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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morton. Most folks out there

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Speaker 1: know me as a death investigator. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: if you ever see me pop up on any of

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Speaker 1: these television platforms or even on a podcast somewhere, they'll

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Speaker 1: say death investigator Joseph Scott Morton. But you know, there's

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Speaker 1: actually a bit more to me other than that. From

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Speaker 1: a professional standpoint, At this point in my life, I

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Speaker 1: have spent as much time now in academia as I

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Speaker 1: did as a death investigator. So you can call me

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Speaker 1: a death investigator if you want, But I'm also a

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Speaker 1: professor and right now I teach at Jacksonville State University

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Speaker 1: in Jacksonville, Alabama. I've been here for just over a decade.

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Speaker 1: The one thing that motivated me to start this podcast,

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Speaker 1: Bodybags is there's a need for people to receive an

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Speaker 1: education in forensics, at least at a baseline. And considering that,

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Speaker 1: I know that I have been infinitely blessed with the

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Speaker 1: circumstances in my life and with the opportunities I've had.

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Speaker 1: So with that spirit in mind, this is going to

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Speaker 1: mark the first in an ongoing series of let's just

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Speaker 1: say it, an introduction to forensic science, and I want

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Speaker 1: to offer this up to all of our listeners as

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Speaker 1: kind of a peak behind the curtain and maybe, just

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Speaker 1: maybe you'll come away with more of an understanding of

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Speaker 1: my world and the world of forensic science. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks Dave. To start off,

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Speaker 1: I have to say I got to confess a bit

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Speaker 1: of I want to make a confession here. When I

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Speaker 1: started off as a young man, I was let's see,

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Speaker 1: how can I say it? I was compelled, motivated by

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Speaker 1: envy and jealousy. And here's what I mean by that.

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Speaker 1: After I got into the field, and mind you, I

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Speaker 1: was uneducated. I came into my field and had no education. Literally,

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Speaker 1: starting from a matter of fact confession here, I was

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Speaker 1: working on an associate's degree when I first started. I

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Speaker 1: hadn't finished it yet. But I happened to be in

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Speaker 1: the right place the right time. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: what day it happened on, but I suddenly found myself

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Speaker 1: surrounded by people that had a lot of letters after

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Speaker 1: their names, and I knew that not only did I

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Speaker 1: have to have practical validation in my field. I'm not

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Speaker 1: talking about law enforcement here, I'm talking about in forensic science.

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Speaker 1: I had to have academic validation because, let's face it,

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Speaker 1: if you go to sit on a stand and you

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Speaker 1: claim that you're a forensic practitioner and you're not degreed, necessarily,

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Speaker 1: there will be questions that will be asked, well, why

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Speaker 1: didn't you ever think it was important enough to get

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Speaker 1: a degree? The cool thing about it is I had

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Speaker 1: people that were all around me at that point in

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Speaker 1: time that encouraged me. As dark as it got, as

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Speaker 1: hard as it was, I had people that were around

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Speaker 1: me that would push me. And so couple that motivation

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Speaker 1: from that perspective and then the motivation of jealousy and

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Speaker 1: envy warning those things that I did not have, I

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Speaker 1: wound up in a position where I began to teach.

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Speaker 1: It started out when I was still working at the

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Speaker 1: Medical Examiner. I'd go to police academies and I do

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Speaker 1: seminars and teach that way. But then the bug really

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Speaker 1: bit me. I loved being in a classroom, and I

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Speaker 1: loved taking all of that knowledge coupled with the horrible

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Speaker 1: things that I'd worn witness to and trying to impart that.

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Speaker 1: So you and I have been in ongoing discussions for

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Speaker 1: a while now, and I thank you for your encouragement

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Speaker 1: in this because I think that it's a worthy pursuit

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Speaker 1: on our part and I want to be able to teach.

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Speaker 1: I want this to be kind of the opening salvo,

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Speaker 1: if you will, as we start out on this journey together.

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Speaker 1: My friend.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting the way you approach this job

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Speaker 2: as an educational thing, and it really comes from the

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Speaker 2: fact that in the last couple of years, as forensics

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Speaker 2: has become more of a player in terms of covering

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Speaker 2: crime stories, not just within say, the world of Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 2: but beyond that. You're on TV on networks almost on

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Speaker 2: a nightly basis because people are interested in the forensics

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Speaker 2: of crime and how they're used to solve crimes. And

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Speaker 2: I think it's partly due to television, it's partly due

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Speaker 2: to just the education of crime and the interests that

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Speaker 2: there is. But there's a constant thing that keeps popping

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Speaker 2: up that the uneducated in all of us, that we

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Speaker 2: don't know the difference between terms the manner and cause

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Speaker 2: of death. When we hear these things spoken about, they

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Speaker 2: don't mean it doesn't mean something very specific but to

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Speaker 2: the delay person, but they all mean something totally different

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Speaker 2: and you and you've actually I've covered stories with you

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Speaker 2: when you went that's not even right. What they're saying

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Speaker 2: on this network program is not correct terminology. They're different things.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's important before people open their mouths

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Speaker 2: about something as important as forensics, about death and about

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Speaker 2: studying crimes, that you better know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you do, And I listen. I've been caught by people,

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Speaker 1: you know, where I will misspeak about something or uh,

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Speaker 1: you know. And and of course the world is is

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Speaker 1: uh is full of critics. I can't remember. There's a

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Speaker 1: famous uh, there's a famous quote by Teddy Roosevelt about

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Speaker 1: critic critics and he's arguably my favorite favorite president of

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Speaker 1: all time, Teddy Roosevelt. And and it was something to

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Speaker 1: the effect that, you know, being a critic really doesn't

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Speaker 1: take that much effort, you know, And doesn't that sound

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Speaker 1: like something he would say?

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Speaker 2: It?

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Speaker 1: Does it?

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Speaker 2: You know what, anybody can be a critic. Anybody can

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Speaker 2: claim as a career I'm a writer really had been published,

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Speaker 2: not yet, but I'm really.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you write?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 2: You know you can just claim things without proving it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, you're right. I blush when people refer

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Speaker 1: to me as an author and I've written one book.

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Speaker 1: I've participated in other books, but I've written one book

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Speaker 1: and people will say, well, I'm an author, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I kind of shy away from that because there are

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Speaker 1: people that are out there that have written copious volumes

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Speaker 1: of work out there that you know, are truly authors.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is their craft, it is their profession.

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Speaker 1: It's not what do they say, it's not a hobby.

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Speaker 1: It is in fact a vocation. So with that said,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you what is not merely a hobby

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Speaker 1: for me, and that is forensics and delving into that world.

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Speaker 1: And one more little aside that that I love about

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Speaker 1: forensics is this, it is an applied science. It's not theoretical. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are theoretical elements that are involved in all pursuits.

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Speaker 1: In forensics, you know, you begin to think about chemistry

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Speaker 1: and physics and biology, the three big ones, of course,

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Speaker 1: and you can take elements from that theoretical science and

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Speaker 1: apply it to solving crime. And there's a direct application.

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Speaker 1: And I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again.

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Speaker 1: How many folks in the sound of my voice recall

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Speaker 1: when you were in high school and you walked into

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Speaker 1: a chemistry lab for the first time, and you said,

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Speaker 1: you're going to take chemistry if it was one of

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Speaker 1: your requirements. In my school, it was a requirement, and

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Speaker 1: I literally thought the teacher was speaking gibberish, like a

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Speaker 1: made up language the first day. I think I was

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Speaker 1: in the ninth or tenth grade. Biology kind of be

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Speaker 1: easy to understand, but when you start to thinking about chemistry,

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Speaker 1: for instance, it's so it's not very tangible. You know,

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Speaker 1: they try to make it tangible by giving you those

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Speaker 1: molecular models. You remember those, and certainly you conduct experiments,

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Speaker 1: but you know just to But when you look at

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Speaker 1: crime science and you think about perhaps taking that application

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Speaker 1: of chemistry and applying it to drug analysis, that opens

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Speaker 1: up a completely different world where you're able to look

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Speaker 1: at a substance and you might think that it's cocaine

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Speaker 1: or it could be baby powder for all you know.

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Speaker 1: But that actually had a.

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Speaker 2: Case in Georgia where a woman spent time in jail

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Speaker 2: while they were they tested cotton candy and came back

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Speaker 2: as meth, and the woman lost everything, kids got taken

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Speaker 2: away and turned out it was cotton candy. Right, and

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Speaker 2: that happened in the last five years. We're not talking

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Speaker 2: one hundred years ago. We're talking in the last five years.

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Speaker 2: Somebody messed up forensics so bad the woman lost everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that's been something a through line. Also

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Speaker 1: in the DNA world, there been I know one case

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Speaker 1: that's up in New England maybe Massachusetts. Lady was participating

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Speaker 1: in something called dry labbing and it was because she

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Speaker 1: relative to DNA and she essentially took samples and was

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Speaker 1: running them through the process without actually running them through

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Speaker 1: the prescribed process. And there were people that went to

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Speaker 1: jail as a result. And she's now I think if

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Speaker 1: she's not in state prison, she's in federal prison. And

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Speaker 1: those cases are thrown out. And you know, that's why

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Speaker 1: you have to you have to understand the basic science

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Speaker 1: and you have to understand form and function. So with

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Speaker 1: that said, I really would like to begin to address

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Speaker 1: some of these topics along the way. I think that

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Speaker 1: we'll do probably one per week, and you know, reach

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Speaker 1: out to us on social media. You can find me

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and an x and now on Facebook to

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Speaker 1: a certain degree. If you have a suggestion for not cases,

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Speaker 1: but what would you like us to kind of tackle

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Speaker 1: relative to forensic practice, and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Going to step further. I've had a lot of people

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Speaker 2: reach out via Facebook. I'll use Facebook because devenant with you.

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Speaker 2: I had other stuff going on, mess with all the others,

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Speaker 2: and I know I should and I'm gonna work harder

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Speaker 2: at it. Blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: I don't want you to work harder at it. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: if I get on X, I feel like I need

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Speaker 1: to take my brain out and scrub it with comment

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Speaker 1: I always do. It's just so cool of humanity. Most

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Speaker 1: of the time.

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Speaker 2: Those of you who have reached out to us, and

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Speaker 2: we have followed up with a couple of you on

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Speaker 2: different and we're working on one now. I had to

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Speaker 2: put some things off to the side due to some

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Speaker 2: personal issues, but we're back into the swing of these.

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Speaker 2: And if you've got something that you want to send,

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Speaker 2: please do but in particular, and this is something I

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Speaker 2: was so glad you wanted to address show because manner

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Speaker 2: cause mechanism, all right, yeah to me, I look at

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Speaker 2: that and I'm just just blow you know, they all

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Speaker 2: are very dramatically different when you break it down and

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Speaker 2: you're trying to talk about intelligently crime solving. I remember

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Speaker 2: back and I told you this before, and it was

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Speaker 2: the Wayne Williams trial, the Atlanta child killing trial that

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Speaker 2: got my attention because it was one of the first,

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Speaker 2: if not the first, one of the first that used

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Speaker 2: fiber analysis to a huge degree. With the carpet fibers

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Speaker 2: that tied Nathaniel Cater to Wayne Williams to the trunk

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Speaker 2: of his car, I believe was Cater. But then I

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Speaker 2: found out who the actual fiber guy was and where

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Speaker 2: he got his degree, and that for me changed everything. Now,

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Speaker 2: you just said when you started this, you were working

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Speaker 2: on an associate's degree when you started the death investigation process.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: That's what you said?

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Speaker 2: How does that happen? I'm not trying to divert where

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Speaker 2: we're headed, but I needed to know you were in it.

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Speaker 2: What were you in a hear associates program for that

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Speaker 2: led you down this.

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Speaker 1: Path criminal justice in biology? And that's how that's how

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Speaker 1: it started out. Yeah, yeah, wow, Yeah. And I knew

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Speaker 1: that I'd always had a fascination with science, and of

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Speaker 1: course I love the law. Come from a family that

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Speaker 1: has a lot of lawyers in it, and at one

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Speaker 1: point time I thought that I wanted to do to

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Speaker 1: become a lawyer at one point time, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: because I had this huge passion for the law. Thank god,

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Speaker 1: my uncle, who is quite famous in his own right

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Speaker 1: relative to being a jurist, talked me out of it. Actually,

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Speaker 1: he tried to talk to me into medical school. And

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Speaker 1: he's like, as a matter of fact that he had

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Speaker 1: said at one point in time, if you got to

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Speaker 1: law school, I'll never speak to you again. And this

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Speaker 1: is a guy that was well learned. He's actually taught

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Speaker 1: at the National Judges Academy at in Reno for many

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Speaker 1: years to teach new judges.

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Speaker 3: That's that's how highly thought of he was to Because

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Speaker 3: your family is saying lawyer, doctor, mine was saying, Dave,

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Speaker 3: if you can't play sport ravish shovel, that's all you got.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, you know, probably I've probably learned more

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Speaker 1: from people that are non degreed than I have from

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Speaker 1: those that are degreed. And here's why. The beauty of

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Speaker 1: forensic science, like I said earlier, is an applied science.

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Speaker 1: It's something practical that you can put your hands on,

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Speaker 1: you can hold it, you can begin to understand it,

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Speaker 1: and it's not too much different than a trade. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, just a little insight. Even in

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Speaker 1: the world of forensics, if you have a master's in

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Speaker 1: forensic science and you want to be a ballistics expert,

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Speaker 1: for instance, did you know that even with a graduate degree,

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Speaker 1: you're still going to have to be in a print

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Speaker 1: ship just like the old times and sit at the

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Speaker 1: feet of a master. There are certain determinations in the

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Speaker 1: medical legal community that we are tasked with making, and

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of how someone died and how we're

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Speaker 1: going to categorize that and try to understand, try to

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Speaker 1: understand literally how it happened. We're going to start off there, okay,

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Speaker 1: because a subset of that is human identification, which is

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Speaker 1: one of our mandates. But we're going to save that

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Speaker 1: lecture for another time. But I think that it's very important, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that we start off on this road that we often

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Speaker 1: hear talked about in the news, and that is kind

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Speaker 1: of the first, the first major stop along the way

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Speaker 1: when it comes to death investigation. That's a manner of death.

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Speaker 1: There are several cases that are that are in the news.

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Speaker 1: One in particular, Oh God, I hate even saying this

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Speaker 1: woman's name, Karen Reid. I've spent many hours covering this,

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Speaker 1: particularly on Court TV, and you know, shout out to

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Speaker 1: my friend vinniepolitan uh and now thanks for the opportunities

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Speaker 1: that I've had. But it's it's rather tedious. But when

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Speaker 1: it comes down to it and you look at Karen Reid,

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Speaker 1: the case is not about Karen Reid. The case, for

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Speaker 1: me is actually about John O'Keefe, Okay, Boston police officer.

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Speaker 1: He is discovered unresponsive, I think, essentially dead in the snow,

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Speaker 1: and he's got some pretty significant trauma. But you know, Dave,

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Speaker 1: they have charged and that is the prosecution the state.

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Speaker 1: They've charged Karen Reid, of course, with I think it's

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Speaker 1: like vehicular homicide. In other words, they're saying that she

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Speaker 1: is responsible for his death just because a prosecutor charges

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Speaker 1: someone with homicide or murder. And it depends on the

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Speaker 1: statute how it's written in each state. Like for instance, Georgia,

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Speaker 1: our neighbor here, they don't refer to homicide and the

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Speaker 1: law they refer to it as murder. Talk about malice,

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Speaker 1: murder and all those sorts of things over there. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, you're talking about death

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Speaker 1: at the hand of another. Well, just because the prosecutor

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Speaker 1: says that this is a homicide, that don't mean the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner is going to call it that, all right?

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Speaker 1: And this particularly you see a big party in the

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Speaker 1: ways in this world when it comes to motor vehicle

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Speaker 1: accidents for instance. Okay, but here's the hang up with

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Speaker 1: John O'Keeffe's death. The medical examiner in his case could

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Speaker 1: not even call his death an accident. And this is

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Speaker 1: going back to when they made their final ruling, goes

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Speaker 1: back to twenty twenty three. Okay, they could not even

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Speaker 1: make a final ruling of accident or homicide. They actually

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Speaker 1: left his manner of death as undetermined essentially, do you see?

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Speaker 1: And I know that's confusing.

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Speaker 2: It is no a bit, it's a lot confusing. I

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Speaker 2: assumed wrongly that you do the autopsy, you take all

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Speaker 2: the circumstances into play, and you're able to determine what happened,

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Speaker 2: how did this person end up dead? So the manner

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Speaker 2: of death? What what are we actually talking about with

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Speaker 2: manner of death?

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Speaker 1: Okay? I want everybody in their in their mind's eye

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Speaker 1: right now to envision a gigantic umbrella. And you know

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Speaker 1: how umbrellas have those little ribs, you know, like the

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Speaker 1: little metal ribs that hold hold up well, I have

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Speaker 1: something that's called the Morgan, the Morgan Umbrella of death,

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Speaker 1: all right, And each one of those little ribs we

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Speaker 1: have five. So under each rib of the umbrella you

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Speaker 1: have homicide, suicide, accident, natural, and undetermined. And it's beneath

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Speaker 1: that umbrella that we begin to try to marry up

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Speaker 1: causal factors relative to death, to try to determine how

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Speaker 1: we're going to classify, how we're going to classify death

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Speaker 1: and try to understand it and categorize it. This comes

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Speaker 1: into play obviously in the criminal justice system. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you another big area where this comes into play.

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Speaker 1: And people don't think about this, okay, because you have

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Speaker 1: to understand something. And I'm not just specifically saying you

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Speaker 1: have to understand something, my friend. Everybody has to understand this.

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Speaker 1: What the medical legal community does is it is not.

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Speaker 1: In fact, we're not in the business of merely serving

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Speaker 1: the criminal justice system, Okay. We're also in the business

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Speaker 1: of serving people involved in civil courts as well. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, a goodly amount of the work

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Speaker 1: that we do is demonstrated in civil courts and I'll

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Speaker 1: give you the best example. You have someone that has

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Speaker 1: a certain type of insurance policy, for instance, and certain

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Speaker 1: manners of death will not pay out. Okay, but if

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Speaker 1: it's an accident, then you get double the amount. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Do you see how there's like the big big money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the movie Double Indemned it. You know, so you've

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Speaker 1: got you know, big big money that's involved. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, And I'll give you a little insight

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Speaker 1: from the medical examiner's world. And this has happened countless occasions,

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Speaker 1: and it's very sad, and people don't hear about this

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Speaker 1: very much. I've had wives that have shown up at

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Speaker 1: the medical Examiner's office and they'll have stacks and reams

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Speaker 1: of paper day, wanting to get an audience with at

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Speaker 1: least an investigator, hopefully the medical examiners themselves, and they're

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Speaker 1: in tears. And they're in tears because we have yet

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Speaker 1: to rule a manner on a death and because they

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Speaker 1: can't get funds released. And I'm sure that there are

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Speaker 1: many people in sond of my voice that can identify

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Speaker 1: having to deal with insurance companies about this because the

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Speaker 1: death has yet to be classified. I've had I've set

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Speaker 1: across the table from people that were going to have

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Speaker 1: their homes were closed on. I had one lady I

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Speaker 1: remember distinctly, had already had her car repossessed, and the

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Speaker 1: electricity had been cut off twice in our home, and

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Speaker 1: she did not have a job. She was sole dependent

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Speaker 1: on her husband, and they had a rather robust, robust

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Speaker 1: insurance policy and it hadn't been paid out, and she

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Speaker 1: was living a hand of mouth existence. So there's a

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Speaker 1: lot more to this than merely you know, what you

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Speaker 1: might see in true crime, you know where we're trying

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Speaker 1: to make these determinations like that. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: this goes into, as you well mentioned, what kind of

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Speaker 1: history can we get about the event? Well, if you

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Speaker 1: look at John O'Keefe and his death, what do we

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Speaker 1: understand about that scene and how his death came about?

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Speaker 1: Is there an enough information and has it been effectively

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Speaker 1: relayed to the state medical examiner they're in Massachusetts so

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Speaker 1: that they can make a determination about what they're seeing.

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Speaker 1: Keep in mind, you're not pitching this to a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: A lawyer has this massive canon of law that they

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Speaker 1: can choose from. We've only got five of the manners

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Speaker 1: of death, so we have to have enough information, and

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Speaker 1: plus you're talking to somebody that is of a scientific mind.

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Speaker 1: If it does not make sense to them logically, then

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Speaker 1: they will not move forward. One of the most difficult

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Speaker 1: cases I think for and I've been involved in a

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Speaker 1: couple of these over the years, for a medical examiner

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Speaker 1: to make a determination many times is Russian Roulette cases

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Speaker 1: because you can go down that road and it's like

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Speaker 1: one of the toughest colleges. I got to tell you this,

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Speaker 1: one of the toughest college courses I ever took as

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Speaker 1: an undergrad was logic. Aside from chemistry classes and everything else,

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Speaker 1: I hated logic and essentially you're sitting there working on proofs,

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Speaker 1: doing word problems. God bless all the philosophers out there,

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Speaker 1: because it is a tough class. I was happy to

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Speaker 1: take a sea in that class, very happy. But when

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Speaker 1: you begin to go down this road of logically what

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Speaker 1: logically makes sense here, you can get off into the

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Speaker 1: weeds relative to relative to something like Russian Roulette. And

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Speaker 1: it's actually something I do with my students at Jacksonville State.

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Speaker 1: I will tell them, Okay, we're going to pretend that

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Speaker 1: we're all medical examiners today, you're a corner. I have

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Speaker 1: to get them out of the mind of pretending that

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Speaker 1: they're a police officer. And we'll go down this road

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Speaker 1: and I'll give them a scenario and I kind of

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Speaker 1: tell I'll tell you what it is real. Briefly, you

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Speaker 1: got three guys. One guy says, hey, my grandpa as

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Speaker 1: a retired police officer. He left me his revolver. And

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Speaker 1: he says to the other two, do you want to

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Speaker 1: see it? They've been drinking as well. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to see it? And they say yeah enthusiastically. Then one

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Speaker 1: guy says, you got any bullets, Let's load it up

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Speaker 1: and let's only put one bullet in it. And then

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Speaker 1: one guy says, let's play a game. So they sit

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Speaker 1: down with the knowledge in mind that there is a

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Speaker 1: certain risk of lethality here, and they spin the weapon

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Speaker 1: and they go through the whole process, and of course

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Speaker 1: one winds up nine. You would be surprised, you might

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Speaker 1: be shocked. I've got to have you. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: have you come to my class, Dave, so that you

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Speaker 1: can bear witness to this, because I do this exercise

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Speaker 1: every semester with my medical legal class. You'd be surprised.

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Speaker 1: How the classroom breaks down as to what they would

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Speaker 1: rule the manner of death of as in a case

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Speaker 1: of Russian Roulette. It's amazing, you know, are you going

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Speaker 1: to rule it as a homicide? Is it in act

407
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Speaker 1: a suicide? Is it an accidental event? Or is it undetermined?

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Speaker 1: I've actually had a few people say, well it was

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Speaker 1: natural I don't know. One person in the back shout

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Speaker 1: out natural selection, and so I you know, you know

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Speaker 1: it was me. So I'm going to have you come

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Speaker 1: to class just so that you if any of our

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Speaker 1: friends out there are curious asking you to bear witness

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Speaker 1: to this, you can actually kind of see the numbers

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Speaker 1: and how. And I do it with undergraduate classes and

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Speaker 1: I do it with police academy classes as well when

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Speaker 1: I'm teaching them about death investigation, because you have to

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Speaker 1: have enough confirmatory scientific information to move forward. And does

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Speaker 1: it fit within the parameters of what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: And let's just run through the mannor real quick.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you, Yeah, sure that Nextes and O's

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Speaker 2: Joe more than just Xtors and O's. I mean, what

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Speaker 2: if I'm playing Devil's advocate here, at least you've got

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Speaker 2: in your scenario what if my goal was I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to kill you off, and I've got us all drinking,

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Speaker 2: and now I've got the gun and I'm the one

427
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Speaker 2: pushing this whole thing, and I'm gearing it up, and

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Speaker 2: then you know, my goal was to have you dead.

429
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Speaker 2: And you play a long boom, you shoot yourself in

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Speaker 2: the head. The other guy goes, man, Dave was really

431
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Speaker 2: working that hard. Hey man, you're the one, you know,

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Speaker 2: does that come into play? Do you have time with

433
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,239
Speaker 2: police or investigators that they sit down and hey man,

434
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 2: we found out some information that might have to do

435
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: with this or is this purely no?

436
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: No, no, that's a that's a good point because lots of

437
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: times we'll do this exercise from the perspective of the

438
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: medical examiner conintok cold and not having a lot of

439
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: input from police. Now if the medical and this is

440
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: a great example, let's just say, John O'Keefe, what kind

441
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: of data did they show up with to try to

442
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: because listen to prosecutor in that case, they would really

443
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 1: prefer for the medical examiner to rule this as a homicide.

444
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: It just kind of bolsters their case. What did you

445
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: show up with? And you know, you get into the

446
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: to the eye word again. You know, you start to

447
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: think about intent. Sometimes it's referred to as specific intent,

448
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: and that plays into a little bit of a to

449
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: what we do. But our ruling and our view of

450
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: things in the medical legal world is so desperately different

451
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: from what the legal eagles do. Yeah, if they came

452
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: to us with that information, we've developed something that he

453
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: said outside of what we saw at the scene. Yeah,

454
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: watch this tonight. I want to get rid of both

455
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: these guys and this well that that would certainly give

456
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: us pause. But if we have no other information, then

457
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: every medical examiner is going to view this as what

458
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: can I prove scientifically? And Dave, one more thing I

459
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: want to say about this is that amazing amazingly medical

460
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: examiners split on this topic, just like the students do.

461
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: And that's something so you will not You can go

462
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: to a variety of different medical examiners, you can put

463
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: them in a room and let's just say it was

464
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: a silent ballot, because nobody likes to look like they're

465
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: on the outside. If you if you just threw it

466
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: to them, of course, they've always got to debate one another.

467
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: That's one of the things they'd love to do when

468
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: they get together. But if you could just do it silently,

469
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: you'd be surprised how this breaks out. But at the

470
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: end of the day, you have to have enough information

471
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: to call this manner of death a certain thing, and

472
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: many times we're left wanting, as are many families. So

473
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: we have manner considered at this moment, Tom, how are

474
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: we going to rule it? Remember we've only got five choices.

475
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, if you refer back to

476
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: that imagery that I gave you of the umbrella, when

477
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: it comes to a term that many people have heard

478
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: for years now, it's the term cause of death. The

479
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: cause of death and manner death are so desperately different.

480
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: So when we consider manner and cause of death, I

481
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: would argue that probably causal factors are more easily arrived

482
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: at than manner of death because you've got a limited

483
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: number of categories you can put any death into. But

484
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: I can observe something and say, well, this is the

485
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: causal factor in an individual's death. I'll give you, for instance,

486
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: gunshot one of the head. Okay, well, the cause of

487
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: death that's going to be a gunshot one of the head. Okay,

488
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: Now you think about remember the umbrella. I talked about

489
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: how many different of those categories under the umbrella of death. Well,

490
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: gunshot one of the head fit under. Okay, we've got

491
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: what's the most obvious one. I think probably suicide, self inflicted.

492
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: We've got homicide, We've got accident. Although anytime someone, as

493
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: an investigator tells me this is an accidental shooting, my

494
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: eyebrow goes up as high as it possibly can. You know,

495
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to police officers and people in

496
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: the military that have had a familiarity with weapons. I'm

497
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: going to take a long, hard look at that, and

498
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: then you do have undetermined events. So gunshot one of

499
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: the head is it's kind of straightforward, but there are

500
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: other things that come into play. And I got to

501
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: tell you one the biggest bugaboos recently that has really

502
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: is real burr underneath my saddle is this Virginia Roberts Jeffrey.

503
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: Because it seems like anybody out there that has the

504
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: ability to sling ink on a newspaper has been saying

505
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: her cause of death was a suicide. I can show

506
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: you article after article after article after article. Well, let

507
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: me pause one second here and just say, you're a

508
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: bunch of idiots. Did you get that last line? You're

509
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: an idiot because suicide is not her cause of death.

510
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: That's a manner of death. And still to this day,

511
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: the territorial coroner has yet to give us the call

512
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: death at the time of this taping. Okay, we don't know.

513
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: What we do know about about her case is that

514
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: it has apparently been ruled the manner has been ruled

515
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 1: as a suicide. But that's not the cause of death.

516
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: So you get hung up in this kind of and

517
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,239
Speaker 1: it's not really a word salad. There aren't a lot

518
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: of words involved here. It's rather simplistic. You know. If

519
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: you look at the law, it's highly complex. But when

520
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: it comes to manner and cause of death, you think

521
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: about her and you think about you know, and it

522
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: makes you wonder, well, what could have brought about her death? Well,

523
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: they're limitless, you know. If they're saying that this is suicide, which,

524
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: by the way, suicide is defined as death at one's

525
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: own hand. And as you notice in that definition, which

526
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: is the actual definition that she used in medical legal circles,

527
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: death that one's on hand says nothing about intent because

528
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: intent is generally something that's left up to the legal

529
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: side of the House to prove. We don't have to

530
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 1: prove that. Now, it might influence us if they say

531
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: they've been intending to do this or they have talked

532
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: about it will factor that in. But our definition is

533
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: death that one's on hand. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and

534
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: this is bodybacks