WEBVTT - #588 Jason Flom with Jason Strong

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<v Speaker 1>This is Jason Flom, and I'm here with an update

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<v Speaker 1>that I wish I didn't have to share. My friend,

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Strong, exoneree and fellow brother-in-arms against injustice, passed away

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<v Speaker 1>on August 8th. Jason lost almost 16 years of his

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<v Speaker 1>life to wrongful incarceration. His story is, it's one that

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<v Speaker 1>haunts me. I mean, it's so insane, but despite Everything

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<v Speaker 1>he endured, he never lost his humanity. He never lost

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<v Speaker 1>his sense of humor either. He just was a guy

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<v Speaker 1>who loved life, loved music. I mean, I remember taking

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<v Speaker 1>him to a Greta Van Fleet show in the early days.

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<v Speaker 1>Such a joyful, joyful guy. And more than anything, he

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<v Speaker 1>was just like a good guy, like a really good

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<v Speaker 1>guy who cared deeply about the exoneree community and about

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<v Speaker 1>just other people in general. I gotta be honest, I

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<v Speaker 1>was in awe of Jason when we first met, and

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<v Speaker 1>I still am, and I probably always will be, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so grateful that he trusted us to share his

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<v Speaker 1>harrowing journey. So today, in his memory, and in tribute

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<v Speaker 1>to his extraordinary life, we want to share it with

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<v Speaker 1>you again. Rest in peace and power, my friend. Here

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<v Speaker 1>it is, the Jason Strong story.

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<v Speaker 2>America has 2.2 million people in prison. If just 1%

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<v Speaker 2>is wrong, that's 22,000 people. That's a lot of people's

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<v Speaker 2>lives destroyed.

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<v Speaker 3>If the system want to take you out of society,

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<v Speaker 3>they will do it. No matter what laws they have

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<v Speaker 3>to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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<v Speaker 3>they are breaking the law.

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<v Speaker 2>Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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<v Speaker 2>of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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<v Speaker 2>hear my family break down behind me and not be

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<v Speaker 2>able to do anything about it, I can't describe the

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<v Speaker 2>crushing weight that was.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not anti-police, I'm just anti-corruption.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of times we look and we see something

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<v Speaker 3>happen to somebody and that's the first thing we say,

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<v Speaker 3>that could never happen to me, but it can.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Flom. This is the opening episode of Season 5,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm absolutely honored to have today's guest, Jason Strong. Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm honored to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm really happy you're here for a number of reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry you had to go through this. So Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>before all this happened and your life was turned really

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<v Speaker 1>into a living hell for 15 and a half years,

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<v Speaker 1>how was your life? You grew up in Illinois, right?

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<v Speaker 2>No, actually, I spent most of my life in Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>I was born in Arizona, lived in Texas most of

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<v Speaker 2>my life. And I moved to Illinois to try to, well, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>I moved to Wisconsin first. with my grandparents to try

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<v Speaker 2>to get a different start. Cause I was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>on a bad road doing drugs, drinking, acting up. So

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<v Speaker 2>eventually I moved to Illinois and with some friends and

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<v Speaker 2>then I got my own place there. But, uh, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I never really did change. I still kind of lived

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<v Speaker 2>like a rock star. You know, I was working in

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<v Speaker 2>an adult bookstore, did a lot of drinking and partying

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<v Speaker 2>and drugs. And, but I mean, at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the day, I was still a good person. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't, you know, robbing people. I wasn't killing people.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't, you know, in any gangs or doing anything ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>You weren't hurting anybody other than yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly. Exactly. But I mean, I was, you know, living

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<v Speaker 2>in the fast life and I wasn't thinking about it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, so it's just one of those things that

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<v Speaker 2>some people do that when they're young, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was living like a rock star, but I wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>a rock star.

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<v Speaker 1>But that being said, so you're, you're, you're hanging around

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<v Speaker 1>trying to figure it out. How old were you at

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<v Speaker 1>this time?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, 24.

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<v Speaker 1>24. So, yeah, so you're getting, you know, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's funny because I think a lot of people in

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<v Speaker 1>their mid-20s start to figure out what it is that

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<v Speaker 1>they're really doing. I know for me it's true. That's

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<v Speaker 1>when I sobered up and started, you know, trying to

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<v Speaker 1>really build my life up instead of down.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, before I got locked up, so I got locked

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<v Speaker 2>up in December of 99. Before that happened, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I was trying to think about what do I want

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<v Speaker 2>to do? You know, I was considering going back to

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<v Speaker 2>school and pursuing something in the world of art. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really know exactly what, but I wanted to do

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<v Speaker 2>something with art. I've always been creative. But I never

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<v Speaker 2>got that opportunity. It was taken from me by the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that I got arrested for this crime.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's a crazy story. I mean, it was your misfortune.

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<v Speaker 1>You didn't know it at the time, but you were

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<v Speaker 1>living in a county that turns out to have the

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<v Speaker 1>highest number of wrongful convictions in Illinois, which is one

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<v Speaker 1>of the states that has the highest number of wrongful convictions.

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<v Speaker 1>But other than Chicago, this area that you lived in was...

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<v Speaker 1>a bad spot. It was a hotbed for police misconduct

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<v Speaker 1>and wrongful convictions as a result. So there you are

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<v Speaker 1>knocking around, trying to figure it out, you know, having

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<v Speaker 1>your party in times, whatever you're doing. And this comes

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<v Speaker 1>out of the blue, right?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It was, uh, December 20th. I was hanging out

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<v Speaker 2>with my girlfriend and her friend, you know, we were

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<v Speaker 2>smoking a bowl, having a few beers and I get

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<v Speaker 2>a knock at the door. Thinking it's my buddy just

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<v Speaker 2>coming over to hang out. Open the door. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of cops standing there with guns drawn. And they

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<v Speaker 2>push into my room, throw me down on my bed,

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<v Speaker 2>handcuff me. And the nightmare began.

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<v Speaker 1>Did they tell you what they were arresting you for?

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<v Speaker 2>No, but I had a clue because they had been

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<v Speaker 2>around earlier that day asking people if they'd seen anything

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<v Speaker 2>or knew anything. So, I mean, I had a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of a clue, but it still threw me because,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I had nothing to do with this crime,

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<v Speaker 2>so I didn't understand why this was happening. I was confused.

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<v Speaker 2>I was scared.

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<v Speaker 1>But when you say they were asking, did you see anything,

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<v Speaker 1>did you know anything, about what? Was it a specific

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<v Speaker 1>crime that they were asking about?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they had discovered a Jane Doe's body in the

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<v Speaker 2>Lake County Forest Preserve. And so on December 9th, this

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<v Speaker 2>body was found. And apparently she had been badly beaten

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<v Speaker 2>and tortured and suffered a really bad death. And blunt

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<v Speaker 2>force trauma was the cause of death. And that was

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<v Speaker 2>on December 9th. Around December 14th, there was a prostitute

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<v Speaker 2>sting in the area where I lived. I lived next

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<v Speaker 2>door to the bookstore that I worked at, the adult bookstore.

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<v Speaker 2>So I had thought that this woman was a prostitute.

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<v Speaker 2>And I told her, you can't be doing this around here.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't want to have to call the

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<v Speaker 2>cops on you. You know, just go back to your

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<v Speaker 2>room and keep it cool. And later on, I came

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<v Speaker 2>out and she was still doing that. And that's when

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<v Speaker 2>I first met Jeremy Tweedy, who would later become my co-defendant.

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<v Speaker 2>So that night I walked up to him. I said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>how long has this woman been out here? Do you know?

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<v Speaker 2>He said, she's been out there a while. She looks

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<v Speaker 2>like she was crying. So I thought maybe she had

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<v Speaker 2>a pimp or something that was forcing her to do this.

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<v Speaker 2>So I struck up a conversation with her, asking if

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<v Speaker 2>there was anything I could do to help. whatever, because

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to have this going on and I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want to see her hurt either. And we talked

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<v Speaker 2>for a little while. I mean, even to the extent

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<v Speaker 2>that we asked about her kids and, you know, why

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<v Speaker 2>didn't she find a better line of work, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>And I eventually went in to eat my dinner and

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<v Speaker 2>her and Jeremy Tweedy had this conversation that later turns

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<v Speaker 2>out he apparently allegedly said something to her about, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't be around here because there was a woman

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<v Speaker 2>that was killed here recently. And a bunch of people

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<v Speaker 2>had beat on her and threw her in a van

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<v Speaker 2>and got rid of her. And they used that as

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<v Speaker 2>a reason to come and arrest him. And then he

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<v Speaker 2>said that it was me. Now, why did he say

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<v Speaker 2>it was me? So the cop that arrested him somehow

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<v Speaker 2>or another claims that this was an accident, but that

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<v Speaker 2>his hand got crushed in the car door on the

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<v Speaker 2>way to the police station. And next thing you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he's fingering me for the crime. Years later, when he recants,

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<v Speaker 2>he says that it was because the cops only wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about me. Since the moment he stepped into

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<v Speaker 2>the room, they kept saying, what did Jason Strong do

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<v Speaker 2>with this crime? What do you know about Jason Strong's

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<v Speaker 2>involvement in this crime? And they just kept mentioning me

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<v Speaker 2>over and over and over to the point where he

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<v Speaker 2>got the gist of it. They wanted me. So he

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<v Speaker 2>said that I did it. He saw it happen. And

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<v Speaker 2>then they came and arrested me. They came and arrested

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<v Speaker 2>my friend Jason Johnson.

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<v Speaker 1>But wait, what's the thing with the hand in the

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<v Speaker 1>car door? How does that fit into.

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<v Speaker 2>This whole narrative? I think they intimidated him by injuring him.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't prove that. But I mean, I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of odd that his hand was slammed in a

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<v Speaker 2>police car door on a way to the police station.

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<v Speaker 2>And then next thing you know, he's singing these lies

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<v Speaker 2>for them. Well, there's a second part to this that

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<v Speaker 2>I can't prove this, but this is my opinion on

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<v Speaker 2>the matter, is the officer that brought him in actually

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<v Speaker 2>had it in for me. So prior to all this happening...

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<v Speaker 2>This cop had been coming around the bookstore and harassing

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<v Speaker 2>me for a couple months. And I don't even know

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<v Speaker 2>why he ever started doing that, but he did. And

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted me to be a snitch. He wanted me

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<v Speaker 2>to tell him about drug dealers and different things. I'm like, man,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know nothing. I don't know nothing about no

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<v Speaker 2>drug dealers. And he told me if I did not

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<v Speaker 2>cooperate with him, he would make my life a living hell.

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<v Speaker 2>A few short weeks later, I'm locked up for a

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<v Speaker 2>murder I didn't commit. And he was the initiating officer

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<v Speaker 2>that arrested the guy who would become my co-defendant, who

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't even know on the night in question.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a lot of coincidences.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly. But I can't prove that he did anything.

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<v Speaker 1>You were a victim of some really terrible misdeeds. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>by the people that were supposed to protect you and

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<v Speaker 1>everybody else in the community. And that's quite the opposite

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<v Speaker 1>of what they did. So it's pretty clear why Tweedy

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<v Speaker 1>would have implicated you because he would have implicated his

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<v Speaker 1>grandmother if he had to to make them stop doing

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<v Speaker 1>whatever it was they were doing to him. And he

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<v Speaker 1>implicated himself as well. But he wasn't involved in the

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<v Speaker 1>crime either. No.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, he turned out to be actually quite a character.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a bit of a pathological liar. Before my trial,

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<v Speaker 2>I think he had like six or seven different versions

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<v Speaker 2>of what happened that night, constantly changing. And to the

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<v Speaker 2>point where at my trial, he came up with a

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<v Speaker 2>new version of events that were different from all the

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<v Speaker 2>earlier ones. So he would always make changes. And he

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<v Speaker 2>just did this for years. He stuck to his lie

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<v Speaker 2>for years. But I think it all started because of

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<v Speaker 2>that one cop. I can't prove it. That's just my theory.

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<v Speaker 2>But part of it is going off of also what

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<v Speaker 2>he told me years later when he recanted Jeremy Tweedy

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<v Speaker 2>about how that's all they wanted to talk about was me.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, well, why would they be so focused

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<v Speaker 2>on me? Why me of all the people that they

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<v Speaker 2>could have thought about?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, it sounds like this one officer. All right.

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<v Speaker 1>you know, had just sort of figured you were going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a good source of information because you were

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<v Speaker 1>in sort of a seedy area and a seedy business, right?

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<v Speaker 1>And he had it in his head, you must have

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<v Speaker 1>known stuff, and he felt like you were holding out

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<v Speaker 1>on him. So he decided to exact his revenge. This

0:11:22.780 --> 0:11:27.450
<v Speaker 1>insane story of yours ultimately ends up with you being

0:11:27.530 --> 0:11:31.410
<v Speaker 1>held in jail for quite a long time, pending trial,

0:11:32.150 --> 0:11:35.090
<v Speaker 1>and ultimately going to trial. What was that process like?

0:11:35.150 --> 0:11:37.110
<v Speaker 1>Did you have decent representation there?

0:11:37.470 --> 0:11:41.530
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I did not have good representation. I had public defenders.

0:11:42.290 --> 0:11:44.430
<v Speaker 2>I actually, I asked my family over and over to

0:11:44.450 --> 0:11:46.110
<v Speaker 2>get me a lawyer. I knew I needed a real

0:11:46.150 --> 0:11:49.770
<v Speaker 2>lawyer because these guys just, they weren't going to cut it.

0:11:49.970 --> 0:11:52.870
<v Speaker 2>They didn't listen to me. They had their own view

0:11:52.990 --> 0:11:54.620
<v Speaker 2>on things, but I didn't know what a lot of

0:11:54.650 --> 0:11:56.380
<v Speaker 2>my rights were at that time either and how I

0:11:56.420 --> 0:12:00.800
<v Speaker 2>could make changes in anything. But we went to trial

0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:04.770
<v Speaker 2>with them basically handing me over to the jury. They

0:12:04.809 --> 0:12:07.870
<v Speaker 2>went in and said that my coerced false confession was

0:12:07.950 --> 0:12:11.530
<v Speaker 2>actually true and that I didn't do the crime, but

0:12:11.590 --> 0:12:14.510
<v Speaker 2>I was there when it happened. That was their defense

0:12:14.550 --> 0:12:16.459
<v Speaker 2>for me. And I was like, well, that's ridiculous. I

0:12:16.500 --> 0:12:19.920
<v Speaker 2>didn't do any of this. But that was their strategy,

0:12:19.980 --> 0:12:22.780
<v Speaker 2>if you will. They basically handed me over. They screwed

0:12:22.820 --> 0:12:25.800
<v Speaker 2>me for the prosecution. I had no chance.

0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.220
<v Speaker 1>You're literally sitting there watching yourself drown.

0:12:28.460 --> 0:12:30.319
<v Speaker 2>Right. So when the time came for me to take

0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:31.980
<v Speaker 2>the stand, I couldn't take the stand. I would have

0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:33.739
<v Speaker 2>gone against every single thing they already said.

0:12:34.530 --> 0:12:35.090
<v Speaker 1>That's unreal.

0:12:35.850 --> 0:12:38.290
<v Speaker 2>They were looking for the easiest route. Rather than to

0:12:38.370 --> 0:12:40.830
<v Speaker 2>try to fight my case and prove my innocence, they

0:12:40.870 --> 0:12:42.500
<v Speaker 2>took the easiest option for themselves.

0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.950
<v Speaker 1>It's a very bizarre set of circumstances when you have

0:12:58.050 --> 0:13:01.530
<v Speaker 1>your advocate actually working against you.

0:13:01.630 --> 0:13:01.730
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:13:02.260 --> 0:13:04.810
<v Speaker 1>And you're, I mean, I can't imagine. You're in this

0:13:04.890 --> 0:13:08.430
<v Speaker 1>crazy vortex. You've already been through hell. You've been sitting

0:13:08.470 --> 0:13:10.850
<v Speaker 1>in jail for, you know, how long were you.

0:13:10.770 --> 0:13:14.209
<v Speaker 2>In jail for? So the trial, I believe, was in

0:13:14.390 --> 0:13:18.320
<v Speaker 2>October of 2000. So almost a year by that point. Right.

0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.500
<v Speaker 1>So you're already dizzy from this experience. I mean, anybody

0:13:21.540 --> 0:13:23.980
<v Speaker 1>would be. And now you're in this crazy vortex. And

0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.700
<v Speaker 1>you've got these dolts, not even underrepresenting you, but actually

0:13:28.740 --> 0:13:32.560
<v Speaker 1>working against your best interests. for whatever their twisted motives were.

0:13:32.580 --> 0:13:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Did you know, like when the jury went out, did

0:13:35.460 --> 0:13:36.520
<v Speaker 1>you know you were fucked?

0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:38.860
<v Speaker 2>I had a good feeling that, yeah, that was going

0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:40.360
<v Speaker 2>to be the case. I mean, I still had a

0:13:40.420 --> 0:13:43.360
<v Speaker 2>tiny bit of hope, you know, that maybe they would

0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.729
<v Speaker 2>figure something out, but no, I kind of had a

0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:46.550
<v Speaker 2>feeling I was screwed.

0:13:46.770 --> 0:13:48.710
<v Speaker 1>I mean, from the sound of it, I mean, even

0:13:48.770 --> 0:13:49.270
<v Speaker 1>if I was on the jury.

0:13:49.290 --> 0:13:50.890
<v Speaker 2>I don't blame the jury in my case at all.

0:13:51.130 --> 0:13:54.570
<v Speaker 1>I really don't. Unless they had just some weird intuition.

0:13:55.230 --> 0:13:57.310
<v Speaker 2>If I was on my jury, I would have convicted me.

0:13:57.429 --> 0:13:58.830
<v Speaker 1>That's a strong statement. Yeah.

0:13:59.010 --> 0:14:01.690
<v Speaker 2>I mean, at the end of the day, There was

0:14:01.809 --> 0:14:04.050
<v Speaker 2>nothing put forth to defend me and to prove my innocence.

0:14:04.510 --> 0:14:07.250
<v Speaker 1>No. So there you go. So, yeah. So you– it's

0:14:07.270 --> 0:14:09.290
<v Speaker 1>interesting because a lot of the exonerees that have been

0:14:09.340 --> 0:14:12.020
<v Speaker 1>on the show had held out hope until the very end.

0:14:12.260 --> 0:14:16.459
<v Speaker 1>But your circumstance is relatively unique. I mean even with

0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.000
<v Speaker 1>some of the stories we've heard of incompetent defense. How

0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:19.720
<v Speaker 1>long do they deliberate?

0:14:20.580 --> 0:14:23.500
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it wasn't very long at all. Maybe a couple hours.

0:14:23.620 --> 0:14:25.950
<v Speaker 1>Right. I mean, who knows that they were probably having lunch.

0:14:25.970 --> 0:14:27.690
<v Speaker 1>I mean, who knows what they were doing for two

0:14:27.730 --> 0:14:28.150
<v Speaker 1>whole hours.

0:14:28.210 --> 0:14:29.890
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't even know if it was that long.

0:14:29.910 --> 0:14:31.650
<v Speaker 2>That's how it felt in my head as I was

0:14:31.690 --> 0:14:32.390
<v Speaker 2>sitting in a cell.

0:14:32.630 --> 0:14:36.750
<v Speaker 1>Then the moment came, right? Can you describe that horrible,

0:14:36.870 --> 0:14:40.170
<v Speaker 1>horrible moment when you're basically, you must've thought your life

0:14:40.190 --> 0:14:40.590
<v Speaker 1>was over.

0:14:41.010 --> 0:14:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I, uh, that was probably the loneliest day of

0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:50.190
<v Speaker 2>my life. Um, Having to hear those people say that

0:14:50.230 --> 0:14:51.990
<v Speaker 2>I was guilty of a crime that I did not commit,

0:14:52.350 --> 0:14:55.250
<v Speaker 2>and not just once, but the judge made each individual

0:14:55.390 --> 0:14:58.150
<v Speaker 2>one say their verdict, so I had to hear it

0:14:58.270 --> 0:15:00.980
<v Speaker 2>over and over again, and then hear my family break

0:15:01.020 --> 0:15:02.620
<v Speaker 2>down behind me and not be able to do anything

0:15:02.660 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 2>about it. I can't describe the crushing weight that was.

0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.660
<v Speaker 1>How did you deal with it? How did you come

0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.460
<v Speaker 1>out of it? How did you get here? I am

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:19.040
<v Speaker 1>actually in awe of the fortitude. That you have. How

0:15:19.060 --> 0:15:20.840
<v Speaker 1>did you do it? If you can even put it

0:15:20.860 --> 0:15:21.640
<v Speaker 1>into words.

0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think I can. I mean, so after that moment,

0:15:26.660 --> 0:15:29.210
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I wanted to die. Like, I've never wanted

0:15:29.230 --> 0:15:32.590
<v Speaker 2>to die before. It was terrible. And after we left

0:15:32.630 --> 0:15:34.590
<v Speaker 2>the courtroom, I asked the officer if he could take

0:15:34.610 --> 0:15:38.390
<v Speaker 2>me to a private solitary cell just so I could,

0:15:38.730 --> 0:15:42.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, just break down and decompress. And once I

0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.620
<v Speaker 2>put myself back together and I went back to the

0:15:44.660 --> 0:15:48.090
<v Speaker 2>general population, I just started doing a lot of thinking

0:15:48.390 --> 0:15:50.670
<v Speaker 2>and I was angry. I was confused. I didn't know

0:15:50.690 --> 0:15:52.190
<v Speaker 2>what my next move was going to be, but I

0:15:53.150 --> 0:15:58.400
<v Speaker 2>decided to adopt this kind of militaristic mentality and I

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.540
<v Speaker 2>turned everything into a war against the state of Illinois.

0:16:02.460 --> 0:16:07.180
<v Speaker 2>And I studied Sun Tzu and Julius Caesar and tried

0:16:07.220 --> 0:16:10.390
<v Speaker 2>to incorporate this thinking of how to fight a war,

0:16:10.970 --> 0:16:13.250
<v Speaker 2>but I was doing it in the courtroom, the courtrooms

0:16:13.270 --> 0:16:15.700
<v Speaker 2>were my battlefields. So, I mean, I kind of took

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:16.920
<v Speaker 2>on that, that mentality.

0:16:17.460 --> 0:16:19.640
<v Speaker 1>Did you have any help? Did you have an appellate

0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:21.600
<v Speaker 1>lawyer assigned to you or anything like that?

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.500
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we, uh, so after I lost, we hired an attorney,

0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:30.450
<v Speaker 2>Jed Stone, and, uh, he did a post-trial motion and

0:16:30.470 --> 0:16:34.250
<v Speaker 2>then he helped me through my first appeals, but those

0:16:34.270 --> 0:16:37.010
<v Speaker 2>didn't pan out. So when we lost him and we

0:16:37.030 --> 0:16:40.710
<v Speaker 2>couldn't afford him anymore, I became my own attorney and

0:16:40.810 --> 0:16:44.100
<v Speaker 2>I did it my way. And I threw every single

0:16:44.140 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 2>thing I could think about him. I filed my post-conviction

0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.220
<v Speaker 2>petition on my own, which was like 70-something pages long.

0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.110
<v Speaker 2>And I threw every single thing I could think of

0:16:53.150 --> 0:16:57.290
<v Speaker 2>that was wrong with my case at that courtroom. I

0:16:57.350 --> 0:16:59.990
<v Speaker 2>battled it on my own for a while. I got

0:17:00.010 --> 0:17:03.510
<v Speaker 2>an appellate attorney appointed to me at one point. And

0:17:03.570 --> 0:17:06.439
<v Speaker 2>all he did was basically drag things out. But for

0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.399
<v Speaker 2>the most part, I fought myself until I got Northwestern

0:17:10.420 --> 0:17:13.430
<v Speaker 2>to get involved. But that was years and years later.

0:17:14.390 --> 0:17:17.290
<v Speaker 1>And talk about that a little bit, Jason. Northwestern? Northwestern, yeah. Because,

0:17:17.369 --> 0:17:19.389
<v Speaker 1>I mean, first of all, one of the best schools

0:17:19.430 --> 0:17:19.950
<v Speaker 1>in the country.

0:17:19.970 --> 0:17:20.930
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:17:20.950 --> 0:17:22.590
<v Speaker 1>And they do amazing work.

0:17:23.130 --> 0:17:25.330
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely they do. Yeah, I would not be free if

0:17:25.390 --> 0:17:28.520
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't for them. So I was in the federal court.

0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.980
<v Speaker 2>I was filing a federal habeas corpus all on my own.

0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.600
<v Speaker 2>And there was a procedural issue that came up. Well,

0:17:35.619 --> 0:17:37.750
<v Speaker 2>let me back up. Before that, I had already been

0:17:37.830 --> 0:17:40.379
<v Speaker 2>trying to reach out to Innocence Projects for years. I've

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.820
<v Speaker 2>been writing them letters and, you know, having my family

0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.820
<v Speaker 2>make phone calls. And I had been in touch with

0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Jane Raley at Northwestern. And we, you know, been kind

0:17:50.580 --> 0:17:52.740
<v Speaker 2>of back and forth and everything. But she couldn't take

0:17:52.820 --> 0:17:55.460
<v Speaker 2>on the case at the time. But we still communicated.

0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.610
<v Speaker 2>So when I got to federal court, I don't know

0:17:58.850 --> 0:18:01.830
<v Speaker 2>if Judge Kennelly saw something in my case or what.

0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.390
<v Speaker 2>But he called Thomas Garrity, the director of the clinic

0:18:06.490 --> 0:18:09.930
<v Speaker 2>at Northwestern, personally and asked him to look at my case.

0:18:10.890 --> 0:18:13.250
<v Speaker 2>And it was just for a procedural issue. But once

0:18:13.350 --> 0:18:16.070
<v Speaker 2>Tom looked at everything, he realized there was more to it.

0:18:16.859 --> 0:18:19.879
<v Speaker 2>And Northwestern decided to take my case on full all

0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.139
<v Speaker 2>the way. That team grew over the years, you know,

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.100
<v Speaker 2>because they have students. And three of the students graduated,

0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.550
<v Speaker 2>went on to big law firms and brought their law

0:18:29.609 --> 0:18:34.200
<v Speaker 2>firms in. So I had Northwestern, Winston and Strawn, and

0:18:34.260 --> 0:18:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Cat Mute and Rosenman, all supporting my fight.

0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.420
<v Speaker 1>So you, I mean, at least in terms of your

0:18:40.619 --> 0:18:43.780
<v Speaker 1>legal representation, you really went from the bottom to the top.

0:18:43.940 --> 0:18:44.460
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.

0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you went from guys who sold you down

0:18:46.530 --> 0:18:50.730
<v Speaker 1>the river to like an army, a legal army. And

0:18:50.750 --> 0:18:54.010
<v Speaker 1>by the way, that happened for a very specific reason,

0:18:54.050 --> 0:18:58.389
<v Speaker 1>which is that you found something that very few people

0:18:58.830 --> 0:19:01.709
<v Speaker 1>could find in your situation. I don't know where you

0:19:01.730 --> 0:19:05.429
<v Speaker 1>got it from, I don't either. But where I think

0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.000
<v Speaker 1>a normal person would have curled up in a corner

0:19:08.060 --> 0:19:12.800
<v Speaker 1>and collapsed or done harm themselves like you talked about

0:19:12.820 --> 0:19:17.330
<v Speaker 1>doing or whatever, you didn't stop. And you maintained faith

0:19:17.490 --> 0:19:19.770
<v Speaker 1>in the system even though the system had totally let

0:19:19.790 --> 0:19:22.830
<v Speaker 1>you down and turned on you, which is remarkable. I

0:19:23.090 --> 0:19:25.129
<v Speaker 1>keep coming back to that. And then as a result,

0:19:25.170 --> 0:19:30.959
<v Speaker 1>you end up with this powerhouse– sort of a power

0:19:31.020 --> 0:19:33.939
<v Speaker 1>trio of advocates, right? The two law firms plus the

0:19:33.980 --> 0:19:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Innocence Project at Northwestern, which, you know, as I said,

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 1>their reputation is amazing. So then things are turning in

0:19:41.510 --> 0:19:44.130
<v Speaker 1>your direction, but you've been in now for quite some time.

0:19:44.450 --> 0:19:47.090
<v Speaker 2>So around the time they took over, I had been

0:19:47.109 --> 0:19:49.730
<v Speaker 2>in about seven and a half, eight years. It was

0:19:49.750 --> 0:19:52.000
<v Speaker 2>a short after we learned about the identity of the victim.

0:19:53.220 --> 0:19:55.180
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I'd been in there for quite a while,

0:19:55.220 --> 0:19:58.919
<v Speaker 2>and it still was another eight years after that before

0:19:58.980 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 2>I was free.

0:20:00.060 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Did you have any clue who might have done something

0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 1>like this?

0:20:03.980 --> 0:20:07.680
<v Speaker 2>No. We do now. We do now. So for many,

0:20:07.740 --> 0:20:10.440
<v Speaker 2>many years, I actually thought Jeremy Tweedy was the guy.

0:20:11.030 --> 0:20:12.910
<v Speaker 2>Because he was so quick to make up all these

0:20:12.970 --> 0:20:16.820
<v Speaker 2>lies about me and to help himself out that I thought, well,

0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.119
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even know this guy. Maybe he's the one

0:20:20.140 --> 0:20:22.600
<v Speaker 2>that did it. And that's why he's so adamant about

0:20:22.660 --> 0:20:25.899
<v Speaker 2>lying against me is he's trying to protect himself somehow.

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.869
<v Speaker 2>He was my main suspect for many, many years. It

0:20:29.990 --> 0:20:34.350
<v Speaker 2>wasn't until we identified the victim, which was seven years

0:20:34.730 --> 0:20:37.869
<v Speaker 2>after I was arrested, that we finally figured out who

0:20:37.890 --> 0:20:40.879
<v Speaker 2>the victim was. It wasn't until then that we started

0:20:40.940 --> 0:20:43.720
<v Speaker 2>to develop an understanding of what might have really happened

0:20:43.780 --> 0:20:47.240
<v Speaker 2>or who the real perpetrators were. There was actually three

0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.270
<v Speaker 2>people that we suspect being involved, which is ironic considering

0:20:50.290 --> 0:20:51.729
<v Speaker 2>that three people were originally arrested.

0:20:52.530 --> 0:20:54.229
<v Speaker 1>Right, you, Tweedy, and Jason Johnson.

0:20:54.270 --> 0:20:56.190
<v Speaker 2>Right. But I was the only one that was ever

0:20:56.230 --> 0:20:59.250
<v Speaker 2>charged with murder. They were charged with the concealment of

0:20:59.290 --> 0:21:02.770
<v Speaker 2>a homicide. Tweedy's was dropped to obstruction for testifying against me.

0:21:03.510 --> 0:21:08.060
<v Speaker 2>But we discovered that There was three individuals, a mother-daughter team.

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.200
<v Speaker 2>They had been, they're grifters. They basically took advantage of

0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:17.070
<v Speaker 2>elderly people, handicapped people, mentally disabled people, and extorted them

0:21:17.090 --> 0:21:22.530
<v Speaker 2>for their money. And they somehow came into a power

0:21:22.730 --> 0:21:25.050
<v Speaker 2>thing with the victim in this case, who we later

0:21:25.090 --> 0:21:29.109
<v Speaker 2>discovered was Mary Kate Sunderland, a mentally disabled woman. And

0:21:29.130 --> 0:21:31.950
<v Speaker 2>they took over her life. They kept her from her family.

0:21:32.740 --> 0:21:35.830
<v Speaker 2>They apparently, from what we understand, sold her to this

0:21:36.150 --> 0:21:41.010
<v Speaker 2>mentally deranged individual who they also extorted. They convinced this

0:21:41.070 --> 0:21:43.030
<v Speaker 2>guy to have his own arm chopped off by a

0:21:43.090 --> 0:21:46.189
<v Speaker 2>railroad track train, a train going across railroad tracks, and

0:21:46.290 --> 0:21:47.490
<v Speaker 2>sued the state of Illinois.

0:21:48.430 --> 0:21:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Wow. I mean, let's just go. I mean. That's a

0:21:53.020 --> 0:21:53.530
<v Speaker 1>lot to it.

0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:54.240
<v Speaker 2>It's a lot, right?

0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:56.060
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's insane.

0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.020
<v Speaker 2>It's just one of many twists to this case. I mean,

0:21:59.420 --> 0:22:04.250
<v Speaker 2>it really is a crazy case, a crazy story. But so, yeah,

0:22:04.390 --> 0:22:08.030
<v Speaker 2>they Gonzalo Chamizo was this guy's name. He's really mentally insane.

0:22:08.070 --> 0:22:11.060
<v Speaker 2>He's in an institution today. They convinced him to lay

0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.200
<v Speaker 2>on some tracks from what I understand, what my attorneys

0:22:13.220 --> 0:22:15.700
<v Speaker 2>told me to lay on some tracks and a train

0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.100
<v Speaker 2>ran over his arm and cut his arm off. And

0:22:18.140 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 2>in money he got from that, he gave to them

0:22:20.859 --> 0:22:24.600
<v Speaker 2>because they sold the victim to him. And then over

0:22:24.940 --> 0:22:28.920
<v Speaker 2>a certain amount of time, they starved her, beat her,

0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.850
<v Speaker 2>tortured her and extorted money out of her. So they

0:22:33.130 --> 0:22:34.770
<v Speaker 2>did this for this long period of time. The last

0:22:34.830 --> 0:22:38.070
<v Speaker 2>thing that the victim's family ever heard from their loved

0:22:38.170 --> 0:22:40.300
<v Speaker 2>one was that they don't want me to talk to you.

0:22:41.460 --> 0:22:43.200
<v Speaker 2>It was these people, they were keeping her for this

0:22:43.340 --> 0:22:48.100
<v Speaker 2>long period of time. And knowing this, learning this helped

0:22:48.220 --> 0:22:51.719
<v Speaker 2>us unravel the case. Because the whole theory of the

0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:55.170
<v Speaker 2>state when they convicted us was that me, Jason Johnson

0:22:55.210 --> 0:22:57.990
<v Speaker 2>and Jeremy Tweedy picked this random girl up off the

0:22:58.030 --> 0:23:00.740
<v Speaker 2>streets and took her to my room and we tortured

0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.240
<v Speaker 2>her and killed her in one night, dumped the body. And,

0:23:04.260 --> 0:23:07.060
<v Speaker 2>you know, they had all these, you know, different theories

0:23:07.140 --> 0:23:09.620
<v Speaker 2>on what evidence was there. Like they said the body

0:23:09.660 --> 0:23:14.220
<v Speaker 2>was burned by molten wax and all this. And years later,

0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:16.340
<v Speaker 2>after we started to put all the pieces together and

0:23:16.380 --> 0:23:19.080
<v Speaker 2>found these alternative suspects and we were in the federal courts,

0:23:20.100 --> 0:23:24.330
<v Speaker 2>the attorney general's office and the new Lake County attorney

0:23:24.369 --> 0:23:26.750
<v Speaker 2>who came in with the idea that he wants to

0:23:26.850 --> 0:23:30.280
<v Speaker 2>find the truth in all these cases, They decided to

0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:33.660
<v Speaker 2>reach out to my attorneys and say, let's reinvestigate this case.

0:23:34.900 --> 0:23:37.770
<v Speaker 2>So we did that. And what we discovered, we had

0:23:37.810 --> 0:23:42.330
<v Speaker 2>some independent forensic pathologists come in, three independent pathologists, and

0:23:42.350 --> 0:23:45.770
<v Speaker 2>they all came to the same conclusion that this person

0:23:45.810 --> 0:23:51.010
<v Speaker 2>was actually dead probably four to five days prior to

0:23:51.030 --> 0:23:54.470
<v Speaker 2>when they found the body, not the date before.

0:23:54.950 --> 0:23:56.520
<v Speaker 1>And I'm glad you brought that up because that's a

0:23:56.630 --> 0:23:58.919
<v Speaker 1>really interesting part of this case. And it explains why

0:23:58.940 --> 0:24:01.639
<v Speaker 1>it was so hard to identify her as well, right? Right. Absolutely.

0:24:01.660 --> 0:24:04.859
<v Speaker 1>Because she had obviously decomposed to a significant degree by

0:24:04.900 --> 0:24:05.240
<v Speaker 1>that time.

0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:07.179
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was more than that. I mean, part of

0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:09.960
<v Speaker 2>the reason she was unidentified was just a lack of

0:24:10.010 --> 0:24:14.090
<v Speaker 2>police work, I believe. Because they had dental records. They

0:24:14.130 --> 0:24:16.050
<v Speaker 2>just didn't follow through with things. And once they had

0:24:16.090 --> 0:24:18.850
<v Speaker 2>what they wanted, they didn't follow through with investigating these things.

0:24:19.570 --> 0:24:22.030
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how can you not identify the person from

0:24:22.050 --> 0:24:25.620
<v Speaker 2>a few counties over? when there's a missing person report

0:24:25.740 --> 0:24:28.700
<v Speaker 2>on that person? How do you not make that connection?

0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not like she was from, you know... Yeah, she.

0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Wasn't from California or Nebraska or something.

0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:46.690
<v Speaker 1>Caracas. You know, one of the things that helped lead

0:24:46.750 --> 0:24:50.370
<v Speaker 1>to your exoneration was the fact that new experts were

0:24:50.390 --> 0:24:53.070
<v Speaker 1>brought in who are actual experts. And I'm glad we're

0:24:53.090 --> 0:24:56.540
<v Speaker 1>touching on this, Jason, because we know that junk science,

0:24:56.600 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 1>bad forensics are a major cause of wrongful conviction. And

0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:03.659
<v Speaker 1>in your case, it was a different kind of junk science,

0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.679
<v Speaker 1>which is that you had an examiner, a medical examiner

0:25:06.700 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 1>or somebody like that, who testified saying that the body

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.740
<v Speaker 1>had been found within a short period of time, right? Right.

0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.429
<v Speaker 2>She was found on the 9th, December 9th of 99.

0:25:15.430 --> 0:25:18.389
<v Speaker 2>They theorized that on the 8th is the night that

0:25:18.430 --> 0:25:20.859
<v Speaker 2>we partied with her and tortured her and killed her.

0:25:22.470 --> 0:25:25.609
<v Speaker 2>And he goes on to say that we poured molten

0:25:25.650 --> 0:25:28.380
<v Speaker 2>wax on her and she was burned and all this

0:25:28.420 --> 0:25:33.200
<v Speaker 2>different stuff. But years later, when we got these new

0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:35.780
<v Speaker 2>independent forensic pathologists to look at it, all of that

0:25:35.820 --> 0:25:36.180
<v Speaker 2>was wrong.

0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:36.970
<v Speaker 1>All of it.

0:25:37.859 --> 0:25:41.590
<v Speaker 2>One, she was dead at least four days prior to

0:25:41.619 --> 0:25:44.970
<v Speaker 2>the night they found her. But it went even beyond

0:25:45.010 --> 0:25:47.629
<v Speaker 2>that into the fact that her injuries were in different

0:25:47.670 --> 0:25:51.889
<v Speaker 2>stages of healing. Showing that she had been tortured for

0:25:51.970 --> 0:25:55.449
<v Speaker 2>a long period of time, weeks, if not months. So

0:25:55.490 --> 0:25:59.350
<v Speaker 2>this wasn't something that happened in one night. And further,

0:26:00.070 --> 0:26:04.080
<v Speaker 2>the information about molten liquid and wax being poured on

0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:07.619
<v Speaker 2>her and she was burned was wrong. They said that

0:26:07.700 --> 0:26:10.700
<v Speaker 2>all that discoloration and all the sloughing of the skin

0:26:10.740 --> 0:26:14.760
<v Speaker 2>and everything that this medical examiner said was evidence of

0:26:14.820 --> 0:26:19.940
<v Speaker 2>that was actually decomposition. There was no burns. There was

0:26:19.980 --> 0:26:23.070
<v Speaker 2>none of that. He was wrong. And I learned during

0:26:23.109 --> 0:26:26.830
<v Speaker 2>my civil suit from my attorneys telling me that he

0:26:26.930 --> 0:26:31.070
<v Speaker 2>actually doesn't even have a medical license from any American

0:26:31.230 --> 0:26:35.890
<v Speaker 2>medical schools. He got it from some Dominican Republic school

0:26:35.910 --> 0:26:40.400
<v Speaker 2>that was shut down for different reasons of being fraudulent

0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:42.360
<v Speaker 2>or not up to par or whatever. So he didn't

0:26:42.380 --> 0:26:44.600
<v Speaker 2>even go to medical school here in this country.

0:26:45.590 --> 0:26:48.230
<v Speaker 1>Well, he went to a non-medical school in a foreign country.

0:26:48.270 --> 0:26:48.430
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:26:48.570 --> 0:26:51.389
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So he basically was just a yutz, like a

0:26:51.450 --> 0:26:51.869
<v Speaker 1>total yutz.

0:26:51.950 --> 0:26:56.379
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's the way my attorneys explained it to me. So, yeah.

0:26:56.440 --> 0:26:58.800
<v Speaker 1>It gets deeper and deeper. I mean, these things are

0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:04.100
<v Speaker 1>always so troubling to me because especially in a case

0:27:04.140 --> 0:27:06.990
<v Speaker 1>like this where you have a young, innocent woman who

0:27:07.050 --> 0:27:09.250
<v Speaker 1>had her life in front of her, who is taken

0:27:09.390 --> 0:27:14.000
<v Speaker 1>out and brutally beaten, maybe beaten to death. dumped in

0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:18.180
<v Speaker 1>the forest like trash. And, you know, one would think

0:27:18.260 --> 0:27:22.419
<v Speaker 1>and one would hope that the people in positions of

0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:25.699
<v Speaker 1>power would really want to find the right guy to

0:27:25.740 --> 0:27:28.770
<v Speaker 1>make sure this didn't happen, even if it's for selfish reasons, Jason, right?

0:27:28.869 --> 0:27:30.990
<v Speaker 1>Even if it's just like, because it's a small community

0:27:31.030 --> 0:27:32.350
<v Speaker 1>you lived in, right? Right.

0:27:32.390 --> 0:27:33.270
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it wasn't a big town.

0:27:33.450 --> 0:27:35.990
<v Speaker 1>Right. I always try to rationalize this, but I can't.

0:27:36.530 --> 0:27:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Because you have All the people that are involved in this,

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:41.870
<v Speaker 1>and it's usually more than one, right? It takes more

0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:44.470
<v Speaker 1>than one to sort of, you know, create this narrative

0:27:44.490 --> 0:27:46.169
<v Speaker 1>and then convicting this in a person like yourself, or

0:27:46.190 --> 0:27:50.970
<v Speaker 1>in this case, three. The actual killer, who is a sick,

0:27:51.170 --> 0:27:57.070
<v Speaker 1>depraved individual by any stretch of the imagination, is free,

0:27:57.410 --> 0:27:59.780
<v Speaker 1>stayed free, right? Once they convicted you, once they even

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:03.060
<v Speaker 1>arrested you, they stopped looking for him. And whoever he was,

0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:06.260
<v Speaker 1>he was free to prey on anyone in the community

0:28:06.280 --> 0:28:08.780
<v Speaker 1>that he wanted to, and that could have been You know,

0:28:08.859 --> 0:28:11.040
<v Speaker 1>one of these people, somebody that was loved by one

0:28:11.060 --> 0:28:14.090
<v Speaker 1>of these officers or people in the prosecutor's office or

0:28:14.130 --> 0:28:19.030
<v Speaker 1>anything else. So even in the situation where we all

0:28:19.090 --> 0:28:22.630
<v Speaker 1>find it hard to understand how someone could have the

0:28:22.970 --> 0:28:26.790
<v Speaker 1>lack of soul or empathy or whatever it is, or

0:28:26.810 --> 0:28:31.520
<v Speaker 1>just the total breakdown that allows them to feel comfortable

0:28:32.020 --> 0:28:34.220
<v Speaker 1>locking up someone who they knew was innocent or more

0:28:34.260 --> 0:28:36.780
<v Speaker 1>than one person in this case. They would want to

0:28:36.820 --> 0:28:38.800
<v Speaker 1>keep their family and their community safe, but they didn't.

0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:41.360
<v Speaker 1>That goes out the window in these cases. They get

0:28:41.380 --> 0:28:43.260
<v Speaker 1>this tunnel vision like they did in your case, and

0:28:43.280 --> 0:28:43.980
<v Speaker 1>they just go for it.

0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of that, there's a lot there,

0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:47.700
<v Speaker 2>by the way, that you just said, but I think

0:28:47.740 --> 0:28:50.510
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that is systemic. There's a systemic problem,

0:28:50.990 --> 0:28:55.030
<v Speaker 2>especially in places like Illinois. Cook County is probably the worst,

0:28:55.630 --> 0:28:58.370
<v Speaker 2>where this has been going on for so many generations

0:28:59.110 --> 0:29:01.710
<v Speaker 2>that these cops just follow in the same footsteps of

0:29:01.750 --> 0:29:04.300
<v Speaker 2>all their predecessors. I mean, you probably follow this back

0:29:04.340 --> 0:29:06.970
<v Speaker 2>to the days of Al Capone. I mean, you've got

0:29:07.050 --> 0:29:08.610
<v Speaker 2>governors in Illinois that are in jail.

0:29:08.930 --> 0:29:09.540
<v Speaker 1>Most of them.

0:29:10.620 --> 0:29:13.060
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a systemic problem that's been going on

0:29:13.100 --> 0:29:16.060
<v Speaker 2>for a long time. And if new police officers coming

0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:20.440
<v Speaker 2>into the force don't see good examples to follow, then

0:29:20.460 --> 0:29:22.420
<v Speaker 2>they're going to follow the bad examples that they see.

0:29:22.980 --> 0:29:25.820
<v Speaker 2>And that's what has gone on for so long that

0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:27.300
<v Speaker 2>that's all they know how to do. I'm not going

0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:29.260
<v Speaker 2>to say all of them are bad because they're not.

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:30.140
<v Speaker 1>No, of course not.

0:29:30.330 --> 0:29:33.290
<v Speaker 2>But a few bad apples can corrupt all of them

0:29:33.330 --> 0:29:35.390
<v Speaker 2>because nobody wants to be the guy that says, Hey,

0:29:35.410 --> 0:29:38.660
<v Speaker 2>that cop's not doing his job right because then they're Serpico, right?

0:29:39.110 --> 0:29:42.140
<v Speaker 2>And nobody wants to be. that. So it becomes this

0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:44.880
<v Speaker 2>big problem that you can't get away from. And I

0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:46.270
<v Speaker 2>don't know what the answer is to fix it.

0:29:46.640 --> 0:29:50.340
<v Speaker 1>If there's anything that stands out, and obviously it was

0:29:50.380 --> 0:29:54.520
<v Speaker 1>a miserable 15 and a half years, but One thing

0:29:54.540 --> 0:29:57.900
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious about is, was there a worst moment in

0:29:57.940 --> 0:30:00.520
<v Speaker 1>all that time in prison? And was there one moment

0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:02.740
<v Speaker 1>that actually you remember and brings you a smile?

0:30:05.140 --> 0:30:08.260
<v Speaker 2>Well, as far as prison goes, the worst moment would

0:30:08.380 --> 0:30:12.180
<v Speaker 2>probably be the ride to prison. It was the most

0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:15.760
<v Speaker 2>terrifying I could ever imagine. I mean, you're an innocent

0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:19.390
<v Speaker 2>man on a bus going to a place where you

0:30:19.470 --> 0:30:23.190
<v Speaker 2>know that everybody there is hardened criminals. Well, most people

0:30:23.210 --> 0:30:26.290
<v Speaker 2>there is hardened criminals. It's a maximum security prison. All

0:30:26.330 --> 0:30:28.610
<v Speaker 2>I could think about is, am I going to be raped?

0:30:28.650 --> 0:30:29.890
<v Speaker 2>Am I going to be murdered? Am I going to

0:30:29.910 --> 0:30:33.170
<v Speaker 2>be forced to kill somebody to survive? What is my

0:30:33.230 --> 0:30:36.410
<v Speaker 2>life going to become? I didn't know what to expect.

0:30:36.470 --> 0:30:40.760
<v Speaker 2>I was terrified. But I didn't show it. I stood tall,

0:30:40.820 --> 0:30:42.780
<v Speaker 2>stood my ground, and did what I had to do.

0:30:44.380 --> 0:30:47.020
<v Speaker 2>I met a lot of good people and showed myself

0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:50.100
<v Speaker 2>to be a stand-up guy. I got by. I survived it.

0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Was there a moment that you can remember besides obviously

0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:55.740
<v Speaker 1>the moment when the guard came to tell you that

0:30:55.770 --> 0:30:57.480
<v Speaker 1>you were free or even when your lawyer told you

0:30:57.530 --> 0:30:58.890
<v Speaker 1>that you were going to be getting out in a

0:30:58.910 --> 0:31:01.150
<v Speaker 1>few days? Was there any other moment that stands out

0:31:01.190 --> 0:31:03.750
<v Speaker 1>that you had a moment of humanity or grace or,

0:31:04.270 --> 0:31:07.190
<v Speaker 1>you know, something kind that somebody did or, you know,

0:31:07.250 --> 0:31:07.990
<v Speaker 1>anything like that?

0:31:08.350 --> 0:31:11.330
<v Speaker 2>You know, I mean, probably a lot of small things,

0:31:11.370 --> 0:31:13.910
<v Speaker 2>but I can't think of nothing like really, really major

0:31:14.430 --> 0:31:16.690
<v Speaker 2>other than, you know, every time my family would come

0:31:16.710 --> 0:31:20.310
<v Speaker 2>to see me. That was my big moments, you know.

0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:24.820
<v Speaker 2>I mean, for the most part, it was just day-to-day stuff.

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.100
<v Speaker 2>It was all the same. The monotony of it kind

0:31:28.140 --> 0:31:31.600
<v Speaker 2>of gets to you. So it's all the same stuff

0:31:31.740 --> 0:31:33.780
<v Speaker 2>over and over. I found joy in the fact that

0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:36.980
<v Speaker 2>I had some really good friends. I met some really

0:31:37.030 --> 0:31:39.290
<v Speaker 2>great people, one of which is like a brother to me.

0:31:39.930 --> 0:31:42.870
<v Speaker 2>I got to also say, man, I owe a lot

0:31:42.890 --> 0:31:45.050
<v Speaker 2>of credit to my mom and my grandmother and my family.

0:31:45.990 --> 0:31:48.230
<v Speaker 2>They were a source of strength for me as well.

0:31:48.990 --> 0:31:51.469
<v Speaker 1>All these years go by, but you spent seven and

0:31:51.490 --> 0:31:55.610
<v Speaker 1>a half years fighting a lonely battle by yourself. And

0:31:55.630 --> 0:31:58.030
<v Speaker 1>then you get another seven and a half, eight years

0:31:58.830 --> 0:32:03.500
<v Speaker 1>with the cavalry, right? And then ultimately we know what

0:32:03.540 --> 0:32:06.840
<v Speaker 1>happened because you're sitting here. Um, and, and how did

0:32:06.880 --> 0:32:09.680
<v Speaker 1>that come down? What was the moment when you first knew,

0:32:09.700 --> 0:32:12.560
<v Speaker 1>like you knew you were fucked when you were in

0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:15.260
<v Speaker 1>the courtroom? What was the moment when you knew that

0:32:15.300 --> 0:32:16.320
<v Speaker 1>you were unfucked?

0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:20.780
<v Speaker 2>Oh, wow. That's, uh, I mean, there's a couple different

0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:24.360
<v Speaker 2>areas where I started to feel hope. But I'd say

0:32:24.400 --> 0:32:26.540
<v Speaker 2>the moment when I knew things were probably going to

0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:30.850
<v Speaker 2>work out was about a few days before I was released.

0:32:31.150 --> 0:32:33.970
<v Speaker 2>My attorney called me and said that they were expecting

0:32:34.010 --> 0:32:36.750
<v Speaker 2>to have a meeting with the state's attorney and the

0:32:36.770 --> 0:32:41.160
<v Speaker 2>attorney general in Kennelly's office. That was the judge. And

0:32:41.220 --> 0:32:43.500
<v Speaker 2>that they expected a release to be signed, that they

0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:46.430
<v Speaker 2>were going to vacate my convictions. And it actually came

0:32:46.490 --> 0:32:48.930
<v Speaker 2>sooner than they expected. I was surprised. I was kind

0:32:48.950 --> 0:32:51.830
<v Speaker 2>of already packing and planning, hoping that this was going

0:32:51.870 --> 0:32:54.390
<v Speaker 2>to play out the way they thought. And I was

0:32:54.430 --> 0:32:56.850
<v Speaker 2>taking it easy, you know, taking a break and watching

0:32:56.870 --> 0:32:59.990
<v Speaker 2>a movie. And the officer comes by the cell and says, Strong,

0:33:00.020 --> 0:33:02.480
<v Speaker 2>what are you doing? Pack your shit, man. You're getting

0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:04.760
<v Speaker 2>out of here. I'm like, what? What the fuck are

0:33:04.780 --> 0:33:06.980
<v Speaker 2>you talking about? And I wasn't expecting it for, you know,

0:33:07.040 --> 0:33:09.560
<v Speaker 2>another day or two. And it just threw me, man.

0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:12.140
<v Speaker 2>I jumped down. I'm like packing all my shit as

0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:15.390
<v Speaker 2>fast as I can. All my guys are happy for me.

0:33:15.430 --> 0:33:18.830
<v Speaker 2>People are clapping, wishing me well. People that weren't in

0:33:18.850 --> 0:33:21.090
<v Speaker 2>their cells were coming up, giving me hugs. It was

0:33:21.110 --> 0:33:27.330
<v Speaker 2>a very crazy but wonderful feeling and day. Of course,

0:33:27.370 --> 0:33:29.030
<v Speaker 2>I had to wait for my mom to drive up

0:33:29.090 --> 0:33:32.910
<v Speaker 2>and pick me up. My attorneys were there. When I

0:33:32.950 --> 0:33:37.000
<v Speaker 2>walked out, I was so overwhelmed. I broke down into tears.

0:33:40.260 --> 0:33:45.260
<v Speaker 2>Just all those years of you know, staying stoic and fighting.

0:33:45.320 --> 0:33:47.360
<v Speaker 2>And it just, I was able to let it go.

0:33:47.380 --> 0:33:51.480
<v Speaker 1>That's an amazing picture that you're painting right there. And

0:33:51.600 --> 0:33:56.479
<v Speaker 1>it's actually really heartwarming to think about all the other guys,

0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:59.260
<v Speaker 1>you know, who are still facing their own demons and

0:33:59.280 --> 0:34:02.200
<v Speaker 1>their own sentences. But the fact that they were able

0:34:02.260 --> 0:34:04.660
<v Speaker 1>to take joy in your release.

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:07.390
<v Speaker 2>Well, I made a lot of, you know, good friends

0:34:07.450 --> 0:34:11.170
<v Speaker 2>in there. I mean, guilt or innocence didn't matter as

0:34:11.250 --> 0:34:14.380
<v Speaker 2>far as other people in there. you judge people by

0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:16.440
<v Speaker 2>who they were. And there's a lot of stand-up guys

0:34:16.500 --> 0:34:18.879
<v Speaker 2>in there. They're not all scum like some people would

0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:22.000
<v Speaker 2>have people believe. And I met a lot of good

0:34:22.020 --> 0:34:24.910
<v Speaker 2>people in there. There are some bad people, don't get

0:34:24.930 --> 0:34:27.690
<v Speaker 2>me wrong, but I made some good friends. I still

0:34:27.730 --> 0:34:29.650
<v Speaker 2>go back to the prison now to visit a couple guys.

0:34:30.310 --> 0:34:32.969
<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. So you're watching the movie, you get this,

0:34:33.270 --> 0:34:35.610
<v Speaker 1>you're sort of touched by an angel, right? Although it's

0:34:35.770 --> 0:34:37.430
<v Speaker 1>in the form of a prison guard in this case.

0:34:37.570 --> 0:34:39.669
<v Speaker 2>He was actually a cool prison guard. Oh, good.

0:34:39.730 --> 0:34:41.930
<v Speaker 1>Well, that adds a little something to it, too. And then...

0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:44.700
<v Speaker 1>A few hours later, whatever it is, your mom arrives.

0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.540
<v Speaker 1>She must have been breaking down too. And what time

0:34:48.580 --> 0:34:50.150
<v Speaker 1>of year was it when you got out? And what

0:34:50.190 --> 0:34:52.290
<v Speaker 1>time of day was it? Was it hot? Was it cold?

0:34:52.350 --> 0:34:54.750
<v Speaker 1>And where'd you go and what'd you do? What was

0:34:54.770 --> 0:34:56.049
<v Speaker 1>the first thing you did?

0:34:56.430 --> 0:35:01.410
<v Speaker 2>So it was May 28th, 2015. And it was a nice,

0:35:01.790 --> 0:35:04.840
<v Speaker 2>nice day out. So there was three of my attorneys

0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:07.740
<v Speaker 2>there and my mom. And we went to this nearby diner.

0:35:08.620 --> 0:35:11.500
<v Speaker 2>And I had a bacon mushroom cheeseburger, which was the

0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:16.730
<v Speaker 2>best bacon mushroom cheeseburger I've ever had. And we sat

0:35:16.770 --> 0:35:20.650
<v Speaker 2>around and talked and just enjoyed the moment and kind

0:35:20.690 --> 0:35:22.049
<v Speaker 2>of let everything else just melt away.

0:35:22.510 --> 0:35:23.390
<v Speaker 1>Were there tears?

0:35:24.650 --> 0:35:27.390
<v Speaker 2>At that point, no. It was just jubilation, man, just

0:35:27.489 --> 0:35:32.020
<v Speaker 2>telling stories and talking and being happy. The tears, most

0:35:32.060 --> 0:35:35.899
<v Speaker 2>of those were shed in the parking lot before we

0:35:36.200 --> 0:35:38.480
<v Speaker 2>went to the diner. so yeah it was just an

0:35:38.660 --> 0:35:40.919
<v Speaker 2>all happy moment you know with all of us sitting

0:35:40.940 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 2>there and eating a meal together and talking about future

0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:44.799
<v Speaker 2>dreams and hopes and.

0:35:44.739 --> 0:35:49.739
<v Speaker 1>You know so I'm thinking about this first meal so

0:35:49.780 --> 0:35:51.560
<v Speaker 1>to speak right people think about the last supper I'm

0:35:51.580 --> 0:35:54.180
<v Speaker 1>thinking about the first meal and how good does food

0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:58.690
<v Speaker 1>taste after 15 and a half years of institutional you

0:35:58.730 --> 0:36:02.810
<v Speaker 1>know slop so to speak I think there's another element

0:36:02.830 --> 0:36:05.110
<v Speaker 1>to this particular story of the first meal.

0:36:05.469 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah so uh I have this story, which is kind

0:36:09.660 --> 0:36:11.870
<v Speaker 2>of it's a growing story, if you will. When I

0:36:11.910 --> 0:36:15.430
<v Speaker 2>went to court in federal court, I had a writ

0:36:15.469 --> 0:36:18.670
<v Speaker 2>to Stateville. I originally spent all my time in Menard

0:36:18.790 --> 0:36:22.030
<v Speaker 2>and we didn't have oranges. I used to love oranges

0:36:22.050 --> 0:36:25.780
<v Speaker 2>growing up as a kid. And when I got to Stateville,

0:36:25.800 --> 0:36:29.480
<v Speaker 2>they had oranges and I got an orange and I

0:36:29.540 --> 0:36:33.840
<v Speaker 2>hadn't seen or had an orange in like eight years,

0:36:33.900 --> 0:36:36.410
<v Speaker 2>eight and a half years at this point. And so

0:36:36.450 --> 0:36:38.549
<v Speaker 2>I just looked at that orange and smelled it and

0:36:38.690 --> 0:36:41.130
<v Speaker 2>rolled it around in my hand. I savored every moment

0:36:41.150 --> 0:36:43.180
<v Speaker 2>of that orange. And most people are like, oh, you

0:36:43.219 --> 0:36:45.980
<v Speaker 2>must really love oranges. But it's not so much that.

0:36:46.420 --> 0:36:48.980
<v Speaker 2>It's the little things that everyday people take for granted

0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:52.060
<v Speaker 2>that you miss so much when it's deprived of you.

0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:53.980
<v Speaker 2>And so I ate that orange and that was the

0:36:54.180 --> 0:36:57.200
<v Speaker 2>best orange I ever ate. And when I got out,

0:36:57.280 --> 0:36:58.500
<v Speaker 2>the day I got out and we went to that

0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:01.540
<v Speaker 2>little diner and had this bacon mushroom cheeseburger, I was

0:37:01.580 --> 0:37:05.510
<v Speaker 2>telling my attorneys about this story. And the waitress overheard.

0:37:06.300 --> 0:37:08.180
<v Speaker 2>And she came over to me after I was done

0:37:08.219 --> 0:37:09.100
<v Speaker 2>and gave me an orange.

0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:10.359
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:37:10.989 --> 0:37:14.790
<v Speaker 2>And so it kind of grew. And then later, last

0:37:14.850 --> 0:37:18.190
<v Speaker 2>year in San Diego at the Innocence Network Conference, I

0:37:18.230 --> 0:37:21.610
<v Speaker 2>was telling this same story. And after I was done,

0:37:22.190 --> 0:37:23.790
<v Speaker 2>one of the girls that was there in this little

0:37:23.830 --> 0:37:25.910
<v Speaker 2>group walked over and gave me an orange. So this

0:37:25.969 --> 0:37:29.670
<v Speaker 2>is like this evolving story about an orange and its

0:37:29.750 --> 0:37:32.009
<v Speaker 2>meaning in my life and how when I was sitting

0:37:32.030 --> 0:37:34.570
<v Speaker 2>in a prison cell, it had all this weight of

0:37:35.170 --> 0:37:38.130
<v Speaker 2>You know, something so small but so powerful and meaningful.

0:37:40.190 --> 0:37:43.390
<v Speaker 1>So you drove back to Tennessee. What date was that?

0:37:43.450 --> 0:37:45.840
<v Speaker 2>May 28, 2015.

0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:50.799
<v Speaker 1>So that's pretty recent. And since then, how's life?

0:37:52.620 --> 0:37:54.739
<v Speaker 2>It's good, you know. I mean, it took me a

0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:57.600
<v Speaker 2>little while to adapt to things and want to get

0:37:57.660 --> 0:38:02.320
<v Speaker 2>back out around people. I was very uncomfortable in public.

0:38:03.610 --> 0:38:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Like if I went to a Walmart, just having people,

0:38:06.540 --> 0:38:09.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, aimlessly wandering around me kind of put me

0:38:09.380 --> 0:38:12.390
<v Speaker 2>on ease, you know, so I still had that kind of,

0:38:12.900 --> 0:38:14.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, what are you doing behind me kind of feel,

0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:17.850
<v Speaker 2>you know, like you have in prison. And so, yeah,

0:38:17.969 --> 0:38:20.830
<v Speaker 2>I was very weird about being out in public for

0:38:20.870 --> 0:38:23.430
<v Speaker 2>a while. And I almost came dangerously close to creating

0:38:23.450 --> 0:38:26.629
<v Speaker 2>my own prison at home. So I didn't want to leave.

0:38:27.430 --> 0:38:29.819
<v Speaker 2>But I forced myself out of my comfort zone and

0:38:29.860 --> 0:38:33.000
<v Speaker 2>I got out there and just started facing things and

0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:35.719
<v Speaker 2>doing things. And I still like to sit where I

0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:39.799
<v Speaker 2>can see everybody. But, you know, I get around in

0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:42.100
<v Speaker 2>public with no problem. I go to concerts now and,

0:38:42.800 --> 0:38:46.270
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm trying to become an aspiring filmmaker and

0:38:46.650 --> 0:38:48.710
<v Speaker 2>I do a TV show. So I'm getting around and

0:38:49.430 --> 0:38:52.129
<v Speaker 2>bumping elbows with people and going to conferences and doing

0:38:52.150 --> 0:38:52.649
<v Speaker 2>different things.

0:38:53.090 --> 0:38:57.649
<v Speaker 1>Jason, we have a tradition here on Wrongful Conviction, which

0:38:57.710 --> 0:39:02.589
<v Speaker 1>is that at the end of I'd like to turn

0:39:02.610 --> 0:39:04.960
<v Speaker 1>the mic over to you, the star of the show,

0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:09.080
<v Speaker 1>and just share with us anything at all that you

0:39:09.120 --> 0:39:10.560
<v Speaker 1>want to share. Okay.

0:39:11.460 --> 0:39:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, I did want to add that I'm also working

0:39:13.980 --> 0:39:17.980
<v Speaker 2>on a documentary that I'm filming about wrongful convictions. And

0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:21.370
<v Speaker 2>the purpose of this film is that I don't want

0:39:21.390 --> 0:39:24.290
<v Speaker 2>to preach to the choir anymore. I want to reach

0:39:24.370 --> 0:39:26.549
<v Speaker 2>out to more and more people and show people that

0:39:26.910 --> 0:39:29.090
<v Speaker 2>this is a bigger problem than one or two people

0:39:29.110 --> 0:39:32.120
<v Speaker 2>you might see in a documentary. I think too many

0:39:32.180 --> 0:39:36.080
<v Speaker 2>people are unaware of how big of a problem this is.

0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:39.669
<v Speaker 2>They see a story on Kurt Bloodsworth or someone else,

0:39:40.310 --> 0:39:43.230
<v Speaker 2>and they'll say, oh, poor that person, poor this person.

0:39:43.810 --> 0:39:47.090
<v Speaker 2>And I want them to understand that there are thousands

0:39:47.130 --> 0:39:49.919
<v Speaker 2>of people involved that this is probably happening to right

0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:53.380
<v Speaker 2>now that we don't even know about. America has 2.2

0:39:53.380 --> 0:39:57.239
<v Speaker 2>million people in prison. If just 1% is wrong, that's

0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:01.410
<v Speaker 2>22,000 people. That's a lot of people's lives destroyed potentially,

0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:03.690
<v Speaker 2>you know, and we need to be aware of this.

0:40:03.750 --> 0:40:05.730
<v Speaker 2>Martin Luther King said, injustice anywhere is a threat to

0:40:05.770 --> 0:40:08.610
<v Speaker 2>justice everywhere. We need to be aware of our problems

0:40:08.670 --> 0:40:11.210
<v Speaker 2>and hold people accountable when they break the laws that

0:40:11.230 --> 0:40:14.530
<v Speaker 2>they're supposed to uphold. Cops and prosecutors should not be immune.

0:40:21.210 --> 0:40:23.790
<v Speaker 1>Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

0:40:23.810 --> 0:40:27.460
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:30.100
<v Speaker 1>donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

0:40:30.140 --> 0:40:33.580
<v Speaker 1>join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

0:40:33.700 --> 0:40:38.160
<v Speaker 1>to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innocenceproject.org to learn

0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:40.890
<v Speaker 1>how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank

0:40:40.930 --> 0:40:44.350
<v Speaker 1>our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardus. The music

0:40:44.390 --> 0:40:47.790
<v Speaker 1>in the show is by three-time Oscar-nominated composer, Jay Ralph.

0:40:48.250 --> 0:40:51.509
<v Speaker 1>Be sure to follow us on Instagram at wrongfulconviction and

0:40:51.570 --> 0:40:55.670
<v Speaker 1>on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

0:40:55.690 --> 0:40:58.739
<v Speaker 1>Flom is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

0:40:58.780 --> 0:41:01.040
<v Speaker 1>association with Signal Company Number One.