Speaker 1: This is a me eater podcast coming at you shirtless,
Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening the hood
Speaker 1: Don't Make Me Eat podcast. You can't predict anything, alright, guys,
Speaker 1: thanks for coming out, man um whenever I'm doing so now.
Speaker 1: I was trying to think of like clever uh stuff
Speaker 1: to say in the beginning, But all I can think
Speaker 1: about is the thing that's probably the dorkyest thing to
Speaker 1: talk about, because you guys live here and you're used
Speaker 1: to people like I'm from the northern tier. Man. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I can't like, I can't not discuss I can'tnot bring
Speaker 1: up the heat. The only thing I've ever it's it's
Speaker 1: like the only that every I've been going to hot
Speaker 1: yoga with my wife and it's like walking on the street.
Speaker 1: I keep expecting to turn around and see the mrs
Speaker 1: bent over backward on a rubber matt. It really like
Speaker 1: it's like the heat the heat is is synthetic. It's
Speaker 1: the weirdest kind of thing. Uh. But you know some
Speaker 1: other stuff about Arizona, man, I think about like I
Speaker 1: I stay apprized of of wildlife, e hunting and fishing
Speaker 1: news stuff, and you guys keep coming up on my
Speaker 1: radar where in February. Also, on one day, I'm getting
Speaker 1: blown up by people like, dude, They're gonna have a
Speaker 1: wild horse hunt in Arizona, and I'm thinking that's not
Speaker 1: gonna go well. And then and then the next day
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, they canceled the wild horse hunt. You know.
Speaker 1: In the other day, I was like, really sadden to
Speaker 1: hear about the you know, you guys got maybe two
Speaker 1: jaguars and one of them turned up dead in Mexico,
Speaker 1: which was a major bummer. And I got thinking, like,
Speaker 1: you got forty was in wild horses and no one
Speaker 1: can touch him. You've got two jaguars and ones dad,
Speaker 1: and you guys got it all wrong. Um. So I
Speaker 1: do have some good things to talk about down here.
Speaker 1: Like I came down here my first ever successful coups
Speaker 1: deer hunt was in Arizona, very much, very much. I
Speaker 1: have to thank for that, you guys very own outdoorsmans
Speaker 1: the store if you ever go down there. Those boys
Speaker 1: lined me out on it. And I came down here
Speaker 1: for my first two very unsuccessful mountain lion hunts. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I'll always remember you guys for that. And
Speaker 1: I thought of you guys earlier. Yes, I guess I
Speaker 1: got the email yesterday but didn't read it till today,
Speaker 1: and I thought you because I was reading about this
Speaker 1: new thing that just came out about Neanderthals. Now that
Speaker 1: I think of you guys in deaner Thals, but check
Speaker 1: me out. They just recently in Germany found this fallow
Speaker 1: deer carcass from a hund twenty thousand years ago that
Speaker 1: had very peculiar injuries on the deer, and they realized
Speaker 1: that a Neanderthal had killed it with a low velocity spear,
Speaker 1: which implies that the Neanderthal and they recreated on other animals,
Speaker 1: they're able to recreate the injuries, and it was from
Speaker 1: a sharpened wooden spear, and it was a low velocity impact,
Speaker 1: meaning that it wasn't like he hucked it, he jabbed it.
Speaker 1: And the angle and they feel that he jabbed with
Speaker 1: an underhand motion. So everybody has his idea in the
Speaker 1: Nderthal is like knuckle draggers, right, they don't know what's
Speaker 1: going on, but this opens up the idea that they
Speaker 1: were doing some kind of coordinated hunting activities, like they're
Speaker 1: working together and using concealment and getting up very close
Speaker 1: to a foul deer to where a guy could just
Speaker 1: go pop and kill it and um so, which means
Speaker 1: they are working as a team. And I'm telling you
Speaker 1: what in Arizona, Like, I think it's because the way
Speaker 1: they do tag draws here. When a guy draws a
Speaker 1: tag in Arizona, he goes with twelve guys and half
Speaker 1: the firebarner were There's like when I'm looking at a
Speaker 1: hunt magazine and I see like some dude with some
Speaker 1: giant mule doing there's like fifty guys lined up behind
Speaker 1: them on their camel. I'm like, that's Arizona, man, I
Speaker 1: guarantee it, you know. So I do appreciate the camaraderie.
Speaker 1: Everybody gets one burger, yeah, exactly, we need to buy
Speaker 1: it up. It's like I got my share in my
Speaker 1: front pocket. So I've always appreciated about that. Like when
Speaker 1: someone has it's like you know, when your house is
Speaker 1: on fire and expect everybody to come running. When someone
Speaker 1: in the Arizona draws a tag, it's like I'm in
Speaker 1: and you guys head out. I want to hit some introductions.
Speaker 1: So Lavin Eagle, you're honest, who tell us everyone knows
Speaker 1: yournice and then on rare occasion, my big brother Matt
Speaker 1: will join. And then we have uh Dr Carl Malcolm
Speaker 1: who's been on a number of times and always comes
Speaker 1: and brings his expertise to us. So thank you. But yeah,
Speaker 1: first question for you guys, can you talk a little bit?
Speaker 1: I just want people understand a little like, like like the
Speaker 1: kinds of things you look at. Yeah, I'm a research
Speaker 1: ecologist for U. S D. A. Um. I when you
Speaker 1: probably think of an ecologist to think of somebody's outside
Speaker 1: looking at birds and plants and bees and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But really what I do on a daily basis and
Speaker 1: administer grants and write computer code and do statistics. So
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of a geeky kind of a science
Speaker 1: guy that sits at a desk. I guess, um, can
Speaker 1: you can you ever hear him? Okay, it sound like
Speaker 1: to me it sounds like not loud. Now you're you're good, Drew.
Speaker 1: Can you start projecting from my bowels like acting student? Um? Yes,
Speaker 1: a lot of statistics and Carl, do you want to
Speaker 1: break it down? Yeah? So also an ecologist. Um. Rather
Speaker 1: than doing a lot of research as an ecologist, what
Speaker 1: I do is a lot of trying to apply the
Speaker 1: best available science that other people are producing to wildlife management,
Speaker 1: wildlife survey question. So kind of a tech transfer position.
Speaker 1: But I also get to do a lot of teaching. UM.
Speaker 1: Had a chance to work with the Forest Services International
Speaker 1: Programs doing some wildlife ecology trainings in places like Russia,
Speaker 1: to get a chance to travel internationally UM and then
Speaker 1: one of the coolest things, one of the things I
Speaker 1: like most is opportunities to try to communicate about the
Speaker 1: significance of the work that we do to the people
Speaker 1: for whom we actually work, which are the American people.
Speaker 1: You know. I like to think about working for an
Speaker 1: agency as being a career that you should feel very grateful,
Speaker 1: were very privileged, and very service oriented. So when I
Speaker 1: meet people for the first time and the like who
Speaker 1: do you work for? I like to say, well, I
Speaker 1: work for you, work for all of you. You know,
Speaker 1: you guys are my boss and uh as things, you know,
Speaker 1: we have new chiefs come in, we have new administrations
Speaker 1: come in. Things change over time, but the one consistent
Speaker 1: fact is that public services employees and agencies like the U.
Speaker 1: S d A Forest Service work for the American people.
Speaker 1: So I work for all of you trying to help
Speaker 1: care for the single greatest public land system on the planet. Uh,
Speaker 1: this guy needs a new drink, Carl. So with that,
Speaker 1: I wanna now you understand that I want to bring
Speaker 1: up something that recently happened to me where on a
Speaker 1: previous show. I yeah, you guys don't want a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot of turkeys, but you want some turkeys
Speaker 1: in Arizona, right? So who everyone who was like hunted
Speaker 1: turkeys just do like a yup. Oh really got you
Speaker 1: guys all wrong. So one day I was like, anyone
Speaker 1: who hunt Turvey's lot knows that the thing is that
Speaker 1: everythinks is gonna happen is you're gonna set up and
Speaker 1: call one off a tree and he's gonna come running
Speaker 1: over to you. And one day I was like, looking
Speaker 1: at how many times you try to do that and
Speaker 1: how many times it actually happens? And I got the
Speaker 1: wondering if if it's if it's any better than just
Speaker 1: sitting there and not doing anything and waiting to see
Speaker 1: if one comes by you, Like, what what are the
Speaker 1: odds that one would come by you? And a guy
Speaker 1: came up with this, You guys, I can't see this,
Speaker 1: but He came up with this very elaborate formula that
Speaker 1: explains that if you get a hundred yards from a
Speaker 1: bird in a roost tree, and you figured that you
Speaker 1: got thirty yards of range that way and thirty yards
Speaker 1: of range that way, you have a nine point four
Speaker 1: percent chance that the bird will just naturally come by you,
Speaker 1: Which winds up for me calling in the question like
Speaker 1: what exactly I was doing out in the woods that
Speaker 1: whole time, because I don't old that I've even hit
Speaker 1: like I'm doing like probably like slightly better than what
Speaker 1: I would do if I just sat in the woods
Speaker 1: by all the antics and all the calling. But I
Speaker 1: showed us to Carl and you, um, you were you
Speaker 1: gave him a for effort. I'm giving this guy in
Speaker 1: a with an opportunity for extra credit, all right because
Speaker 1: his math is sound. Um. I feel like, remember when
Speaker 1: you're in like junior high high school, you're in some
Speaker 1: dry math lecture and they give you a word problem.
Speaker 1: I feel like if one of my teachers would have
Speaker 1: given me this particular word problem, like spelling it out.
Speaker 1: You're this many yards from the tree, you can shoot
Speaker 1: this far in any direction. What's the likelihood of killing
Speaker 1: a turkey. My attention would have perked up in a
Speaker 1: big way in that class. I've been like, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm ready for some math. Let's do this. So there's
Speaker 1: probably gonna be a lower volume yep here, but how
Speaker 1: many people remember from your trigonometry class? So cut toa yep,
Speaker 1: all right, that's a dude, Sokata no um sokotoa. That
Speaker 1: was a Japanese philosopher. Now this pertains to write triangles
Speaker 1: and how you calculate um. You can calculate the degrees
Speaker 1: of a given angle based on knowing the ratio of
Speaker 1: length two where the right corner is in the triangle,
Speaker 1: and you can use either the sign function, the cosign function,
Speaker 1: or the tangent function. And so this guy basically did
Speaker 1: a really cool little formula, very simple, very straightforward. It
Speaker 1: gives you an answer um about the likelihood given some
Speaker 1: assumptions of a turkey randomly walking past you. I'm not
Speaker 1: disagreeing with any of that, But when you emailed me this,
Speaker 1: I said, it looks like his math is sound, but
Speaker 1: what matters is whether or not you care about killing
Speaker 1: the turkey, because in his in his language, he says,
Speaker 1: here's a function that will tell you the likelihood of
Speaker 1: the turkey walking past you, not the likelihood of you
Speaker 1: killing the turkey, and those are two very different things.
Speaker 1: Anybody ever have a turkey like walk within range that
Speaker 1: didn't end up getting shot? Yep, yeah I have. Alright,
Speaker 1: So for extra credit, again, I'm not knocking this guy's math.
Speaker 1: I think he did a very sound job. He would
Speaker 1: factor in all. You know. There's a couple of variables.
Speaker 1: And to back me up, I'm gonna go to the
Speaker 1: single greatest turkey hunting book ever written by anyone, which
Speaker 1: we talk about often on this year program, tenth Legion,
Speaker 1: Colonel Tom Kelly. All right, so for starters, if you
Speaker 1: want to kill the bird, and I'm going to the
Speaker 1: techniques chapter here, I'm gonna quote the colonel number one.
Speaker 1: What you are interested in here is not shotgun artistry,
Speaker 1: but the simple delivery of a charge of shot. A
Speaker 1: delivery affected often through a hole the size of a grapefruit,
Speaker 1: or through a slit like the crack between two loosely
Speaker 1: fitting barn doors. You normally only have to deliver it once,
Speaker 1: and except to ease the cramped position you may be
Speaker 1: delivering it from, you seldom have to do it in
Speaker 1: a hurry. So what the colonel is getting at here
Speaker 1: is that oftentimes the bird might be in range, you
Speaker 1: simply don't have a shot. So the first challenge I
Speaker 1: would put to this listener is to come up with
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna call a visibility correction factor. So you
Speaker 1: could imagine theoretically the difference between sitting, for example, in
Speaker 1: the middle of an agricultural field, with turkeys walking by
Speaker 1: you at thirty yards hi VCF hi VCF visibility correction factor.
Speaker 1: I like it you're tracking, and you can imagine being
Speaker 1: on a real flat surface, or you could imagine being
Speaker 1: in a relatively hilly landscape where maybe the turkey has
Speaker 1: the ability to drop down out of sight or thickly
Speaker 1: vegetat did Okay, So there's got to be some function
Speaker 1: that this trigonometry expert can come up with that would
Speaker 1: correct for differences in visibility, which is gonna pertain to
Speaker 1: whether or not that turkey ends up in your bag
Speaker 1: or hoffing for the next ridge. Okay, there's one suggestion. Again,
Speaker 1: this is extra credit because the math is sound, all right.
Speaker 1: The next one pertains to a very important skill set
Speaker 1: that I think only a small number of turkey hunters
Speaker 1: have mastered all right. And the kernel in tenth Legion
Speaker 1: talks about being being seated such that both knees are
Speaker 1: bent and propped up in front of you, high enough
Speaker 1: to make your gun assuming angle of forty five degrees.
Speaker 1: You've achieved this position for several reasons. It lets you
Speaker 1: keep the gun partially presented all the time. It is
Speaker 1: as comfortable as any If a turkey approaches from your left,
Speaker 1: he is under the gun. And if he comes from
Speaker 1: directly in front of you, you can ease the gun
Speaker 1: from your left kneedier right and at the proper time
Speaker 1: slouched down even lower, and let the barrel down until
Speaker 1: it bears. Now imagine this, everybody. The direction you are
Speaker 1: facing is considered to be twelve o'clock straight ahead. And
Speaker 1: the colonel was a right handed man, a turkey gobbler,
Speaker 1: who has been keeping you pinned down for an hour
Speaker 1: and a half steps around an oak tree in plain
Speaker 1: sight at thirty yards at quarter after three. If you
Speaker 1: were at quarter to nine, skill and intelligence would have
Speaker 1: again trumped over ignorance and superstition. But he ain't okay,
Speaker 1: So the colonel goes on to say, there's two ways
Speaker 1: you can kill this turkey over here at quarter after three.
Speaker 1: The first one is, if you are a practicing voodoo
Speaker 1: witch doctor, you can strike him dead with a glance.
Speaker 1: It goes on to say, it's a wonderful way to
Speaker 1: kill him. Not only does it save shells, which are
Speaker 1: so expensive nowadays, but it does not spoil the meat. If, however,
Speaker 1: you are a mere mortal not skilled in witchcraft or
Speaker 1: spells or incantations, you can do one other thing. You
Speaker 1: can very very slowly, one inch at a time, carefully
Speaker 1: change hands, bring the gun up to the left shoulder,
Speaker 1: squinch up your right eye, look down the barrel, and
Speaker 1: bust him right where he stands, in the plain, old fashioned,
Speaker 1: expensive way the rest of us do with the shotgun.
Speaker 1: So the next variable is what I'm going to call
Speaker 1: the Kelly factor. Yeah, can the shooter pull off what
Speaker 1: he's talking about and shoot ambidextrous lee? Can they shoot
Speaker 1: everything from nine o'clock to three o'clock what Colonel Kelly
Speaker 1: calls turning three o'clock birds into nine o'clock birds. And
Speaker 1: so the other extra credit opportunity for this listener would
Speaker 1: be figuring in the Kelly factor, what was his dude's
Speaker 1: name Adam d Noack. Got more work to do, more
Speaker 1: work to do? Uh another like slightly like a numbers
Speaker 1: question for you guys, Matt, I won day mutilated something
Speaker 1: you were saying about how many stars there how many
Speaker 1: planets there are? We're like being interested in animals kind
Speaker 1: of up. I'm sorry, some something's gonna bug me for
Speaker 1: the rest of the night if I don't say now,
Speaker 1: and then Adam's gonna email me and be like, dude,
Speaker 1: come on. When he first showed up and gave us
Speaker 1: those pieces of paper, he said, this is in like
Speaker 1: a perfect scenario. You're pretty much like working a bird
Speaker 1: coming off of a single oak tree and you've got
Speaker 1: no other you know, no vegg around, you know, nothing
Speaker 1: rolling at all. He gave the answer to the toy problem,
Speaker 1: which is like an excellent starting point. Yeah, exactly, dude,
Speaker 1: I'm not knocking, so I'm just saying that he kind
Speaker 1: of already gotten something credit. He did not say anything
Speaker 1: about the Kelly Kelly factor. Yeah, yeah, but your thing was,
Speaker 1: but all the birds that just fly off, there's that too.
Speaker 1: There's also there's also the CSTB factor. CSTV can't can't
Speaker 1: see the beard. Oh, that's good. That's good, And there's
Speaker 1: a there's another variable to play. One of the assumptions
Speaker 1: would be that the turkey has not detected you on
Speaker 1: your approach, because you're making this assumption that you know
Speaker 1: degrees in a circle, and he's saying random chance that
Speaker 1: bird could go any direction. But it's pretty darn hard
Speaker 1: to get in on a bird and not tip your
Speaker 1: hand at least a little bit to the fact that
Speaker 1: you're there in the woods. So there's some assumptions that
Speaker 1: play here. I'm not giving the guy anything less than
Speaker 1: an and just saying anything like now I was I'm
Speaker 1: getting that framed and hanging out my wall, and nothing
Speaker 1: you're saying is maybe not want to hand. He gave
Speaker 1: a very elegant solution to the basic I like it. Yeah, Uh,
Speaker 1: being interested in animals, I'm interesting the idea of other
Speaker 1: animals on other planets. This comes up often, and uh,
Speaker 1: one day I was saying something like one day I
Speaker 1: was talking about saying my brother, this guy here, I
Speaker 1: was saying, he was telling me that, considering how many
Speaker 1: other planets there are, you were like, I'm pretty open
Speaker 1: to the idea that there is an eight foot wookie
Speaker 1: who hangs out with a smuggler, like and a dude
Speaker 1: wrote in and he goes, you know how many are there?
Speaker 1: Because I've heard that there are many as many planets
Speaker 1: as there are grains of sand on Earth. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: I I heard this. I heard a podcast not long
Speaker 1: ago with a physicist and he was saying that, like, theoretically,
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible that there are so many um possibilities
Speaker 1: for life in the universe that there's probably like somebody,
Speaker 1: a group of an ensemble of people somewhere that look
Speaker 1: exactly like all of us talking about you. First, you'd
Speaker 1: come across the scene where everybody is doing like we're doing,
Speaker 1: and it's all exactly the same, except us has a
Speaker 1: green shirt. But then if you go further, the chance
Speaker 1: that a turkey walks past you. But yeah, so there's
Speaker 1: this idea that's floating around that's avant garde and physics.
Speaker 1: Now that you know, if you're willing to look far enough,
Speaker 1: you could find this and not just a wookie. Okay,
Speaker 1: another statistics one. And you kind of talked about this early,
Speaker 1: And I really want to get into this because this
Speaker 1: is something that comes up with people all the time
Speaker 1: having another encounters with grizzly bears, and I always felt
Speaker 1: like like I had in my head to be that man,
Speaker 1: it seems like it's heading, it's leading somewhere, like this
Speaker 1: is going somewhere that every time you know you go
Speaker 1: in the woods, it feels like you're going to the
Speaker 1: grizzly bear areas. It feels like it's just heading in
Speaker 1: a direction. And then this October we had like a
Speaker 1: really like like a big mix up with a bear
Speaker 1: and there was a really real close call and there
Speaker 1: was physical contact, uh, with a big brown bear. And
Speaker 1: I later said, like, I feel like I was going
Speaker 1: down a canyon wall wondering where the bottom was, and
Speaker 1: that I had found the bottom now that that was
Speaker 1: where this was headed and now there's no way it
Speaker 1: could get worse. And I was now climbing out of
Speaker 1: the canyon wall, and three different guys rode in to
Speaker 1: say that uh, And I was just expressing kind of
Speaker 1: like how I felt. But three different guys rode in
Speaker 1: to say that what you're committing is something called the
Speaker 1: gam There's fallacy, or the Monte Carlo fallacy, or the
Speaker 1: fallacy of the maturity of chances, which he pointed out.
Speaker 1: One of the guys pointed out tends to afflict people
Speaker 1: who are involved in tag draws, big game tag draws.
Speaker 1: And this is something I've asked you, Matt about a
Speaker 1: thousand times, is how does one call like I used
Speaker 1: to feel like I'd be like, okay, if there's a
Speaker 1: chance to draw on a tag, right, I'd be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: in four years, I'll have that bit right, which isn't
Speaker 1: how it works. Can you Can you span on this
Speaker 1: for a minute. It's a lot to expand on there.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, there's a lot to explore. Their probabilities
Speaker 1: are not intuitive miracle objects. Um. First of all, like
Speaker 1: this idea that you had that when when you're your
Speaker 1: analogy about descending a slope and I'm assuming your meaning
Speaker 1: that you felt like the likelihood that you were going
Speaker 1: to get attacked was increasing. Yeah, like the more exposure,
Speaker 1: the greater the chance the attack. And then I feel
Speaker 1: like the attack happened, and I was like, oh, so
Speaker 1: there I've happened, and and now I just feel like
Speaker 1: it won't. Yeah, I can see what I've never heard
Speaker 1: it called the gambler's fallacy before, But I can see
Speaker 1: where I mean because gamblers are guilty of that, and
Speaker 1: source sports enthusiasts like my team is due, I'm due
Speaker 1: for it. It's kind of a it's a more it's
Speaker 1: it's it's less intuitive way then of thinking, then just
Speaker 1: straightforward induction. Induction is when you think that the future
Speaker 1: is probably gonna resemble the past. It's more of like
Speaker 1: a counter and auctionist standpoint, where me like, I never draw. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems more logical to me to think
Speaker 1: the more um occurrences I have of not getting attacked
Speaker 1: by a bear, the more that should assure me that
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get attacked by a bear. Right,
Speaker 1: you have some prior probability belief about how before you
Speaker 1: ever go on the mountains, about likelihood that you're gonna
Speaker 1: get attacked by a bearon, and it seems logical you
Speaker 1: would adjust that probability by you know, lowering it each
Speaker 1: time you step forward in the woods and don't get
Speaker 1: attacked by a bear, because I now feel like it's
Speaker 1: gonna happen again. You're like, no, this is the You're
Speaker 1: an inductivist. You're an inductive as straight inductivists, which that
Speaker 1: makes more sense to me. Um. But then the logical fails.
Speaker 1: So you can see where it falls apart where it's
Speaker 1: not applicable with tag draws in general, like this notion
Speaker 1: that your due carries weight when they're preference points as
Speaker 1: there normally is, there's a reason to believe your due
Speaker 1: um And then you know these like the logical fallacy thing.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like the people. It's when the draws
Speaker 1: are independent, like you were saying earlier. You know, like
Speaker 1: when you're taking marbles out of the urn and then
Speaker 1: putting them back and drawing again. But if you get
Speaker 1: attacked by a bear. Let's say you hunt the same
Speaker 1: place for twenty years and then you get attacked by
Speaker 1: a bear, I mean, it gets complicated. Maybe that doesn't
Speaker 1: up the probability that you think the next time you're
Speaker 1: gonna go in there that you're gonna get attacked again,
Speaker 1: because maybe they killed that bear and it was the
Speaker 1: only bear in the area. So can you real quick breakdown.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they might get at all talking
Speaker 1: about what you were wanting. You talked about part of it,
Speaker 1: but the other problem I wanted to talk about is
Speaker 1: I think just real quick because that may explain this
Speaker 1: to me and relieving some tensions. I felt of its
Speaker 1: explained to me for the viewers benefit, the listeners benefit.
Speaker 1: What happens when you're repeatedly going in for things that
Speaker 1: you think you have a ten percent chance of? Okay,
Speaker 1: like how those numbers relate. So we talked about this
Speaker 1: a little bit, because what am I say, Like, if
Speaker 1: you're a you have a one percent chance of dying
Speaker 1: in a small airplane crash, that doesn't mean that I'm
Speaker 1: the hundred flight. No. Probabilities don't add, they multiply. So
Speaker 1: if you let's just make it as super simple as
Speaker 1: simple as we can. There's no preference points. Okay, So
Speaker 1: it's New Mexico and you put in for a tag,
Speaker 1: we'll right, well, we're gonna divide two variables. And this
Speaker 1: sounds gonna sound complicated, but it's not. Q is the
Speaker 1: probability that you don't draw the tag? Okay, if you
Speaker 1: ever finding in for your putting in for what are
Speaker 1: the what are the odds gonna be the you work with? Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna give you the answer. I have to
Speaker 1: get my calculator. I'm just gonna give you the formula
Speaker 1: for yourself. I was gonna make an animal. I was
Speaker 1: gonna have it be that we're trying to get an
Speaker 1: animal tag. Um, so the probability, well, we can do that,
Speaker 1: we can do this. So let's say that, um, the
Speaker 1: probability that you don't draw the tag is okay, so
Speaker 1: super super nice LK unit in New Mexico. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: if you put in one once, what's the probability that
Speaker 1: you draw the tag once? If you put in twice,
Speaker 1: it's one minus point nine raised the number of times
Speaker 1: you drew. What's that one minus point eight one? It's
Speaker 1: one night, it's nineteen percent, so you've jumped up the nineteen.
Speaker 1: But then if you put it in again, it's um
Speaker 1: four times, it's thirty six at sixty four. So there's this.
Speaker 1: It never there's it never degrades to a zero percent
Speaker 1: chance that you don't draw, or that you never achieves,
Speaker 1: never achieve. And this is all looking into the future. Right.
Speaker 1: You could say, all right, if I apply for the
Speaker 1: next five or ten or fifteen years, here's my percent
Speaker 1: given all those opportunities. But then next year when you
Speaker 1: apply and don't draw, you're back at a new starting point. Right,
Speaker 1: because their memory lists because they had like there has
Speaker 1: no memory like when you flip a coin, like the
Speaker 1: next point you want, it doesn't want what happened with
Speaker 1: the first point. So the formula is, like I said,
Speaker 1: Q is the percent chance you don't draw it, and
Speaker 1: is the number of times you've been so one minus
Speaker 1: q to the power end. Yep, that's right. How how
Speaker 1: do you guys? This has nothing to do with this
Speaker 1: has nothing to do what we've been talking about. But
Speaker 1: let's be curious because this is the thing that someone
Speaker 1: wonders about and and and it's an interesting question when
Speaker 1: you're out hunting with other people. What are the things
Speaker 1: that you consider when you consider like who's up? Because
Speaker 1: I've done everything from drawing straws that just having a
Speaker 1: sort of like really like complex understanding of what's going on,
Speaker 1: that sort of like what's happened in people's past, what
Speaker 1: sorts of opportunities they've fielded, how far did they come?
Speaker 1: Who's this seem like more special to? And you arrive
Speaker 1: at like you know what, if we find one, you
Speaker 1: go ahead, Thanks, man, you've done. How do you guys
Speaker 1: work that out? Because you said something to me one time,
Speaker 1: you were saying something to me like a problem with
Speaker 1: that you like to hunt by yourself, which I'm gonna
Speaker 1: talk about a little bit. You Matt like to hunt
Speaker 1: by yourself, And you're saying because I never have to
Speaker 1: wonder who's up right, Oh, it's a source of attention. Sure,
Speaker 1: but I would agree you you you described it very well,
Speaker 1: all those like background considerations of well you missed that
Speaker 1: nice one last year and it's been a few years
Speaker 1: and I got one. But I've been working way harder
Speaker 1: and this is first time. Oh he doesn't deserve it,
Speaker 1: it's my spot. Yeah, but he kind of suggested I
Speaker 1: ought to go look here right right. So I've hunted
Speaker 1: more with the honest last few years than anyone, and
Speaker 1: you be honestly, I kind of just take turns like
Speaker 1: it feels like they we're gonna go after something. And
Speaker 1: I was the one in front last time, so yeah,
Speaker 1: you'll be and that seems to work all good. I'm
Speaker 1: still mad that I'm not the one up from but
Speaker 1: so out of YouTube, who's up front right now? Oh?
Speaker 1: Clearly med? Yeah, so you guys got it worked out.
Speaker 1: Who's up just this was a crucial conversation. I wasn't
Speaker 1: playing and I have it on stage, but I'm glad
Speaker 1: to have it, glad to have it. So it's like
Speaker 1: in your mind, you know that this is something that
Speaker 1: has to be sorted out. I was, well, usually happens
Speaker 1: because he gets into the woods a week ahead of me,
Speaker 1: and so by the time I get there, it's just like, hey,
Speaker 1: I got one down, let's go pack it out. I'm like,
Speaker 1: all right, sweet, got here just in time. And then
Speaker 1: I get to it's my turn after that. So do
Speaker 1: you any any special I had had a couple. Um.
Speaker 1: I think the seniority thing is a big one. You know,
Speaker 1: we talked about trying to get new people in the field,
Speaker 1: and I think given like repeated opportunities to somebody who's new,
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense to this idea of seniority. Um.
Speaker 1: I think it's super important to have this figured out
Speaker 1: in advance and then stay committed to it. I've been
Speaker 1: in situations where taking somebody else out on a mule
Speaker 1: deer hunt, for example, like you know, my little brother
Speaker 1: his turn. Then I'm glass and just see a tanker
Speaker 1: buck like that's his turn. You know, I gotta stick
Speaker 1: with it. So like communicating in advance and then stick
Speaker 1: with it. I think when you're glassing, some people will
Speaker 1: go with whoever spots it gonna be their opportunity. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't really, that's too I don't like that. Well
Speaker 1: if you're if you're just too much like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: saw it first. It seems like something my kids. It
Speaker 1: seems like something like like how my kids will decide
Speaker 1: who gets like a lot. Well, so imagine imagine you've
Speaker 1: got like a good glassing spot with a bunch of
Speaker 1: country to cover, and you go to two separate sides, right,
Speaker 1: and I'm glassing in one spot, you're glassing in the other.
Speaker 1: You know, Option one is I glassing up? I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's Steve Stern, come take it. Or Option two is
Speaker 1: whoever spots it goes for it. I'm just laying out option.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you you're right, but you're wrong. Okay.
Speaker 1: If I was hunting with you and we hadn't had
Speaker 1: the discussion, which is I've been in that situation, hadn't
Speaker 1: had the discussion, and we both like with you and me,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be like a big question like who got
Speaker 1: what because we both have a lot of opportunities and
Speaker 1: you said I'm out of here, I spotted it, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, yes, correct, go yeah, but in the back
Speaker 1: of my mind, I'd be like, that was kind of
Speaker 1: a dicksh move. So even though he's got every right
Speaker 1: that you you had, here's the thing everyone does this,
Speaker 1: what do you think right? And you like know where
Speaker 1: you wanted to go so bad and you've got in
Speaker 1: your head you've got it sorted out, but you still
Speaker 1: have the moll w where you give the guy the
Speaker 1: chance to sink or swim. Yes, hunting with with Calahan,
Speaker 1: we one time hadn't had the discussion at all until
Speaker 1: we're looking at a nice buck almost in range and
Speaker 1: we look at each other and it's just like this,
Speaker 1: uh yeah, that's why we hadn't had to talk, and
Speaker 1: that's when we drew straws. That's why I think in
Speaker 1: a straightened out in advance makes sense. If you're gonna
Speaker 1: do like a really sort of sharing partner approach where
Speaker 1: you spotted deer, it's my turn, you let me go
Speaker 1: after it. Let's just have that conversation in advance, stick
Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, it's an awkward conversation, it is. But
Speaker 1: then the last, the last one I would leave you
Speaker 1: with on this topic is um, a guy who I
Speaker 1: loved to hunt with this phenomenal mentor I had in
Speaker 1: New Mexico. We haven't drawn in a couple of years.
Speaker 1: Some reason to like past tense. He's still a guy
Speaker 1: that I'm applying with, but he's a guy in his seventies.
Speaker 1: UM names Dick Paulk phenomenal elk hunter. Grew up around
Speaker 1: deming New Mexico guys just no is this stuff. And
Speaker 1: I moved from the Midwest in New Mexico and this
Speaker 1: guy took me under his wing. And I had very
Speaker 1: limited elk hunting experience, and Dick is a very accomplished
Speaker 1: elk hunter, and so he's very very picky. So we're
Speaker 1: hunting together. And it was basically a scenario where if
Speaker 1: he saw if he found a giant bull, he'd probably
Speaker 1: want to go after it. If I found a giant bowl,
Speaker 1: he'd want me to go after it. And on two
Speaker 1: different occasions there were circumstances where he found a bowl
Speaker 1: that he did not want to go after, but sent
Speaker 1: me after that bowl. And that guy, like, I will
Speaker 1: forever remain in debt, and not just because he let
Speaker 1: me go after the elk, because he just taught me
Speaker 1: so much and was so generous with his expertise from
Speaker 1: like a lifetime of hunting in New Mexico. But it,
Speaker 1: you know, it does stand out when people take the
Speaker 1: time to be generous with sharing those opportunities because every
Speaker 1: everybody's working hard to have that golden chance and all
Speaker 1: of us have a limited number of stocks to make
Speaker 1: and it's a beautiful gift to give somebody, like, you
Speaker 1: know what, you go for it. He was just adding
Speaker 1: to the piggy bang because now every giant boy you spot, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's like he knows how to game it out properly,
Speaker 1: you know, thinking long game. Okay, a guy let's say,
Speaker 1: let's just say, but there's a guy that lives in Georgia,
Speaker 1: and let's say that in Georgia, it is not permissible
Speaker 1: two hunt black bears using bait. It's not permissible to
Speaker 1: hunt black bears using hounds. He gets the notice in
Speaker 1: that man black bears. Sure, like for simmon trees, what
Speaker 1: would happen to a fella say that He goes and
Speaker 1: starts planting for simmon trees in the national Forest, knowing
Speaker 1: that he's playing it. He's thing, he's playing a ten
Speaker 1: year game here, and he wants to know morally, where
Speaker 1: am I and legally where am I? I don't know
Speaker 1: on legally, I think morally that's that's great. Like it's
Speaker 1: it's like it's such a I mean, it's just such
Speaker 1: a like long game and investment and kind of like
Speaker 1: I'm like please right, as though I had the ability
Speaker 1: to say yes or no, but in my mind like yeah,
Speaker 1: but where is he on the Where is this dude
Speaker 1: on the legal end? You just go do like random
Speaker 1: like civicultural activities on national forest land. Don't jump in here.
Speaker 1: That's why. That's why I might ask this, because he
Speaker 1: might because because he dabbles in the national force system
Speaker 1: a little bit, like can the dude? Can the dude
Speaker 1: do that? Like like I gotta plan a big berry
Speaker 1: patch and then start hitting it. No, no, no, the
Speaker 1: idea of like managing. He wanted to point out that
Speaker 1: it's not like I'm playing the l foul for something.
Speaker 1: He wanted to point out that this is a native right,
Speaker 1: I'm planning a native tree in its home range, which
Speaker 1: he felt was a very important thing to throw in.
Speaker 1: Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, I would not condone the
Speaker 1: activity from a legal perspective. I think you could liken
Speaker 1: it to any other manipulation of the national forest. Which
Speaker 1: when we talk about doing any kind of vegetation management,
Speaker 1: there is a public engagement process. People get to weigh in.
Speaker 1: I know, we're just talking about a few trees here,
Speaker 1: not likely to cause any big issues. But if you're
Speaker 1: gonna be out there like digging holes in the ground,
Speaker 1: you have to account for all the different values that
Speaker 1: could be on the landscape. I want to make sure
Speaker 1: you're not, for example, digging up an archaeological site. And
Speaker 1: if you're gonna be manipulating vegetating, and there's a process
Speaker 1: through which proposals like that would need to be vetted,
Speaker 1: and you could like it. You know, you could carry
Speaker 1: the logic fourth to a situation where somebody decides they
Speaker 1: want to plan a food plot on the National Forest.
Speaker 1: So you know, you could make the slippery slope argument.
Speaker 1: If you allow this, then maybe you should allow the
Speaker 1: next thing. Yeah, I got, I got the I'm a
Speaker 1: sucker for slippery slope arguments, man, because like I do believe,
Speaker 1: I do believe that the slope is slippery and in
Speaker 1: almost all things, you know, like I'm that, I'm always
Speaker 1: that's where my mind goes. I would plant a whole
Speaker 1: truckload of par simmons. So I made sure there's plenty
Speaker 1: of seeds germanate in a tree, and I just sit there,
Speaker 1: make sure not an atom. Well, I want to point
Speaker 1: out that this guy, this hypothetical person uses um. He
Speaker 1: has verbs. He's he's turned Johnny apple seed the noun
Speaker 1: into a verb where he's gonna he's gonna Johnny apple
Speaker 1: seed in area, which I like quite a bit. Okay,
Speaker 1: another one, and this you can like. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you want to share your I don't know if
Speaker 1: you're gonna want to share your story. But a guy,
Speaker 1: let's say a guy goes out hunting and he makes
Speaker 1: a hit on an anil, and he factors all the
Speaker 1: factors in and decides he's not gonna push it till tomorrow.
Speaker 1: He's gonna get up bright and squirrelly it's a cold
Speaker 1: night and get up bright and squirreling. Track it then,
Speaker 1: but he tracks it lo and behold it's been eaten
Speaker 1: by kyles. He's wondering, what now is my relationship to
Speaker 1: the antlers. He's like, would you keep the antlers? I would,
Speaker 1: but I would keep them as I would keep them
Speaker 1: exactly for what they were like. I wouldn't feel I
Speaker 1: don't think I would feel tempted to present them as
Speaker 1: something they weren't like. I would be like, they'd be
Speaker 1: sitting there where I keep that kind of stuff, and
Speaker 1: I would say that people see that, well here's what happened, right,
Speaker 1: I would like I would have them. They would be
Speaker 1: emblematic of not quite getting it or you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, they mean something, but they wouldn't mean would
Speaker 1: have meant had I gotten it totally? You follow me totally? Yeah? Man? Yeah,
Speaker 1: for me, it would be like, let's say I had
Speaker 1: found it. I mean, if you if to me, if
Speaker 1: you don't eat it, then it doesn't you can't. It's
Speaker 1: not a point of pride. That's where you draw the line.
Speaker 1: I mean, reasonable people can disagree. For me, it's gotta
Speaker 1: be shot in public land, it's gotta be um and
Speaker 1: it's and you gotta eat it. That I would I
Speaker 1: would look at that rack was sorrow. I would take
Speaker 1: it be more sorrow than but you would remove it
Speaker 1: from the woods. Oh yeah, would you not a tag? M? No, No,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I mean, like like like guys do that
Speaker 1: out of pentance, you know. But I just I don't know,
Speaker 1: like hunting seasonally comes once a year. You got anything
Speaker 1: I got? Yeah, I mean i've I've you're alluding to
Speaker 1: a story where I experienced something along these lines. Um
Speaker 1: had an archery pronghorn hunt on the HeLa in New Mexico.
Speaker 1: I'm not praying, I'm not bullying you. No, thanks for
Speaker 1: your concern. I've got my big boy britches on here.
Speaker 1: Um Archie pronghorn hunt in the HeLa phenomenal prong ring country,
Speaker 1: low down city, but some really nice box practiced all summer.
Speaker 1: Had an opportunity at a great buck. I won't belabor
Speaker 1: like the whole story of the stock and everything, but
Speaker 1: bow hunting for pronghorn is inherently challenging. Hit this buck.
Speaker 1: It looked like a good shot towards the end of
Speaker 1: the day, and the buck ran off. Gave it some time,
Speaker 1: and by the time I was going to go follow
Speaker 1: the track, it had gotten dark, and so I went
Speaker 1: in with a head lamp. And when I got to
Speaker 1: the area where I picked up the blood, trail only
Speaker 1: went maybe fourty or fifty yards, and then I just
Speaker 1: heard all hell break loose up ahead of me on
Speaker 1: the trail. Boves thunder and off, and so you know,
Speaker 1: Midwest white tail guy. I thought maybe I jumped the buck,
Speaker 1: and so I left and went back to my camp,
Speaker 1: and I said, all right, I'm gonna sit here till midnight,
Speaker 1: which was gonna be another four hours, and at midnight
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come back out here and resume tracking this buck.
Speaker 1: And came back at midnight, parked my truck to start
Speaker 1: hiking back into where the solid gone down, opened the door,
Speaker 1: and the instant I opened the door, I could hear
Speaker 1: the coyotes on the carcass just fighting and howling and
Speaker 1: yapping and making all kinds of ruckus. So I didn't
Speaker 1: even like go to try to pick up the blood trail,
Speaker 1: just walked towards the sound of this chaos. And the
Speaker 1: sound that I had heard earlier had to have been
Speaker 1: all the dos that had piled up where the buck
Speaker 1: had gone down, because he only went like seventy five
Speaker 1: yards where I've been hit. But by that point, basically
Speaker 1: the back half was gone, the neck was chewed up,
Speaker 1: the organs were all pulled out and eaten. So then
Speaker 1: I commenced this was even the next morning. Now this
Speaker 1: was that night. So I then commenced to salvaging what
Speaker 1: meat I could off that animal, which was half a
Speaker 1: backstrap on each side, UM, some neck meat, most of
Speaker 1: the shoulders, and this was a really like prong horn
Speaker 1: of a lifetime kind of animal. UM. And so I,
Speaker 1: you know, I took the head as well. And later
Speaker 1: on that season my wife ended up getting a really
Speaker 1: nice buck where I was able to take the cape
Speaker 1: to mount the horns of this buck that I had
Speaker 1: gotten with my bow right, and it has a different
Speaker 1: kind of feel to it than it would had I
Speaker 1: managed to salvage every ance of meat off that animal,
Speaker 1: you know, And it was your house, and the dude
Speaker 1: comes up and does as dudes do where they kind
Speaker 1: of come over and stare at it, and it invites
Speaker 1: you to say, like, oh, I tell him, I tell
Speaker 1: him the story. And so the mistake I made, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was a good shot. The mistake I made. You know,
Speaker 1: people talk about how easily prong horn go down. There's
Speaker 1: no mistake, I don't think, well in hindsight. Hindsight being um,
Speaker 1: I wish I would have just followed up because all
Speaker 1: the does ran off the buck was laying there. He
Speaker 1: would have been totally untouched at that point. But it's
Speaker 1: just a matter of a few hours. And the other
Speaker 1: thing that was interesting about that was as it was
Speaker 1: salvaging meat off that animal, the coyotes were still close
Speaker 1: enough yapping at each other that I could hear him
Speaker 1: yappen on either side of me, Like, and I'm sitting
Speaker 1: there trying to carve meat off. And you know, I've
Speaker 1: been around all kinds of wildlife, and I know coyotes
Speaker 1: are not like a big scary animal, but the you know,
Speaker 1: the hair on the back of my neck, just being
Speaker 1: out there in the dark with this carcass like carbon
Speaker 1: meat off with you because it's the object of their desire.
Speaker 1: There was definitely like this primal kind of vibe to it.
Speaker 1: But I would I would agree, Yes, I would. I
Speaker 1: would take the antlers or the horns with me. But
Speaker 1: they almost become, especially if you lose all the meat,
Speaker 1: they almost become like a token of sorrow and apology.
Speaker 1: At that point in my mind, but why do we
Speaker 1: keep these you know, the word trophies a really loaded word, right, Like,
Speaker 1: why do we why do we keep any of these mementos?
Speaker 1: It's about out the story. It's like, you know, somebody
Speaker 1: buying a rack at a thrift store for forty bucks.
Speaker 1: I just do not understand that. Like when you walk
Speaker 1: into a cracker barrel and you see the deer on
Speaker 1: the wall, right it's a hollow, No, then it means
Speaker 1: there's gotta be some connection. But if a buddy mine
Speaker 1: gave me something he found out in the woods, I
Speaker 1: might hang onto it. But if I would never buy
Speaker 1: something I would never like at a yard sale, buy
Speaker 1: something that someone found out in the woods with a
Speaker 1: guy kind of knew. Even if my buddy's buddy found
Speaker 1: something weird out in the woods, I might hang onto
Speaker 1: it because at least it felt like somehow there's a connection. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it could get to be kind of a loose connection.
Speaker 1: But recently a guy gave me a hunk of uh,
Speaker 1: a little chunk of a mammoth tusk. But I didn't
Speaker 1: know him and didn't even catch his name. And that
Speaker 1: hunk of mammoth tusk doesn't mean a fraction to me.
Speaker 1: What a mammoth tooth that was given to me by
Speaker 1: a buddy mine? Yeah, because I can look look at
Speaker 1: it and a right, it's you can't even put you
Speaker 1: you can't even really like put your finger on it.
Speaker 1: But there's some sort of there, there's like a there's
Speaker 1: simple rich things, wildlife relics. It doesn't have to be positive,
Speaker 1: is the point I'm making. Like most of the time
Speaker 1: we associate these things with positive, like almost unequivocally positive experiences.
Speaker 1: But I think there's no reason you couldn't have something
Speaker 1: that reminds you of a very significant, somber experience that
Speaker 1: you've had. And I don't think it makes it any
Speaker 1: any less significant. But it's a very different kind of
Speaker 1: a totem at that point. But it but it opens
Speaker 1: up like what happens when a dude goes into some
Speaker 1: little hunted acre enclosure, you know, and arrows some four
Speaker 1: bowl that he bought off a guy. Um, he's willable.
Speaker 1: Was that cracker barrel ball? I mean just like you know,
Speaker 1: like like I said, you just have some small inclosure.
Speaker 1: They raise him up with a bottle and eventually they
Speaker 1: let some guy go to pretend to hunt one. When
Speaker 1: he hangs it up, he knows, but he's just in
Speaker 1: it for the He's just in it for the perception,
Speaker 1: the false perception. People see it and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this has a rich symbolism that I know to be true,
Speaker 1: and that person is putting it forward as because he
Speaker 1: just wants to harness the adoration, but personally he knows.
Speaker 1: So there is like different ways that different people handle
Speaker 1: the question. He's like, yeah, I know, but you don't know.
Speaker 1: And that makes me feel good, you know. Do you
Speaker 1: think it really does? Though? Do you think that really
Speaker 1: makes it? Just said it didn't It wouldn't be something
Speaker 1: that happened. But Matt talked about have you you haven't
Speaker 1: taught about this with this before? When you had the
Speaker 1: bear steal your elk? Can you tell that story? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: A few years ago, I was hunting and uh by
Speaker 1: himself and I shot shot elk and um took it apart,
Speaker 1: and it was by the time I took it part,
Speaker 1: it was dark, and um, I had a couple of
Speaker 1: miles back to my camp and I just was out
Speaker 1: of steam, so I didn't try to get it in
Speaker 1: a tree or anything. And the next day I came
Speaker 1: up and tried to get up early in the morning
Speaker 1: try to get back up to it, and it had
Speaker 1: been a baird found it and buried about buried it all,
Speaker 1: destroyed about half of it and like an area both
Speaker 1: as big as the stage. It looked like a d
Speaker 1: N I and Cat had gone through it. I don't know.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of surplus digging that scene and
Speaker 1: going like it like he was doing an extra diggy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he sucked back the boneless, sucked back the bone
Speaker 1: was meet and buried the bone in. Yeah, yeah, pretty
Speaker 1: much like I got the back quarters off of it,
Speaker 1: and I can't remember and other other little bits and pieces.
Speaker 1: I figure I lost about half And remember saying you
Speaker 1: took it down to the river and wash it off
Speaker 1: and loaded on your line, and then I, you know,
Speaker 1: I take that And I was like that, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna um not take that and have it be my
Speaker 1: elk for the year. So when you look at that, uh,
Speaker 1: do you look at that like man, that was shitty luck?
Speaker 1: Do you look at it like lesson learned? I got
Speaker 1: lazy now? Um yeah, I would never leave an elk
Speaker 1: on the ground in that in grizzly country again overnight
Speaker 1: I sold it. Yeah, that was very just a very
Speaker 1: practical lesson. I drive. I didn't like beat myself up
Speaker 1: about it too much. But and you hung the antlers.
Speaker 1: It was a cow, so you need you don't need
Speaker 1: you need to wrestle with that one though. Just keep
Speaker 1: the ivories. I did keep the ivories, so I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you about ivories. Are you cool on that? Uh?
Speaker 1: Get more Dad. You know, I lost the very first
Speaker 1: elk I ever shot at law To. He killed him
Speaker 1: and couldn't find him, and they found him like two
Speaker 1: weeks later with the bear on top of it, and
Speaker 1: there's no salvaging whatsoever. And I got the antlers and
Speaker 1: I was, I don't know, nineteen or twenty. I was.
Speaker 1: I was really even too young to wrestle with it.
Speaker 1: But looking back on it now, it's funny because if
Speaker 1: we've had this conversation, I haven't thought about it prior
Speaker 1: to to right now. But um, I remember taking pictures
Speaker 1: of like we actually went into the woods and I
Speaker 1: had some buddies taking pictures, you know, of the antlers
Speaker 1: with me. I did it. I did that, but I
Speaker 1: remember having like now looking back on it, I wasn't. Um.
Speaker 1: It definitely was just different. Like I didn't have the
Speaker 1: excitement that I you know, later did when I went
Speaker 1: out and killed my first elk and I watched him
Speaker 1: fall over dead. You know. Yeah, Uh, show everybody your
Speaker 1: wedding ring, Matt, It's a genuine, a genuine elk ivory ring.
Speaker 1: M Um. Do you feel that, like, what is that? Like?
Speaker 1: Why that right for a wedding ring? It just seemed
Speaker 1: like the default. Like my wife and I his first
Speaker 1: date was it was elk hunting and she was with
Speaker 1: me and helped me pack this alcohol. It was like
Speaker 1: it was I didn't even ever really consider a different thing.
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, they say that those the ivories, uh
Speaker 1: our vestigial right, yeah, vestigial tusks. Elk had six to
Speaker 1: eight inches six to eight inch tusk. Yep, it's hard
Speaker 1: to picture. Well, it's not that hard to picture when
Speaker 1: you think about other deer of the world. You got
Speaker 1: miniature versions elsewhere on the global landscape. To have a
Speaker 1: toss for fighting or fighting, yep. Yeah. Typically the males
Speaker 1: will be significantly larger than the females us so it's
Speaker 1: got antlers and in a wild hog tusk not necessarily
Speaker 1: even antlers. So for example, in China, in the area
Speaker 1: where I did some of my asiatic BlackBerry research, they
Speaker 1: have a little diminutive deer that they called the munt
Speaker 1: jack or the barking deer. Yeah, I've seen that. And
Speaker 1: they've got they've got tusks, um, and and they vocalize.
Speaker 1: I mean, being a midwe you know, a Michigan kid
Speaker 1: in China for the first time where you have just
Speaker 1: like seven different ungulates running around on the landscape blows
Speaker 1: your mind. You see a little deer the size of
Speaker 1: a small dog jump on a log and start barking
Speaker 1: at you. Just what is this place? But yeah, they've
Speaker 1: got they've got fangs. Um. Chinese water deer have fangs.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like the the antlers on elk have
Speaker 1: gotten bigger, the tusks have gotten smaller. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: would have been for for fighting. And there's some behavior
Speaker 1: when when bulls are in their aggressive mode, not just
Speaker 1: when they're bugling, but when they're posturing, they'll do this
Speaker 1: thing maybe you guys have seen it, where they'll they'll
Speaker 1: like lift there, lift their lips and show their their
Speaker 1: whistlers a little bit, or show their ivories. Yeah, they'll
Speaker 1: do that kind of posturing still, so it's like a
Speaker 1: behavioral relic from back in the day when they'd be
Speaker 1: showing each other their tusks. The thing I wonder about
Speaker 1: elk ivories is this is liking ivories learned or would
Speaker 1: people independently arrive at the fact that elk ivories were cool?
Speaker 1: Oh man, it's guy. It's like a thing in the
Speaker 1: top of the elk's malt that's made out of actual ivory.
Speaker 1: It seems like people independently arrive at It's not like
Speaker 1: elk hunters of this era who are thinking it's cool.
Speaker 1: And it's something that's been cool for a real long time.
Speaker 1: People have always recognized it as cool. Right, But you
Speaker 1: can still see where you maybe your hypothesis would be
Speaker 1: correct with It's like a legacy of liking at the
Speaker 1: that was just never disconnected, it's all. But it seems
Speaker 1: like they would you'd independently arrive at that think thinking
Speaker 1: that was pretty cool. Do you guys think that, uh
Speaker 1: the a vegan you can drink breast milk. That was
Speaker 1: a terrible second. I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: you a zero one to ten scale. Speaking. I feel
Speaker 1: like I do some polished segues now and then, and
Speaker 1: I just have the energy shot we expect more, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because like I just I just I don't know. Speaking
Speaker 1: of vestigial tusks, I want to bring it up because
Speaker 1: a guy uh wrote in who who works with a
Speaker 1: vegan and knows that they breastfeed their kid and doesn't
Speaker 1: want to ask them? But like, isn't that not like
Speaker 1: if the thing? If the definition right? What is the
Speaker 1: definition of a vegan? Alright? The definition of a vegan
Speaker 1: is someone who does not consume or use and I
Speaker 1: consume I mean ingest or otherwise use an animal product.
Speaker 1: Without getting into the the house of wise, yeah, just
Speaker 1: do you or do you not? It's not a question
Speaker 1: of like your your ethics. It's a simple do you
Speaker 1: or do you not consumer otherwise use animal products? It
Speaker 1: seems like there's no way that that person is a vegan,
Speaker 1: because what he's pointing out is if everyone starts out
Speaker 1: like if you if you are vegan, and you're like,
Speaker 1: you don't use honey because of the subjugation of bees.
Speaker 1: You don't like, you don't use milk because of the
Speaker 1: subjugation of cows. But you grow up drinking breast milk
Speaker 1: from your mother? Could you? You know? I'll point out
Speaker 1: just as a side note, I thought that like I've
Speaker 1: like at times I've had these like thresholds I wouldn't
Speaker 1: caught cross in terms of like what I've eaten. But
Speaker 1: then I was like served a domestic dog in Vietnam,
Speaker 1: I was served a monkey in South America. So I like,
Speaker 1: keep passing up the things I won't do. And the
Speaker 1: only frontier left right is the unmentionable eating a vegan. No,
Speaker 1: Like it's like the only one left is the one.
Speaker 1: And then when we started having kids, I had this idea,
Speaker 1: like you could there's like a sanctionable form of cannibalism.
Speaker 1: Would be the placenta, which people have? You had some?
Speaker 1: We had the We sent ours away somewhere, then we
Speaker 1: got back. Basically I would have done that myself. No,
Speaker 1: they came back in pilform. I got a question, though,
Speaker 1: So you shipped off a placenta in the mail and
Speaker 1: sixty eight weeks goes by, and here's the pill. Can
Speaker 1: I ask a question? Alright? A thousand questions? All right?
Speaker 1: So when I started deer hunting, I didn't have anybody
Speaker 1: to teach me how to butcher. Is this a real
Speaker 1: bad sege? I didn't have everybody teach me how to
Speaker 1: how to butch your deer. But I cared for the
Speaker 1: meat well and took it to a processor. And when
Speaker 1: I got it back. Some of the meat it seemed
Speaker 1: pretty good. Other packages of meat seemed less. So where
Speaker 1: this is going? So that was one of the motivations
Speaker 1: for me to learn how to butcher my own dear,
Speaker 1: because I was concerned that if I sent my venis
Speaker 1: into a processor, how would I know I was getting
Speaker 1: my dear back, let alone deer back. Some pro you know,
Speaker 1: I'll point out some prod sessors are even open about
Speaker 1: the fact that they do come, but they badge it.
Speaker 1: They badge, they badge your grind to check this out, like, like,
Speaker 1: do you have any worry that it wasn't your Like
Speaker 1: there's some like some lady in Kansas, you know, and
Speaker 1: you're like eating her placenta. So but I don't understand
Speaker 1: why why did you want it in a pill form? Anyway,
Speaker 1: they the reason that they do it is the supposed
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be adding some sort of nuchans. It's
Speaker 1: it's for the mother, right, because she's lost a lot
Speaker 1: of blood she's lost through this whole process and and
Speaker 1: re ingesting. It is supposed to help her out, right,
Speaker 1: because in some in some cultures, you just like in
Speaker 1: some cultures where there's you know, I imagine like lower
Speaker 1: quality food resources, it's pretty common to boil it needed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well in Great Britain it was a fat for us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's not the necessity one that throw it back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So just because it was there, I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: have a couple see if I feel any different in
Speaker 1: the morning. Did you feel like cannibally Did you feel
Speaker 1: like a little bit cannibalish? No? Not, never crossed my mind. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I've talked a lot before. I liked to think
Speaker 1: of myself as the kind of guy that would drink
Speaker 1: breast milk. And I bragged about how I was gonna
Speaker 1: and that was what I was gonna do. But I
Speaker 1: couldn't chicken out. But you're honest, you would like before
Speaker 1: I ever met you. Yeah, yeah, you would lighten your
Speaker 1: coffee with the stuff I did that. I don't know, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna defend myself. I'm not gonna brag either,
Speaker 1: but yeah, if because I was at home with Ena
Speaker 1: for about nine months or so, and so Jennifer and
Speaker 1: you finally want to tell all the details. But like,
Speaker 1: if everybody knows that moms that are working and breastfeeding,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of pumping that goes on. So I
Speaker 1: was at home falling out. Yeah, it sounds just like
Speaker 1: your turkey drumming, does know a turkey spits and drones
Speaker 1: like this and the breast pump goes So I valued
Speaker 1: the work that she was doing. So i'd me thawing
Speaker 1: out bags, warming them up. Yeah, yah, YadA. Well sometimes
Speaker 1: the kid, you know, you can only reheat it so
Speaker 1: many times, and it's been so long, I can't remember
Speaker 1: that the rules of you know, dealing with breast milk.
Speaker 1: But at a certain point there's two ounces left and
Speaker 1: the kid's not gonna drink it half. No, I had
Speaker 1: half and half the kid, the kids to sleep, and
Speaker 1: you can't put it in the fridge again. You can't
Speaker 1: warm it up again, And so I'd say, God, what
Speaker 1: a waste. I love it. It's like the fact that
Speaker 1: I couldn't do it is a burden to me. It's
Speaker 1: very sweet. It tastes like sugar laden milk. But to
Speaker 1: return back this the question about granted, in all fairness,
Speaker 1: if I was gonna ask like questions like like understanding
Speaker 1: vegan questions, I should probably have, you know, take the
Speaker 1: time to go ask someone who is right. This is
Speaker 1: like not accurate, but it's not the best way to
Speaker 1: go about this. But it does bring up this thing
Speaker 1: because I remember going to I remember going to a
Speaker 1: Jewish scholar and asking about the Old Testament dietary law.
Speaker 1: And in the Old Testament you would be like, it's say, um,
Speaker 1: you know the stuff like only things with only things
Speaker 1: with the cloven hoof, and we look now and like
Speaker 1: in the prohibition not eating pork, for instance, okay, in
Speaker 1: the Old Testament, like don't eat pork, and we look
Speaker 1: were like, oh, yeah, well, the reason they said don't
Speaker 1: eat pork is because trick gnosis and other kinds of diseases.
Speaker 1: So that's why that's in there. Like I know, that's
Speaker 1: why that's in there. But you go asking a scholar,
Speaker 1: and it was a believer in a scholar would say,
Speaker 1: you don't know why God said that. It's not for
Speaker 1: you to understand why he said it. He said it,
Speaker 1: and that's the rule, and don't try to like guess
Speaker 1: what the motivations were and then determined and now the
Speaker 1: motivations aren't valid anymore. I no, Right, So with the
Speaker 1: vegan thing, you look at me like it's because you
Speaker 1: don't want to like I said, be mean too bees,
Speaker 1: so you don't eat honey. But let's say all the
Speaker 1: bees just for some weird reason, there's a colony of
Speaker 1: bees with honey, and for some ree the reason to
Speaker 1: all the beaches fall over dead. So no one's being
Speaker 1: mean to the bee by taking the honey, but you
Speaker 1: still wouldn't want to take the honey to stay true
Speaker 1: to your conviction. I'm guessing like no one's subjugating the
Speaker 1: be at that point. So in that way, I feel like,
Speaker 1: if that's what it is and that's true, then you
Speaker 1: can't drink breast milk. This is not a major question.
Speaker 1: This is not like a problem bloom. It's just something
Speaker 1: I wonder about all the time. I mean, along the
Speaker 1: same lines, you could ask, well, can a vegan eat
Speaker 1: road kill? If an animal just died hasn't been subjugated,
Speaker 1: it's dead, it's meat laying there. I would guess not
Speaker 1: the animal product, just like, well there's milk. Uh. You
Speaker 1: want to see a segue? Yes, where are you guys
Speaker 1: on on like road kill? Right now? Wow? Did we
Speaker 1: just change topics? I can't even really tell. Yeah, are
Speaker 1: you still on it? Like? Do you go out of
Speaker 1: your way? Like I mean because we used to go right.
Speaker 1: We'd go out of our way to get it right. Um. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I still once in a while we'll pick something off
Speaker 1: a pheasant or like that if I know what's fresh. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not not. I don't know why, but not to the
Speaker 1: Maybe I a little higher in the hog now. It's
Speaker 1: like we live in the land a plenty and you
Speaker 1: have like a full freezer. Yeah, but I'm definitely not
Speaker 1: opposed to picking up some road kill. Yeah. Do you
Speaker 1: got like, do you ever feed your family road kill stuff?
Speaker 1: We tried once with an elf that was smashed up.
Speaker 1: I believe my it's like a garbage truck that runs
Speaker 1: through a whole herd. And uh. But my good old
Speaker 1: ice seventy there in Colorado and my buddy Jimmy went
Speaker 1: through the whole process and just pulled over and waited
Speaker 1: and you know, they lifted into his truck and I
Speaker 1: went and helped him butcher. But the whole thing was
Speaker 1: just purple and smashed and it we ended up just
Speaker 1: feeding it to Otis the dog. Yeah, so we tried,
Speaker 1: but no, but like I think, like, yeah, somehow you
Speaker 1: mentioning pheasant. I would think that if I came across
Speaker 1: a turkey, and I didn't have to punch my tag,
Speaker 1: and I was able to quickly look at it and said, oh,
Speaker 1: there's two good breasts and two good dies. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: why not. But I'm not picking up badgers and raccoons
Speaker 1: and squirrel I'd probably passed. I remember driving back from
Speaker 1: Hunt one time, and this is in northern Montana where
Speaker 1: they have the Intercontinental Ballistic Missile System, the Minute Man
Speaker 1: two projects, you know, strewn across the northern Great Plains,
Speaker 1: and they're always like the missile silos are always off
Speaker 1: the road quite a rays. Remember pass them one of
Speaker 1: those missile silos the entrance and seeing a brand speaking
Speaker 1: the new Army jacket falling out of a guy's truck
Speaker 1: and pick that up, and I'm like, score, because that
Speaker 1: was back in the days and stuff like that was like,
Speaker 1: you know, you were loving right to have found a
Speaker 1: twenty dollar jacket or whatever army surplus coat. This wasn't
Speaker 1: even surplus. Yeah, it was like a dude's jacket. And
Speaker 1: just pulled out of there and got going again, feeling
Speaker 1: like luckiest guy in the world. I remember a pheasant,
Speaker 1: as they do, ran out and stopped in the road,
Speaker 1: and you think, like, how could you get a road
Speaker 1: kill feasant because it be destroyed. But I remember he
Speaker 1: was just the right height, where like hitting him was
Speaker 1: kind of like what are you was graveyard dead? Graveyard dead,
Speaker 1: but just like nothing happened to it, and perfect and
Speaker 1: I might have talked at this four, but when we
Speaker 1: were little kids, you probably remember, we're coming back from
Speaker 1: tracking a deer. You know what I'm talking about. We
Speaker 1: have been out all night tracking a deer. The old
Speaker 1: man hit with his boat and we're coming back at
Speaker 1: two in the morning and bam, and I was sleeping
Speaker 1: in the front and hits a deer. So he gets out,
Speaker 1: You and Daniel in the back seat. I'm in the
Speaker 1: front seat. He gets out and it was it was
Speaker 1: a V nine Jeep Grand Cherokee with and I believe
Speaker 1: it was had the It wasn't Daddy Bauer design, but
Speaker 1: that was late that was the mini minivan, so I
Speaker 1: remember the inside of that thing. But he threw it
Speaker 1: in the back and starts going down the road, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Man Danny are screaming bloody murder
Speaker 1: because the deer is up in the back of the car,
Speaker 1: standing in the back of the in the vehicle. I'm
Speaker 1: here the old man slaying out the brakes and drug
Speaker 1: the deer back out of the car, killed the knife,
Speaker 1: loaded back up, and we were back on our I remember.
Speaker 1: I also remember one time hunting with you and we
Speaker 1: found a road kill pheasant and we went to clean
Speaker 1: it and had nine lives cat food and its crawl.
Speaker 1: I do remember that too. That's a bold pheasant. Man
Speaker 1: rotting around on the cat. I don't even thought of that.
Speaker 1: And I remember you stuffed that pheasant with grapes and
Speaker 1: then stuffed that in the turkey. That yeah, I do
Speaker 1: remember finding cat. But yeah, it is a bold pheasant.
Speaker 1: He's like you see that cat to his buddies watching
Speaker 1: He's off looking for me. Watch what I do? Okay. So,
Speaker 1: like road killing the obvious questions that brings up around
Speaker 1: perceptions of food and food safety, here's an interesting thing
Speaker 1: that don't wanna talk about. That. They work on mine remediation,
Speaker 1: so MIND clean up, and they work at a mining
Speaker 1: site where the reason they're there is because of soil
Speaker 1: contamped heavy metal soil contamination. And they go there and
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of morrel's growing in the MIND site
Speaker 1: and she was saying, like, you know, I picked the
Speaker 1: Morrel's and eat them, and I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people would stumble across and just be like sweet Morrel's
Speaker 1: and pick them all and eat them. But she's like,
Speaker 1: but I know about the contamination, but I eat them anyway.
Speaker 1: And she brings up this idea like, do you ever
Speaker 1: get where you just kind of like you ever give me?
Speaker 1: You feel like you just know too much about your food,
Speaker 1: Like people want to know more, like they want to
Speaker 1: be closer to food and know more about it. But
Speaker 1: she just wanted to do you ever get where you
Speaker 1: feel like just all the detailed just becomes difficult. And
Speaker 1: the thing I think about, like when you're eating halibit meat, Okay,
Speaker 1: when you're eating halibit. When I'm looking at my wife's plate,
Speaker 1: I see the six seven inch long tape worms that
Speaker 1: it's in every like everyone who's eating halibut is eating them.
Speaker 1: I see them, but I don't ever say, Katie, know
Speaker 1: what that is. And when you're eating bluegill flays and
Speaker 1: all you're looking at the bluegeflate, it's got those little
Speaker 1: black specks. When you pop that blue crystal crystal, it's
Speaker 1: a little parasite, So you pop that thing in your
Speaker 1: mouth and you're eating hundreds of parasites, which is another
Speaker 1: thing I don't point out to people. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I know I'm awared at but do you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, there's some people who want to know
Speaker 1: more and more in everything, and some people who are
Speaker 1: just want to know, Like I just don't need all
Speaker 1: the detail, right right, Yeah, I would. I'd always want
Speaker 1: to know, But what's that I'd always want to know.
Speaker 1: But like you, there are certain things that I know
Speaker 1: I could ruin somebody's dinner if I told him. So.
Speaker 1: I don't know about eating mushrooms as the mind, so
Speaker 1: like couldn't you get like our snick poisoning or something that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you feel like in that case you'd want to know.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but maybe now I don't know what
Speaker 1: about all the worms and all the worms in halib it,
Speaker 1: Like you're cognizant of the fact that it's all these
Speaker 1: worms in halib it. It doesn't bother me at all. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: this is pertinent because of another like point of discussion
Speaker 1: that I think is valuable to have. It is a
Speaker 1: guy observed He's like, I don't want to know if
Speaker 1: I was eating placenta. So you're like, what are these pills? Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting because because there's a there's a guy I
Speaker 1: communicate with, and he has a little bit of an
Speaker 1: axe to grind on. The thing that he thinks that
Speaker 1: hunters are becoming guilty of is like hunters are aware
Speaker 1: of sort of the the national conversation that we're we're
Speaker 1: having around food right and and food awareness and understand
Speaker 1: the ramifications of your choices on the global scale about
Speaker 1: how you eat and what the effects of how you
Speaker 1: eat are right, and what's the economy that you're participating in,
Speaker 1: and that when you know, like we kind of are
Speaker 1: tuned into that. And he feels that like a lot
Speaker 1: of guys are now who a few years ago even
Speaker 1: weren't expousing all the virtues of wild game, but they're
Speaker 1: now because they know that it sells well to the public.
Speaker 1: That he's finding a little bit annoying to people like, oh,
Speaker 1: and it's organic and that's really all I care about,
Speaker 1: and it's free range and humanely harvested. And he feels
Speaker 1: like it's gotten a little empty where it's just like
Speaker 1: this sort of masturbatory activity of doing all this, and
Speaker 1: he's wandering like is it really honestly, like, is it
Speaker 1: actually healthier? And the first question I want to ask
Speaker 1: around that is can you even say that it's organic?
Speaker 1: It's not certified organic, non certified organic, not not. It
Speaker 1: is not right. If you're hunting white tailed deer in
Speaker 1: the Midwest, is it organic meat? Is organic? Right? I
Speaker 1: mean even let's get okay, there is a certification process,
Speaker 1: but like, let's forget the certification process. What I'm saying,
Speaker 1: it's not It wouldn't be eligible for certification the most
Speaker 1: it's hard to grow at anchor corn in the Midwest
Speaker 1: without a herbicide, but not all the Midwest is the same.
Speaker 1: Are we talking like the northern tier, We're talking in
Speaker 1: our agricultural landscape. You're gonna have a lot of food
Speaker 1: available to those deer that is non organic feed, and
Speaker 1: if you fed it to a beat a beef cow,
Speaker 1: that would not be eligible from eligibility. So even a
Speaker 1: wild turkey at dougs certainly not organic but free range.
Speaker 1: But always have that backing up a little bit. Do
Speaker 1: you do you think I'm just curious what you think.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's disingenuous, or do you think that
Speaker 1: there's been some kind of there's like a change in
Speaker 1: the air and people are starting to take the food
Speaker 1: component of hunting more seriously. I think that both things
Speaker 1: are happening. Depends. I think there's a out of genuine
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of cynical. I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of um just like people looking for
Speaker 1: the crutch. And like the guy that that I communicate
Speaker 1: with was raising this question, He's like, I just feel
Speaker 1: better eating it, Like I like to go out and
Speaker 1: hunt my friends, and I feel good securing my own meat.
Speaker 1: And that's what I choose. And if you told me
Speaker 1: it was somehow like a little bit more dangerous than
Speaker 1: other stuff and not quite as safe of the other stuff,
Speaker 1: Like that's just how I feel best, Like that's what
Speaker 1: I like to eat, and I'm satisfied, just feeling that.
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I need to take some other
Speaker 1: language and some other ideas is sort of like conformant,
Speaker 1: so that my choices reflect some contemporary understanding of what's
Speaker 1: right and what's wrong. Because I even at times they
Speaker 1: talked about even the question of humanely raised, I don't
Speaker 1: know like then you're sort of saying, like, is growing
Speaker 1: is growing up? Is an animal that lives out on
Speaker 1: the natural landscape? Is that a humane environment? Getting gnawed
Speaker 1: on by coyotes? Like living under the constant stress of predation,
Speaker 1: watching your offspring routinely slaughtered. That if you're a turkey
Speaker 1: and you lay batches of eggs twelve at a time,
Speaker 1: and you're lucky if you can do that three years
Speaker 1: and have one of those grow up to an adult,
Speaker 1: So you've lost thirty five young in the course of
Speaker 1: your Is that Is that? So I'm like humanely raised? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. If I if I had to guess,
Speaker 1: I'd guess it's it would be more I'd rather have
Speaker 1: that fate because you see animals play and jog around
Speaker 1: and chase each other, like especially a lot of conventional
Speaker 1: farm situations, those those animals display like behaviors that are neurotic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm Devil's advocating a little bit because
Speaker 1: I do still even considering all that, I still view
Speaker 1: it because you can't help but view it. Like if
Speaker 1: I was in the if I was in one of
Speaker 1: those situations, which would I pick? I'd be like, I'll
Speaker 1: pick the that right, they out offended for myself. But
Speaker 1: then there's the other question like, uh, is it humanely harvested,
Speaker 1: which is another one I've thrown that out there, But
Speaker 1: then you look and I'm like, sometimes sometimes amazingly so, right, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would I would probably argue that on balance that
Speaker 1: FIM animals are more humanely harvest they're more humanely slaughtered
Speaker 1: because you have, they gotta they got a pretty systematized
Speaker 1: you no like that that uh that air gun that
Speaker 1: dude uses in your country, and the way they have
Speaker 1: things now where like animals used to animals going through
Speaker 1: the slaughter process that you us to be that they
Speaker 1: were aware of what's ahead of them, but now they're
Speaker 1: in a lot of blind turn passages, so you're not
Speaker 1: aware of who what's going on, come around the corner
Speaker 1: and flat, yeah, you're not like watching like you know,
Speaker 1: Bob out ahead of you, right, and uh they you
Speaker 1: know never did like that old bob. Yeah, they like
Speaker 1: they've eliminated that. And sometimes sure you could be out
Speaker 1: and the thing like here's an animal that you're gonna
Speaker 1: harvest or killing. It's oblivious to your presence and there's
Speaker 1: not even a second that it has the register what's
Speaker 1: going on. But earlier we talked about situations that aren't
Speaker 1: that way. Oh man, in hunting, I mean we all
Speaker 1: know it's like not that clean. I mean sometimes it is,
Speaker 1: but sometimes it's not. Yeah, So I just want to
Speaker 1: feel like a little bit like, um, I just feel
Speaker 1: that like honesty is good, and I think that to
Speaker 1: go in and just sort of borrow, like put your
Speaker 1: finger to the to the breeze, pre empt, pre empt
Speaker 1: the language of of like, yeah, people that are trying
Speaker 1: to do agriculture better and like and one day you'd
Speaker 1: be like, well, I used to hunt because I thought
Speaker 1: if there weren't, there'd be too many whatever that means.
Speaker 1: Um No, I'm switching. I'm switching to organic right because
Speaker 1: you just are dying too. And I feel like it's
Speaker 1: like a thing that people feel like I really want
Speaker 1: to tell people about this thing and I want them
Speaker 1: to get it. So what do they what do they
Speaker 1: want to hear? Again, I think some of that goes out.
Speaker 1: You know, you look like you're not satisfied. Girl, No,
Speaker 1: you're making a good point. I'm running through all the
Speaker 1: words that get thrown around, and I guess there's just
Speaker 1: so much potential for diversity in the answer based on
Speaker 1: what exactly played out. You know, in some instances, as
Speaker 1: Matt pointed out, humanely slaughtered would would apply. In some cases,
Speaker 1: some pseudo organic label would apply in some circumstances. Local
Speaker 1: as another word, you know, people like to throw around,
Speaker 1: and certainly that applies sometimes. But then you've got you know,
Speaker 1: like my first elk I shot in Idaho on a
Speaker 1: trip from Wisconsin, So think about the fossil fuel implications
Speaker 1: of a transcontinental road trip killing elk and drive it
Speaker 1: back home. So I agree wholeheartedly with this, you know,
Speaker 1: this caution around trying to borrow the language, um, and
Speaker 1: also the point about the value of honesty um. But
Speaker 1: I think there is very much a growing realization among
Speaker 1: a large segment of our non hunting public that there's
Speaker 1: this opportunity to have more of a connection where your
Speaker 1: food is coming from. And maybe that's maybe that's the
Speaker 1: it's it's it's that is that is a powerful connection. Yes,
Speaker 1: And maybe that's the words what's nazzy terms you're able
Speaker 1: to borrow from whole foods. That's a powerful connection. This
Speaker 1: is this is food that I have a connection to,
Speaker 1: and that probably is like unequivocal, you have some connection
Speaker 1: to that food. That's why I was gonna bring up
Speaker 1: like in looking at it, Um, it's a great point.
Speaker 1: You fly from Montana at the Dougs Place saying, and
Speaker 1: it's not local, it's at Dougs Place, so it's non organic.
Speaker 1: You had to shoot twice, so it wasn't humane. But
Speaker 1: you know, I'd be like, but you know what, man,
Speaker 1: I like being around wild animals, and I went out
Speaker 1: there and figured out how to do it, and I
Speaker 1: got it done, and now I got to eat it.
Speaker 1: And not only that, but my the the system that
Speaker 1: we've built in this society that allows these things to
Speaker 1: occur is actually beneficial to the resource. Um. So I'm
Speaker 1: feeling pretty good about the steak. It's another word that
Speaker 1: I think generally would apply when we're talking about consuming
Speaker 1: wildlife in North America through legal channels, would be sustainable.
Speaker 1: So connected to sustainable source of food, I think those
Speaker 1: would apply across the board, because there's no regulated hunting
Speaker 1: that we're doing here on this continent that wouldn't fit
Speaker 1: the ladder of those two categories. So I want to
Speaker 1: ask if to the best your ability, and you already
Speaker 1: did like to the best your ability, Like why is it? Like,
Speaker 1: why is it the diet you prefer? Is it because
Speaker 1: it enables you to engage in the activity, Like like
Speaker 1: what is it? Because it lets you do the activities
Speaker 1: you like and you're not gonna waste it? Yeah, um
Speaker 1: at all. It's just like we've done it since we
Speaker 1: were kids. And even when we were little kids, it
Speaker 1: was this just this giddy feeling of getting something by
Speaker 1: your own wits and having it be your food. Remember
Speaker 1: we were little kids, Like we had this idea that
Speaker 1: we were gonna have a dinner where everything either came
Speaker 1: from the garden or or it was something that we caught.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. I don't know how that
Speaker 1: came to beat it that we prioritize that, but that
Speaker 1: that that's certainly a component of it. Is just like
Speaker 1: feeling that you did it, you got your food yourself,
Speaker 1: and yeah, and it felt as good and as fun
Speaker 1: then before anybody started dabbling in the justification, right, And
Speaker 1: and it's not just about hunting, because going out and
Speaker 1: get some morrels, that's that triggers the same impulse to
Speaker 1: mel asparagus, garden plant. It's like the wild it's like
Speaker 1: a wild hog. That's the wild hog of vegetables. Like
Speaker 1: if someone said to me, like asparagus out of my garden,
Speaker 1: or you can sick pick some of the ship that
Speaker 1: came up and the drainage ditch, I'd be like, in
Speaker 1: your drain is that's amazing. It tastes so good. It's
Speaker 1: so much better than the stuff in your garden. Pet.
Speaker 1: Your p doesn't even stink with it. Yeah, what is
Speaker 1: the un Do you know you ever thought about it?
Speaker 1: I thought about it about I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um. Yeah, I mean we've been doing
Speaker 1: it for so long because I got into it really
Speaker 1: because I became a hunting guy, and then I sort
Speaker 1: of got into eating wild game because we did, like
Speaker 1: we ate some of it growing up, Like, but there
Speaker 1: was only a few deer around so between the family.
Speaker 1: I think it disappeared pretty quickly. But it wasn't as
Speaker 1: celebrated in my house growing up as it was for
Speaker 1: you guys. I don't think. It wasn't like a big deal.
Speaker 1: We didn't sit around eating burgers talking about where that
Speaker 1: deer came from or how it got shot or whatever.
Speaker 1: It just didn't happen, and it might have been other
Speaker 1: circumstances why we didn't have those conversations. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: so I was found myself just like all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I was an elk hunting guide and then I had
Speaker 1: elk and next thing you know, we're like eating a
Speaker 1: bunch of elk and it just naturally happened. So that's
Speaker 1: where I am now. Um, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: really chose to end up there, just you know, life
Speaker 1: took me there, and I might it might take me
Speaker 1: away from there. It might come a time when I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not always eating wild game wild game. That's
Speaker 1: imagine it is. But I'm just saying you are, like
Speaker 1: you're just too decrepit to go. I was talking Dar
Speaker 1: about it today about how we both of us used
Speaker 1: to just like all we thought about was catching trout
Speaker 1: on flies. For a good decade in my life, that
Speaker 1: was like on my mind every day. Now I go
Speaker 1: of months, maybe even a year, without thinking about doing that.
Speaker 1: Maybe that will happen with killing an eating while game.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I bet it's only catch a trou anymore,
Speaker 1: not as much something faded him. I mean, I'm imagine
Speaker 1: a person that eats game me on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: like we all do. It's not like if you're there
Speaker 1: by yourself, like I live alone, or like with your family.
Speaker 1: Is probably not like a nightly thing where you go, gee, Gali,
Speaker 1: isn't it great to be eating wild game? Where it
Speaker 1: really comes into play is when you have people over
Speaker 1: that don't eat it a lot. That's when it's exciting.
Speaker 1: But I feel guilty to not eat it. Oh I
Speaker 1: never don't you know, even to have like like if
Speaker 1: I if I come home and my wife doesn't like
Speaker 1: to cook and it, she'll oftentimes make the kids. Like
Speaker 1: for her, it's like the easiest thing is to make breakfast,
Speaker 1: so she'll sell it like a big exciting thing. We're
Speaker 1: like they're like, oh my gosh, it's amazing breakfast for dinner. Right,
Speaker 1: it's just like fried eggs and make toast, and I'll
Speaker 1: go home and get a little bit of a guilty feeling, right, Like,
Speaker 1: that's not how it is. That's not what I want
Speaker 1: their experiences to be because like they like, it's important
Speaker 1: for me. It's important to me. The companies important me.
Speaker 1: It's important to me that they see me making them
Speaker 1: dinner because there's like a little bit of a like
Speaker 1: a kind of that kind of like like something I
Speaker 1: recognize it sort of a sack, like like a sacrament whatever.
Speaker 1: Like no matter how busy whatever, it's like important to
Speaker 1: like that this person takes the time to like serve
Speaker 1: me something. So it's important they see that. And it's
Speaker 1: equally important because it's like here's where this stuff came from.
Speaker 1: This is the situation, like we did this, and now
Speaker 1: this is what we eat because it winds up. It
Speaker 1: just feels like this that you're you're taking something as
Speaker 1: mundane but making it like rich and instructional. So in
Speaker 1: missing out on that, I get like a guilty conscience.
Speaker 1: The same way when we were kids, I would get
Speaker 1: a guilty feeling if I didn't go hunting with that
Speaker 1: that I would wake up and hope to see that
Speaker 1: those two windy and rainy. Oh, and then I'd feel
Speaker 1: bad about hoping that it was too windy and rainy
Speaker 1: to go sit in a tree in the woods. And
Speaker 1: I feel like, like I've said before, I think it's
Speaker 1: like how some people feel about church, Like you feel
Speaker 1: guilty if you didn't go. I just remember feeling like
Speaker 1: guilty to let the old man down. So like, so
Speaker 1: much of my life is influenced by like, by feelings
Speaker 1: of guilt that are difficult to explain to other people.
Speaker 1: Maybe I just don't have the normal problems that people
Speaker 1: get guilty about anymore. Like I've just got done doing
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and now I feel guilty about
Speaker 1: random weird ship like my kids eating eggs at supper time.
Speaker 1: Anymore to add for me? There go to the Carl.
Speaker 1: So one of the one of the key determinants in
Speaker 1: longevity and happiness is an individual sense of gratitude. Right, Yes.
Speaker 1: A lot of research indicates people who express a high
Speaker 1: degree of appreciation recognize that things they have to be
Speaker 1: grateful for tend to live a more fulfilling and longer
Speaker 1: life up from it, Yeah, do you have your phone
Speaker 1: on the on? I don't uh every email that Dug
Speaker 1: during sent Yes, at the end of Doug during sign off. Um,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of guys like I'll have something
Speaker 1: like badass thing they use on their sign off, like
Speaker 1: a c P because it's stupid to shoot twice. Right,
Speaker 1: Doug Durings is uh, Doug Durn's is the days when
Speaker 1: I keep my gratitude higher? Than my expectations. You know,
Speaker 1: those are good days. Anyways. I'm sorry, No, it's I
Speaker 1: feel like we're dogging on how dugs fire is not organic. No, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's funny you mentioned Doug during because he and
Speaker 1: I were texting today a little bit and I was
Speaker 1: texting to express my gratitude Doug during, Like, I want
Speaker 1: you to just look at this text. This is from today.
Speaker 1: I want to reiterate my gratitude Dug Duran's response, I'm
Speaker 1: grateful for all of it too. So what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to get at here is and this is a this
Speaker 1: is a piece of wisdom I picked up from my
Speaker 1: Grandma Alexander, who taught me every day try to find
Speaker 1: something to be grateful for. Calls it counting your blessing, right,
Speaker 1: And you can think about that in a religious way,
Speaker 1: you can think about that in a secular way, but
Speaker 1: taking stock of the things that we have to be
Speaker 1: grateful for. And that's the reason that Thanksgiving is like,
Speaker 1: by far, my favorite holiday of the year, getting everybody together,
Speaker 1: looking a big meal, having time where you actually just
Speaker 1: think about how good you've got it. Because every single
Speaker 1: person in this room and every single person listened to
Speaker 1: this has a hell of a lot to be thankful for, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're all gonna live long lives, um, but there's a
Speaker 1: lot of people who have a lot to be thankful for.
Speaker 1: They don't recognize it. Right. So one of the things
Speaker 1: that happens when you have this food that you're connected to,
Speaker 1: I like, it makes Thanksgiving more than a once a
Speaker 1: year kind of thing. You have the opportunity to sit
Speaker 1: down and take stock of all the things you have
Speaker 1: would be grateful for, and you can think about that
Speaker 1: in terms of the wildlife resources of the country. Um.
Speaker 1: I think I do a lot more cooking and service
Speaker 1: to my family as a result of having this meat
Speaker 1: that I want to work my way through because a
Speaker 1: piece of it is definitely like, Man, my freezer is full.
Speaker 1: I do want to go hunting next fall. We've got
Speaker 1: to get through all this meat. It's not like a chore,
Speaker 1: but it's this like it's like it's like the sand
Speaker 1: and the hourglass, right, Like I gotta get that sand
Speaker 1: going through the hourglass such that when August or September
Speaker 1: rolls around, I've got some space in the freezer because
Speaker 1: I want to go hunting again. So there's a piece
Speaker 1: of that, but really it's this idea of the celebration
Speaker 1: and the gratitude and just a little story in in UM.
Speaker 1: I'll counter just a little bit what you were saying
Speaker 1: about um other people coming into your home mat where
Speaker 1: you're you're saying, like being able to share with other
Speaker 1: people is a is a big thing. I agree that
Speaker 1: that's a big thing. But something happened at our dinner
Speaker 1: table recently where it was just my wife, our daughter,
Speaker 1: and me, and we have taken my Grandma Alexander's um
Speaker 1: tradition of the gratitude exercise and also stolen your best, worst,
Speaker 1: weirdest exercise for our dinner table. We talked about what's
Speaker 1: your best, what's your worst, what's your weirdest, what's something
Speaker 1: you're grateful for? And it's a way to like have
Speaker 1: a dinner conversation because my wife and I are trying
Speaker 1: to make the family dinner like a sacred thing. We're
Speaker 1: trying to carve time out and make it like we're
Speaker 1: sitting here, we're having a meal together. It's going to
Speaker 1: be our nightly tradition, right. And we got this daughter
Speaker 1: who's going to be four in August, so she's you know,
Speaker 1: still developing right like she's she hasn't figured out the
Speaker 1: whole world yet. But there was a there was a
Speaker 1: dinner we were having would have been late last year
Speaker 1: earlier this year, um, where we're eating some of the
Speaker 1: moose from Idaho, and I've done a European mount of
Speaker 1: that moose skull, so I've got it hanging in our
Speaker 1: living room, but you can see it from our dining
Speaker 1: room table. And so we're sitting there, going around the
Speaker 1: dinner table doing what we're grateful for. And my little
Speaker 1: girl is three years old. She says, I'm thankful for
Speaker 1: the moose for his meat. That's nice, and it like
Speaker 1: sent a chill down my spine. Dude, to have this
Speaker 1: little person who's still trying to figure things out acknowledge
Speaker 1: that there's this way in the twenty one century for
Speaker 1: us as a family to be gathered around this sacred
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving meal that was happening in December January. And having
Speaker 1: her at that age understanding that there's this thing to
Speaker 1: be grateful for, which is this remaining wildness that we
Speaker 1: have in this country. And given what I do professionally,
Speaker 1: having my my rear dedicated to the conservation cause and
Speaker 1: then having this little person be like, man, I'm grateful
Speaker 1: that that moose did something so that we can have
Speaker 1: this dinner. And I feel like my family is a
Speaker 1: better place, our country is a better place, and portions
Speaker 1: of the world at least are a better place because
Speaker 1: people are experiencing that kind of deep personal connection and
Speaker 1: gratitude and we're gonna live longer as a result. Um
Speaker 1: the family meal thing, uh is something that pushed really
Speaker 1: heavy and not longer. I took my eight year old
Speaker 1: in for his check up, like his eight year check up,
Speaker 1: and they give you a questionnaire and one of the questions,
Speaker 1: like rightolf top was like do you have guns in
Speaker 1: the home? And I'm like, yeahh man, where's this going?
Speaker 1: You know? But then if it's yes, it allows you
Speaker 1: to go to the next box, which is do you
Speaker 1: keep them secured? The next question is do you have
Speaker 1: family dinner time? Remember thinking I like this some of it.
Speaker 1: She wrote this thing, man, your gun secured, have family dinner? Uh?
Speaker 1: Got one last one and you guys can hit a
Speaker 1: your concluders or not. And this is just a guy
Speaker 1: that rolled in and I can just feel his pain.
Speaker 1: His short, clean sentences he says, I missed a beauty
Speaker 1: of a tom this morning on my first ever turkey hunt.
Speaker 1: Missed twelve gauge full choke long beard. Will I ever
Speaker 1: get over it? Nope? And I'm telling you what, man,
Speaker 1: I remember the first So the first year we were,
Speaker 1: the first year, we just completed our one We just
Speaker 1: finished our one hundred episode of media to the TV show,
Speaker 1: made a hundred of them. And however the long like,
Speaker 1: however long that takes right the first ever season we
Speaker 1: did in one of the first hunts of the first
Speaker 1: ever season we made, I missed a very big black tail,
Speaker 1: sick of black tail, the likes of which I have
Speaker 1: not seen since. I am starting to come to terms
Speaker 1: with it. Like I'm starting to not be you know.
Speaker 1: I just reminded of I gotta take this in a
Speaker 1: weird direction for a second. I remember Matt, who's sitting
Speaker 1: here one time, reviewing in his mind some interactions he
Speaker 1: had had with women in high school and being like,
Speaker 1: he's like, now that I look at what I think
Speaker 1: was going on there, and I didn't detect what was happening,
Speaker 1: And he was down on the floor of the bar,
Speaker 1: beating the ground and going stupid stupid, stupid, and I
Speaker 1: still you know, I still like I'm getting over that now.
Speaker 1: So I think that the pain of like the myths
Speaker 1: just you get circumspect about it. Yeah, I've gotten over
Speaker 1: the missed opportunities with young girls from my teens or whatever.
Speaker 1: But I need to get counseling on a few misses.
Speaker 1: You pointed out one thing about missing is what you
Speaker 1: don't like about it? Is it because you miss because
Speaker 1: your panic? Right, I'd like if you miss a deer
Speaker 1: at twenty yards. Yeah, paper all day at twenty yards,
Speaker 1: So you know it's like I panic. And remember you're
Speaker 1: saying something really kind of interesting. You said, what I hate?
Speaker 1: It's just anger at myself. But I can't control my greed.
Speaker 1: Yeah that I wanted it so bad. Yeah, it's interesting
Speaker 1: way to put its. Like, I can't like, how am
Speaker 1: I so greedy? I can't control your passions like my
Speaker 1: like here I am, I can't like beat my passions,
Speaker 1: like I want it so bad that it actually prevents
Speaker 1: me from getting it. Yeah, what kind of fool? Oh, No,
Speaker 1: I really need counseling. He'll get over it because Turkey
Speaker 1: season is gonna you know, it's gonna be here, again
Speaker 1: six seven months. Um, Yeah, you get lots of opportunities. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because like the turkey's um, they're so hard to tell apart.
Speaker 1: Do you don't have that burned image right like you
Speaker 1: do with something that's distinguished, like the antlers, right, they
Speaker 1: burn in your mind man, you know. Yeah, the giant
Speaker 1: mule deer with a bunch of extras and like fifteen
Speaker 1: points on one side and thirty points on the other side. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you might never get over missing that one. That's hard
Speaker 1: any sage wisdom, I think, so a couple of thoughts.
Speaker 1: First off, don't hang your head because it happens to everybody.
Speaker 1: And once you've racked up a set of experiences that
Speaker 1: includes a clean mess versus an animal that gets the
Speaker 1: way that you know you hit, those are the ones
Speaker 1: that stick with me a lot more. There are times
Speaker 1: you know I've missed something cleanly, and you once you've
Speaker 1: been through enough of those experiences, you're like, well, at
Speaker 1: least I missed him cleanly, you know, the one that
Speaker 1: got away but out of way untouched. Um. And if
Speaker 1: he thinks this experience with that turkey hurt, wait till
Speaker 1: he experiences something where he doesn't recover an animal. He
Speaker 1: knows he hit, and then you get to live with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think there's no there's nothing I've experienced that's
Speaker 1: more soul rendering, like you know, to the point that
Speaker 1: like what am I even doing out here? Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: the lowest you can feel. I think I've I felt
Speaker 1: like there's like I feel like I've walked out the
Speaker 1: woods feeling like I am done with this. So that's
Speaker 1: so the bird got away. Hopefully the bird's fine. He's
Speaker 1: shooting a full choke. Chances are a close range of
Speaker 1: the full choke that the turkey is dead or the
Speaker 1: turkey's untouched. He doesn't mention that he sees feathers flying
Speaker 1: or anything like that. So take solace in the fact
Speaker 1: that that tom is out there to hunt another day.
Speaker 1: There's one one piece of it. I wonder if it
Speaker 1: walked past them off the roost without him calling. I
Speaker 1: want to give me a piece of practical advice. I
Speaker 1: guarantee he sailed it over the top of its head,
Speaker 1: because he's aiming at its head, not its wattles. I
Speaker 1: hate to um rubed salt in his wound, but I
Speaker 1: was thinking about this Saturday. I've never missed a turkey.
Speaker 1: I yeah, you were with me. I've never missed one.
Speaker 1: I had one fly off like he rolled Hi. Then
Speaker 1: he got up and flu and he got up and
Speaker 1: pitched off the mountainside and was gone. It's gone. I
Speaker 1: mean there wasn't even you couldn't even have envisioned like
Speaker 1: going over to have a look. He was just that
Speaker 1: felt bad. Uh. And you find a little things and
Speaker 1: you wanted to wedge in there thinking about this and
Speaker 1: never got a chance to wedge. No. No, it's just
Speaker 1: great to be here. This is a really good guy.
Speaker 1: Like the conversations you guys are having, it's good to
Speaker 1: be involved. It's good to see everybody coming out for
Speaker 1: these things. And there's nothing you're like, Man, I wish
Speaker 1: he would have no. No, I'm sated. I feel like
Speaker 1: I've spoken my piece. No hanging Chad's or anything nice.
Speaker 1: The hanging shad reference, I like it. Yeah, A good Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you want to there's nothing you want to lay
Speaker 1: out there, just like a totally like the vegans drink
Speaker 1: milk breast milk right. No, No, I was gonna use
Speaker 1: my ten seconds because I know we're short on time,
Speaker 1: just to remind everybody that we're gonna set up some
Speaker 1: space here to do some book signing, and then we're
Speaker 1: gonna have a couple of lines, and the awesome help
Speaker 1: here at the improv is gonna help you guys make
Speaker 1: a nice line for to do some book signing and
Speaker 1: pictures that works at the improv. Man has been great.
Speaker 1: I wonder what if you I'm thinking now, like if
Speaker 1: you crisp Simplisson in the oven and then drizzle little
Speaker 1: chocolate and dipped it Bress Milt like cookies. Can I
Speaker 1: can I just take a moment to tell you guys
Speaker 1: about the jewels? Suvie done some Suvian? Have you done
Speaker 1: some suvi Uh? You look like you're ready for a
Speaker 1: big concluder. I'm not going to read this to you,
Speaker 1: but I do want to point a couple of things
Speaker 1: out as a concluders. So I've got the National Survey
Speaker 1: on Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife Associated Recreation, which was the
Speaker 1: results of which were released late in This is the
Speaker 1: report that touches on the decline in hunting participation that
Speaker 1: has been hearing a lot about in the news, of
Speaker 1: which I have many questions about, of which you have
Speaker 1: many questions about. Would you like going to answer one
Speaker 1: of your questions that I know has been on your
Speaker 1: mind about this report. Okay, just stick with the concluder.
Speaker 1: I just want to let it be known that there's
Speaker 1: a if you look at me, rather than a halo
Speaker 1: the question mark a question. Okay, fair enough. If you
Speaker 1: look at the percentage of Americans who are participating in
Speaker 1: hunting in particular, based on the change between the twenty
Speaker 1: eleven and the data UM, and this is a survey
Speaker 1: conducted every five years, we have experienced a barely substantial
Speaker 1: decline in hunting participation UM on the order of in
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven about thirteen point seven million hunters the
Speaker 1: two thousand sixteen eleven point five million hunters, and these
Speaker 1: are people sixteen years and older. A modest uptick in
Speaker 1: recreational fishing there about thirty six million anglers as of
Speaker 1: the survey, and then wildlife viewing eighty six million. And
Speaker 1: so what I want to what I want to touch
Speaker 1: on is my concluded I've got I've got kind of
Speaker 1: a question. And on the way here, I was listening
Speaker 1: to the podcast that came out from Colorado, and during
Speaker 1: the concluders there you had a few of the guests.
Speaker 1: I know, Cal touched on this idea of trailhead diplomacy.
Speaker 1: He talked about like needing to interact in a positive
Speaker 1: way with the other people at the trailhead. Yeah. Yeah, putting,
Speaker 1: putting the hunting communities best foot forward. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of effort that has gone into
Speaker 1: recruiting new hunters over the last ten years. Um. They
Speaker 1: talked about the three hours of recruiting, retaining, and reactivating
Speaker 1: new hunters. But if you look at the demographics, we
Speaker 1: have this big bulge of hunters who are towards the
Speaker 1: end of their hunting career, and it's unlikely that there's
Speaker 1: going to be a similar kind of infusion of new
Speaker 1: hunters through recruitment to make up for this impending decline
Speaker 1: of baby boomers. Dina's baby boomers age out of the
Speaker 1: hunting puffet in reproduct of rates go down in the country. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So as a concluder, what I want to do is
Speaker 1: I want to I want to ask a question of
Speaker 1: the audience, all right, because I feel like as the
Speaker 1: hunting numbers decline, we have a couple of opportunities, we
Speaker 1: have a couple of a choice. Basically, one option is
Speaker 1: we think about our community in terms of hunters looking
Speaker 1: out for hunters, like doing everything we can two protect
Speaker 1: our interests and think about our community as a community
Speaker 1: of hunters hunters looking out for hunters. That's Option A,
Speaker 1: watching our own, watching our own. Option B is kind
Speaker 1: of like the trailhead diplomacy idea on steroids, where the
Speaker 1: hunting community takes a leadership role, still thing on the
Speaker 1: fact that some of America, the non hunting public, approves
Speaker 1: of hunting, and we champion a cause for conservation that
Speaker 1: welcomes in like actively seeks out partnership relationship with other
Speaker 1: segments of the conservation community to try to create a
Speaker 1: social monolith for conservation of which hunters are a central
Speaker 1: part but a member of a community. And the argument
Speaker 1: against doing that, the reason you would not want to
Speaker 1: do that is because that community comes with sharing more
Speaker 1: decision space. Right. You can think about it in terms
Speaker 1: of funding. For example, we currently bear the bulk of
Speaker 1: the burden the fund state fish and wildlife agencies through
Speaker 1: license fees and the exercise taxes, if which buys us
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of influence, which buys us a disproportionate
Speaker 1: amount of influence. So if we want to share that
Speaker 1: decision space, you're going to be sharing that decision space
Speaker 1: with a whole lot of people who might not have
Speaker 1: the same values, the same interests. But I would point
Speaker 1: again to the high approval rating among the non hunting
Speaker 1: public for regulated legal hunting, and I would point to
Speaker 1: the implications of us failing to act in a meaningful way,
Speaker 1: because if we're going to be a small element of
Speaker 1: the population in a democratic society and potentially losing quality
Speaker 1: and quantity of outdoor recreational opportunity as a result of
Speaker 1: most people just simply not caring about conservation in the
Speaker 1: long term, we have a lot to lose. But the
Speaker 1: question for the audience, and I I want to hear, like, honestly,
Speaker 1: I want to hear it, yep. If you feel like
Speaker 1: hunters need to look out for hunters first and foremost,
Speaker 1: or the option a yep, I want to hear hunters
Speaker 1: as the foundation of a conservation revolution that involves a
Speaker 1: whole host of values. Everybody ready for that? Can you yep?
Speaker 1: With pause? Can you yep with baus like a like
Speaker 1: A like A like a reticent like yep, Nope, you
Speaker 1: get you get a you get A or you get B,
Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong like nobody. The only ground rule
Speaker 1: here is you cannot ridicule your neighbor one way or
Speaker 1: the other for what they do. Is everybody cool with that? Okay?
Speaker 1: Look out for your own or extend to hand that.
Speaker 1: I like that. Look out for your own hunters. Looking
Speaker 1: out for hunters or extend your hand hunters as the
Speaker 1: catalysts for conservation revolution. Yeah, go ahead, looking out for
Speaker 1: your own runners as the catalyst for a conservation revolution. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right. It's a good experiment. And thank you for
Speaker 1: bringing such a big, well thought concluder. That was. That
Speaker 1: was a that was a an award winning concluder. Carl again, Carl,
Speaker 1: Malcolm matt Ronello, you're honestly tell us thank you. Uh,
Speaker 1: couple of things. I want to look a woman because
Speaker 1: you had a thing you wanted to add. No, A
Speaker 1: couple of quick things out front. We have, uh long
Speaker 1: ago a buddy of mine that not long ago this spring,
Speaker 1: a buddy of mine was talking about a turkey he killed.
Speaker 1: How the turkey was ripping some gobbles and it was
Speaker 1: real cold morning, and every time he'd rip a gobble
Speaker 1: of steam cloud and come out of his mouth, and
Speaker 1: I observed that if I was a painter, that's the
Speaker 1: first thing I would paint. So a podcast listener made
Speaker 1: us the steam breathing power Gobbler and check out the
Speaker 1: posters out front. We got our genuine blouch shirts out front.
Speaker 1: And there was some other note sorry, wasn't there a
Speaker 1: thing that we decided that you were gonna say? No,
Speaker 1: there was some throwing of some hats. I recall, oh
Speaker 1: that there wasn't a thing like I said, that's your job.
Speaker 1: He did it as part of my concluder help everybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, and we'll yeah, well we'll come up front
Speaker 1: to to to uh sign stuff and do some pictures
Speaker 1: and hang out until they say it's time to go home.
Speaker 1: So thanks a lot of guys appreciate it again. Thank you,