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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's about class and privilege, morality, love and betrayal, power,

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Speaker 2: all these things and how they collide. The story about

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Speaker 2: ambition and the way that that could sometimes lead you

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Speaker 2: to triumph, but it can also sometimes lead you to

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Speaker 2: dark places, and it can be deadly or your downfall

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

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Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Joe

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Speaker 1: Pompeo is a senior media correspondent for Vanity Fair and

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Speaker 1: an author. He's written a book called Blood and Ink,

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Speaker 1: an heiress, a tabloid war, and the unsolved double murder

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Speaker 1: that hooked a nation on true crime. Joe's tackled a

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Speaker 1: very well known case, but he's added a depth to

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Speaker 1: it that I haven't read before. Let's dig into the

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Speaker 1: Whole Mills story. What are the themes that we have

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Speaker 1: to look forward to with the story.

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Speaker 2: It's a story about dark secrets and shaking the foundations

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Speaker 2: of a community, and I think for me personally that

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Speaker 2: resonates with me as a fan of Victorian literature.

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Speaker 3: And Twin Peaks and things like that.

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Speaker 2: But really when a small, quiet community that can be

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Speaker 2: completely upended by these dark secrets that are kind of

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Speaker 2: lurking right beneath the surface. I also think as a

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Speaker 2: story about how the media and the public interacts with

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Speaker 2: scandal and crime, that's something that with the birth of

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Speaker 2: the tabloid press in the nineteen twenties when this story

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Speaker 2: takes place, I think something that still resonates today with

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Speaker 2: tabloid media and our obsession with true crime today.

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Speaker 3: That was very much a huge part of this story.

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Speaker 1: So I love this time period. We're talking about nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty two New Jersey. This is prohibition and crime is

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Speaker 1: up even though prohibition was meant to drive crime down.

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Speaker 1: What is New Jersey like in nineteen twenty two, Before

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Speaker 1: we really dig into the story, set the scene.

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Speaker 2: This takes place in Summerville, New Jersey, which is a

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Speaker 2: very rural, kind of a quaint small town surrounded by

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Speaker 2: farmland in central New Jersey, which is about twenty minutes

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Speaker 2: from New Brunswick, which is where all the characters and

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Speaker 2: the victims in this story lived.

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Speaker 1: So we have two victims here, and before we get

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Speaker 1: into their relationship, let's pull them apart and talk about

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Speaker 1: them separately. So you have an episcopal minister, Edward Hall.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So Edward Hall came from a pretty middle working class background.

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Speaker 3: He was born in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: At a young age, he enrolled at the choir school

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Speaker 2: at Grace Church in Manhattan, which is a very elite

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Speaker 2: institution for boys as young as eight, where they had

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Speaker 2: this rigorous choir training. It was a way for them

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Speaker 2: to get on a path that maybe wasn't as accessible

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Speaker 2: to them in their ordinary sort of working class lives.

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Speaker 3: So it's kind of the background he came from.

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Speaker 2: And I guess, starting at a young age, involved in

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Speaker 2: some way in religion and the church, and he continues

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Speaker 2: on that path. He studies and he goes to college

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Speaker 2: in upstate New York. He studies theology, graduates in one

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Speaker 2: of the largest, I believe, Episcopalian classes in the diocese

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Speaker 2: in New York, and he goes on a path to

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Speaker 2: become an Episcopalian minister. And he's kind of on this

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Speaker 2: upwardly mobile path. He gets to a place in basking Ridge,

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Speaker 2: New Jersey, a church called Saint Mark's, which is about

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Speaker 2: half hour from New Brunswick, and he's kind of the

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Speaker 2: assistant rector there. But then fortune strikes in New Brunswick,

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Speaker 2: New Jersey, at a church called Saint John's, which is

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Speaker 2: one of the other settings for my story. The rector

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Speaker 2: there leaves and the diocese chooses Edward Hall to take

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Speaker 2: his place. So he ends up in Saint John the

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Speaker 2: Evangelist in New Brunswick, which is a church where there's

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Speaker 2: some very it's not a wholly wealthy church. There's a mix,

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Speaker 2: but there's some very very wealthy, powerful families that are

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Speaker 2: very involved in the church. And he finds himself suddenly

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Speaker 2: in there amidst and this is how he ultimately kind

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Speaker 2: of works his way into society, New Jersey society. He

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Speaker 2: ends up marrying this very rich woman from the church

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Speaker 2: who comes from an illustrious family and has lots of

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Speaker 2: money and all that. So he ends up in a

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Speaker 2: member of society. But it was a very much kind

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Speaker 2: of this upwardly mobile path that he took that led

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Speaker 2: him there. One of the open questions about this story

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Speaker 2: is why did he marry Francis Hall. She was considerably

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Speaker 2: older than him at the time, by all accounts, she

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Speaker 2: was probably thirty five. I believe when they married, he

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Speaker 2: was a very charismatic, popular kind of ladies man who.

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Speaker 3: Probably could have had his pick, and I think did have.

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Speaker 2: Other interests in the church, younger women who were a

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Speaker 2: little bit more closer to him, both in age, but

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Speaker 2: both also in class. So I think there's a really

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Speaker 2: big question of was he a gold digger? You know,

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Speaker 2: was this a very calculated move? And you know, as

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Speaker 2: a reverend at the time, that was also an important

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Speaker 2: social position, so I think that he may have felt.

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Speaker 3: Like an outsider.

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Speaker 2: He also in some way had a position of power

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Speaker 2: in that familial dynamic. I think that he certainly benefited

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Speaker 2: from marrying up and I think he very much took

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Speaker 2: to this new lifestyle that was suddenly available to him,

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Speaker 2: living in a mansion and having access to money and

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Speaker 2: wealth and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Do we have a sense for what their dynamic was

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Speaker 1: in the marriage.

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Speaker 2: Everyone in Francis Hall's orbit swore that this was a

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Speaker 2: happy marriage. She swore almost to the very very end,

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Speaker 2: that he was faithful to her. They had this perfectly

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Speaker 2: happy life together. I don't think he was happy in

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Speaker 2: his marriage. It's very clear he was having an affair.

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Speaker 2: There was rumors he had a lot of friction with

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Speaker 2: his brother in laws that they didn't really like him.

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Speaker 2: There was no violence and anything like that, but I

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Speaker 2: think that he was just for a while. Clearly he's

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Speaker 2: fooling around, and I think probably everyone knew it and

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Speaker 2: didn't want to acknowledge it, and.

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Speaker 3: In fact projected the opposite to keep up appearances.

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Speaker 1: Now, the woman that he was found dead with was

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Speaker 1: a woman named Eleanor Mills.

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Speaker 3: So Eleanor Mills, she you know, is the opposite of wealth.

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Speaker 2: She comes from a German family of I think she

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Speaker 2: had twelve siblings, grew up in a small, crammed house.

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Speaker 2: She came from working class immigrant parents, and she did

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Speaker 2: not finish high school. She ended up marrying at seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Her child was born about seven months after the marriage.

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Speaker 2: Clearly this was a shotgun marriage. She ended up with

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Speaker 2: this again, a much older man that she had started

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Speaker 2: seeing when she was about still a teenager, fifteen or

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Speaker 2: sixteen or so, and seeing this guy that was well into.

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Speaker 3: His twenties, she ends up getting pregnant. They marry. He

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Speaker 3: worked in a shoe factory.

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Speaker 2: By the time that the story takes place, he's holding

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Speaker 2: down two kind of dead end jobs. He's a janitor

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Speaker 2: at elementary school and he's also the sexton of this church,

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Speaker 2: and the rector, Edward Hall, actually got him this job

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Speaker 2: as a sex and so he's cobbling together, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's supporting his family on essentially. I think he says

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Speaker 2: he never made more than about thirty eight dollars a

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Speaker 2: week to support his family of four.

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Speaker 3: She had a second kid.

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Speaker 2: So they live in this very small second floor apartment,

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Speaker 2: four room apartment. But Eleanor the thing about her is

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Speaker 2: she's kind of.

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Speaker 3: Caught between the Victorian world.

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Speaker 2: And the change that the nineteen twenties are ushering in,

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Speaker 2: and she really yearns for something more in life. She

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Speaker 2: has big dreams. She wished she had finished school. She

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Speaker 2: wants for her daughter to finish school and make something

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Speaker 2: of herself. And I think that's reflected also in this

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Speaker 2: love affair that she developed with this pastor. Eleanor was

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Speaker 2: also very talented singer. She was in the church choir.

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Speaker 2: That's presumably how this relationship first really sparked.

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Speaker 3: The revera would comes to choir practice.

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Speaker 2: We don't know exactly the genesis of their relationship, but

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Speaker 2: she became very very involved in the church, and even

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Speaker 2: more so when Edward Hall became its rector. But they

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Speaker 2: were two people who were talented singers married to considerably

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Speaker 2: older spouses, wanted something more out of life. We think

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Speaker 2: they were planning to a lope and run away. She

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Speaker 2: wanted to travel. She was very well read. I think

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Speaker 2: that she took the hand that life dealt her, but

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Speaker 2: wanted something much more. And I think that this relationship

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Speaker 2: also kind of gave her access to something that she

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Speaker 2: didn't get from her home life.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that Eleanor's husband knew about the affair.

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Speaker 2: They did have friction in their marriage. It was not

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Speaker 2: a violent marriage, but it was not a happy marriage.

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Speaker 2: They argued a lot, especially over if money was a

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Speaker 2: big friction, a big pressure point in their household. She

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Speaker 2: would save everything she could from her housekeeping budget to

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Speaker 2: try to buy things to liven up the apartment or

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Speaker 2: to make it better. She would take odd jobs. She

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Speaker 2: was so involved in the church. It was known she

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Speaker 2: spent so much time there, so much time with Reverend Hall.

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Speaker 2: The families themselves too, had a very interesting dynamic where

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Speaker 2: the Mills family in some way benefited from their proximity

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Speaker 2: to the Halls. You know, when Eleanor needed an operation,

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Speaker 2: the Hall family loaned and the money to cover this operation.

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Speaker 2: They would mingle as not as social equals, but as

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Speaker 2: church colleagues, and they would sort of give presents to

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Speaker 2: one another.

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Speaker 3: And Jim to some extent, benefited from this arrangement.

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Speaker 1: To Jim's her husband.

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Speaker 2: Is that right, Jim Mills, Eleanor's husband. They were writing letters.

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Speaker 2: I mean everyone in town, it seems, especially when the

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Speaker 2: church knew about this. So it's really hard to believe

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Speaker 2: that either of their spouses were not aware something was

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Speaker 2: going on.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is nineteen twenties. This just seems like ripe for

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Speaker 1: moral outrage from the old biddy's in the church who

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Speaker 1: don't approve of this.

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Speaker 2: I think the church there was it was really a

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Speaker 2: hotbed of gossip. But I think that because this was

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Speaker 2: such a respectable family and also being the rector of

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Speaker 2: the church, I just don't think anyone in the congregation

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Speaker 2: was willing to say anything out loud.

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Speaker 1: You really found that they were planning to Elope, that

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Speaker 1: this was going to be a marriage potentially between the

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Speaker 1: two of them.

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Speaker 2: That it was sort of speculation, but also at one

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Speaker 2: of Eleanor's sisters said that there was some belief that

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Speaker 2: they would have eloped, possibly to Germany. Edward Hall had

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Speaker 2: also squirreled away and his safety posit box after he

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Speaker 2: was murdered was found to have about forty thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: in it, and a ten thousand of that came from

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Speaker 2: when his mother in law died and it was a bequest.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting In the nineteen twenties, it would

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Speaker 1: have been common for, of course, the man of the

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Speaker 1: household to control the purse strings and to just allocate

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Speaker 1: his wife a monthly allowance and he would take control

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Speaker 1: of the rest of the money and pay the bills,

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Speaker 1: since he would be the primary earner. I wonder what

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Speaker 1: happens in a household where the wife is the one

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Speaker 1: who has all of the money through her family. I

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Speaker 1: wonder what her access was like versus what his access

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Speaker 1: was like.

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Speaker 2: One of the other characters that's important to note here

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Speaker 2: is Francis's younger brother, Willie.

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Speaker 3: She had two older brothers.

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Speaker 2: The younger of her two older brothers, Willie Stevens, this

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Speaker 2: very eccentric character, very childlike in some ways, but also

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Speaker 2: very smart in some ways.

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Speaker 3: He read all sorts of brainy books.

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Speaker 2: On metallurgy, and he had this kind of childlike identity,

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Speaker 2: and he did not have access to his own money.

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Speaker 3: His money came through a very meager weekly allowance.

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Speaker 2: And it was said that Edward Hall is actually the

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Speaker 2: one who kind of controlled his finances and that this

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Speaker 2: was a point of friction. So Edward Hall did have

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Speaker 2: some role, I think, in the financial planning of the family,

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Speaker 2: and this also may have led to some of the

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Speaker 2: friction between Francis's brothers and him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me try to summarize and then let's get

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Speaker 1: up to the murders. So the summary for me is

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Speaker 1: that Edward and Eleanor are having an affair. They're both

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Speaker 1: married to older people. They both seem unhappy. Edward and

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Speaker 1: Francis don't have children.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's correct.

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Speaker 1: But Eleanor and Jim have two children and they're in

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Speaker 1: unhappy marriages. They're having an affair, and it sounds like

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Speaker 1: there's the potential that they might elope what brings us

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Speaker 1: to their murders.

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Speaker 2: So they were found dead in a field outside of

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Speaker 2: New Brunswick on September sixteenth, nineteen twenty two.

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Speaker 3: We're now at one hundredth anniversary of this crime.

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Speaker 2: In the days leading up to their murders, Eleanor and Edward,

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Speaker 2: as I said, they wrote love notes to each other.

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Speaker 2: They left them in these kind of secret places in

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Speaker 2: the church and hymnals. There was a certain book on

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Speaker 2: one of his bookshelves in his study where they were

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Speaker 2: said to leave love notes back and forth to one another,

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Speaker 2: and all these gossips in the church.

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Speaker 3: We think that they were aware of this.

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Speaker 2: It may have intercepted one of these love letters. This

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Speaker 2: is kind of the working theory because these letters actually

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Speaker 2: were found, they were recovered, because when the bodies were discovered,

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Speaker 2: some of the love notes were actually scattered amongst the

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Speaker 2: corpses which were positioned in this very fairly mutilated I

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Speaker 2: mean Eleanor's had three bullets to her head, Edward had one.

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Speaker 2: Eleanor's throat was cut from ear to ear to the

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Speaker 2: point where she was nearly decapitated, and her neck was

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Speaker 2: filled with maggots by the time that the bodies were found,

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Speaker 2: but the clothing was completely neat. His arm was outstretched,

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Speaker 2: her head rested on it, her hand was placed atop

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Speaker 2: his leg. One of his calling cards was placed near

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Speaker 2: the bodies. These love letters, So it is this very bizarre,

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Speaker 2: kind of chilling tableau. Some of these other people in

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Speaker 2: the church, there was two characters which are minor characters

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Speaker 2: in the book and probably too much to get into here,

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Speaker 2: were aware of these letters passed one to Francis Hall,

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Speaker 2: who becomes the main suspect eventually, and that was maybe

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Speaker 2: the catalyst that led to this. Then Francis and her

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Speaker 2: brothers were going to confront them at this trysting spot

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Speaker 2: on this lover's lane outside of town. We don't know

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Speaker 2: for sure what happened, but that is kind of the

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Speaker 2: theory that the prosecution ultimately landed upon.

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Speaker 1: At the time so Eleanor's body. That sounds like overkill.

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Speaker 1: She seemed to be the main target and he was there.

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Speaker 1: So what are investigators saying When they arrived to the scene.

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Speaker 2: It was a bumbling forensic situation. These two young people

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Speaker 2: stumbled upon these bodies. They summoned the authorities. The first

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Speaker 2: ones that arrived were just these rank and file patrolmen.

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Speaker 2: Word gets around, it's a small town. Throngs start arriving,

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Speaker 2: crowds start descending on this murder scene. So the crime

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Speaker 2: scene is completely corrupted almost immediately. They didn't take any photos.

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Speaker 2: People were allowed to rifle with the bodies, the clothing,

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Speaker 2: the notes, so everything was pretty much contaminated by the

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Speaker 2: time a detective showed up and did some slightly more

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Speaker 2: sophisticated type of investigation. But again, this is not a

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Speaker 2: big city police department. This is from a rural small

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Speaker 2: town where there's also a jurisdictional discrepancy because, as I said,

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Speaker 2: the two towns that are central here a's New Brunswick,

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Speaker 2: New Jersey, which is in Middlesex County, and Summerville, New Jersey,

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Speaker 2: which is in Somerset County, and the bodies were pretty

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Speaker 2: much found on the border of the two. And you

303
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Speaker 2: have some competition too between these police or so, so

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Speaker 2: it was kind of a mess.

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Speaker 1: If Eleanor's throat has been split, there's blood everywhere. Where's

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Speaker 1: the blood? Which county is the blood in?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: Here's the other thing is that there wasn't a ton

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Speaker 2: of blood and they believe her throat was split post mortem,

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Speaker 2: that these bullet wounds would have killed her. They never

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Speaker 2: ordered a full autopsy. They kind of did a cursory

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Speaker 2: like morg report. And I think there's also a sense of,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Stephens family, they kind of want to

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Speaker 2: shut this up, get it shut up as quickly as possible,

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Speaker 2: so they kind of rushed.

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Speaker 3: To bury Edward as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 1: The Stevens are Francis Hall's family, the dead man's wife

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Speaker 1: now widow, right, that's.

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Speaker 2: Right, And it was all just a complete chaotic mess really.

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Speaker 2: But you know, there was a soil analysis that ew

321
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Speaker 2: SQUIBB what is now ew squib did and this analysis

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Speaker 2: concluded that the amount of blood that they did find

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Speaker 2: at the crime scene, soaked into the ground was enough

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Speaker 2: to substantiate that they would have been murdered in that

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Speaker 2: same spot.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the bugs, because I write about

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Speaker 1: bugs in American Sherlock. So bugs, I'm sure everybody here knows,

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Speaker 1: comes to a body in a certain order. Blowflies usually

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Speaker 1: come first, and then there's beetles. So maggots put it

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Speaker 1: at what twenty four to forty eight hours?

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Speaker 2: So the one person who give the most competent initial

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Speaker 2: inspection was a veterinary surgeon who appeared on the scene,

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Speaker 2: and he also knew Edward Hall, so he was able

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Speaker 2: to identify him. He said at the time he believed

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Speaker 2: that the maggots would have put it at.

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Speaker 3: Thirty six hours.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the Thursday night when Edward and Eleanor both

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Speaker 2: disappeared en route to their secret rendezvous, that would have

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Speaker 2: been about thirty six hours later. We're at Saturday, around

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Speaker 2: ten thirty or so when the bodies are discovered. We

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Speaker 2: believe that probably on Thursday night, that the previous Thursday night,

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Speaker 2: maybe sometime between nine and ten thirty or so, is

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Speaker 2: when they were killed.

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Speaker 1: Whoever murdered them, did they know where, did they follow

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Speaker 1: them or did they know that this was an area

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Speaker 1: that Edward and Eleanora must have frequented before to have privacy.

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Speaker 2: So in their love notes, they referred to their road.

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Speaker 2: There was a bench that they were known to be

349
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Speaker 2: seen sitting together often in this park close to where

350
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Speaker 2: the bodies were found and also where they were found.

351
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Speaker 2: It was kind of an infamous lover lane at the time.

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Speaker 2: It was a little trail off this road called Drusy's Lane,

353
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Speaker 2: which is kind of this dirt road, but it was

354
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Speaker 2: known as a trysting spot.

355
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Speaker 1: What happens with their list of suspects, They're looking at

356
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Speaker 1: the family and the people who surround them first.

357
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Speaker 2: I assume their initial suspects are Jim Mills and Francis

358
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Speaker 2: Hall and her brothers, her family. They kind of pounce

359
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Speaker 2: on Jim first. Again because Francis is this wealthy new widow.

360
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Speaker 1: Well, he's a husband too, he's a.

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Speaker 3: Husband to would they kind of give her a day?

362
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Speaker 2: They kind of they're deferential to her, and their initial

363
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 2: question is fairly deferential.

364
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Speaker 3: But Jim, he had a pretty good alby.

365
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Speaker 2: He was seen out back doing some woodwork on his

366
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 2: porch up till like nine o'clock. He bought a soda

367
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Speaker 2: close to eleven. His kids came home around ten fifteen.

368
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Speaker 2: They said they saw him. There's a window where he

369
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:48,920
Speaker 2: could have made huffed out to this farm and back

370
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Speaker 2: and made it.

371
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Speaker 3: But also he was just such a dud.

372
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Speaker 2: It's kind of even hard to imagine him having the

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Speaker 2: will or an even intellect to carry out a crime

374
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Speaker 2: like this. It just doesn't fit him to me, as

375
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Speaker 2: I've always felt that, it doesn't seem like Jim is

376
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Speaker 2: the has it in him to do this in some way,

377
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,240
Speaker 2: And again like he seems to have known about this

378
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 2: affair for quite a bit and was kind of just

379
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 2: accepting it and maybe benefiting again from the proximity to

380
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Speaker 2: this family.

381
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Speaker 3: But they do.

382
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,360
Speaker 2: They look at Jim, but he never really becomes a suspect,

383
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 2: and they start looking at the family. There's all sorts

384
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,439
Speaker 2: of little bits and pieces that are leading them towards

385
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 2: Francis and her brothers. One is that they were seen

386
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,120
Speaker 2: entering their home late at night on the Thursday into

387
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Speaker 2: Friday morning after the disappearance of the.

388
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Speaker 1: Bodies, all of them, all three of them.

389
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Speaker 2: Just Francis and Willie who lived with her. The other brother, Henry,

390
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 2: lived down the shore.

391
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Speaker 1: And there's a cousin involved to another Henry, right, a cousin.

392
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Speaker 2: There's a cousin, there's another Henry. There's a lot of

393
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:37,920
Speaker 2: Henry's and Edwins.

394
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,320
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, that's what drove me nuts about the nineteen hunders.

395
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Speaker 2: In eighteen hundreds, everyone has the same name. It's hard

396
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 2: to keep track. So Francis said, oh, she said, oh,

397
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Speaker 2: Willie and I we left to go look for Edward

398
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,960
Speaker 2: at the church. Turns out Jim had also gone to

399
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,119
Speaker 2: look for Eleanor at the church late at night, and

400
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 2: he was the sexton, so he had a key, and

401
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 2: they just missed each other. It seems it's all sorts

402
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 2: of little things that are leading them to Francis, but

403
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 2: there's really no there's no smoking gun, and this kind of.

404
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,359
Speaker 3: Drags on for a few weeks.

405
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,800
Speaker 2: Immediately this was huge national news, which is one of

406
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,639
Speaker 2: the other friends of my book, the way that this

407
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,359
Speaker 2: became such a spectacle for the newspapers all over the country,

408
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,679
Speaker 2: especially in New York. But there's pressure from the governor,

409
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 2: there's pressure from the local public. The newspapers are putting

410
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,399
Speaker 2: out these editorials. They need to find progress in the case.

411
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,720
Speaker 2: And only after this very strange witness emerges does the

412
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,639
Speaker 2: prosecution feel that it has something to go on that

413
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 2: they can link this murder to Francis and her brothers.

414
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me what happens next.

415
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 2: Then this woman emerges sort of out of nowhere. Her

416
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 2: name is Jane Gibson. She's another really eccentric character, a

417
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,040
Speaker 2: fascinating character in this case. She lives on a farm

418
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 2: adjacent to the abandoned farm where the murders occurred. She

419
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 2: raises hogs, She raises pigs on this farm. A very

420
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,920
Speaker 2: convoluted backstory. She claims to have run away from home

421
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,840
Speaker 2: and become a writer in the circus, and it's this

422
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,360
Speaker 2: kind of pioneer woman living in this shack and kind

423
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,119
Speaker 2: of raising these pigs, but also you know, and mc

424
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,040
Speaker 2: corn an other things, and it's kind of also, this

425
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,440
Speaker 2: keen business woman basically comes forward and tells the authorities

426
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 2: that she saw the murders. And her story is that

427
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 2: on the night in question, she heard her dog barking,

428
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 2: and she had had theft of some of her corn

429
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: crop recently, and she said, oh, this dog's barking, that

430
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:16,680
Speaker 2: must be the corn thief.

431
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to go out and chase this guy down.

432
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,919
Speaker 2: She goes out, she sees some like wagon kind of

433
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 2: like driving in the distance. She mounts her favorite mule

434
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 2: named Jenny, and she goes out following this wagon down

435
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,640
Speaker 2: Erusi's lane, kind of loses sight of it, and then

436
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 2: kind of gets turned around and suddenly hears voices, and

437
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 2: one thing leads to another. She ends up witnessing this

438
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,159
Speaker 2: murder even though it was dark. She claims she can

439
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 2: identify she saw at one point a car that shined

440
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 2: light along the first part of her journey, shined light

441
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 2: on two people's faces, who she later identifies as Princess

442
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 2: Hall and Henry Stevens. It's a very wild, kind of

443
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 2: hard to believe tail, and they pursue it, and they

444
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 2: take it seriously.

445
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 3: The press coined her the pig Woman. She raised pigs.

446
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 2: She became a very famous you know, if the pig

447
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 2: Woman became a very famous figure, and she clearly relished

448
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 2: the press to an extent. She was both hostile towards

449
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 2: the press, but then she would also accept money for

450
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 2: them to take her photograph. And it looks like both

451
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 2: an easy case and a hard case, because you know,

452
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 2: for the motive is there.

453
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 3: These people had means.

454
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,160
Speaker 2: They could have pulled this off and covered it up right,

455
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 2: but they also have nothing to go on. But kind

456
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 2: of this story of this maybe crazy woman, but that's

457
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,399
Speaker 2: pretty much what they go to the grand jury with.

458
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,679
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the two main players here. So

459
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: Francis and Jim, what are their public reactions to the

460
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 1: murders and to the story in general.

461
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 3: They are completely shocked.

462
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 2: We have complete faith in our spouses and they were friends.

463
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,200
Speaker 2: Jim especially comes out and he's like talking about how

464
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 2: Edward Wall was his best friend and he was so

465
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 2: kind to him and you could never heard a fly.

466
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 3: And Francis and her family are very much saying all the.

467
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 2: Things you'd expect them to say about his faithfulness and

468
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 2: all that. They are putting up such a strong front

469
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: that they cannot imagine what their spouses were doing together

470
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 2: alone on this dirt road. Francis's family is putting out

471
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 2: all sorts of theories, this is a robbery gone awry,

472
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 2: Maybe it was a blackmail game, all sorts of red

473
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,199
Speaker 2: herrings that never really took hold. Everyone is kind of

474
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 2: just playing dumb, really and acting in complete shock and

475
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 2: horror that has happened.

476
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: So, going back to Jane, known in the press as

477
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: the pig Woman, I'm assuming that she could identify both

478
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 1: Francis and Henry because she knew him right.

479
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: It's dicey. I mean, this is a small town. Frances

480
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 2: is a prominent person. At some point she claims that

481
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 2: she had seen her at a tag sale. Her statements

482
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 2: and the way she initially identified them is vaguely within

483
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 2: line with how they looked.

484
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: Aside from Jane as an eyewitness and these love letters,

485
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 1: there's no other forensic evidence. Does anyone in the church

486
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: make a statement.

487
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: I have the transcripts of the original depositions from this case,

488
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 2: and numerous members of the church testified. I saw them

489
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 2: talking arm in arm in New York, in Midtown near

490
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: Times Square.

491
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 3: There was this time down the shore we saw them

492
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 3: splashing them. You know. There's all sorts of stories like that.

493
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 2: The love letters republic because a number of them were

494
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 2: found at the bodies. A second batch of love letters

495
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 2: Charlotte found in a scarf hanging on a door in

496
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 2: the apartment. Those eventually became public. They end up getting

497
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: sold to the newspapers. So at some point the love

498
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: letters are all over America. But Jim says, you know,

499
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 2: oh well, Eleanor she read lots of love stories and

500
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 2: she would write these notes that were just a fiction.

501
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: It was just a game to her. Jim and Francis

502
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 2: just denied that they were valid.

503
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: So under arrest is this right? Francis, Henry, Henry and Willie,

504
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 1: all four of them.

505
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 3: So no one is arrested.

506
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: In nineteen twenty two, when this was first playing out,

507
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 2: they decide to go to the drand jury and seek

508
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: John Doe indictments.

509
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: OK.

510
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: So the John Doe indictments, we believe they are for Francis.

511
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 2: We believe they are for Henry Carpenter, who's the cousin.

512
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 3: And there's a third.

513
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: One who we believe is one of the church spies

514
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: who who might have stirred this up, and may or

515
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: may not have also been near the crime scene that

516
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: night because this is the Lover's Lane. People cowarded there

517
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 2: aside from Edward and Eleanor, and there were very strong

518
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: whispers that another man from the church had been out

519
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: there with a woman from the church in their car

520
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: joy riding.

521
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 1: Wow.

522
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: But they're not officially identified, but it basically it was Francis,

523
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 2: Henry Carpenter, and this man named Ralph Corestein who were

524
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 2: the three John Doe indictments.

525
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 3: When they took this to a grand jury in nineteen

526
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 3: twenty two.

527
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard of a John Doe indictment.

528
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: I think it might speak to like the weakness of

529
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: their case. Yeah, Francis and she went when on the

530
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: last day of the grand jury, she went.

531
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 3: She knew it was her.

532
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: Everyone knew this is who they're putting on, who they

533
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 2: want to bring to court.

534
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: So they took it to a grand jury in nineteen

535
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: twenty two. And I'm assuming Jane Gibson is their main witness,

536
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: So this doesn't seem like a very reliable witness just

537
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 1: in general.

538
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 3: And she's just not credible. Yeah, she was not a

539
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: credible witness.

540
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: She's courting the press.

541
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 2: She seems to be courting the press, and I think

542
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: it was falling apart because the prosecutor he was either

543
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,479
Speaker 2: giving up or he was lowing the case. He grills

544
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 2: her almost like he's working for the defense. So there's

545
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: a question of was the prosecution were they getting paid

546
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: off to make this thing go away? Did he just

547
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: realize by the end that he didn't have a case.

548
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 2: It was a pretty pathetic showing for the prosecution, and

549
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: even some of the things that the press at the

550
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: time expected might have strengthened their case. They did call

551
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 2: some of these gossipy church people who are the types

552
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: of people that we believe were intercepting the letters. The

553
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: woman named Minnie Clark, who is kind of a rival

554
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: of Eleanor Mills in the church, who's also very kind

555
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 2: of fond of Edward Hall, and had seen Francis the

556
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 2: afternoon before they disappeared.

557
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 3: Could she had passed her with a note?

558
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: Then they didn't get into any of these kind of

559
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: like supplemental theories that could have bolstered their case. They

560
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 2: kind of just like barely questioned these people and really

561
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 2: hung it all on Jane Gibson, the pig woman, and

562
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: it just did not go well for the prosecution.

563
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: No indictments, Yeah, no indictments. Okay. So Francis Hall and

564
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: her brothers and her cousin breathe a sigh of relief,

565
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm assuming, and life moves on for them.

566
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 3: Life moves on for a few years.

567
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: And this is where like the subplot of this story

568
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: comes into play. So in the nineteen twenties, all sorts

569
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: of innovations happening and excesses and frivolities. One of them

570
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: is the tabloid newspaper and the tabloids. You know, there

571
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: was only one of them in nineteen twenty two. The

572
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: Daily News, which had came into existence in nineteen nineteen,

573
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 2: was modeled on this successful London tabloid, the Daily Mirror,

574
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: which had been around for a while doing really well.

575
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: And the Daily News becomes this instant success in America

576
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: on the way quickly becomes the best selling newspaper in

577
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 2: the country, and other publishers who had kind of like

578
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: thought this tabloid thing is going to pass, eventually realized that, okay,

579
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: we need to get on board here. So after the murders,

580
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: the Daily News is chugging along. All sorts of other

581
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: murders are happening that are just like made for the

582
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 2: tabloid press, and all sorts of other I mean, this

583
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: was the era of the Fatty Arbuckle, which you know

584
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: well from your book. All sorts of like these jazz

585
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: AD's mega crimes were just like left and right coming

586
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: and the Daily News was like going to town with it. Eventually,

587
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: William Randolph Hurst Yellow Journalism recognizes that he needs to

588
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: start a tabloid too, starts to Tabloid nineteen twenty four

589
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 2: to compete with the Daily News.

590
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: Hirst launches The Daily Mirror.

591
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: A third tabloid a few months later in nine twenty

592
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: four named the New York Evening Graphic comes on the scene,

593
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: and early on all these newspapers are sort of like

594
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: in their mind, they're thinking they'd love to crack open,

595
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: reignite the Hall Mills case and solve the murders because

596
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: that would be huge for them and huge for their circulation.

597
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: The Daily News actually tried in nineteen twenty three to

598
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 2: solve this case. So now two tabloids are at war.

599
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: So this is really like the first tabloid war in

600
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: American history. And Phil Paine's weapon in this tabloid wars.

601
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,959
Speaker 1: And Phil Pain is the editor of Herst Daily Mirror.

602
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 2: He comes back again to the Hall Mills case and

603
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: sets up this investigation and sends his people down to

604
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: New Brunswick and they start digging around, and this is

605
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 2: taking us down into nineteen twenty six, and this gives

606
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: the case a second wind.

607
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: So what happens.

608
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 2: Phil Pain with the Daily Mirror sets up this very

609
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: elaborate investigation and they go down they're finding all these

610
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: circumstantial bits of evidence that were kind of glossed over

611
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: and a lot of so much of it is not

612
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: hard evidence. But they find out things like there was

613
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: a cook that lived in the Hall household at the

614
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: time of the murders and she was this close confident

615
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 2: of the family but was never interviewed.

616
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 3: What's with that?

617
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: And they find things like the chauffeur he said he

618
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: was I'd only been working there for three weeks, but

619
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: we found this postman who said that he'd been getting

620
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 2: mail there for a year.

621
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 3: Isn't that weird?

622
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: All these kind of like circumstantial bits of evidence that

623
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: seemed to be showing that.

624
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 3: Something was up with the Hall family, but really, what

625
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: does it is? They find a.

626
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 2: Guy who had married one of the two former maids

627
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: from the Hall household at the time of the murders.

628
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: Her name was Louis Geist.

629
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 2: This witness comes out of nowhere, and it turns out

630
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: he was kind of like this armchair detective who's also

631
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 2: himself trying to like solve this cold case. And he

632
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 2: meets Louis Geiss and romances her and they get married

633
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: and she doesn't know that he's like this guy that's

634
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 2: really just trying to, like what heck, get information out

635
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: of her and solve this murder. Their marriage somehow goes

636
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 2: awry at some point, but they find this guy and

637
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: he ends up writing a deposition that accuses Louise Geiss,

638
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: the chauffeur Peter Tima, Francis, and her brother Willie of

639
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 2: all going to the side of the murders. Louise Guys

640
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: basically says she accompanied them to Jerusy's lane the side

641
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: of the murders on the murder night, doesn't say she

642
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 2: saw the murders, but allegedly had told her husband that

643
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: she was paid five thousand dollars. We're in the sinulator

644
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: that she was paid five thousand dollars to kind of

645
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: keep quiet about it. So it's a pretty like dodgy character.

646
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: But he basically wants to know the marriage, and he

647
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: clearly is bitter towards Louis Geist. But he comes up

648
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 2: with this story and says she knew all about it.

649
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: They all got paid off. That is the revelation that

650
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: Jelly Mirror really uses to reignite this whole thing.

651
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: Now we're back on Francis Hall.

652
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: We're back on Francis big time.

653
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: So this guy's story is that Francis took her brother Willie,

654
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: along with her housekeeper and her chauffeur to a double

655
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: murder in the middle of nowhere. That's the idea.

656
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: That's the idea. The chauffeur, I guess makes sense because

657
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 3: someone had to drive them.

658
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you would think you could drive yourself for

659
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: this one occasion.

660
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: Don't you think they went to confront them at the farm,

661
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: and you know the theory At this point, The Daily

662
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: Mirror in July of nineteen twenty six does a front

663
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: page story, huge coverage throughout the newspaper. They blow this

664
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: up and immediately I don't want to say in cacahoots,

665
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: but they're working very closely with the prosecution. Phil Payine,

666
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: he's another fascinating character. He's brash, everything you could imagine

667
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: like a tabloid editor to be. He had very close

668
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: proximity to like the Hudson County political machine, which the

669
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: governor was a part of. So he had connections and

670
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: access to these people and kind of worked those connections

671
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: to his advantage. So like, he brings this dossi to

672
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: them before publishing and says, I found all this evidence

673
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: that I think is worth.

674
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 3: A second look.

675
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: He basically compels the State of New Jersey to take

676
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: a close, serious look at this thing. There is one

677
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: other piece of evidence that the Daily Mirror has in

678
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: his possession but is not revealed until a little bit later,

679
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: and there was a calling card of Reverend Halls found

680
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: it at the body. They have tracked down what is

681
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: purported to be this card which has a set of

682
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: fingerprints on it, and these fingerprints they say match those

683
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: of Willie steven So that's kind of the other bombshell

684
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: evidence that they have that eventually comes out that I

685
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: think compelled.

686
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 3: The state to take closer look at this.

687
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: And again, as you know, fingerprint evidence is shaky, very questionable.

688
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: There was one point with the Jailing Mirror put on

689
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: their front page. They blew up the calling card with

690
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: the fingerprints, and on the front page of the paper

691
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: they like had this little graphic pointing to the five

692
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: ridge characteristics that the fingerprint of Willie stevens okay. So

693
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: it wasn't completely flimsy, and it was this like tabloid

694
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: crusade that was in the interest of circulation.

695
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: Well, for any of the fingerprint analysts out there, we

696
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: are not saying that fingerprint analysis is worthless. It's the

697
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: quality of the specimen that you get. And it could

698
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: be that a fingerprint on a calling card could be

699
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: a good specimen for somebody to compare.

700
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely, is also a question of the provenance of the card. Yeah,

701
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: could Willie Stevens have handled his brother in law's card

702
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: at some time? Could have been corrupted over these four

703
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: years they fake the card And those are some of

704
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: the questions that the defense really hammered on.

705
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: Is there a new prosecution team? This is four years

706
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: after the original cases opened.

707
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a new prosecution team. And the local authorities

708
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: are pretty much iced out of this from the beginning. Okay, again,

709
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: because phil Payin had these connections to the governor and

710
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: to the Hudson County political machine, which kind of like

711
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: ran things at the time.

712
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: Okay, where are the spouses at this point? Francis and

713
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: Jim Francis.

714
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: Did what you would expect.

715
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: She went immediately after the grand jury, went to Italy,

716
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: went to the continent for a sabbatical with her best

717
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: friend and was there for like a year. She came back,

718
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: she kind of stayed very private, laid low. But Jim Mills,

719
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: he just went about working as the janitor.

720
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: Raising two kids. By himself though, So what comes of

721
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: this shaky witness who has vengeance against his wife and

722
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: this maybe shaky evidence provided by a newspaper. What does

723
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: the prosecuting team do?

724
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 3: They go after them.

725
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: They eventually indict Henry Stevens I'd mentioned before, he lives

726
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: down the shore. He had this alibi that he was

727
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: on the beach fishing with these other guys who lived

728
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: near him in Lavalllette, New Jersey, which is kind of

729
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: center of the Jersey shorts and you're like next to

730
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: Tom's River. So we had these witnesses that said, yeah, yeah,

731
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 2: we were with him on the beach that night. The

732
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: new prosecutor kind of goes after them and realizes that

733
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: their recollection is not as ironclad as it seems, so

734
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: he kind of starts breaking down Henry's albi, and the

735
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: pig woman again becomes a central figure for the prosecution.

736
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: But she didn't see the housekeeper and the chauffeur, right,

737
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: she said she just saw Willie and Francis.

738
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,239
Speaker 2: Alexander Simpson is the new special prosecutor from Jersey City

739
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: who takes over this case.

740
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: He kind of leaves aside.

741
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: He doesn't really go after the whole Luis Guist's story,

742
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: which is really what reopened the case. What he's more

743
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: interested in with Louise Geist is whether or not on

744
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: the Thursday night of the murders, when Edward disappeared, he

745
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: had gotten a phone call from Eleanor and Luise Geist

746
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: answered the call, and Francis at one point picked up

747
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: the phone, and Louise saw her pick up the phone.

748
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: The prosecutor at this point is trying to establish that

749
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: Luis could not definitively say that Francis hung up the phone.

750
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: And if Francis hadn't hung up the phone, she would

751
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: have heard their plan to rendezvous and known the time

752
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: and the place. So that's kind of what he focuses

753
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: on with Louise.

754
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: So what ends up happening with this case?

755
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 3: It goes to trial.

756
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: Jane Gibson once again is the star witness, the calling

757
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: card comes up a trial in a very big way.

758
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 3: They went after her credibility in a big way.

759
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: And it's still hinged on this story of hers which

760
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: she had changed details all along the way. She had

761
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: different versions of her fateful mule ride, so it was

762
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: very hard to believe her, I think.

763
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: So what ends up happening with the trial. We have

764
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: the one unstable witness who comes on Jane the pig woman.

765
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: Is she convincing or.

766
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: No, she's not convincing.

767
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: There were so many things that came out about her

768
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: story that she had misrepresented, didn't add up that they

769
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: were able to just portray her as not having an

770
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: ounce of credibility and the jury was in agreement about that.

771
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: But there were two jurors who just couldn't get past

772
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: the calling card evidence. But they were ultimately convinced otherwise

773
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: and there was an acquittal.

774
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: Wow, And is that the end of this story?

775
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: It is not the end of the story. Francis and

776
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: her brothers they sued Pirst for libel.

777
00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: Wow.

778
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 3: After this happened cause problems for hearst as well.

779
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: In September of nineteen sixty nine, and Old, I shouldn't

780
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: say old all the time he was sixty seven. He

781
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: was in the hospital Saint Peter's in New Brunswick, which

782
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: happens to overlook the park that was adjacent to the

783
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: farm where all this happened. It had been a big

784
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 2: you know, it had been where Eleanor and Edward met

785
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: on their lover's bench and all that, and he's sitting

786
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: in this hospital room overlooking this park and he thinks

787
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: he's on his deathbed. He has this really bad bone infection,

788
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: his foot got run over. He owned the gas station

789
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: his foot had got run over a few weeks earlier. Separately,

790
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 2: has like a heart attack and he overhears the nurses

791
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: talking about how he might not make it, and he

792
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: has this crisis of conscience and from his hospital room

793
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 2: calls up the New Brunswick Police Department and says, I

794
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: have information about about this murder from nineteen twenty two,

795
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: the Hall Mills murder. And he gives them this story,

796
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: which kind of gets buried for a few months because

797
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: they had other stuff going on. But someone at the

798
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: New Brunswick Police Department, the detectives unit, a few months later,

799
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 2: picks up this police report. And this guy's name was

800
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: Julius Bolag. He was an old Hungarian man from New Brunswick.

801
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: There was a a large Hungarian population there still is.

802
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: And his story is that he was good friends with

803
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: Willie Stevens in New Brunswick. Willy was known to hang

804
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:08,959
Speaker 2: out kind of in the Hungarian quarter.

805
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: And this is Francis brother.

806
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: Francis's brother, Willie Stevens, who was acquitted with Francis and

807
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: her other brother, and he gives this story that Willy

808
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: hated Edward Hall because he controlled his allowance, which was

809
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: a note that they hit in the early in nineteen

810
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: twenty two.

811
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 3: That was something that came up in the newspapers. Said

812
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 3: he hated him.

813
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: Everyone knew about the affair and Willy, he says, hired

814
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: two hitmen to off Edward and that he had unwittingly

815
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: delivered the hit money to these two hitmen wow for

816
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: the family. And he claims that Willy found him on

817
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: the street one day and Sanda need to do something

818
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: for me, and he leads into a car and there's

819
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 2: an older woman and there's a guy who fit the

820
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: description of Francis and Henry Stevens, and they give him

821
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 2: these two envelopes and he goes around to the corner

822
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: a few blocks away and hands it to these two

823
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: local thugs, one of them owned again like a speakeasy

824
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 2: in downtown New Brunswick, and he gives them this money,

825
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: these two envelopes, there's three thousand dollars each in it,

826
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: and Willie later tells him that the job's done when

827
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: he said that they killed them, and so he comes

828
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 2: with this story, which again seems so strange and unbelievable

829
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: and outrageous. But they actually do put a detective on

830
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: this to reinvestigate the case. So this detective named George

831
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: Saloom goes and tries to interview anyone who is still alive,

832
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: anyone who knew, and he does find little bits and pieces.

833
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: Forty eight years later, Yeah, I mean, that's a long time.

834
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: And he does corroborate some details of things that Julius

835
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 2: bolog told him. But they also gave him again you

836
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: can't put too much stock in lie detector tests, but

837
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: they gave him two polygrabs, which he passed with flying colors.

838
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 2: They gave him a psychological evaluation, but again they couldn't

839
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: find He couldn't find the spoken gun. He found a

840
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: record of one of these two gangsters being murdered in

841
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three, and he brings up his newspaper article

842
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,479
Speaker 2: with Freeman of them. One of them is this guy

843
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: who has been identified as the hit man. And he

844
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: points to the guy and he says, yep, that's him.

845
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: So he confirms his name. He confirmed other people that

846
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: this guy spoke about in his story. I mean, it

847
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: makes you wonder why would you have come forward with

848
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: this story? How could he have just made this upright?

849
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 2: And they're never able to find the other hitman of

850
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: the two. Fascinating development that just comes out of nowhere

851
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,479
Speaker 2: decades later.

852
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: So is it wrong that I believe the pig woman

853
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: for some reason because that overkill two gangsters. Are they

854
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: going to really slit some woman's throat?

855
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: I think in the end, in some way, there's too

856
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: much smoke around Francis and the brothers for their not

857
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: to have been something like.

858
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 3: It can't be that everyone was lying or made something.

859
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: I just feel like, yeah, some way it points back

860
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: to them, whether it's through Jane Gibson, whether it's through

861
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 2: Julius Bolag or anything else, because none of the other

862
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: theories really add up. Bill James in his book about

863
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: Popular Crime, he actually this is Bill James, the statistician

864
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: and m man on the train. Yes, he actually makes

865
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 2: this big case for Jim Mills because's the obvious and

866
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: having studied this and knowing these characters so well, I

867
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 2: just don't think that Jim Mills had the will to

868
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: do this.

869
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: There is no satisfying ending for anybody in this story.

870
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: That's right.

871
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: And I think that again, to bring this back to

872
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: what I said at the beginning about ambition, I think

873
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: that this doesn't sound horrible to say, but you know,

874
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: Eleanor her ambition was to live a life that was

875
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: better than what she was given. And I think she

876
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: thought she was She's on the path to doing that

877
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 2: if they were really going to Elope with this man

878
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: that she was in love with, who had had enough

879
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: money to go and set them up. And in Edward

880
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: Hall's case, you know, he had clearly inserted himself into

881
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: this station that was beyond the station he was born into.

882
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: You know, he was ambitious about his own position in life.

883
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 2: And these two people find themselves, they find each other,

884
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 2: and they're trying to both of them want something more,

885
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: both of them want a better life than they have,

886
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: and they're going for it, and the end up getting

887
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: killed for it.

888
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, doctor Anne Burgess

889
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: on being a realter with the FBI.

890
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 4: My very first contact was Roy Hazelwood. Now Roy was

891
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 4: the new agent that was given the task of having

892
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 4: to train in the area of rape picktemology. So he

893
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 4: brought me into the FBI for training lecturing, and in

894
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 4: that process is where I met first Bob Wrestler, who

895
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 4: was really the protege, if you will, of the very

896
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 4: kind of informal profiling program that was going on, and

897
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 4: he then introduced me to John Douglas.

898
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 3: Those are the two.

899
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 4: Agents that are characterized in mind Hunter.

900
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: My new book All That Is Wicked is available for

901
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked

902
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold War Wicked.

903
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer

904
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's c but there's so much more. My book

905
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly

906
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: right tenfold more Media production. The producer is Alexis Mrosi.

907
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen.

908
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is. Our composer, Nick Toga did the artwork.

909
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: Il Sabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark,

910
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

911
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

912
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: tenfold More. And if you know of a historical crime

913
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in

914
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: your family. Email us at info at tenfoldwar wicked dot com.

915
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words