1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Guys, I want to tell you I am so excited 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: and so blessed. Something wonderful is happening. A lot of 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: you have asked when will you be back on TV, 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: and I've wondered the same thing. Well it's happening. It's 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: this Thursday night, premiering on A and E. Grace Versus Abrams, 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: my sparring buddy Dan Abrams and I take on the 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: biggest cases and investigations that our country has ever seen. 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: Thursday night, March nine, eleven pm. Please join us again. 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: I am so blessed, and you've been with me for 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: all these years. Please join me on A and E 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: March eleven pm. Thanks friend. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace 12 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. The people 13 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: they once loved paid to have them killed. Prosecutors played 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: audio recordings of defendant Leon Jacob talking to an undercover 15 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: officer posing as a hit man. She is Megan Vera Kiss, 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: Jacob's ex girlfriend. He was charged with a sultaner in 17 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: the spring of last year. The defense, on the other hand, 18 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: argues Jacob loved his ex girlfriend, but prosecutors saved those 19 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: feelings of love turned into anger in March of last year, 20 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: Jacob had started dating veterinarian Valerie McDaniel. The undercover officer 21 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: testified both talk to him about dealing with their exes. 22 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: The targets of the alleged plot even worked with investigators 23 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: staging their own kidnapping and murder. Oh what a tangled 24 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: web we weave when first we practice to deceive. Sadly, 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: I can't take credit for that. I did not make 26 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: it up. Listen to this. A woman stages her own kidnapping, 27 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: a man stages his own murder, complete with fake bloody photographs. Why, 28 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: it was all part of an elaborate sting. They wanted 29 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: to catch the man who paid a hit man twenty 30 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: thou dollars to assassinate both of them. When you see 31 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 1: these photos, you see the woman, she's crying, she's gagged, 32 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: she has duct tape over her mouth, her hands and 33 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: ankles are bound. It's Megan Vicus. She looks kidnapped, crying 34 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: all bent over the photos of the man I'm talking about, 35 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: Mark McDaniel, with a bullet wound to his head, blood 36 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: pouring down his face. Surprise, she's not kidnapped and he's 37 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: not dead. I'm Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank 38 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: you for being with us. WHOA take a listen to 39 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: this and you'll hear that all options are on the 40 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: table when it comes to me, all of kidnapping her, 41 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: planning drugs in her car to get her in trouble, 42 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: and ultimately killing And there will be no question that 43 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: Megan's death is an option, a prominent option in the 44 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: plane here because you're here to defend it himself state 45 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: that he would like to kill her himself. You heard 46 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: that right. You will hear him say he will make 47 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: reference to potassium chloride that will stop her heart. And 48 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: then it's untracing. So the stakes here are clear. He 49 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: believes he's talking to it hit man. He is talking 50 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: about killing his ex girl straight out to Jason Ocean's 51 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer throughout the North East, joining me, Jason, 52 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: I mean, does it never end another guy ordering a hit? 53 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: And this here's the kicker, He's the X. It's over, 54 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: but he still wants to kill her and her new boyfriend. 55 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: And now the court has been shown stage photos of 56 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: the new boyfriend pretending to be dead from a bullet 57 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: to the head. There's blood going down his face. The 58 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: side of his head and her the the ex the woman, 59 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: the alleged victim in this case, pretending to be kidnapped, 60 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: all tied up and bound and gagged. They posed for 61 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: these photos for police to catch the guy who hired 62 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: a hit man to kill them, both Megan Vericus and 63 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: mc McDaniel posing for a detectives who were trying to 64 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: snare their former partners. And it's just not Leon Jacob, 65 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: it's also Valerie McDaniels, so both of their exes are 66 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: in the murder plot. Jason, I mean, really can't get 67 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: any better than this. Wasn't wasn't there a song? My 68 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: ex is from Texas? I mean, it just seems to 69 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: fit perfectly as the Netflix movie of the week of 70 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: it's a reality show. And by the way, just as 71 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: a point of questioning, doesn't the general public realize that 72 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: there are really no people out there who are hit men, 73 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: as if that's their job, that you could hire someone. 74 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: They're all cops, They're all undercover and just waiting for 75 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: the sickness to come out. I just don't know who 76 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: thinks there's really yours like the Spider and the Fly, 77 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: listen to this. Dr Bethany Marshall l a psychoanalysts joining us. Now, 78 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: the McDaniels were divorced, and very Ka said ended her 79 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: relationship with Jacob, but she still owed him her ex 80 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: husband one point to five million dollars from selling of 81 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: their estates in their homes and they're belongings. And he 82 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: was a subject of a protection order stopping him from 83 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: contacting his ex Okay, so there you go. So both 84 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: exes had motivation to kill their exes. Can you imagine 85 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: being in a new relationship and all of a sudden 86 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: you have to stage your own kidnapping in your own 87 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: death in order to throw both of your ex relationship. 88 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean, what is it? What are the stats? Okay, 89 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: if your first marriage is in divorce, okay, that's about 90 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: fifty of marriages I think. But then your second marriage, 91 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: you know, no offense. But I'm not in the business 92 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: of playing Cupid. Of these two don't make it. I 93 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: can't help that. But what about this, listen, listen? Prosecutors 94 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: say he the defendant Leon Jacobs, wanted her dad so 95 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: she couldn't testify against him and his stalking case. Like, 96 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: if that doesn't prove the stalking right there, he's trying 97 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: to have her killed. So she and that's so typical 98 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: with stalking, where the perpetrator says, I either want to 99 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: own you or possess you, or I want you dead. 100 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's really the typical psychology. Um. So, so 101 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: it sounds like he was stalking her. He wanted to 102 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: get her back. But at the same time, the psychology 103 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: of stalking is to go after the victim for perceived 104 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: rejection because stalker's always imagine that there's a relationship when 105 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: there's evidence there's no evidence to support that. So he 106 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: must have imagined he was with her even though she 107 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: had already moved on with her life, and he either 108 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: wanted to kill her or get her back. It's such 109 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: a a sick and twisted way to say, Oh, it's 110 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: dog the bounty hunter, right, isn't that the name of 111 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: the A and A show dog Bounty Hunt in I 112 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 1: got a saucepar spot for Beth Chapman. I think she's awesome, 113 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: but the state would have And I'm working this in 114 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: Just go with me on this, Jason and Bethany. I'm 115 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: I'm getting to a point here, all right, So how 116 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: do I get Beth Chapman and Dog the bounty hunter 117 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: in this scenario. All right, this is how the defense 118 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: would have you believe. In this case, which is a 119 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: double hit, a man and a woman want their ex 120 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: is dead for various reasons. So the ex is find 121 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: out about it, they go to police, and they stage 122 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: their own kidnapping and murder and take photos to snare 123 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: the murderous duo. The defense would have you believe in 124 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: entrapment that the state set them up. They had nothing 125 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: to do with this, They were lured into it by 126 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: the would be hitman. Zach Ah. Think about all the 127 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: bounty hunters that you have seen on Dog the Bounty 128 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: hunt her. I just spoke at a bail bond gathering 129 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: in Vegas and I met a lot of very wonderful 130 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: people there. But um, think about bounty hunters. They want 131 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: you dead or alive. Okay? He actually the defendant, Leon Jacobs, 132 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: blabbed to a Bill Bonsman. This is not a cop, 133 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: this is not an FBI agent. It's a Bell bondsman 134 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: who's out there getting down and dirty, hunting down criminals 135 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,359 Speaker 1: every day. Listen to what the Bill Bonsman had to say. 136 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: Did you get through the course of your conversation with 137 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: the defendant. Um, were you ever alarmed at the phrasing 138 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: of things or the way that he said things about 139 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: his problem with me? Yes? In fact, I said, well, 140 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: I asked him, why are you talking to me like this? 141 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm a I'm not just a bondsman. 142 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: I'm a city council member. I've taken a note of 143 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: office to protect and defend the constitution and the people 144 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: of the city want why are you talking to me 145 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: like this? Uh? Did you have any idea? Did he 146 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: ever tell you the reason he felt comfortable telling you 147 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: about getting rid of a witness in the Stocking case? 148 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: He said that all he was so so focused on 149 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: was getting Zack's number. He had paid him a lot 150 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: of money, and he wanted this, this witness, which I 151 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: learned to be Megan Vera KOs to not testify against 152 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: him on these cases because it would also hurt his 153 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: medical license. And Uh, did you ever provide any information 154 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: to him of any kind? I told you about the 155 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: time that that all this was happening, one of my 156 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: staff members, John Gibbs, uh, knocked on the door, opened 157 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: the door. Uh, And he said, counselmember, We've got to 158 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: go to Kingwood with the mayor on a c I 159 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: P project, and so it gave me an out to 160 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 1: get out of there. And I was feeling very uncomfortable 161 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: because I felt like that I had just learned that something, 162 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: uh something was going on that was very bad. So 163 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: that's how the whole thing comes to light. This Bill 164 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: Bondsman goes to police. I mean, Jason Oceans come on 165 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: bail Bondsman testifying alongside law enforcement. That's a pretty powerful 166 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: combination against the defense. With all due respect, bail Bondsman 167 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: in the convention, you are at some of the bail 168 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: Bondsman I've met, or just as nefarious as the CRISP bla. Jason, 169 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: wait a minute, that's what I always would say to 170 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: you on cor TV when I really can come up 171 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: with an answer, blah blah blah. So go ahead. Well wait, well, 172 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: that's that's the typical prosecutors response to defense, just trying 173 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: to create a reasonable doubt anywhere that you can't brutal tape. 174 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: For Pete's sake, they're caught on tape planning the murders. Nancy, 175 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: what do you want me to say? We want to 176 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: be the defense counsel? Do you want yes, yes, I do. 177 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: The defense counsel says, we're going to keep doing to 178 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: create reasonable doubt. But but you know as well, at 179 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: the end of the day, despite the best defense counsel, 180 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: if the evidence is overwhelming and a prosecutor like yourself 181 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: is bringing forth the case, they're going down despite what 182 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: you create. So it's good theater and it's a you know, 183 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: sick tortured the fact pattern. But you know, if there's 184 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: all of this and everyone is as credible as can 185 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: be with due deference to the bail bondsman, uh you know, 186 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: I'm going now some photo Dr Bethany h In another 187 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: image shown to the court, they would be victim McDaniels 188 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: appears still in the car with his sunglasses on and Jack, 189 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: you look at this. This is an awesome photo of 190 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: the guy that was supposed to be dead by the 191 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: hitman has slumped over his the wheel of his car 192 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: with fake blood. I don't know what it is, pouring 193 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: out the back of his head, down his face and 194 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: his I mean, that's very convincing. According to his testimony, 195 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: it was pig blood, and so the way he slumped 196 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 1: over the car steering whill that sort of the glasses 197 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: are half off his face, he has blonde hair, looks 198 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: like there's a hole in his head, there's blood everywhere. Um. 199 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: But then when Mac is on the witness stand talking 200 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: about this, he really reflects on this whole stunt as 201 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: an ordeal and talks about the fact that if the 202 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: perpetrators had been successful, that his eight year old daughter 203 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: would not have had parents. And he said that the 204 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: ordeal was was unimaginable, So I cannot imagine what these 205 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: uh potential victims went through. And the fact that Leon 206 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: bragged to a bail bondsman to me, just from a 207 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: psychology perspective, he was not only obsessed with his ex 208 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: in terms of stalking her, but he was blobbing to 209 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: everybody else about her too, So he had a true 210 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: obsessive preoccupation with her. So he needs to be behind 211 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: bars because he's one of these guys that will never 212 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: stop stalking her. It'll go on and on for the 213 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: rest of all. McDonald and Leon Jacob allegedly hatched this 214 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: plot to murder their exes together. The pair were dating 215 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: at the time. Valerie still Valerie McDon McDaniel still owed 216 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: her ex husband one point to five million dollars from 217 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: their divorce, and Leon Jacob was under a protective order 218 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: telling him not to contact her any more, not to 219 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: contact Vicus. Now listen to what he says. All right, 220 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: the hit man, excuse me, the bail bosman said that 221 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: first she wanted to use potassium chlori to her heart. 222 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: Quote it was untraceable. Those were his words. Freak. Now 223 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: Jacob says that he denies the charges and insists he 224 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: wants to spend the rest of his life with Megan. 225 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: That's right, Bethany Marshall, with him walking the earth and 226 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: her and the cemetery for the rest of the rest 227 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: of his life. That's what he wanted. You know, Nancy, 228 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: I've treated stalkers in my practice, and they are so unpleasant. 229 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: They are so difficult to listen to because they are 230 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: preoccupied with their exes. They claim to love their exes, 231 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: and yet they hate their exes, and they will do 232 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: everything possible to run their excess lives. You know, I've 233 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: heard it all. I've heard wanting to expose videos on 234 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: the internet, wanting to send letters to family members, wanting 235 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: to cyber stock, wanting to show up at the ex's 236 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: um workplace. But I mean, this is really terrible. Wanting 237 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: to kill the X and so you know, if he 238 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: kills his ex, he has control over her right for 239 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: the rest of her life. I mean, this was the 240 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: ultimate end game for you know, another thing, Jason, otions 241 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: I want to put the Center's perspective. When I first 242 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: learned about this case, I learned about her Valerie the defendant. Okay, 243 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: she was a very beloved and well respected veterinarian, very 244 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: successful veterinarian with as Bething just pointed out, a little 245 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: girl to live for now, she filed for divorce. I 246 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: believe it's how it went. And so she falls for 247 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: a divorce and full custody. Then they started a custody battle, okay, 248 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: and this plot was hatched. She later was so distraught, Jason, 249 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: she made bill After they were arrested for hiring a 250 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: hit man, she jumped off the balcony to her death. 251 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: Now the only one left to be on trial is mcdan. 252 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: Is Jacob a sad fact pattern relative to you know, 253 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: the value she had in in her professional license. Really, 254 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: it would seem that that debt of you know, one 255 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: point to five that she owed her ex. You know, 256 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: Dr Marshall could speak to it, but obviously that boiled 257 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: over into some sort of you know, hatred and anger 258 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: such that she couldn't even think clearly about her child. 259 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: Listen to this, guys. He told me that um, basically, uh, 260 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: that he has ex has an assault case on him 261 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: and that is it's destroying his life, and that he 262 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: wants me to actually um kidnap her, uh basically to 263 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: convince her that that that to drop it and as 264 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: long as he can talk to her, um, because she 265 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: loves him and he loves she, would actually change her mind. 266 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: So he wants to be there at the you know 267 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: where where I kidnapped her and if it if it 268 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: doesn't work, um, he actually wanted me to um make 269 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: it disappear and now, of course, which I consider to 270 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: be a bad idea. Jacob testifies in his own defense lesson, 271 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: I never asked anybody to kill anybody. Does the word 272 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: kill her harm in any way, shape or form appeared 273 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: in any of those recorded conversations. Not all I behalf, 274 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: except for to exclude them from things I want done. 275 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: I never asked to have anybody hurt, killed, harmed, um kidnapped. 276 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: I never asked for anybody to be in any way 277 00:18:53,359 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: physically hurt. Did you pay money at all or this purpose? No? 278 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: All right, well, there was no purpose for me to 279 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: pay money towards anybody being hurt, because I never asked 280 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: for that. Did you ever pay money two an undercover 281 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: officer for the purpose of harming or hurting either Megan 282 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: or by game. No? Did you ever discuss that issue 283 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: with the uncover officer? We had. Yes, we had multiple 284 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: discussions or multiple conversations about not wanting to harm or 285 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:46,719 Speaker 1: hurt anybody. And that was something that you had expressed 286 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: correct repeatedly. You know, Jason Oceans, why would he take 287 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: the stand? You know it turned out badly. I mean, 288 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: I was just working on the Robert Blake case for 289 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: Dan Abrams in myn uh new program with A and 290 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: A Grace Versus Abrams ps A premieres March twenty nine. 291 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: That's Thursday night at eleven o'clock. Who I'll be watching, Nancy? 292 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: Who you better be? Oceans and Dr Bethany, I know 293 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: you'll be at watching. And I was looking at Blake 294 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: when he did not testify. He got acquitted when he 295 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: testified at trial at civil trial. They came back with 296 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 1: a thirty million dollar judgment against him. Why do people 297 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: take the stand? People take the stand generally in limited circumstances. 298 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: Most of the time. As you know, defense counsel wants 299 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, go through each piece 300 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: of evidence and uh sort of you know, tear it 301 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: apart and discredit it to some degree to create reasonable doubt. 302 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: I think in this case, maybe you know, he presents 303 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: as a good looking buy maybe he called Dall in 304 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: his mind, you know, charmed the jurors in some way. Uh. 305 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: I think it was his decision and rather than defense 306 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: counsel and uh, at the end of the day, you know, 307 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: your client makes a call on that despite your overwhelming 308 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: insistence that he shouldn't or she should. And just in Aladington, 309 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: a sentence have just gone down in the courtroom. Listen 310 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: what the defendant three said and cause number one five four, three, 311 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: eight one two were the jury find having found the 312 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: defendant Leon Philip Jacob guilty of solicitation of capital murder, 313 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: assess his punishment of confinement, and the Institutional Division of 314 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: the Texas Department of Criminal Justice for life sussifying in 315 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: the amount of ten thousand dollars. Calls number one, five 316 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: four three eight one three were the jury, having found 317 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: the defendant, Leon Philip Jacob guilty of solicitation of capital murder, 318 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: assess his punishment of confinement in the Institutional Division of 319 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: the Texas Department of Criminal Justice for life ac sessifying 320 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: the amount of one thousand and ten thousand dollars. Thank you, 321 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: maybe sits. Do you have anything to say, Mr Jacob 322 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: before I pronounced these sentences? Okay, it's the art of 323 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: the court, than Mr Jacob, that you haven't been found 324 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: guilty of two cases of solicitation of capital murder being 325 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: now delivered by the Sheriff of Harris County to the 326 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: director of the Institutional Division of the Texas Department of 327 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: Criminal Justice, or on both cases you shop serve a 328 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: life sentence and be fulled credited all the time that 329 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: you've already served on this case. Thank you. Can you 330 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: even imagine giving birth to a beautiful baby girl in 331 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: the hospital and just forty eight hours later the baby 332 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: is taken from you from the hospital. What I Meancy Grace, 333 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us. 334 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: That is exactly what happened to a couple in the 335 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: Miami Day area in Florida. Mom gives birth to a 336 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: beautiful baby girl. Rebecca Sanders is the mom. She gives 337 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: birth to baby Ingrid Ronan Johnson, only to see the 338 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: baby whisked away by none other than police. The Mika 339 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: Suki Indian American Indian tribal police come to the hospital. 340 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: They leave their area where they live. They can't travel 341 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,959 Speaker 1: to the hospital at Baptist Hospital in Miami, off the 342 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: tribal reservation the Everglades. They get the baby and take 343 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: it back to their reservation. What the little girl's parents 344 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: since been four days complaining to police and prosecutors, saying 345 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: the tribal order to take the little baby away from 346 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: them had been cooked up by the baby's grandmother to 347 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: keep the baby on the Indian reservation. Now, the mother 348 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: in this scenario is an American Indian, the father is white, 349 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: and the grandmother on the Indian reservation wanted nothing to 350 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: do with the baby being ra Baby Ingrid being raised 351 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: off the reservation. But let me get the whole story. 352 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: Maybe I've got it wrong, Paul Chamber with me, Crime Stories, 353 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: investigative reporter. Take it from the top, Paul, what happened? Well, Nancy, 354 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: you actually got to everything just about right. What we're 355 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: dealing with here is a question of whether the Miccosuki 356 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: nation overstepped its authority. A tribal court issued a child 357 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: custody order on March see the baby was born March 358 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: sixte and then it dispatched two police detectives to pick 359 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: up the child, a newborn, at Baptist Hospital in Kendall, 360 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: Florida's Bourbon Miami. The question is whether the tribe sovereign 361 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: rights extends to locations off the reservation, and legal experts 362 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: say tribal court orders must be endorsed first by state, 363 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: local or federal court before they can be enforced. So uh, 364 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: Miami Dade County police say the detectives told them that 365 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: they were enforcing a federal court order, and that apparently 366 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: wasn't the case. The baby was taken, and then at 367 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: a tribal hearing on the twenty two the the the 368 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: court of ordered that the child be returned. And but 369 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: they still claim jurisdiction over the child because of a 370 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: metrolineal sort of determination of whether the child is Indian 371 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: or not. If the mother is a tribe member, the 372 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: court considers the child to be a tribe member. Wow, 373 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: well that may be what the tribe considers, but I 374 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: don't know the mother and the father agreed with that. 375 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan joining US forensics expert Joe Scott. What 376 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: do you make of it? Hey, I gotta tell you, Nancy, Uh, 377 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: this idea of some group of people rushing in to 378 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: snatch a newborn baby. I mean this, This is absolutely 379 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: mind blowing um that authorities could come in and and 380 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: on a whims. It's you know, the this idea that 381 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: there's some kind of animals. That's right, Hey, every family 382 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: dynamic has some kind of animals, some kind of problems, 383 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: some kind of everybody doesn't like this person, this sort 384 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: of thing. The fear, the fear. Can you imagine being 385 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: a child's father and knowing that your child is being 386 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: snatched away from you, being taken away by authorities, and 387 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: then being spirited away to a location that he may 388 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: never have access to the child. It's terrifying, terrifying in 389 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: a free country like this. You know, I'm a little 390 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: overwhelmed that not only did they come take the baby 391 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: away based on the grandmother's I don't know what position 392 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: she holds within the tribe, but by the grandmother's say, 393 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: though to Dr Brian Russell, host of Investigation Discoveries Fatal 394 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: Vow series, he was also a lawyer and psychologist, it 395 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't be the first time grand mos got involved. That's right. 396 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: I've been an expert in child custody cases for some 397 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: time now, and I don't doubt that the grandmother had 398 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: some kind of concern I'm not saying if the concerns 399 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: are valid or not. I'm just saying I don't doubt 400 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: that the grandmother had concerns that the father of her 401 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: daughter's baby was, you know, had had done things in 402 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: the past that she was concerned about him being around 403 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: the grand baby. And I don't doubt that she went 404 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: in front of the tribal court and made that case 405 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: in a way that caused the tribal court to be 406 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: concerned about the welfare of this child. I think that 407 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: the problem is that, uh, this the interaction between uh 408 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: you know, tribal courts and the society outside of the 409 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: reservation is a complicated thing. In fact, in the Supreme 410 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: Court actually dealt with the case about it, the baby 411 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: Veronica case, about where the tribal courts jurisdiction ends and 412 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: the the the you know, the courts of the of 413 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: the United States outside of the reservations begins and and 414 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: and so I think that you know that it's the 415 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: hospital that did not have the proper procedures in place 416 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: to to really that went ahead and released a baby 417 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: under a tribal court order when they were missing the 418 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: court order from the county, the Miami Dead County court, 419 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: which is what they needed in order to have it 420 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: be a valid custody order outside of the reservation. This 421 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: is what we know the little girl Ingrid. Baby Ingrid 422 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: was born to a Mikasuki mother, an American Indian mother, 423 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: and a white father. Two days after Ingrid was born, 424 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: tribal detectives enter Baptist Hospital in Kindall it's off the 425 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: tribal reservation, and took Ingrid away from her parents, Rebecca 426 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: Sanders and Justin Johnson. Well, let's sparked outrage from Florida 427 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: to d C. We also here and I have not 428 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: confirmed that the Mikosuki police were accompanied by Miami Dade 429 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: police officers and carried a court order. It had to 430 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: be a tribal court order. Well, the parents immediately filed 431 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: complaints with police, prosecutors and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, 432 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: saying the tribal order was just concocted by the baby's grandmother, 433 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: baby Asiola, to keep the father away from the little girl. Well, 434 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: the tribal order grants custody not to the mother, but 435 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: to the grandmother. I don't know how this happens, how 436 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: the baby gets taken away from the mother. Now, according 437 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: two sources, the grandmother feared and correct me if I'm wrong, 438 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: Paul Chambers, that there have been domestic abuse? Is that true? 439 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: Had her daughter gotten beaten up by the father in 440 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: the past, Well, Nascy, you're right. Osciola now hasn't said 441 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: anything except through her attorney, and she does claim that 442 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: her daughter is a victim of domestic violence. Those are 443 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: the exact words, a victim of domestic violence relating to 444 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: the father. And uh so she feared for the child's safety. 445 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: And one thing we should also mention, Nancy, is that 446 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: two previous children had by Sanders are now in the custody, 447 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,719 Speaker 1: are not in her custody anymore because of actions taken 448 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: by this same woman, Betty Osciola and uh the parents 449 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: of sanders previous relationship. Now we also know that at 450 00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: one point the mother had a restraining order against the father. Still, 451 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: even if that's true, to Dr Brian Russell, host of 452 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: I D S Fatal vows, you still can't come in 453 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: and take the baby away from the mother because at 454 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: one time she had it was training order against this man. 455 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: Well that's right. Basically, Uh, it sounds to me like 456 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: the Miami Dade Police. So that so the the police 457 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: in the county where the hospital was located were led 458 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: to believe that the tribal court order was a federal 459 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: court order and that this is where the complexity comes 460 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: in about the tribal courts and the courts off the reservations. Uh, 461 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: it is confusing, and I think that those police officers 462 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: probably believed that they were actually helping the tribal police 463 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: to execute a federal court order, which they were not doing. 464 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,719 Speaker 1: They were actually helping the tribal police to execute a 465 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: tribal court order which does not have any effect outside 466 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: of the reservation unless they get a judge to endorse 467 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: it in the jurisdiction where the hospital is. And that's 468 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: what didn't happen. So you've got some perhaps some culpability 469 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: on the part of the police for not knowing that 470 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: or not getting a legal opinion about it before they 471 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: helped to enforce it. Certainly the hospital apparently didn't have 472 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: the right procedures in place to make sure they were 473 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: releasing a child only under pursue into a valid court order. Well, 474 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: here's the thing. I want to vilify the grandmother for 475 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: taking the baby, but I also know the grandmother has 476 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: two of this woman's other children she's raising, according to reports, 477 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: and there'd been a t r O against the father. 478 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: But I and so she may be motivated by trying 479 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: to protect the children. On the other hand, the mother 480 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: says she just did not want her baby. The grandmother 481 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: didn't want the baby to be raised off the reservation. 482 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you something, Joe Scott Morgan, 483 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: I remember trying to investigate a homicide that occurred on reservation. 484 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: I've never been stone Wall, so much in my life 485 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: is to try to get information about the murder that 486 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: occurred Indian reservations. American Indian reservations are sovereign. They are 487 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: for instance, um, they're like their own country within the U. 488 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: S u. S. Law does not affect them. No, it doesn't, Nancy. 489 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, I've worked cases that 490 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: are in fact related uh to uh to Indian reservations. 491 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: And it's a nightmare. But you know, going back to 492 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: what you said, uh, you know, it seems as though 493 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: this is systemic of the rest of our society. It's 494 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: like due processes dying here right before our very eyes, 495 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: and not just in this case, but all over the place. 496 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: This idea that you know, you're you're you're guilty until 497 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: you're proven innocent. In this case, that's what's so terrifying 498 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: about is and these people that yeah, live in this 499 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: this fifetom of their own on this reservation, can come 500 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: outside of that reservation and execute what they're presenting as 501 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: do is lawful authority in this hospital. I want to 502 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: know where hospital council was, uh, the lawyers. I want 503 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: to know where the protections were at the hospital, because 504 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: somebody's got to call a time out in this case 505 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: before that child leaves with these people. How do we 506 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: know what kind of what kind of care the child 507 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: is going to receive when the child wants upon the reservation. 508 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: It leaves a lot of questions for me. It's a 509 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: it's a cloaked, closed society and they can come and 510 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: go and do as they please take a listen to 511 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: what the parents have to say. She calls me hysterical, 512 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: ask her what's wrong, and she said that they were there, 513 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: that they were taking taking her baby. Incomes in the 514 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: detective Michael Gay, and then a few of the security 515 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 1: and also hospital staff, and he had The detective asked 516 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: me if I knew what was going on, and said, no, 517 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. And then he said, well, 518 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: your baby is being taken. Um, she is no longer 519 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: in your custody. You're not her mother anymore. There has 520 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: been a rolling done where all custody was granted to 521 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: the grandmother. And I was like, how can this be? 522 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: I haven't I'm still in the hospital, like I haven't 523 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: been to the court hearing nothing. Nobody's notified me of anything. 524 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: And where's your Do you have any paperwork, any you know, 525 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: anything telling me that this is happening, like you know, 526 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: I can't just let you leave. And he said that 527 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: he didn't see any paperwork, doesn't doesn't have any paperwork, 528 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: in fact, hasn't even seen it. He was just told 529 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: to come to the hospital and do this. She was 530 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: actually on the phone, had me on speaker and the 531 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: detective that was there from Nikosuki p D. Even while 532 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: we're on the phone, she's like, will you at least 533 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: speak to the file learn tell him what's going on. 534 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: In his exact words was I don't have anything to 535 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: say to him. I don't need to talk to him. 536 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: And they didn't let me see my baby again. They 537 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: wouldn't even let me look at her nothing, they'd let 538 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,720 Speaker 1: her leave. I'm still trying to wrap my head around 539 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: how how this has happened. She can't even sleep because 540 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: anytimes closer her eyes, you know, she wakes up thinking 541 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: that she's that she's hearing her baby crying, and her 542 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: baby is not even there. I don't get how a 543 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: mother could do this to her own daughter while her 544 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: daughter is laying in a hospital bed. I cannot, for 545 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: the life of me, I cannot wrap my head around that. 546 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: I don't see how the people of the Mikosuki tribe 547 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,959 Speaker 1: can can look at me in the face and tell 548 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: me that this is okay. Right now, they are hiding 549 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: behind their suffentity. They're using that to protect My daughter 550 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: is not even a tribal member. I feel like I 551 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: have no what that I don't I thought the tribe 552 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: was to protect its people or not use their own 553 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: rulings to control their people. Right now, the baby has 554 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: been ordered back to the mother. We are on the case. 555 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: A sobbing wife goes before news cameras in California, begging 556 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: for the public to come forward with information regarding who 557 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: hurled a basketball sized rock from an overpass down to 558 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: kill her husband. This gorgeous young woman, twenty one year 559 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 1: old Guadalupe Gatiras, wipes away tears as she describes how 560 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: she and her husband, twenty three year old Christopher, had 561 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: learned she was expecting their second child. Quote he was 562 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: so excited, she says through tears. Take a listen to 563 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: what she says. Five months ago, me and my husband's 564 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: decided a family. We've decided to have a second child. 565 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: About two weeks ago we found out I was pregnant. 566 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: He was so excited. I thought it was so excited 567 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: to be a big sister. I don't know where tell 568 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: He's God. We're asking for your hope, anybody side anything. 569 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: She's help. Didn't him He's deserve I thought her didn't 570 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: deserve this. The murderous incident takes place just before nine 571 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: o'clock in the evening. Now, according to Chips California Highway Patrol, 572 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: Christopher was riding as a passenger and his wife's Toyota 573 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: Corolla along the one four and passed under the Orange 574 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: Growth boulevard overpassed. That's near passad not where someone hurls 575 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: a thirty five pound boulder a rock at the vehicle below. 576 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: Now that had to be precision timing. Let me tell 577 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 1: you he Christopher was struck by the rock and suffered 578 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: fatal injuries. Of course, she the wife, rushes him as 579 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: quickly she said can to Glendale Adventist Medical Center. He 580 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: was pronounced dead just forty minutes after, according to kt 581 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: l A, and this had to be intentional. Now, also 582 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: in the car their four year old little girl and 583 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: Guitara's mother. They were not harmed, but the little girl 584 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: witnessed the whole thing, and now she's left to raise 585 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: not one child four years old, but the unborn baby 586 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 1: to raise by her self. Straight out to Paul Chamber, 587 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: Crime Stories Investigative Report, Let's take it from the beginning. 588 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: How the whole thing go down? Well, Nancy, you know 589 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 1: a week is passed now and there's still no takers 590 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: of this twenty thousand dollar reward that's now being offered 591 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: for information on this incident. Uh, but you you had 592 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: it right. I mean a boulder was basically pushed over 593 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: offense and fell onto a car that was traveling on 594 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: this Pasadena Freeway below this Toyota Corolla. This happened on 595 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: March thirte The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors approved 596 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 1: the money marsh twentieth. Now, this boulder is about the 597 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: size of a volleyball, slightly smaller than a basketball. It 598 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: fell onto the Corolla. It crashed straight through the hole, 599 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: was very round in the passenger side of the windshield. 600 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: It was being driven by Guadalupe Gautieri's it crashed through 601 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 1: the windshield. It landed on the chest of her husband, 602 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: Christopher Lopez. She uh. The car swerved radically as you 603 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: can imagine. She did manage, though, however, to drive her 604 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: husband to a nearby hospital in Glendale. He didn't make it. 605 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: He died of his injuries. As you mentioned, Nancy, the 606 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: couple's four year old daughter was in the backseat of 607 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: the car. The woman was pregnant with the victims child. 608 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: Both of them were uninjured and there are no suspects 609 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: and it's very frustrating, I imagine for local authorities because 610 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: there isn't a lot they can do. Uh. There has 611 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: been some reporting from the region that there are no 612 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: apparent surveillance cameras in the areas, so they have no 613 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: video to draw upon. They are testing the boulder for 614 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,800 Speaker 1: DNA evidence to see if they might come up with 615 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 1: something there. And the only other theory that I've heard 616 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: is that a lot of homeless people live in the area, 617 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: and you know, they could dispatch detectives, I suppose is 618 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: to talk to the homeless people to see if they 619 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: might have any clues as to what happened. But really 620 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: there's not a there's not a lot of directions to go, 621 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: and no one's claimed the reward. Well, Alan, do you 622 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: you went to the Saint What did you say? What 623 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: did you learn? It's a high fence. It's about seven 624 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: feet tall chain link fence, but it curves, you know, 625 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: on the inside, specifically built to prevent this kind of 626 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: a thing, and it it goes the overpass, goes over 627 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: the very busy one thirty four, which I drove last 628 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: night and very regularly. You have to be tall and 629 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: strong to have tossed a thirty five pound rock over 630 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: this fence, and the timing of it just horrible, because 631 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: it's just crazy how it landed right in the middle 632 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: of this man's chest. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, 633 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott has 634 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: just endured uh disaster of his own. Tornadoes were ripping 635 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: through his homestead, destroyed his home, all their possessions. He 636 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: and his wife and son are in temporary housing right now. 637 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: We have a go fund me on our website crime 638 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: online dot Com if you can help Joe Scott. Joe Scott, 639 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for being back with us 640 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: and lending us your expertise this soon after that disaster, 641 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 1: as your wife is still picking through the remains. I mean, 642 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,760 Speaker 1: I just finished a photo album of Christmas two thousand fifteen, 643 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: and it took me forever, and I put it on 644 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: the shelf with all the other photo albums, and I 645 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: was just thinking about all the things your wife has 646 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: created and kept over the years as you raised your son, 647 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: and all of it just lost. We've been praying for 648 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: you so much, Joe Scott. Thank you, Nancy. That means 649 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: a lot to me. The love that you guys have 650 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,360 Speaker 1: extended to me, it means more than you can possibly know. 651 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: And hey, the best place to be is with your 652 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: family to recover from this. And you guys on crime 653 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: a Line, y'all are my family as well. So thank you. 654 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,240 Speaker 1: This particular case, I've been following it actually since before 655 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: the tornado struck here in Jacksonville, and I've been very 656 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: fascinated by this. I like the fact that Adam that 657 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: Alan was able to go out and put eyes on 658 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: the scene. We've worked cases like this before, Nancy, We've 659 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: discussed this and many times it's mischievous teenagers, Nancy, this 660 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: wasn't a teenager that did this. This fence is very, 661 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: very tall, the rock wade thirty five pounds, and in 662 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: order to have this thing over, you would have to 663 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: be either very tall or and here's the kicker, or 664 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,919 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to have assistance this place. This would 665 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: have required I think two adult males in order to 666 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,719 Speaker 1: facilitate this thing. And we have a huge homeless population 667 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: in this area. You have to get it over this rise. Now, 668 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: the odds, why you blame me the homeless people, They're 669 00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 1: just trying to find that their next meal. Well, apparently 670 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: some of them found a thirty five pound boulder two 671 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: and somebody has tossed this thing over, and I sure 672 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: want to know who did it and who took this 673 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: man away from this family, completely wrecked their life. And 674 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: the police need to go out there, and they've got 675 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: to rattle some cages and get some answers to this thing, 676 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: because twenty dollars has not made anything shake loose yet. 677 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: Let me tell you something else. They're talking about the 678 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,399 Speaker 1: evidential concerns here. They're talking about DNA. This is gonna 679 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,720 Speaker 1: be a long shot because what they're gonna be looking 680 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: for this in this particular case is touch DNA. And 681 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: let me paint a picture for you for our listeners. 682 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: If you think about touch DNA, all it is is 683 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: dead sin skin cells that transfer onto an object. If 684 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: people at home will just take baby powder and put 685 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: it in their hand and gently blow, that's how That's 686 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: how fragile touch DNA is. So you're gonna if they 687 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: contact this rock, leave dead skin cells on it, then 688 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,800 Speaker 1: push it over an eight foot rise, have it traveled 689 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: through the air at great velocity, then passed through an 690 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: intermediate target, which is that windshield and strike this man 691 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: center mass right in his chest. This guy's got crushing 692 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: chest injuries, and Nancy, it would not be a surprise 693 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: to me if this man's heart and his lungs and 694 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: possibly even his spine were completely crushed in this in 695 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,439 Speaker 1: this situation, terrible, terrible way to die. And I don't 696 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: know if they're gonna be able to recovering any evidence 697 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: off this thing. Would his death have been immediate? Jef Scott, 698 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,800 Speaker 1: I think that it would. He would have had an awareness, Nancy. 699 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: And that's that's the thing about it. I don't know 700 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 1: about his head injuries. If he was absent head injuries, 701 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 1: he would have had an awareness that he had in 702 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 1: fact been struck. Let's keep in mind. You have to 703 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: keep in mind that he traveled to the hospital. I 704 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: don't know how long it would have taken him to 705 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: get to the hospital. The wife is just in a fury. 706 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: He's breathing his last breast, literally gurgling in blood. Uh 707 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,439 Speaker 1: in this thing because he's gonna have a flail chest. 708 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,240 Speaker 1: He shows up at the hospital, he lasts for forty minutes. 709 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that he would have had an awareness. 710 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: I think that the pain and suffering here, to put 711 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:15,280 Speaker 1: it in legal terms, is just unbelievable. Unbelievable, the havoc 712 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: and the hell that has been wrought upon the Sport family. 713 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: To Dr Brian Russell, host of Investigation Discoveries, Fatal Vowel series, 714 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: a big hit for I D. Lawyer and psychologist Dr Brian, 715 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: what was the thinking behind an attack like this? It 716 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: was clearly premeditated. It is so purely psychopathic and there's 717 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: no reason other than somebody enjoying the havoc that they're 718 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: wreaking on other people's lives. It is so psychopathic that 719 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: you you may think I'm being barbaric here. But if 720 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: we find out who did this, death by stoning is 721 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: too good of a punishment. And I'm serious that we 722 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: have to make that level of statement as a society 723 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: that we will not tolerate this kind of behavior in 724 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: this country. Because this is not the first one of 725 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: these this year. There was one already earlier this year 726 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: where a father of several kids and husband was killed 727 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 1: and they did catch the perpetrators of that allegedly who 728 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: are teenagers, and guess what they're charged with second degree murder? 729 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: Why in the hell is its second degree. As you said, 730 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 1: this is absolutely premeditated. This is within a few feet 731 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: of the main route of the Rose Bowl Parade, and 732 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: there are not I I know this area well, there 733 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: are not homeless people who live in that immediate facility. 734 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 1: But it's a really nice area and the Rose Bowl 735 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 1: Parade just a few feet away. So where does the 736 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: case stand right now, Paul Chamber. They're waiting for someone 737 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 1: to respond to the offer of thousand dollar reward for information. 738 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,000 Speaker 1: I think you would that would probably be the best 739 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 1: hope at getting some additional information on who might have 740 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: done this horrible crime. And a lesson in this is 741 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: look up at every overpass. I've done this for years. Um, 742 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: when I when I'm driving, I look up at every 743 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: single overpass because I've just heard about too many of 744 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: these and and it's awful that you have to do 745 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,480 Speaker 1: that in the United States of America. But when you're 746 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: teaching your kids to drive, I mean, obviously they don't 747 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: want to take their eyes off the road for too 748 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 1: long either, but uh, you know, unfortunately, uh, you could 749 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: save your life by glancing up there. I'm just looking 750 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,800 Speaker 1: at their family photo. Joseph Scott Morgan. They look so happy. 751 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: There's a twenty thousand dollar reward in the case of 752 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 1: a young father killed by a boulder dropped onto the 753 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: highway someone throws a huge rock from a highway overpass. 754 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: The twenty thousand dollar reward offered for information leading to 755 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: every is responsible for this horrible murder of the young dad, 756 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: Christopher low Pass. He was in the passenger seat when 757 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:14,440 Speaker 1: a thirty plus pound rock crashes through his windshield, crushing 758 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,720 Speaker 1: his chest. It is believed by authorities the highway patrol 759 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 1: someone purposefully through this large boulder from the Orange Grove 760 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:31,400 Speaker 1: Boulevard overpass. It's over Route one freeway. The pregnant wife 761 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: immediately races to the hospital, but it was too late. 762 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: The four year old little girl was in the car 763 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,839 Speaker 1: when her dad is murdered. The mom making an emotional plea. 764 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,839 Speaker 1: He is gone, she says, but I'm asking for your help. 765 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:53,360 Speaker 1: If anyone saw anything, please help us. There is a 766 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:59,720 Speaker 1: go fund Me campaign created to benefit those Christopher leaves behind, 767 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,880 Speaker 1: including trying to pay for his funeral and for everything 768 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 1: the baby will need. I'm just just stunned by this. 769 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,560 Speaker 1: Um Alan. Do you have a tip line number? Yes, Nancy. 770 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,400 Speaker 1: The California Highway Patrol says if you have information about 771 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,480 Speaker 1: this incident that happened on March, you can call them 772 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: at six to six two zero zero six two six 773 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,640 Speaker 1: eight one zero zero. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off 774 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: goodbye for him