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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you missed in History class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hey everyone, Before we get started today,

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Speaker 1: we wanted to let you know that there are only

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Speaker 1: a few spots left on our upcoming trips to Paris. Yes,

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Speaker 1: which startles and delights me. I thought no one would

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Speaker 1: want to come with us, and it turns out everybody does. So, Yes,

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Speaker 1: we are going to Paris June second through night. If

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Speaker 1: you come to our website, which is missed in history

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Speaker 1: dot com, you can click the link that says Paris

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Speaker 1: trip exclamation point in either the top menu bar or

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Speaker 1: under the little menu icon. If you're on a mobile device,

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Speaker 1: that will take you to the site we can learn

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Speaker 1: all about the trip and sign up for it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so we hope to see you in Paris. We're going

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Speaker 1: to have a splendid time. We're both extremely excited. Hello

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy B. Wilson and

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry. The poet Sappho is the first known

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Speaker 1: woman writer in the European literary tradition, and she is

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Speaker 1: described as the greatest female poet of Ancient Greece or

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Speaker 1: the greatest Greek lyric poet period regardless of gender, or

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Speaker 1: even the greatest female poet of all time. There's a

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Speaker 1: addition to her work where C. R. Haynes, who edited

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Speaker 1: that edition, put it this way quote with the possible

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Speaker 1: exception of Shakespeare, Homer is still the supreme poet, and Sappho,

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Speaker 1: without any exception, the poetess par excellence. Except those last

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Speaker 1: two words were in Greek, so I got to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to translate them, which was a challenge. Sappho's

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Speaker 1: reputation as one of the world's finest poets has persisted

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Speaker 1: for more than hundred years, and that's fascinating because the

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Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of her work has not. And then also

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Speaker 1: fascinating is that the words sapphic and lesbian, which is

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Speaker 1: derived from the island of les Boss, where Sappho lived,

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Speaker 1: they've become synonymous with same sex relationships among women. But

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Speaker 1: we actually know very very little about Sappho's life or

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Speaker 1: her relationships, and two thousand years ago those terms had

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Speaker 1: really different meanings from what they do now. So we

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Speaker 1: are going to get into all of this today. Sappho

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Speaker 1: is also a frequent listener request and over the past

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Speaker 1: few years we've gotten requests from Helen Sillian pat Esther

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Speaker 1: and one person who didn't have a name on their emails,

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Speaker 1: and then as a heads up, we talk about people's

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Speaker 1: relationships often enough on the show, we don't usually need

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Speaker 1: to mention a specific sex act. That is not the

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Speaker 1: case today, so use discretion if it seems like that

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Speaker 1: sort of territory might be an issue for you or

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Speaker 1: people that you listen with. Now, I feel like we

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Speaker 1: need to do a show called sexy History, be a

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Speaker 1: whole other thing, completely different, and we wouldn't need as

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Speaker 1: Runnings new. So the most referenced source of information about

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Speaker 1: Sappho's life is a tenth century Byzantine compendium called the Puda.

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Speaker 1: In the Studa is sort of a lexicon or encyclopedia

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Speaker 1: of the ancient Mediterranean. It has two Sappho entries, and

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Speaker 1: we'll get into why that is a little bit later.

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Speaker 1: Sappho's name also comes up in lots of other entries

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Speaker 1: in the Suda, including ones for her relatives, places she lived,

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Speaker 1: people she knew, and definitions of various literary terms. She's

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Speaker 1: also mentioned in lots of other historical writing that has

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Speaker 1: survived until today, although usually those references are shorter and

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Speaker 1: less detailed than what's in the Pseuda. This all makes

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Speaker 1: it very tricky to piece together Sappho's biography. The Pseudo

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Speaker 1: was compiled more than a thousand years after Sappo actually lived,

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Speaker 1: and then on top of that, it's not exactly reliable

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Speaker 1: all the time. It's cobbled together from all kinds of

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Speaker 1: different sources, and some of its entries pick up information

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Speaker 1: that is clearly not factual. In terms of the entries

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Speaker 1: on Sappho, it's just not clear how much of the

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Speaker 1: information came from historical sources, how much from what people

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Speaker 1: just knew in quotation marks about Sappho in the tenth century,

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Speaker 1: and how much of it was gleaned from things that

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Speaker 1: are mentioned in her poetry. It's always tricky to try

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Speaker 1: to use poems as a source for the poet's biographical details,

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Speaker 1: but it's even more of a challenge here because by

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Speaker 1: the tenth century a lot of Sappho's work had already

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Speaker 1: been lost, so we don't know the full context of

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Speaker 1: those lines that we have. According to the Suda, Sappho

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Speaker 1: was born in the forty two Olympiad, which was between

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Speaker 1: six twelve and six O nine b C. But the

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Speaker 1: wording of it could also be translated as flourished and

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Speaker 1: not born, which would mean that those years were the

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Speaker 1: height of her career and not her birth. The pseudolists

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Speaker 1: eight different men as Sappho's potential father. Herodotus, on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, lived about two hundred years after Sappho did,

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Speaker 1: and he wrote that her father was named scam Andronymus,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the eight men that the sud

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Speaker 1: elicit as a possibility. Hundreds of years later, Sappho's mother

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Speaker 1: may have been named Claius, and we have to say

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Speaker 1: may have been, because a couple of Sappho's fragments mentioned

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Speaker 1: a daughter named Claius, and it was traditional for daughters

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Speaker 1: to be named after their grandmother. But even that is

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Speaker 1: pretty murky because the the word that's used for daughter

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Speaker 1: could also just mean child, and in some cases it

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Speaker 1: could actually be translated as slave. So this Claius, who

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Speaker 1: may or may not have been named after Sappho's mother,

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Speaker 1: may or may not have been her child. This is

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Speaker 1: like the most provisional discussion of history ever. I feel

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Speaker 1: like if you've heard the words possibly and may have been,

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Speaker 1: you've heard most of Sappho's biography. We do know she

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Speaker 1: lived on the island of Lesbos and the aegan C

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Speaker 1: and that's just across the water from what's now Turkey.

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Speaker 1: At the time that was Sartists, which was the capital

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Speaker 1: of Lydia. Sappho's place of birth on the island was

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Speaker 1: probably the town of Heiressis or the capital of Middlini.

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Speaker 1: She most likely lived most of her life in Middlini,

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Speaker 1: although it is possible that she and her family either

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Speaker 1: moved or fled to Sicily for a time, either because

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Speaker 1: of general political upheaval on Lesbos or because of their

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Speaker 1: own political affiliations. She may have had three brothers. The

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Speaker 1: Suda names them as Larkos, Caraxos, and Eurygios, and two

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Speaker 1: of those names appear in a poem that was unearthed

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Speaker 1: in which we talked about in one of our Unearthed

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Speaker 1: episodes that year, and that poem has been nicknamed the

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Speaker 1: Brother's Poem because it contains these two names. From here,

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Speaker 1: the pseudo wanders into some more questionable territory. It says

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Speaker 1: that Sappho's husband was Kirklius of Andros, but Kirklius is

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Speaker 1: very close to a slang term for the word Penis

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Speaker 1: and Andross was a real place, but was also the

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Speaker 1: word for man. So the suitas name for Sappho's husband

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Speaker 1: is sort of like saying he was Dick Johnson of

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Speaker 1: Man Island. So this is more likely to be a

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Speaker 1: crude joke than her husband's actual name. I want to

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Speaker 1: make a sitcom now about Dick Johnson on man Island. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then the suda names three of Sappho's friends, Athis, Tellusippa,

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Speaker 1: and Megara, using a word to describe them that could

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Speaker 1: mean companion, but it could also mean cortisan, and the

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Speaker 1: studha says her relationship with them led her to be

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Speaker 1: accused of a friendship or a love that was shameful.

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Speaker 1: From there, the student goes into some more mundane territory,

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Speaker 1: naming a few of Sappho's students, saying that she wrote

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Speaker 1: nine volumes of poetry and crediting her with inventing the plectrum,

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Speaker 1: which is like a pick for plucking the strings on

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Speaker 1: a liar. It also describes her poetry as including epigrams,

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Speaker 1: l j x iambics and monodies. Her surviving work also

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Speaker 1: includes a lot of epithalamia, and these are poems that

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Speaker 1: were celebrating a marriage which she was probably commissioned to right.

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Speaker 1: In addition to the Sudas mentioned of students, a number

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Speaker 1: of classical sources described Sappho as a teacher, but none

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Speaker 1: of these sources mentioned what or where she taught. In

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Speaker 1: spite of that lack of detail, a lot of articles

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Speaker 1: that exist today definitively say that Sappho ran a thesos,

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Speaker 1: which is sometimes described as a sort of finishing school

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Speaker 1: for women waiting to get married, and it's also sometimes

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Speaker 1: described as a religious community dedicated to Aphrodite, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: as a group of temple courtisans. But really there's no

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Speaker 1: substantiation to any of this or for the idea of

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Speaker 1: a Theosos as an actual established school of some sort.

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Speaker 1: None of sappho surviving writing mentions that the asos at all.

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Speaker 1: You will see a lot of just incredibly definitive saying

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Speaker 1: with a h confidence, statements that are like, Sappho ran

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Speaker 1: this the ass that taught these young women how to

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Speaker 1: be wives and mothers, and maybe it's not documentation of that.

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Speaker 1: And then there is the story of Sappho and Phayon,

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Speaker 1: and the basic gist of this story is that Sappho

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Speaker 1: fell in love with a ferryman named Phayon, and when

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Speaker 1: he rejected her, she threw herself off a cliff. That

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Speaker 1: story makes up the bulk of the Suda's second Sappho entry,

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Speaker 1: which says that this supposedly different Sappho was also from Middelini,

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Speaker 1: also played a harp and may have written lyric poetry

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Speaker 1: as well. This story about the ferryman is repeated over

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Speaker 1: and over and over. It's depicted in numerous works of

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Speaker 1: art and literature, including in Avids herodes or epistles of

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Speaker 1: the heroines. But Phayon was a mythical figure, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like this idea that the real Sapphos threw herself

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Speaker 1: over a cliff for him dates back to a comedy

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Speaker 1: by Menander written about two hundred years after Sappho died,

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Speaker 1: and in the thousands of years since then, the fact

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Speaker 1: that at least one of Sappho's fragments mentions Phayon has

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Speaker 1: been used to try to substantiate this fictional story as

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Speaker 1: though it were fact. So when it comes to Sappho's biography,

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Speaker 1: we have a whole lot of contradictions and questionable sources,

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Speaker 1: and in some cases or poetry has been used to

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Speaker 1: try to substantiate those claims. So we are going to

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Speaker 1: take a look at her poems and some more detail

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Speaker 1: after we take a quick sponsor break. Sappho was a

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Speaker 1: lyric poet, meaning that she composed poems that were meant

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Speaker 1: to be sung accompanied on a liar in In ancient Greece,

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Speaker 1: lyric poetry tended to be short and very personal, often

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Speaker 1: sung from one person to another or written in the

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Speaker 1: voice of one person addressing another. Many of Sappho's poems

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Speaker 1: that have survived until today either are or are believed

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Speaker 1: to be love poems. It's hard to tell sometimes because

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Speaker 1: what survives can be incredibly short. Homer, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: wrote epic poetry, and this was much longer, with a

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Speaker 1: narrative that told the story of the heroic deeds of

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Speaker 1: the characters in the poem. And we should also note

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Speaker 1: that it's very possible that the work attributed to Homer

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Speaker 1: was really written by several people and not just one. Regardless,

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Speaker 1: though in the ancient Western world he was called just

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Speaker 1: the poet and Sappho was the poetess. Lyric poetry really

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Speaker 1: flourished in ancient Greece between about six hundred and four

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Speaker 1: fifty b C. So that was when Sappa lived. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't newly invented during that time. This was more a

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Speaker 1: revival of an earlier poetic form. And then two people

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Speaker 1: were considered to be the most notable lyric poets of

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Speaker 1: this period. They were Sappho and I'll see Us, both

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Speaker 1: of whom were from Lesbos and may have known each

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Speaker 1: other and even written to each other. Sappho wrote her

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Speaker 1: poems in Aolic Greek, which is sometimes also called Lesbian Greek,

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Speaker 1: and in that dialect her name was more like Shapa

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Speaker 1: than the Sappho that we know today. In about the

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Speaker 1: third century b c. E Sappho's poet Tree was compiled

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Speaker 1: into an eight or nine volume collection in Alexandria, Egypt.

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Speaker 1: The volumes were arranged by the meter used for each poem,

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Speaker 1: which set it apart for most other compilations, which tended

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Speaker 1: to be organized instead by subject or seem. There were

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Speaker 1: as many as ten thousand lines of poetry in this compilation,

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Speaker 1: but it's possible that Sappho wrote much more than that,

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Speaker 1: especially since many of her works were commissioned for special

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Speaker 1: occasions like weddings, and they might not have been preserved

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Speaker 1: after they were performed. Today, Sappho was known most for

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Speaker 1: one particular poetic form, and that's the Sapphic, which is

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Speaker 1: also called Sapphic meter or Sapphic stanzas. We don't really

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Speaker 1: know whether Sappho developed this form herself or refined a

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Speaker 1: form that already existed, but she was so skilled at

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Speaker 1: writing in this form that it ultimately carried her name.

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Speaker 1: The Sapphic used four line stanzas, with three longer lines

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Speaker 1: followed by one shorter line, and then within those lines.

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Speaker 1: The meter came from Lesbian Greek's pattern of long and

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Speaker 1: short syllables. When people are translating Sappho's work today, sometimes

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Speaker 1: they approximate the meter using the characteristics of whatever language

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Speaker 1: they're working in. So, for example, in English, there's a

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Speaker 1: pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables, with the stressed syllables

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Speaker 1: standing in for the long syllables in Greek, and the

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Speaker 1: unstressed syllables taking the place of the short ones. These

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Speaker 1: tend to be very personal, passionate, and emotional poems, and

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00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 1: they're simultaneously very simple and elegant. During Sappho's lifetime, poetry

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Speaker 1: was also believed to be magical, so poetry was thought

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Speaker 1: to be able to influence or shape reality. So Sappho's

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00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,280
Speaker 1: poetry was considered to be beautiful and melodic and powerful.

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Speaker 1: But we have unfortunately very little of this poetry today,

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Speaker 1: and even less of it in the form of complete poems.

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Speaker 1: The vast majority of what we have is just short fragments,

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Speaker 1: and some of these fragments are from damaged pieces of

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Speaker 1: writing material or pieces of clay pots. Other are quotations

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Speaker 1: from other people's surviving work. For example, Cassius Longinus quoted

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Speaker 1: four stanzas by Sappho in on the Sublime, which was

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Speaker 1: published around one hundred CE. Today, out of those ten

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00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 1: thousand or so lines that we think that Sappho wrote,

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Speaker 1: we have roughly six hundred and fifty lines of poetry remaining.

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Speaker 1: That is spread out across about two hundred and fifty fragments,

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00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,200
Speaker 1: And of those six and fifty lines, fewer than a

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Speaker 1: third of them or even complete lines of poetry. A

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Speaker 1: lot of them are partial lines. Six of the fragments

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00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 1: are longer and more substantive, but still not entirely intact,

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Speaker 1: and one of those longer fragments is the brother's poem

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Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier, which is missing only its first

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Speaker 1: few stanzas. Only one of Sappho's poems is believed to

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Speaker 1: be complete today, and that is the Ode to Aphrodite.

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Speaker 1: Different collections of Sappho's poetry use different numbering systems to

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Speaker 1: keep up with all of these fragments, but most of

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Speaker 1: the time Owed to Aphrodite, sometimes translated as Him or

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Speaker 1: Prayer to Aphrodite is number one. Here's the beginning of

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Speaker 1: Ode to Aphrodite, translated by T. W. Higginson in event

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Speaker 1: one quote beautiful throned immortal Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus beguiler.

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Speaker 1: I implore THEE weigh me not down with weariness and anguish.

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Speaker 1: Oh Thou most holy, come to me now, if ever thou,

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Speaker 1: in kindness harkenist my words. And in the poem, Aphrodite

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Speaker 1: does come and says, who has harmed thee? Oh, my

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Speaker 1: poor Sappho. Though now he flies ere long, he shall

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Speaker 1: pursue THEE. Fearing thy gifts. He too, in turn, shall

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Speaker 1: bring them loveless. Today tomorrow he shall Woozee, though thou

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00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 1: should spurn him. Another of the longer fragments is the

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Speaker 1: one that was quoted in On the Sublime, which we

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, and it describes the speaker's response to sitting

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Speaker 1: across from a woman that the poem is addressing. This

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Speaker 1: is usually interpreted as Sappho herself describing her own response

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Speaker 1: of the woman that she's facing, but that's not really

267
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:07,000
Speaker 1: clear here. It is as translated by John Addington Simmons

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Speaker 1: in three Peer of the Gods. He seemeth to me

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Speaker 1: the blissful man who sits and gazes at the before

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Speaker 1: him close besides these sits and in silence, here's the

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00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 1: silverly speaking laughing Love's low laughter. Oh this this only

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00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,160
Speaker 1: stirs the troubled heart in my breast to tremble. For

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Speaker 1: should I but see thee a little moment? Straight? Is

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00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: my voice hushed? Yea, my tongue is broken, and through

275
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,520
Speaker 1: and through me neath the flesh impalpable fire runs tingling

276
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 1: nothing see mine eyes and our noise of roaring waves

277
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 1: in my ear sounds. Sweat runs down and rivers. A

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00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,120
Speaker 1: tremor seizes all my limbs, and paler than grass in autumn,

279
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 1: caught by pains of menacing death, I falter lost in

280
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 1: the love trance, But almost all the aments are not

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Speaker 1: nearly so long as this. Here is an example, Sweet mother,

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00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,280
Speaker 1: I cannot weave my web broken as I am by

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00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,439
Speaker 1: longing for a boy at soft aphrodite's will. One that

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Speaker 1: we think from a wedding poem goes neither honey nor

285
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Speaker 1: be for me. I don't know why I love that

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00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:24,440
Speaker 1: I do neither of the above. Another fragment just says

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00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,639
Speaker 1: shot with a thousand hues, and one reads and I

288
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,400
Speaker 1: flutter like a child after her mother, And one fragment

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00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,640
Speaker 1: is simply the words you burn me. Sappho's fragments can

290
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 1: be really evocative, and then combined with her pretty mysterious biography,

291
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 1: they can just be beguiling. But the fact that they're

292
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,719
Speaker 1: so fragmented and scattered makes her work really difficult to study.

293
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,920
Speaker 1: We have a sense that she wrote lots of love poems,

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Speaker 1: and that she wrote lots of poems for people's weddings.

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00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 1: Her work seems to carry a lot of affection as well,

296
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 1: including physical affection from and women, but we don't necessarily

297
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 1: have the greatest sense of what the whole body of

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00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,120
Speaker 1: her work is like. There's some guesswork going on, especially

299
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 1: since some of the fragments are so short that we're

300
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 1: not even a hundred percent sure that Sappho really wrote them,

301
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 1: And we'll get into why there's so little of Sappho's

302
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 1: work left today to study after we have another sponsor break.

303
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,960
Speaker 1: As far as we know, during her lifetime and at

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Speaker 1: least for a while afterwards, Sappho was deeply respected and

305
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,000
Speaker 1: admired as a poet and a person. Plato, who lived

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00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 1: roughly two hundred years after she did, wrote quote some

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Speaker 1: say them uses are nine, but how carelessly look at

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Speaker 1: the tenth Sappho from Lesbus. It doesn't seem as though

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00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,120
Speaker 1: her contemporaries really questioned her character in any way. I mean,

310
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 1: after all, she was getting a lot of commissions to

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00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: write poetry for people's weddings, and that doesn't seem like

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00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,919
Speaker 1: it would be happening if she were socially reviled. But

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00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,399
Speaker 1: in the century since then, people have interpreted Sappho in

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00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 1: vastly different ways. In the words of Holt and Parker quote,

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00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 1: every age creates its own Sappho, and many of these

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00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 1: creations have imagined Sappho as being, at least in the

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00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 1: morality of the time, deviant or depraved. Some of these

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00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,720
Speaker 1: shifts are thanks to her being from the island of

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Speaker 1: les Bus. While she was living, les Bus was considered

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00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: to be a place full of passion and poetry and sensuality,

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00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 1: although also with a lot of political turmoil and in fighting,

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00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 1: which is why Sappho and her family may have fled

323
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 1: at some point possibly see our Haynes, who we quoted

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00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,880
Speaker 1: at the top of the show, described it this way

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00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 1: quote the Aoliens of Lesbas were a vigorous and gifted race,

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Speaker 1: brave and war enterprising and trade, vehement and politics eminent,

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Speaker 1: and poetry and music. But within a few centuries after

328
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 1: her death, prevailing opinion of the island of Lesbas had shifted.

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00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 1: That tendency towards passion and wealth moved more into perceived

330
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: hedonism and excess. Lesbis went from being thought of as

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00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 1: a place of beauty and refinement to one of licentiousness

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00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 1: and corruption. The Greek word lesbias in meaning acting like

333
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,919
Speaker 1: someone from Lesbus, became associated with impurity and one specific

334
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: sex act, that being Fallacio. It wasn't just about the island,

335
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 1: though eventually this also extended to Sappho herself. Greek comedy

336
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: tended to be in one way or another satirical, although

337
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 1: the exact nature and the primary targets of the satire

338
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 1: shifted over time. In the in the sort of history

339
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: of Greek comedy, and starting a couple of centuries after

340
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 1: she died, Sappho became the target of this satire. Her

341
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 1: name was used for characters in several Greek comedies, and

342
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: those characters were usually depicted as wanton and lustful and

343
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 1: just excessively sexual with young men. Society's understanding of relationships

344
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 1: and gender roles shifts over time, so it's certain that

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00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: romantic and physical relationships were viewed very differently on Lesbos

346
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 1: in the seventh century b c. Than they are in

347
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,360
Speaker 1: various cultures today. But we know virtually nothing about the details,

348
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: and many of the authors who have speculated about it

349
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: have tried to draw conclusions based on ancient Sparta. But

350
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: our understanding of Spartan society is also limited, and it

351
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 1: was a completely different society from Lesbi's, located in a

352
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 1: different part of Greece, and it flourished starting two hundred

353
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 1: years or so after Sappho's death. However, we do know

354
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: that same sex relationships became increasingly taboo in parts of

355
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 1: Europe in the centuries after Sappa lived, so they don't

356
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 1: really know how they were regarded while she was living

357
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: and where she was living, but we do know that

358
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: it became more and more taboo afterward, and as that happened,

359
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: the idea that Sappho was dv because of her lust

360
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: for young men morphed into the idea that she was

361
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: deviant because of her lust for young women. The first

362
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: reference to this that we know about was written in

363
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 1: the second or third century CE. In the sixteenth century,

364
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: humanist scholars claimed that Christian Church officials had burned Sappho's

365
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: work for this reason at least twice. That Bishop Gregory

366
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 1: nazi Enzen of Constantinople had done so in three eighty,

367
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: followed by Pope Gregory the Seventh in ten seventy three,

368
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 1: but it's not clear whether these burnings actually happened, especially

369
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: since Bishop Gregory himself was known to quote from Sappho. Yeah,

370
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: it's there's some conjecture that over the centuries, two different

371
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: Gregory's were conflated together into this one person who supposedly

372
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 1: did this burning. Even if her work was burned by

373
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: the church because of perceptions about Sappho's morality, that would

374
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: not account for so much of its loss. There were

375
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: also floods and accidental fires, and that aging of the

376
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: material that the poetry was recorded on, and fewer and

377
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: fewer people speaking a Olian Greek, meaning that there was

378
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: less and less demand for new copies of her work

379
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: to be printed or written or copied. Sappho didn't fade

380
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: into total obscurity, though we mentioned in our Christine to

381
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: Pizzant episode that she's named in the Book of the

382
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: City of Ladies, which was written in fourteen o five.

383
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: By the sixteenth century, though, what most people knew about

384
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: Sappho really came from Ovid's Herodies rather than from anything

385
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: about her actual biography or her work. By the eighteenth century,

386
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: even less of Sappho's poetry was known to the world

387
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: than the six hundred fifty lines we have today, and

388
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: the words Sapphic and lesbian had taken on entirely different

389
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: meanings than what they'd initially meant, which was basically related

390
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 1: to Sappho or related to the island of Lesbis. Lesbian

391
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: was first used in writing to describe a woman who

392
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: is physically or romantically involved with another woman in seventeen

393
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: thirty two, and saffic was used in association with same sex,

394
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: desire and relationships among women. A few years later. The

395
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: first appearance of the word sapphic in writing was in

396
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: a seventeen sixty one translation of Plato, which read quote,

397
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 1: their affections tend rather to their own sex, and of

398
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: this kind are the sapphic lovers. So by the Romantic

399
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: era in Europe, both Sappho and the island of Lesbus

400
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: had become inextricably connected to the idea of homosexuality among women,

401
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: which was also culturally very taboo and in some cases outlawed.

402
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: But in spite of that, in the nineteenth century, Sappho's

403
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: poetry experienced a surge in popularity. The Romantics found the

404
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,959
Speaker 1: emotional depth of her poems and the fragments really appealing.

405
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: She started appearing in poems by people like Byron and

406
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: bade Laire, although not necessarily in what we would call

407
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: a favorable light. Then, in the late nineteenth and early

408
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: twenty centuries, a collection of manuscripts was unearthed near the

409
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: Egyptian city of Oxyrynchus, drastically increasing the number of known

410
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: Sappho fragments and giving people way more of them to

411
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: study and read. Running alongside this increasing popularity was an

412
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: attempt to reform Sappho's image into something that wasn't contrary

413
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 1: to nineteenth century morality. In eighteen sixteen, Frederick Gottlin Welker

414
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: published Sappho Freed from a Prevailing Prejudice, which tried to

415
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: reinterpret her poetry in a way that minimized the homo

416
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: eroticism of her work, and this did start to shift

417
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: people's opinions about Sappho. But then in Pierre Luis published

418
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: Chanson de Bilitis, which was supposedly a collection of newly

419
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: discovered poems written by one of Sappho's female students, who

420
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: was named in the French pronunciation beauty. These were really

421
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: a work of poetic fiction, though these poems are very

422
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: erotic and sensual on though people really quickly figured out

423
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: that they were not really written by one of Sappho's students,

424
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: it did reinforce the connection between Sappho and homosexual relationships

425
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: among women that Welker had been trying to minimize and

426
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: his earlier work, and that led to another effort to

427
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: try to reimagine Sappho's identity in nineteen thirteen led by

428
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: Ulrich von Velamovitz. His Sappho and somonodies drew from Welker's

429
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: eighteen sixteen work, and it depicted Sappho as a spinster

430
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: ish schoolmarm. This work also really reinforced the idea that

431
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: Sappho was a teacher at a formal school with young

432
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: women as her pupils, and this depiction is based on

433
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: his reinterpreting her poetry, not on historical research. Today, Sappho

434
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: seems really intrinsically connected to the idea of lesbian, which

435
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: can describe a person's sexual orientation as well as their

436
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: political or social identity, and that connection was really reinforced

437
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: during the early years of the gay rights movement in

438
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: the United States when it was still known as the

439
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: homophile movement. In nineteen fifty five, for lesbian couples formed

440
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: the Daughters of Belts that's spelled the same way as Belaitis,

441
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: which Tracy said earlier pronounced differently uh. They included activists

442
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: Phillis Lion and del Martin, who later became the first

443
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: same sex couple to get married in San Francisco, and

444
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: it began allowing same sex marriages in two thousand four,

445
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: and this was part social club, part support group, part

446
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: education and advocacy organization. They named themselves the Daughters of

447
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: Beltis after that eight Chanson Debilities collection. And by this

448
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: point everyone knew and quotation marks that the historic Sappho

449
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: was a lesbian. So the name Belitus let the organization

450
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: connect itself to Sappho and signal to potential members what

451
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: the organization was for without needing to publicly express who

452
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: and what the organization was for. Because of the social

453
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 1: climate and in some cases the law, just publicly declaring

454
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: that this was an organization for lesbians was not possible.

455
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: In the Daughters of belid Has created a newsletter called

456
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 1: The Ladder, which developed a national readership, and the organization

457
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: itself became the first national lesbian organization in the United States.

458
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: And as time went on, Sappho became increasingly present in

459
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: the pages of The Ladder, which also had a poetry

460
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: column called Sapphistries. All of this continued to reinforce that

461
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: connection between Sappho and the lesbian community. So that is Sappho.

462
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: We know literally almost nothing about her, and this whole

463
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: story reminds me a lot of Jenny Lynde who was

464
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: supposed to be just the world's most incredible opera singer,

465
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: but of whom we have no recordings. Yeah, yeah, I

466
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: think there's always that thing. Right. We talked about how

467
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: there are many attempts to reinterpret and and shift her

468
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: identity over time, And it is like that trick when

469
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: you only have these tiny bits and fragments. The people

470
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: can want a thing so badly that they will interpret

471
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: it in whichever way makes them the most comfortable with

472
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: the material or like aligns with their ideas of of

473
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: this historical figure that we really have just the vaguest

474
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: smattering of information about. Yeah, well, and there's so many

475
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: of the things that we in in theory know about

476
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: her are like, Okay, are these three brothers? Are those

477
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: three brothers her brothers and she mentioned them in her poetry?

478
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: Or have those names been picked to stand for her

479
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: brothers because those are names that appeared in her poetry.

480
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: It's sort of a chicken and egg situation where like

481
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: we don't really know which then led to which, or

482
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: they someone else's brother nothing to do with her at

483
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: all because it was a commission. Right, Was this poem

484
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: written in a someone else's voice, not Sappho's personal expressions. Anyway,

485
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: I love her and I think she's fascinating, even though

486
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: I know literally tiny amount about any of it. Uh.

487
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: There you go. Do you have a listener mail? Uh?

488
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: Sort of. Um. We recently did an episode about Olga

489
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: of Kiev, and when we started promoting that episode, we

490
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: heard from a couple of listeners about the spelling that

491
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: we used for Kiev. Because we used the spelling ki

492
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: e V, which is like the spelling you'll find it

493
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: a lot of American English dictionaries and style guides and

494
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,239
Speaker 1: a lot of news media used that spelling. It is

495
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: not the preferred spelling in Ukraine, which is where the

496
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: city is actually located. And it's not just that that's

497
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: not the spelling in Ukraine, it's that the government of

498
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: Ukraine has literally asked all of the news organizations and

499
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: publications and just general people to please use a different

500
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: spelling for the name. Um. I was absolutely ignorant of

501
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: this entire discussion, so I apologize for my oversight, and

502
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: I just wanted to read the statement that the Ministry

503
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine put out about all of it,

504
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: because I think it's sort of clearly sums up why

505
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: the spelling difference exists and why it matters um and

506
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: it says, in accordance with the tenth United Nations Conference

507
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: on the Standardization of Geographical Names, we politely request all

508
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: countries and organizations to review and where necessary, amend their

509
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: usage of outdated Soviet era place names when referring to Ukraine.

510
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: Ukraine has been an independent sovereign nation for more than

511
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: twenty seven years, but the Soviet era versions of many

512
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: geographic names stubbornly persist in international practice. The transliteration of

513
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: the names of cities, regions, and rivers from the Cyrillic

514
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: alphabet into Latin are often mistakenly based on the Russian

515
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: form of the name, not the Ukrainian. So this uh

516
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: statement then goes on to list a lot of the

517
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: most commonly misspelled names. That one at the top of

518
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: the list is the Ukraine with a the which we

519
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: have fortunately avoided using our own show. The second one

520
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: after that is Kiv, which is spelled k y i V,

521
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: not ki e V the way we spelled it. There's

522
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: a slight nuance to how these are pronounced, and it's

523
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: as a speaker of neither Russian nor Ukrainian, I like

524
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: I can't really accurately replicate that slight difference. UH to

525
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: return to the statement. Under the Russian Empire and later

526
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic's USSR, rucification was actively

527
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: used as a tool to extinguish each constituent country's national identity, culture,

528
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: and the language and light of Russia's war of aggression

529
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: against Ukraine, including its illegal occupation of Crimea. We are

530
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: once again experiencing rucification as a tactic that attempts to

531
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: destabilize and delegitimize our country. You will appreciate, we hope,

532
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: how the use of Soviet era place names rooted in

533
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: the Russian language is especially painful and unacceptable to the

534
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: people of Ukraine. To help avoid these mistakes, we refer

535
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: you to page twenty seven of the Resolution x slash

536
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: nine Romanization of Ukrainian Geographical Names adopted by the tenth

537
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: u N Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names, which

538
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: recommends the Romanization system in Ukraine as the international system

539
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: for the transliterations of Ukrainian geographical names. To better inform

540
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: the international community about the correct forms of Ukrainian place

541
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: names and to avoid mistakes. We are launching the campaign

542
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: hashtag correct UA. Your support in helping to ensure that

543
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: the correct internationally agreed place names for Ukraine are adopted

544
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: in your organization is greatly appreciated, So thank you to

545
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: the folks who pointed out that oversight to us. I

546
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: apologize for it. It was a hut of sent me

547
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: being ignorant um and not an attempt to wilfully ignore

548
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: the wishes of the nation of Ukraine um, and we

549
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: will uh be better about that going forward. I have

550
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: bookmarked the most commonly misspelled names for my future reference.

551
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us about this

552
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: or any other podcast history podcasts at how stuff Works

553
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: dot com and then we're all over social media at

554
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: miss in History. That's where you'll find our Facebook, Pinterest, Instagram,

555
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: and Twitter. You can also come to our website, which

556
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: is missed in history dot com and find show notes

557
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: for all the episodes Holly and I have ever worked

558
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: on together. Today's show notes include links to a lot

559
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: of the poetry from Sappho that you can read online

560
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: for yourself if you would like. You can also find

561
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: a searchable archive of every episode ever, and you can

562
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 1: subscribe to our show on Apple podcast, the iHeart Radio app,

563
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: and anywhere else you get your podcasts. For more on

564
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, visit how staff works

565
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: dot com. Mmmm