1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: Four thousand, six hundred eighty four. That's the number of 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: documents related to the JFK assassination that as of November 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, still remain fully kept from the public eye. 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: For those of us who want to know the truth 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: of who killed JFK, why after sixty years are documents 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 2: still being withheld. 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: In December of twenty twenty two, the CIA released a 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: statement that the withheld information quote consists of intelligence sources 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 1: and methods, the release of which would currently do identifiable 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: harm to intelligence operations. 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: The common refrain of protecting sources and methods gets harder 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 2: and harder to accept the further we get from nineteen 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: sixty three, with virtually all the people that were involved 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: no longer with us. Many of the documents that are 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: being withheld are from the CIA, which only increases suspicions 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: about their role. To discuss the JFK files, what might 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 2: be in them, why they're still being hidden, and what 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: we've learned from recent files that have been released, we 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: asked Jefferson Morley to join us again. If we want 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 2: to understand the story of these withheld documents, where do 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: we begin? 22 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 3: Okay, So, the JFK Records Act called for the disclosure 23 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 3: of all government related records, and as a result of it, 24 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 3: we got a huge body of records, mostly in the 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: nineteen nineties, and a steady stream ever since. The law 26 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 3: had a twenty five year sunset provision in it, which 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: said after twenty five years all the records should be 28 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 3: made public. 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: To make the timeline clear, the JFK Records Act that 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: passed in nineteen ninety two required that all government agencies 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: send any records concerning the JFK assassination to the National 32 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: Archives and Records Administration. These records would then be held 33 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: by the National Archives twenty five years before being released 34 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: to the public on October twenty six, twenty seventeen, that is, 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: unless the President sees a quote identifiable harm coming from 36 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: their release. Between twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen, more than 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: thirty four thousand records were released by the National Archives, 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: but on April twenty six, twenty eighteen, then President Trump 39 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: decided that government agencies could have until April twenty six, 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, to review the remaining documents to determine 41 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: whether withholding those documents from the public is still necessary. 42 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: The CIA went to President Trump and said, we couldn't 43 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 3: possibly release all of these records. And Trump's CIA director 44 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 3: Mike Pompeo agreed with the agency and the government in 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen requested the withholding of about fifteen thousand documents, 46 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 3: eleven thousand of which were CIA records. Well, when that happened, 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 3: the press start paying attention, and the press attitude towards 48 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: the JFK story started to change a little bit because 49 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 3: this level of secrecy after twenty five years just struck 50 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: people as kind of crazy. And the people who had 51 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 3: been in charge of the JFK records said, you know, 52 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 3: when we started this process, we thought in twenty seventeen 53 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: there might be one hundred records. We never expected fifteen thousand. 54 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: So the CIA took that loophole in the law and 55 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 3: they drove a giant truckload of documents through it. So 56 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 3: Trump gave the CIA what they wanted and said, we'll 57 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 3: revisit this issue in four years. So in October twenty 58 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 3: twenty one, now Biden's president, and the same question comes 59 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 3: to Biden. What Biden did was he issued an executive 60 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: order which effectively negated all of the deadlines and all 61 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 3: of the criteria of the JFK Records Act. From now on, 62 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 3: the CIA and the NSA will decide when JFK documents 63 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: can be public, So those four thousand documents are effectively 64 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 3: classified indefinitely. There is now no provision in the law 65 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 3: for them to ever be made public except when the 66 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: CIA and the NSA decide they want to. 67 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: So the agency in charge of the decision is now 68 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: the agency that likely has the most to hide. It's 69 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: dullest on the Warren Commission and George Joanned's on the 70 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: House Select Committee all over again. You can't let us 71 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: suspect have control of potential evidence. 72 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: Is it safe to say we're never going to see 73 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: those files? 74 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 3: There is no schedule for their release. 75 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: In the past, whenever a batch of documents would get released, 76 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: researchers would scramble to make sense of it. 77 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: I'm thinking of this example of a document that came 78 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 3: out in December. This guy writes a detailed memo. His 79 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: name didn't come out until twenty twenty two, you know, 80 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 3: And when we get the name, you going, look, the 81 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 3: guy died in twenty seventeen. If we'd had document in 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, that would have been a very important interview. 83 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 3: The CIA knows what they're doing. The point of this 84 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 3: secrecy is that witnesses die and they can't talk about it, 85 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 3: and the story becomes harder to get. 86 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 2: It's so frustrating. I mean, it's the greatest murder mystery 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: in the history of this country, and with so much 88 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: disinformation amplified by the Internet, it's becoming almost impossible to 89 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: get the truth out. 90 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: What's come out in recent releases and what else might 91 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: still be in there. 92 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: Another document that came into view last a year ago 93 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: was a story that we had never known before, which 94 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: was the CIA station in Miami. At a time when 95 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 3: the White House, the FBI, the Dallas Police, and the 96 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 3: Secret Service were saying one man alone did it. The 97 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 3: CIA station in Miami rejected that idea and began to 98 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: investigate anti Castro exiles for a possible role in Kennedy's assassination. 99 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 3: The people who hated him the most, so the people 100 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: who knew the Cuban exiles the best, did not believe 101 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 3: the loan gunman theory, not for a second. They investigated 102 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 3: the alternative hypothesis that Kennedy had been killed by his 103 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 3: enemies who were trying to lay the blame on Cuba. 104 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: We never knew about that investigation before, and the results 105 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 3: of that investigation were never shared with the Warren Commission 106 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 3: and have never been made public. 107 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: This is another one of those moments where you think, 108 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: how is this possible? People within the CIA were so 109 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: suspicious of the Cuban exiles that they conducted their own 110 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: investigation and their results remain hidden. 111 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: The fact that the CIA did their own investigation into 112 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: the assassination and wanted to hide it from us is 113 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: a perfect example of why there's been such a loss 114 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 2: of trust in our government. 115 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: Do we know anything about what might be in that 116 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: report from the Miami CIA office? 117 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 3: Their premise was that it was not a loan gunman, 118 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 3: and they never released the results. They have never released 119 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: the results of that investigation to this day. 120 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: What else should we know about these records? 121 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 3: I talked before about the CIA was reading Oswald's mail, 122 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: the story about Ruben Ephron. We knew that they were 123 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 3: reading Oswald's mail. We didn't realize how high that went 124 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 3: up in the CIA because of who Ephron was. The 125 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: other example is are the files of George Johannedes, the 126 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: man who ran the Cuban students who had encounters with 127 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: Oswald and who stonewalled the Congressional investigators. 128 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: Joan Edes died in nineteen ninety. 129 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 3: His records from nineteen sixty three when he handled the 130 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: Cubans in nineteen seventy eight, when he stonewalled Congress, those 131 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 3: records are classified at the very highest level. Rod whatever 132 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 3: Joan Edes was doing in nineteen sixty three, the CIA 133 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 3: is determined to keep it secret forever, and so right 134 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: now we have no prospect for ever seeing those types 135 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 3: of documents and answering those types of questions. 136 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: Do you think that if we're given the access to 137 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: the documents that are still being witheld, that we would 138 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: find a smoking gun in there. 139 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 3: I think that the Joeannedese file would be smoking gun 140 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 3: proof that senior CIA officials were running an operation using 141 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 3: Lee Harvey Oswald in late nineteen sixty three for their 142 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 3: own purposes, which they are still keeping secret. Right if 143 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: the Joan Edese documents are released and it's shown that 144 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: senior CIA officials were running an operation using Oswald and 145 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 3: they've been hiding it for sixty years, that'd be a 146 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 3: devastating blow to the CIA. 147 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: Which is why the CIA will likely never release them. 148 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: Why do you think this is still important today? 149 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 3: Why it matters today is, you know, can government be 150 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 3: held accountable? It's a test of American democracy. 151 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: And for us to pass that test, we have to 152 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: trust our institutions. The JFK story is the perfect test 153 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: of that. 154 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: Who killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me 155 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: Solidad O'Brien and Our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, 156 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman, and me Solidad O'Brien. 157 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: Our writer is David Hoffman, with research by Dick Russell. 158 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pineto. Our 159 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: senior producer is Julie Pineto. Our producers are Tristan Nash, 160 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein, and Amari Lee. Our editors are 161 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: Tristan Nash, Julie Pinneto, and Marcus de Laudo. Our project 162 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: manager is Carol Klein. Our associate producer is emilse Kiros. Mixing, 163 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: mastering and sound design by Ben la Julier, Research and 164 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: fact checking by Girl Friday and emilse Kiros. Business affairs 165 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: by Hennan Nadea. And Jonathan Furman. Our consulting producer is 166 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: Razanne Galliini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio and Fourth 167 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: Street Recording Studio. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Production assistants 168 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: by Rocco Deel Prior and Grace barn Special thanks to 169 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: Johenig Rose Arsa and Dan Storper. 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