. Gosh, isn't that that just

153
00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,640
Speaker 1: always made me just cry? Yeah? I mean I think

154
00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,559
Speaker 1: that that's an excellent snapshot of the attitude that many

155
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,320
Speaker 1: pro choice women and men have, which is, you should

156
00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: be able to live the life that you want to live,

157
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,480
Speaker 1: to choose to live live at the way that you want.

158
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,760
Speaker 1: And so with that, should we give a little historical context.

159
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,800
Speaker 1: Of course, that's the whole point of this. This is

160
00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,000
Speaker 1: a context show. So let's sleep way back in time,

161
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,440
Speaker 1: way way way before Gloria Steinem to ancient history, where

162
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,719
Speaker 1: we often begin, because here's the thing. For most of history,

163
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:30,439
Speaker 1: there have been permissible circumstances for early term abortions. Right

164
00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 1: the line in the sand, so to speak, was something

165
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 1: called the quickening which is basically when a woman would

166
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,120
Speaker 1: feel the fetus move for the first time. This typically

167
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,680
Speaker 1: happened in the about fourth month of pregnancy, and everybody

168
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:47,320
Speaker 1: pretty much assumed like, there's no pregnancy before that. Um,

169
00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,280
Speaker 1: it's more a lack of a period, a lack of amensies, um.

170
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 1: And so when the quickening happened, that's when people got

171
00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 1: sort of iffy about abortion happening. Now, in ancient Greece

172
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 1: and Rome, the only time that a pre quickening abortion

173
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 1: would be a big deal would be if the dad

174
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 1: actually felt entitled to a child. But even Aristotle advised

175
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: abortion in cases when couples have children in excess, partly

176
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,440
Speaker 1: because of this whole idea that fetuses were not fully

177
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 1: formed until forty days after conception for boys and eighty

178
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,280
Speaker 1: days for girls. It takes a little longer for girls

179
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,520
Speaker 1: to We've got to get our makeup on, you know,

180
00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,079
Speaker 1: and that takes forever, and then like you've got to

181
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 1: wait for the straightening iron to heat up and do

182
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,120
Speaker 1: your hair. So, I mean, it's a miracle we can

183
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:35,840
Speaker 1: even get out of the womb. Yeah, I mean, it

184
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 1: takes me forty days every morning to get ready. So

185
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,600
Speaker 1: it feels like it for me. I don't know how

186
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,720
Speaker 1: I'm here. Um. But in fact, that forty day mark

187
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,840
Speaker 1: um was something that for a long time the Catholic

188
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: Church used as its um sort of line in the

189
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,000
Speaker 1: sand as well, not condemning abortion before that period under

190
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 1: the belief that the soul hadn't yet entered the fetus,

191
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,160
Speaker 1: although of that policy would certainly change, and we should

192
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 1: emphasize though that abortion was not morally ideal, but it

193
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't as unconscionable as many people consider it today,

194
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,360
Speaker 1: as that early developing fetus was really just considered a

195
00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 1: part of the mother. And so a lot of this

196
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,560
Speaker 1: early focus on abortion up into the nineteenth century, as

197
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 1: we'll get to, uh, focused all on the health of

198
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 1: the mother and what was up to her, what she

199
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 1: felt in terms of the quickening, oh my god, something

200
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 1: something being left up to a woman, a medical decision

201
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 1: being left up to a woman. And that's sort of

202
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,920
Speaker 1: the point of this whole discussion of early abortion, which

203
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,439
Speaker 1: is that with this idea of the quickening and waiting

204
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 1: until the mother says, oh, like I felt it, kick,

205
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,280
Speaker 1: I've got a baby in me now, hooray, we're going

206
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,679
Speaker 1: to be parents. Um. It was. It was really up

207
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 1: to the mother's judgment um and then only then would

208
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,560
Speaker 1: other people except that she had a pregnancy. And in

209
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 1: the case says that women discovered that they were pregnant

210
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 1: that their men's sees had stopped. Uh. There were all sorts,

211
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,600
Speaker 1: especially herbal abortifations, that women might seek out to induce miscarriages,

212
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,880
Speaker 1: and Kathleen London at Yale describes all sorts of these

213
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,319
Speaker 1: folk remedies, such as in Germany, things like marjorom time

214
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 1: parsley and lavender in t form were used, and that

215
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,960
Speaker 1: just sounds like a pleasant t to be honest. And

216
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,520
Speaker 1: also in Germany and in France they used the root

217
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 1: of worm fern, which was very pleasantly nicknamed prostitute root.

218
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 1: And that actually the stretch back to ancient Greece, so

219
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,280
Speaker 1: that's something that had been in continual use since then.

220
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,280
Speaker 1: And then in more modern times, if you if your

221
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 1: garden wasn't growing so well, you could always reach force

222
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 1: some turpentine or cast royal or maybe quinine water in

223
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,080
Speaker 1: which a rusty nail had been soaked. Cocktails or speaking

224
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 1: of cocktails, Carolina, Jim, one of your faiths gin with

225
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,240
Speaker 1: some iron fillings. Well, speaking of cocktails, I mean, yeah,

226
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 1: quinine and jin there you go to gin and tonic

227
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,640
Speaker 1: at half of women were doing. Oh lord. Now, Germany

228
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 1: and France weren't the only places that had folk remedies.

229
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 1: Of course, women in America use these remedies as well,

230
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 1: things like seven or got rude, tansy or penny royalty.

231
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 1: They also used rosemary and lavender. Slave women would turn

232
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: to cotton root the ps y'all, penny royalty wasn't really

233
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 1: a pleasant way to induce a miscarriage. You might experience

234
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: possibly fatal symptoms, including tingling fingers, nausea, dizziness, and strange

235
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 1: burning sensations. Yeah, I mean, because essentially what these women

236
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: were trying to do was poison their body into inducing

237
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: a miscarriage. So these herbal abortivations weren't necessarily the safest

238
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 1: or healthiest routes. Um. But it wasn't just about going

239
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 1: out and plucking some houbs and making some tea and

240
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,640
Speaker 1: muddling some things. Well to do, Ladies and their gents

241
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 1: might also procure so called female pills, which were meant

242
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 1: to induce miscarriages as well, And there was a euphemism

243
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 1: actually um that is found in a lot of women's

244
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 1: like letters and diaries for taking these quote unquote female pills,

245
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 1: which they called taking the trade. Yeah, And in a

246
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 1: lot of sources that we were reading about this, they

247
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,120
Speaker 1: talk about how if a euphemism exists for something that

248
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,640
Speaker 1: that typically reveals both an openness and acceptance about the

249
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,960
Speaker 1: fact that this is happening, that women are controlling their

250
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 1: own fertility, but also the need for secrecy. So like,

251
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,160
Speaker 1: this is happening and we're writing letters to each other

252
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 1: or writing in our diaries about it, but we can't

253
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 1: just say I'm getting rid of my pregnancy. We've got

254
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,120
Speaker 1: to call it something. Well, they might just call it

255
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,480
Speaker 1: going horseback riding. And of course there are also so

256
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 1: called external abortifactions with things like heavy lifting, climbing trees, jumping,

257
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 1: also douching with lie This is when we get into

258
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 1: the far more dangerous types of self induced abortion, or

259
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,960
Speaker 1: of course knitting needles and coat hangers being inserted into

260
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 1: the vagina to try to pierce the uterus. That just

261
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,440
Speaker 1: sounds horrific. All of that sounds horrific. Um And not

262
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 1: making it any easier though, is the rise of morality

263
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 1: around abortion and how it affected laws in the UK

264
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,920
Speaker 1: and the US. Yeah, what what I was genuinely surprised

265
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 1: to learn was just how chill we were legally in

266
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 1: the United States and under like English common law regarding

267
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 1: prequickening abortions. Like we said, while it wasn't like morally

268
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 1: solid gold, it was not the end of the world either.

269
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 1: So pre eighteen hundreds in the US there were no

270
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 1: laws against pre quickening abortions. Those kinds of um sort

271
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,919
Speaker 1: of homemaking. Colonial guides that women would have would include

272
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 1: commonly recipes for those herbal abortivations well, usually under the

273
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 1: euphemism of bringing on the men's sees. So, oh, your

274
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 1: mensies has stopped, here's what to take to bring it

275
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 1: on restore that men's sees um. And Protestants and Catholics

276
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,359
Speaker 1: were mostly fine with it too, although Christianity considered it

277
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 1: taboo unless in the case of preserving the mother's health,

278
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 1: and a lot of our sources noted that even through

279
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, many women didn't consider abortion a sin.

280
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,159
Speaker 1: Probably helped buy things like the euphemisms of you know,

281
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,840
Speaker 1: I'm just bringing back my mensis or taking the trade.

282
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,240
Speaker 1: It's no big deal, and speaking of English common law,

283
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,840
Speaker 1: though in eighteen o three the English decreed that a

284
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 1: post quickening abortion was a crime punishable by death, so

285
00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:01,400
Speaker 1: that escalated quickly. Yeah, but it wasn't so much about

286
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,800
Speaker 1: preserving the developing life of that fetus as a lot

287
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,359
Speaker 1: of our abortion debates, at least in the United States,

288
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 1: are focused on today those first statutes in the UK

289
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 1: and also in the United States outlawing abortion. We're far

290
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,400
Speaker 1: more concerned with preserving mother's lives. I mean, essentially, these

291
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 1: were poison control methods. Yeah. And what's confusing there for

292
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 1: me though, is so they're worried about you poisoning yourself,

293
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,439
Speaker 1: and if you try to poison yourself, they'll put you

294
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,680
Speaker 1: to death. Okay, Yeah, that is kind of a mixed message.

295
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: But as we move into the middle of the nineteenth century,

296
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 1: particularly in the eighteen forties, abortion starts to be a

297
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:46,200
Speaker 1: profitable business. You see more and more advertisements by uh

298
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,639
Speaker 1: quote unquote drug companies, not like we would think of

299
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 1: them today, obviously, but people creating those female pills. We

300
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: see midwives, and we see people like a Madame Restell

301
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 1: who advertised her birth can troll and abortion services. Yeah,

302
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 1: so Madame Rossell was the pseudonym of abortionists and Lowman,

303
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,760
Speaker 1: who was later dub the Wickedest Woman of New York.

304
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 1: And she essentially set up an abortion service where she

305
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: would sell her infamous monthly pills that you could order

306
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 1: by mail or if you would go in and see her,

307
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 1: she would give you these pills that would possibly induce

308
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 1: a miscarriage. But then she would also rely on clients

309
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,360
Speaker 1: coming back because they wouldn't work, and she would administer

310
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 1: abortions for twenty dollars if you were poor, or hundred

311
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 1: dollars if you were rich. And she was so successful

312
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:46,280
Speaker 1: that she opened branch offices in Boston, in Philadelphia. Yeah,

313
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,199
Speaker 1: she even had traveling salespeople going door to door in

314
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 1: different big cities selling her tonics um. And of course

315
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 1: you know all of these ads. Again, they were all

316
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 1: very euphimistic, selling her services and telling her tonics and

317
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 1: potions and things of that nature. And not surprisingly, she

318
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 1: did face a lot of criticism, probably for her notoriety.

319
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 1: She wasn't a midwife who kept to herself in her

320
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: own little cottage. I mean, this is a woman who

321
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 1: was so successful that she was buying real estate. She

322
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 1: had a huge property built in New York City, she

323
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 1: would wear furs and jewels, and people were just disgusted

324
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 1: by this ostentatious show of wealth, especially because of how

325
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 1: she earned her money. Um. But the thing is, the

326
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 1: criticisms that she faced sound pretty familiar if you're a

327
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 1: person alive today reading the news. She was accused of

328
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 1: praying on the naive and poor, of threatening the institution

329
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: of marriage, of helping women shirk the duties of motherhood,

330
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 1: and even encouraging prostitution. And basically, her response to this

331
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 1: was like, I don't understand why you people think that

332
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 1: all of the women in your lives are just waiting

333
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 1: for the chance to be vicious and awful. Like women

334
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,639
Speaker 1: don't it around being like, you know, I'm going to

335
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: get pregnant so i can go get an abortion. I

336
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: just think that that sounds like a great idea, or

337
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm pregnant and all of a sudden,

338
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 1: I'm just bored. I'm just gonna go get this taken

339
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 1: care of. She basically was like, listen, your women aren't

340
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: less virtuous because they do this, and how dare you

341
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 1: assume that any of them in such a vicious way

342
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 1: want to go do this? She also though, and this

343
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: is sort of a topic that we will revisit in

344
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 1: greater detail later, she asserted that doctors and politicians wanted

345
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: people like her out of the way so they could

346
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: make more money. Because around this time you start seeing

347
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: the professionalization of medicine, uh medicalized abortion happening, with more

348
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: surgical options, more professional obstetricians performing these procedures, and so

349
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 1: that kind of left abortion open mostly to the wealthy,

350
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 1: whereas poorer women still relied on those potions that women

351
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: like dam Ristell sold, those uterine tonics or cathartic pills

352
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 1: as they were sometimes called. Um. Yeah, it's fascinating to

353
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 1: see how this is the period when this becomes a

354
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 1: socio economic issue as well. And we should mention too,

355
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: the majority of Madame Russell's clients and also a majority

356
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: of women who seek abortions today were married. These women

357
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: were married with kids. Um. But also during this time,

358
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: in the mid eighteen hundreds, when Madame Ristel is getting

359
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,719
Speaker 1: yourself arrested a couple of times, people are really you know,

360
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 1: calling her wicked and all of these things, the abortion

361
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: debate intensifies, along with moralizing in the US. So it's

362
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: in the mid nineteenth century that Massachusetts enacts the first

363
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: state law making an abortion or attempted abortion at any

364
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: point in pregnancy a criminal offense, and a really comprehensive

365
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 1: paper we found from Ohio State University also notes how

366
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: there is a distinctly American shift toward abortion being reframed

367
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: as a moral issue and as a sin at this time,

368
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: whereas you see over in Europe the abortion debate starts

369
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: to shift more toward focusing on how a lot of

370
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: these women are just in dire straits and they lack resources,

371
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: so let's let the government step in and do something

372
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: about it, rather than this moralistic tone that it takes

373
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 1: across the pond, where women who are seeking abortions are

374
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: obviously immoral, possibly prostitutes, They're irresponsible, and they are you know,

375
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: essentially making God cry. And just a few decades later,

376
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies, despite the increase in moralizing, there

377
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: are two hundred full time abortionists in New York alone

378
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: who have a pretty okay collective safety rate of of

379
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: performing these procedures or handing out these tonic and having

380
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: women uh survive. But you know, we can't just leave

381
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 1: the moralizing behind. This is also the time in the

382
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: eighteen seventies when we get Anthony Comstock and the Comstock laws.

383
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: He's the worst. Yeah, he's the worst, but he doesn't

384
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: he sounds completely modern to me, Kristen, I've got to say,

385
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: reading about this guy, he sounds absolutely like somebody you'd

386
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: read about in the news today. Tell me more, I will. So.

387
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: In eighteen seventy three, Comstock, who is an anti sex

388
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: trade and pornography crusader, helped push a bill through Congress

389
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: that defined contraceptive and contraception information at all period as obscene,

390
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: saying that they promoted lust and lewdness. So a little

391
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: bit of context within the context. Within the context, the

392
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: diaphragm had been invented in Europe in eighteen forty two,

393
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: and the full length rubber condom in the US in

394
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty nine. So Comstock was seeing ads for birth

395
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: control for people like Madam Rastell, for those tonics to

396
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: bring on your men sees and things like that, and

397
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, stop gross, this is awful. Uh. And similarly, though,

398
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: it's also worth noting that Comstock was one of the many, many, many,

399
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: many many people who did not distinguish between birth control

400
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: and abortion, so in his mind it was just as

401
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: bad to advertise your abortion services as it was birth

402
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: control services. And by birth control services, at this time,

403
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: we're talking exclusively about those barrier methods, right, Okay, So

404
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: thanks to all Comstock, can all squeaked out over some advertisements. Uh,

405
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: the Comstock laws passed and it becomes illegal to send

406
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: birth control through the mail or across state line. So

407
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: all those care packages with condoms that I send you

408
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: every every month, Carol, I love it, balloon animals all day. Yes, good,

409
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: and send them, although I guess it's not across state line,

410
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: so comp Stock approved, I can keep doing it. Um.

411
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: Twenty four states, though, soon passed their own versions of

412
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: Commstock laws, with New England states instituting the toughest ones,

413
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: which is interesting to me. I mean, I I think

414
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: nowadays of New England being fairly blue on the political spectrum,

415
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: but they were definitely cracking down on any type of

416
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: uh funny business so to speak, and either trying to

417
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: make up for lost time. But by abortion had been

418
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: criminalized across the US, except in cases to save a

419
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: mother's life. Meanwhile, English law had been amended so that

420
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: it could take place when quote done in good faith

421
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: for the purpose only of preserving the life of the mother.

422
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: So you already start to see in the nineteen twenties

423
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: Britain starting to back pedal a little bit in terms

424
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: of its abortion criminalization, whereas in the It States it

425
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: is just continuing to dig in its heels. But what

426
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: happened during this time, Caroline, I mean, how did we

427
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: go from, you know, especially during this period in the

428
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, from prequickening abortion being pretty much like a

429
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: way of life. You might not talk about it openly,

430
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 1: but you've got some euphemisms. It's just gonna probably happen

431
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: to the turn of the century when it's completely illegal.

432
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 1: So the whole irony of this time period is that

433
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: it's called the progressive era. That is the backdrop that

434
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: we're really going to dig into to add a little

435
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: bit more nuanced to better understand why abortion became criminalized

436
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: in the United States, because you might think, listening to

437
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: political arguments today, that it was because oh, we we

438
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: just decided that we wanted to preserve the life of

439
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: these fetuses. We needed more babies. It's all about the

440
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: potential babies, right, But no, actually, when it comes to criminalization.

441
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: It's sort of all about the dudes if we look

442
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: in the progressive era and what's going on. And Leslie

443
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: Jay Reagan has been an outstanding resource on the history

444
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: of abortion in the United States, and in her paper

445
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: Linking Midwives and Abortion in the Progressive Era, she wrote,

446
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: and I quote, the combined campaign to control abortion and

447
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: midwiffery took the form of a classic Progressive era reform movement.

448
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 1: A coalition of private interest groups, doctors, female reformers, nurses,

449
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: and journalists of the native born, white middle class identified

450
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: a problem, investigated and documented its extent in objective reports,

451
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: and mobilized to promote a state sponsored solution. So you

452
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: had a bunch of people going, we know better than you.

453
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: Listen to us, We're going to fix your lives. And

454
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: a lot of Reagan's research focuses around Chicago being an

455
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:12,479
Speaker 1: incubator for anti midwiffery and therefore anti abortion sentiment. There

456
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: were all of these fears during the Progressive era, and

457
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: Kristen and I have talked about this many times on

458
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: the podcast before, around women's sexuality versus their innocence, particularly

459
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: in these urban centers where more and more young women

460
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: were moving away from the farms and moving into towns

461
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: to make money, to make a living, living on their own,

462
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: maybe living in boarding houses with other single women. But

463
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: essentially you have this wave of urban working women making

464
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: everybody a little nervous. Uh. There were all of these

465
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: concerns that these women were or would be victims of

466
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: male lust, but also they were blamed for being harlots

467
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: for liking it. So there was this duality of judgment

468
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: on a lot of these urban women, many of whom

469
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: these progressive air reformers assumed, we're going and getting abortions

470
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: like every week. Um. And so these anxieties helped give

471
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: rise to the attitude of yeah, yeah, let's take the

472
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: powers and abilities away from midwives and give all of

473
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: those powers and abilities two doctors. And it's interesting it

474
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: was not just male doctors who were against midwives. There

475
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: were a lot of female doctors who were just as

476
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: likely to slam midwives. During this time, doctor Eliza root

477
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: In three blamed midwives for infections and inducing abortions, but

478
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 1: bt dubs. She also blamed improperly trained doctors in general,

479
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: saying they were just as bad. And this was presented

480
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: at a conference at a medical gathering, and the result

481
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: was essentially, and I'm grossly over general rising, but the

482
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: result was basically a lot of doctors going, look over there,

483
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: midwives are evil, Like, we're fine, We're gonna keep doing this.

484
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: We've got tools and medical degrees, like they're just low

485
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: class women with herbs, with herbs, and this idea of quickening.

486
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: That was one of the big things that these uh

487
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: fancy professionalized doctors wanted to scientifically debunk was the idea

488
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: of quickening, because they said that it was just an

489
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: emotional experience that women would have and therefore couldn't be trusted.

490
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: So that gets those pre quickening abortion sort of off

491
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: the table. So all this was happening on the heels

492
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: of the newly formed American Medical Association, which got together

493
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty seven, and soon after all these dude

494
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: doctors got together and we're like, hey, let's professionalize the

495
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: whole medicine thing. Oh, by the way, let's launch an

496
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: anti abortion can pain and target these midwives and homeopaths,

497
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: whom they termed irregulars. And that was a term irregulars

498
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: that even the media picked up on, so they would

499
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: that lamestream media. So you have the mothering effect of

500
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: these midwives and homeo paths. And from eighteen eighty to

501
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, there was this massive debate really all around

502
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: the turn of the century over midwives, because by this

503
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: point midwives were considered almost synonymous with abortions. And one

504
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: of the big pitches that these doctors had for pooh

505
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: pooing midwives was it, Okay, they're performing all of this

506
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: hocus pocus and all of the abortions, and you know

507
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: what they're doing. They are depleting the white race. And

508
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: now we get to the pivot of eugenics. Yeah, Eugenics

509
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: emerges in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, first

510
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: in England and then in the US before being exported

511
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: to Nazi Germany. And it was the idea that certain physical, mental,

512
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: and moral traits were genetics. So it was very important

513
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: to these people, these people being everyone from the American

514
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: President to presidents of universities to politicians to your average

515
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: Joe on the street. Um, it was important to them

516
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: to weed out bad traits like poverty, promiscuity, criminality, mental disability.

517
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: And I want to go back in my time machine

518
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: and have a talk about privilege. Basically with with this

519
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: whole eugenics thing and assuming that things like poverty are

520
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: genetic rather than the product of generations of oppression. But

521
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: any who, I think it's interesting to me that in

522
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: the time when abortion is becoming illegal across this country

523
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: and people are saying it's immoral and awful, eugenicists were

524
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: pushing legislation for forced sterilization of the poor and disabled.

525
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of poor women in this country were sterilized.

526
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: The movement ends up peaking in the twenties and thirties,

527
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: but it carries through and it's not until you know,

528
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: like after World War Two the people are like, oh,

529
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: that Hitler guy kind of ruined that for us. But

530
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: I find it interesting that you can be against abortion

531
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: but for forced sterilization of innocent women. And this goes

532
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: to what's also happening at the time, this white fright

533
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 1: that's a foot, where the social scientists who are stoking

534
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: nationalistic and racist concerns over declining white birthrates and rising

535
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: immigrant populations. I mean, even Theodore Roosevelt in said women

536
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: of good stock who refused to have children were race criminals. Yeah,

537
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: there was an attitude that it was a sign of

538
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: moral disease if you chose to limit your family, and

539
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: that we need a growing population of healthy white workers essentially,

540
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: and the best way for that to happen is to

541
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: make sure that women can't go to these midwives and

542
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: get abortions or aborti factions. And part of that had

543
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: to do with how uh doctors in the professionalization of

544
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: medicine and obstetrics attempted to scientifically debunk midwiffery and also

545
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: establish the hospital rather than the home, as the place

546
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: where birth and any kind of a maternal related care

547
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: should take place. Yeah, and Reagan writes about this as

548
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: allowing doctors to adjudicate the legality of abortions. That's a

549
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: lot of words, but it essentially is talking about how

550
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: doctors and state politicians start working together to make sure

551
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: that women can only get abortions in hospitals, but then

552
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: only in the case of life threatening emergencies. But, like

553
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, what does this do? This essentially only

554
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: leaves the wiggle room for wealthier women to be able

555
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: to continue to access abortion. Yeah, they would be called

556
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: therapeutic abortions, and so some doctors would declare morning sickness

557
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: as reason enough to have a therapeutic abortion. So now

558
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: we have this, you know, abortion still existing, but something

559
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: that's really only accessible for the wealthiest women. And we

560
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: have so many layers going on so far. So we

561
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: have some racism of foot and some eugenics going on.

562
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: We have the professionalization of medicine and obstetrics. We we

563
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: have women being shoved at the side, basically being told

564
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: that their feelings about physical and emotional feelings about the

565
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: quickening are total bunk. We have concern about the women's

566
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: movement of foot and men having to be held to

567
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: a new sexual standard. And then of course we have religion.

568
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: We got some religion in the background not helping things

569
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: out either. In eighteen sixty nine, Pope Pious the Ninth

570
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: declared embryos human beings with us all at the time

571
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: of conception and declares that abortions lead to excommunication, and

572
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: then in a papal decree condemned therapeutic abortions as well. Yeah,

573
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: so no abortions under any circumstances at all in the

574
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: view of the Catholic Church. So it's thanks to this

575
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: combination of all of this factors that Christian was just

576
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: mentioning that led to abortion being redefined almost completely as immoral,

577
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: though it was still common. I mean, it's not like

578
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: it went away, and that's something that we need to

579
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 1: re emphasize, like abortion has never stopped. People will always

580
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: seek abortion. And it also didn't necessarily mean that women

581
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: felt yet a moral obligation to carry a pregnancy to term,

582
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: despite the fact that women, midwives, female doctors, you name it,

583
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: they were all under these basically character attacks from so

584
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: many male doctors who were essentially mounting a backlash against,

585
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: like Kristen said, the women's movement, against women having power

586
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: of any kind, against women relying on any self knowledge

587
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: of their bodies and their pregnancies and being able to

588
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: say what's what. And that's where we get a lot

589
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: of the modern argument that the professionalization of medicine is

590
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: anti feminist. That's where a lot of that argument stems from,

591
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: that women were no longer allowed a voice in their

592
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 1: own bodies, in their own healthcare well. And it's such

593
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 1: a stark example not only of the professionalization of medicine

594
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: and the impact that can have on women's lives, but

595
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: also the politicization medicine as well, because as Leslie Reagan

596
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: underscores there couldn't be this like huge impact of abortion

597
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: ultimately being criminalized if you didn't have alliances between doctors

598
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: and the state, to the point that you have judges

599
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: like Chicago judge John P. Mcgourty ruling in nineteen fifteen

600
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: that a woman who would destroy life in that manner

601
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: ak and abortion is not fit for decent society. So,

602
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you just have all of these forces at work.

603
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's almost the perfect, most imperfect storm

604
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: in the mid to late nineteenth century that ended up

605
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: criminalizing something that used to very much be a way

606
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: of life in the days of the Founding Fathers. Yeah,

607
00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: and so by this point, not only is abortional legal,

608
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: but the women who seek them are officially breaking the law.

609
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: They're immoral and they're irresponsible. And it's almost comedic if

610
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: it weren't so sad that men are lacking from this conversation,

611
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: not in terms of who's legislating things. Obviously that's the

612
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: dudes in this scenario, but the men who are getting

613
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: these women pregnant. Um. But that just goes back to

614
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: the whole discussion of so many women in this era

615
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: who were seeking abortions were not necessarily the prostitutes that

616
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: everyone was so worried about on the street corners of Chicago,

617
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: but rather mothers who were already having so many children

618
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: and whose bodies were becoming destroyed, and who didn't have

619
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: enough money to feed these children that they were having.

620
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: These are the women who were more likely seeking these procedures.

621
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: And so as a result of making abortion illegal and

622
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: of labeling women who seek them as immoral and ear responsible,

623
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: you have so many women, especially poor women of color,

624
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: going to deadly links to obtain abortions, especially if they

625
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: did not have much money. And this really sets us

626
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: up for our next episode where we're going to lead

627
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 1: you through the conversation of how essentially UH women tried

628
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: to help other women achieve abortions achieve birth control, and

629
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: that would then lead us to the Row versus Way

630
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: decision in and in the meantime, of course, we want

631
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: to hear from you what are your thoughts on abortion history,

632
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: and especially if you live outside the United States, what

633
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: do you know about your own countries abortion history. Mom's

634
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address.

635
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff Podcast or

636
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

637
00:41:53,440 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I have a

638
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: letter here from Abby about our Gilmore Girls episode. She says, Hello, ladies.

639
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: I'm nineteen and I grew up watching Gilmore Girls with

640
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: my mom and sister. We started watching at the very

641
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: beginning when I was about four, and since then we've

642
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: been watching and rewatching all of the episodes. At this point,

643
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: I think I've seen all of them at least five times.

644
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: There's something that's always been special about watching this tight

645
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: knit mom and daughter show with my mom and sister,

646
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: and we've assigned characters to just about all of our friends.

647
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: My mom is missus Kim, my sister is a mix

648
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: of Rory in Paris and I'm Laine. I loved hearing

649
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: you guys talk about something so near and dear to

650
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: my heart. That's made me laugh and cry and everything

651
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: in between. Since it's been on Netflix, I've gotten the

652
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: chance to watch it with friends and argue about which

653
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: of Rory's boyfriends is the best. The answer is none

654
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: of them, which is really amazing as well, especially when

655
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: it's their first time. Funny story too. There's a little

656
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: place in the tiny town where I went to college

657
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 1: called Luke's Joint that serves breakfast. I spent a few

658
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: homesick lunches eating breakfast there, which always helped, especially since

659
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: the owner was kind of grumpy like Luke danes Is.

660
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to watching the reboot with my

661
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: mom and sister. We've already planned to watch it together

662
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: no matter where we end up in twenty seventeen, and

663
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: probably watch all of the episodes again. Thanks for an

664
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: amazing show. Thank you, Abby, and I've got to let

665
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: her here from Amy. Also about our Gilmore Girls episode,

666
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: she writes, I watched the show since the beginning of

667
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: season one, and I loved it because it's very sweet,

668
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: fun and funny. I loved that Rory loved to read,

669
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: although I certainly didn't have a dean thinking my love

670
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: of reading was sexy. I have some points I wanted

671
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: to make based on whether or not the show is feminist,

672
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: the amount of minorities representative, etcetera. I'm also a big

673
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: fan of Gilmore Guys, and I'm listening to the latest

674
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: episode as I type this. It is a feminist show,

675
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: and here are some examples. First, Laura Lae names Rory

676
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: after herself, and Rory uses Laura's last name, not her

677
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: father's last name. Two, lots of women run businesses. The

678
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: independence in the Dragonfly in and even the town Mechanic

679
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: are all women. Miss Patty is strongly independent, as is Piarist. Three.

680
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: Rory is more renowned for her brain than just want

681
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: anything else. Yes, Blodel is attractive, but Dean likes her

682
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: for her smarts and whip. That really is cool. Second,

683
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: the show really does show a wide range of people

684
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: in types. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't Michelle a person

685
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: of color? He was one of the main characters on

686
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: the show, and they mentioned him being French and don't

687
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: focus on this color. But I always thought of him

688
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: as a person of color. To Lane, another major character

689
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: that is way more than the Asian girl. Yes, her

690
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 1: mother has some quirks, but if they were going for stereotypes,

691
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: she would have been super brainy like Rory, very good

692
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: at math and shine, quiet, and maybe good at the piano.

693
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: Three look at the town. Suki is a larger woman,

694
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: but look at her. She's not a fat chick obsessed

695
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: with losing weight, being the loser who doesn't have a boyfriend.

696
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: She's the one who, in my opinion, has the most

697
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: solid relationship with a man in the entire series. She's school,

698
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: pretty funny, and super talented. Miss Patty also not then

699
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 1: was super sexy. So yes, I've spent long periods of

700
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: time thinking about all these things. I love the show,

701
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: and I feel if they to show in a bunch

702
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: of types just to fill with quota, it wouldn't have

703
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 1: read as real. So thanks Amy, and thanks to everybody

704
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: who's written into us mom. Stuff at how stuff works

705
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and for links to

706
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of

707
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources. So you

708
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: can read more about the history of abortion. Head on

709
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for

710
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: moralness and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff

711
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: works dot com