WEBVTT - Weekend Law: Meta, Blue State Bias & Privacy Risks 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.239 We're going to work with President Trump to push back 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.520 on governments around the world. They're going after American companies 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.279 and pushing to censor more. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.280 Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg has been courting President Donald Trump 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:27.400 since his election, scrapping content moderation policies criticized by conservatives, 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:32.680 donating a million dollars to Trump's inauguration, promoting Republicans to 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:36.559 top roles in Meta, and visiting the White House several times. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.919 Despite all that lobbying, the historic antitrust case against Meta 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.440 that was started in the first Trump administration went to 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.600 trial this week in DC. The Federal Trade Commission is 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:53.720 trying to force METTA to divest Instagram and WhatsApp, calling 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:57.320 Zuckerberg as its first witness. Joining me is anti trust 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:01.840 expert Harry First, a professor at NYU Law School. Harry, 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.760 what's the main issue the FGC has to prove? Here? 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.480 There are a few main issues. The first issue is 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.160 the definition of the market. So the question is who 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:14.320 are Facebook's competitors? That sort of in some ways a 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:18.640 simple question. Who will consumers turn to? What sellers? If 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.319 the sellers they're looking at offers a bad deal. Usually 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.080 it's raises price, they switch to something else. We do 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.759 this all the time. So the question is who are 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:32.080 the rivals of Facebook and who do consumers switch to 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.640 if they wanted to switch. Market definition always critical issue 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.600 in any trust cases, and the first issue to resolve. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.160 The second issue is are they a monopolists in this market? 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.000 You know, do they have a large enough share of 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.480 the market. Is it hard to enter the market so 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:50.960 they can sort of have power to do what they want? 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.800 Do we see them doing the bad things that monopolists do, 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.040 which often means, you know, selling something at a high price. 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.920 Of course, Facebook says, hey, we give our thing away 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.320 for free. So what's their problem? And then the third 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.720 thing is, okay, if they are monopoly with monopoly power, 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:13.919 have they engaged in anti competitive conduct that excludes competitors 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.359 unreasonably from the market. And so that's the third thing, 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:21.400 and that's where the acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp come in. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.040 Let's start with the market definition, which was one of 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.120 the key points Zuckerberg was questioned about. So tell us 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.679 how the FTC and Meta are viewing the market. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:39.000 Facebook contends that the market, you know, whatever it was 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:43.040 maybe in twenty eleven. Now there are lots of competitors 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:48.520 and Facebook is doing things similar to particularly TikTok. So 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.239 the Pedroal Trade Commission has called the market we always 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:56.480 love these names and anti trust, the Personal Social Networking 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.600 Services market, and then they use an acronym, so you 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.560 think it's something special, the PSN market, And basically that's 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.000 friends and family. You know where Facebook started out putting 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.720 people together and creating the social network, as the name 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.079 of that movie was way back at the start. So 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.959 the Federal Trade Commission says, that's really the core of 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.880 their services, and it's not something that actually other platforms 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:26.200 except for Instagram offer, They don't really offer that sort 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.359 of friends and family network. You know, TikTok and follow people, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.520 but you know, not for keeping up on what your 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.480 high school buddies are doing. So the first question is 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:39.000 how broad is that market? So Facebook says, hey, you know, 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.480 lots of choices for consumers. They don't want to watch 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.840 reels on Facebook, they go to TikTok and vice versa, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.240 so we have to include them in the market, says Meta, 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.000 And you know that's what a lot of the argument's 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.440 going to be with data and consumer surveys and so forth. 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.560 And the analogy that the Commission has used and I 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.200 think we'll continue to use, is supermarkets. So there was 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:07.440 a famous case involving Whole Foods and an acquisition that 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:12.040 Whole Foods did, and the Federal Trade Commission called the 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:18.520 markets the PNOS market got it premium natural organic supermarkets. 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:23.480 And when Whole Foods made this acquisition of another market 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.760 like that, they said, ah, that's the market. Other supermarkets 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.280 are not in this market, you know, like stopping shopper 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.040 and so forth. And the court in which this case 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.400 is being tried, the PC Circuit, accepted that definition. And 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.880 the point is sort of a simple one. Yeah, they've 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.039 got lots of things in the supermarket, but you go 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.719 to certain supermarkets sort of a core of users for 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.480 a core of things. So you go to Whole Foods 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.480 because you like to pay high prices. Oh wait a minute, 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.320 that's wrong. You go to Whole Foods because you want 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.680 the organic, natural, premium stuff that they specialize in. And 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.120 then you buy milk, so you know, you go to 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.960 Facebook do you want to communicate with your friends and family? 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.279 And then you know, maybe you'll look at some reels 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.480 or maybe do some other things or what whatever other 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.000 fees they've got. But the core is still the friends 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.320 and family. So that's going to be the legal and 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.479 sort of factual contention that the parties are going to 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.400 litigate over during the course of this trial, and to. 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.920 The point of bad conduct or anti competitive conduct. The 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:30.040 FTC showed Zuckerberg some smoking gun emails, including one from 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.159 twenty twelve where he described the Instagram deal as a 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.480 way to neutralize a competitor. 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:37.960 Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. I could see the 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.840 lawyers looking at that going, oh my god, did you 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.039 write that. There's a good reason why that would be 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.359 called a smoking gun. You know, not every acquisition that 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:51.680 a major platform or a monopoly, let's say, makes is illegal. 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.960 It's not illegal for that reason. Firms make acquisitions all 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.120 the time. The ones that are illegal in this context 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.080 are those that are done to u out a threat 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:05.120 to the monopolists. As they said, a buyer bury strategy. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.839 They would just buy up the competitions they were worried about. 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.000 So on its face it could be neutral. Well, they 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.080 made an acquisition, what the heck? And maybe they have 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.960 some alleged good reasons, but then you read the email 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.760 in Zuckerberg says, hey, we're worried about this company, we 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:24.720 better buy it. And their effort at incorporating photographs into 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.039 Facebook and making it the kind of thing that Instagram 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.000 was doing was not going well. So they were really 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.760 being challenged by Instagram, and you know, they responded to 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.040 that challenge not by making a better product, but by 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:43.400 buying their competitor. Classic move, but not a competitive move. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.000 It's an anti competitive move, so the government says, and 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.320 so Mark Zuckerberg apparently said. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:54.120 At one point, Zuckerberg said that Facebook's feed has turned 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.520 away from family and friends and toward quote more of 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.400 a broad discovery entertainment space. 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:05.640 Right, Yeah, sure, we compete with television, Yeah, and tennis 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:08.000 and the national football. They're not going to go that far, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.000 but you know the game if you want to call 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.560 it that. But the idea is you broaden that consumers 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.760 do have lots of choices, do do different things. You know, 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:22.560 they don't only look at Facebook, and Facebook over time 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.679 has tried to bring more things within his ecosystem, within 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.840 the platform. So they're gone into virtual reality. That's why 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.800 Zuckerberg renamed the company meta because he wants the metaverse. 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.200 So true that, but that doesn't take away from the 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.760 fact that they still sell groceries. You know, they may 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.680 want to have espressos, you know, in the grocery store, 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.840 but they're not an espresso store. So you know, they 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.920 still sell their core function and that's why people put 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.280 up with all the junk pardon my French that they 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.800 see with these ads constantly. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.920 Can we read anything into the fact that Judge Bosberg 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:06.480 has sounded skeptical about the FTC's case. He dismissed the 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.280 initial case in twenty twenty one, and in November he 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:14.000 said the agency faces hard questions about whether it's claims 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.600 can hold up in the crucible of trial. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.600 Right, well, he's running the crucible like an Arthur Miller play. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:27.520 So Judge Bosburg, just from reading his opinions, is sharp, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.680 he's critical. He is not a pushover for the government, 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.440 but he's not a pushover for the defendants either. So 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.959 you know, I read this as saying he'll come out 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:43.679 with an opinion that will prove challenging for the losing 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.840 party on appeal, wherever that is. And I don't predict 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.520 that he's necessarily going to come out in favor of Facebook, frankly, 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.320 because he's been willing to accept, at least as a 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:58.480 legal matter, important arguments from the government and dismissed some 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:03.160 of Facebook's defenses. And you're not going to fool a. 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:07.680 Judge if the judge does find against Meta. How likely 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.040 is in order to divest Instagram and WhatsApp, I mean, 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.360 a breakup of that size hasn't happened since AT and 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:15.640 T forty years ago. 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.840 Well, we haven't taken on companies of this size. We 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.880 did take on Microsoft, I didn't order structural relief. The 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.160 AT and T breakup was by agreement, so it's not 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.680 a decree entered by a court after losing a case. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:37.320 So we don't do divestitures that often, you know, not never, 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.760 it does get done, but this is certainly of an 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.560 important magnitude, and you know, puts the court in a 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:49.240 difficult role of trying to separate companies that Facebook frankly 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.920 has done its best to smush together, to use the 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:58.520 technical term. So that's sort of an obvious remedy but 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.440 not necessarily going to be the one the court will accept. 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.680 But there are lots of steps before we would see 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.240 an order to separate those companies. 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.640 Mark Zuckerberg has been closing up to Trump for a 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.040 while now. Could Trump bail Meta out if it does 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:16.760 lose the case. 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.280 I guess the answer is sure. At least at this point, 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.480 he has pretty much seized control. I don't know what 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:25.680 you want to call it. A hostile takeover of the 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.720 Federal Trade Commission. He fired the two Democratic members of 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:34.839 the commission, supposed to be balanced bipartisan commission. He's fired 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.320 the two for no reason other than the Democrats. The 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.120 chair is slavish in his praise of the President. I 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.280 think that's a fair work. So yes, I think Trump 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.319 could very well order whatever he wanted to order, and 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.280 if the chairman or the other commissioners didn't want to 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.680 go along, you can just fire them. At least that's 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.079 how he sees the law. It may turn out that 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.360 that's not going to be the law. Maybe the Supreme 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.760 Court is going to not take that final step in 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:06.640 terms of ending the independence of regulatory agencies, but we'll 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.760 have to see. That's in litigation. But if he has control, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.720 then he can do that. Even before he did try 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.240 to pressure in his first administration, pressure the chair of 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.840 the Federal Trade Commission who resisted things. But now the 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.480 ability and willingness of the chairman who resists whatever the 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.680 president wants is zero. That's said, I'm not quite sure 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.520 I know or understand, and maybe the President doesn't either 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.360 what he might want and what he would pressure the 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.680 Federal Trade Commission to do. Obviously he's not pulled the 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.800 plug on this litigation, which he could have, so we'll 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:41.520 just have to see how it goes. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.160 Always a pleasure, Harry, Thank you. That's Professor Harry First 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.000 of NYU Law School. Coming up next. How the Blue 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.800 states could fight back when they're targeted. I'm June Grosso. 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:57.760 When you're listening to Bloomberg. In the past, President Trump 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:01.600 has even blamed the criminal case against him on blue 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:03.520 states being out to get him. 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.200 Can we fly over a Democrat state? 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.000 I get it, grand jury subpoena? 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:11.120 So what happened? 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:11.600 What do you do? 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:11.880 Sir? 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:13.560 They're investigated you. 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:14.600 You flew over the state. 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.040 They think something's up. So now is he targeting those 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.240 states for retribution? On April first, the Trump administration announced 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.520 the closing of five of ten regional offices of the 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.120 Department of Health and Human Services, all in blue states. 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.760 On April eighth, an executive order was aimed at the 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.760 blue states of New York, Vermont, in California for state 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:41.120 overreach with respect to climate change policies. And six of 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.440 the seven universities that have lost funding on the grounds 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.760 that they didn't adequately address anti semitism on campus are 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.040 in blue states. The seventh is in a purple state. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.520 But even if Trump is in fact targeting Blue states, 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.520 what can they do about it? Joining me is retired 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.920 federal judge Nancy Goer, a senior lecturer at Harvard Law School. 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.120 She's the co author of an article on Bloomberg Law 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:10.840 entitled Trump's Blue state bias could rip the US apart. 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:15.000 Judge tell us how President Trump has been discriminating against 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:16.080 the Blue states. 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.560 Well, the most recent one was when he closed five 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:27.560 of the ten AHHS offices, and significantly the five were 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.679 all in blue states. In addition, he has suspended the 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:37.040 funding for various kinds of programs to hospitals. But really 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:41.160 he's listening, we believe, only to the red states that 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:45.000 are begging for these two return. So you know, Katie 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.520 Britt from Alabama calls him to rein state and we 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.439 believe that he will do that. So he's basically doling 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.280 out federal funds who had vanished the red states over 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.440 the blue. And we think that that's going to be 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.600 a pattern going forward. You know, the pattern has not 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.320 been completed. We haven't seen all aspects of it, but 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.400 clearly this is what we have seen so far, particularly 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.760 the thing that happens with respect to AHHS. I mean, 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.640 why do you shut down the regional offices that do 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:18.760 the most business, the most business, namely you know, New York, Boston, Chicago, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:23.360 San Francisco, Seattle. It's really pretty transparent what's going on. 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.200 And has the Supreme Court been clear that the Constitution 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.160 requires the federal government to treat all states the same. 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.560 Well, in a decision that I mostly disagreed with, which 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.720 is the Shelby County decision, that was dealing with preclearance 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.280 requirement of the Voting Rights Act. Preclearance was a requirement 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.800 that really reflected the discrimination against black people that had 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.080 occurred in certain states in the South, that was documented, 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.760 that was well known. The Supreme Court eliminated preclearance, which 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.120 basically was a situation in which the government would review 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.160 any changes in voting rights procedures in those states to 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.600 make certain that it didn't continue to disadvantage black people 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.320 or didn't re disadvantage black people. And what happened was 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.600 the court eliminated that preclearance on the theory that there 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.480 was a requirement of equal treatment of all states. And 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.720 so if that is a principle reaffirms now only a 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.960 few years ago, then Trump simply does not have the 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:25.160 right to discriminate against blue states in favor of red. 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:29.640 He can't use the federal spending power to disadvantage blue 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.160 states at the expense of red. 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.680 In the article, you talk about tax dollars, and a 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:38.280 recent report from the Rockefeller Institute of Government shows that 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.400 only thirteen states send more money to the federal government 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.040 than they receive, and ten of those are Blue states. 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.320 Every state is an employer and is oftentimes the major 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.800 employer in any given state, and as with any employer, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.680 the state has to withhold money for federal taxes. And 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.920 in the case of the blue states that we mention, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.040 it is a substantial amount of money. In fact, as 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.040 we note in the article, the blue states are net donors. 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.800 In other words, they give more money to the federal 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.480 government and they get in the form of services. Now, 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.600 it would be illegal, and I have to say that 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:20.640 quite candidly, for the Blue states to withhold federal dollars. 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.160 In other words, the withholding that you do on your taxes, 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.960 you withhold for the purpose of turning it over to 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.120 the federal government at the appropriate time. This would be 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:34.120 illegal to withhold it, frankly, until the government makes the 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.600 allocations among the states equal. It would certainly be illegal. 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.600 But it is leverage, what we say, and the piece 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.760 is that the government, if they continue to favor Red 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:48.400 states over blue, will be acting illegally and unconstitutionally. And 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.440 so we speculate that this is something the Blue states 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.160 could do, although it is illegal. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.480 And California has a ballot issue where voters are already 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:58.520 considering this. 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:03.320 So California Balid initiative goes even further. The Baalid initiative 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.840 is to secede from the Union, which is extraordinary. It's 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.160 asking the voters to endorse the idea of secession. It's 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:15.160 not clear what legal authority that would have, but that's 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.480 certainly what California voters are indulging in. Again, you know, 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.879 both withholding federal tax dollars and obviously, seceding from the 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:26.000 Union are patently illegal. But the notion here is the 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:31.360 government is behaving illegally. Were they to punish Massachusetts and California, 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.480 for example, in favor of the Red States. The government 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.760 is behaving blatantly illegally. There's no question. When the government 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.639 behaves illegally, citizens have to decide what to do. Citizens 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.640 have to decide what the appropriate response is. And make 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:50.400 no mistake, this government is behaving illegally on numbers of fronts, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.480 as numbers of federal courts have found. 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.160 Have we reached a constitutional crisis yet? 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.159 I don't think there's any doubt that we are in 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.239 a constitutional crisis, whatever the name you put on it, 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:02.320 I don't think that there's any doubt. So far. There 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.240 isn't a situation, you know, with a Southern politician now 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.159 barring federal truths from coming into Mississippi or Georgia or 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.080 Alabama or anything like that. That's not what we have 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.320 seen yet. What we have seen, as with for example, 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.040 the most recent case of mister Abrago Garcia, this is 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:23.879 an individual who is wrongly deported to El Salvador. What 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.760 we have seen is the government effectively ignoring a Supreme 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:33.239 Court decision. We've seen the government effectively ignoring decisions of 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.439 the lower courts. We've seen sophistry men outright lying. The 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.280 sophistry is describing the Supreme Court's decision in a way 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.720 which is patently false, patently false. You know, they saying 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.000 things like the Supreme Court in dealing with the Abrago 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.960 Garcia case didn't really demand that the government do anything, 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:55.200 but only they can passively make certain that if El 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.120 Salvador releases a man he could come into the countries. 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.679 I mean, that's absolutely not the Supreme Court said. It's 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.840 not at all what the Supreme Court said. So that's 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.760 sort of really sophistry in dealing with Supreme Court decisions. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.560 And then there's been outright ignoring and disobedience of them. 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:15.600 You know, in the cases involving the funding freezes on 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.119 government funds across the country, a court will require that 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:23.159 the funding be restored, and the government is just ignoring it, 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.200 just ignoring it, requiring you know, courts to essentially get 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.800 to the point to the moment of contempt. So I 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.480 don't think there's any question we're in a constitutional crisis 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.119 when the government can lie as they did in the 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.440 Oval office, in the meeting with El Salvador's who Cale 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.520 about again, this gentleman Albrego Garcia, when the government can 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.800 lie flat out that he had been found to be 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:53.240 an MS thirteen member, not true anywhere that the government 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:57.240 can lie about its arrangements with with Cale. I don't 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.880 think there's any doubt that we're in a constitutional crisis. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.160 And not only did the Attorney General misinterpret the Supreme 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:07.760 Court's decision, but Trump advisor Stephen Miller actually said that 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:12.120 the Supreme Court had ruled unanimously for the Trump administration. 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:12.880 Right. 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.760 Again, this is not even close to truth. When the 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.000 Supreme Court says the government has to facilitate its return, 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.000 and clearly in the context of a decision that is 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.880 about how there was no right to deport him. When 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.440 they say it has to facilitate his return, that doesn't 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.120 mean well, El Salvador, if you wish to send him, 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.800 we will allow him in. It's clear that it meant 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.280 more than that. It meant affirmative steps to right or wrong. 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.000 The government was responsible for a wrong and they had 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.600 to take affirmative steps to write it. I mean also 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.879 the notion that this is a foreign policy issue is 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.679 pure poppycock. This is a commercial issue. This is not 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:58.320 like returning Brittany Griner from Russia, which was a matter 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:02.840 of delicate diplomatic negation. This is about a commercial contract 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.800 between a two big dictator and the United States dealing 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.960 with a contract for six million dollars to receive deportees 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.360 from the United States. And clearly the United States has 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.280 rights under the contract and the United States has power. 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.439 If in the meeting, before the public meeting, Trump had 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.080 said to Bouquele, return this guy, it would have been over. 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.240 It would have been over. And the fact that they 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.800 don't even think that this is a wrong that needs 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:33.800 to be righted is stunning. 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.920 The Fourth Circuit agrees with you. It denied an emergency 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:42.160 motion by the Trump administration to halt a federal judge's 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.760 effort to facilitate Garcia's return, saying the Justice Department's conduct 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.480 were shocking to American sense of liberty. Is this the 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:55.879 most serious constitutional crisis we've faced since the Civil War? 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:59.320 I think that that's true. It's one thing to have, 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.320 you know, the pictures of the Southern States defying a 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:09.720 constitutional directive to desegregate, requiring troops to be sent to 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:14.000 southern states to enforce the prohibition against segregation. That was 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:19.280 a confrontation as between a unified federal government and particular states. 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.639 This is a confrontation between the federal government as a 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.280 whole individuals, and a confrontation between the federal government as 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.280 a whole and the states. It's about to involve almost 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:35.080 every aspect of our lives. The federal government is asserting 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.840 control over universities. The federal government is seeking to control 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:42.160 who is in the country and who is not, seeking 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.760 to control who is a citizen, and flouting the Constitution 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.080 in numbers of ways. So in both the scope of 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.840 the disobedience the scope of the violations by the federal 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.080 government on every front. So yes, I would call it 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.880 the most serious constitutional crisis in the Civil War. 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:03.680 And capitulation by some of the country's largest law firms. 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:06.280 Well, I think we're beginning to see something different. And 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:09.280 let me make a more general points. So, the strength 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.440 of the United States is not just in representative government, 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:17.439 not just having Congress and the president elected by the people, 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.040 not just having local governments. The strength of the United 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:26.520 States is also having civil society, namely organizations like universities, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.080 and law firms that are independent of the government. They 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.639 stand for principles that the government can't control. So what 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.480 Trump has done is he's taken over the government we 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.320 elected him. That was the product of the voters, namely 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:42.760 that he has a House of Representatives, the Senate, and 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:45.879 the Lighthouse. But the judges are supposed to be independent, 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:48.800 and the judges have been holding the judges have reflected 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:52.000 that independence. What he is doing is trying to dismantle 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:55.280 civil society. And the way you dismantle civil society is 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.600