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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grief. Ever since Brian Coburger was

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Speaker 1: arrested in the quadruple sleigh of four incredible Beautiful University

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Speaker 1: Idaho students, he's been causing one drama after the next.

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Speaker 1: Right now we are learning, believe it or not, that

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Speaker 1: the Idaho murder suspect Brian Coburger has developed admirers who

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Speaker 1: are in love with him, who lavish praise upon him,

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Speaker 1: and who question his guilt. Also, a group has emerged

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Speaker 1: called Justice for Brian, Justice for Brian Coburger. These Coburger

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Speaker 1: sympathizers praise his looks, they think he's handsome, and they

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Speaker 1: create pictures of him for online and they edit on

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Speaker 1: hearts onto him in his jail jumpsuit. Sydney, I better

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Speaker 1: not find out that you're one of them with me.

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Speaker 1: High profile lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction and also

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Speaker 1: a former FBI agent, Dale Carson is joining us from

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Speaker 1: del Carson Law dot com. What about this Idaho murder suspect?

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger has a very active following amongst sympathetic social

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Speaker 1: media enthusiasts that actually put hearts and it hearts onto

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Speaker 1: his jumpsuit. Help me deal. I really find that rather appalling.

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Speaker 1: But I look back to the Charles Manson behavior where

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Speaker 1: he had a cult of women that followed him around

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Speaker 1: before the killings and then afterwards received love letters just

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Speaker 1: constantly for all these years. And if I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 1: he got married before he passed away, So then you

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Speaker 1: have Ted Bundy. And Bundy was certainly that, and he

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Speaker 1: used that rather male attractiveness to target. He used his

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Speaker 1: male attractiveness. I didn't think Bundy was attractive. He looks

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Speaker 1: like Satan. He looks exactly like Satan straight from hell.

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Speaker 1: Of course you and I would not necessarily be attracted

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Speaker 1: by that. But of course many young women attempted to

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Speaker 1: help him when he faked a cast injury and those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things which led to their ultimate deaths. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it did. It led to their murders a fast. You

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Speaker 1: know what's interesting, Well, there's so much interesting about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to circle back to these largely women that

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Speaker 1: are editing photos of Coburger and placing them online with

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Speaker 1: hearts attached to his prison jumpsuit. And that should really

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Speaker 1: be a red bell of alarm in your brain when

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Speaker 1: you find yourself attaching editing hearts onto someone's prison jumpsuit.

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Speaker 1: Ding ding ding ding ding ding got the wrong guy.

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Speaker 1: And I know you're not a shrinkedale, but I know this.

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Speaker 1: You've defended a lot of cases. And how many times

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Speaker 1: has a young woman or a woman been that it's

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Speaker 1: old enough to know better, been led down the garden

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Speaker 1: path by a guy who's just absolutely no good? You

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Speaker 1: know what? This is another reason for you, Sydney. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why women go after the bad choices, you

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Speaker 1: know what. I think they get so addicted to the

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Speaker 1: drama of the bad choice that when they find a good,

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Speaker 1: decent guy, he's boring to them. Let me tell you,

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Speaker 1: good and decent is not boring. In addition to all

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Speaker 1: of these lovelorn women that are editing hearts onto his

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Speaker 1: prison jumpsuit is there are about three thousand members of

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Speaker 1: Justice for Brian Coburger on Facebook that was created not

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Speaker 1: too many days after his arrest. There is a Brian

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Speaker 1: Nation Brian Nation b r y b R y A

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Speaker 1: N A t I O N on Reddit with a

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Speaker 1: thread titled what was it about Brian that got your liking? Answer? Nothing,

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Speaker 1: But apparently some people have a different answer, And there

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Speaker 1: is our slash Brian Coburger. That's another thread. It has

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Speaker 1: another thread title why Brian Coburger is not guilty, And

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Speaker 1: they are getting hundreds and hundreds of comments. People are

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Speaker 1: actually reading this, Del carn, Well, what a way to

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Speaker 1: get What a way to get commentary on your own existence. Right,

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Speaker 1: you demonstrate that you're unusual and that you have a

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Speaker 1: propensity to love people who shouldn't be loved, And of

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Speaker 1: course you're creating an environment for yourself where people will

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Speaker 1: pay attention to people who otherwise wouldn't have any attention

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Speaker 1: placed on them at all. So I think it's a

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Speaker 1: mechanism of attention gathering. There is a Facebook user who says, quote,

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Speaker 1: she's a single mile from Kentucky, She's written dozens and

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Speaker 1: dozens of love letters, and she describes Brian Coberger as

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Speaker 1: her quote divine, masculine end quote. I don't understand the attraction,

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Speaker 1: of course, at the same time he is charged by

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Speaker 1: the state of quadruple murder. There are tells from women

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Speaker 1: that have met him face to face. If I've talked

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Speaker 1: about that, Del Carson number one, the women at bars

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Speaker 1: that he goes up to and goes, hey, what's your address?

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Speaker 1: I would run for the hills if someone said that.

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Speaker 1: And then of course those poor students that worked under

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Speaker 1: him when he was there ta and he has been

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Speaker 1: accused of misogyny, hatred of women, of treating the female

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Speaker 1: students differently, being much more harsh, greater upon event on

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Speaker 1: them and their work. So I'm very intrigued by these

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Speaker 1: women that have a huge crush on Brian Coburger. And

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Speaker 1: they're not just saying hey, I've got a crush, They're saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: he's not guilty. I certainly hope someone like that doesn't

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Speaker 1: end up on his jury. Well, And of course that's

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Speaker 1: the whole point of vodire, is to challenge jurors to

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Speaker 1: make sure they don't have an unfair biased when the

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Speaker 1: state prosecutes the case. But the evidence against Goburger is

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Speaker 1: significant and substantial. The only thing we don't have from

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Speaker 1: him is a confession. You know. One of these groups,

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Speaker 1: Justice for Brian Kayberger, has created a lot of outrage

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Speaker 1: on social media, and there is a quote on there

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Speaker 1: from Ronald Jones, who was the guy who was wrongly

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Speaker 1: convicted of murder and was given a death sentence, and

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Speaker 1: he says, it's about whether or not you can prove

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Speaker 1: your innocent, he says, now it is guilty until proven innocent.

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Speaker 1: That is absolutely not true. I mean, look at Robert

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Speaker 1: Blake who walked, look at Michael Jackson who walked, look

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Speaker 1: at O. J. Simpson who walked, look at top Mom,

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Speaker 1: Casey Anthony who walked. Clearly all of them were guilty,

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Speaker 1: no question, and they all were acquitted. So it is

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Speaker 1: not guilty until proven innocent. I'd like to hear your

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Speaker 1: thoughts on that, well. I agree with you. I think

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Speaker 1: that the whole point of the defense bar is to

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Speaker 1: challenge the government to make certain that when it does

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Speaker 1: convict an individual, that they truly should be convicted, and

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Speaker 1: I think that plays out in this country. I agree

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Speaker 1: with people who say that it's innocent until proven guilty,

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Speaker 1: but it's hard to push that narrative in the face

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Speaker 1: of social media because they want it to be something different.

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Speaker 1: They want to tear down our existing structures. They want

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Speaker 1: to sort of recalibrate everything we hold as tradition and value,

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Speaker 1: and that has an effect on the criminal justice system,

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Speaker 1: and it certainly presents itself in awkward ways on social media.

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Speaker 1: Because these people are basically anonymous, they can say whatever

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Speaker 1: they want, and they're thrusting their finger into the eye

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Speaker 1: of tradition, and they seem to do that in a

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Speaker 1: certain number of people. A percentage of people do that

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Speaker 1: as routine behavior, and those people are dangerous to all

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Speaker 1: of us. Also, although he will most likely exercise his

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Speaker 1: feth Amendment right to remain silent, he has indicated through

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Speaker 1: others that he has quote eager to be exonerated. That

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Speaker 1: reminds me of when oj Simpson stood up and when

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Speaker 1: the judge asked him to enter his plea, he said

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Speaker 1: one not guilty. I mean, he's very convincing to those

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Speaker 1: that had not examined the facts that he was eager

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Speaker 1: to be exonerated, as Koburger is saying he was one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent not guilty. He had a lot of bravado

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Speaker 1: to his response, what do you make of Kyburger? Well,

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Speaker 1: you're getting it out. They were eager to be exonerated.

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Speaker 1: Your quote is accurate. That is promoted by people who

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Speaker 1: don't know the facts because they don't want to hear

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Speaker 1: the facts. They want to be contrarians. And of course,

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Speaker 1: that fortunately is not what prevails in the criminal justice

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Speaker 1: system in the United States generally. Now any system makes mistakes,

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Speaker 1: but you can't always be judged by your mistakes. This

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Speaker 1: is the strongest crimin justice system where the defendant does

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Speaker 1: have opportunity to challenge the government's interest in a public trial,

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Speaker 1: where their potential crime can be examined by a group

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Speaker 1: of peers who will determine whether or not the state

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Speaker 1: meets its burden. Where else in the world do we

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Speaker 1: have that sort of exacting criminal justice system. I'm not

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Speaker 1: Maybe England, maybe a few other countries, but overall, very

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Speaker 1: very few time stories with Nancy Grace. Let me throw

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Speaker 1: another theory at you, the myth of the psychopath. You know,

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Speaker 1: there is, you know, a mental disorder. It doesn't arise

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Speaker 1: to insanity called psychopathy being a psychopath, because we hear

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Speaker 1: people refer to Brian Coburger as well, he's a psychopath,

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Speaker 1: as if that's somehow excuses everything he has done. For instance,

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Speaker 1: you always read about these Hollywood stars that are cheating

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Speaker 1: on their wives and they go, oh, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: a sex addic, I'm going to go to rehab bs

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Speaker 1: that that is not an excuse that I don't believe that.

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Speaker 1: I think that there may be a problem within you

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Speaker 1: that you seek out meaningless sex or sex without any

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Speaker 1: emotional attachment. But that is not an excuse for what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. It's not a diffense for what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Like voluntary consumption of alcohol or drugs is typically not

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Speaker 1: a defense under the law or else everybody in the

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Speaker 1: Folder County jail would walk free right now. They go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I was drunk, not guilty. So just claiming as if

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Speaker 1: it's some type of an explanation Coburger's a psychopath. I'm

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Speaker 1: not buying into that. Del Carson. Well, I think the

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Speaker 1: idea that people are somehow by the DSM, the diagnostic

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Speaker 1: statistic manuals that these psychiatrists use to determine whether or

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Speaker 1: not someone has an illness which causes them to do

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Speaker 1: these things, really is not something that should be used

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Speaker 1: to validate whether they know the difference from right and wrong,

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Speaker 1: which is the standard, And so it's not it's beyond

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Speaker 1: belief that Coburger didn't know when he was allegedly stabbing

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Speaker 1: these young women entering a house in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night and taking their lives, that he didn't know

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Speaker 1: that that's not something that a human being is supposed

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Speaker 1: to do to another human being. So from my perspective,

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Speaker 1: whatever they consider him, the psychiatrist consider him, doesn't eliminate

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Speaker 1: the need for us to understand that that individual knew

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Speaker 1: the difference between right and wrong, and knows the difference

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Speaker 1: between right and wrong, and he should be held responsible

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Speaker 1: for his own conduct as we all should be. You

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Speaker 1: know why I believe people come up with theories about

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Speaker 1: why someone committed a crime. I think it's because we

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Speaker 1: want very much to understand. We want to apply logic

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Speaker 1: to an illogical situation. About five years in I was

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Speaker 1: sitting in court one day. Jerry was in there Dale.

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Speaker 1: I looked him at the defendant, I thought, why did

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Speaker 1: he do this? I thought, wait a minute, why am

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Speaker 1: I wondering why? It's complete waste of time because I'll

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Speaker 1: never know why he committed a murder. That's what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to do, a co Burgner. We're saying, oh, he's

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Speaker 1: a psychopath, that's why he did it. Well, don't you

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Speaker 1: think we want to know that so that we can

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Speaker 1: look at people and say that person's dangerous, that person's

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Speaker 1: not dangerous, even though we know we can't do that, Okay,

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Speaker 1: say that, Well, I think that we want to be

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Speaker 1: able to look at people and identify them as dangerous

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Speaker 1: because that's important to our survival. But I don't think

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Speaker 1: we can really do that. And I do know that

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Speaker 1: women have a better mechanism for detecting bulls and danger

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Speaker 1: than men do. Typically, you will have a sense for

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Speaker 1: it which protects you in interesting ways that men simply

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Speaker 1: don't have. I mean, our aggression comes out directly and

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Speaker 1: physical activity or shouting and things of that nature, whereas

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Speaker 1: women are much better at determining with someone's dangerous and

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Speaker 1: avoiding that danger instead of engaging it with a male

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Speaker 1: pride that they fortunately don't have. I think people try

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Speaker 1: to make sense of what they say, Like I remember

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Speaker 1: watching Scott Peterson come in the courtroom all jacked up,

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Speaker 1: you know, like a football player, or as we like

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Speaker 1: to say, boat up. And I looked Adam Dale and

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Speaker 1: he not to me, but some people thought he was

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Speaker 1: physically attractive, he could be charming. Some people, not me,

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Speaker 1: thought he had a great smile. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: a devilish smile. He had a couge degree, he was

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Speaker 1: a great golfer, He had a beautiful wife, first child,

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Speaker 1: on the way lovely home. I remember looking through the

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Speaker 1: window into their home on Covina and Lacy. Peterson had

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Speaker 1: it just decorated. It looked like a dollhouse, so beautifully

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Speaker 1: done on the inside. He had it all right. His

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Speaker 1: family worshiped him, loved him, He could do no wrong,

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Speaker 1: So why would he do this thing? I think that's

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Speaker 1: part of the reason that so many people believed Peterson

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Speaker 1: was not guilty, because it just didn't make sense. It

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Speaker 1: was like the eye was checking the mind. And here

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Speaker 1: I think people are trying to basically medicalize hate and

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Speaker 1: evil and mentorea and malice and premeditation because it's hard

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Speaker 1: for people to accept Coburger could do this to these

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Speaker 1: three beautiful girls in this wonderful, handsome young man ethan shape,

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Speaker 1: and it's very hard with no real motive to take it,

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Speaker 1: why he would do that? So we try to rationalize it,

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Speaker 1: We try to medicalize it. Oh, he's a psychopaths, you know. View.

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Speaker 1: My view, though, and see is that he did have

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Speaker 1: a ship with those women, and it was not a

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Speaker 1: relationship that was based in reality. It was a vicarious

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Speaker 1: relationship that was garnered through looking into the windows late

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Speaker 1: at night, in watching these people enjoy life in a

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Speaker 1: manner that he could knocked and that's what precipitated his anger.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm convinced that when he got fired, that

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Speaker 1: that was the trigger point that led him to just

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Speaker 1: blow out because he's angry, and the only way to

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Speaker 1: satisfy that anger is what I mentioned earlier is aggression.

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Speaker 1: And he has a deep well of that aggression in

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Speaker 1: him that causes him to act out in that way.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean he should be designated as a

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Speaker 1: psychopath and somehow forgiven. It doesn't mean that at all.

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Speaker 1: What it means is we need to learn from this

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Speaker 1: horror and somehow metabolize it in a way that we

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Speaker 1: can prevent the people we love from being injured by

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Speaker 1: this sort of behavior in this animal and the sick

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Speaker 1: nature contell you something, del Carson Brian Coberger makes my

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Speaker 1: head hurt. I think it's because there is no reason why.

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Speaker 1: And I can try to fit it together and put

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Speaker 1: the puzzle pieces together and analyze his phone data and

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Speaker 1: is this and is that the bottom line is based

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Speaker 1: on what we know right now, he did it. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if he's a psychopath. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if he is criminally insane. I don't think so. And

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Speaker 1: that's what's giving me a headache to think that a

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Speaker 1: seemingly normal person could do this, this horrible thing. Wayne

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Speaker 1: Williams was the same. I mean, we never did. Wayne

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Speaker 1: Williams was a raid, a hole that had been spoiled

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Speaker 1: rotten by his parents from day one, and they facilitated

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Speaker 1: what he did. He wasn't nowhere near normal, and of

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Speaker 1: course he wasn't somebody that you'd pick out of the

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Speaker 1: lineup and say that's a bad guy and we need

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Speaker 1: to put him in custody. That's the problem, Sydney. He did.

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Speaker 1: When I talked to him, which I was the only

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Speaker 1: agent in the federal side that ever spoke with Wayne,

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Speaker 1: I looked into his first name, like, he's your buddy.

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Speaker 1: You're not launched about that Williams. One could not see

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Speaker 1: the evil in him, I'll just tell you, which always

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Speaker 1: kind of stunned me, because we knew he was responsible

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Speaker 1: for many, many deaths, and the violence that was committed

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Speaker 1: against them was not anything that was sexual in nature,

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Speaker 1: which was another bizarre aspect of that particular case. I

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Speaker 1: just I hope that no one on Coburger's jury is

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Speaker 1: tricked into believing he has some sort of mental excuse

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Speaker 1: for what he did because it's very hard for many

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Speaker 1: people to accept some people are just evil, or let

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Speaker 1: me rephrase, some people do evil things for really no reason.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard to take that in but we wait

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Speaker 1: as justice unfolds. Del Carson high profile lawyer Jacksonville, del

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Speaker 1: Carson law dot com. Thank you, buddy,