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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How are you?

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Speaker 2: I am doing well? You know, I know we were

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Speaker 2: talking offline that some of the listeners were wanting to

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Speaker 2: get an update on my fish tank. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: They do? I did not know that people were so

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Speaker 1: fish crazy. Who knew? I just thought it was you,

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Speaker 1: that was it. But I probably, you know, a couple

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Speaker 1: of times a week, get a little message. I want

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Speaker 1: Paul to tell me about his fish tank. Okay, this

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Speaker 1: might be a spin off. Oh jeez, it wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: buried fish. I'm not sure what would be, but.

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Speaker 2: There's been some bearing of fish. Unfortunately. No, the problem

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Speaker 2: that I'm having is I've got a serial killer clownfish.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, everybody thinks Nemo, you know when

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Speaker 2: they think of clownfish right from the movie, and such

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Speaker 2: a sweet type of fish. But clownfish can be a

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Speaker 2: little dicey. And this one is decided to try to

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Speaker 2: rule the tank, has killed some fish in the tank,

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Speaker 2: and I have a reef lobster, and the clownfish constantly

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Speaker 2: harasses the reef lobster. And then I have this diamond goby.

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Speaker 2: This is a fascinating type of creature that goes around

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Speaker 2: on the sand and literally eats the sand. And you

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Speaker 2: watch it just juggle the sand in its mouth and

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Speaker 2: the sand comes out of its gills, and that's how

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Speaker 2: it gets some of its food. It just it's like

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Speaker 2: a bottom dweller, but it also picks sand up and

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Speaker 2: builds mounds of sand for its own house, like over rocks. Well,

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Speaker 2: it ended up burying my lobster, and then my lobster,

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Speaker 2: I see, it's clost to get out of the sand,

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to escape, and then of course the

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Speaker 2: clownfish is coming after it. I mean it's like a

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Speaker 2: Marvel comic thing where I've got the you know, the

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Speaker 2: sand monster. He going after the lobster. The lobster is

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Speaker 2: trying to survive, and then now the serial killer clownfish

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Speaker 2: is taking its opportunity to go after it.

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Speaker 1: Do you lose sleep over all of this? I mean

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Speaker 1: you really get upset, seriously. I mean you're spending a

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Speaker 1: lot of time figuring out what creatures work well in

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Speaker 1: this environment and work out together. It can't be easy

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Speaker 1: when one of them dies you spend so much time

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Speaker 1: with them.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean it's it's sad because you know, they

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Speaker 2: are like little pets, you know, there's no question about it.

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Speaker 2: Most certainly not as attached to each creature, whether it

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Speaker 2: be a fish or to invert, like I would be

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Speaker 2: with this core as an example. But there is a

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Speaker 2: certain level of responsibility to provide these creatures a good life.

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Speaker 2: And so if there is something that happens and it

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Speaker 2: was something within my control, of course I feel bad.

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Speaker 2: And that has happened. I've had a couple. I've lost

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Speaker 2: one fish, a pearl jawfish, which I absolutely love. This

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Speaker 2: was an amazing fish. And then you know, I've got

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Speaker 2: a lid on my tank, but there is there's a

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Speaker 2: tiny gap and the fish overnight jumped out and I

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Speaker 2: found the fish on the floor and it was just like,

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Speaker 2: dang it, I should have done more to prevent that happening.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, there is an attachment for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad to have this update because we do

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Speaker 1: have an awful lot of questions about the tank and

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Speaker 1: I had no idea that so much went on with it.

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Speaker 1: But I imagine, you know, we talk about mental health

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Speaker 1: with law enforcement here. Sometimes as silly as it sounds,

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Speaker 1: it must be one of the things that is a

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Speaker 1: good release for you, a relaxation for you, and I

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Speaker 1: everybody has to have a hobby like that. This sounds

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Speaker 1: like this is something that's kind of a zen for.

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Speaker 2: You, Oh very much. I will have. I have a chair.

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Speaker 2: It's a sort of like what would be called a

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Speaker 2: drum throne for a drum set type of chair, but

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Speaker 2: I use it for when I play guitar sometimes. But

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Speaker 2: I'll sit that in front of the tank and I'll

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Speaker 2: have my bourbon and I will just sit there, sit

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Speaker 2: the bourbon and watch the fish. Even sometimes when I'm

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Speaker 2: doing work in the afternoon and I'm on a zoom.

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Speaker 2: People may see me just kind of look off to

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Speaker 2: my right, okay, and I'm just watching the fish and

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Speaker 2: kind of get being relaxed. And you know, when you

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Speaker 2: start traumatizing me with your stories, and every now and then,

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Speaker 2: I'll look at my tank as well. Good to know

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Speaker 2: when you see me you kind of just look after

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Speaker 2: the right.

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Speaker 1: Well, you are going to need a double bourbon and

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Speaker 1: some extra fish time for this story. It is a

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Speaker 1: two parter because it is a really really big case

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Speaker 1: and just when we think it is over and the

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Speaker 1: trauma is over, it is definitely not. And there's just

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Speaker 1: a lot to untangle. And it's a great time period

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties. So let's go ahead and set

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Speaker 1: the scene. So this is in the Northeast, and it

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Speaker 1: takes place early early in the morning October sixteenth and

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven, so this is before World War two,

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Speaker 1: after World War One. Everyone in this story is sort

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Speaker 1: of middle to upper class, but it is a mystery

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Speaker 1: that is still talked about, particularly in Maine, where the

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Speaker 1: main players are from. And I've heard about this story

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Speaker 1: for years, so I'll be interested in your take. We

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Speaker 1: are in New Jersey, but not for very long. Police

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Speaker 1: in North Arlington, New Jersey, early in the morning October sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven, they spot a buick that has main

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Speaker 1: plates and it's sitting in a vacant, desolate parking lot,

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Speaker 1: and the officers who are patrolling just say, okay, we

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Speaker 1: need to check this out. I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: particularly unusual to have a car from Maine in New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: but that early in the morning, and it looks like

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Speaker 1: there's no one else around. They wanted to check it out.

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Speaker 1: So they go and they look at the car and

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Speaker 1: here's what everything gets weird immediately. There's usually a lot

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Speaker 1: of build up that I have for these stories, but

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Speaker 1: everything gets really weird right now. So they approach the car,

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Speaker 1: these officers, and the first thing they see is this

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Speaker 1: young man who's sleeping in the driver's seat. He's taking

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Speaker 1: a nap, and they knock on the door. He is

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Speaker 1: totally startled. He is seventeen years old, very young, and

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Speaker 1: he's a Maine resident named Paul Dwyer. And Paul identifies himself.

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Speaker 1: He is very kind of tired, but immediately as soon

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Speaker 1: as he sees the police. He gets nervous, so the

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Speaker 1: police get nervous and they say step out of the car,

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Speaker 1: and he's fidgeting, and they start looking around the car,

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Speaker 1: under the car, and throughout the car, and they pop

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Speaker 1: the trunk. I think, you know where I'm heading here.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's in the trunk. They pop the trunk. There's a

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Speaker 1: body in it, and it's a man. And I have

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Speaker 1: photos very quickly. The photos that I have for this

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Speaker 1: story are not going to illuminate very much, but I

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Speaker 1: try to show you as much as I can just

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Speaker 1: so that you can picture this. So I'll show you

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Speaker 1: the photo of the victim in a second. They want

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Speaker 1: to know who this person is. There's his body in

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Speaker 1: the back of the trunk. And the first thing that

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Speaker 1: Paul does, while one of them sort of turning the

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Speaker 1: body over and trying to inspect the body, Paul goes

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Speaker 1: and hands the vehicle registration to the other officer and

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Speaker 1: the driver's license of the person who is in the trunk.

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Speaker 1: So this is not Paul's car. The seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: is again freaking out because when they look at the

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Speaker 1: driver's license and they look at the registration for the car,

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Speaker 1: it's for a doctor, sixty four year old doctor. And

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Speaker 1: before they even look at the injuries, really, you know,

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Speaker 1: they find out that this is a doctor from Maine.

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Speaker 1: His name is James Littlefield. We identify him. They start

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Speaker 1: to look at the body. Paul is pacing all over

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Speaker 1: the place and one of the officers is keeping an

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Speaker 1: eye on him. Paul says, I have no idea what

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Speaker 1: is happening here. I did not kill this person. And

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Speaker 1: the officers, I don't know if they're particularly experienced, but

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Speaker 1: they don't know really how to handle this person. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just from the onset. Before I tell you what happens

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Speaker 1: to the person in the trunk, A little bit more

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Speaker 1: about this story. This would be alarming to anybody in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and let alone to police officers in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven. Somebody's sleeping in the car, there's a

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Speaker 1: body in the trunk, and the kid is very, very nervous.

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Speaker 1: As an officer on the scene, what is the first

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Speaker 1: thing they need to do? Calm him down and get

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Speaker 1: a story from him, get as many details as possible

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Speaker 1: while someone else is looking at the condition of the body.

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Speaker 2: At this point in essence, you know you have a

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Speaker 2: suspicious cirque with this kid that is sleeping in the

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Speaker 2: front seat, you know, and this right now, they're just

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Speaker 2: trying to see what's going on. You know, is this

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Speaker 2: car parked illegally? Why is this car out here? You know,

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Speaker 2: maybe the kid got tired. But now once they you know,

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Speaker 2: find this body, now things amp up. And yes, there

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Speaker 2: is going to be some questioning that patrol is doing,

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Speaker 2: but they are also now recognizing they have a crime scene,

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Speaker 2: and so it is to keep the seventeen year old

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Speaker 2: boy away from that vehicle. And at this point they

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Speaker 2: don't know what's going on, but they have this dead

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Speaker 2: body that has some injuries, so possibly there's a homicide

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Speaker 2: aspect to it. And they run into a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a difficult situation because is Paul a suspect in

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Speaker 2: the case? Are they detaining him? Is there a perception

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Speaker 2: of custody in this day and age. Of course, once

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Speaker 2: you have somebody that perceives that they're in custody, they

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Speaker 2: have the Miranda rights. But I believe in the nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirties that's pre miranda, so they're not necessarily thinking along

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Speaker 2: those lines. But they do need to isolate, they need

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Speaker 2: to roll out investigators they need to roll out corners

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Speaker 2: CSI and get that going. Patrol ends up basically keeping

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Speaker 2: things static and preventing things from changing as soon as

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Speaker 2: they recognize, oh, we have a potential homicide here. But

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Speaker 2: they also have to ensure that Paul is being handled

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Speaker 2: in a way to keep things legal for him to

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Speaker 2: be properly questioned. Most certainly, patrol may ask some very

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Speaker 2: rudimentary questions, who is this guy? What happened to him?

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Speaker 2: How did you get here? But they don't want to

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Speaker 2: get to a point to where now they shut Paul down.

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Speaker 2: And in this day and age of Paul goes, I

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Speaker 2: want my attorney. And he's seventeen, you know, so there

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Speaker 2: is he's not an adult yet. So there is that

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Speaker 2: factor that they have to consider. So they need to

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Speaker 2: get the investigators going who have the training on how

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Speaker 2: to properly handle this case from this point on forward.

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Speaker 1: Right, And we don't really get the non patrol officers

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Speaker 1: on the scene. It's not until he goes back to

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Speaker 1: the police station where he really is properly questioned. You're

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Speaker 1: right right now. What they're trying to do is just

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Speaker 1: contain him. When they start looking at the body, these

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Speaker 1: still patrol officers. They start to look at the body

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Speaker 1: and they turn it over, and I'm going to show

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Speaker 1: you a photo of the body in a second of

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Speaker 1: doctor Littlefield. The first thing they notice is there's a

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Speaker 1: belt around his neck, and he has a lot of injuries,

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Speaker 1: like blunt force trauma type injuries around his head, and

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Speaker 1: he's been shoved into this trunk, so a belt around

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Speaker 1: the neck. I would like to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that. There's some medical stuff coming up. Do you

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Speaker 1: want to see the photo of the body and the

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Speaker 1: trunk first. I don't know how much clarity it's going

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Speaker 1: to give you, but it's always helpful.

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Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, let me see what's going on, and

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Speaker 2: then we can chat about it.

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Speaker 1: Sleeping in a car. If he's the one who strangled

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Speaker 1: this man, leaving the belt around the neck. Is this

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Speaker 1: somebody who is so confident he's not going to get

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Speaker 1: caught and he's willing to take a nap, or is

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Speaker 1: this somebody who is delusional in he's seventeen. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is probably not a criminal mastermind. I'm already confused.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there's obviously there's so many variables you

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Speaker 2: can't I most certainly could only be guessing as to

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Speaker 2: you know, is Paul the one that's responsible for this homicide?

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Speaker 2: And then if he is and knows that doctor Littlefield's

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Speaker 2: body is in the trunk, you know, he's taking great risk.

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Speaker 2: I always assess offender risk because your offenders that have

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Speaker 2: their wits about them, not your psychotic offenders, but those

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Speaker 2: that you know are committing crimes and they're waere, they're

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Speaker 2: committing crimes, and they may not be the most intelligent individuals,

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Speaker 2: but they generally are going to try to minimize risk

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Speaker 2: to themselves because they don't want to get caught. And

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Speaker 2: you know, for Paul to knowingly park at a location

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Speaker 2: and fall asleep in the vehicle with a body in

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Speaker 2: the trunk, he elevates his risk. And so why is

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Speaker 2: he doing that? This is where the interview of Paul

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00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,839
Speaker 2: becomes very critical in terms of, well, what's going on.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't own the car. This car is registered to

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Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield. Is it possible Paul just stole this car

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Speaker 2: not knowing there was a body in the trunk. You know,

250
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,320
Speaker 2: so he's committee a crime and it's just unfortunate that well,

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Speaker 2: he's got a homicide victim in the trunk. So there's

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Speaker 2: things that have to be sorted out. But now I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at the photo.

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Speaker 1: It's not very clear. I know it's hard and it's

255
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Speaker 1: a little dramatic. You have three men sort of pointing

256
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Speaker 1: and staring at this body in the trunk, and I

257
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Speaker 1: know it's some particularly clear, but we could see it's

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Speaker 1: a person.

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Speaker 2: So what I am looking at this is a photo

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Speaker 2: from the rear of the vehicle. The trunk is open

261
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Speaker 2: and I can see doctor Littlefield's body. There appears to

262
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Speaker 2: be a spare tire underneath his body, but a platform

263
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,160
Speaker 2: between the spare tire and where doctor Littlefield is laying.

264
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Speaker 2: Doctor Littlefield is laying on what appears to be a

265
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Speaker 2: platform like a shelf above the spare tire, and outside

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Speaker 2: of that it appears that, you know, his head is

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Speaker 2: to the left. Though it's very obscure. I can see

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Speaker 2: what maybe his left arm if he's laying face down,

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Speaker 2: but there's something odd going on with his legs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks like he was crammed in there. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it doesn't look big. It's not a big trunk.

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Speaker 2: It's not a very big trunk. It's bigger than you know,

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Speaker 2: your typical car trunk, but Outside of that, I'm not

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Speaker 2: getting much information to be able to sort out anything about,

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Speaker 2: you know, the condition of doctor Littlefield's bodies or his injuries.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back and I will talk more about

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Speaker 1: the case. So what they start doing is, once they

278
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Speaker 1: get his body out, the officers start inspecting what was

279
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Speaker 1: underneath his body. And of course we talked about the

280
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Speaker 1: spare tire. Looked like there might have been a flare

281
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Speaker 1: in there too, just like an extra flare. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to tell, though. They also found a broken hammer that's

283
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,360
Speaker 1: handle had been split off from its head underneath him,

284
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Speaker 1: and this, I will tell you, lines up with what

285
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Speaker 1: the corner will later say. We'll line up with the

286
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,840
Speaker 1: injuries that doctor Littlefield had on his body, bruises and

287
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: abrasions on his face and his body. So now we

288
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,880
Speaker 1: have a dead doctor in his own trunk and the

289
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,920
Speaker 1: belt around his neck, and the other potential murder weapon,

290
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 1: which is a broken hammer underneath his body, and a

291
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Speaker 1: nervous seventeen year old who says he doesn't know anything,

292
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Speaker 1: and it just seems like a confusing mess. Still, you

293
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,320
Speaker 1: would leave the hammer underneath this person's body after killing him.

294
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, this is not an atypical set of circumstances

295
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 2: with a homicide. On the surface, it appears that the

296
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,360
Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield is in the rear of this trunk because

297
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 2: he's going to be His body's going to be disposed

298
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Speaker 2: of somewhere. That's the reason he's being transported. And so

299
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 2: now you have what appears to be a weapon as

300
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,280
Speaker 2: you've described it, and very likely could be the murder

301
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 2: weapon though you know, this is where the autopsy becomes important.

302
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 2: Was the cause of death? Bludgeoning was the cause of death,

303
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 2: the strangulation from the belt being used as a ligature,

304
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 2: or a combination of both. But the hammer is a

305
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 2: weapon that appears to have been used against him. And

306
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 2: so the offender, you know, is going, well, I'm on

307
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 2: a disposal mission. Well, I'm going to dispose of the

308
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 2: other evidence. And so they put everything into one spot

309
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 2: and then as they drive around. Typically they will dump

310
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,400
Speaker 2: different parts of the crime or items from the crime

311
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 2: in different locations, but sometimes they'll dump it in one location.

312
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 2: So we just don't know what If Paul is the

313
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,720
Speaker 2: offender in this case and he's on this disposal run,

314
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 2: don't know what his mindset is in terms of how

315
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 2: he's going to dispose of Littlefield's body or this hammer

316
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:01,840
Speaker 2: or the belt or clothing, et cetera.

317
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Speaker 1: And that makes sense. Your story definitely makes sense if

318
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,119
Speaker 1: this is, in theory done at Paul's place of residence, right,

319
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Speaker 1: because he wants to get that stuff out of his

320
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 1: house if it happens at his house. So, now that

321
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,199
Speaker 1: you're saying that, that doesn't make sense to me. I

322
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,200
Speaker 1: was thinking you just would leave the hammerhead underneath this guy.

323
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Speaker 2: Well, and part of it is in what I've seen,

324
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,240
Speaker 2: and I've actually had cases where the victims are killed,

325
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,719
Speaker 2: they're put in their own vehicle, and then their vehicle

326
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,960
Speaker 2: is driven to remote location and everything is just left there. Yeah, Like,

327
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,400
Speaker 2: if Paul has no association with little Field or that vehicle,

328
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,680
Speaker 2: he doesn't have to worry about separating Littlefield's body from

329
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,360
Speaker 2: the vehicle. He just needs to get everything where it's

330
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,359
Speaker 2: not going to be found from his perspective ever, but

331
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Speaker 2: at least a significant amount of time to where now

332
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Speaker 2: some of the evidence that could be used is gone.

333
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Speaker 1: And this next thing falls under that category, I think,

334
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,199
Speaker 1: because they find a pair of bloody men's pants that

335
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 1: we presumerre Paul's underneath the driver's seat, but Paul's wearing

336
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,639
Speaker 1: sounds like a cli pair of pants. They continue, they

337
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 1: get the body out. They are alarmed, as is Paul.

338
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,719
Speaker 1: They've cuffed Paul. He's standing there and not saying anything

339
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,680
Speaker 1: except knowing anything about what happened. I was just asleep

340
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 1: in this car. I don't know what happened. So the

341
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,160
Speaker 1: patrol men begin to search the rest of the car.

342
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 1: It just keeps coming and come in with this story.

343
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,200
Speaker 1: There is a big pile of clothing covering the floor

344
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 1: in the car's back seat area, right behind where Paul

345
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 1: had been napping. He was in the front seat, and

346
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,160
Speaker 1: one of the officers, Norman Turner, starts feeling around in

347
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 1: the clothing trying to figure out what it is, and

348
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,879
Speaker 1: he said, putting my hand down under the coats, I

349
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 1: felt what appeared to be hair. I grabbed the hair

350
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Speaker 1: and lifted the head and it was a woman's head. Yeah,

351
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,600
Speaker 1: another body in the car. So they realized this is

352
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 1: a woman's body and she's in the back seat covered

353
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Speaker 1: up with all of these clothes and stuff. And this person,

354
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Speaker 1: the victim, turns out to be Lydia Littlefield, who is

355
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: doctor Littlefield's wife. This has now become very complicated because

356
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,120
Speaker 1: Paul continues to freak out and continues to deny knowing

357
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 1: anything about this. But now we have what turns out

358
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,879
Speaker 1: to be an affluent couple from South Paris, Maine, a

359
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 1: doctor and his wife who seemingly have no enemies in

360
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 1: the world, are now dead in this car with this

361
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 1: young man.

362
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 2: Is this car I couldn't tell from the photo. Is

363
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,960
Speaker 2: this a four door car where you could access Missus

364
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 2: Littlefield's body through a door?

365
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to show you right now because I do

366
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: have a photo of her body. Okay, So there's the

367
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 1: back where you see mister Littlefield, doctor Littlefield. Yes, here

368
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,680
Speaker 1: is a photo of the side, so it does look

369
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 1: like yes, it's a four door, because it looks like

370
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 1: the what do you call it? Is it the rim

371
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,119
Speaker 1: where I'm some car ignorant? It's unreal?

372
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,439
Speaker 2: Well this, you know what I'm looking at. The photo

373
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: that you're showing is a view into the side door,

374
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 2: into the rear seat of this vehicle, and I can

375
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 2: see Missus Littlefield's legs, her lower legs kind of. She's

376
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,880
Speaker 2: on the floorboard with the rear seat to the right,

377
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,719
Speaker 2: and it's her right so she appears at least her legs,

378
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 2: her hips appear to be faced down. I can't see

379
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 2: her upper body. The vehicle itself. In terms of the door,

380
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: it appears to be what is commonly referred to as

381
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 2: a suicide door. So it opens the opposite way right,

382
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 2: so it opens from the front to the rear. The

383
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 2: hinges towards the rear. So this is where what I'm

384
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 2: trying to assess. You mentioned that she had been buried

385
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 2: under a pile of clothes hidden, you know, and of

386
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 2: course I'm assuming I don't see it in this photo,

387
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 2: but there would be windows in that door, so somebody

388
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 2: walking by, if she hadn't been covered up with clothes,

389
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 2: she would be visible. So there's a functional aspect to

390
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: the clothes being on top of her. Now, the question

391
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,959
Speaker 2: that I have is is Paul aware of her body

392
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 2: in the vehicle that's literally right behind the seat that

393
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 2: he's driving the vehicle in and sleeping in. So many questions,

394
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 2: is Paul the one that put these bodies in the vehicle,

395
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: or you know, he's seventeen, you know, Now I'm starting

396
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 2: to assess, is Paul, at age seventeen, capable of killing

397
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,440
Speaker 2: these two adults, you know, taking control you know, as

398
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: an offender. Yeah, I have to think, Okay, how how

399
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 2: does this occur? You have a sixty four year old man.

400
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: Now he's he's an older man, but he's without knowing

401
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 2: much about his victimology. At this point, I don't know

402
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: how physically capable doctor Littlefield was, but I'm going to

403
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 2: assume that he's probably average in terms for a sixty

404
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: four year old man. He's not necessarily going to be

405
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 2: the easiest victim to overpower. And you also have this woman,

406
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 2: you know, So now can this teenage boy be able

407
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 2: to handle both victims? Were they killed at the same time,

408
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: or was one killed and another one was killed? So

409
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: that's part of what I would be assessed as to

410
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 2: whether or not Paul is physically capable or is Paul

411
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: a Patsy. He literally was given the car keys by

412
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 2: the offender and told drive this states away and we

413
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 2: will have somebody pick you up, not knowing that he's

414
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 2: driving a vehicle with two bodies in it.

415
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: You have just landed on the crux of this case.

416
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: Oh and now you know why this is a two parter.

417
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: So I do want to talk about Paul's capabilities. I

418
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: have photos of Lydia and James Littlefield, and of course

419
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: of Paul also, but she has a belt around her

420
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: neck also. Okay, but I'll tell you about the injury

421
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: in a second. Let me just show you them just

422
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: so that you can see. I will tell you he

423
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 1: had defensive wounds also, so he fought back, doctor Littlefield.

424
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: So this is the two of them, average kind of

425
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: middle aged couple around the same age. Yeah, it's hard

426
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: to tell from these photos, but it's good to.

427
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 2: Know, right And you know, at least from like doctor Littlefield,

428
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: typically the males are going to be the more. They're

429
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,719
Speaker 2: more of the physical threat to the offender. Right, So

430
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,239
Speaker 2: now you know with doctor Littlefield, was hen military, did

431
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 2: he have any you know? Was he a Golden gloves boxer?

432
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: You know? Is something in his past in which, now,

433
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 2: if an offender is coming in in order to take

434
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 2: physical control over this mail, you know, is he having

435
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: to bring a gun with him in order to control

436
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 2: the use of a hammer? Is there injuries to the

437
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 2: back of his head that might indicate he was blitzed

438
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 2: from behind and then ultimately the use of the belt,

439
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: possibly to strangle. But I think right now, in terms

440
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: of assessing this case, One of the significant aspects of

441
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,959
Speaker 2: the victimology is the affluence yeap of the little fields,

442
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: because we know money is often a motive for these

443
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 2: types of crimes, and.

444
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: That reminds me. I'll go ahead and show you, even

445
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: though I know it doesn't make that much of a difference.

446
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: I will show you the house where they live. This

447
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: is the house, so nice, big house in Maine. He

448
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: was a well known doctor. He had been in Maine

449
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: and had many patients, and he was well off.

450
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so you have to take my word.

451
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: For it that they had seemingly that we know of

452
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: so far, seemingly no enemies, and we're going to find

453
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: out how they are connected to paul In just a

454
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: little bit so well off couple, right. I think the

455
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: big deal is what would the motive be even at

456
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: this point from what we know. So let's talk about

457
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: her injury. I said that she was also strangled, and

458
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: of course a different belt is around her neck. Still,

459
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: the corner said the tongue was swollen and blood came

460
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: from her mouth. That is consistent I'm assuming with strangulation.

461
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, during strangulation, you could have a demo that builds

462
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 2: up in the lungs, and of course you know, as

463
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 2: she sits there, that can end up exuding out of

464
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: the mouth, out of the nose, the swollen tongue. You

465
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: see that a lot like it hangings where all of

466
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: a sudden, somebody who's hung themselves, their tongue protrudes. The

467
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: neck is compressed, and you know, the tongue, you know,

468
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: goes down into the next structure, and so when the

469
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: neck gets compressed, the tongue itself ends up having to

470
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: kind of get pressed out, you know, somewhere, and so

471
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: sometimes it does protrude out of the mouth.

472
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: Okay, So now we have two people who have been strangled,

473
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: and one of those two people has defensive wounds and

474
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: looks like he's been in a fight. And I'll have

475
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: more details from the corner's report in a little bit.

476
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: They take Pole down finally, after they start processing the scene,

477
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: and he is still saying, I have no idea what happened.

478
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: I'm just seventeen. I found myself in this car, blah blah.

479
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: He's in denial. Finally the investigators, more experienced non patrolman investigators,

480
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: get a hold of him, and later on the same day,

481
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 1: Paul confesses to what I will say is one of

482
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: the more confusing stories. So what I want to do is,

483
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: once you hear this confession, let's just talk about if

484
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: it makes sense to you and then proceed from there.

485
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: We're not even a third of the way through this

486
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 1: at all. So here's one of his stories that are contradictory.

487
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: So what Paul says is, Okay, I'm going to come clean.

488
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: This is what happened. He says that his girlfriend and he,

489
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: who are both seventeen, Barbara Carroll is his girlfriend, are

490
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: both patients of doctor Littlefield's and he's a general practitioner,

491
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: so he would treat for basically everything. So that is

492
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: the connection. He Paul and Barbara were both patients of

493
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: this man, and he would have in this part of

494
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: Maine treated all different ages, all different kinds of people.

495
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: So Paul says that three days before the patrolman discover

496
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: him sleeping in this car, he had asked doctor Littlefield

497
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: to make a house call at his house at the

498
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: Dwyer House. So Paul is there. He calls and says,

499
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: you know where he lives with his mother. He calls

500
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: and says, I need you to come visit. So doctor

501
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: Littlefield did do house calls. He comes to the house

502
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: and Paul says, he wants to know, please tell me

503
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: if I have a sexually transmitted infection. Paul says that

504
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: doctor Littlefield says, okay, let me take a look, and

505
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: he takes a look at Paul, and Paul says that

506
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: doctor Littlefield during this examination does not give him a

507
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: yes or no of whether or not he has an STI.

508
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: What he does say is something disparaging about his seventeen

509
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: year old girl friend, Barbara Carroll, who wasn't there at

510
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: the time, So I would have to say it would

511
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I can imagine it was something like, well,

512
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be sleeping with somebody like this, and this

513
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: is what you get. And you either have it or

514
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: you don't, but either way, this is what you get.

515
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: And Paul says, he snapped and just freaked out. So

516
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: just from the beginning of this, does this seem logical?

517
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I know he's seventeen, but does does this

518
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: seem like a motive?

519
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: Well, it most certainly can in terms of you know,

520
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: when we talk about in the heat of the moment

521
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: type of crime, But it doesn't explain doctor Littlefield's wife

522
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: being killed, right? You know, was she right there? You know,

523
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: would they have visited Paul, you know, on a house

524
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: call together? And then of course in evaluating it, it's

525
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: more you know, right now, all you've told me is

526
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: what Paul's saying why he killed doctor Littlefield. He doesn't

527
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: mention why he killed missus Littlefield. But the proper interview

528
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: would be, Okay, well, when you snapped, what did you do?

529
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: And then let's get that information and how do those

530
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: details line up with the evidence, with the injuries to

531
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield and missus Littlefield, et cetera. And so that's

532
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: where you have to keep Paul talk in. You don't

533
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: just say, oh, he confessed. You've got to get the

534
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: details to either corroborate or refute the statements.

535
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the injuries and see if it lines

536
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: up what he says happened with the murder versus you

537
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: know what the injuries that we know of so far.

538
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: So Paul says this is what happened. He said something

539
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: mean about my girlfriend. These are quotes. I hit the

540
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: doctor with my fist. They're in the bathroom with this examination.

541
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: He fell against the bathtub, he hit his head, his

542
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: head hit the bathtub. It did not quite knock him out.

543
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: He got up and started to fight, and I strangled

544
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: him with both hands. I held him for quite a

545
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: long time, about five minutes. He did not fight back.

546
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: I went upstairs and packed some things of mine. I

547
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: decided to take him the doctor with me the body.

548
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: When I went back after packing, I found the doctor

549
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: was coming too. He's waking up. So I put a

550
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: belt of mine around his neck and choked him. I

551
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: hit him with a hammer after choking him with the belt.

552
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: I must have struck him two or three times. So

553
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: this lines up somewhat with what the coroner will say

554
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: these types of injuries, So it sounds like he really

555
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: attacked him.

556
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: Yet you know, at least again on the surface, you know,

557
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: there is some consistency with the details he's providing with

558
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 2: what you have told me they found on doctor Littlefield.

559
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: But this is where, Okay, what does the formal autopsy say,

560
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: how much of these details are truly in line with

561
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: what happened to doctor Littlefield and the sequence that happened

562
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: to doctor Littlefield. Minimally, I would say Paul is aware

563
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: of some of the details of Littlefield's injuries as well

564
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: as the belt, So this is interesting, But was he

565
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: present when they pulled Littlefield's body out at the scene,

566
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: could see the belt on Littlefield's body? Could see the injury?

567
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: Or did investigators? Because this is this is a mistake

568
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: that sometimes happens as investigators feed details to the person

569
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: they are interviewing, and now a person constructs a scenario

570
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: to account for the details that they've been fed. And

571
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: this is this is what I would call an improper

572
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: way to do an interview. You want the interview we

573
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: to provide you the details. Don't confront somebody and say, hey,

574
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: how come there's a belt around doctor Littlefield's neck. You

575
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: let the person you're talking to bring that out. But

576
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: you also have to be aware what did that person observe,

577
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: you know, out there at the scene, because he's he's

578
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: just being held by patrol. Did they isolate him away

579
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: from doctor Littlefield's body or is he standing right there

580
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: while they pulled the body out.

581
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: I'm guessing at first there were only two patrol men

582
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: when they're making all of these discoveries, and I'm guessing

583
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: that Paul was hovering around right there. I doubt that

584
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: they had the foresight to move I don't think they

585
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: were expecting to find that. I think they thought some kid,

586
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: maybe you know, lifted car and that was that. Let

587
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: me tell you what the examiners say, what they concluded happened,

588
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: and then tell me if this lines up with what

589
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: Paul was saying. This fight was like with doctor Littlefield. Okay,

590
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: so they confirmed that Lydia was strangled. There's no real

591
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: controversy around Lydia, but doctor Littlefield's a little bit more complicated.

592
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: They said that he seemed to have been involved in

593
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: a real fight for his life. This is according to

594
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: a report in the Lewiston Daily Sun. His body bore

595
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: five large bruises on the skull. None of these resulted

596
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: in skull fractures. However, one wound in the center of

597
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: his head produced a lot of blood. This specific injury

598
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: is believed to have been the result of a hit

599
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: dealt by a blunt instrument before his death. The report

600
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: also notes that there were blood cloths all over the

601
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: left temple and right eye, and the arms and the

602
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: body bore bruises and there is blood pattern to talk

603
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: about once you're done talking about this, So does that

604
00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: all make sense?

605
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: Well in terms of correlating it with Paul's statement, there

606
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: is some consistency there. You know, if he's initially striking

607
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield with his fists, you know that most certainly

608
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: can cause you know, the bruising. You know, these this

609
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging that's you know, around the skull that they're saying,

610
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: but it's not causing the fractures. You know. Of course,

611
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: oftentimes when there's fisticus going on, the combatants will have

612
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: lacerations to their face. You know, you have the split lip,

613
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: you have the split eyebrow, you have the nose that's

614
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: being punched, you know, the teeth possibly being broken. So

615
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: that's part of what I would be interested in knowing,

616
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: you know, is do we have an ongoing struggle in

617
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: which Littlefield and Paul are fighting? But I would expect

618
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: if Littlefield has these types of injuries, bruises all over

619
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: his body and he's fighting back, well, then Paul likely

620
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: should have some injuries to show that this was this struggle.

621
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: So was there any observation on Paul. Did it look

622
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: like he been punched, did he have bruises, did he

623
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: have scratches? You know, this is two essentially adult males

624
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: that are fighting, and if they are in a prolonged struggle,

625
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: I would expect to see at least some injury to Paul.

626
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 1: Well, I'll go ahead and disclose this right now, that

627
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: the murder scene does happen in Paul's house, because they

628
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: find all the blood and I'm jumping to this. I

629
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: wanted to keep this for later, but I'm jumping to

630
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: this to hopefully give you a little bit of clarity

631
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: on what is on Paul. There don't appear to be

632
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: any scratches or any defensive wounds or anything on Paul.

633
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: There's no obvious sign that he's been in a fight.

634
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: His knuckles aren't scratched up. Nothing is happening. They go

635
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: to Paul's house and I'll just tell you this. Like

636
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: I said, I'm jumping ahead here. They find fingerprints, of course,

637
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: his fingerprints are everywhere. There's blood all over the floor,

638
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: and there is blood on the soles of doctor Littlefield's shoes,

639
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: as well as bloodstains that they say are in a

640
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: downward direction on pants. And what they think happened does

641
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: this suggests to investigators in nineteen thirty seven that Littlefield.

642
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: Doctor Littlefield had been up and moving after he had

643
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: been hit, so you're nodding your head. You agree.

644
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: I agree.

645
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: Paul is saying this, this is what happened, and it

646
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: sounds like that makes sense to you too. That he

647
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: was hit, he was still alive, he was fighting back

648
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: and that's why the blood ended up where it was.

649
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: Well, and this is where you know, with doctor Littlefield,

650
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: with this significant bleeding injury to the center of his head.

651
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: Part of evaluating that is, Okay, what are the blood

652
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: flows out of that wound? Show? You know, if those

653
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: blood flows are flowing, let's say, down his face and

654
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 2: dripping on the front of him, he's upright, you know,

655
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: he may be sitting, he may be standing. Are there

656
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: drip patterns inside Paul's house to indicate, you know, from

657
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield he's upright and you could start to see

658
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: movements by following the drip patterns. Are there smears? You know,

659
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 2: this would also be consistent with, you know, a struggle.

660
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: One of the things that is popping in to my

661
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: mind is well, Paul being seventeen years old, he doesn't

662
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: own this house, he doesn't live by himself.

663
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's his mom's house. It's his mom's house

664
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: and she wasn't there.

665
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: What about where's his dad at Dad's.

666
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: Not in the picture, just his mom, just he and

667
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,479
Speaker 1: his mom, and she's gone and doesn't know anything about

668
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: any of this, all.

669
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: Right, So essentially, you know, Paul has this residence to

670
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 2: himself for a period of time, and then who does

671
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 2: Paul know who comes over to the house, because that

672
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 2: becomes significant. If Paul is lacking these injuries and we've

673
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: got evidence of an ongoing struggle with another adult male,

674
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: I would start to question Paul about well, who else

675
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: was there? Who else was struggling with? Doctor Littlefield?

676
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: How much weight do you put in the fact that

677
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: they don't find fingerprints other than Paul and his mom

678
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: and probably Barbara who has been in his house many times,

679
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: and doctor Littlefield. If we have mysterious you know, co

680
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: conspirator man and his fingerprints aren't anywhere. I know he

681
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: could wear gloves, but does that say anything?

682
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: No, This is where you know, absence of evidence is

683
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 2: not evidence of absence walking into a house. Think about

684
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: let's say you go to a get together at somebody

685
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: else's house. You know, how many surfaces are you truly

686
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: touching while you're in there? And how are you touching

687
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: those surfaces? If you have somebody that comes through the

688
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: front door, the doors opened up for them, they come in,

689
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: they sit down on the sofa, they talk. In this environment,

690
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: let's say in the little field case, Now there's an altercation,

691
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: and an altercation is there's going to be a lot

692
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: of movement. Fingerprints that are smeared are no good and

693
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: typically most of the time when people touch surfaces, even

694
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: though they're leaving fingerprint residue, it's not a fingerprint that

695
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: is static enough in order to be able to be

696
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 2: used to affect an identification, to be able to have

697
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 2: the details in it. It's actually relatively rare for somebody

698
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 2: to touch a surface in a manner to leave a

699
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: good enough print that can be used for comparison. So

700
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: this is where it's really lucky. When we find the

701
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: offender's fingerprint inside a crime scene. More often than not,

702
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: we don't get the offender's fingerprints, and in part it's because, well,

703
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 2: they didn't touch any of the surfaces that are amenable

704
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: for fingerprints, like a nice smooth, non poor surface. A

705
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: lot of surfaces like wood surfaces are too textured for fingerprints.

706
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: Fabric doesn't record fingerprints. You know, there's so many variables.

707
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: And then it's also, well, how thoroughly did they process

708
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 2: the crime scene? You know, you've got a whole house.

709
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: I've processed whole houses. It can take days, So you know,

710
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 2: did do they fingerprint the right surfaces? And in the

711
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties they're using just black powder, you know, so

712
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 2: it's not the most sensitive technology to recover Layton's at

713
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: a crime scene.

714
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: And it almost doesn't matter at this point in the

715
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: investigation because Paul's saying it was just doctor Littlefield and

716
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: me there nobody else. He wasn't blaming anybody else at

717
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: this point. So the police say, okay, what happened? Next?

718
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: You say, you killed him? He said something mean about

719
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: your girlfriend, and you beat him and then strangled him

720
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: with your hands and then that didn't work, and you

721
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: used a belt and you strangled him and that was it.

722
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: Paul says, okay, this is what happened. He said, I

723
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: moved doctor Littlefield's lifeless body down a set of stairs,

724
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: out of his house and into the darkness of the night,

725
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: and finally dragging him into the trunk of Littlefield's own car,

726
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: so out of Paul's house through the darkness by himself

727
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: putting him, shoving him into the car. I'm presuming before

728
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: rigor happens. Of course, here's where the media, when they

729
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: find out a but this story called bullshit because Paul

730
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: is petite, and I'm gonna show you a photo of him.

731
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: He is described as short and of slight build, and

732
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: doctor Littlefield is not a hulk, but he's bigger, much

733
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: bigger than Paul is. It sounds like, so does this

734
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: old man's strength apply to more slight men also where

735
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 1: they can just do incredible things? Because they're saying, there's

736
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: no way this how the media doesn't think this has happened.

737
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: Okay, let me see a picture of Paul.

738
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: All right, hang on, there he is. He does look

739
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: very like I don't know if it's boy band ask

740
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: he looks very young to me.

741
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: Well, Paul, Yeah, you know, I'm seeing Paul. He's got

742
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: a jacket on, but I can tell he's not very

743
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: broad shouldered, but he looks like he's reasonably fit. And

744
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: I kind of think about myself, you know, at this age,

745
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 2: I'm the same size I am today, and quite proud

746
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 2: that I weigh the same as I did in high school.

747
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,479
Speaker 2: All right, I am roughly five ten, maybe a little

748
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 2: shorter than five ten, but I like to say I'm

749
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: five to ten. Okay, man, I'm one hundred and sixty

750
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: five pounds, and you know, in high school I'm the

751
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 2: same way. I'm just, you know, kind of just a

752
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: average sized teenage boy. But from let's say a weightlifting perspective,

753
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: I could push more weight in high school, almost twice

754
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: as much than what I can do now. In terms

755
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: of just my physical capabilities, I was so much more

756
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: physically capable during those late teenage years, and so you

757
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: can't underestimate the strength of the average teenage boy to

758
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 2: be able to move doctor Littlefield's body or even pick

759
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: it up. I can go back to the academy where

760
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: we had to do the dummy drag one hundred and

761
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 2: sixty five pound dummy, and not only did we have

762
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: men in there, but we had relatively petite women that

763
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 2: were going through the police academy, and they were able

764
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 2: to drag this body, an average sized, average weighing male

765
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: sized body in this dummy form in order to do that.

766
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 2: So I'm not questioning whether Paul is physically capable of

767
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 2: moving doctor Littlefield's body unless doctor Littlefield is two hundred

768
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: and fifty three hundred pounds, right, you know, if he's

769
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty to two hundred pounds, I would

770
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: think Paul would be able to manipulate that body. What

771
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to be going to is Littlefield has this

772
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: significant bleeding injury, and even though he's dead at the

773
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: time his body is being moved out of Paul's house

774
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: and being put in the trunk, these wounds still seep blood.

775
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: Is there a blood trail, whether it be dripped trail,

776
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: is their smears? You know? Is there something that is

777
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: consistent with what Paul is saying in terms of moving

778
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: the body, Because unless he puts a plastic bag around

779
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield's head and senses it off with the belt,

780
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 2: so it's basically closed, I would expect that there would

781
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: be some evidence of this movement of doctor Littlefield's body

782
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: at the crime scene.

783
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: What he is saying makes sense if we are saying

784
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: that a young man of very slight build can do this,

785
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: especially with adrenaline and fear and everything else happening. So

786
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think that the killing and the

787
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: dragging and the putting in the trunk is going to

788
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: be what's in question. It's going to be who was

789
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: involved with it and whether or not it was Paul

790
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: or Paul and someone else or someone else specifically.

791
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 2: There's still huge gaps though in this case. You know,

792
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: first the lack of injuries to Paul during what appears

793
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: to be an ongoing struggle, and second, so far he

794
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: hasn't accounted for why Missus Littlefield is dead and inside

795
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: the car.

796
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: Well, here we go. This is a convoluted story. Paul

797
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: never really successfully explains why he did any of this.

798
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: I will say I think from the beginning that he

799
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: is framing this as a I was out of my

800
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: mind and I didn't know what to do. So this

801
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: is what I did as a seventeen year old, scared

802
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: kid who apparently just killed someone. It's nine forty five now,

803
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: and doctor Littlefield is in the trunk of his own car,

804
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: dead with the belt around his neck. Paul says he

805
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,720
Speaker 1: does not He had no clue what to do next,

806
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: so he drove to doctor Littlefield's house because he had

807
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: a fear that somehow, you know, Missus Littlefield was going

808
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: to know that her husband would go missing. They would

809
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: find out that the last person that he spoke with

810
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: was this patient Paul Dwyer and people would put it together.

811
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: So his solution was to go track down Lydia. So

812
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: he says, he knocks on the door. He spoke with

813
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: her the whole time. Her husband's body is in the

814
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: trunk of his car. He says, listen, doctor Littlefield accidentally

815
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: killed two people in a traffic accident, and he took

816
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: off to Boston. Of course, Lydia is upset, and doctor

817
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: Littlefield entrusted his own car to Paul with the direction

818
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: that Paul pick up Lydia and drive her to Boston

819
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: to rendezvous with her husband. She was out of her

820
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: mind and very confused, according to Paul, and doctor Littlefield

821
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: had taken a train to Boston and said, go get

822
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: my wife. Deliver her safely to me in my own car.

823
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: So Paul says, as stupid as this story sounds, Lydia

824
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: Littlefield bought it. He says, get some money, grab some

825
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: of your clothing, which we know is in the back

826
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: of the car, and meet me at the car. And

827
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: she does. Does this not sound like the most inane

828
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: thing you have ever heard during a confession? Or brilliant?

829
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: Which one isn't? Paul? Is he a brilliant seventeen year old.

830
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: Well that's where you know, as you were describing this scenario,

831
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 2: you know there is a level of sophistication to that scenario,

832
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: which you know, in the heat of the moment for

833
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: a seventeen year old boy, you know, to kind of

834
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: come up with. You know, there's again stepping into the

835
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: mind of Paul, the offender in this case. He's just

836
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: killed somebody, that's what he's saying. His brain is short circuiting.

837
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: He's never done this before, you know, so he is

838
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: not your hardcore serial killer, mafia hitman type of person

839
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 2: who's going to be calm under pressure. That's the sense

840
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: that I've got, you know, just based on patrols interactions

841
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 2: with him, how nervous he was, pacing back and forth

842
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 2: and everything else. I just don't see him being a

843
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: cool customer and after killing doctor Littlefield, now constructing this

844
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: scenario to convince a much more mature adult in Lydia

845
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: and missus Littlefield to convince her to do something. You know,

846
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical that this is Paul's scenario, that he's constructed himself.

847
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: But he under this scenario, you're indicating that he lures

848
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: Lydia out to doctor Littlefield's car, and then he must

849
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: strangle her out there with this belt.

850
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: Correct, well, what he says, because the story takes a

851
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: real left turn. He says that once she's in the

852
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: car with him on October thirteenth, he has no idea

853
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: why he did this and what to do with her.

854
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: At this point, I don't think he wants to kill her,

855
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: but he says, they start driving and they go to Boston.

856
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: He drives her to Boston. It's about one am at

857
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: this point, so it was a couple hour drive. I guess.

858
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: Paul says. They don't stay in Boston long. He pretends

859
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 1: to call doctor Littlefield and gets updated quote unquote updated

860
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: instructions on where to meet him with his wife.

861
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 2: But just to stop you there, he pretends to call.

862
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: So he must stop at some sort of phone.

863
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: Right yep, pay phone, and he says, I'm calling. He

864
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: pretends to call again. This is all Paul either a

865
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: real story that is incredible, or Paul's really really interesting

866
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: imagination on how to explain why this dead woman's in

867
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: her own husband's car covered with clothes.

868
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: I don't think this is a prediction, but I will

869
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: tell you if Paul makes the following claim, then I know, okay,

870
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: you know he's lying. If he says that, well, missus

871
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 2: Littlefield came on to him and they had sex, then

872
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: now now I know he's lying, because that is what

873
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: typically ends up, you know, some of these false statements,

874
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 2: these lies, you know, they end up having this little

875
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: bit of fantasy that they want to insert into these statements.

876
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: Well, he does not say that, so now his credibility is,

877
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: at least as far as Paul Holds is concerned, is

878
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: up in the air. We'll see. He does not say that.

879
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: He goes on a road trip with Lydia Littlefield. He

880
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: says they go from Boston to Concord, New Hampshire, then

881
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: back to Boston, then to Portsmouth, then to Gloucester, Massachusetts

882
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: after that, and they're just sort of circling around New England,

883
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: he says, for two days. And Lydia is becoming increasingly

884
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: suspicious of Paul. No shit, I mean, of course she is.

885
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: She eventually, according to Paul, tries to get out of

886
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: the car and run because she's saying, this guy is

887
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: not doing what he says he was going to do,

888
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: and where's my husband, and there's no cell phones, and

889
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: what am I supposed to do? And Paul snatches her

890
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 1: and strangles her with a belt, okay, and puts her

891
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: in the back of the car.

892
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: And this car just happens to have all these clothes

893
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 2: in it.

894
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: Well, remember he told her pack up some stuff.

895
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: Okay.

896
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: So it's again a confusing thing because there are some

897
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: things that are consistent.

898
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 2: You know, Paul is providing some details that seem to

899
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: overlap with something that the offender would know. Driving around

900
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 2: two days with a dead body in the trunk, even

901
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 2: though it is October in the Northeast, so I'm assuming

902
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: it's pretty cool. But you know, bodies do start to smell.

903
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 1: Three days, is that it? You think three days would

904
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: it start to smell. Let's say it's in the forties fifties,

905
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: because they're in Maine, so it's a little bit further

906
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: north than I'm used to.

907
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say you would start to pick up

908
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 2: a hint of an odor, you know, pretty quickly, for sure.

909
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: Paul says that after he strangled Lydia, he was pretty traumatized,

910
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: but he had the foresight to say, I need to

911
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: cover this up. He puts her body in the back seat,

912
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: floorboards and covers it up with the clothing that she

913
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: had packed up for the trips of the consistency we

914
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 1: were talking about. He admitted to taking the two hundred

915
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars out of missus Littlefield's purse that he

916
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: had asked her to grab. Remember, he said, get some money,

917
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: and you're gonna need to be prepared to go for

918
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: a while until this case gets cleared up. And it

919
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: was interesting that he picked that lie. We didn't talk

920
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: about that. He said, doctor Littlefield killed two people in

921
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: a traffic accident, so it wouldn't have been out of

922
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: the realm of possibility. I think being a serial killer

923
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: would have been out of the realm of possibility for Lydia.

924
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 1: But if someone said, your spouse to me got into

925
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: a car accident and killed two people, I'm not sure

926
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: if I would say, oh, you got it, there's no

927
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: way that would have happened. Yeah, that could happen anybody.

928
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: So he picked the right lie.

929
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: If this story is true, yes, in some ways, But

930
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: why would doctor Littlefield feel that he has to be

931
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,959
Speaker 2: on the run if this was truly an accident. That's

932
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: a little sketchy, you know, thinking about Littlefield's perspective of

933
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 2: that lie about killing two people in an accident. But

934
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 2: it is again I think, like what you said, Paul

935
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: came up with a scenario that seemed convincing enough.

936
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah to a panic to wife. Yeah, she's panicking. She

937
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: doesn't know what's going on. This has never happened to

938
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: her husband before. She just knows that he's been gone.

939
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: So we now have Paul taking two hundred and fifty

940
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: dollars out of missus Littlefield's purse. He took doctor Littlefield's

941
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: watch off his wrist, and then he drives, and that's

942
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: how we end up at stage one, which is North

943
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: Arlington Police discovering him asleep in the car in a

944
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: vacant parking lot in New Jersey. The case is something

945
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: that becomes very, very complicated because there is one detail

946
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 1: I want to talk about, and I'm probably not gonna

947
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: have enough information for you on this, but the coroner

948
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: noted that doctor Littlefield had an anti mortem injury to

949
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: his scrotum, So I don't want to get too graphic

950
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: about that, but it sounds like it was something that

951
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: was intentionally inflicted as a message.

952
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 2: So you notice now how I'm looking off to the

953
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 2: right at my fish tank.

954
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: I know, because I don't want to talk about scrotums either.

955
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: No, but this is now where it's like, okay, this

956
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 2: becomes a very significant detail from my perspective. Okay, I

957
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 2: want to see what that injury is. Does it look

958
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: like it's intentionally inflicted? Are we talking about was there

959
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 2: an attempt to excize the male genitalium? Depending on what

960
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 2: I would see from evaluating this injury to Littlefield's scrotum,

961
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 2: that would inform me more than anything else about the

962
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: offender's motive.

963
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: So this has become a very complicated case. Paul Dwyer

964
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 1: is under arrest, and it seems clear he's headed to

965
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: trial because there's no other suspects here, and he has

966
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: stayed quiet until now where he says, hold on a second,

967
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: I need to make some changes to my confession. And

968
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: he makes two major changes, one to the motive and

969
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: two he blames somebody else for this, who is very

970
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: very close to him.

971
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: Dum.

972
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So part two comes next week.

973
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: You're going to leave me hanging.

974
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: I know, I know that's my job, sir.

975
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: I still leave you hanging, leave me hagen. We've got

976
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 2: a scrollable injury, and now I'm stuck and I have

977
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: to wait.

978
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: If I never hear that word again, it will be

979
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: too soon. But I know we'll talk about it. Okay,

980
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you next week.

981
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good? Thank you.

982
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

983
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

984
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

985
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

986
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

987
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Leona Squilacci.

988
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

989
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

990
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

991
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

992
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: buried Bones Pod.

993
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

994
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

995
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and.

996
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

997
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now