1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, Guyana's vice president, Baratcha Gayo was 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: asked to speak at the oil and gas industry's biggest 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: annual conference, Cambridge Energy Research Associates Executive Conference. It's put 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: on by S and P Global and everyone calls it 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: Sarah week at. 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: It's my understanding, this is the fastest offshore oil development 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: in history. 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 3: How did it happen? 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: Well, we support that vision, a fast baced development of 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: the resources offshore, particularly in the context of net zero. 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: We believe it's a wide strategy to do as much 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 2: exploration as possible, now prove the resources, and then have 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: them removed and transfer into financial assets that in the 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: future can serve to transform the country. 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: Particularly in the context of net zero. Let's get fat 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: oil out and sold as quickly as possible. Net zero 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: was meant to be a goal for companies and governments 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: to work towards in emissions reduction target, not an incentive 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: too fast track oil and gas production. But Jagdeo is 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: putting into plane words there what the fossil fuel industry's 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: approach to net zero has been all along, despite a 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: whole lot of slickly produced ads to the contrary get 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: as much oil out of the ground and sold before 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: it's too late. 25 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 4: Ghana is emblematic of what we are seeing in countries 26 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 4: around the world. It's emblematic this broader wave of extractive 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 4: colonialism that is playing out in frontier countries across the 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 4: global South. 29 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: Carol Muffett, President and CEO of the Center for International 30 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: Environmental Law, has worked with Melinda Jinki, the attorney we 31 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: heard from earlier this season. 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 4: Countries that don't have a history or any significant history 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 4: of oil and gas development or oil and gas dependence 34 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 4: are being pushed into that dependence. 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: That push tends to include swift backlash to any opposition. 36 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 4: When people on the ground speak out against that development, 37 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 4: when they ask difficult questions, when they ask why is 38 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 4: this investment happening, what are the risks? What is really 39 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 4: in this for the people of our country. They come 40 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 4: under profound political pressure, they come under social and economic 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 4: pressure you and they are criminalized and intimidated. 42 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 5: Sometimes the pressure is just in the form of financial 43 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 5: incentives or brigging the system in a particular direction. 44 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 4: It's important to right noize God is a very small country, 45 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 4: and that means that the universe of people with expertise 46 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 4: in any given domain is also going to be comparatively small. 47 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 4: I think that means that for an actor like Exam, 48 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 4: it is really surprisingly easy and probably highly cost effective 49 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 4: to identify those people and to take them of the 50 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 4: equation one way or now, whether it's by offering them 51 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 4: grants and donations, whether it's offering them jobs. 52 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: That's true of journalists as well. When Keanu Wilberg first 53 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: started covering the oil and gas beat for Kyter News, 54 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: she had five colleagues working on the desk with her. 55 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: Now it's just her. The others were all hired away 56 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: by the government or the oil companies. 57 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 6: While company's typical incentive is that you get a car, 58 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 6: and almost every young journalist sees that as a very 59 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 6: good incentive to. 60 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 7: Switch. And I think also there's. 61 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 6: This sort of esteem these very sexy titles corporate public 62 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 6: and governance affairs, liaison for exemobile or snock or whats not. 63 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 6: There's an appeal to these titles. If I did not 64 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 6: see the need for staying and serving in my capacity, 65 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 6: I would have been gone to because I was offered 66 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 6: multiple times. 67 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 5: So far in Guyana, the oil companies are sponsoring cricket 68 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 5: making big donations to all of the environmental organizations that 69 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 5: might have been opposed to oil, and hiring journalists away 70 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 5: from newsrooms. Sometimes shutting down opposition is as easy as 71 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 5: just offering people a higher salary, a big donation, or 72 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 5: a free car. The critics who remain have to be 73 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 5: willing to withstand negative political and social pressure. Here's Vice 74 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 5: President Jagdeo. 75 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: Again, the industry had some negatives at home because of 76 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: what is taking place globally, this push the net zero. 77 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: We have a lot of NGOs that have descended on 78 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: the country, some saying don't leave the oil in the ground. 79 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: It's flawed. With ten FPSOs operating offshore, we will be 80 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: carbon negative. We're already carbon negative. Where the world is 81 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: hoping to get to in twenty fifty, we're already there. 82 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 2: Our force is bigger than England and Scotland combine, so 83 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: it's a huge sink and they're for we have a 84 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 2: balanced strategy to develop the oil and gas in the street. 85 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: This is something Jagdeo has been saying a lot lately 86 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: that even with ten FPSOs offshore, Guyana would still be 87 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: a carbon sink. It sounds like he's just making up 88 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: that ten pulling it out of the air, but it's 89 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: actually a reference to something specific. In twenty twenty two, 90 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: the government asked Exxon to include a new metric in 91 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: its environmental impact assessment for its latest drilling site. They 92 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: wanted the company to lay out what the accumulative impact 93 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: of all of its existing and proposed offshore activities would 94 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: be on the country's greenhouse gas emissions. It concluded that 95 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: even taking all of Exxon's biggest plans into account, the 96 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: country could have ten FPSOs offshore and still remain a 97 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: carbon sink. But and this is a really big but, 98 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: it calculated only the emissions generated by extraction and refinement, 99 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: not the emissions that come from the actual use of 100 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: that oil and gas. To put that in perspective, the 101 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: emissions associated with fossil fuels are about ninety percent how 102 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: you use them burning oil and gas, and about ten 103 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: percent how you got them to offset those operational emissions. 104 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: One of Axon's partners in the offshore oil project, Has 105 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: Corporation has made a big commitment. 106 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: The government of Guyana on Friday signed the first sale 107 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: agreement of its carbon credits to HASS cooperation at a 108 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 3: tune of US seven hundred and fifty The sale agreement, 109 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 3: which was signed on Friday State House, will support Guyana's 110 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: efforts to protect the country's vast forests and provide capitals 111 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: to improve the lives of Guyana's citizens. 112 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 5: With this sale, announced last December, Guyana became the first 113 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 5: country to receive and sell carbon credits under a new 114 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 5: UN program designed to protect forests called Trees. Trees is 115 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 5: part of the UN's Red Project, which stands for reducing 116 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 5: emissions from deforestation and forest degradation. It allows polluting companies 117 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 5: and governments to pay other groups and governments to offset 118 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 5: their carbon emissions. So remaining a carbon sinc isn't just 119 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 5: about greenwashing or promotion in Guyana. There's actual monetary value 120 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 5: to it too. 121 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 8: Carbon offsets basically just open up this window for emissions 122 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 8: to actually get worse, because you can claim to have 123 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 8: neutralized your greenhouse gas impact without actually having done so. 124 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: Katain Joshi is a writer and energy analyst and something 125 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: of an expert on carbon credits and carbon offsets. It's 126 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: hard to see how Guyana's carbon credits will pencil out 127 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: on the emissions front, especially because around the same time 128 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: that this program was announced. The government made another big announcement. 129 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: We've put an auction fourteen properties offshore. You can bid 130 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: on any of them. About the maximum that would be allocated, 131 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: would be per successful better. 132 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 7: The reason is. 133 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: That we want multiple companies there in Guyana exploring. 134 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 5: If you are constantly being criticized about one contract, sometimes 135 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 5: the best strategy is to throw fourteen new contracts in 136 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 5: the mix. Several oil majors paid the twenty five thousand 137 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 5: dollars fee required to enter the auction, that includes Chevron, 138 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 5: Shell and Yeah Exxon, but the auction has now been 139 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 5: postponed for several months, so we won't know until next 140 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 5: year whether any new companies will be drilling offshore. Which 141 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 5: brings us back to the question we've been grappling with 142 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 5: all season long. How do we tackle energy poverty and 143 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 5: the climate crisis at the same time when there's no 144 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 5: real money in either for oil companies. 145 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: For all they talk about it, and oil. 146 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 5: Companies do talk a lot about getting energy to poor people. 147 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 5: It's like their sole purpose in life these days. The 148 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 5: reality is that in most places where they're drilling for 149 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 5: oil and gas, it's being exported for profit, not used 150 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 5: to provide sustainable reliable energy for locals. Nigeria, a Global 151 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 5: South country that's been in the oil business since the fifties, 152 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 5: for example, is currently last in the world for energy access. 153 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 5: The simplest answer, but not the one that anyone in 154 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 5: the global North seems to like very much, is to 155 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 5: reduce energy demand in the global North to allow for 156 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 5: an increase in demand in the global South. But that 157 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 5: increase can't be to the excessive levels of say American 158 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 5: consumers today, who are wildly wasteful with energy. But getting 159 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 5: everyone to it, doctor Narasima Rau calls a decent living 160 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 5: level of energy would change the math considerably for fossil 161 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 5: fuel developments in places like Guyana. If you're a global 162 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 5: oil major and your product is oil and gas, you'd 163 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 5: prefer to just see demand a skyrocket everywhere, and that's 164 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 5: where things like carbon credits and carbon offsets can be 165 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 5: quite handy. They let people pretend they're reducing emissions, so 166 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 5: the incentive to reduce consumption disappears entirely. But while they 167 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 5: sound okay on paper, as does Jagdeo's creative math on 168 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 5: how Guyana can become a top oil producer and remain 169 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 5: a carbon sink, At the same time, none of it 170 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 5: changes how the atmosphere actually works, reducing the impact of 171 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 5: Guyana's oil industry on the global climate system. What actually 172 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 5: requires shutting down the industry elsewhere like Texas for example. 173 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 5: That's our story today. I'm Iman Westerbilt and this is 174 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 5: the last episode of our special Drilled and Damages co 175 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 5: Production Light Sweet Crude. 176 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: Stay with us. 177 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 9: I'm originally from Guyana. I as a teenager, I represented 178 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 9: Guyana at Cricket. I was in the first class of 179 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 9: engineers graduating from the University of Guyana, and then I migrated. 180 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 9: We went to school in the United States and worked 181 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 9: for for amac at time as a senior patroller engineer. 182 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 9: I'm a Colledsta British but Trillium. 183 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: Vincent Adams went from his job as a petroleum engineer 184 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: at Amaco to the United States Department of Energy, where 185 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: he worked for thirty years. 186 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 9: I ended up at the highest level of the United 187 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 9: States government as a senior executive of the US government 188 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 9: within the US Department of Energy. 189 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: And then he fully intended to retire. 190 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 9: My plan was to do my my voluntary service that 191 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 9: I was doing for Diana, right you know, I was 192 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 9: going to spend more time now in Diana that I 193 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 9: have the time to do that type of stuff. But 194 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 9: then a lot of my friends, you know, ministers and 195 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 9: the president you know, said please could you? So I said, okay. 196 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 9: The President himself at to obill how long? I said, 197 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 9: see if I you know, I've been planning for this 198 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 9: retirement for a long time. I've been counting the days. 199 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 9: Then I said, okay, I'll give you three years because 200 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 9: I figured by three years i'll set up all the 201 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 9: institutional systems and stuff like that. 202 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: As the previous president, David Granger. And the job is 203 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: a big one, updating Guyana's Environmental Protection Agency and starting 204 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: a petroleum oversay program there because after decades of looking, 205 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: the country had finally found oil. Unlike Melinda Jenki or 206 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: Troy Thomas, Adams was not overly concerned about the climate 207 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: implications of this discovery or with the industry moving quickly. 208 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: In fact, he sees it as necessary. 209 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 9: We have an opportunity to get rich, and we have 210 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 9: an envelope, a small envelope, to produce as much as 211 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 9: we get because the entire world is moving towards renewables. 212 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 5: But that doesn't mean he fully supports Exon's expansion into Guyana. 213 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 9: Exxon is doing it in a way that is very risky, 214 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 9: which is an absolute no no. 215 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: Adams has also said all along that Guyana should never 216 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: have had a production sharing agreement that complicate contract we 217 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: talked about early this season, and in both cases his 218 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: reasoning is the same. 219 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 9: We absolutely do not have We do not have the 220 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 9: capacity to do that. 221 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: When he was put in charge of Guyana's EPA, Adams 222 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: says the office didn't even have a filing system, let 223 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: alone a means to oversee major offshore oil production. By 224 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: collecting fees that had been due to the agency for years, 225 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: he was able to put some of those systems in place, 226 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: hire more people, and even buy the agency a few 227 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,119 Speaker 1: vehicles to allow EPA officials to check up on permitted projects. 228 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: His recommendation for the floating offshore production rigs was that 229 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: there should be an EPA official on those rigs overseeing operations. Similarly, 230 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to the contract, he says for a 231 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: country to make a production sharing agreement work, they need 232 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: to have the capacity to be regularly auditing costs. Diana 233 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: doesn't have either the oversight or the accounting capacity, so 234 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: Adam's recommended a more straightforward contract. 235 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 9: We should go for nothing more than just straight taxes 236 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 9: and royalty contract or what is called a concession type contract. 237 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 9: Give it a concession type contract, you know. Just to 238 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 9: put it very simply, all it is, if you produce 239 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 9: one hundred buyers of oil. I let's say I decide 240 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 9: to be the government decided to take of that quantity. 241 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 9: If you produce one hundred buyers of oil, I take 242 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 9: torture buyers and you take you get seventy. I don't 243 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 9: have to worry about cost or anything. All I would 244 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 9: need is some high school kid who can count barriers 245 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 9: as they're being produced. All I would need is a 246 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 9: mechanic or a good electrician to make sure that that 247 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 9: oil meter that measures the art it's running properly. I 248 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 9: don't need all these accountants and everybody. Now, of course, 249 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 9: that's putting it very very simplest giving. But that's the 250 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 9: difference in the magnitude of the oversight that you've got 251 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 9: to work. 252 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 5: With these production sharing agreements or PSAs they're not going away. 253 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 5: As it prepares to auction off more offshore drilling blocks 254 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 5: to global companies, Guyana has drafted a new and improved PSA. 255 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 5: Government officials claim it solves all the problems people had 256 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 5: with the Exxon contract, but Adam says the country is 257 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 5: no better equipped today to manage these complex contracts than 258 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 5: it was seven years ago. 259 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 9: Is there our companies by the way that the introduced 260 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 9: this PSA nonsense because it solves them, especially like Sandy, 261 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 9: know that a PSA is a nightmare for a country 262 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 9: such as Guyana to verified cause. 263 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: Adam says, the oil auction is a distraction, an attempt 264 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: to shift the public's attention away from any problems with 265 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: Exon and make it seem like the government is fast 266 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: tracking oil profits. 267 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 9: It's the biggest distraction that I've ever seen, which is 268 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 9: the motusoprande. This is right in the middle of jag 269 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 9: Diel's playbook. It's a distraction from this renegotiation state. So 270 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 9: now everybody are going to start talking about this new 271 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 9: model contract mechanism, Okay, And that's exactly where everybody are 272 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 9: right now. And even if you go ahead and look 273 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 9: at it, it's grossly it's to protect Exon. 274 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: Again. 275 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 9: I'm telling you, Exon is calling all of the shots 276 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 9: and running this country. 277 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 5: Exon, Chevron and shell all requested big packets for the auction, 278 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 5: and the government will announce next year which, if any, 279 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 5: have decided to move forward with offshore drilling projects outside 280 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 5: of the Starbuck Plan where Exon has staked its claim. 281 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 5: So far, even if there are no takers, Excels drilling 282 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 5: alone is set to make Guyana the world's largest oil 283 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 5: producer per capita in the world by twenty thirty five. 284 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 5: The country is on track to become a major gas 285 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 5: producer now as well, with a new pipeline and gas 286 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 5: plant set to begin construction this year. 287 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 9: Ye're producing six hundred million cubic feet of gas a 288 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 9: d Okay, you know how much we're going to be 289 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 9: using in that by. 290 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: Fifty Neither the government nor Exon has announced yet what 291 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: the plan is for excess gas, but it could easily 292 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: be sold on the global market, which brings us back 293 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: to that balancing act that doctor Narasima Rau mentioned a 294 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: couple of episodes ago. Is there a way to let 295 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: Guyana build as big an oil and gas industry as 296 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: it wants without exacerbating the global climate crisis. So far, 297 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: the answer to that question from the government of Guyana 298 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: is first that it's only responsible for its own emissions, 299 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: not for those associated with the oil and gas produced there, 300 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: which is exactly how everyone else in the world calculates emissions. 301 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: The United States, for example, likes to point out how 302 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: our emissions have been on the decline in recent decades. 303 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: So does the UK, so does the European Union. The 304 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: oil and gas produced by American, British and European companies 305 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: all over the world that doesn't count. Guyana's leaders have 306 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: also highlighted the country's leadership in forest conservation and consequently 307 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: the service that it provides to the world as a 308 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: carbon sink. And here again, yes, that does give it 309 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: a leg up on most other oil producing countries when 310 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: it comes to climate action. What then, is the answer, 311 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: Because what we've described in Guyana throughout this season is 312 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: not just happening there. Guyana's neighbors are also getting into 313 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: the oil business in a big way. Right next door 314 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: in Surinam, for example, Shell and Total Energies are regularly 315 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: announcing big new offshore discoveries. Barbados were Prime Minister Mia 316 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: Motley has become a global champion for climate action. It 317 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: had its own offshore auction right around the same time 318 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,959 Speaker 1: as Guyana's In Africa, new fossil fuel industries are springing 319 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: up in Tanzania, Uganda, Mozambique, Namibia and more, and the 320 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: global North is ramping up too. The so called climate 321 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: President Joe Biden in the United States has approved multiple 322 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: large scale drilling projects longtime industry leaders Katar, Saudi Arabia, 323 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: the United Arab Immirates, and Norway. They're all drilling as 324 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: quickly as possible. So is Brazil, which also supposedly just 325 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: elected a climate friendly president. It's a global game of 326 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: musical chairs where the company or the country left with 327 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: the least untapped oil reserves wins and the rest of 328 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: us lose in the biggest way possible. Unless unless the 329 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: fever dream that capitalism built, this idea that more is 330 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: always better, that the biggest consumers are the world's winners, 331 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,239 Speaker 1: gets tossed on its head. Even if we managed to 332 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: do what a lot of climate advocates want and electrify everything, 333 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,479 Speaker 1: we must at some point grapple with the very simple 334 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: fact that a lot of us on this planet consume 335 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: a lot more than we need to. 336 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 10: When I was first in Chile researching the social and 337 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 10: environmental impacts of lithium mining there, and Chile is the 338 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 10: world's number two producer of lithium, and also some of 339 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 10: the kind of contentious politics around extraction of this mineral. 340 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 10: I started to kind of think, you know, would it 341 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 10: matter in terms of how much lithium was needed, how 342 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 10: the sort of global energy transition is designed, or how 343 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 10: the US energy transition is designed right THEA. 344 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: Rio Francos is an associate professor of political science at 345 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: Providence College and a member of the Climate and Community Project. 346 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: Her research focuses on the impact of extractive economies and 347 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: how we might rethink them, and she's been concerned for 348 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: a while about the fact that if we keep everything 349 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: else the same and switch to renewables tomorrow, we're pretty 350 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: likely to end up with some major environmental crises on 351 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: our hands. The land use and mining impacts of electrification 352 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: are often cynically weaponized by those who would prefer to 353 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: see us hooked on fossil fuels forever, but there's substance 354 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: to them too, which got Rio Franco's thinking. Are we 355 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: destined to replace one environmental problem with another? Or could 356 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: we do things differently? And how differently would we need 357 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: to do them to really change things. 358 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 10: Are there futures in which less lithium and less of 359 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 10: these other transition minerals are required than some of the 360 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 10: most alarming kind of reports and predictions I began to 361 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 10: see from the International Energy Agency and then the World 362 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 10: Bank and multiple other forecasting agencies which were and remain 363 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 10: pretty alarming in terms of how much mining they are 364 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 10: predicting will occur or be demanded. 365 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: Rio Francos recently looked at this question in great detail 366 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: around transportation and whether there are decisions we could make 367 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: today that would make the electrification of transportation more sustainable. 368 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 10: So I was thinking a lot about an urgent and 369 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,239 Speaker 10: rapid and just energy transition in the US, but I 370 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 10: was kind of thinking about both ends of the supply 371 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 10: chain at once, Like here I am in Chile the 372 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 10: to come at desert, seeing these mining related harms, and 373 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 10: then there I go in the US kind of advocating 374 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 10: for a rapid transition, like how do I align these 375 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 10: two goals and how and is there a way to 376 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 10: kind of have a less extractive energy transition, And the 377 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 10: answer was that research didn't exist, at least not for 378 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 10: the US transportation sector. I saw forecast after forecast that 379 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 10: assumed basically a binary of the future. Right, Either we 380 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 10: stay with the fossil fuel status quo and the existential 381 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 10: crisis that that is causing for the planet and all 382 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 10: of its people, or we transition to an electrified, renewably 383 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 10: powered future. But that doesn't really change anything about how 384 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 10: these sectors or economic activities are organized. 385 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: There was a powerlessness to it all, a global giving 386 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: up on ever doing things differently. Rio Franco's thought, surely 387 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: this is not all actually set in stone. 388 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 10: It's totally understandable to me that, you know, the vast 389 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 10: majority of Americans use cars to get around because they 390 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 10: live in contexts, even some urban contexts, but especially suburban 391 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 10: and obviously especially rural context where there really is no 392 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 10: other option. And so I neither blame individuals for those choices. 393 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 10: But nor do I see our current transportation system as 394 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 10: a paragon of freedom, right, I mean, especially when we 395 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 10: consider how financially burdensome cars are for peign working class people. 396 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 10: We're at a critical juncture in terms of specifically how 397 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 10: that renewable energy transition is designed, who the winners and 398 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 10: losers are, what decisions made around certain trade offs. Right 399 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 10: in the thort of policy and resource decisions. So I'm 400 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 10: worried that this moment, which could could if we think 401 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 10: about it, critically, organize around it, and advocate for it, 402 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 10: maybe put us on a slightly less car dependent path. 403 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, none of it is set in stone. It's 404 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,959 Speaker 1: absolutely possible to shift energy demand and behavior with policies 405 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: that support those shifts. 406 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 10: But if we just take that snapshot year of twenty 407 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 10: fifty and we look at lithium demand, our worst case 408 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 10: scenario to our best case scenario is in ninety two 409 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 10: percent difference. So if we just take the year twenty fifty, 410 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 10: this future that we're looking at as er emission transportation sector, 411 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 10: our worst case scenario is we maintain current levels of 412 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 10: car dependency, car usage, Cars have this outsize kind of 413 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 10: share of overall transportation modes, Vehicle ownership rates remain like 414 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 10: the same as they are now, and we also get 415 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 10: to continue on the trend of bigger and bigger batteries 416 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 10: right that are getting more and more out of step 417 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 10: with global averages. 418 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 8: That's our worst case scenario. 419 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 10: Things get kind of actually worse but electrified, and our 420 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 10: best case scenario is we bring battery sizes back to 421 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 10: sort of reasonable size. We expand how many folks are 422 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 10: using buses or cycling. We densify our suburbs a bit, 423 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 10: we have maximum levels of recycling and recovery that are 424 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 10: technically feasible. That second future is ninety two percent less 425 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 10: lithium than the first future. And I know that the 426 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 10: ambitious future is probably beyond the realm. 427 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: Of what feels ploki possible right now. 428 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 10: And I understand that. You know, I am not like 429 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 10: living in the clouds. I'm aware of that, but I 430 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 10: think that having that option on the table, because in 431 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 10: that most ambitious future, we totally limited emissions and everyone. 432 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: Has a way to get around. 433 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 7: Right. 434 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: But even in the least ambitious, most politically feasible future 435 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: that Rio Francos and her colleagues imagined and modeled, some 436 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: pretty simple decisions made a big difference. 437 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 10: Another finding that I really like, just because it addresses 438 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 10: folks who are understandingly concerned, all like, there is no 439 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 10: America without car detent. You know, we can't move away 440 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 10: from being heard a pentent. 441 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 8: We just have to suck it up. 442 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 10: And I say to those people, we could stay in 443 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 10: scenario one, which is the one where we keep levels 444 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 10: of car usage and vehicle ownership rates, and we don't 445 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 10: identify anything and we want to sprawl. We can stay 446 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 10: sorinary one and we can just bring our batteries to 447 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 10: like the right size or not this gargantuan size, and 448 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 10: in twenty fifty we could use forty two percent less 449 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 10: lithium with the same amount of cars and the same 450 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 10: amount of car usage and vehicle ownership if we just 451 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 10: make the batteries a more normal size, like rather than 452 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 10: the super size. 453 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: It's not a smart car. 454 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 10: You know, those tiny European cars. You know, I'm not 455 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 10: even going there because again I know my audience, I 456 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 10: know my limits of what I can suggest. 457 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 11: So no, we're talking. 458 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 10: About the Nissan Leaf, or we're talking about what people 459 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 10: drive in Berlin or whatever. 460 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: Narasimhrau and joyshri Rue both mentioned similarly small shifts with 461 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: big payoffs. 462 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 11: New homes in the US are significantly larger than new 463 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 11: homes in some of the richest countries in Europe, and 464 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 11: that's something that is not something one can regulate. 465 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 12: In cold and one countries, sometimes we make it so 466 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 12: hot and so cold in the rooms that it becomes 467 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 12: not comfortable anymore. The default setting can be done in 468 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 12: such a way so that overheating and overcooling can be reduced, 469 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 12: and that can have a very high health implication, And 470 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 12: we could see that without reducing employment, without reducing human 471 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 12: well being, actually forty to seventy percent of twenty to 472 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 12: fifty level of projected emission can be reduced by working 473 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 12: on the demand side. 474 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 11: I think we need to have incentives policy incentives for 475 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 11: healthier diets that are more environmentally friendly. 476 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 7: We do need policy that helps food planners, choice architects, 477 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 7: city planners, investors to plan complexities with walking, sightly lanes, 478 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 7: public transit systems to help people to make better choices 479 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 7: for their own health and environment. 480 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: Eating slightly less meat, living in more walkable cities, and 481 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: in slightly smaller homes. None of these are actually the 482 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: massive sacrifices that they're often made out to be. In fact, 483 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: these are all things that tend to cost individuals less 484 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: money while also improving health and quality of life. But 485 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: it's important to understand that simply shifting demand or consumer 486 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: behavior will not automatically curb fossil fuel production. We know 487 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,479 Speaker 1: this from history time and time again. Absent policies that 488 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: manage an energy transition, fossil fuel companies will simply find 489 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: new markets. The plastic boom is a great example. When 490 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: demand for fossil fuels in transportation and residential energy decreased, 491 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: the industry focused its attention on ramping up petrochemicals as 492 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: a revenue stream that could make up the difference. It's 493 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: happening with the fossil fuel push in the Global South 494 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: right now too. The headline here is that there is 495 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: a path forward, There is time to do something. There 496 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: is a way to address global poverty and global warming 497 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: at the same time. But it requires action, and it 498 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: requires choices in the global North that might be briefly, 499 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: briefly a little bit painful or a tiny bit unpopular. Historically, 500 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: our politicians have not excelled at embracing short term pain 501 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: for long term gain. But that doesn't mean they cannot 502 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: or will not behave differently, just that they're unlikely to 503 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: unless pushed. In the meantime, Global South countries like Guyana 504 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: are going to continue to fund both development and climate 505 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: adaptation anyway they can, even if it means selling oil 506 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: to pay for sea walls. 507 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 9: Address the. 508 00:32:59,040 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 3: Immediately. 509 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 5: That is it for this episode and this season. Thank 510 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 5: you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. 511 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 5: Don't forget to check out our discussion guide for the season, 512 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 5: debunking the moral case for fossil fuels. There's a link 513 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 5: to it in the show notes. Also, don't forget to 514 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 5: subscribe to our newsletter for weekly analysis and our list 515 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 5: of the five climate must reads each week. It never 516 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 5: takes more than ten minutes to read, and it will 517 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 5: keep you up to date on climate coverage. Light Sweet 518 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 5: Crude is a co production of Drilled and Damages, both 519 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 5: Critical Frequency original shows. 520 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: Our senior producer and editor. 521 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 5: Is Sarah Ventry. Sound design and mixing by Martin Saltz Ostwick, 522 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 5: who also composed some original music. 523 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: For the season. The song Beiji Boggi is written and 524 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: recorded by Bill Rogers and licensed from the BBC Music Library. 525 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: Long nam Tera Dishmann is performed by Joyce or Milla 526 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: Harris in Guyana. The song Liquidator is a cover of 527 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: a Harry J Allstars song performed by the Young Ones 528 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: of Guyana, licensed by b Ame Music. 529 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 5: Our fact checker is Anna Poujol Mazzini. Our first amendment 530 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 5: attorney is James Wheaton. Our artwork is by Matthew Fleming. 531 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 5: Graphic design for the discussion guide was done by E. J. 532 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 5: Baker at Maybe Ventures. Marketing and PR were handled by 533 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 5: Maggie Taylor and Tink Media. Huge thanks to Keana Wilberg, 534 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 5: our reporter in Georgetown, for her help and amazing work, 535 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 5: and to Antonio Juhas for her reporting and insight. Thanks 536 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 5: also to all of the people in Guyana who opened 537 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 5: their homes and offices to us and were so generous 538 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 5: with their time, especially Annette Our June, Dane Gobin, Glen Law, 539 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 5: and Melinda Jenkie. And thanks to Michael McCrystal, Salvador de Karrez, 540 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 5: and Jamal Thomas for helping us navigate Guyana, and to 541 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 5: Chef Delvin Adams for showing us Georgetown's incredible markets and 542 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 5: his charming backyard cafe. This show is me possible in 543 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 5: part by generous grants from the Dock Society's Climate Storytelling Lab, 544 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 5: the William Collins Kohler Foundation, the File Foundation, and you 545 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 5: are listeners. We appreciate the support and can't wait to 546 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 5: bring you another season soon. In the meantime, don't worry, 547 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 5: We'll still be bringing you weekly episodes on all things 548 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 5: climate accountability, Thanks again and we'll see you soon.