WEBVTT - Pete Townshend 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.876 Pushkin. The list of iconic rock guitarists who were also 0:00:22.956 --> 0:00:26.476 top tier songwriters is pretty short, and at the top 0:00:26.516 --> 0:00:30.196 of that list is none other than The Who's Pete Townsend. 0:00:30.396 --> 0:00:32.636 He's been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, 0:00:32.756 --> 0:00:36.436 received Kennedy Center Honors, Lifetime Achievement awards from both the 0:00:36.436 --> 0:00:39.276 brit Awards and the Grammys, and all for good reason. 0:00:39.916 --> 0:00:42.756 Pete's iconic power chord guitar style and early use of 0:00:42.796 --> 0:00:46.516 synthesizers established him as a musical innovator in the sixties 0:00:46.596 --> 0:00:50.436 and seventies. His on stage antics, smashing his guitars and 0:00:50.516 --> 0:00:54.316 leaping halfway across the stage mid song, cemented his reputation 0:00:54.516 --> 0:00:57.476 as a consummate rock and roll showman. It's not for 0:00:57.596 --> 0:00:59.956 nothing that The Who were once known as the world's 0:01:00.116 --> 0:01:03.916 loudest band. In the early sixties, The Who scored a 0:01:03.956 --> 0:01:07.156 string of chart topping singles, but Pete Townsend wanted the 0:01:07.156 --> 0:01:10.036 band to try for more than just pop hit, so 0:01:10.076 --> 0:01:13.196 he set out to work writing the first ever rock opera, 0:01:13.276 --> 0:01:17.716 a project that became the double album Tommy. Tommy's widely 0:01:17.756 --> 0:01:21.556 considered The Who's breakout album and is considered a masterpiece 0:01:21.796 --> 0:01:25.676 by critics. Following its release, Pete started writing songs in 0:01:25.716 --> 0:01:29.476 a script for another ambitious project, a sci fi epic 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:33.476 called Life House. After that project was scrapped, which he 0:01:33.596 --> 0:01:37.196 details in today's episode, the songs he'd written for wound 0:01:37.316 --> 0:01:40.796 up on different releases from the band over the next decade, 0:01:40.916 --> 0:01:45.756 including their nineteen seventy one classic album Who's Next. Last month, 0:01:45.756 --> 0:01:48.716 The Who released an epic box set called Who's Next 0:01:48.836 --> 0:01:52.556 Lifehouse that contains one hundred and fifty five tracks, eighty 0:01:52.636 --> 0:01:55.036 nine of which have never been released. The set also 0:01:55.036 --> 0:01:57.996 includes a graphic novel based on Pete's original script on 0:01:58.076 --> 0:02:02.596 her demos, complete live concerts, posters, collectible pins. It's an 0:02:02.636 --> 0:02:06.716 incredible set to pour over. On today's episode, I talked 0:02:06.716 --> 0:02:08.996 to Pete Townsend about how some of the ill fated 0:02:09.116 --> 0:02:12.556 effects of technology that he predicted in Lifehouse have actually 0:02:12.596 --> 0:02:15.916 come to pass. He also explains why he decided to 0:02:15.956 --> 0:02:18.876 target a specifically male audience when writing for The Who, 0:02:19.516 --> 0:02:22.716 and gives an unexpected take on the grateful dead in 0:02:22.756 --> 0:02:29.196 San Francisco's music scene of the sixties. This is broken 0:02:29.236 --> 0:02:32.636 record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Mitchman. 0:02:33.356 --> 0:02:37.116 Here's my interview with Pete Townsend. I was really excited 0:02:37.116 --> 0:02:39.956 to do this interview last week, but then we kind 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:43.556 of had a posit so I could get this box set. That's, 0:02:44.036 --> 0:02:48.356 dear god, what a beautiful I mean, I have some 0:02:48.436 --> 0:02:51.196 box sets that I really like, but this is this 0:02:51.236 --> 0:02:55.556 is something else. It's just incredible to read through as 0:02:55.596 --> 0:03:00.916 I'm as I'm listening the memorabilia book with the pins, 0:03:00.956 --> 0:03:05.036 the buttons, the posters, the graphic, not the detail on 0:03:05.116 --> 0:03:06.076 the graphic novel. 0:03:07.076 --> 0:03:11.196 It's a good, good, good attempt. It's unbelievable good. 0:03:11.876 --> 0:03:16.356 So this is a project I've long been interested in 0:03:16.476 --> 0:03:19.996 as a WHO fan. It seems like a project that 0:03:20.076 --> 0:03:23.796 you've long been interested at least returned to you many times. 0:03:24.076 --> 0:03:26.116 When did you decide that you were going to do 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:30.156 this treatment for this project? When did this come about? 0:03:30.956 --> 0:03:33.916 You know, I didn't decide to do it. I think 0:03:33.916 --> 0:03:36.996 the last big thing that I did around life House 0:03:37.116 --> 0:03:41.436 was I did I think called Lifehouse Method, And prior 0:03:41.476 --> 0:03:43.996 to that, I'd done a thing called Lifehouse Chronicles, which 0:03:44.036 --> 0:03:47.076 was a gig at Sadler's Well's Theater in London, and 0:03:47.156 --> 0:03:49.756 I tried on that occasion. That was in two thousand 0:03:50.236 --> 0:03:54.676 tried to gather together everything that I thought my fans 0:03:54.876 --> 0:03:57.796 and the Who fans had imagined had been a part 0:03:57.836 --> 0:04:02.196 of Life House, because in fact, the songs that are 0:04:02.276 --> 0:04:07.476 attributed to Life House, particularly in this package, were sort 0:04:07.476 --> 0:04:10.756 of scattershot things that I was working on while I 0:04:10.876 --> 0:04:14.516 was waiting to finish the project with the Who's manager, 0:04:14.596 --> 0:04:18.916 Kit Lambert. When when I wrote Tommy, for example, it 0:04:19.036 --> 0:04:22.236 was pretty basic, and Kit Lambert, who was always somebody 0:04:22.236 --> 0:04:25.076 that had helped me with my songwriting and been my 0:04:25.196 --> 0:04:29.076 mentor I was the Who's producer, came in and helped 0:04:29.076 --> 0:04:31.756 me shape it up and make it sharper and make 0:04:31.796 --> 0:04:35.076 it more cohesive. It was still regarded as a bit 0:04:35.356 --> 0:04:39.876 weak by some people plot wise, but with Lifehouse, I 0:04:39.916 --> 0:04:45.116 wrote the script and submitted it to our managers in 0:04:45.196 --> 0:04:49.716 two parts. One was this fiction, which was basic science fiction, 0:04:50.756 --> 0:04:57.196 and the other was a handbook for a electronic music workshop, 0:04:57.796 --> 0:05:01.076 and I called it Barrel one for the fiction, barrel 0:05:01.116 --> 0:05:06.956 two for the workshop, and the graphic novel worked very 0:05:07.076 --> 0:05:11.276 very close to the film script, which I felt at 0:05:11.316 --> 0:05:14.716 the time was very naive. You know, I wasn't a 0:05:14.716 --> 0:05:18.276 film script writer, but it was a story, and that's 0:05:18.316 --> 0:05:20.116 a kind of a joy for me because I was 0:05:20.196 --> 0:05:22.156 young and I was full of ideas, and it was 0:05:22.196 --> 0:05:25.156 a wacky idea. But what they've done in the Graphic 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:30.196 novel is they've allowed some some lightheartedness and some humor 0:05:30.356 --> 0:05:33.956 and some mischievousness to get into the story. There were 0:05:33.996 --> 0:05:36.596 two scripts. There was one written in nineteen seventy one 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:41.316 and another in nineteen seventy five, I think and on 0:05:41.396 --> 0:05:46.276 those two scripts were loosely gathered together by James Harvey, 0:05:46.316 --> 0:05:48.796 who was the guy who did the story for the 0:05:48.836 --> 0:05:52.556 Graphic novel. And it feels cohesive, it feels fun, and 0:05:52.596 --> 0:05:54.516 I think it will help people understand what I was 0:05:54.556 --> 0:05:57.596 shooting for. But hey, you know, when I was writing 0:05:57.596 --> 0:06:01.316 the songs, I had no idea a whether the movie 0:06:01.356 --> 0:06:03.116 would ever get made. It was for a movie I 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:06.356 was interested in, but a movie that was that featured 0:06:06.436 --> 0:06:10.436 live music, a movie that featured the who live at 0:06:10.476 --> 0:06:14.636 their best working with an audience, so very much an 0:06:14.676 --> 0:06:17.916 experiment that when we made the first steps and we 0:06:17.996 --> 0:06:21.516 went into the Young Vic Theater in London and started 0:06:21.556 --> 0:06:25.476 to work with audiences, that was when I realized that 0:06:26.276 --> 0:06:28.996 it just wasn't going to work. We had a lot 0:06:29.036 --> 0:06:33.796 of technology, we had synthesizers, we had backing tapes, We 0:06:33.836 --> 0:06:39.796 had some great ideas, but the audience were unwilling really 0:06:40.156 --> 0:06:44.596 to indulge in an experiment in which they might be 0:06:44.676 --> 0:06:47.996 revealed to be in some way I don't know. And 0:06:48.036 --> 0:06:51.636 in any case, it wasn't advertised. The actual series of 0:06:51.716 --> 0:06:54.596 workshops in London weren't advertised. We were afraid we would 0:06:54.596 --> 0:06:57.356 get overrun. You know, we were a big band, we 0:06:57.356 --> 0:07:00.236 were playing too big, so we were afraid that if 0:07:00.236 --> 0:07:02.916 we advertised it we would get besieged and people would 0:07:02.956 --> 0:07:06.956 just want to hear the hits. So nobody really came. 0:07:07.196 --> 0:07:08.676 And at the time, when you say the hits, just 0:07:09.116 --> 0:07:12.036 mean that would have been this material from Tommy would 0:07:12.036 --> 0:07:15.156 have been really what audiences at that time were wanting 0:07:15.156 --> 0:07:16.676 to hear, would you imagine or would it have been 0:07:16.716 --> 0:07:17.316 the earliest thing. 0:07:17.436 --> 0:07:19.276 Yeah, yeah, it would have been Tommy. It would have 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:21.876 been the singles as well. The singles as well, you know, 0:07:21.956 --> 0:07:24.996 and our act at that time, even after Tommy, was 0:07:25.116 --> 0:07:28.516 very much rooted in the early singles and some R 0:07:28.556 --> 0:07:31.036 and B stuff. You know. One of our big songs 0:07:31.076 --> 0:07:34.716 was Summertime Blues. We'd had a hit album with Live 0:07:34.756 --> 0:07:38.636 at Leeds which was a live album and that featured 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:42.476 summertime blues. So yeah, we were playing. We were playing 0:07:42.476 --> 0:07:45.396 a rock gigs, you know, but in the center of 0:07:45.436 --> 0:07:49.436 our shows was Tommy, and in fact Lifehouse we hoped 0:07:50.316 --> 0:07:55.796 would provide us with a new centerpiece for our live show. 0:07:55.876 --> 0:07:59.996 We tended always to work with what you would, you know, 0:08:00.196 --> 0:08:04.036 in an artistic sense, called a Tripard type show. Three parts, 0:08:04.396 --> 0:08:07.756 you know, some very old hits to start the show, 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:11.876 then Tommy take the level down, and then kind of 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:16.316 real whack out lunelessly at the end, with long, long, 0:08:16.356 --> 0:08:21.196 long version of my generation with lots of stretched out 0:08:21.276 --> 0:08:23.876 jamming and stuff and guitar smashing. 0:08:24.276 --> 0:08:26.396 I mean, the guitarist machine had been a part of 0:08:26.396 --> 0:08:28.956 the repertoire for a bit, but the long, stretched out 0:08:29.036 --> 0:08:31.636 version of my generation was at a bit because you 0:08:31.636 --> 0:08:33.516 guys were tired of the song and wanted to just 0:08:33.556 --> 0:08:34.796 do something different with it. 0:08:35.196 --> 0:08:37.756 We were tired of everything. I think around that time 0:08:37.836 --> 0:08:43.476 we were tired of Tommy in particular. And you know, 0:08:43.516 --> 0:08:46.236 we had a lot of songs. We had plenty of songs. 0:08:46.996 --> 0:08:49.436 You know, we had kids, all right. We had a 0:08:49.476 --> 0:08:52.356 song called Tattoo. We had a whole load of songs. 0:08:52.356 --> 0:08:55.236 We had plenty of songs to do in those days. 0:08:55.276 --> 0:08:56.316 The sets were very sure. 0:08:56.836 --> 0:08:57.036 Yeah. 0:08:57.356 --> 0:08:59.236 You know, the only people that were doing three hour 0:08:59.316 --> 0:09:01.276 shows were the Dead, right. 0:09:01.596 --> 0:09:03.316 Did you see them much in those days? 0:09:03.916 --> 0:09:05.636 Yeah, yeah, a little bit. 0:09:05.716 --> 0:09:05.916 Yeah. 0:09:05.916 --> 0:09:07.596 We did a gig with them called Tea in the 0:09:07.636 --> 0:09:11.996 Park in San Francisco, and that's when I met them all, 0:09:11.996 --> 0:09:15.876 and particularly Matt Jerry Garcia, who I just loved, was 0:09:15.996 --> 0:09:18.996 such a great guy, really great guy. 0:09:19.076 --> 0:09:21.636 Yeah. Did you connect to the music or to the 0:09:21.756 --> 0:09:22.916 idea of. 0:09:22.996 --> 0:09:25.236 I connected to the idea of the dead, the idea 0:09:25.276 --> 0:09:28.356 of you know. I remember Bob Dylan once said to me. 0:09:28.596 --> 0:09:30.116 You know, I said to him, why are you doing 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:34.116 so many shows? You know, why why you're constantly on 0:09:34.156 --> 0:09:36.396 the road. You know, don't you have a fucking life, 0:09:36.716 --> 0:09:40.156 you know, just just on the fucking road all the time. 0:09:40.196 --> 0:09:42.956 And he said, Pete, I'm a folks singer. And I 0:09:42.996 --> 0:09:45.516 said yeah. And he said, well, what is a folks singer? 0:09:45.636 --> 0:09:47.996 And I said tell me and he said, it's a 0:09:48.036 --> 0:09:52.916 guy with a good memory and the music for songs. 0:09:52.956 --> 0:09:55.036 So true, and he said, you know, and he said, 0:09:55.076 --> 0:09:57.396 I've got six hundred and fifty songs and I have 0:09:57.436 --> 0:10:00.036 to keep playing them, otherwise I forget them. And it 0:10:00.116 --> 0:10:01.916 was a bit like that with a Grateful Dead. The 0:10:01.916 --> 0:10:04.836 Grateful Dead were a band that could play fucking anything 0:10:05.036 --> 0:10:07.476 that you came up with. So somebody in the crowd 0:10:07.476 --> 0:10:10.796 would sort of saying, play Bay Fifth Symphony and they 0:10:10.836 --> 0:10:11.396 would have a go. 0:10:11.636 --> 0:10:14.556 You know, yeah, it's pretty wild. 0:10:15.036 --> 0:10:18.516 But also the commitment of their fans was something that 0:10:18.636 --> 0:10:21.396 was interesting. The big thing about the Dead I remember 0:10:22.156 --> 0:10:26.236 was that they gave their road crew the same share 0:10:26.356 --> 0:10:27.636 that they got themselves. 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:29.276 Did you know that. I did not know that. 0:10:29.756 --> 0:10:33.276 Yeah, it was a true cooperative. So nobody got rich. 0:10:33.836 --> 0:10:36.676 Nobody they made a living, but they didn't get rich. 0:10:37.076 --> 0:10:38.876 It stands the reason in a way, because I imagine 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:42.116 just setting up that wall of sound that they were 0:10:42.156 --> 0:10:44.716 assembling must have been just as much work as in 0:10:44.756 --> 0:10:47.716 a way is that you know, the three hour jams 0:10:47.716 --> 0:10:50.316 that they were doing. You know, they're taking the audience requests. 0:10:50.516 --> 0:10:53.236 But they were definitely they were real contemporaries of the band, 0:10:53.276 --> 0:10:55.836 and they were a challenge in a sense because because 0:10:56.476 --> 0:10:58.796 they had a connection with their audience that I was 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:02.516 envious of. My belief. The thing about Lifehouse was is 0:11:02.556 --> 0:11:05.316 that there was a whole tract of thinking, which was 0:11:05.356 --> 0:11:10.116 about the function of rock music. What was it for, 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:13.916 what was it best at, what could it do that 0:11:13.996 --> 0:11:17.596 it hadn't done before? And that was an underlying theme. 0:11:18.316 --> 0:11:21.116 It was a conversation, it was a discussion. It was 0:11:21.236 --> 0:11:25.036 or it invited those things. It invited conversation, it invited discussion. 0:11:25.236 --> 0:11:30.196 It challenged the whole concept of people coming to see 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:33.676 a band, whoever that band was, and sitting down, you know, 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:36.796 smoking a bit of a joint and having you know, 0:11:36.916 --> 0:11:40.916 an experience of some sort. The idea was that for me, 0:11:41.956 --> 0:11:45.476 was that the who had somehow stumbled on through the 0:11:45.556 --> 0:11:50.476 mod movement, through the post war syndrome that young men 0:11:50.596 --> 0:11:55.676 had about you know, being worthless, being disenfranchised. It was 0:11:55.716 --> 0:11:58.636 a tremendous contrast to what was going on in the 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:02.276 seventies in America, which was an anti war movement, you know, 0:12:02.316 --> 0:12:06.916 against Vietnam, and quite rightly of course, But for us, 0:12:06.996 --> 0:12:10.236 as young men, we had been country that was actually 0:12:10.276 --> 0:12:14.956 at the front line of war. So we believed in victory, 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:18.196 We believed in fighting for a cause. We felt that 0:12:18.316 --> 0:12:23.036 America had come and taken part in the whole thing 0:12:23.076 --> 0:12:25.596 and saved us because towards the end we were very 0:12:25.596 --> 0:12:29.156 close to being beaten. So it was a new learning 0:12:29.196 --> 0:12:31.356 process in a sense to come to the States and 0:12:31.356 --> 0:12:37.476 feel that there was this pacifistic, hard driven pacifistic activist 0:12:38.156 --> 0:12:44.996 so passive aggressive pacifism. And for me, the main thing 0:12:45.156 --> 0:12:48.956 was this idea that music had a spiritual function rather 0:12:48.996 --> 0:12:52.876 than a political function. Rather than a function to change society, 0:12:53.316 --> 0:12:57.636 it was to change and communicate and uplift and provide 0:12:57.676 --> 0:13:01.756 solace and spiritual connection to people in the audience. And 0:13:01.796 --> 0:13:06.076 so that was part of the underlying idea about Lifehouse 0:13:06.236 --> 0:13:10.836 was what would be a really good that is, the 0:13:10.916 --> 0:13:14.076 equivalent of a rock band like The Who or led Zeppelin, 0:13:14.236 --> 0:13:16.596 or an artist like Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell or 0:13:16.596 --> 0:13:19.316 whomever going in front of an audience, or Sliming the 0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:22.876 Family Stone or Stevie Wonder or Prince or whomever going 0:13:22.916 --> 0:13:25.476 in front of an audience and playing music, and the 0:13:25.516 --> 0:13:28.596 audience going home and saying to each other, what the 0:13:28.636 --> 0:13:34.156 fuck happened there? Because I'm different, I'm actually different. 0:13:34.476 --> 0:13:36.996 You wanted to change people, You wanted the audience to 0:13:37.436 --> 0:13:39.556 similar to the way that the audience was as much 0:13:39.556 --> 0:13:41.196 a part of the Dead Show or the way that 0:13:41.276 --> 0:13:44.436 they created an engagement between themselves and the fans. You 0:13:44.476 --> 0:13:46.756 wanted to create a symbiosis in a way between the well. 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:51.476 Funny enough, I think, looking back, I'm interpolating some stuff 0:13:51.516 --> 0:13:56.316 which wasn't actually exactly true. At the time, I didn't 0:13:56.356 --> 0:13:59.596 really understand what the dead we were doing. I didn't 0:13:59.676 --> 0:14:03.476 understand the San Francisco scene at all. I spent a 0:14:03.516 --> 0:14:05.476 lot of time there, but I was a follower of 0:14:05.516 --> 0:14:08.876 a teacher called Maha Barber, and he there were a 0:14:08.916 --> 0:14:13.156 lot of Maya Barber people in San Francisco. There were 0:14:13.156 --> 0:14:15.796 a lot of people who followed lots of other spiritual 0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:18.316 masters as well. But I spent a lot of time there, 0:14:18.316 --> 0:14:21.876 and I never really quite got the San Francisco music scene. 0:14:21.996 --> 0:14:27.036 It seemed scruffy, it seemed disorganized, and it seemed to 0:14:27.276 --> 0:14:33.596 need focus. It seemed to lack focus. And I suppose 0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:37.356 what had actually happened with the Who as opposed to 0:14:37.396 --> 0:14:42.196 the Stones, as opposed to Led Zeppelin, as opposed to 0:14:42.236 --> 0:14:46.316 the Beatles, as opposed to the maybe less so the Kinks. 0:14:46.436 --> 0:14:48.636 The Kinks were more like Who in that there was 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:52.116 one writer and that was me, and that I was 0:14:52.196 --> 0:14:54.916 not just a songwriter. I was also an ex art 0:14:54.956 --> 0:15:00.516 schoolboy whose brain had been fried by a bunch of young, radical, 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:06.716 forward thinking artists who wanted to return to the Bowhouse 0:15:06.916 --> 0:15:12.476 method of thinking about art, which was not like Andy Warhol, 0:15:12.676 --> 0:15:16.556 was not like William Burrows was. You know. It was 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:21.636 orderly and structured and scientific and the idea that art 0:15:21.676 --> 0:15:24.596 itself had a function. So I was always looking for 0:15:24.676 --> 0:15:27.236 that function. And I had control of the Who because 0:15:27.236 --> 0:15:29.916 I was the only songwriter. John it Was all wrote 0:15:29.956 --> 0:15:33.116 really good songs the bass player, but they weren't really 0:15:33.156 --> 0:15:35.236 written for the Who. They were just written for him, 0:15:36.076 --> 0:15:38.036 and he never took on the Who as a cause 0:15:38.156 --> 0:15:40.516 celeb Anyway, that's another story. 0:15:40.556 --> 0:15:42.476 He Doctor Doctor, by the way, is one of my 0:15:42.556 --> 0:15:46.316 favorite end whistles Dunes, But well, the Pink Floyd's song 0:15:46.356 --> 0:15:47.716 Doctor Doctor is also great. 0:15:47.716 --> 0:15:48.356 Do you remember that? 0:15:48.436 --> 0:15:51.676 Yeah, Doctor it was. 0:15:52.236 --> 0:15:55.876 He wrote some really good songs, he did, but they 0:15:56.276 --> 0:15:59.836 were all very eccentric. When it came to Tommy and 0:15:59.956 --> 0:16:02.876 I had to face up the fact that I'd had 0:16:02.876 --> 0:16:07.596 some really terrible neglect and abuse as a young kid 0:16:07.676 --> 0:16:09.716 at four and a half years old, which had really 0:16:09.796 --> 0:16:12.716 kind of fucked me up for a while, and Luckily 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:15.956 my parents got back together and everything sorted itself out 0:16:15.996 --> 0:16:19.756 in time. I couldn't write the two songs that I needed, 0:16:19.796 --> 0:16:23.196 one about sexual abuse and the other about bullying. And 0:16:23.236 --> 0:16:26.436 I said to John, could you write a song, you know, 0:16:26.476 --> 0:16:28.316 for Uncle Ernie? And could you write a song for 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:30.516 cousin Kevin? And he just kind of rubbed his nose 0:16:30.556 --> 0:16:33.076 and said yep. And he came up with these two 0:16:33.676 --> 0:16:37.676 fucking brilliant songs. I mean, cousin Kevin is is like 0:16:38.196 --> 0:16:41.916 an Eric Sarti fuke. It's quite extraordinary. When we got 0:16:41.956 --> 0:16:45.836 to the movie with Ken Russell in the seventy four, 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:51.556 I had to orchestrate it, and as I started to 0:16:51.596 --> 0:16:54.636 analyze it, I started to realize what it is a 0:16:54.676 --> 0:16:58.116 proper fugue. But anyway, yeah, he was great, but I 0:16:58.196 --> 0:17:00.716 had control of the band. I did all the interviews. 0:17:01.076 --> 0:17:04.796 John very very rarely spoke, you know. Roger when he 0:17:04.876 --> 0:17:07.156 was asked to speak, usually spent a lot of time 0:17:07.956 --> 0:17:10.956 talking about how what a pain in the ass I was. 0:17:12.356 --> 0:17:16.116 Keith Moon just made jokes, you know. So I would do, 0:17:16.236 --> 0:17:18.756 you know, a six hour fucking interview with young Wenner 0:17:18.876 --> 0:17:21.596 for Rolling Stone, and he would publish every word you know, 0:17:21.716 --> 0:17:25.196 so I was in this place where I could talk 0:17:25.636 --> 0:17:29.596 the who trip as well as do it. I could 0:17:29.676 --> 0:17:31.716 talk it, I could Did you want to die or 0:17:31.716 --> 0:17:33.516 did you just feel the response? Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah 0:17:33.636 --> 0:17:37.196 I did. I did because I got feedback. And you know, 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:40.996 a lot of the feedback I got positive feedback was 0:17:40.996 --> 0:17:43.876 from journalists. So I'd do an interview and then the 0:17:43.916 --> 0:17:46.196 next time I would sit with the journalists, they would say, 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:48.476 do you mind if we sit and just hang out 0:17:48.556 --> 0:17:51.436 for a while and talk. So I would learn a 0:17:51.636 --> 0:17:54.276 huge amount from the journalists at the time as well, 0:17:54.356 --> 0:17:58.596 you know, Dave marsh and Grew Marcus and a lot 0:17:58.636 --> 0:18:01.196 of the big famous journalists of that era, and the 0:18:01.236 --> 0:18:06.476 photographers too. You know, they they all had a passion 0:18:06.956 --> 0:18:10.716 for what it was that that was hidden in the 0:18:10.836 --> 0:18:13.996 music industry at the time, and in the band industry 0:18:13.996 --> 0:18:16.316 at the time. The Beach Boys, the Beatles, the Stones, 0:18:16.396 --> 0:18:21.196 the Kinks, that who you know, Crosby, Steels, Nash, the 0:18:21.196 --> 0:18:24.276 f Jefferson Airplane, the leading figures of that period, that 0:18:24.316 --> 0:18:27.516 there was something that could be done that wasn't being 0:18:27.636 --> 0:18:31.916 done and won't get fooled again. I suppose was an 0:18:31.996 --> 0:18:36.596 expression against that. You know, we are not here to 0:18:36.716 --> 0:18:43.076 provide leadership, because leaders tend to be fly by night yeah, 0:18:43.196 --> 0:18:45.716 and dictators. Anyway, the thing about what I was saying 0:18:45.716 --> 0:18:49.836 about Life House was I wanted a model that seemed 0:18:49.836 --> 0:18:53.516 to me to emulate what was happening with the music 0:18:53.556 --> 0:19:01.196 business in the West, rock music in particular. And I thought, well, really, 0:19:01.276 --> 0:19:05.276 in a sense, what we're doing is we're removing, We're 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:10.356 not confronting, We're not dealing with the conclusive of societal 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:14.596 decisions that one would normally make when you were exposed 0:19:14.596 --> 0:19:18.716 to art. And this was true even of artists like 0:19:18.796 --> 0:19:24.156 Bob Dylan, whose work was evidently political. It wasn't happening 0:19:24.196 --> 0:19:28.956 with artists who were in the first wave of racial change, 0:19:29.556 --> 0:19:33.236 like the Temptations. They were still seen to be just 0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:36.836 a band. The conversations may have been happening with people 0:19:36.916 --> 0:19:39.596 at home, but I never got any real sense of it. So, 0:19:39.636 --> 0:19:43.076 in a way, I imagine that there would be a place, 0:19:43.676 --> 0:19:48.196 a world where music was just removed completely and what 0:19:48.276 --> 0:19:51.636 would be left. What would be left could still be dialogue, 0:19:51.676 --> 0:19:55.676 it could still be experienced, it could be exchanges, but 0:19:55.836 --> 0:20:00.236 basically it would be a world which was very, very 0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:02.356 easy to manipulate. 0:20:02.596 --> 0:20:04.676 So in other words, you're sort of saying you did 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:08.636 not feel that music was being taken seriously as and 0:20:08.836 --> 0:20:12.516 art form at the societal level. It wasn't. We weren't 0:20:12.516 --> 0:20:14.716 asking the questions that needed to be asked. 0:20:14.796 --> 0:20:16.916 No, I think every now and again, for example, when 0:20:17.676 --> 0:20:21.236 the kids got shot in Ohio, Crosby Steelson n Ash 0:20:21.236 --> 0:20:24.716 did that amazing song called for Dead in Ohio, which 0:20:24.796 --> 0:20:28.116 was an expression, but that's rebellion, that's you know, that's 0:20:28.196 --> 0:20:32.316 albut Camu and you know, create dangerously and rebellion. He 0:20:32.396 --> 0:20:35.076 died in nineteen sixty, so most people don't know anything 0:20:35.116 --> 0:20:39.116 about him now. But you know, we still we still 0:20:39.396 --> 0:20:42.036 live in that place where we have to accept that. 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:45.756 You know. The synthesizer was invented by Russians in nineteen 0:20:45.876 --> 0:20:50.396 twenty six. Thirty five of them were invited to meet Stalin, 0:20:50.556 --> 0:20:54.116 Joseph Stalin. He gave them dinner, and then he lined 0:20:54.156 --> 0:20:57.956 them up outside and he shot them all. So, in 0:20:57.956 --> 0:21:01.956 a sense, the emulation the idea that musicians were dangerous, 0:21:02.476 --> 0:21:08.156 that music was dangerous. He tried to destroy Schoenberg, he 0:21:08.236 --> 0:21:12.116 tried to destroy Stravinsky. They both managed to get away. 0:21:12.436 --> 0:21:14.956 Schumburg actually stayed but he managed to say, if we 0:21:15.116 --> 0:21:17.276 managed to get away with this life. But you know, 0:21:17.596 --> 0:21:21.716 of course Stalin was killing everybody. But basically that idea 0:21:21.836 --> 0:21:25.196 that music was was was if it's dangerous, why is 0:21:25.196 --> 0:21:29.276 it dangerous? It's because it's capable of stirring up. What 0:21:29.436 --> 0:21:32.156 we see now in the fiftieth Anniversary of Hip Hop 0:21:32.676 --> 0:21:35.556 is Chuck d talking about the fact that he's been 0:21:35.596 --> 0:21:40.116 part of a miracle of societal change and racial change. 0:21:40.356 --> 0:21:42.236 And it all started with, you know, a bunch of 0:21:42.756 --> 0:21:47.476 boys playing one of Roger Lynn's wonderful, funny machines. And 0:21:47.596 --> 0:21:52.036 so in a sense, I wanted something as big and 0:21:52.076 --> 0:21:55.396 as powerful a model as that, just as I had 0:21:55.436 --> 0:21:58.796 with Tommy. I'd made Tommy deaf, dumb and blind. I 0:21:58.876 --> 0:22:02.236 wanted all of the participants in my story to be 0:22:02.716 --> 0:22:07.596 effectively deaf, dumb, and blind to music to change, and 0:22:07.956 --> 0:22:10.436 that they were happy, they were comfortable, they were safe, 0:22:10.636 --> 0:22:13.196 but they were never going to be released. And in 0:22:13.196 --> 0:22:18.556 a way, one of the most important things about Lifehouse 0:22:18.956 --> 0:22:25.636 that echoes today is the danger of a bipartisan but 0:22:25.836 --> 0:22:29.676 also highly polarized political system. And it's not just America, 0:22:29.756 --> 0:22:33.356 it's the UK too, It's all over the world apart 0:22:33.356 --> 0:22:37.476 from dictatorships in democracy, creating a place in which people 0:22:37.836 --> 0:22:41.076 are separated from each other, that the conversation tends to 0:22:41.116 --> 0:22:44.116 be people shouting at each other rather than speaking to 0:22:44.196 --> 0:22:49.476 each other sensibly, and that music therefore has become incredibly shallow. 0:22:49.876 --> 0:22:54.196 It's fucking brilliant, a lot of it, without question, really 0:22:54.236 --> 0:22:57.276 brilliant stuff, but it's like the froth on the top 0:22:57.316 --> 0:23:00.236 of the coffee, and it comes and goes very quickly. 0:23:00.636 --> 0:23:04.516 The pop industry has always done that. It's always have 0:23:04.556 --> 0:23:06.356 to be careful not to get canceled here, but it 0:23:06.436 --> 0:23:11.196 always has been most effective for young girls who get 0:23:11.196 --> 0:23:15.196 a record, listen to it together, learn dances, learn all 0:23:15.236 --> 0:23:17.076 the songs, and then when they go to a concert 0:23:17.116 --> 0:23:20.156 they sing. You know that. It's something that's always been 0:23:20.196 --> 0:23:22.796 really important about pop. Sadly, it was never a part 0:23:22.836 --> 0:23:26.996 of the whose career, not because we were ugly fuckers. 0:23:27.076 --> 0:23:30.036 It was because I decided I didn't want girl fans. 0:23:30.076 --> 0:23:33.676 I felt that they weren't they weren't loyal enough, So. 0:23:34.036 --> 0:23:36.316 That was kind of real calculation at some point. 0:23:36.316 --> 0:23:39.516 Oh yeah, yeah. When I was a kid, my dad 0:23:39.556 --> 0:23:42.396 was in a dance band and there was this guy 0:23:42.436 --> 0:23:45.756 who was a big heart, throb Jewish guy, handsome Jewish 0:23:45.796 --> 0:23:50.756 guy called Frankie Vaughan. He was pre Engelbert Humperdink and 0:23:50.836 --> 0:23:53.836