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Speaker 1: So here we are, my friends. At the end of

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Speaker 1: the year, a new year is upon us. But before

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Speaker 1: we exit out of twenty four, I'd like to first off,

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Speaker 1: thank you for listening to Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: But in addition to that, I'd also like us to reflect.

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Speaker 1: That's why over the next three days we are going

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Speaker 1: to have a countdown of the top ten most downloaded

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Speaker 1: episodes of Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I hope

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Speaker 1: that you will please join us over the next few

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Speaker 1: days as we look back over this past year, digging

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Speaker 1: in to some of the most intriguing cases that we

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Speaker 1: have covered. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body

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Speaker 1: Backs Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: One of my favorite things to do, particularly when I'm

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Speaker 2: back home down in New Orleans and my family down

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Speaker 2: the are is if I ever have an opportunity, I

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Speaker 2: love to go visit old homes, particularly those that are

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Speaker 2: opened during the holiday season. You really get to appreciate

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Speaker 2: the beauty of them because the homes down there are

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Speaker 2: so very old, and you can tell that people love

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Speaker 2: them at one point in time or loved the idea

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Speaker 2: of them. They dumped a lot of money into them,

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Speaker 2: maybe one hundred and fifty, maybe one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 2: five years ago. It comes through, it kind of echoes

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Speaker 2: down through time and you can see where people lived

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Speaker 2: a life, and I think that that's it's quite remarkable,

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Speaker 2: it really is. It's not like something that was thrown

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Speaker 2: up recently, you know, and has no I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I guess the word is patina hunted. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a dwelling that people existed in. But today, I gotta say,

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Speaker 2: there is a homicide that has occurred inarguably one of

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Speaker 2: the wealthiest areas in the metro Detroit City area up there,

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Speaker 2: and it involves an old house, a house that was renown,

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Speaker 2: a house that was loved, and a house that was

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Speaker 2: known for hospitality. And you know, I think truly that's

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Speaker 2: one of the great things that truly makes a home

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Speaker 2: an inviting place. We're going to talk today about the

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Speaker 2: homicide of doctor DeVaughn Hoover. I'm Josephcott Morgan and this

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Speaker 2: is body Bags Dave. I started reading this story about

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Speaker 2: doctor Hoover up in Detroit, and we hear a lot

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Speaker 2: about Detroit and how dangerous it is and for a

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Speaker 2: long time. Feel I feel sorry because Detroit is one

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Speaker 2: of the grand cities of America. It was for a

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Speaker 2: long time, and there was a lot of wealth up

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Speaker 2: there for a long time, and you can still see

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Speaker 2: remnants of that if you ever visit visit Detroit, you

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Speaker 2: go out by the lake and you see some of

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Speaker 2: these mansions that people in dwelled all those years ago,

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Speaker 2: that had just wealth that many of us cannot even

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Speaker 2: begin to imagine. And I think that that's what we're

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Speaker 2: dealing with here, we're talking about I don't know if

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Speaker 2: the term palatial is appropriate here, but it's certainly striking.

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Speaker 2: This home is it's up there. As my granny used

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Speaker 2: to say, I wouldn't want to have to push a

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Speaker 2: vacuum cleaner through it.

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Speaker 3: Oil Boy, nine bedrooms, twelve thousand square feet. Beautiful home,

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Speaker 3: but it is not a new mansion that was thrown

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Speaker 3: up in the last six months. Doctor Devon Hoover is

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Speaker 3: one of these men that people have nothing bad to say.

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Speaker 2: Nothing.

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Speaker 3: You can find something negative about anybody, but when it

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Speaker 3: comes to doctor Devon Hoover, he was loved by his patients,

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Speaker 3: he was loved by his neighbors. One of his neighbors

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Speaker 3: said that when he first bought the house, that it

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Speaker 3: was doctor Hoover who came over and introduced himself and said, now,

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Speaker 3: if you haven't owned an older, big home before, there

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Speaker 3: are some things you need to know. And he said

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Speaker 3: that they became friends because he hadn't owned a home

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Speaker 3: like that, and they do require a lot more attention

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Speaker 3: than you're used to doing around a home. The payoff,

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Speaker 3: of course, as you mentioned palatial, that was actually how

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Speaker 3: the home was referred to, and doctor Hoover opened it

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Speaker 3: up to the community to raise money for all types

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Speaker 3: of charities and things that needed attention. He opened his

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Speaker 3: doors and said do it here, it's my place. And

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Speaker 3: doctor Hoover, he's a neurosurgeon, which Joe, just give me

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Speaker 3: the run of the mill explanation of what is a newgent.

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Speaker 2: The way I look at specialties in medicine, and one

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Speaker 2: of the ways that many people that either work in

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Speaker 2: medicine or work around the periphery of medicine, when you

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Speaker 2: hear what the occupation is of any particular physician, you

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Speaker 2: want to know what they're specially is, so you know,

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Speaker 2: you can have like internal medicine people, you can have

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Speaker 2: mergency room doctors. You can have psychiatrists, you can have

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Speaker 2: orthopedic specialists. But when it comes to neurosurgery, if you're

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Speaker 2: measuring it by the length of time that it takes

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Speaker 2: to make it through your postdoctoral training, your residency in medicine,

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Speaker 2: it's probably, to say the very least, the most robust.

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Speaker 2: So just imagine it this way. You've probably done four

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Speaker 2: years as an undergraduate, and you've got a bachelor's degree

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Speaker 2: in more than likely pre med or biology or chemistry

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Speaker 2: or biochem or some science. Then you go to medical school.

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Speaker 2: Well that's going to take you four years, right well,

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Speaker 2: depended upon the program at minimum. When you're talking about neurosurgery,

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Speaker 2: now this is after you've completed your four years in

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Speaker 2: medical school, you're staring down the barrel of at least

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Speaker 2: at minimum six years. Just wrap your brain around that

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Speaker 2: for a second. You're talking about six plus years. And

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Speaker 2: some do subspecialties once they are complete with an actual

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Speaker 2: neurosurgery residency. And there are some people that will do

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Speaker 2: let me see how kind of break it down, they'll

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Speaker 2: do like a general surgery residency, which is a few

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Speaker 2: years in and of itself. It's rather robust itself, and

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Speaker 2: then they'll go into neurosurgery. There are some people that

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Speaker 2: will do neurosurgery, and there are certain people that are

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Speaker 2: also neurologists, which is different as well. They treat people

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Speaker 2: externally for head trauma and spinal trauma and those sorts

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Speaker 2: of things, kind of measuring if you've ever had concussion

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Speaker 2: or something like that, and the doctor comes in and

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Speaker 2: they're checking your neuro responses and they'll stay here, squeeze fingers,

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Speaker 2: how many fingers am I holding up? And they'll do

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Speaker 2: all these measurements, and they'll do imaging and all that

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Speaker 2: sort of thing. Well, doctor Hoover, he would have had

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Speaker 2: to do all of that. Plus he's actually the guy

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Speaker 2: that goes in and operates on the brain, and in

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Speaker 2: his particular case, he specialized in the neck and in

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Speaker 2: the spine, and so that's his area. So if you

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Speaker 2: had any kind of spinal trauma or neck trauma, which

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Speaker 2: spine neck essentially the same thing where you have the

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Speaker 2: brain stem that comes out of the backside of the brain,

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Speaker 2: all right, and then it turns literally turns into the

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Speaker 2: spinal cord that stends down through the cervical vertebra and

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Speaker 2: then through the thoracic vertebra, the lumbar, and so it

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Speaker 2: controls It's kind of like the neuro pathway. It's the

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Speaker 2: big highway that controls all of the little nerve endings

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Speaker 2: that extend out through the body. So at any of

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Speaker 2: those levels, you've see people that are, say paraplegics or quadriplegics,

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Speaker 2: depended upon where those injuries have taken place on the

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Speaker 2: spine dictates how their body is going to be compromised.

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Speaker 2: So he would go in and these people are fascinating

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Speaker 2: to me, and they're having to do like microsurgery on

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Speaker 2: these very, very delicate tissues. That's how skilled this guy was.

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Speaker 3: All I can think of is when Judge Smells looks

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Speaker 3: at Danny and Caddyshack and says, well, the world needs

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Speaker 3: ditch diggers too. Boy, that's where I am. If I

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Speaker 3: was faced with those choices, Joe, I would be on

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Speaker 3: the ditch digger side. But I don't even understand two

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Speaker 3: thirds of what you just said.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with ditchdiggers man, And as Judge Smail says,

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Speaker 2: the world needs them. But the thing about doctor Hoover,

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Speaker 2: the fact that he did this, he was essentially married

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Speaker 2: to his work, and you'll find many people that are

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Speaker 2: like this, that operate at that high level. There's no

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Speaker 2: way I could do it. I don't have the intellectual capability.

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Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes this is what's amazing about him.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's the case with every neurosurgeon. Don't

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Speaker 2: get me wrong, don't misquote me. Many times they're so

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Speaker 2: very intense. Have you ever met somebody that's so very

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Speaker 2: intellectually intense that it almost seems like they'll brush you off,

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Speaker 2: or they don't have time for you, or maybe they

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Speaker 2: don't have a good bedside manner if they're a physician.

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Speaker 2: That's not Devon Hoover. He had a way about him

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Speaker 2: that his patience. These people that he treated genuinely liked

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Speaker 2: this guy. And by extension, he's got this beautiful home

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Speaker 2: that he's probably dumped. You can only imagine how much money,

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Speaker 2: because it's not just once you have an old home,

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Speaker 2: just to upkeep alone, and can you imagine on twelve

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Speaker 2: thousand square feet just to upkeep along is a real burden.

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Speaker 2: But he's inviting people to his home. He was regarded

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Speaker 2: as kind of a warm, hospitable person, and the horror

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Speaker 2: of this case is the fact that the house is

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Speaker 2: the side of this a place that probably brought a

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Speaker 2: lot of joy. I can only imagine just looking at

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Speaker 2: this place externally, how beautiful this thing would have been decorated,

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Speaker 2: probably at Christmas time. I'm sure it was striking. It

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Speaker 2: was probably if they have a tour of homes, it

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Speaker 2: was probably on the tour of homes warm and inviting.

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Speaker 2: And it's something so horrible could happen to this man

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Speaker 2: that was so beloved and so skilled at what he did.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just hospitality and his outreach to the community.

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Speaker 2: It's the fact that Dave he could go in and

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Speaker 2: he could actually aid in the repair and recovery of

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Speaker 2: people that had sustained catastrophic injuries. Every article that I

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Speaker 2: have read about doctor Hoover's homicide has included the word,

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Speaker 2: and it's a compound word, crawl space. That word sends

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Speaker 2: a chill up my spine every time I hear it,

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Speaker 2: because I got to tell you, the first thing I

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Speaker 2: think about when I hear crawl space is John Wayne Gacy.

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Speaker 2: I always think about the bodies that were buried beneath

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Speaker 2: his house in the crawl space when he victimized all

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Speaker 2: those young men for so many years. But that's not

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Speaker 2: the case. In doctor Hoover's homicide, He's actually found Dave

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Speaker 2: in a unique location, in this beautiful home. He's found

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Speaker 2: in the attic crawl space.

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Speaker 3: This is a man who lives alone.

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Speaker 1: Fifty three year old.

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Speaker 3: He is single. He's a single minded kind of fella.

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Speaker 3: He was born in Indiana. He was the fourth child

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Speaker 3: of seven, and he was the only boy in his family.

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Speaker 3: Before he went to college, he worked on a dairy farm.

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Speaker 3: The guy that became one of the best of the

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Speaker 3: best neurosurgeon. His family and friends were a priority in

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Speaker 3: his life. There was a quote from his obituary. He

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Speaker 3: rarely missed a Hoover family event and made the drive

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Speaker 3: to Indiana frequently to visit his parents and sisters, often

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Speaker 3: playing with his many nieces and nephews. He spent quality

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Speaker 3: time with many friends and enjoyed traveling with them to

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Speaker 3: unique places around the world. Now, when you put that

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Speaker 3: with what we talked about how his neighbors talked about him,

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Speaker 3: one neighbor actually said, for a man small in stature,

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Speaker 3: he was indeed larger than life. Yet he didn't show

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Speaker 3: up for a family event in Indiana as expected, and

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Speaker 3: because he was always in tune with his family. When

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Speaker 3: he didn't show up, the family called for the police

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Speaker 3: to go by. Police show up at this palatial home,

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Speaker 3: this twelve thousand square foot nine bedroom estate that was

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Speaker 3: a showplace, and they saw enough that led them to

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Speaker 3: find him. You mentioned cross space in the attic. How

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Speaker 3: does a fifty three year old man with no enemies

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Speaker 3: end up dead in the attic crawl space.

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Speaker 2: At the time of our taping here, we still don't

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Speaker 2: know who did this. Okay, they released a bit of

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Speaker 2: tantalizing information here, and I'm so glad you picked up

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Speaker 2: on this. They said that he was not just dragged

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Speaker 2: to this location where his body was finally found, David.

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Speaker 2: They said he was dragged face down, And you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: how can you actually arrive at that conclusion. That information

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Speaker 2: is actually coming from the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, is one of the most storied offices

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Speaker 2: in the history of forensic pathologists. This is actually the

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Speaker 2: place where doctor Werner Spitz did a lot of his work,

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Speaker 2: and doctor Spitz is one of the co authors of

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Speaker 2: what we regard as our bible in forensic science. Medical

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Speaker 2: legal investigation of death. And it was first published back

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty six. So the the place that did

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Speaker 2: his examination, that did the examination on doctor Hoover's remains

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Speaker 2: is a top location for assessment of trauma, okay, as

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Speaker 2: it applies to post mortem assessment. And what they're saying

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Speaker 2: is that he was found in this crawl space, but

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Speaker 2: he had been drug there face down. So when people

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Speaker 2: are saying drug face down, first off, what are we thinking, Well,

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Speaker 2: we're thinking that perhaps there was some kind of manifestation

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Speaker 2: on his body that would give an indication first off,

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Speaker 2: that he was drug Well, how do we conclude that, Well,

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Speaker 2: if blood is streaked in a particular way, Okay, perhaps

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Speaker 2: that's the case, Say that it's on one contact surface

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Speaker 2: and not on the other, and you have this kind

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Speaker 2: of strided appearance of say, for instance, blood that's been

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Speaker 2: left behind. And when I say strided, that literally means streaks, okay,

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Speaker 2: or kind of linear streaks. Another thing, was there any

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Speaker 2: kind of post mortem trauma to the body, Well, what

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Speaker 2: would that mean? Well, the body can be scraped in

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Speaker 2: a post mortem state. You can actually knock away the

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Speaker 2: top layer of skin that won't have the same kind

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Speaker 2: of abrasian appearance that we have during life, where it

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Speaker 2: becomes red and irritated. And we've all fallen at some

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Speaker 2: point in our time and skinned our knees or skinned

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Speaker 2: our elbows, and we know what an abrasion looks like.

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Speaker 2: And of course we know that the dead don't bruise,

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Speaker 2: but you can have markings on a body that would

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Speaker 2: give you an indication of some kind of what we

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Speaker 2: refer to as post mortem trauma. Now, a third way

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Speaker 2: that this could happen, and perhaps one of the most chilling,

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Speaker 2: is that we wonder well had post mortem changes begun

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Speaker 2: to take place to the point where there was a

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Speaker 2: reorientation of the body from where it had initially laid

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Speaker 2: to where it was finally found resting. And what I

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Speaker 2: mean by that, one of the things that we would

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Speaker 2: look for is deposition of post mortem lividity, in other words,

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Speaker 2: that settling of blood. Did you have, say, for instance,

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Speaker 2: a presentation where the blood had settled on the front

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Speaker 2: side of the body, Okay, what's referred to as the

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Speaker 2: anterior aspect, and maybe there was no presentation on the back,

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Speaker 2: but yet you've got post mortem trauma on the back

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Speaker 2: that gives you an indication that they were initially laying

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Speaker 2: in one position and then drug vis a v the

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Speaker 2: other side of the body. It could be flip flopped

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Speaker 2: either way. So we don't know a lot right now

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Speaker 2: at this point to kind of put a fine point

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Speaker 2: on that. But the reason that's so chilling is you

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Speaker 2: begin to think, well, whoever did this to him, and

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Speaker 2: what they did to him was quite shocking. Whoever did

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Speaker 2: this to him? Did they sit there with a body

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Speaker 2: while post mortem changes began to take place, and that

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Speaker 2: there was evidence regarding that on the examination of the

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Speaker 2: body at the scene. Was that measured in any way?

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Speaker 2: Because what's key here is kind of and I always

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Speaker 2: fall back to this as the post mortal interval, that

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Speaker 2: time that has elapsed since doctor Hoover unfortunately drew his

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Speaker 2: last breath, to the point in which he was moved,

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Speaker 2: and then beyond that to the point in which he

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Speaker 2: was discovered. How long had he actually been down? And

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Speaker 2: that's going to be key in this case. Who would

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Speaker 2: have access to him in this grand home in which

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Speaker 2: he dwells. Who would purpose to do this kind of

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Speaker 2: harm to this man that had done so much for

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Speaker 2: so many people over the years. Who was beloved, who

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Speaker 2: would traumatize him to this degree. We do know this,

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Speaker 2: whoever perpetrated this crime felt comfortable enough to take a

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Speaker 2: handgun and shoot doctor Hoover execution style in the head twice.

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Speaker 2: But when you see a big house, you ride by

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Speaker 2: it and you look at it, at least I do,

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Speaker 2: and I think, you know, what in the world goes

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Speaker 2: on in there? You think, what kind of history in dwells,

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Speaker 2: those walls, what has that structure born witness to over

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Speaker 2: the years. And when I think attic in a big

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Speaker 2: home like that, you always think of some kind of

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Speaker 2: scary movie or something where you've got mannequins, you know,

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Speaker 2: in dwelling the area, and old boxes and all that

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Speaker 2: sort of thing. But you know, I think that the

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Speaker 2: attic in this place was probably a storage location that

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Speaker 2: doctor Hoover would have gone into regularly. He's probably always

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Speaker 2: decorating his home. Certainly, you thinking around the holidays, he's

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Speaker 2: going to be inviting people over. Maybe kept his his

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Speaker 2: Christmas decorations or Easter decorations or those sorts of things

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Speaker 2: up in the attic so you'd have easy access to them.

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Speaker 3: Joe, let me back up for a second. Let me

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Speaker 3: get back to this. I'm curious as to how this happens,

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Speaker 3: and you're gonna have to fill in the blanks. All right,

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Speaker 3: We've got doctor Hoover, his family asks the police to

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Speaker 3: go by and do a welfare check. When they get there,

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Speaker 3: we don't know if there was anybody there when they

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Speaker 3: got there. We know the police said there was no

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Speaker 3: forced entry, and they believe that doctor Hoover knew who

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Speaker 3: did this to him. So staying with that, I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to picture what did the police see when they got

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Speaker 3: in there that led them to the attic, Because obviously

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Speaker 3: you mentioned the person that did this, they felt comfortable

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Speaker 3: enough in the home to shoot him dead in one

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Speaker 3: place and to drag his body you mentioned face down.

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Speaker 3: I mean, who does that if you care about somebody,

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Speaker 3: even if you have done this, All I could think

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Speaker 3: of is dragging this person upstairs with his head hitting

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Speaker 3: every stair along the way.

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Speaker 2: You know, you hear us talk a lot in in

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Speaker 2: forensics about track marks and those sorts of things. As

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Speaker 2: I had mentioned, or I had alluded to, doctor Hoover

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Speaker 2: sustained massive head trauma. He actually sustained two gunshot wounds

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Speaker 2: to the head.

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Speaker 3: One of those wasn't closed, and the other one was

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Speaker 3: how do they know that, Joe? How do they determine this.

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Speaker 2: The way this is determined? First off, if you look

333
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Speaker 2: at the one that they're referring to as an indeterminate distance,

334
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 2: which what that means is it's and dependent upon the

335
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 2: weapon that's used, you have to kind of qualify that

336
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Speaker 2: when you say that anything that's essentially about eighteen inches

337
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Speaker 2: away from the point of impact, you're not going to

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Speaker 2: have any kind of sid deposition or powder deposition around

339
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Speaker 2: the wound. You're certainly not going to have what's referred

340
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Speaker 2: to as like a gas injury, where you'll get kind

341
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Speaker 2: of a stell eight wound that you see with like

342
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Speaker 2: press contact stell eate like stellar Okay, that's where it

343
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 2: comes from. Star shape here, people say star shaped wound

344
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Speaker 2: because the skin kind of tears when happens. Well, you're

345
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,439
Speaker 2: not going to have that presentation. With indeterminate range, that

346
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Speaker 2: means that they will be shot from some distance and

347
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Speaker 2: you don't know you still don't know anything about sequencing.

348
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Speaker 2: Some people will say, well, they're shot at a distance

349
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Speaker 2: and then someone moves in and shoots them close. Well,

350
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Speaker 2: you don't know that you can have individuals that are

351
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Speaker 2: actually executed with a contact gunshot wound and then just

352
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Speaker 2: for the coup de gras, if you will, in this

353
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Speaker 2: person's mind, they're going to shoot them again, and this

354
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Speaker 2: is as they've moved away from the body. So you

355
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Speaker 2: can't there's no way you can go back and look

356
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Speaker 2: at this and say, well, this was actually the sequence

357
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Speaker 2: of events, unless you just have somebody that just pops

358
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Speaker 2: up and says, well, this is what happened. But no

359
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 2: evidence of that distant wound. But the other wound that

360
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 2: they talk about, there's actually a muzzling print that's left behind.

361
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: And what that means is that when the muzzle of

362
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 2: the weapon that means the end of the barrel actually

363
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: contacts the surface of the skin, you will get an impression,

364
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 2: and it's really pressive to see from a forensic standpoint.

365
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: You can actually see an impression of the structure of

366
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 2: the barrel underneath many times, and sometimes you'll actually see

367
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 2: a circular ring around the area as well. That will

368
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: lead you to conclude that this weapon was so close

369
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Speaker 2: that when it was discharged with such force, it actually

370
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Speaker 2: left an imprint on the skin of the end of

371
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Speaker 2: the weapon and it's almost like a negative image, you

372
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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying, like a photograph, And so that

373
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Speaker 2: gives you proximity, doesn't it in that particular case, And

374
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Speaker 2: it also gives you an indication of intimacy that this

375
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Speaker 2: individual whoever fired this weapon had the ability to get

376
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Speaker 2: that close to doctor Hoover when they discharge the weapon,

377
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,640
Speaker 2: and when you begin to think about things like intimacy.

378
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Speaker 2: Here's something that's that's quite interesting from an investigative standpoint.

379
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Speaker 2: When he's found, he's found unclosed. Now he's covered in

380
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 2: several layers blankets. I think there's a carpet carpet that's

381
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: involved that he was covered with. But when we are nude,

382
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 2: we are at our most vulnerable because you're not covered.

383
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: Your shame involved perhaps or they've made you take your

384
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Speaker 2: clothes off at gunpoint, and this is kind of a

385
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 2: dehumanization thing that takes place many times. So you've got

386
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 2: him in the state, and he's in the state when

387
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 2: he is found. And back to how they began to

388
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: understand what the point of origin is and that is

389
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: where the event may have taken place. There's no indication

390
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 2: of that, but they know that he was drug so

391
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: that tells us that there's evidence that there is perhaps

392
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: a blood trail leading to the attic. And one thing

393
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 2: that really resonates with me, David, correct me if I'm wrong.

394
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Speaker 2: Didn't you make reference to the fact that he was

395
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Speaker 2: diminutive in size. He's kind of a smaller guy.

396
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Speaker 3: A neighbor had said that for a man small in stature,

397
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 3: he was indeed larger than life. So that makes you

398
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 3: assume he was not a big man.

399
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, So why are you going to drag him unless

400
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 2: perhaps you've dehumanized him where you're going to treat him

401
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: like an animal that you shot, or that the person

402
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: that did this may not have the physical strength to

403
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 2: put their hands or put their arms beneath them and

404
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: cradle them, or maybe they just find this level of

405
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: trauma and gore because it would have been a significant

406
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: amount of gore. And when I say that, I mean

407
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 2: because anytime there's trauma to the head where you have blood,

408
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: and certainly many times you'll have brain matter that's actually

409
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 2: extruding through the head through the injuries, people might not

410
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 2: want to get that on themselves. So maybe that's the

411
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: reason you drug him up there. Here's the thing, whoever

412
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: put him in that location. They knew about that location,

413
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 2: They knew that that attic cross space existed. That's intimate knowledge.

414
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 3: And the fact that I want to go back to

415
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: the gunshots to the head because you made a couple

416
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: of statements there, and I'm curious because we do have

417
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: two shots, and according to the police report or the automsy,

418
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 3: he had abrasions on his face suggesting he was in

419
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: a prone position with the left side of his face

420
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 3: resting against some kind of surface when he was shot.

421
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: Could they determine, based on this and other factors, were

422
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: both of these shots potentially fatal? Or was one shot?

423
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 3: Could you determine that this shot wounded in but this

424
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: was the kill shot?

425
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, perhaps, anytime the head is involved and gunfire is involved,

426
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 2: you're going to have certainly the potential for fatal trauma.

427
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: It's the one area of the body where even a

428
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: glancing gunshot wound to the head can lead to a

429
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: fatal outcome. The trick is and kind of the measure

430
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: that forensic pathologists will look at this on balance. Most

431
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 2: of the time they'll say, well, what created the most

432
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: trauma in this particular case. They'll look at one injury

433
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: and they say, is this potentially a survivable injury? Say,

434
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: if it just clipped one area of the brain, if

435
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: he had gotten medical treatment, could he have survived this?

436
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: Whereas with the other one, maybe it passed through an

437
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: area that controls the autonomic nervous system. Okay, where you

438
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 2: just know that heartbeat is going to see, respiration is

439
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: going to cease. All is so traumatic, and not to

440
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: mention if there's a muzzle stamp on this one injury,

441
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: you're not just going to have dave the gunshot wound,

442
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: which is bad enough that you're dealing with that's going

443
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: to create this channel through the brain. You're also going

444
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: to be fighting against things like say, for instance, the

445
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: bone being blown apart in there and it creates additional

446
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: little satellite fragments. Are shrapnel bone trapnel actually is what

447
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: it turns out to be. And so it injures the

448
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 2: brain in that way. And also you have to factor

449
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: in if it's that close, you might have gas injuries.

450
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: So with the gas injuries, you have hot gas, and

451
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 2: we all know what hot gas does. It rapidly expands,

452
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 2: it goes into the cranial vault and you'll have this

453
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: massive fracturing that takes place in the skull. So you've

454
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 2: gotten multiple things that multiple layers here that are occurring

455
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: that any number of these scenes could get fatal in

456
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: and of himself.

457
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 3: Now we know that he was wrapped in a blank

458
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: you mentioned this, and the actual order they said that

459
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: he was wrapped in a sheet, then carpeting or then

460
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 3: a rug, and then carpeting was laid over the top

461
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: of his body in that cross space. So and we

462
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: know that he was shot and killed when he was

463
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 3: naked with one sock dark sock on his foot. You

464
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 3: mentioned being humiliated by being nude and being taken down

465
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: like this. Would there have been when the police are

466
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 3: on the scene trying to figure everything out, would they

467
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: be taking like clippings under his fingernails to see if

468
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 3: there was a little bit of a fight or anything.

469
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they would, And typically that's going to happen at

470
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: the more people will see us at scenes where we

471
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: bag the hands, and we've talked about that in previous episodes.

472
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 2: But our hands are those things through which we defend ourselves.

473
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: It's those things through which we just from a tactile

474
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: sense that we sense the world around us. I mean,

475
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: even the small children we're touching things. Okay, it's an

476
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: extension of our brain essentially, and we're touching things and

477
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 2: that information is coming in. So the hands are bagged

478
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: traditionally at the scene, and then when we get the

479
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 2: body into a controlled environment at the morgue, we'll do

480
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: nail scrapings. Okay, we'll do the nail scrapings. We'll catch

481
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: all of the debris that are under the fingernails, because

482
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: this is very intimate event. Remember he's nude. And then

483
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 2: we'll do nail clippings to look if anything is there

484
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: in the clippings themselves, and they will probably believe it

485
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: or not. They would probably do a gunshot residue test

486
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: on his hands. People might not think about that, but

487
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: we actually do to see if, for instance, if there

488
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: was any way let's say, say, for instance, the gunshot

489
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: wounds to the back of the head, which we think

490
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: that it approximates those two gunshot ones are essentially in

491
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: the rear word areas of the head. If he's got

492
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: his hands okay, behind his head and he shot in

493
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: the head, that can be a valuable piece of information

494
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: as to his posture, what his relationship was with the

495
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: individual that shot him, a fiscal relationship from the end

496
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: of the muzzle to his body, and you might have

497
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: soot deposition on the hands, so you'll do that. And

498
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: of course here's the most glaring thing many people don't

499
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: actually think about, Dave. I don't know if you've thought

500
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: about this, but even though he's a male, he's nude.

501
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: Guess what we're gonna do, actually do a rape kit.

502
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: We're gonna do rape kit on him. And some people

503
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: don't think that we do those on males, but we do,

504
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: We actually do.

505
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: It actually makes sense when you think about the fact

506
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: that he is naked and rolled up in a blanket.

507
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 3: If he was shot in the back of the head

508
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 3: due to a bad debt and left you, they wouldn't

509
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: take trouble to hide him orning else because obviously whoever

510
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: did this Joe did not take a lot of time

511
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: to clean up or anything else, because police were able

512
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: to go there on a welfare check and find his

513
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: body in the end, they were able to do that

514
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: in a welfare check, so obviously they didn't walk in

515
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: and go, hey, everything looks fine here and.

516
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: Turn around taking it on the heel. No, no, no,

517
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: they saw evidence of something had occurred in this environment,

518
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: and I'm sure it was quite horrific when these police

519
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: officers showed up and they're looking through the house or

520
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: doing a safety check. It's a welfare check. They can

521
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: you imagine if it's two of them. I have this

522
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 2: vision in my mind, this image in my mind of

523
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: one guy looking at the other guy and saying, Oh,

524
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: this doesn't look good. And then they followed the blood

525
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: trail and it leads into some small door up in

526
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: the attic area, and there they find his remains in there.

527
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 2: And here's a big piece. Remember what you said early on,

528
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: They said there was no signs of forced entry at

529
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: this place, So that gives you an indication that the

530
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 2: individual may have been there before, that they knew the doctor.

531
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: And also we go back to this idea of covering

532
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: up the body. Why do you want to cover the body?

533
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: What's your purpose for? Cause you just executed it. Man,

534
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: where are you going to go and not just covering

535
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: once you're going to layer him. It's almost like you're

536
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: tucking him in. Why are you going to put all

537
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: these layers on top of him? What's your purpose? You're

538
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: trying to hide him? Well, we know that you've taken

539
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: him to the cross space up there, But why go

540
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: to all of that trouble again? If his face was covered,

541
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 2: we can assume that it was. Many times, face covering

542
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: is associated with an intimate act because the individual does

543
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: not want to look the individual in the face that

544
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: they've just done this great harm to.

545
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: Oh, now that makes sense. I'm actually I was confused

546
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 3: about how a guy that is naked with one sock on,

547
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: shot twice in the head, then drug on his face

548
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: up to his what will be a temporary final resting place.

549
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: But then the perpetrator takes the time to roll him

550
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 3: up in three layers of blanket and carpet and then

551
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: placing him in this cross space so that he's covered

552
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: up after this humiliation and devastating act.

553
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I got to tell you, Dave, I have

554
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: real hope in this case that they're going to find

555
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: out who did this. I know that they have taken

556
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: somebody into custody, they had to release them, But they

557
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: have taken one person into custody and questioned them and

558
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: subsequently release them. What's this area like. Well, we've determined

559
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: that doctor Hoover's home is quite fine. It's quite palatial,

560
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: as we said when we started this conversation, I would

561
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: think that there would be security cameras around this area,

562
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: and I would think that if the police went around

563
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: and they were to collect footage. Now, a lot of

564
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: this is going to be depended upon the time of

565
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: day when it happened, they might be able to collect

566
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: an image. And of course, as we know in all

567
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: cases like this, that as you begin to work the case,

568
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: you extend outward, who are the intimates in his life?

569
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: Who has he had recent contact with, Who has he

570
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: had a beef with, who has he maybe been in

571
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: a relationship with, who would want to absolutely destroy this

572
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: fine man. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybacks

573
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: mm hmm