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Speaker 1: Quick note before today's episodes to let you know about

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Speaker 1: my new book, Do Aliens Speak Physics, which is available

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Speaker 1: for pre order now and can be at your house

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Speaker 1: on November fourth. It's all about my favorite scenario, aliens

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Speaker 1: arriving on Earth and what it would be like to

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Speaker 1: try to talk to them about physics. Is that really possible?

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Speaker 1: We don't know, but the book is a fun exploration

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Speaker 1: of the potential challenges. If you've enjoyed my science outreach,

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Speaker 1: this is a nice way to support me. Check it

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Speaker 1: out at www dot alienspeakphysics dot com. Okay, on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode. I like to think about alien life, But

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Speaker 1: where are they all? If aliens are so rife.

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Speaker 2: If you don't metabolize and reproduce, then science says you're dead.

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Speaker 2: Does a recently discovered critter turn this definition on its head?

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Speaker 1: A curious listener wants to know what would the universe

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Speaker 1: be like if light were very slow?

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Speaker 2: Whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and Kelly's

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Speaker 2: answers will make it right.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 2: Hello. I'm Kelly Wader Smith. I study parasites and space,

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Speaker 2: and I'm excited that we're talking about aliens today. And

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Speaker 2: the reason I'm excited about that is because I'm really

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Speaker 2: excited about this book that's coming out called Do Aliens

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Speaker 2: Speak Physics?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, for a moment, I thought you were

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Speaker 1: going to tell me about another book about aliens, so

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Speaker 1: it's going to scoop mine. Oh no, my nightmare. Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I do love

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Speaker 1: thinking about aliens because I worry that the way we

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Speaker 1: do science is somehow infected with our humanity and there's

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Speaker 1: somebody out there getting deeper at the truth of the.

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Speaker 2: Matter infected by our humanity. That is a like surprisingly

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Speaker 2: negative view from you.

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Speaker 1: I think I was trying to speak biology, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you know, it's trying to use some sort of

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Speaker 1: parasitical language there.

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Speaker 2: I think you're implying that we're all like pessimists and negative.

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Speaker 2: But you know I am. So that's that's fine with me.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for bringing up my book, which is

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Speaker 1: coming out in November. It's called Do Aliens Speak Physics?

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Speaker 1: And you can get it all fine booksellers and probably

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Speaker 1: several others. And you're right that it's a little bit

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Speaker 1: pessimistic because the book is in response to my concern

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Speaker 1: that we were sort of putting ourselves at the center

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Speaker 1: of the universal intellectual stage by saying, like, everything we've

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Speaker 1: discovered is true, it's real, you know, it's universal that

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Speaker 1: other scientists around the galaxy will find the same thing.

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Speaker 1: To me, that smacks a little bit of like the

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Speaker 1: Earth is the center of the solar system or the universe,

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Speaker 1: you know, or we are important somehow on a cosmic stage.

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Speaker 1: And so I just wanted to ask, like, well, is

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Speaker 1: that really true? Are there ways that our humanity has

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Speaker 1: affected in our science? And so that's what the book

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Speaker 1: is about, is what aliens do physics differently? And how

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Speaker 1: could we know?

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Speaker 2: And at a future date we will have a whole

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Speaker 2: episode talking about that question and what you learned while

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Speaker 2: you were researching that problem. But today I wanted to

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Speaker 2: ask you what is your favorite part of writing a book?

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Speaker 1: Very part of writing a book. Oh, it's definitely not

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Speaker 1: coming up with the title. I don't know why, but

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Speaker 1: that's so frustrating. It's so hard to capture everything about

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Speaker 1: the book in a few words. You know, you have

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Speaker 1: to like meet the reader where they are, get them interested,

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Speaker 1: tell them a little bit about the book. Also, it

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Speaker 1: should be like clever in some way. So, boy, that

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Speaker 1: is really tough. And you and I have had lots

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Speaker 1: of conversations and titles. It's tricky. Yeah, it's tricky. I

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Speaker 1: think my favorite two parts of writing a book are

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Speaker 1: having the initial idea, Like it's always fun to come

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Speaker 1: up with a new idea for a project, you know,

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Speaker 1: as an academic, Like new projects are shiny and fun,

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Speaker 1: and current projects are like, ugh, man, I just to

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Speaker 1: get that thing.

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Speaker 2: Finished, got to get it up the door.

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Speaker 1: But also the research, like I love digging in deep

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Speaker 1: and reading a bunch of papers, and I wonder sometimes

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Speaker 1: like why didn't I just do this before? But for

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Speaker 1: some reason, like having a reason to dig in and

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Speaker 1: to read up about it and to learn about it.

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Speaker 1: If that excuses like I'm writing a book about this,

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Speaker 1: or I'm doing research for a listener or something. It's

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Speaker 1: easier to do, it's more fun. It feels like you're

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Speaker 1: allowed to do it instead of you just goofing off

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Speaker 1: and reading philosophy papers.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely agree with you, and that is also why

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Speaker 2: I love our Listener Questions segment so much, is that

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Speaker 2: we whenever a question comes across my inbox where I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I want to know more about that than I'm like,

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Speaker 2: that immediately goes in the listener questions pile. And then

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Speaker 2: while I'm researching it, I don't feel like I'm slacking off.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing my quote unquote work and it's awesome.

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Speaker 1: There you go. And so, is that also your favorite

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Speaker 1: part of writing a book? The deep research dive?

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Speaker 2: The two things I hate the most. I always write

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Speaker 2: the title last because I hate it, I agree, And

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Speaker 2: then I hate the part where I'm supposed to promote

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Speaker 2: the book and ask people for favors, And that's my

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Speaker 2: least favorite part, but it's part of the job. But no,

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Speaker 2: my favorite is just getting to do the research and

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Speaker 2: learning about new stuff, which is why I so rarely

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Speaker 2: write books about things I already know about, because I'd

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Speaker 2: rather have an excuse to read about something new and

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Speaker 2: like going through space law textbooks. On the one hand,

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Speaker 2: there were days where I'm like, why do I enjoy.

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Speaker 1: This so much?

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Speaker 2: Do I enjoy this? I'm not sure, I'm on the fence.

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Speaker 2: Then at the end of the day I'd be like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I just learned about like the laws

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Speaker 2: governing and the cosmos and that's pretty cool, and also

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Speaker 2: how they are inadequate, and so yeah, it's a fun

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Speaker 2: research topic.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also really fun to discover the things

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Speaker 1: that are interesting to you. And you've done a day

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Speaker 1: of reading and then you come to dinner with a

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Speaker 1: family and you're like excited to talk about some nerdy

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Speaker 1: detail you read about that was really cool, or some

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Speaker 1: new critter or some crazy idea you thought about and

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Speaker 1: had never considered before. It shows you, like which parts

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Speaker 1: of the universe inspire you and connect with you. And

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Speaker 1: that's what I love about science, that there's just so

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Speaker 1: much like that we just find cool. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: an emotional response, right, And this is actually one of

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Speaker 1: the things I'm curious about aliens, Like do aliens have

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Speaker 1: the same emotional reaction to the mysteries of the universe?

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Speaker 1: Are they curious? Do they care? Right? Is that human

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Speaker 1: or is that universal? That's like a very basic question

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Speaker 1: we don't know the answer to, but for me, it's

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite things about being human.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well, and what I want to know is

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Speaker 2: do they care about us? Yeah, which leads us nicely

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Speaker 2: into our first question from a listener, So let's go

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Speaker 2: ahead and hear that question.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'd love to hear your thoughts about the Fermi paradox.

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Speaker 3: Is it really a paradox? While I think the theory

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Speaker 3: is about the great filter, like if there's some big

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Speaker 3: thing that always prevents beings from reaching interstellar travel. I

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Speaker 3: think that's a really interesting thought experiment. But in general,

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Speaker 3: I've never really seen the Fermi paradox as a true paradox,

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Speaker 3: just do to how big the universe is and how

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Speaker 3: spread out everything is, like the odds of two kinds

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Speaker 3: of intelligent life. Somehow intercepting just feels too unlikely not

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Speaker 3: to mention the significant time delay. Like if alien friends

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Speaker 3: from thirty thousand light years away, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: relatively our neighbors on the scale of the universe, if

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Speaker 3: they sent out a signal right now, or even one

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Speaker 3: hundred years ago or a thousand years ago, we're not

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Speaker 3: getting that signal for tens of thousands of years. Still,

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Speaker 3: Am I right to think that this isn't really a paradox?

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Speaker 3: Or am I misunderstanding something or not thinking about it correctly.

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Speaker 3: I'd be happy to be proved wrong here, So I'm

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Speaker 3: looking forward to your answer, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Yay, all right, Daniel, So tell us about the Fermi paradox,

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Speaker 2: which in an earlier version of the book that I

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Speaker 2: read explains the Fermi paradox. So if anyone wants to

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Speaker 2: dive deeper, they should check out your book. I assume

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Speaker 2: it's still in there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Fermi paradox quickly is essentially asking, hey,

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Speaker 1: the galaxy is filled with stars and planets. There are

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Speaker 1: hundreds of billions of stars, and we now know that

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Speaker 1: most of them have planets and many planets, and so

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Speaker 1: there are tens of billions at least of rocky planets

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Speaker 1: around stars, which are a lot of places for aliens

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Speaker 1: to form and to learn and to develop technology and

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Speaker 1: to send us messages or to come visit us. And

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Speaker 1: space is big, but the Milky Way is not that

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Speaker 1: big compared to its age. I mean, the Milky Way

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Speaker 1: is like one hundred thousand light years across, so it

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Speaker 1: would take a long time to traverse it. But you know,

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Speaker 1: a long time is a few million years, and the

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Speaker 1: Milky Way is billions and billions of years old. We

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Speaker 1: think more than ten billion years old, and we've been

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Speaker 1: here for several billion. Of course, humanity is younger than that.

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Speaker 1: But you can imagine scenarios where aliens have traversed the

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Speaker 1: galaxy and left relics or filled it with messages. It's

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Speaker 1: not that difficult to imagine. So the question is where

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Speaker 1: is everybody? Why haven't we been contacted by aliens or

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Speaker 1: visited by aliens? So this famously and probably apocryphally, is

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Speaker 1: something Fermi said at lunch at Los Almos about fifty

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Speaker 1: or sixty years ago, and people have been wondering about since.

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Speaker 2: But he did at some point make an equation, right,

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Speaker 2: So it maybe started as a lunch conversation, but where

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Speaker 2: did the equation come from?

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Speaker 1: So this is an equation by Drake. That's the Drake

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Speaker 1: equation that tries to calculate how many aliens should be

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Speaker 1: contacting us. And it's pretty simple as an equations go.

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Speaker 1: It's just a multiplication of a bunch of factors. But

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Speaker 1: there's actually a lot you can learn just from the

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Speaker 1: structure of the equation. So the equation is like the

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Speaker 1: number of stars times the fraction that have planets, times

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Speaker 1: the fraction that might have life, times the fraction that

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Speaker 1: might be civilized, times of fraction you know that develop

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Speaker 1: technology and I don't remember exactly the structure of the terms,

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Speaker 1: but the fact that they're multiplied together is important because

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Speaker 1: that emphasizes that to hear from aliens, all of those

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Speaker 1: factors have to be non zero. Like, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if the universe is filled with life, if none of

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Speaker 1: it is technological, right, if there's life everywhere but it's

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Speaker 1: all just like sheets of algae or heaps of microbes,

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Speaker 1: then we're not hearing from anybody, we're not getting visited.

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Speaker 1: Or if they become intelligent, but none of them ever

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Speaker 1: developed technology, for example, So all of those things have

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Speaker 1: to work. All of those factors have to be non

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Speaker 1: zero for us to hear. And we know that the

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Speaker 1: number of planets is large, number of stars is large.

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Speaker 1: We don't know, for example, what is the fraction of

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Speaker 1: those planets that have life on them. We know there's

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Speaker 1: one hours, but it could be the only one, and

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Speaker 1: the denominator is large, So it could be that the

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Speaker 1: fraction of planets with life on them is like one

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Speaker 1: over a gazillion, in which case we're the only life

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Speaker 1: in the Milky Way. Or it could be fifty percent,

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Speaker 1: you know, or ten percent, so that the Milky Way

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Speaker 1: is filled with life. We just don't know so many

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Speaker 1: of these fractions.

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Speaker 2: So Julie asks something about the Great Filter. What does

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Speaker 2: the Great filter mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Great filters suggests that there might be life everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and there might even be intelligent and civilized life everywhere,

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Speaker 1: but it might not just last very long. That civilizations

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Speaker 1: might essentially burn themselves out. And there's a few ways

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Speaker 1: that this could happen. You know, civilizations might become technological

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Speaker 1: and then develop the means to kill themselves and end

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Speaker 1: up basically nuking each other. And that might be like

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Speaker 1: a trend that happens, not in the sense that it's

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Speaker 1: inevitable or that it has to happen necessarily. You could

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Speaker 1: never prove that, but it might be something that's fairly common.

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Speaker 1: Or it could be that civilizations pollute their atmospheres right

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Speaker 1: or cause global warming, or in some other way end

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Speaker 1: up killing themselves off. So that's the idea of the

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Speaker 1: Great Filter to explain the lack of contact or observation

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Speaker 1: of aliens by saying that life is very short lived,

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Speaker 1: and remember time is very very deep, and so even

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Speaker 1: if there have been a thousand civilizations in the Milky Way,

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Speaker 1: if each of them only lasted a few thousand years,

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Speaker 1: like the length of human civilization so far. Then in

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Speaker 1: space of billions of years, it's very unlikely that we

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Speaker 1: would hear from them now, or that we would happen

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Speaker 1: to be in life at the right moment to receive

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Speaker 1: messages from them.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's kind of a bummer, which is right up

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Speaker 2: my alley. So what do you think the answer is?

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Speaker 1: So now we have to depart from well founded science,

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Speaker 1: right and just speculate because we just don't know and

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Speaker 1: everything we're doing. I've heard a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: semi scientific analyzes of these things, but in the end,

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Speaker 1: we're always extrapolating from one example, and you can learn

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Speaker 1: things from one example. You could say like life didn't

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Speaker 1: take very long to develop on Earth, so maybe it's

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Speaker 1: not unusual, whereas intelligence did take a long time to

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Speaker 1: develop on Earth, so maybe that is weird and rare.

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Speaker 1: Like you can do those analyzes, but in the end,

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Speaker 1: it's just one. You know. It's like if you roll

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Speaker 1: a die with a million sides on it and you

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Speaker 1: get a six, You're like, hmm, that's kind of a

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Speaker 1: weird number. But you'd like another roll, right, You'd like

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Speaker 1: more measurements before you decide if the die is fair

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Speaker 1: or not. So you know, everything we're we talk about

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Speaker 1: now is non scientific extrapolation and really just wish fulfillment.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean we can't do it, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so my sense is that we're not great at

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Speaker 1: imagining the scope of possibilities. Right. We tend to do

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Speaker 1: perturbation theory basically, take our example and tweak it a

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Speaker 1: little bit. And you know, that's what people did for

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Speaker 1: a star trek, like you know, Klingons are humans with

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Speaker 1: weird foreheads or Vulcans are humans with weird ears. Right,

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Speaker 1: we tend to start from our example and then go

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Speaker 1: off in some direction. But aliens are not limited by that.

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Speaker 1: They don't have to start from humanity and then tweak it.

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Speaker 1: They can start from a completely different place. And because

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Speaker 1: we have only one example, it's very likely that we're

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Speaker 1: not considering the full landscape. And so the short answer is,

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Speaker 1: I expect aliens are going to be way more alien

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Speaker 1: than we can even imagine, in ways that would prevent

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Speaker 1: them from wanting to contact us, or from having what

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Speaker 1: we would recognize as civilization or technology, or to send

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Speaker 1: us messages that we don't even interpret or notice or

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Speaker 1: understand to be alien. So my favorite explanation for the

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Speaker 1: firmi paradox is in that direction that aliens are too alien.

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Speaker 2: Interesting. So Eric Kershenbaum wrote Zoologists Guide to the Galaxy

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Speaker 2: and great book. Great book, And you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the arguments there is that you might expect to find

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Speaker 2: organisms to have happened upon some of the same solutions

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Speaker 2: that we see here are on earth, because probably the

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Speaker 2: principles of natural selection act the same no matter where

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Speaker 2: you are, and there are similar pressures and a lot

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Speaker 2: of environmental pressures in a lot of different places. And

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Speaker 2: so why give me some examples then of what you're thinking,

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Speaker 2: and like why you expect things will be so different.

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Speaker 1: So, first of all, I really like that book. I

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Speaker 1: recommend everyone he read it. I had a lot of

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Speaker 1: fun reading it, and I actually chatted with him on

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Speaker 1: the previous podcast about it, so folks can check that out.

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Speaker 1: But I think that that line of argument is a

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Speaker 1: little dangerous. You know, it's sort of like post factor rationalization.

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Speaker 1: It's like saying, like it's easy to convince yourself that

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Speaker 1: humans are a natural endpoint to evolution, like well boy,

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Speaker 1: bipedalism makes a lot of sense. Having two eyes makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense. It makes sense to have a

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Speaker 1: nose on your face, and you could get yourself towards

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Speaker 1: arguing like, yeah, aliens are going to look a lot

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Speaker 1: like humans because we make sense. But what we don't

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Speaker 1: know is how many other ways evolution could have gone

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Speaker 1: right and arrives at other solutions that those folks would

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Speaker 1: also say, gosh, it just makes sense to have a

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Speaker 1: hand sticking out of your forehead, you know, or to

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Speaker 1: have a transient aus or whatever. Fun you could rationalize

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Speaker 1: those things. It's sort of like counting coincidences, right, We're

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Speaker 1: not good at thinking about the breadth of possibilities. And specifically,

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Speaker 1: I think that our evolution a lot of the arguments

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Speaker 1: that he makes, you know, like critters will eat other critters,

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Speaker 1: precise predation is universal, depend on the environment that we've

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Speaker 1: evolved in, you know, and some of the sort of

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Speaker 1: fundamental economics of it, like imagine if instead of critters

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Speaker 1: walking across a surface of a planet or even swimming

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Speaker 1: in its ocean, and what if we were life forms

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Speaker 1: that existed in the atmosphere of a star, right, we

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Speaker 1: were like currents of plasma and the distinction between alien

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Speaker 1: bodies wasn't even that crisp, right. I think about where

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Speaker 1: you define the edge of your body. Is it at

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Speaker 1: your skin? No, because it's hair there. Okay, your hair's

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Speaker 1: But now you have like a weird fuzzy definition for

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Speaker 1: like where it's Kelly and where it's not Kelly. And

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Speaker 1: if you dig down and you're like really philosophical about it,

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Speaker 1: it's not well defined. Like there's a fuzzy edge between

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Speaker 1: Kelly and the universe. And we like to think of

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Speaker 1: ourselves as a thing, a one thing that's distinct from

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Speaker 1: the universe because it's important to us sort of like

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Speaker 1: culturally and mentally. But what if we weren't you know,

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Speaker 1: if we were like flowed between each other and we

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Speaker 1: like shared plasma or whatever, we would have a very

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Speaker 1: different sort of relationship with the idea of identity, and

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Speaker 1: that could change fundamentally what it's like to be a

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Speaker 1: critter in that kind of you know, evolutionary economics, that's

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Speaker 1: just one example, you know, or in that and if

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Speaker 1: we evolved in a very different kind of situation, like

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Speaker 1: a subsurface ocean. You know, we think that there might

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Speaker 1: be oceans even in our solar system, under thick layers

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Speaker 1: of ice, and so if you're some sort of like

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Speaker 1: weird critter that flips around a completely dark ocean, you

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Speaker 1: might evolve, and then you might have no interest in

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Speaker 1: the outer universe because you don't even know that it's there,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you don't develop thumbs or technology or do

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Speaker 1: anything interesting like that. And so there's lots of situations

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Speaker 1: where aliens are just weirder than I think zoologists mighte.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why you need to, you know, hone

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Speaker 2: in on my people, but all right, I see your point,

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Speaker 2: and I think that your imagination is why I enjoyed

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Speaker 2: your science fiction so much.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I think the lesson here is that there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of human patterns that we don't recognize

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Speaker 1: our human patterns, and the best thing about meeting aliens

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Speaker 1: will be discovering those things, will be understanding Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: we never even imagined that you didn't have to have X,

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Speaker 1: Y or Z for life, and would tell you what X,

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Speaker 1: Y and Z were if I knew now, But I

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Speaker 1: don't write, And so that's one of the reasons I

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Speaker 1: had so much fun writing that book. Is like thinking

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Speaker 1: about the edges of our knowledge and where we might

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Speaker 1: be making assumptions if we hadn't realized. And frankly, I

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Speaker 1: think biologists are way ahead of physicists in this regard.

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Speaker 1: You know, y'all have thought about like, hey, do we

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Speaker 1: need water for life? It might be possible to use ammonia.

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Speaker 1: Do we need carbon for our chemistry? No, you could

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Speaker 1: actually maybe use silicon. And that's been helpful because it's

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Speaker 1: changed the way we look for life and imagine where

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Speaker 1: it is. I think physicists are well behind because they

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Speaker 1: all just assume that aliens will do physics the way

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Speaker 1: that we do, and that's probably wrong.

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Speaker 2: On behalf of my community. I thank you for the compliments.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's see what Julie thinks of your answer,

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Speaker 2: And thank you to Julie for giving me the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to talk about how great Daniel's book is. Hi, thanks

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Speaker 2: for answering my question.

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Speaker 4: I really like what you said about how the Milky

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Speaker 4: Way isn't that big compared to its age, and there

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Speaker 4: would maybe be relics out there that in theory we'd

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Speaker 4: be able to detect. I was kind of just thinking

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Speaker 4: about how big the universe is without necessarily factoring in

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Speaker 4: how old it is too, so I think I'm overall

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Speaker 4: back on team Paradox. But the explanation for the paradox

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Speaker 4: could be many, many different things beyond just how far

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Speaker 4: apart everything is, like all of the many different factors

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Speaker 4: that you mentioned, and just how truly alien they could be.

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Speaker 4: I think it's so fun to think about this stuff.

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Speaker 4: So really enjoyed how you talked through it. Thanks again, Well,

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Speaker 4: love the show.

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Speaker 2: All right, So next up we have a question from

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Speaker 2: our Discord channel, and if you want to join us

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Speaker 2: on Discord, and I really hope that you will, you

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Speaker 2: just go to our website at Danielandkelly dot org and

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Speaker 2: you can click the link to find our Discord group.

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Speaker 2: And today's question is from Pip Darcat on what.

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Speaker 1: Do you do the day Kelly when somebody has a

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Speaker 1: Discord handle that's not safe for podcasting?

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Speaker 2: Ooh, I will ask our amazing audio engineer Matt Kesselman

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Speaker 2: to bleep it for me. No promises, I already have

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Speaker 2: a plan. Hey, they're extraordinaries. It turns out that listener

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Speaker 2: Pip Darcat from Discord wasn't able to get back to

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Speaker 2: us in time for putting the audio together for this episode.

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Speaker 2: So I'm gonna go ahead and read her question from

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Speaker 2: the discord. Hi, Daniel and Kelly, I want to know

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Speaker 2: more about suk an ARCHAOM. I was reading a feed

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Speaker 2: about how this organism is a missing link between life

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Speaker 2: and not life. Would you consider this for an episode, Kelly, Well,

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Speaker 2: Pip Darkat indeed, I would. Here's your answer. Hope you're

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Speaker 2: doing well?

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Speaker 1: All right, So tell me about this question. And how

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Speaker 1: do we pronounce the name of this critter?

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Speaker 2: Oh, come on, man, you know I don't know the

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Speaker 2: answer to that. You know that I am notoriously bad

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Speaker 2: at pronouncing all of these names. So I'm gonna say

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Speaker 2: it's su sukan archaeom.

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Speaker 1: Nice. That sounds plausible.

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Speaker 2: Because I said it fast. Yeah, that's why that was

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Speaker 2: the trick. And so let's see, I'll jump ahead to

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Speaker 2: why it's named that. So in Japanese mythology, there is

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Speaker 2: a deity who is small and the name is Sukana.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, the deity's full name is Sukana Bikona. My apologies

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Speaker 2: to all of Japanese culture. And so they took the

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Speaker 2: first part of that deities name. And because this critter

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Speaker 2: is exceedingly small, in fact, we haven't even seen it

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Speaker 2: with our eyes yet. We've only found its genome and

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Speaker 2: sequenced it so far. They put that name in front,

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Speaker 2: and then since it appears to be from the domain Arkaia,

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Speaker 2: they named it's kind of Arkao very cool, which rolls

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Speaker 2: off the tongue. Whether it's correct or not. I like it.

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Speaker 1: Ar KaiA is really fascinating. Tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about arkae. I think a lot of people don't even

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Speaker 1: know that it exists. What is Arkaia and why is

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Speaker 1: it so weird and different?

433
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? So's it's incredible. And you know, I actually wonder

434
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 2: if you know more about this from dinner table conversations

435
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: with Katrina, so feel free to jump in.

436
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: We do have the Tree of Life run in front

437
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: of our dining room table, so Arkia does come up sometimes.

438
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 2: Do you do you have like a painting of the

439
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 2: Tree of Life in your kitchen?

440
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: We have a big poster of it.

441
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's amazing. I need that. And you know

442
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: what I learned in this episode is that you won't

443
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 2: find viruses on that tree.

444
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 1: Yeah that's true, which.

445
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: Kind of makes sense but also kind of yeah, makes

446
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: me think of some evolutionary questions. But anyway, okay, way

447
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: back in our evolutionary history, so very close to the

448
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: base of that tree, you ended up getting three different domains.

449
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: So you ended up with three splits, and so you

450
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 2: get ar KaiA, bacteria and ukryota. Ukryota have membrane bound organelles,

451
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: so we are eukaryotes. We have these membrane bound organelles.

452
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 2: We call them organadoes in a past episode, and I

453
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: thought that was cute, and I'll never forget.

454
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 1: I think it's amazing that u caryotes basically have like

455
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: a little clump of ocean, right, Like, yeah, we think

456
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: life started in the ocean, and we came out of

457
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: the ocean, but we brought with us basically the ocean.

458
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: We're basically little walking bags of ocean. It's sort of incredible.

459
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: It is amazing. Yeah, And so these three different domains

460
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: differ in things like what makes up their cellular wall,

461
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 2: how they structure their genes. For example, bacteria and Arcaea

462
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 2: tend to have circular chromosomes, and eukaryotes tend to have

463
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 2: linear chromosomes.

464
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: So eukaryots are distinguished because they have a nucleus. How

465
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 1: do you tell the difference between prokaryots and arcaea.

466
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so prokaryote is a phrase that just refers to

467
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 2: organisms that don't have membrane bound organelles, as I understand it,

468
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: and I think that because we've created this distinction, people

469
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: often think that arka and bacteria are closely related because

470
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 2: they're both prokaryotes. But as I understand it, arka, bacteria,

471
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: and eukaryota are all pretty like similarly distant, Like arka

472
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 2: aren't that much closer to bacteria than they would be

473
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 2: to us?

474
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: All right, I feel like you trying to understand the

475
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: difference between leptons and hadrons and masons and stuff. So

476
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: we have eukaryotes, which are on the side, then we

477
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: have prokaryotes, and within prokaryotes we have bacteria, and we

478
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: have arkaa. Is that right?

479
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: I think? So I did not prepare that ahead of time.

480
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: I'm trying to pull this out of Kelly intro biobrain,

481
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 2: but I never had to teach intro bios so it

482
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: never solidified.

483
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: So then why are arkaa thing? How are they different

484
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: from bacteria?

485
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 2: So they're different in that they have like different kinds

486
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 2: of cell walls, they have a different way of initiating

487
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: protein synthesis. I think they differ in the way that

488
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: they translate and transcribe their chromosomes, so they differ in

489
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: the way that they sort of read and turn into proteins.

490
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: The information that's in there genetic sequences, and those are

491
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 2: the notes that I have written down.

492
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: And so tell us about viruses. Why are they not

493
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: in the tree? Are they not alive? How do you

494
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: define life all this stuff?

495
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: There's a number of different criteria depending on who you

496
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,719
Speaker 2: talk to, Some of them will have different definitions than others.

497
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 2: But two important features that tend to pop up in

498
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: a lot of the definitions is that in order to

499
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: be alive, you need to be able to do some

500
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: of your own metabolism, some of your own metabolic processes.

501
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: So you need to be able to like convert stuff

502
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: into energy that you can use, and you need to

503
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 2: be able to replicate yourself. And so viruses they don't

504
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: have any metabolic machinery. They just inject themselves into a

505
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: cell and then they hijack the cell's machinery to create

506
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 2: more virus particles that then burst out of the cell

507
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: and go off and start that process again.

508
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: And is there some like philosophical justification for this or

509
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: is this just an arbitrary dotted line the human draw

510
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: between a big continuum of biological activity.

511
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 2: I think it might be. What do I think?

512
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: Is this like planets and dwarf planets all over again?

513
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was wondering that while I was working

514
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: on this outline, and that's what kind of made me

515
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: go to the Tree of life. And I think part

516
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 2: of why we can't really fit them on the Tree

517
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: of life is that they just sort of don't fit

518
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: anywhere on there neatly. And I wonder if because we

519
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: couldn't neatly fit them on there anywhere, we're like, all right, well,

520
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 2: you don't do these other things that are important, and

521
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: if you were doing those things, you'd have more genetic

522
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 2: information and we could use that to help fit you

523
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 2: into the tree of life because we could see, like,

524
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: you know, what the blueprints were and how that fit

525
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 2: onto the tree. But you don't have that. And so

526
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: I wonder if part of it is just like, well,

527
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: we don't know where to put them on the tree

528
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 2: of life, so we're just gonna say they're not alive.

529
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: And I've met a bunch of the people who come problem.

530
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: It's solved. But and I'm sure a lot of people

531
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: who come up with these definitions are going to be like,

532
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 2: that is a stupid answer. These are it's very important

533
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: to be able to, like, you know, make your own

534
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: energy and reproduce, and they don't do it, so they

535
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: they are not as good as us in some way.

536
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: All right, Well, if you have strong opinions about the

537
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: definition of life and whether viruses are alive or not,

538
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: right to us with a strongly worded email. We would

539
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: love to hear from you.

540
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I would. I think it would be fun

541
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: to have a battle about the different definitions of life

542
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: and not a battle, a conversation, a genial conversation.

543
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: And I love when these mysteries have the context, you know.

544
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: I think it's really cool. Then when we look at planets,

545
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: we also see other stuff that's almost a planet. It

546
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: helps us understand like where it sits in the bigger question.

547
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: And I love you know that there are other great

548
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: apes that are still around, Like I wish there were

549
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: more species of humans that survive to today because it

550
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: would tell us so much more about our evolution and

551
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: our context. And so I think it's really cool that

552
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: we have not just life and inert stuff. We have

553
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: this like weird stuff on the boundary that helps us

554
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: understand like what life means. So that's very cool.

555
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: And so you might be wondering, why did we talk

556
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: about what arkaa are and then why are we talking

557
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: about if viruses are alive or not? And the answer

558
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: is that this there was a finding recently of a

559
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: new species of arkaa. Does Katrina pronounce it arkaa or

560
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: am i oka?

561
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: Yes?

562
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: Great, okay, because if Katrina does it, then I'm doing

563
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 2: it right. So anyway, so there was a new species

564
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: of Archaea that was discovered and it has a very

565
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 2: small genome and doesn't seem to do a lot of metabolizing.

566
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: And so there was this idea that went around the

567
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: popular press that maybe this is like a transition between

568
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: things that are alive and not alive, because there's this

569
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: critical feature of being alive that is missing from this species.

570
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 2: So more of the fuzzy context, more fuzzy context. So

571
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: let me tell you a little bit more about this discovery.

572
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: So they were looking in dino flagelets, which are these

573
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: single celled eukaryotes. You find a lot of them in

574
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: the ocean. They tend to have like these two flagellum

575
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: which are like long, stringy things that they sort of

576
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: move around to help them get from one place to another.

577
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: And one of the things that's interesting about them is

578
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: that they produce bioluminescence, which you can see in the

579
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: ocean and creedy. Oh my gosh. Once I jumped into

580
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: the ocean when the bioluminescing organisms were in there and

581
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: there was this like amazing blue light that just kind

582
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: of like, oh, it was one of the coolest experiences orthing.

583
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: This was in Maine and northern Maine. Yeah, I was

584
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: at a science conference. It's pretty sweet being a scientist sometimes.

585
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: So anyway, dinoflagelets they do that, but the scientists were

586
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: not interested in that. They were interested in the fact

587
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: that the dinoflagelet that they were looking at was thought

588
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: to have a symbiotic critter living inside of it, and

589
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: so they were trying to understand that symbiosis and how

590
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: this it was a cyanobacteria, might be benefiting the dinoflagelet

591
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: and will and so they essentially opened up the dinoflagellate,

592
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: sorry dude, and they sequenced the stuff that was inside

593
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: and when they sequenced the stuff that was inside, they

594
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: found an additional circular DNA sequence that they weren't expecting

595
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: to see, and they did a bunch of extra studies

596
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: to look at it and try to convince themselves that

597
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: they hadn't messed something up, because what was surprising about

598
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: it was that it was so stink and small. The

599
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: circular DNA was so small that it was about five

600
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: percent the length of a genome you'd find in something

601
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: like Ischeria coali or Ecoli, so like very common bacteria.

602
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: And again they thought it was a mistake, but they

603
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: kept sequencing it, and then they assembled it. And when

604
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: you assemble it, what you essentially do is you look

605
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: at the genetic sequences and say, okay, do these sequences

606
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: match up with anything we see anywhere else in the

607
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: tree of life where we know what it does. So

608
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: trying to get a handle on, like what might bese

609
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: sequences do based on what we know happens in other organisms.

610
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: It was about two hundred and thirty ish KILLO base pairs,

611
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: where kilo means like a thousand, right, Daniel, mm hmmm, yeah,

612
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: I always double check these things. So super tiny, and

613
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,959
Speaker 2: so once they convinced themselves that they weren't messing up something.

614
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: They put it on the tree of life and they

615
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: were like, Okay, this appears to be arkaa. It looks

616
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: like it's a whole different phylum of Arka that we

617
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: haven't seen before. And then they went through and they

618
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: looked at what was in the genome and they're like, okay,

619
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: based on what we know about other organisms, what do

620
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: these genome components do?

621
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: So let me back up and ask you a question.

622
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: Just make sure I understand, because my understanding is when

623
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: you sequence something, you don't just like pull the whole

624
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: dema out of the nucleus and read the whole thing.

625
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: You do this process. You basically like shred the cell,

626
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: chop up the DNA in a bunch of short bits.

627
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: You sequence all the short bits like shotgun sequencing, and

628
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: then you use computer programs to like sew it back together.

629
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: And this is like Craig Benter's big innovation decades ago

630
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: that made the human geno much faster. And so then

631
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: you have this mystery sometimes of like, well where do

632
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: these pieces all go together? And I think what you're

633
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: saying is that when they were putting the puzzle together,

634
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: they realized, oh, we're solving two different puzzles here. This

635
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: is not one big puzzle. It's like if you started

636
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: working on a jigsaw puzzle and you noticed, like, oh,

637
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: there's lots of weird blue pieces that don't fit into

638
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: the puzzle, but they do fit with themselves over here

639
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: in the corner. Is that what happened?

640
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an incredible explanation actually, And so they didn't

641
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: just find two critters. They actually found more than two

642
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: critters in there. And so they put multiple puzzles together,

643
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: and a lot of the other puzzles they were like, Okay,

644
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: we've seen these puzzles before. But then then when they

645
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: found Sukuna arcam, they were like, what the heck is this?

646
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: They didn't trust that it was anything I see. But

647
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: once they convinced themselves that it was real and they

648
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: hadn't like made some mistake through the part of the process,

649
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: they discovered that it appears to be a whole new

650
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: phylum of Archaea. And then they went through and there

651
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: are a bunch of public databases where people are like

652
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: they collect genetic information and then they put it online.

653
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: And when they started searching through that, they found a

654
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: lot of other sequences that were looked kind of like this,

655
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: and so they think that this is the first example

656
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: in the filum that's been described, but that there's probably

657
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: a bunch of other stuff out there that we've sort

658
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: of seen but not recognized yet.

659
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: All right, And so what makes this one different from

660
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: other archaea? What makes it have its own thylum and

661
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: makes it, you know, whip through the popular press and

662
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: get an article in science.

663
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: So what was particularly exciting was that when they tried

664
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: to figure out what the few genes that were there did,

665
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: most of them were associated with replicating the organism so

666
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: it could do its own reproduction. But there were very few,

667
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: if any genes associated with matisabolism, and so it looks

668
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: like it's somewhere between alive and not alive. So I mentioned,

669
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: you know, the definition of being alive, you've got to

670
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: be able to do your own metabolism and your own reproduction.

671
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: This doesn't seem to be doing its own metabolism, so

672
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: it's probably a parasite of some sort, but it can

673
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: do its own reproduction.

674
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: So it can't do its own metabolism because even a

675
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: parasite like you know, something inside of you that's drinking

676
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: your blood, it's still metabolizing the blood and like feeding

677
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: its own internal chemistry. So what does it mean to

678
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: not be able to do your own metabolism? Does it

679
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 1: mean that like you're just stealing directly the chemical products

680
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: that store the energy.

681
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: I think, so I don't actually understand how you could

682
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: not metabolic I mean, I guess in the same way

683
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: viruses don't metabolize things. They just hijack machinery. I suspect

684
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: that's what's happening here.

685
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: I see, Yeah, fascinating.

686
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so most of the paper is like scientific details,

687
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: but at the very end the authors say something to

688
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: the effect of, like, maybe this is like an intermediate step,

689
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: and like this could tell us something about how organisms

690
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: go down the path to becoming a virus. Maybe you

691
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: lose a bunch of stuff as you go and you

692
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: end up with these very like shortened genomes. And not

693
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 2: everybody was convinced.

694
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: It's like a company that's deciding, hey, we don't need

695
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: to have our own HR department, let's just outsource it

696
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: to some startup or AI or.

697
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: Something, and then they become parasites.

698
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: Wow, that was a quick step to criticizing corporate culture.

699
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 1: Wasn't it.

700
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, But that's.

701
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: Fascinating to suggest that viruses used to be more fully

702
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: alive and have sort of lost this capacity or optimized

703
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: themselves so they realized they didn't need it. That's fascinating.

704
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting idea. I don't know if it's

705
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: an idea that's been presented elsewhere, and this was just

706
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: an example that really illustrated that that idea might have

707
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: some legs. But you know, not everyone was convinced. So

708
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: I read this paper in Science that was summarizing. So

709
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: I should also mention that the paper we're talking about,

710
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: the results are on bio archives, so they haven't gone

711
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: through peer review yet, but they're publicly available. But people

712
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: got immediately excited when it went on bioarchive, and Science

713
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: covered it, and Science did some interviews with other people

714
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: and they found a San Diego State University biologist whose

715
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: name is Elizabeth Waters. She wasn't part of this study,

716
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: but she does look at small archaeol parasites, and she

717
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: said that maybe this is a virus in the making.

718
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: She said, this is a bit of a jump. If true, amazing,

719
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 2: So she's like a little skeptical if it turns out

720
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 2: that would be super cool. But there are other organisms

721
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 2: with very small genomes. I think this one is particularly small,

722
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily the case that a small genome

723
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 2: organism is, you know, the missing link between becoming a virus.

724
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: And this is an example of folks of good journalism

725
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: here because they went out and talked to somebody who

726
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: wasn't invested in hyping this result and who knows the details,

727
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: and asked her like, are you impressed by this? And

728
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: she was like, hm, you know, she's holding her fire

729
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. And that tells you, like, we're not

730
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: all convinced that this is a big change that you know,

731
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: everybody's now going to update the textbooks or something, but

732
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: it is exciting and promising.

733
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And to me this highlights you know, so

734
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: maybe this is a little bit of a self defensive

735
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: statement I'm about to make here. So you know, you've

736
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: said that when physics is doing well, it's doing more

737
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 2: than just taxonomy. This is essentially just taxonomy. They found

738
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: something new. They were like, well, let's look at this

739
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: new thing, and maybe this is leading to a brand

740
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: new understanding of life or not life, depending on what

741
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 2: you co virus is, you know, and just how things

742
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 2: work and understanding our world a little bit better. And

743
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,959
Speaker 2: so I would argue just taxonomy is really important. Thank

744
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: you for this fascinating just taxonomy, and thank you to

745
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: Pip Darcat for this fantastic discord. Question.

746
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: Well, if I could comment, I think that this is

747
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: a fantastic bit of science. But I think it's especially

748
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: interesting because it's not just taxonomy, right. You're not just

749
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: putting it there and saying, well, look, it's just there.

750
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: You're thinking about the consequences, You're drawing analogies, you're asking

751
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: philosophical questions about what it all means. So taxonomy is

752
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: very valuable, partially because it inspires this kind of deeper

753
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: thinking and making these connections. So I would say taxonomy

754
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: is step one in a really fascinating and valuable process.

755
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: Right, But you can't get to step two without step one.

756
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: But i'll give you Yeah, I agreed, Okay, I'll give

757
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 2: you that.

758
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: Okay, we're back and we're answering questions from listeners. If

759
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: you have a question about the universe you've never really

760
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: had satisfactorily answered, please write to us. We would love

761
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: to give it a shot. You can email us to

762
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: questions at Daniel and Kelly dot org. You can join

763
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: our discord and you can find the link to that

764
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: on our website Daniel and Kelly dot org. We really

765
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. So many people write

766
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: in and we respond and then they say, oh, my gosh,

767
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: I can't believe you actually wrote back. Well, we really do.

768
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: You will hear from us. Your message will not just

769
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: be ignored in the black hole of the internet.

770
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: That's right. We can't wait to hear from you, all.

771
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: Right, And so now we have a really fascinating physics

772
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: question from John.

773
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 5: Hi, Daniel and Kelly. My name is John Chai. My

774
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 5: question is what would happen if the speed of light

775
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 5: suddenly changed, like let's say a giant cosmic switch were

776
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 5: flipped and suddenly the speed of light got cut in half.

777
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 5: Would it be completely catastrophic for all of existence or

778
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 5: would it go largely unnoticed because even half of the

779
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 5: speed of light is still really really fast. Thanks a lot,

780
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 5: and thanks for the great show.

781
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: Ooh, this is fantastic, And I think this is another

782
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: one of those questions where so you're always encouraging us

783
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: to take what we know and think, you know, if

784
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: we tinkered with it a little bit, how would that,

785
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 2: you know, break the universe? And essentially, like understanding how

786
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: tinkering with things would change things helps us understand if

787
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: we really understand what's happening. Yeah, and I use the

788
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 2: word understand a lot because I'm the most articulate person

789
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: on the planet. But you understand where I'm going.

790
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, and this actually connects to our earlier conversation

791
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: about the Fermi paradox. You know, another way to imagine

792
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: what aliens might be like that would make them very

793
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: alien is if they lived in a relativistic environment. You know,

794
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: what if they evolved in a situation where they're very

795
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: often going at eight tenths of the speed of light

796
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: relative to each other or relative to their houses or something,

797
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: and so they observe relativity in action as children, and

798
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: they develop an intuition for it, and to them it

799
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: makes perfect sense that moving clocks run slow, and moving

800
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: yardsticks look short and all this kind of stuff. You know,

801
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: if to them, the universe would be very different and

802
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: their path of their science would be very different than ours.

803
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: But here John is asking a different question. Basically, he's

804
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: imagining that he's at the control panel of the universe,

805
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: and he's got in front of him all these fundamental constants,

806
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: because there are these weird numbers in the universe that

807
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: seem to control how physics works. You know, why is

808
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: the weak force week? Why is the strong force strong?

809
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: Why is gravity so weak? Why is the universe this

810
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: big and not that big? Why are you galaxies this

811
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: size and not bigger? How come stars get this size?

812
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: It's like they are all these numbers in physics, and

813
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: some of them seem arbitrary. And so he's wondering if

814
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: he was at the control panel and he cut the

815
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: speed of light from three times ten to eight meters

816
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: per second down to half of that, what would change?

817
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: How would the universe look different? Would we notice? And

818
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: I think part of the motivation for this question is

819
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: that the speed of light is so fast that it's

820
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: essentially infinite. You don't take into account when you're walking

821
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 1: down the hallway the fact that the light that's hitting

822
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: your eyeballs is a little bit out of date, and

823
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: the person walking in the other direction is not actually

824
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: where they appear to be there slightly ahead of it

825
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: because the light has taken some time to reach your eye.

826
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: We treat it as instantaneous. So I think he's wondering

827
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: what life would be like, what the universe would be

828
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: like if it wasn't so instantaneous. If we sense that delay,

829
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 1: if the speed of light was slower and like, maybe

830
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 1: closer to the speed of sound.

831
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: Can I guess so? I feel like, because it's going

832
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: so fast day to day, we wouldn't notice anything, but

833
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: when we were looking out at like stars, we'd have

834
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: to take into account the fact that what we're seeing

835
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: was even farther back in the past. But how am

836
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:21,959
Speaker 2: I wrong?

837
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 1: No? I think you're mostly right. But before we dig

838
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: into all those consequences, I have to nerd out for

839
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: a little bit about what it means to change the

840
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 1: speed of light. I mean, I think if you're standing

841
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: at the control panel of the universe, the speed of

842
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: light is not one of those numbers, one of the

843
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: knobs for determining the nature of physics. I think those

844
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: knobs need to be dimensionless numbers, not things with like

845
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: meters per second in them, and not just because meters

846
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: and seconds are things humans invented, but because the dimensions

847
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 1: make it connected to so many other constants, like for example,

848
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: you could change the speed of light without noticing anything

849
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: if you also, at the same time accommodated other things,

850
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: like you changed the length of a meter and you

851
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 1: change the speed of light, we wouldn't even notice and

852
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: be like if you scale up the whole universe and

853
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: you scale up all the rulers, there's no change. You

854
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: can't tell if somebody does that. And so, for example,

855
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: if you change the speed of light, do those other

856
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: constants also change? Like the speed of light can be

857
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: expressed in terms of quantities from electromagnetism, which include things

858
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: like the vacuum permittivity of space. So if you change

859
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: the speed of light, you also change those which change

860
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, how electricity works, or you somehow breaking the

861
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: universe and changing the laws of physics themselves. If you

862
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: change dimensionless constants, you can keep all the laws of

863
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: physics the same, and every time you change those you

864
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: really do get an effect. If you change dimension full constants,

865
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: then it's more complicated and ambiguous exactly how it propagates through.

866
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: But you know, we can make some simplifying assumptions and

867
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: play with it anyway.

868
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 2: And see the speed of light is a dimension full constant.

869
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: Right yeah, because it's meters per second, right, has two

870
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: dimensions to it, And you're right, of light is super

871
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: duper fast, like the fastest any human has ever traveled

872
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: relative to like a nearby object, you know, on Earth

873
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: is something like point zero zero three seven the speed

874
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: of light wo and you know that's like astronauts in

875
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: the space Shuttle orbiting the Earth. Right, And so we're

876
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: talking about tiny, tiny fractions, which is why we don't

877
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: observe relativistic effects. But you're right. One of the ways

878
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: that we do notice the speed of light is in

879
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: terms of what fraction of the universe we can see.

880
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: We look out into space and we see back to

881
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: the beginning of time, and we can do that because

882
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: light takes time to get to us, because the speed

883
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: of light is not infinite, and so the furthest thing

884
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: we can see is something where the photons were emitted

885
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the universe, essentially like three

886
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty thousand years after the Big Bang, and

887
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: have been flying to us ever since. And the speed

888
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: of light limits how far we can see. So if

889
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: the speed of light was half what it was, we

890
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: would be able to see less of the universe because

891
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: these photons we're seeing now wouldn't have had time to

892
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: get here if the speed of light was half of it.

893
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: So the universe would still be the size that it is,

894
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: but we wouldn't see as much of it.

895
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: And how would that impact our understanding of the universe?

896
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: Do you think?

897
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: Ooh, yeah, that's a really fascinating question. You know, I

898
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: think we would still see a lot of the structures. Obviously,

899
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: we could still see the whole Solar System and the galaxy,

900
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: and the structures of the galaxy like the galactic clusters

901
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: and the nearby galactic clusters. Those are not so far away,

902
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: and we would still see the early universe. It's just

903
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: that photons from the early universe were be coming from

904
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: a closer bit of the early universe than in a

905
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: scenario where the speed of light was faster. So, to

906
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: directly answer your question, I don't think that would make

907
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: a big difference. Right. We would still see the whole

908
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: history of the universe. It's just in a smaller chunk

909
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: of it. But the chunk we're seeing right now is

910
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: really really big. It's big enough that already we can

911
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: see that when you zoom out, mostly the universe is uniform,

912
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: right that there's not a lot of structure at the

913
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: highest level, I mean the solar systems, galaxies and galactic clusters.

914
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: But once you zooma up past that, it's basically just foam.

915
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: You know, there's no real structure anywhere. And so we

916
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: can see enough to get that, which I think is

917
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: the biggest structure in the universe. And so it's big

918
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: enough in the universe is old enough for us to

919
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 1: glimpse that. But there is a connection there.

920
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: You're just a little bubble in the foam of the

921
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: universe that nobody would notice it start.

922
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: But you know, the structure of the universe also would

923
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: be different if the speed of light was smaller, because

924
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: the speed of light is not just the speed of light,

925
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 1: it's the speed of information, and it limits the biggest

926
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: structure you can make at any point in the universe,

927
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: Like in order for a structure to form, you have

928
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: to have it interact and communicate. Like even gravity is

929
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: limited by the speed of light, and so there isn't time,

930
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: for example, to form a structure that's bigger than the

931
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: speed of light times the age of the universe. It

932
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: just hasn't had time to like gravitationally assemble. And so

933
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: if the speed of light is slow, that means the

934
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: biggest structure you can have would be smaller in the universe.

935
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: Oh so what is the biggest structure that we have

936
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,959
Speaker 2: what would be in small end by this slower speed

937
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: of light.

938
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: Well, this is actually kind of a current mystery because

939
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: we see structures like the slowan great wall. This is

940
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: like sheets of galactic clusters, which at the highest level

941
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: like the edges of those bubbles in the foam, though

942
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: some of those are bigger than the speed of light

943
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: times the age of the universe. So it's a bit

944
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: of a puzzle like how did that form? Are we

945
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: misinterpreting it something that we didn't understand? You know, one

946
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 1: of my favorite things about science is that we have

947
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: all these threads that should all tell one story because

948
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: we think there's a thing that's happening in the universe,

949
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: and when they don't, that's a hint that there's something

950
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: we don't understand. And there's so many different ways to

951
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: attack the same question. So that's a current mystery. But yes,

952
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: some of those biggest structures, you know, superclusters of galaxies

953
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: woven together into foams and voids would be smaller. So

954
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: basically like the foam would have smaller bubbles.

955
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so we've looked at the very big picture.

956
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 2: If we go back to Earth, what would be different?

957
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: So like when I turn on the light switch, I

958
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't it wouldn't be I'm guessing that wouldn't be

959
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 2: like a noticeable difference in how long it took for

960
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: the room to get right. What about other stuff?

961
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the speed of light is so fast that

962
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: even half the speed of light is crazy fast, and

963
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: there's no way that you would even notice. But we

964
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: might have been able to measure the speed of light

965
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: a little bit sooner in our history, right, people tried

966
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: to measure the speed of light for decades with all

967
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 1: sorts of hilarious contraptions with lanterns across mountains, and basically

968
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: there rose like, yeah, it's just too fast. We don't know.

969
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: It's faster than we can measure. So we would have

970
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: figured that out sooner, which might have given us a

971
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: handle on relativity earlier. And so I think in that

972
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: universe we might have figured out physics one hundred or

973
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,720
Speaker 1: two hundred years earlier, which is pretty cool.

974
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: Oh then we wouldn't have had Einstein because what would

975
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: he have done? Probably not thing.

976
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: Somebody else would have been Einstein.

977
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, all right, but what do you have

978
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: had the same hair? It's the important question.

979
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: Really, That's what it all comes down to. This whole

980
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: production is really just to get us to Einstein's hair.

981
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

982
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: But if you imagine like slowing down the speed of

983
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: light even more so that its effects are visible every day. Like,

984
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: imagine if cars moving along the highways were relativistic, you know,

985
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: if they were moving at like eight tenths of the

986
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: speed of light, you know, because the speed of light

987
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: was crazy slower, then we would have that kind of

988
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: alien intuition. We would notice relativistic effects every day, right,

989
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: Like we would see that cars moving along the highway

990
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: are shrunken, and that you know, the people on airplane

991
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: trips don't age as much, right, And it would really

992
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: change the experience of going Like on a long flight,

993
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: you take that fourteen hour flight to Dubai, it doesn't

994
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,399
Speaker 1: feel like fourteen hours, right, It only feels like ten

995
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: minutes or something. So that's really cool. You don't get

996
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: to watch seven movies but you also get your time back, right, Yeah,

997
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: so that would be really cool, but it would also

998
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: make things really hard, Like it's already challenging for me

999
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: to figure out my calendar with time zones, you know,

1000
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: like which time zone are they in? What does that

1001
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: mean for me? Like, I don't know why that's so complicated.

1002
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: Now imagine that on top of that, you need to

1003
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 1: take into account relativistic effects, so like where's Daniel Binn,

1004
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: Where is his clock? How much slower is it? It

1005
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: would make coordinating things much more complicated because we'd have

1006
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: to give up on the concept of simultaneity. One of

1007
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 1: the weirdest consequences of relativity is the fact that clocks

1008
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: are not synchronized, which means you don't all agree on

1009
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: the order of events. And mostly on the surface of

1010
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: the Earth, we can't notice that because everybody's moving very slowly.

1011
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: But if we were moving faster relative to the speed

1012
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 1: of light, that would be a real effect and people

1013
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: would disagree about important stuff, and yeah, that could have

1014
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: real consequences. It would make life a lot more complicated.

1015
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: And just to remind myself, you were talking about if

1016
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: it was more than just half the speed of light,

1017
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 2: it would have to be yeah, quite a bit more.

1018
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, just half The speed of light probably would

1019
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: have almost no measurable effect on life on Earth, except

1020
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: maybe it would take longer to like download a movie

1021
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: from some website in Siberia, because the speed of light

1022
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: also influences your download times, right, Like you're downloading data

1023
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: from across the Earth. That's a significant difference, and so

1024
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: the ping time between your computer and that computer is

1025
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: limited by the speed of light because that's the speed

1026
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: signals move across the Internet, and so it would take

1027
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 1: a little bit longer. You know. In that case, when

1028
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: you're downloading a big movie, the latency is not a

1029
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: big effect. But if you're trying to have like a

1030
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: conversation in real time with somebody on the other side

1031
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: of the Earth, then there could be more lags there.

1032
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that the speed of light is what

1033
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: it is then, because otherwise it would be hard to

1034
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: record this podcast with you.

1035
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. And then looking out into the cosmos,

1036
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: there would be other changes actually in what we see

1037
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: out there. Black Holes would be much more significant. The

1038
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: size of the radius of a black hole depends on

1039
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: the speed of light. You calculate the short siled radius,

1040
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: the point past which things can't escape the gravity of

1041
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: a black hole that has a factor in it from

1042
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: the speed of light. It goes like one over the

1043
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: speed of light is squared, So if you shrink at

1044
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 1: the speed of light, that means a larger event horizon

1045
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: for the same mass. Right, So black holes with mass

1046
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: in our universe would have a much larger radius in

1047
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: this universe where the speed of light is smaller. This

1048
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: means they could have like a bigger effect on their galaxies. Right.

1049
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: We have black holes at the center of all galaxies

1050
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: and they're really massive, but they're not that big, you know,

1051
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: they're tiny compared to the size of a galaxy. But

1052
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: crank down the speed of light by a big factor

1053
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: and they can grow. And so like the centers of

1054
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: galaxies could have like gargangcheu in black holes, not more

1055
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: massive than the current ones, but just bigger, and that

1056
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: could actually help them grow to more massive quantity. So

1057
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: it would really change black hole physics a lot if

1058
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: you change the speed of light.

1059
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: But we probably would not get sucked up by a

1060
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: black hole. I guess everything could be different if all

1061
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: the black holes were different sizes.

1062
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 1: In the end, you got to make it about yourself. Kelly, Right,

1063
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 1: what is the impact on Kelly's life?

1064
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 2: Have you met people? I'm just asking the question that

1065
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 2: the people are asking themselves.

1066
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: You're right, y'all are going to be fine, don't worry.

1067
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: Thank you, Daniel.

1068
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 1: All right, well, thank you very much for that question. John.

1069
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: Let us know if we scratched your Doppler itch.

1070
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 5: Hi, Daniel and Kelly, thanks a lot for pondering my question.

1071
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 5: And I really enjoyed listening to your speculation on how

1072
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 5: our world might be different if the speed of light

1073
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 5: got cut in half. And I also enjoyed listening to

1074
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 5: you think about what might happen if we took it

1075
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 5: to the extreme and it slowed down to like a

1076
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 5: noticeably slow amount. To be honest, I was hoping for

1077
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 5: some explanation of how change in the speed of light

1078
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Speaker 5: might be catastrophic to our existence, but I guess in

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Speaker 5: science it really doesn't depend on what you're hoping for.

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Speaker 5: Thanks a lot, and thanks for the show.

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Speaker 1: All right, Thanks very much everybody who sent in their question. Please, pes,

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Speaker 1: please please don't be shy. We really do love hearing

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Speaker 1: from you write to us questions at Daniel and Kelly

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00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: dot org tweeted us, interact with us on Blue Sky,

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Speaker 1: or join us on the discord. Check out all those

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Speaker 1: directions at Daniel and Kelly dot org.

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Speaker 2: See you then. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced

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Speaker 2: by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: We really would. We want to know what questions you

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Speaker 1: have about this Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 2: We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

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Speaker 2: for future shows. If you contact us, we will get

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Speaker 2: back to you.

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Speaker 1: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

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Speaker 1: at Questions at Danielankelly.

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Speaker 2: Dot org, or you can find us on social media.

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Speaker 2: We have accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on

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Speaker 2: all of those platforms. You can find us at d

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Speaker 2: and kuniverse.

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Speaker 1: Don't be shy write to us