1 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: It's the middle of Exercise Able Archer when Leonard Perutz 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: receives an NSA report that Soviet Air Force planes in 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: East Germany are on high alert, at least one squadron 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: is likely loaded with real nuclear warheads, and his boss 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: is asking him to make a decision on whether the 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: US Air Force should escalate in kind. Should we put 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: our aircraft on alert, should we prepare our nuclear weapons 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: to escalate or not to escalate? That is the question. 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: I'm at helms and this is snafu Able Archer eighty three. 10 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: General Perutz makes a really critical decision at this time, 11 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: but he's not making this decision based on any knowledge 12 00:00:58,800 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: about what's happening. 13 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: This is Greg Elder, the chief historian of the DIA, 14 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: the Defense Intelligence Agency. Greg says, at the time that 15 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: Leonard Perudes was facing this critical decision, he didn't know 16 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: what was happening, not fully, he didn't know the depths 17 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: of Soviet paranoia that for years, under Operation Ryan, the 18 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: Soviets had been accumulating evidence of an imminent nuclear attack 19 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: on their proverbial tic tac toe board of Doom. 20 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: Seems the craziest of satires that you could ever imagine. 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: He didn't know the Soviets had intercepted a NATO message 22 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: approving a fictional nuclear strike upon the Soviet Union, who. 23 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: Was requesting use of twenty five nuclear weapons over. 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: He didn't know that Ole Gordoyevski had received a telegram 25 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: from Moscow saying that the countdown to a nuclear attack 26 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: might have already begun under the guise of able archer 27 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: and you it was. 28 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 4: A dramatic moment, and you Moscow was. 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: He didn't know that another secret agent, Rhyner Rupp, was 30 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: running to a phone booths to transmit an urgent message 31 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: via his super high tech spy calculator that NATO was 32 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: not planning to attack and that the KGB didn't believe him. 33 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 5: Might well have just been another form of deception. 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: And he didn't know that Soviet missile commanders were on alert, 35 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: awaiting instructions to launch. 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 5: Are these guys about to attack us? 37 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 6: Are they about to launch nuclear weapons? 38 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: Leonard Perutz knew none of this? How could he? We 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: hadn't made the podcast yet. All he knew was that 40 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: in East Germany, Soviet planes were on high alert and 41 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: at least one squadron likely had real nuclear weapons loaded 42 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: onto their aircrafts, and his boss was asking him a question. 43 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 6: You know, Lenny, should we heighten our alert level? 44 00:02:53,760 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: To escalate or not to escalate. If Leonard Berutz does 45 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: nothing and the Soviets carry out a nuclear attack, he 46 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,839 Speaker 1: will have wasted precious minutes, minutes where NATO forces could 47 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: have prepared some sort of defense, minutes that could save lives. 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: But if he recommends to his boss to escalate and 49 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: it turns out the Soviets weren't actually planning a nuclear strike, well, 50 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: the very active escalation could spook them. It could be 51 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: seen as an act of aggression. It could cause the 52 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: Soviets to do the very thing he was trying to prevent, 53 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: launch a nuclear weapon. Once again, to escalate or not 54 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: to escalate. 55 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: And so he recommends to his four star commander that 56 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: we not escalate. 57 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: In kind, he says, let's watch and wait. 58 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: He makes the determination that it's very possible the Soviets 59 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: may just be increasing their own alert and readiness level 60 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: because of their own concerns about our exercise and so 61 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: general perudes. Although making an uninformed decision in this case, 62 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: makes a thoroughly rational and what turned out to be 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: the correct decision. 64 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: In a tense moment, Leonard Perudes didn't flex one single 65 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: military muscle. He didn't kick the tires and light the fires. 66 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,799 Speaker 1: He left the fires unlit and the tires unkicked. Instead, 67 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: he aired on the side of caution. 68 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: Here is one of those examples where a US military 69 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: figure actually took the less hawkish approach, so to speak, 70 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: and that ultimately helps to alleviate the situation. 71 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: So on the night of November ninth, as Soviet leaders 72 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: sat in their bunkers watching to see what the United 73 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: States military would do next, they saw nothing. 74 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: So that major indicator that they may have been looking 75 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: for ultimately wasn't there. 76 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: The next morning, the sun came up and there were 77 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: no mushroom clouds on the horizon, just regular clouds, big 78 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: floaty blops. 79 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 2: And so when able archers over, the Soviets wait a 80 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: few days and then essentially stand. 81 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: Down, anti climactic much. I know you came for explosions, 82 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: but hey, if there were explosions at this point in 83 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: the story, you'd be listening to this podcast from an 84 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: underground mole town living in a community that hadn't seen 85 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: the sun in forty years. Be grateful. Leonard Brutes fortuitously 86 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: made the decision that brought the Able Archer War scare 87 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: to a close, And the most absolutely insane part of 88 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: it is that he wasn't even aware of what he 89 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: was doing. The roots may have single handedly saved all 90 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: of humankind, and the dude has no clue exactly how 91 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 1: important that decision was. He was cool as a cukee. 92 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: His shift ends, he punches out, grabs a pint and 93 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: schnitzel at the pub, just another day at the office. 94 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 7: That decision made is attributed to out of misinformations, even 95 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 7: described as that of ignorance. It was the right call, 96 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 7: thank god, but it was made out of ignorance of 97 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 7: all the other things that were going on. 98 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 2: We not knowing that there was any major significant issue 99 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: to begin with, go about our daily business, and it 100 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: isn't for some time that there's a full appreciation of 101 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: how bad things really were. 102 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: It's November fourteenth, nineteen eighty three, three days after the 103 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: end of Able Archer. Reagan is just returning to DC 104 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: from his trip to Japan and Korea. He's exiting a 105 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: helicopter and walking towards a podium set up on the 106 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: White House lawn. Nancy is trailing behind him, holding the 107 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: hands of two small Korean children. 108 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 8: Nancy was outsight seeing or probably even shopping for souvenirs, 109 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,559 Speaker 8: and knowing Nancy as well as I do, I wasn't 110 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 8: surprised when I came home and found that she had 111 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 8: two little Korean friends. 112 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: To be clear, these two children were being brought back 113 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: to the United States for medical care, not because Nancy 114 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: kidnapped them or something. Anyway, Reagan's in good spirits. He's 115 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: flashing his classic Hollywood smile, cracking jokes in this ten 116 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: minute speech. He doesn't mention the Soviet Union, and if 117 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: he has any inkling of what happened during Able Archer 118 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: a few days prior, he doesn't let. 119 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 8: On, God bless you and God bless this wonderful country. 120 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 6: Thank you, you wipe out here. 121 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 8: I translate pretty well, got eight hours sleep on the 122 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 8: boat rally. 123 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: But the truth is, in this very moment, Reagan wouldn't 124 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: have known much about Able Archer, even if he was 125 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: totally up to speed. US intelligence didn't know shit at 126 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: this point, just that over in East Germany a squadron 127 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: of planes were on high alert and they may have 128 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: loaded nuclear warheads. That information made it to Leonard Perut's desk. Sure, 129 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: but who knows if it got all the way to Reagan. 130 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: If only we could know what was in his head, 131 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: if only there was some document that was a written 132 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: record of his actual thoughts. November eighteenth, nineteen eighty three. 133 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: I feel the Soviets are so defense minded, so paranoid 134 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: about being attacked, that, without being in any way soft 135 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: on them, we ought to tell them no one here 136 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: has any intention of doing anything like that. What the 137 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: hi double hockey sticks have they got that anyone would want? Okay, 138 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: putting aside my terrible Reagan impression, he really did write that, 139 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: so something must have prompted him to ruminate on the 140 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: Soviet's nuclear paranoia. Nonetheless, that didn't stop what came next. 141 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: George is going on ABC right after its big nuclear 142 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: bomb film Sunday Night. We know it's anti nuke propaganda, 143 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: but we're going to take it over and say it 144 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: shows why we must keep on doing what we're doing. Yep. 145 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: This is when Reagan sent George Schultz on national television 146 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: to tell an absolutely terrified American public that our nuclear 147 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: policy was working perfectly. 148 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 5: The successful policy of the United States. 149 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what this calls for thanks Day after Lady. 150 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: The thing is, even though Able Archer is over, it 151 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we're safe. It doesn't mean the Soviets 152 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: have stopped to being afraid of a surprise nuclear attack. 153 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: Think about it. If there's a guy who keeps saying 154 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: he might literally kick your ass, and then he starts 155 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: pulling his foot back for a literal kick, and you 156 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: think this is it, He's gonna literally kick my ass, 157 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: but then it turns out he's just practicing for his 158 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: Rockhets audition. Well that doesn't mean that he won't still 159 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: someday take a leave of absence from the Rockets to 160 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: come back and kick you in the ass. Guys, I 161 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: think we have our submission for this year's Perfect Analogy Awards. Anyway, 162 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: the point is the Soviets were still on edge. The 163 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: day after George Schultz reassured a terrified American public that 164 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: the US nuclear policy was definitely, absolutely totally a safe bet, 165 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: the Soviets reached out with an offer. They said, we'll 166 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: destroy half of our intermediate range nuclear missiles, the ones 167 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: that could target Europe, if NATO will cancel the euro missiles. 168 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: The Reagan administration declined the offer, saying that the conditions 169 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,599 Speaker 1: of the agreement were unacceptable, as if rubbing salt in 170 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: the wound. Those euro missiles were officially installed in Europe 171 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: mere days later in response, and drop off scheduled the 172 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: deployment of new seaborn nuclear missiles pointed at the US 173 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: and additional nukes aimed at Western Europe. 174 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: If the President doesn't even know that there's something going 175 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: on to be concerned about, that, that's a problem, that's 176 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: a failure that has to be addressed. 177 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: And yet, despite Reagan's televised message saying that the administration's 178 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: policy was perfect, absolutely flawless, in the background, they would 179 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: begin working on an extremely subtle shift in their Soviet strategy. 180 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: It wouldn't be a policy change per se. They wouldn't 181 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: cancel the euro missiles, they wouldn't stop building SDI, and 182 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: they wouldn't stop being tough, but they'd be less adversarial. 183 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: They'd attempt to let the Soviets know that nobody has 184 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: any intention of nuking them. 185 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 8: Hugh. 186 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: That charmingly folksy Ivan and Anya speech. 187 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 8: And as they went their separate ways, maybe Anya would 188 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 8: be saying to Ivan, wasn't she nice? 189 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: She also teaches music. 190 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 8: They might even have decided they were all going to 191 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 8: get together. 192 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: For dinner some evening soon, but apparently Reagan didn't feel 193 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: any urgency to display this new softer side. The speech 194 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: was originally scheduled for just before Christmas, but Reagan delayed 195 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: it for nearly a month because someone very important advised 196 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: him to Who was it. Why don't you take a 197 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: guess whose advice would President of the United States Ronald 198 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: Reagan heed in regards to delaying the Soviet Friendship speech 199 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: in the weeks after almost getting nuked. The Joint chiefs 200 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: of Staff, Nope, The Secretary General of the UN Nope, 201 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa. If only it was Nancy. Reagan's astrologer, a 202 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: San Francisco woman named Joan Quigley. Anyway, while Reagan was 203 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: waiting for Joan Quigley's permission to extend an olive branch 204 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: to the Soviet Union, the US intelligence community got some 205 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: unwelcome news. 206 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 7: I think it was two or three weeks before actual 207 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 7: other reporting came in that started to peak his concerns. 208 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: Here's John Perutz again talking about his dad, Leonard Perutz. 209 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: According to John, on December second, nineteen eighty three. A 210 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: few weeks after Leonard made the decision to do nothing 211 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: during Able Archer, a new NSA report landed on his desk. 212 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 7: That indicated that their alert level had been much larger 213 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 7: than we had assumed. 214 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: Hey, funny story. Remember that Able Archer exercise that ended 215 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: with US fake nuking Thozovits Well, you're totally gonna laugh 216 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: at this. I mean, it's so ridiculous. But anyway, it 217 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: turns out the Soviets alert during Abel Archer was just 218 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: a tad bigger than we thought. It wasn't just a 219 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: few planes in East Germany. It was all the units 220 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: of the Soviet fourth Air Army. The alert was ordered 221 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: by the Chief of the Soviet Air Forces, and the 222 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: alert quote included preparations for immediate use of nuclear weapons 223 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: end quote. All right, I want to explain what this means. 224 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: This is hundreds of airplanes potentially loaded with nukes, not 225 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: just a squadron. We're talking potentially the end of the 226 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: world number of airplanes. It's a pretty big fucking difference. 227 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 7: Extraordinarily unusual in alarming events. From an intelligien standpoint. 228 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: Leonardprutz was, well, let's just say a little shaken by 229 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: this news. 230 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 6: Hmmm, wow, that would have been interesting to know at 231 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 6: the time. 232 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: Got to hope he wasn't drinking coffee when he read 233 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: that report, because he would have had the mother of 234 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: all spit takes. He was wondering, why the hell is 235 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: he just finding out about this now? This was information 236 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: that he needed weeks ago. He realized he had made 237 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: a decision that could have had catastrophic consequences with only 238 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: a tiny fraction of the picture, and even though it 239 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: turned out to be the right decision, he was pissed. 240 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: Leonard Perutz got on a soapbox about abel Archer. He 241 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: complained to any of his colleagues who would listen. 242 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 7: He wasn't certain that that the community, the intelligence community, 243 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 7: had looked closely enough to figure out how we could 244 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 7: get better from this scenario. 245 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: But nobody listened to him. They just didn't think it 246 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: was that big of a deal because even with this 247 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: new information, US intelligence still didn't know the full picture, 248 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: and they never would have if it wasn't for one 249 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: Oleg Gordievski. 250 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 9: Do you remember meeting the British at any point during 251 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 9: abel Archer exercise? 252 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 4: I think I met them in the end of the 253 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 4: able Archer. Yes, I spoke to the to Joe Scarlets 254 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 4: about EVERYTHINGE Pichet experienced. 255 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: That's Gordievsky. After Able Archer. Sometime in November nineteen eighty three, 256 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: he met with his I six handler, a man with 257 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: a name right out of a spy novel, John Scarlet. 258 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 4: Britain's an operational officer. 259 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: Wow, Gordy, fast and loose with the compliments. All of 260 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: a sudden, he handed Scarlet the urgent flash telegram he 261 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: had just received from Moscow. 262 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 4: It said the American exercise may be preparation to a 263 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 4: sudden new play attack. When I told Joe Scarlet for 264 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 4: him it was important. 265 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: Soon word that a nuclear war scare may have just 266 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: unfolded under exercise. Able Archer landed on the desk of 267 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: the Iron Lady herself, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. To her credit, 268 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: when she did hear what Gordievski had told John Scarlett, 269 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: she was definitely spooked. Hopefully she wasn't sipping tea at 270 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: the time, or she might have experienced the Queen mother 271 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: of all spit takes. See how I made a call back, 272 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: but I made a British. 273 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 4: As it illized that's was a serious so the Russians 274 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 4: are afraid of something. They're afraid of the Strategic Defense Initiative, 275 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 4: and they're afraid of the ideological speeches by Reagan than shoots. 276 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: In March of nineteen eighty four, Thatcher sent her ambassador 277 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: to Washington to communicate a warning to the US government. 278 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: Her message was this, Reagan needs to cool it with 279 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: the nukes. The Soviets nearly started a war because of 280 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: this shit. The meeting apparently did not go well. The 281 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: ambassador wouldn't tell the Americans exactly who their secret source was, 282 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: so the Reagan rep said, we're gonna keep doing peace 283 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: through stre thank you very much. But fine, we'll have 284 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: the CIA look into your concerns about this silly little 285 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: Able Archer stuff, since you've got you old Nikas in 286 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: a twist about it. Now, given everything we know about 287 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: Able Archer, it's pretty damn surprising that when the CIA 288 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: did look into it, they didn't find anything at all. 289 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 9: So here we have all right, So this is implications 290 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 9: of recent Soviet military political activities, and this is the 291 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 9: first CIA report on what happened during the war Scan 292 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 9: and what happened during Able Archer. 293 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: You remember Nate Jones are Able Archer sleuth. The document 294 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: he's holding is called the SNIE, another acronym shocker. It 295 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: stands for Special National Intelligence Estimate. It's the CIA's response 296 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: to the British request to look into Able Archer. This 297 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: top secret report was written in May of nineteen eighty four. 298 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 1: It's about six pages long. In the document, the CIA 299 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: analysts list everything unusual they've observed the Soviet Union doing 300 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: over the past six months. They talk about the construction 301 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: of new missile sites, big military exercises, and of course 302 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: the fact that during Exercise Able Archer, the Soviets escalated 303 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: their nuclear readiness. But despite listing all of these concerning things. 304 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 9: Overall, our conclusion is that it wasn't very dangerous and 305 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 9: it was not a very big deal. 306 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: Hmm. You may be wondering, like me and anybody else 307 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: with the brain cell, how exactly is this not a 308 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: big deal? Did you watch the day after? I bet 309 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: when you're reduced to a cloud of dust drifting over 310 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: a radioactive wasteland, then you'd call it a big deal. 311 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: There's only one paragraph that details the Soviet military reaction, 312 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: specifically to Able Archer, about those planes in East Germany 313 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: and Poland going on high alert. So how did the 314 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: CIA explain it. 315 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 9: The theory is that the Soviets are doing a massive 316 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 9: propaganda campaign to trick the West into thinking that they're 317 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 9: very scared of a preemptive nuclear strike, but that they 318 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 9: weren't really scared. 319 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 8: Ah. 320 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: Yes, of course, more mind games and the age of 321 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons love that for us. 322 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 9: The thinking goes that this campaign was to make the 323 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 9: West stop deploying the new missiles to Europe. Is the 324 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 9: reason for the campaign. That's what some people believed. 325 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: You can tell what Nate makes of this theory, but 326 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: it wasn't altogether implausible. The idea was if the Soviet 327 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: leaders were very public about their fear of nuclear war 328 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: with the United States, then American and European citizens would 329 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: freak out. They would call on NATO to take the 330 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: Persian two and Cruise missiles out of Europe, and that 331 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: would be a win for the Soviets, some successful mind fuckery. 332 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: The SNIE report is confident in this propaganda theory. They 333 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: don't waiver. They even say, and I quote, we cannot 334 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: at this point conduct a detailed examination of how the 335 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: Soviets perceived recent NATO military activities. But even so, we 336 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: are confident the Soviets do not fear a military clash 337 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: with the United. 338 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 9: States, so I think they might be writing to a conclusion. 339 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 9: So the conclusion is that there's no real danger. Reagan's 340 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 9: policy is working, putting more nuclear weapons into Europe is 341 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 9: a good idea, and the Soviet reaction to able Archer 342 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 9: and the broader war scare can't be real. So therefore 343 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 9: it's just propaganda. 344 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: Now this report, it's talking about what the CIA has 345 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: seen the Soviet military do. It doesn't cite Gordievski's account 346 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: of the KGB flash telegram that he says he received, 347 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: and apparently that's because the CIA doesn't know exactly who 348 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: Gordievski is. Six can't just say, yeah, we got a 349 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: guy on the inside. His name is Oleg. He wears 350 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: a fake go tee and a wig, because there was 351 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: always the chance that Oleg's double agent super secret status 352 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: could get back to Russia if the CIA had a 353 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: mole oo foreshadowing. So the CIA doesn't consider Gordievsky's story 354 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: when they write the SNIE. Maybe they thought the source 355 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: was a plant. Maybe they thought he was just another 356 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: victim of the Soviet leader's propaganda or and this is 357 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: the explanation that involves the least amount of tinker tailor 358 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: shadow game hall of Mirror thinking maybe they knew that 359 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: his story made them look really, really bad. And I 360 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: only say that because of what happens next. After the 361 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: CIA writes this report, they need to share it with 362 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: their NATO allies since they all participated Enable Archer together. 363 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: Nate found this version of the report filed in the 364 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: State Department archives. So there are two versions of this. 365 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 9: There's the version the CIA initially put out, and then 366 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 9: I foia the State Department and got its version, and 367 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 9: its version is pretty interesting. 368 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: Nate knew there was a small chance that the State 369 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: Department's version of this document would be slightly different. Maybe 370 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: there'd be fewer redactions, or maybe there'd be some other 371 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: able Archer clue. When Nate received the State Department's version 372 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: of the SNIE, he ripped the envelope open. He quickly 373 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: scanned through the document and was shocked not at what 374 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: he found but what he didn't find. 375 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 9: But in this version that they shared with their allies, 376 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 9: they cut out all mention of able Archer and so 377 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 9: if you compare it too, you see where the CIA 378 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 9: version talks about Able Archer. The version of the State 379 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 9: Department shared with the British and NATO allies just cutting 380 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 9: out and deleting the most dangerous part of the war, 381 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 9: scare Able Archer. 382 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: The side by side comparison is pretty wild. Word for word, 383 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: the entire document is exactly the same until you get 384 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: to the paragraph about Able Archer in the State Department version. 385 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: It's just gone erased. 386 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 9: It Actually, it comes across as kind of absurd. 387 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: Absurd is a good word here. Let's break this down. 388 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: The British asked the CIA to check out Able Archer. 389 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: The CIA finds evidence of a Soviet military reaction to 390 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: Able Archer, but decides not to share it, going as 391 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: far as scrubbing all mention of Able Archer in the 392 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: report they give back to the British. That's not just absurd, 393 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: that's weird. And the obvious question becomes, why did they 394 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: do that? 395 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 9: Well, I think to control the narrative, so to speak. 396 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 9: I think every author had their own point of view 397 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 9: that they wanted to convey, and they probably thought it 398 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 9: was true, and they took the facts that they had 399 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 9: from their intelligence and twisted the conclusions about the facts 400 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 9: to advocate what they wanted. 401 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: The CIA, the analysts who are involved in that estimate 402 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: have a vested interest in protecting their own reputations. Nobody 403 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 3: wants to say they got it wrong, right. I don't 404 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 3: want to turn that into like some great conspiracy theory. 405 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: That's just that's human nature. It's really hard to get 406 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 3: people to re examine their opinions at the time. 407 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: That's nuclear expert Jeffrey Lewis. 408 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 3: Everyone has a dog in the fight, and those stakes 409 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: really come down to this question of whether the people 410 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: who were charged with managing the arms race, whether those 411 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 3: people were competent and responsible, or whether they were just 412 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: like everybody else and bumbling their way through. And so 413 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 3: there is an enormous incentive for people to say it 414 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 3: wasn't that bad, because if it was that bad, then 415 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 3: that discredits their claimed expertise. 416 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: And we all know there is literally nothing worse in 417 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: the world than having your expertise discredited. I mean, I 418 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: can't think of anything worse. I mean, it seems like 419 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: there should be something, I just can't think of it. 420 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: Oh well, able archer would become a hot button issue 421 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: and create a divide in the intelligence community. It would 422 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: separate people into two passionate camps, people who bought into 423 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: the propaganda theory and people who believed that able Archer 424 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: was a catastrophic near miss. The official CIA party line 425 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: was the propaganda theory. That thing really had happened. They 426 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: were happy to shove it under the rug. Big fuck up. Nope, 427 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: not us. We never make mistakes. And I know you're 428 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: going to try to bring up the Iran thing and 429 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: the Congo thing and the Chili thing, but we're not 430 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: talking about those right now. But walking through the halls 431 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: of the Pentagon was a particular US intelligence official who 432 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: just wasn't buying the propaganda theory, propaganda, and he would 433 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: not remain quiet. 434 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 6: My father was a unique man. He was full of 435 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 6: energy and passion and love. 436 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: This is John Perutz again talking about his father, Lieutenant 437 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: General Leonard Perutz. 438 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 6: He was a great man, guys. I mean I miss 439 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 6: him every day. 440 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: John, like his father, is an intelligence officer. He works 441 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: at the DIA. 442 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 7: As the director of the Defense Debriefing Service DIA. 443 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 6: I'm responsible for. 444 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 7: A global force posture that conducts strategic debriefings and interrogation 445 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 7: missions for DIA. It's human intelligence and beyond. 446 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 6: That I can't really tell you a whole lot more. 447 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 6: I'm sorry, that's okay, John. 448 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: A few years after Able Archer, Perutz was home from Germany, 449 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: now the director of the DIA, and one day he 450 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: was told a story of a mysterious MI six source 451 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: who claimed that in nineteen eighty three, the Soviet leadership 452 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: believed NATO was using a military exercise as cover for 453 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: a nuclear attack. 454 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 7: When he substantiated it, I mean then for Manny Perutes, 455 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 7: the wheels came off, he said, you know, you got 456 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 7: to be kidding me. 457 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: Peruts was stunned and furious. This was the side of 458 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: the able Archer store. Sorry, he had never even known 459 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: KGB paranoia, fear and Operation Ryan. Put that together with 460 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: what Perots knew about Soviet military action, and you've got 461 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: yourself a saucy tango with nuclear armageddon. Oh. Lenny went 462 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: up to his attic, got his old soap box and 463 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: plopped it down right in the middle of the Pentagon. 464 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: He was like, guys, we have got to look at 465 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: this again. We didn't get it right the first time. 466 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 7: He was making his point clear that we, you know, 467 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 7: let's make sure we learn from this, you know, and 468 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 7: people didn't want to hear it. Some had been on 469 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 7: record clearly saying, hey, that Sovie has really fear never 470 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 7: feared us. We've looked at it more than once, and 471 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 7: we stand by our view that they didn't fear first 472 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 7: strike by the United States, and I don't doubt for 473 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 7: one minute that was their professional belief. 474 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: But this time Leonard Peruts wasn't going to let it go. 475 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 6: I think at that point, Dad, it said, you know, 476 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 6: I got it. I'm leaving. I gotta go on record. 477 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: When Leonard Perutz retired from his job as the director 478 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: of the Defense Intelligence Agency in January nineteen eighty nine, 479 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: he did so with guns ablazing. He wrote a letter 480 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: his final parting shot. Listen here, you motherfuckers. Now, I'm joking. 481 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: Obviously this is the honorable Leonard Peruts after all, But 482 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: the letter is badass. Leonard wrote his whole story. He says, 483 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: here's what happened during Abel Archer. I didn't have the 484 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 1: information I needed. If I did have it, I'm not 485 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: sure what decision I would have made. Does that not 486 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: scare you all as much as it scares me? He 487 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: ends the letter by asking an ominous question, what would 488 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: have happened that day. If I had made the other decision. 489 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 7: I read the letter that my father wrote, just saying, hey, 490 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 7: what if, And I don't think he contended that nuclear 491 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 7: war It certainly would have happened, But the notion that 492 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 7: we would have inadvertently increased the likelihood that it could 493 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 7: happen was the problem. You might want to look into 494 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 7: this yet again, because it's too important not to. 495 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: On the day of his retirement, he blasted this memo 496 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: out to anybody and everybody who had the security clearance 497 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: to read it, and truth be told, most of the 498 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: recipients were not interested. The institutional wisdom was let sleeping 499 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: able archers lie, if you get my meaning. But finally 500 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: he caught someone's attention. 501 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 9: Essentially, that memo spurred the PIFFYAB of presidential Organization to 502 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 9: undertake this large, very large task. 503 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: That's Nate Jones again, ever, sleuthing behind the able archer scenes. 504 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: PIFYAB is another wonderful acronym short for President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory. 505 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: The PIFYAB is a panel of citizens appointed by the President, 506 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: who by now was George Bush Senior. It's important to 507 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: note these people are not intelligence professionals. They're not even 508 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: necessarily government people. They're an oversight committee of political scientists, historians, 509 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: and lawyers who get special security clearance to access all 510 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: the government's juicy secrets. When they received Leonard Perutz's letter 511 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine, they read it with as much 512 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: urgency as Perots had written it. They were terrified by 513 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: the tale he told, and since they were unencumbered by 514 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: CIA politics, they were going to investigate able Archer properly. 515 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: This time, the PIFYAB would spend a year digging into 516 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: able Archer. They'd analyze every report, interviewed dozens of people involved, 517 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: and compile it all together in a highly classified, one 518 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: hundred page report build to the brim with government secrets. 519 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: The study was highly restricted, regardless of security clearance. Only 520 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: those who absolutely needed to know got to read it. 521 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: But even intelligence professionals love a little juicy GUS people 522 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: started whispering. The rumor was that this PIFYAB report was 523 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: really critical of operational mistakes, and that it confirmed, contrary 524 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: to the SNIE, that we may have been frighteningly close 525 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: to an all out war in nineteen eighty three. And 526 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: even though almost nobody could actually read the Pifyab report. 527 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: This rumor mill elevated it to a kind of mythical status. Now, 528 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: certain intelligence officials were questioning the conventional wisdom. If the 529 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: Piffy Ab allegedly said that Able Archer was a disaster, 530 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: maybe it really was a near miss. Now at this point, 531 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: Leonard Prutz was running up and down the halls of 532 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: the CIA screaming, I told you so well. I mean, 533 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: I can't verify that he actually did that, but it's 534 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: what I would have done, so I guess I'm just projecting. 535 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 10: I had heard of it in passing, but I'd never 536 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 10: gotten into it any depth. 537 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 5: I just knew that people talked about it. 538 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 1: Listeners, Meet Ben Fisher. 539 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 5: My name is Ben Fisher. 540 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 10: I shd arts the German spelling, and I worked for 541 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 10: the Central Intelligence Agency for over thirty years. 542 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: Ben wasn't involved in the CIA's initial Able Archer investigations 543 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: at that time. He had a very different job at 544 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: the CIA. 545 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 10: I was undercover for a number of years, about fifteen years. 546 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: Pretty exciting. Right in the nineties. Been left the undercover 547 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: world for a much quieter life as a CIA historian, 548 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: and that's when he decided to look into Able Archer. 549 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 5: There were differences of opinion. 550 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 10: The issue had never really been resolved to everyone's satisfaction, 551 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 10: and so that's what I set out to do. 552 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 5: When I started the research. 553 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 10: Colleague of mine got me aside and he said, I 554 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 10: want you to to know that this is a very 555 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 10: controversial issue within the intelligence community. That's not just the CIA, 556 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 10: that's also the Pentagon State Department, and people staked out 557 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 10: diametrically opposed opinions on this episode. And he said, no 558 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 10: matter what you find, you're going to offend one side 559 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 10: or the other, and it's going to hurt your career. 560 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: That didn't really FaZe Ben as far as he was concerned. 561 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: As an historian. He was already in the sunset of 562 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: his career. 563 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 10: Which of course is the beauty of being on the 564 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 10: history staff. You don't have anything to risk. You can 565 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 10: reach your. 566 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 5: Own conclusions and write it up and let people deal 567 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 5: with it. 568 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: Ben began his research knowing that he eventually planned to 569 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: publish his work publicly. He was careful to use only 570 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: declassified sources. He did not read the PIFIAD report, but 571 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: even so he was terrified by what he found. 572 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 10: It was very disturbing, and it led me to believe 573 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 10: that this was a very serious matter. 574 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: Ben didn't think his CIA colleagues had gotten it right 575 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: in the eighties. From what he could tell, the CIA 576 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: had underestimated the Soviets fear. It was very possible Able 577 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: Archer was a big deal. After all. 578 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 10: I will say that on several occasions, people much higher 579 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 10: up the food chain than I called me up or 580 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 10: asked me to come and see them, and they said, 581 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 10: I want you to know that I thought this warscare 582 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 10: thing was a bunch of nonsense for a long time, 583 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 10: and then I read your monograph and I decided I've 584 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 10: changed my mind. I think it was a serious matter 585 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 10: and it deserves more attention than it has received. 586 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: The CIA published Ben's work in nineteen ninety eight. They 587 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 1: held a conference invited academics and intelligence officials. The story 588 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: of the Able Archer war scare left the obscurity of 589 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: classified government archives. Now it was. 590 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 10: Public, and a lot of people then decided to take 591 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 10: a second look at the issue. And so I think 592 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 10: that I take credit for encouraging other people to go 593 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 10: beyond where I was able to go. 594 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: By the early two thousands, the Able Archer myth had 595 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: gone through a transformation of sorts a glow up, as 596 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: the kids say. Between whispers about the PIFYABS findings and 597 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: Ben Fisher's work, the propaganda theory receded into the background. 598 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: The intelligence community had come around. Many officials in the 599 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 1: US government now believed that able Archer was a truly 600 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: dangerous near miss. Plus, any CIA folks who had been 601 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: in power during Abel Archer had long since retired or 602 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: passed away. Basically, by the two thousands, nobody was trying 603 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: to diminish the importance of Able Archer. Not anymore. But 604 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: the thing about mysteries is that they have a tendency 605 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: to linger unless there's one hundred percent in controvertible, undeniable proof. 606 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: Some needling sleuth with a taste for CIA intrigue is 607 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: sure to come along and start asking questions again. Yep, 608 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: I'm talking about my main man, Nate Jones, or, as 609 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: I like to call him, Freedom of Information Act Guy. 610 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 9: The government's telling me, no, you can have the documents, 611 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 9: and I want the documents. 612 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,919 Speaker 1: Does that sound like the kind of guy who's gonna 613 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: let the piffy ab the holy Grail of able Archer 614 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: reportage sit untouched in a dusty Manila folder. Somewhere forever, 615 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: of course, not so. 616 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 9: This one was a slobber knocker, just a big, long, 617 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:38,959 Speaker 9: nasty fight. 618 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: Nate knew the piffy AB could contain information that wasn't 619 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: found in Fisher's reports or the SNIE, information that may 620 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: lay the mystery of able Archer to rest once and 621 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: for all. He had to get it. It wouldn't take 622 00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: long for the Pifyab report to become Nate Jones white Whale. 623 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 9: I filed a foyer for that pretty quickly. It went nowhere, weighted, weighted, weighted. 624 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,760 Speaker 9: That filed my other foyas, and eventually I started bugging 625 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 9: them and calling them and saying what is going on? 626 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 9: And they kind of politely but kind of not said no, listen, 627 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 9: we're not doing one review. It has to be reviewed 628 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 9: by essentially six seven eight agencies. 629 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: Something to understand about the Pipeab report. It was special 630 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: because it was comprehensive. It used reports and sources from 631 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: more than a half a dozen agencies, and that, of 632 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: course made it nearly impossible to declassify. 633 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 9: There's diplomatic sources, there's satellite sources, there's Stigan sources, there's 634 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,479 Speaker 9: CIA sources. It's hard enough to get for example, one 635 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 9: five page document with only CIA equities reviewed. 636 00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: That's years, so you. 637 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 9: Can imagine one hundred document with equities of seven agencies. 638 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: It's not that the pitheapp wouldn't get declassified, it's just 639 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: that it might take so long that by the time 640 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: it was declassified, Nate would very likely be dead. 641 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 9: So we were in big trouble. 642 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: But Nate wasn't the only one interested in the mythical 643 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: and mysterious events of Able Archer. Other historians were probing too, 644 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: But instead of trying to crack open the US government's files, 645 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: they were looking east. 646 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 11: I was excited to try to find, you know, even 647 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 11: more of the picture on how we all almost perished. 648 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: And I am extremely excited to tell you what they found. 649 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 11: I got my hands on a exercise report on the 650 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 11: entire Autumn Forge series of exercises. 651 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I mean this is it. 652 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 11: This is you know, this is the document. Let's see 653 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 11: how close we all got to blowing ourselves up. 654 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: That's next time on Snaffo. While Nate tries to get 655 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: his pause on the Piffy App, We're gonna head over 656 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: to the Soviet block with some historical sleuthing that raises 657 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: some critical questions about those spies, oh Leg Gordievski and 658 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: Ryn are Rupp, who saved the day during Able Archer. 659 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 5: I won't say he's intentionally aligned. 660 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: He might just be mistaken, or you might remember it 661 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: a certain way. Snafu is a production of iHeartRadio, Film, 662 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with 663 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: Gilded Audio. Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. 664 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: Our producer is Carl Nellis. Associate producer Tory Smith. It's 665 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,240 Speaker 1: executive produced by me Ed Helms, Nolan Papelka, Mike Falbo, 666 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: Andy Chug, and Whitney Donaldson. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. 667 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 5: That's Fucking true story. 668 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Sarah Joyner, with additional writing 669 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: from me Elliott Kalen and Whitney Donaldson. Olivia Kenny is 670 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Additional 671 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: research in fact Check by Charles Richter, Engineering and technical 672 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: direction by Nick Dooley. Original music and sound design by 673 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: Dan Rosatto. Additional editing from Ben Chug. Special thanks to 674 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: Alison Cohen and Matt Aisenstad.