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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan over the course of

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Speaker 1: many years of talking to police officers, not so much detectives,

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Speaker 1: but from people that have been on the beat, as

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Speaker 1: they say, patrolman, people that work a specific zone. They're

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Speaker 1: called different things and different jurisdictions. You always hear them

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Speaker 1: say every single rollout, every single location they're summoned to.

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Speaker 1: Though some of the cases might appear to be the

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Speaker 1: same on the surface that they go out to work,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing out there that is the same over and

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Speaker 1: over and over again. Everything has some little nuance, some

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Speaker 1: little change. And most of the time, when you show

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Speaker 1: up at a scene and you hear a lady screaming

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Speaker 1: and you see blood pouring out of her leg and

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Speaker 1: you walk on through the house and you see an

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Speaker 1: individual that has been restrained and executed, you can't take

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Speaker 1: the measure of it.

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Speaker 2: Initially.

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Speaker 1: First off, you're afraid. If you're the police officer, you're afraid.

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Speaker 2: You're afraid.

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Speaker 1: There might be other dangers that lurk around every corner,

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Speaker 1: But you have to get her out of there to

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Speaker 1: make sure that she gets a medical attention that she needs.

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Speaker 1: But when you begin your assessment of the scene, sometimes

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Speaker 1: things just don't up. Today we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: a lady named Deborah Fraser and a tale that she

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Speaker 1: told the patrolman that at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: took them down a path that I can assure you

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Speaker 1: when their watch started, they had not anticipated being upon.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. I've

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Speaker 1: gotten to the point my life, Dave, where I realized

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Speaker 1: that the phrase I didn't come down with the last

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Speaker 1: drop of rain means more and more. It's really hard

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Speaker 1: for someone to defeat my so called BS meter. That

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Speaker 1: comes with age, it comes with experience. You don't have it.

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Speaker 1: And I can tell you and I have had conversations

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Speaker 1: off Mike for a long time now where we've talked

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Speaker 1: about this that we're not as naive. Our muscle twitch

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Speaker 1: might not be like it used to be when we

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Speaker 1: were kids, might not can run up a hill as

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Speaker 1: well as we once could. But there's something about your

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Speaker 1: senses that sharpen, and you see enough BS come across

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Speaker 1: your decks, your meeter becomes you acutely attuned to that.

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Speaker 1: And I think that this case today is certainly first off,

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Speaker 1: it's filled with forensics, but it's also filled with stuff

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Speaker 1: that you fertilize the garden with too.

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Speaker 3: I think it was an interesting plan that Deborah Frasier

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Speaker 3: came up with. It really was think about it. She

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Speaker 3: meets this man while she's working at Kroger, and I

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Speaker 3: think about Thomas Waddell. He's sixty six years old, she's

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Speaker 3: thirty six, and they've been in an on and off

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Speaker 3: in relationship for a number of years, even though there's

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Speaker 3: a thirty year age difference. I mentioned they were working

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Speaker 3: together at Kroger because I always wonder how does somebody

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Speaker 3: get into a romantic relationship with that big of a

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Speaker 3: difference of age. Yeah, and it really comes down to

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Speaker 3: to him for many other things, you know. And he

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Speaker 3: apparently liked helping people that were kind of down and

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Speaker 3: out on their luck. And anyway, Donna Fraser and Thomas

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Speaker 3: Waddell were in a relationship of sorts, and Dona Fraser

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Speaker 3: also had another person she was involved with as well romantically.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you pointed me into the direction of

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Speaker 3: the statement of facts, because I'm going to give you

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Speaker 3: the end of the story. This is the Paul Harvey

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Speaker 3: instead of the rest of the story. The end of

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Speaker 3: the story, because here it is. After days of planning.

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Speaker 3: On the evening of August ninth, twenty twenty three, Deborah

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Speaker 3: Fraser stood behind Thomas Waddell as he sat in his recliner.

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Speaker 3: She raised his twenty two caliber pistol, aimed it at

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Speaker 3: the back of his head, and executed him in his

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Speaker 3: living room.

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Speaker 2: Those are the facts of the case.

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Speaker 1: Those are the facts of the case.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but the story that she told.

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Speaker 3: She calls nine to one one, there's a burglar you

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Speaker 3: had happening right now at my boyfriend's house.

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Speaker 2: Send help right away.

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Speaker 3: Oh wait a minute, pop, Yeah, gunshot in the background.

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Speaker 2: I've been shot in the hope in a small town.

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Speaker 3: The entire police force, on and off duty, showed up,

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Speaker 3: but thankfully the chief of police got there first, so

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Speaker 3: the most experienced guy, at least the most responsible. I

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Speaker 3: don't know how chief works, but I would think if

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Speaker 3: the chief shows up and take's command of the zine,

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Speaker 3: you've got a good investigation going on.

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Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he can throw, he can throw whatever resource. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to wait around for the resources to show up.

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Speaker 1: Your primary resource is there. And if the chief understands

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Speaker 1: that he's out of his depth or his department rather

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Speaker 1: is out of their depth. It's not an insult to

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Speaker 1: their intelligence in any way. It's literally comes down to resources.

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Speaker 1: In a smaller jurisdiction, you want to get in this

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Speaker 1: case happened in Ohio, so you want to get what's

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Speaker 1: referred to as BCI involved, which is the Bureau of

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Speaker 1: Criminal Investigations, that's the state, and they eventually do become

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Speaker 1: involved in this because I'm sure that, look, this is

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Speaker 1: one of those cases that when you're old and retired

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Speaker 1: from the police force, this will be one of the

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Speaker 1: cases like if somebody comes up to you and finds

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Speaker 1: out you are a cop and they'll say, what's the

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Speaker 1: most bizarre case you ever? Yeah, exactly that small town.

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Speaker 1: I guarantee hands are going to go up and people

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Speaker 1: will say, hey, I got one for you, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it is it is that bizarre. But Dave, you

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Speaker 1: know the thing about it is this this man, mister Waddell,

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Speaker 1: was found in his apartment and he's he's essentially been

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Speaker 1: kind of wrapped and contained. He's got duct tape that's

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Speaker 1: wrapping him up. He's been executed, and here's look at

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Speaker 1: you know, we always say this in in uh, when

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Speaker 1: we're teaching or or when we're writing reports, there's and

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Speaker 1: it's wrote. It's like you could take it and just

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Speaker 1: kind of boilerplate stamp every report with this, or conversely,

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Speaker 1: say you did see something, but most reports are going

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Speaker 1: to say we saw no signs of forced entry or struggle.

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Speaker 1: They they didn't, they didn't. To try to marry up

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Speaker 1: with what miss Fraser was putting forth here that there

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Speaker 1: were two assailants, she actually named them as white males,

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Speaker 1: so she's getting more more specific with her descriptor. It's

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Speaker 1: not just two random dudes, two white males. They are

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Speaker 1: burglarizing the place and oops, I've been shot.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I was going to ask you about the bushy haired

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Speaker 3: stranger and very quickly the story you're laying out that

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Speaker 3: Donna Fraser told them. I wonder sometimes how quickly do you?

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Speaker 3: I mean, you're I put you as part of the

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Speaker 3: investigation and know you're the forensic person baker right right. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: you know you do have a lot of forensics here,

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Speaker 3: because according to Donna Frasier's story, when she calls nine

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Speaker 3: to one one, she claims to have been shot in

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Speaker 3: the leg. She claims that there were two other burglars

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Speaker 3: in the house that left her boyfriend, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 3: he's found in a back room of his own apartment,

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Speaker 3: wrapped in a blanket and a garbage bag, and it's

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Speaker 3: all secured with duct tape. And they hear the gunshot

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Speaker 3: on the nine to one one call. This is what

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Speaker 3: they're walking into. And I'm thinking, how did they uncover

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Speaker 3: it to find out that she stood behind mister freu

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Speaker 3: Waddell and shot him in the head.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, here's here's the other piece to this is that

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Speaker 1: these perpetrators apparently left their weapon behind, because there's a

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Speaker 1: twenty two caliber revolver lying on the floor adjacent to

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Speaker 1: her as she's bleeding out on the floor having been

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Speaker 1: shot in the shot in the leg. One of the

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Speaker 1: things always fascinates me with these staged events like this

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Speaker 1: where people will self inflict injuries. You know, you see

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Speaker 1: you see old movies and stuff where people will try

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Speaker 1: to make themselves look beat up where they'll throw theirselves

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Speaker 1: down the set of steps or something like that to

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Speaker 1: bruise themselves all up and everything, but with gunshot wounds

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Speaker 1: in particular. And I know I'll get some blowback from

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Speaker 1: this and say that leg shots are not fatal. They

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Speaker 1: are fatal. I've worked them. You know, if you're shot

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Speaker 1: in the leg, if you clip a femeral artery, there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a good chance you could bleed out. But

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Speaker 1: let's just it's not like being shot center mass in

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Speaker 1: the chest. It's you see a lot of these stage

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Speaker 1: crimes where people will shoot themselves in the periphery, you know,

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Speaker 1: they shoot themselves in the hand. In a case in

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Speaker 1: Georgia famously, where where a deputy sheriff had shot himself

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Speaker 1: in the palm of the hand in order to make

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Speaker 1: it look like he was fighting with an assailant, it

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Speaker 1: just so happens that the weapon turned out to be

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Speaker 1: his own weapon. That and he was a drug seeker.

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Speaker 1: And isn't it amazing. They don't ever get shot in

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Speaker 1: the chest or the abdomen. It's always like in the

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Speaker 1: leg or the arm or maybe the shoulder, you know,

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Speaker 1: to kind of cover these things up. They certainly don't

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Speaker 1: shoot themselves in the head.

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Speaker 3: If somebody shoots themselves in the leg and they're trying

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Speaker 3: to claim that the shot was from somebody else, can

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Speaker 3: you tell how close they were?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because look your arms have a if it's self inflicted,

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Speaker 1: your arms have a terminal distance. You know you can't

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Speaker 1: you can't extend beyond that. I guess you could if

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Speaker 1: you set up some kind of apparatus. And I've had people,

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Speaker 1: I've actually had suicides. I've worked where people have set

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Speaker 1: up a weapon that has a rather complex mechanism. When

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Speaker 1: another individual opens the door, it actually initiates the firing

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Speaker 1: sequence and shoots the person that's sitting there in the

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Speaker 1: chair in anticipation of the person arriving. And yes, that

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Speaker 1: does happen, but that requires try quite a bit of planning,

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Speaker 1: and let's face it, precisions.

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Speaker 2: Behind a lot of evidence too.

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Speaker 1: Yes you do. You know you've got this contraption, And

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Speaker 1: so I don't know that that's necessarily set up to

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Speaker 1: stage as much as it is in the case of suicide,

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Speaker 1: to punish the other person that's opening the door. So

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Speaker 1: that's a completely separate set of facts.

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Speaker 3: So you get talking this wounded leg and say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I didn't come from across the room.

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Speaker 1: No it didn't. Because let's just say, now we're dealing

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Speaker 1: with what's referred to as a twenty two caliber revolver,

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Speaker 1: and we can get into that more in just a moment.

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Speaker 1: But let's just say she's got something with an exceedingly

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Speaker 1: long barrel length. And there's not a lot of them

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Speaker 1: out there that are on market that you're going to purchase.

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Speaker 1: But I suppose there's something with a really But even

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Speaker 1: if it's got a long barrel length, that powder along

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Speaker 1: with the projectile, of course, but the powder itself is

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Speaker 1: what I'm interested in. It's going to be contained and

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Speaker 1: it'll come to a folk point that delivers on target.

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Speaker 1: So let's just say if she's able to extend the

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Speaker 1: muzzle length even out to eighteen inches twenty inches away

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Speaker 1: from her body when she initiates that firing sequence, probably

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Speaker 1: pulling it, well, I guess she could take it. If

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Speaker 1: it all depends on where she shot in the leg

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Speaker 1: on the inner thigh. She could certainly hold it normally

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Speaker 1: and fire into her thigh. That way, you're going to

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Speaker 1: have something that's left behind. Now, defense can argue in

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Speaker 1: a case like that, we don't you understand my client

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Speaker 1: was struggling, Well, Dave, you mentioned just a moment ago

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Speaker 1: that the report of the weapon could be heard by

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Speaker 1: the nine to eleven operator. That's not like a struggle

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Speaker 1: ensued a protracted it. You know, the nine to eleven

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Speaker 1: operators saying yeah, I heard furniture being broken, and people

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Speaker 1: say no, no, no, no. What they heard was oh wait, pain,

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Speaker 1: you know, like this, And so that means that the

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Speaker 1: thing is shot pretty immediately once this call is initiated.

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Speaker 1: So that's very fascinating this case. Yeah, and we can

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Speaker 1: do range of fire, and I can guarantee you in

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Speaker 1: this case, they certainly did, and what they found out

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Speaker 1: just didn't quite job with what Miss Brent Fraser was

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Speaker 1: laying down to this point, Dave, we've talked about the

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Speaker 1: potential of self inflicted gunshop when with a twenty two

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Speaker 1: caliber revolver, that is as it applies to Miss Fraser.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we're kind of dancing around this topic

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Speaker 1: of this poor man, mister Waddell, who, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I think had recently retired. I'm not mistaken.

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Speaker 2: That was the saddest part of all of this, Joe, is.

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Speaker 1: You live, you live your life, and you get to

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Speaker 1: this point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you've got a woman in your life that

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Speaker 3: on again, off again relationship, but she's considerably younger. But

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Speaker 3: ultimately in his head, you know, this man was one

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Speaker 3: of those people that liked to help people. That was

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Speaker 3: the one thing that was consistent. It said, mister Wadell

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Speaker 3: just liked helping people that needed help. But one of

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Speaker 3: the things that did catch me here, Joe and I'm curious.

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Speaker 3: Officers are on the scene and they immediately cleared the scene. Okay,

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Speaker 3: we know that there's no arm burglars in the house anymore.

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Speaker 3: We do have a wounded victim right now. We believe

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Speaker 3: she is the victim and she's hurt. But there's also

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Speaker 3: the body of a guy in the back of the house,

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Speaker 3: back of the apartment, and he's been wrapped up. As

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Speaker 3: we mentioned, he was wrapped in a blanket, a big

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Speaker 3: garbage bag, and duct tape. Now it's possible that he

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Speaker 3: might not be dead. He's wrapped up in all of that.

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Speaker 3: But do the police unwrap him right there and determined

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Speaker 3: what's going on with his body or do they look

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Speaker 3: at him and go, okay, there's some there's a body

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Speaker 3: in here.

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Speaker 2: They're not alive. I mean, how how does that take place?

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Speaker 3: I'm curious because they got to determine if he's alive

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Speaker 3: or dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they have to, and they have to. It all

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Speaker 1: depends on what their comfort level is.

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Speaker 2: Really with this. Yeah, it's not an sop on that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well for me, if I'm coming across a wrapped

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Speaker 1: body like this, I'm going to air more toward it.

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Speaker 1: We at least need to assess externally if we can

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Speaker 1: hear through this. The EMTs need to if you can

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Speaker 1: find his chest, see if you can listen for a pulse,

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Speaker 1: make sure you got your gloves are here for you know,

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Speaker 1: the heart sounds or maybe respirations. But to the e MTS,

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Speaker 1: I would say keep your gloves on because if he's

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Speaker 1: wrapped in plastic, all right, that's a non poor surface.

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Speaker 1: So that means that any kind of fingerprint latent print

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Speaker 1: can be transferred onto that bag. And it's not some

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Speaker 1: thing you would necessarily want to cut through, because it's

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Speaker 1: so fine and so very fragile that you can take

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Speaker 1: those bags and if you take them off very carefully

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Speaker 1: in a controlled environment where everybody's gloved up, they're paying

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Speaker 1: attention to precisely what they're doing, you can retrieve prints

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Speaker 1: off of those bags very easily. And you've also got

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Speaker 1: this thing involving tape, and the exterior of the tape

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Speaker 1: is very important as well, because again it kind of

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Speaker 1: has a plastic coating on the outside of it. You

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Speaker 1: can lift a print there. But you know what's even

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Speaker 1: more important is the adhesive side. And if you'll think

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Speaker 1: of the adhesive on the sticky side of duct tape,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot like messing around with putty when you're

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Speaker 1: a kid, any kind of you know, play do o

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Speaker 1: or silly putty or whatever you're going to leave behind.

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Speaker 1: It's almost what we're to is a plastic print where

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Speaker 1: you can, if you hold it just right, you can

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Speaker 1: actually make out the friction ridge lines the details of

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Speaker 1: the print itself in that And so you can if

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Speaker 1: you use something like iodine fuming in that particular sensuation.

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Speaker 2: Explain what that is.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's you apply I dying or something similar to it.

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Speaker 1: I think you can use ninhydrone as well as one

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Speaker 1: of the other things that fingerprint people use, and it

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Speaker 1: will literally freeze that fingerprint in that position. It won't

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Speaker 1: go anywhere, and it has kind of a brown appearance

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Speaker 1: to it after they do that. If the print examiner

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Speaker 1: is really good, they'll be able to pick up on

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Speaker 1: what we refer to as the minutia and the print,

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Speaker 1: which are like the little details in the friction ridge

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Speaker 1: lines that are left behind. You have things like pores, crossovers, deltas,

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Speaker 1: ending ridges. I could go on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: There's all these bits of ANUSI and you do a

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Speaker 1: general classification on the print. You know, people hear whirls

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Speaker 1: and loops and all these sorts of things, and then

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Speaker 1: you tighten that down as you go through your assessment

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Speaker 1: of it so you can recover that stuff off this

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Speaker 1: guy's body. And what's fascinating about this is that they

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Speaker 1: had a deputy corner out at the scene. Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: and that individual is speaking with the forensic pathologists, and

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist tells them, look, don't unwrap the body.

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Speaker 1: Bring the body into the morgue in its pristine state.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that we like to do in these cases,

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Speaker 1: particularly if somebody has been down, and this is one

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Speaker 1: other thing I fail to mention. I think that it's important.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about after death assessment. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that we have these seven cardinal signs of death that

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Speaker 1: we look for. In one of those cardinal signs, well,

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Speaker 1: one is lack of respiration, all right, that's one of

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Speaker 1: the cardinal signs. But another thing that we look for

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Speaker 1: are postmortem changes. Now you can't necessarily see through a

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Speaker 1: plastic bag and blood is settled on a body, but

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Speaker 1: what you can appreciate is rigidity in the body. If

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Speaker 1: the body is stiff, you can feel that through a

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Speaker 1: plastic bag and you can say, yeah, this person's gone

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Speaker 1: on to their reward. But the forensic pathologist, they requested

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Speaker 1: that the body be brought to the morgue in its

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Speaker 1: pristine shape, unwrapped totally. And when you get that body

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Speaker 1: into a controlled environment where you have perfect lighting, and

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Speaker 1: they have in most autopsy suites there'll be surgical style lighting,

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Speaker 1: so it blasts out all of the shadows that are possible, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that they can possibly do because you know, with surgical

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Speaker 1: lighting you need perfect clarity so that you can see

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Speaker 1: every little detail. And you bring a photographer that's in

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Speaker 1: there and you can capture everything on there. You can

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Speaker 1: pick up on some little nuances you might not otherwise

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Speaker 1: see at the scene, and the forensic pathologist is aware

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Speaker 1: of that. But probably most fascinating of all relative to

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Speaker 1: the decision that this forensic pathologist made, and it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily something I would normally agree with, but I understand

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Speaker 1: it that forensic pathologist felt as though that if they

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Speaker 1: could receive that body still wrapped up and in its

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Speaker 1: pristine state, he could get an estimation of post mortem interval,

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Speaker 1: that is, how long had mister Whitell been deceased. And

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Speaker 1: we all know that one of the most important points

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Speaker 1: along this entire case is this interesting nine to eleven

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Speaker 1: call in her statements, that is Miss Frasier's statements from

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Speaker 1: the scene. And as it turned out, the forensic pathologist

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Speaker 1: was right. Twelve hours. That's half a day. For those

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Speaker 1: of you counting math hard, I know it's hard for me, man,

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Speaker 1: it really is. I was never a great math student,

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Speaker 1: but I do know that twelve hours is half a day.

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Speaker 1: What can you do with twelve hours? If you had

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Speaker 1: twelve hours of what could you do with it? Well,

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Speaker 1: if you're a scheming murderer, I suppose that you could

355
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Speaker 1: try to get your story straight. I suppose you could

356
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Speaker 1: kill someone maybe on the front end of that twelve hours,

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Speaker 1: and then contemplate how in the world are you going

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Speaker 1: to handle this moving forward, because you're left with a

359
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Speaker 1: body that someone is going to have to answer for.

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Speaker 1: In this case, I think that the forensic pathologists made

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Speaker 1: the right choice here.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's amazing to me how many things have

363
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Speaker 3: to go right in an investigation to lead you down

364
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Speaker 3: a path. This was not something that the suspect here,

365
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Speaker 3: Deborah Fraser thought of. In the space of thirty minutes,

366
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Speaker 3: Sin said, I'm done with this guy. I you know,

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Speaker 3: this was a long game here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: She During the investigation, police uncovered a number of things,

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Speaker 3: because the first thing they do nowadays is start looking

371
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Speaker 3: at your your cell phone, your computers, things like that

372
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Speaker 3: to find out what your history is, your search history,

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Speaker 3: what have you been looking at, what have you been

374
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Speaker 3: reading online? What are some of the things that are happening.

375
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Speaker 3: And in this case, I mentioned at the very beginning

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Speaker 3: that while she had an on again, off again relationship

377
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Speaker 3: with mister Waddell, with Thomas Waddell, she also had another boyfriend,

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Speaker 3: and the other boyfriend was not aware of mister Waddell.

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Speaker 3: Mister Waddell don't think he was aware of the other

380
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Speaker 3: guy either. So Deborah Fraser was able to play things

381
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Speaker 3: in such a way that she was able to convince

382
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Speaker 3: her boyfriend to pose as a bank fraud investigator and

383
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Speaker 3: started calling Thomas Waddell. Now, remember Deborah Fraser is thirty

384
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Speaker 3: six years old. Mister Waddell, her boyfriend is sixty six

385
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Speaker 3: and recently retired, and now he's getting calls from a

386
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Speaker 3: guy about fraud regarding his account. And the man making

387
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Speaker 3: the calls doesn't realize he is calling Deborah Fraser's sometime boyfriend.

388
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Speaker 3: He doesn't really know why he's doing it. The second boyfriend,

389
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Speaker 3: So there are now three people involved in this. Deborah

390
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: Fraser playing her second boyfriend into doing things to terrorize

391
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 3: her first boyfriend to get information obviously about a bank account,

392
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Speaker 3: and find out that Deborah Fraser created a fake fraud

393
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: email account where she posed as a fraud claims representative

394
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: who was reaching out to Thomas Waddell, the victim. Here,

395
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 3: investigators ended up concluding that the motive for the murder

396
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: is financial gain. The second boyfriend gave Deborah Fraser rides

397
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 3: the night of the killing, The second boyfriend did not

398
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 3: know Fraser was in a relationship with mister Waddell, and

399
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,959
Speaker 3: the second boyfriend was manipulated by Fraser into making the

400
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: calls to Thomas Waddell. So we have Deborah Fraser with

401
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: a current new boyfriend terrorizing her current old boyfriend into

402
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 3: a financial ploy that required her to get all this

403
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 3: information and then kill Thomas Waddell. But they found out

404
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: something else justin Scott Morgan and in their online research

405
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: they call it the forensic search of Fraser's phone. Yeah,

406
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: they found that she researched how to load a revolver

407
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 3: and how to uncock the hammer on a revolver. They

408
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 3: also found that she researched how long does GSR stay

409
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Speaker 3: on the skin Joe? That was searched at eight sixteen

410
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 3: am on August tenth, about five hours before she called.

411
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Speaker 2: Nine to one one.

412
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Speaker 3: Yeah, what is GSR for those of us who don't

413
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 3: know the technical issues here.

414
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's actually a test that we run to

415
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: see if someone has not necessarily fired a weapon, but

416
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: has been in proximity close enough to a weapon so

417
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: that the gunshot residue. The GSR essentially comes in lights

418
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: on these exposed areas of the body. Most of the time.

419
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: What you're going to be looking for if someone has

420
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: held a weapon in their hand. If you think about

421
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: the kind of U shape that your handmakes with the

422
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: thumb and the index finger, if you placed a weapon

423
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: in there, pistol, perhaps that when you initiate the firing

424
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: sequence that there's going to be this cloud that kind

425
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: of rises up and settles down, and so this agent

426
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: that they're applying to the hand, what they're looking to

427
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: do is to try to find the presence of barium, antimony,

428
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: and lead, and all of those are components of propellant,

429
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: which is what you know sends the projectile down range.

430
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: And it's really hard to explain away the presence of

431
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: those three elements of the package as it applies to

432
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: gunshot residue. It's hard to you know. You can say, well,

433
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was using a lead pencil and

434
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: I was sharpening a lead pencil and I got a

435
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: lead on my hand. All right, how do you account

436
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: for the bearing in the antimony? Well, they all go

437
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: into the process of manufacturing, you know, the propellant, and

438
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,479
Speaker 1: so you believe that it's going to be there. Now

439
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: this is superficial. Okay, this is superficial. So it's fragile.

440
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: One of the things we try to do at scenes

441
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 1: is if we have a suspect, you know, we we

442
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: try to keep them away from water and prevent them

443
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: from washing their hands just until they can get that

444
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: GSR test. And as a matter of fact, she was

445
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: so acutely aware of it, Dave that that she kind

446
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: of flipped her story around here. She tried to state that, oh, yeah, well,

447
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: the reason I would have just you know, if you're

448
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: going to do the test on me, the reason that

449
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: you would find it on me is that I had

450
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: my hands down trying to protect myself when I was

451
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: shot in the leg, and that the shower of powder

452
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: came down on me and it contained the barium and

453
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: antimony in the lead. And you know, that's one of

454
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 1: the things we try to try to understand, you know,

455
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: is the position. That's why it's so important to try

456
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: to understand the deposition of say any kind of powder

457
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: deposition that's on the that's visible, you know, where you

458
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: get unburned grains of powder, gunpowder that's embedded in the skin,

459
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: you can determine a range of fire. But she's trying

460
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: to account for all of this stuff as she's moving

461
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: down the road in her mind. But one things she

462
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: didn't count on was the fact that it go back

463
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 1: to the forensic pathologist, is that he was able to

464
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: determine because they did not unwrap that body. So it's

465
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: not perfect calculus, but he was able to determine that

466
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: this individual had been dead for at least twelve hours

467
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: okay when this nine one one call was was initiated,

468
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: and so that that bit of science skews the entire timeline,

469
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: and he would have been assessing, well, he would have

470
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: done a body temperature more than likely to try to

471
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: assess that, to try to understand if the person had

472
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: essentially assumed room temperature, because a lot if.

473
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: They're wrapped in a blanket and a bag and duct

474
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: table with that not hold some of the body.

475
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: Would contain some of the heat. And so you're going

476
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: to have to when you're doing that formula and you're

477
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: trying to understand that, you're going to have to do

478
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: that calculation within it, and it's going to skew the data.

479
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: I think it will, because if the body was just

480
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: laying out, say exposed, doesn't have to be nude, but

481
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: just exposed. You know what does mama tell you when

482
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: you're little. You got to put a hat on your

483
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: head because you're going to lose heat. You got to

484
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: put mittens on your hands because you're gonna lose heat.

485
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: You got to put shoes, socks and shoes on you're

486
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: gonna lose heat. We lose it out of our extremities.

487
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: You retain it in your core for the longest period

488
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: of time. But theoretically what's held forth is that we

489
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: retain the longest time that we retain the heat that

490
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: is generated by the energy that our body produces. In

491
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: life maximum is twelve hours day. After that, your body

492
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: essentially becomes inanimate. It becomes like a desk or a

493
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: chair or anything else that occupies it space. It's impacted

494
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: by the environment in which it rest at that point

495
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: in time. And so that bit of valuable information went

496
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: into the police when they're examining her. When I say

497
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: examining her, I'm not talking about her physical person, but

498
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: when they're doing their investigation and they're trying to marry

499
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: up her alibi. That's one of the reasons I amsized

500
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: to my students all the time. It's so important for

501
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: PMI post mortem interval that you glean that information because

502
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: somebody's going to try to alibi themselves at some point toime.

503
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: And when you look at a body and you see

504
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: that body is at full rigidity or lividity is fixed,

505
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: or the core body temperature is skewed based upon the

506
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: timeline they're giving you. You can look to the science

507
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: and say, this is the ultimate light detector right here.

508
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: This is not a polygraph. This is a science telling

509
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: me that what you're saying doesn't compute with what the

510
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: body is telling me.

511
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: But don't investigators Still they look at what they're seeing

512
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 3: in front of them, But they still have to investigate

513
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: the story. They're told. They have witness and they still

514
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 3: have to. Okay, she said there were two burglars in

515
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: here and that she came in. They have to investigate

516
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: it based on this is what she said happened. Now, granted,

517
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: nothing in here looks legit to her story, but we

518
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: still have to investigate, which means as they're going to

519
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: research everything, they're pulling anything that costs could possibly have

520
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: been touched by one of the two alleged burglars that

521
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: were in the house. It all happened bam, bam bam,

522
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 3: according to her story. So there was a lot going

523
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 3: in in this apartment before the police arrived, and in

524
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: minutes actually, because again on the nine to one one call,

525
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: well what did we hear? We heard the gunshot? We've

526
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: got all police on the scene. Very quickly, including the

527
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: chief of police who arrived first. And you've got a

528
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: body back there now that is wrapped up, you know,

529
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: the blanket, the garbage bag, duct tape. There's a lot

530
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: happening in this apartment in a very short period of time.

531
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: So, yeah, what did you do?

532
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: I mean, you're the forensic guy. What do you do

533
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 3: when you walk into that.

534
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: First Off, you're going to be very careful in this environment.

535
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: You're going to get her out of there, which they did.

536
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: They essentially evacuated her out to the to the extractor

537
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: and took her to the hospital to treat her for

538
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: this this gunshot one.

539
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: How bad was the gunshot wound in her leg?

540
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: It was bad enough so that she was pooling blood

541
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: around her. But that's it's it's almost an elementary procedure

542
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: when you go into an emergency room. Particularly if you

543
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: can rule out that she hasn't severely broken a bone

544
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: and she hasn't clipped an artery, they can patch her

545
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: up pretty quickly, so it's not as ghastly as it sounds.

546
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: It's not going to be like her leg's been blown

547
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: off or something like this. That's not what happened. And

548
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: the weapon that's used is a very it's as far

549
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: as calibers of weapon, it's on the low end. It's

550
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: a twenty two caliber on it's a small repellent gun

551
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: from a pellet Yeah, from a pellet gun, and which

552
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: is zero point one seven seven there. And look that

553
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: don't come at me with all the numbers because there's

554
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that's in between there. But the

555
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: most common uh so, the the point two two is

556
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: very small and looks small, small as deadly as well.

557
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: You can't think that it's not. But it was sufficient

558
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: to the task for mister Waddell that when.

559
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 3: He would defined with him when they actually unwrapped him, Joe,

560
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: I mean, now he's in the morgue right about the

561
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: Emmy's office. I don't know the right term, but when

562
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: they started wrapping him, there's going to have to be

563
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 3: a lot of documentation, right.

564
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, there would be, and you know how how he

565
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: was packing. And also I'm very curious, which they've never

566
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: truly revealed in this case that if you look at

567
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: someone that has First off, I've never heard of someone

568
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: being wrapped up that is a victim of a burglary.

569
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: It sounds I've heard of people I've had.

570
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 3: I didn't think about that at all. I did not

571
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 3: think about that.

572
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's just it's not like this is

573
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: a kidnapping or a body dump I have now, I

574
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: have worked cases, some of the most brutal cases where

575
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: a homeowner came home and they surprised a burglar and

576
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: they were beaten to death. But the burglar doesn't go

577
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: to the trouble of wrapping and let's face it, packaging

578
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: the body. So one of the most important things is

579
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: did that round because he was shot in the back

580
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: of the head. You famously said at the beginning of

581
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: this episode, Dave, that they talked about how she stood

582
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: behind him with his that's the possessive his weapon, and

583
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: shot him in the back of the head. Did the

584
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: round pass thro any of the so called wrapping or packaging,

585
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: Because if that's the case, then you would have a

586
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: grown man that was wrapped up in a comforter trash

587
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: backs with tape all around it, and he is then

588
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: shot through the bag or was he shot first and

589
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: then wrapped in the bags and was anything cleaned up afterwards?

590
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't matter. Look, even if you're shot in

591
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: the head with a we'll go back to the pellet rifle.

592
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: If you're shot in the head with a pellet rifle,

593
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: you're going to bleed. It's probably not going to break

594
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: the skull, but it's going to break the scalp. And

595
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: we go back to the thing I always talk about

596
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: how vascular the head is. You're going to bleed some

597
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: So where did this actually happen in the home? Was

598
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: he contained in the bathtub and had it been rented down?

599
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: Where was there evidence of bloody claws around? And who

600
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: facilitated this? Because again, if you're a burglar, which you

601
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: know by this time, the police are thinking that this

602
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: is a load of bull crap. Because with burglaries, unless

603
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: you're going in to look for something specific and you

604
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: know where it's located, they're going to participate in something

605
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: called rifling. That means that they'll rifle through the desk drawers,

606
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: that'll throw them all aside, kitchen cabinets, everything, because nothing

607
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: in that house has any value to them other than

608
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: those things that they're looking for, money, jewelry, drugs, anything

609
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: like that. Other than that, they don't care about your

610
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: the pennant that your mama passed down to you. They

611
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: don't care about that unless it's encrusted with diamonds.

612
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 3: And so I'm not kidding. I don't please, I'm not

613
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 3: trying to offend anyone. But I missed it, okay when

614
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 3: in doing this story, Yeah, I missed the entire idea

615
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: that in order to believe her story, you have to

616
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 3: believe that two burglars came in there, shot a guy

617
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: in the head and then wrapped him up in a quill,

618
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 3: wrapped him up in a garbage bag, you've tape took

619
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 3: him to the very back of the house because they

620
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: were not in any kind of hurry at all to

621
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 3: steal everything and get out of there. I mean, that's

622
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: what you actually have to believe to believe her story.

623
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

624
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 3: Well, if you're gonna kill somebody in a robbery, you're

625
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: gonna kill them. They're gonna die where they sit, and

626
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 3: you're gonna grab stuff and run and run.

627
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: You know, why, why are you going to go to

628
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: all this trouble? That's why this makes this so absurd.

629
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: The police would have to so buy in to this narrative,

630
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: hook line and sinker that they're going to throw all

631
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: common sense and reasoning out out the door. When it

632
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: comes to what Miss Frasier is laying down. And of

633
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: course in this case, they determined that this is not

634
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: only was she fraudulent in trying to steal this old

635
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: man's money, you know from you know, from a life

636
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: that was spent that got him to retirement. Might I

637
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: might I add, but she, she the whole the whole

638
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: scenario was fraudulent everything before them. And this is truly,

639
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: in the pure sense, what we refer to as a

640
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: staged as a stage to death. This is something other

641
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: than the way it appears. And isn't it interesting You

642
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: can have a staged homicide that's actually the result of

643
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: the homicide. Most of the time when we're talking about staging,

644
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 1: we'll talk about suicide homicides that are made to look

645
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: like suicides. That's the most common thing. But here you

646
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: have a staged homicide that was actually a homicide, and

647
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 1: she tried to make it look like someone else committed

648
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: the homicide. And she went to such a great length

649
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: that she decided to shoot herself with the same weapon,

650
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: by the way, that was owned by this man. And

651
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: he had many weapons in this house. Had he had weapons,

652
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: he had cash, he had other things in that whole,

653
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: none of those items that were taken away, but one

654
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: of the things that was really glaring in this case,

655
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 1: and I think probably at the end of the day,

656
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: tells the tale. One thing that they did find in

657
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 1: that home that was destroyed and it was lying about

658
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: on the ground or images of miss Frazier mister white

659
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Speaker 1: Belt together. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks