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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where when the

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Speaker 1: world feels like a pile of manure, you got to

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Speaker 1: find the flowers grown out of the shit.

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Speaker 2: Today's guests aren't those flowers.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, August twenty seventh, and on today's show, will

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Speaker 1: be skipping the need to know and jumping straight into

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Speaker 1: my conversation with the founder of athlete Ally, Hudson Taylor

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Speaker 1: and University of Washington rower Killian Mullen. They joined me

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Speaker 1: to discuss what life is like right now for trans

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Speaker 1: college athletes, the current landscape of policies governing trans athletes,

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Speaker 1: and how athlete allies mission has changed because of those policies,

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Speaker 1: Plus how Killian balance is rowing school and trying to

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Speaker 1: represent his community and best practices for allies of the

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ community. That conversation's coming up right after this.

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Speaker 2: Joining us now.

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Speaker 1: He's the founder of athlete Ally, whose mission is to

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Speaker 1: help every athlete act as an ally and ensure every

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Speaker 1: LGBTQIA plus person is welcome and safe in sports. A

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Speaker 1: theater major and a former three time All American wrestler,

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Speaker 1: he secured the most pins and the most wins in

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Speaker 1: the history of Collegiate Wrestling at the University of Maryland

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Speaker 1: and is ranked among the top five pinners in NCAA

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Speaker 1: wrestling history. A former assistant coach at Columbia University, he

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Speaker 1: dabbles and beekeeping, puppet making, and jiu jitsu, and he

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Speaker 1: loves to share lessons learned from fables. It's Hudson, Taylor High, Hudson.

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Speaker 3: Hey, how's it going. Thanks for having me good.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us. Also with us.

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Speaker 1: He competes on the women's rowing team at the University

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Speaker 1: of Washington, where he's helped votes to multiple top ten

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Speaker 1: NCUBA championship finishes. The president of the athlete Ally Chapter

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Speaker 1: at UW, he was named an Illinois State Scholar in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two and Most Promising Novice for the Chicago

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Speaker 1: Rowing Foundation in twenty twenty. He's in the Arctic Studies

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Speaker 1: Program at UW. Enjoys making bagels out of Greek yogurt,

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Speaker 1: learning about fungal ecosystems, hiking, mushroom hunting, and listening to

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Speaker 1: pod Save the World. In Nine Inch Nails, It's Killian Mullen.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Killian Hi.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me so.

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Speaker 1: My first concert ever was Nine Inch Nails but I

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Speaker 1: prefer Pod save America and love it or leave it.

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Speaker 2: But I am still a friend of the Pod like you,

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Speaker 2: So we have a lot in common. Awesome, Hudson. Let's

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Speaker 2: start by you telling me why and when you started

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Speaker 2: athlete ally.

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Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, So I started athlete ally way back in

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Speaker 3: twenty eleven. As you said at the outset, I was

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Speaker 3: a theater kid. So I was in two very different cultures,

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Speaker 3: one where I had a lot of LGBTQ friends in

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Speaker 3: the theater department and had a lot of teammates using

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Speaker 3: homophobic and kind of sexist language. And the juxtaposition of

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Speaker 3: those two worlds really kind of caught me by surprise.

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Speaker 3: It made me kind of take a step back and say, well,

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Speaker 3: wait a second. Like sports culture doesn't define me, I

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Speaker 3: define it. I can choose how I want to treat people,

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Speaker 3: what type of experience we want to give our teammates.

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Speaker 3: And so my senior season at Maryland, I was, you know,

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Speaker 3: one of the top ring wrestlers in my weight class.

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Speaker 3: I decided to wear an LGBTQ equality sticker on my

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Speaker 3: headgear to show support, and I didn't really think much

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Speaker 3: of it. It was I just thought it would look cool,

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Speaker 3: but the choice to wear that sticker fundamentally has changed

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Speaker 3: my life. A lot of teammates, we've gotten a lot

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Speaker 3: of heated debates about it. But then one of my

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Speaker 3: coaches pulled me aside. It was like, Hudson, would you

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Speaker 3: be willing to do an interview about why you wore

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Speaker 3: the sticker? I was like, heck, yeah, sure. And at

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Speaker 3: the time, you know, I was such an idealistic college

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Speaker 3: kid that I was like, Okay, change doesn't happen unless

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Speaker 3: we start dialogues and have conversations. And so when I

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Speaker 3: did this interview, I asked them to share my email

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Speaker 3: address with the articles like let's debate, And about two

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Speaker 3: days later, I opened up my inbox and I had

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Speaker 3: over two thousand emails from closeted athletes from across the country,

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Speaker 3: from you know, siblings of LGBTQ, young people, parents, And

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Speaker 3: I'm just reading these emails like bawling. Because my entire

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Speaker 3: athletic career has been nothing but positive. I never had

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Speaker 3: to question or fear how my teammates might treat me

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Speaker 3: if they found out an aspect of who I was.

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Speaker 3: And it was just so clear that that same experience

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Speaker 3: wasn't being afforded to the LGBTQ community. And if my

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Speaker 3: decision to wear a sticker for two seconds could have

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Speaker 3: that kind of an impact, imagine if I had been

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Speaker 3: a football player or an entire team on an entire

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Speaker 3: league taking a stand. So that was really the genesis

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Speaker 3: of athlete. Ally that there's never been a successful social

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Speaker 3: justice movement for minority group without the support of the majority,

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Speaker 3: and it's kind of incumbent upon all of us to

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Speaker 3: use whatever power and privilege we have to help dismantle

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Speaker 3: systems of oppression.

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Speaker 1: You know, I read that you come from a long

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Speaker 1: line of Christian missionaries, and I wonder how you think

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Speaker 1: that informed your perspective on LGBTQ plus issues.

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Speaker 3: It's really interesting. You know, I grew up in fellowship

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Speaker 3: of Christian Athletes. I was going to all those meetings

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Speaker 3: as a kid, and I because of wrestling, I ended

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Speaker 3: up going to boarding school, a school called Blair Academy,

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Speaker 3: which was like the number one ranked wrestling high school

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Speaker 3: in the country. And so I moved out at fifteen,

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Speaker 3: really and I never went back home after that age.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there's a lot about the faith of

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Speaker 3: my upbringing that I'm really grateful for a lot of

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Speaker 3: like the quote unquote like New Testament teachings that I,

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Speaker 3: you know, how you treat people and how you act

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Speaker 3: in service of others are really core to who I am.

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Speaker 3: But then there was also this really like dark side

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Speaker 3: of the faith that I was raised with that was

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Speaker 3: so judgmental and so what felt like not in keeping

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Speaker 3: with the teachings of Jesus or the Bible. And it

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Speaker 3: was really boarding school and just being away from home

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Speaker 3: and really starting to ask questions for myself about about

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Speaker 3: my own faith, about my own perspective, about my place

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Speaker 3: in the world, and how I wanted to treat people.

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Speaker 3: That really set me on this journey and so I

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Speaker 3: moved away from religion for a really long time. It

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Speaker 3: was this thing that the sort of like door that

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Speaker 3: closed in my life as an adult. Now I'm a Quaker,

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Speaker 3: So I now I attend Quaker meeting and that's a

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Speaker 3: really beautiful and kind of wonderful, wonderful part of my

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Speaker 3: spiritual life now. But but yeah, it's a part of

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Speaker 3: the journey. But I think that in a lot of

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Speaker 3: faith spaces treat the LGBTQ community with a clenched fist

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Speaker 3: rather than no open hand, and I think that that's

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Speaker 3: absolutely that's a shame killing.

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Speaker 1: I want to switch over to you because I want

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Speaker 1: to first before we get into your involvement with athlete all,

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Speaker 1: I ask how you got started in rowing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so my mom actually rowed for the Purdue University

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Speaker 4: club when she was at university and really loved her

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Speaker 4: experience with rowing. And I had been playing volleyball up

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Speaker 4: to the point that I was fifteen, and there was

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Speaker 4: a flyer for a local club that my mom happened

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Speaker 4: to cross on Facebook, I think, and she was like, Oh,

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Speaker 4: I feel like you would really love this sport, enjoy

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Speaker 4: this sport. So I went down to Saint Charles, which

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Speaker 4: was about like fifteen minutes away from where I lived,

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Speaker 4: to this like barn alpaca farm sort of area that

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Speaker 4: really only had two boats at the time, and we

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Speaker 4: didn't really have enough people to even facilitate rowing in

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Speaker 4: an eight so sometimes you would have to row a

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Speaker 4: set people and just hope for the best on our

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Speaker 4: way down the river. And that's kind of where I

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Speaker 4: started my slightly humble beginnings before moving over to Chicago

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Speaker 4: Rowing Foundation.

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Speaker 1: And for those who don't know, Saint Charles Batavia kind

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Speaker 1: of where Killing's from is about an hour and a

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Speaker 1: half or so west of Chicago. So when you get

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Speaker 1: into rowing in Chicago, are you making that kind of

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Speaker 1: trip every single time when you want to compete or practice?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? So I would have practice about six days a week,

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Speaker 4: and I feel like the worst commute out of all

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Speaker 4: of it was Saturday mornings, so I'd usually have to

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Speaker 4: leave the house at like four thirty in the morning.

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Speaker 4: I just hope that traffic was light because it was

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Speaker 4: that early.

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Speaker 2: So that is wild, That's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you get invested in rowing, you're doing it

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Speaker 1: at a really high level in college, and when you

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Speaker 1: start looking around for where you want to compete in college,

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Speaker 1: what were some of the factors as far as the team,

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Speaker 1: the environment, everything else.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I have a little bit of a unique

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Speaker 4: experience when it comes to that. Specifically with my experience

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Speaker 4: in high school. The part of Illinois that I was

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Speaker 4: in wasn't the most accepting. It's pretty conservative, the further

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Speaker 4: outside of the city of Chicago that you get, And

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Speaker 4: because of that, I had a family that wasn't the

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Speaker 4: most accepting of me either, So I was basically forced

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Speaker 4: into being on a women's team and I was told

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Speaker 4: from basically the first year that I started the sport

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Speaker 4: that it had to be a way for me to

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Speaker 4: get into university, and I had to stay in the

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Speaker 4: sport or I would be sent somewhere and basically converted

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Speaker 4: in like this makeshift sort of way.

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Speaker 1: So somewhere that theory had conversion therapy for queer people

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Speaker 1: or trans people or Okay.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and because that's not illegal, it's illegal in Illinois.

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Speaker 4: It's been illegal in Illinois for minors since twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 4: And that was kind of how I found my way

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Speaker 4: into trying to become a more competitive athlete, trying to

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Speaker 4: get into college somewhere through women's rowing. Was because of

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Speaker 4: this constant fear of if I didn't do well enough,

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Speaker 4: I knew what my other option was, and that option

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Speaker 4: just wasn't an option to me. Like I couldn't succumb

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Speaker 4: to that because I knew who I was and I

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Speaker 4: knew that there was no denying that, and I knew

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Speaker 4: that going somewhere like that and trying to deny my

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Speaker 4: personhood would have landed me in a hole that I

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Speaker 4: knew I couldn't get myself out of. Whereas on the

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Speaker 4: other side, of things. I felt like the community that

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Speaker 4: I found in women's rowing was very friendly to queer

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Speaker 4: people in general. And I was lucky enough to be

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Speaker 4: at a club where being trands, especially because it was

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Speaker 4: in the city of Chicago, was a lot easier than

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Speaker 4: being trans in my hometown in Matavia, Illinois.

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Speaker 2: So you were open with your team?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was very open with my team, and I

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Speaker 4: was very lucky to be surrounded by an incredibly supportive

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Speaker 4: environment there that definitely greatly juxtaposed the environment that I

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Speaker 4: was in when I was at home.

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Speaker 1: So it's such a perfect example of what we talk

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Speaker 1: about all the time, and in the way that sports

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Speaker 1: can create community and space for folks, and in your

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Speaker 1: ca in particular, space that you weren't able to find at.

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Speaker 2: Home or in your hometown.

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Speaker 1: So, as you are looking at college opportunities, what did

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Speaker 1: you think your options were to continue competing while also

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Speaker 1: being true to your identity as a man.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I had to be careful about the type of

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Speaker 4: community that I kind of went to. Even if a

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Speaker 4: college did want to recruit me, I had to make

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Speaker 4: sure that I was heavily researching all these places to

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Speaker 4: ensure that I put myself in a space where I

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Speaker 4: felt like I was safe to be myself and to

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Speaker 4: be trans specifically, And I did come across a couple

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Speaker 4: of coaches and people and communities that were not as

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Speaker 4: accepting or didn't really understand what my situation was, and

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Speaker 4: that I felt the need to educate a lot of

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Speaker 4: those people. And I came across instances where, you know,

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Speaker 4: I had people telling me like, oh, you can't compete

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Speaker 4: with distaster, Like you can't compete while taking testosterone though

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Speaker 4: you know that right, and of course I know that

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Speaker 4: that's a I feel like that's a rule that anybody knows.

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Speaker 4: You can't take hormones if you're on a women's team.

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Speaker 4: And I would come across people who were also like, oh, like,

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Speaker 4: what does that mean you're attracted to?

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Speaker 1: Then?

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Speaker 4: Like I would have coaches like I've had a coach

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Speaker 4: ask me that question before, which is just like what

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Speaker 4: type of coach would ask a seventeen year old what

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Speaker 4: they're attracted to while they're getting recruited to a college.

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Speaker 4: And it's just it's one of those things where I

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Speaker 4: felt like I just had to be super playcative and

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Speaker 4: super understanding of where people were coming from all the time.

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Speaker 4: And I also had to kind of do that while

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Speaker 4: looking out for myself, while making sure that even if

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Speaker 4: a coach was wonderful and kind and inclusive, that the

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Speaker 4: community that they were based out of was also kind

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Speaker 4: of at least a little bit similar. And I actually

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Speaker 4: started my first year and a half at University of

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Speaker 4: Virginia before transferring in the University of Washington, and I,

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Speaker 4: by no means think that going to University of Virginia

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Speaker 4: was a mistake at all. I mean, I've met some

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Speaker 4: of my best friends who will probably my best friends

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Speaker 4: the rest of my life there, but it just ultimately

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Speaker 4: wasn't a community space that I felt entirely welcomed in.

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Speaker 4: Charltsville is often seen as this kind of liberal haven

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Speaker 4: within the bigger, broader state of Virginia, and I think

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Speaker 4: that that honestly needs to be challenged because, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I even have a lot of privilege saying this as

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Speaker 4: a white person, but there's still a lot of blatant racism, misogyny, homophobia,

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Speaker 4: transphobia in that community that still needs to be addressed,

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Speaker 4: even if it is seen as this kind of liberal

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Speaker 4: sphere because it's a university.

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Speaker 1: Did you always know you wanted to compete in women's

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Speaker 1: rowing at the collegiate level or was there a process

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Speaker 1: for you making that decision?

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Speaker 4: Kind Of, as I mentioned before, I didn't really have

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Speaker 4: any choice but to row for a women's team just

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Speaker 4: because of the terms that I was rowing under when

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Speaker 4: I was in high school.

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Speaker 2: Terms made by your parents.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, terms made by yeah, my parents, and the terms

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Speaker 4: that I had to follow were I I literally signed

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Speaker 4: a contract when I was sixteen detailing that I had

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Speaker 4: to get recruited to a women's rowing team if I

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Speaker 4: did not want to be converted or denied my identity

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Speaker 4: or sent somewhere to be converted. So I was basically like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is the choice is kind of already made for me.

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Speaker 4: I guess I don't have to think about it that

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Speaker 4: much more. And I just was like, Okay, I guess

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Speaker 4: that means I'm going to be on a women's rowing team.

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Speaker 4: And I mean, even as I've gotten into college and

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Speaker 4: as i've you know, been able to speak with my

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Speaker 4: parents who made those terms for me, it's and I've

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Speaker 4: been able to you know, open up her mind a

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Speaker 4: lot and open up you know, our relationship and kind

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Speaker 4: of like make it better, like the relationship between my

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Speaker 4: mother and I, who's the person who made these terms

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Speaker 4: for me, is a lot better than it used to be.

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Speaker 4: Even then, I feel like I've built such a community

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Speaker 4: for myself in women's sports specifically, and in women's rowing specifically,

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Speaker 4: that it just wouldn't make sense at this point for

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Speaker 4: me to try to switch over to a men this

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Speaker 4: rowing team, even if I was to take hormones, or

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Speaker 4: if I was to take further steps with my physical

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Speaker 4: or medical side of my transition.

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Speaker 2: We got to take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: When we come back more with Hudson and Killian stick around. Hudson,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us about the current landscape of policies

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Speaker 1: governing transathletes? So for situations like Killians or for other transathletes,

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Speaker 1: there's been a lot of changes in just the last

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Speaker 1: few months. So what does it look like right now

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Speaker 1: for trans athletes at the NCAA level.

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Speaker 3: It's been a really challenging, depressing, disheartening sort of series

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Speaker 3: of legislative decisions through the K through twelve space, now

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Speaker 3: the NCAA space, the USOPC. You know, the doors for

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Speaker 3: at least trans women to compete in sports consistent with

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Speaker 3: their gender identity have closed almost entirely. You know, as

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Speaker 3: an organization where we've been fighting and advocating for transa

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Speaker 3: athlete to play sports consistent with their gender identity, been

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Speaker 3: pushing for more inclusive and fair policies, and I would say,

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Speaker 3: starting back in twenty eighteen, you started to see this

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Speaker 3: wave of policies restricting or rescinding that ability, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: you know, at the time, a lot of those policies

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Speaker 3: were based off of the most up to date sort

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Speaker 3: of medical consensus of what eligibility requirements needed to be

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Speaker 3: met in order for an athlete to compete in a

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Speaker 3: way that was safe and fair consistent with their gender identity.

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Speaker 3: The research hasn't changed, but the political pressure has and

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Speaker 3: now with this administration and the sort of ways in

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Speaker 3: which they are kind of using pressure and politics on

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Speaker 3: an institution like the NC double A, which you know

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Speaker 3: has a lot of nil and other legal battles that

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Speaker 3: they are still trying to come out on top of.

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Speaker 3: The unfortunate and most convenient thing is to throw trans

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Speaker 3: athletes under the bus, and that's unfortunately the place that

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Speaker 3: we we find ourselves in at the NC DOUBLEA level.

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Speaker 1: I think these changes have probably impacted how athlete ally

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Speaker 1: does the work. Before it was about sort of creating

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Speaker 1: an inclusive environment around probably language and acceptance and everything else.

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Speaker 1: Now there's full on bands to competition. So how have

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Speaker 1: you seen your efforts have to change, Hudson, It's.

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Speaker 3: A really big challenge. I think that, you know, we

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Speaker 3: had a lot, We had a blueprint that was really

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Speaker 3: successful for a long time. Right, we organize athletes. We

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Speaker 3: we looked at the spaces around sport policy and practice

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Speaker 3: that were less inclusive than we wanted it to be.

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Speaker 3: We'd organize athletes to speak in one voice about what

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Speaker 3: the solution was or what change we wanted to see,

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Speaker 3: and more often than not we were successful in that. Right,

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Speaker 3: We've we helped change the Olympic charter, increase number of

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Speaker 3: women in FIFA governance, move championships over anti LGBTQ laws.

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Speaker 3: But then, you know, as the political headwinds have shifted,

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Speaker 3: we too have to kind of rethink and reevaluate how

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Speaker 3: we are approaching support for the trans community in particular,

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Speaker 3: but I would say LGBTQ at advocacy even more generally.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm deeply concerned at the right word shift

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Speaker 3: of young people, especially young men. I think that that

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Speaker 3: is painting a very scary picture for the future of

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Speaker 3: progressive politics. And I think that sport is and can

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Speaker 3: be and should be one of the spaces where we

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Speaker 3: can hopefully use the pnciples and values of sport to

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Speaker 3: educate people around you know, the human dignity and liberty

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Speaker 3: of every person. So you know how we're changing things

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Speaker 3: that we're doing differently. I think first, as an organization,

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Speaker 3: we are trying to push for what I would call

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Speaker 3: freedom of information. I think that in a lot of

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Speaker 3: advocacy spaces there are barriers to education. Right there's pressure

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Speaker 3: for me as a nonprofit to like charge more people

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Speaker 3: to be educated. But the truth is is that the

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Speaker 3: people with the most power and influence are the least informed.

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Speaker 3: And if we want to change culture, we have to

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Speaker 3: be really sort of coming from a place of abundance

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Speaker 3: about the education and about the experience of trans and

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Speaker 3: gender diverse athletes. So really trying to push forward with

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Speaker 3: as much information and access to information as possible. On

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Speaker 3: the athlete ally side, we have our big event is

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Speaker 3: called the Athlete Activism Summit. We're trying to make that

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Speaker 3: free and accessible for every athlete who wants to be

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Speaker 3: with us, so trying to lift any barrier or burden

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Speaker 3: that a person might have to accessing information. Number two,

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Speaker 3: I think is around sort of what I would call

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Speaker 3: connection and solidarity. Right, we host monthly meetings for our

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Speaker 3: chapters and any athletes who want to find that supportive space,

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Speaker 3: maybe they don't have it on their team or maybe

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Speaker 3: they don't have that in their athletic community. We want

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Speaker 3: to be building and maintaining those intentionally safe and supportive spaces.

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Speaker 3: And then second, I think we are trying to think

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Speaker 3: more intersectionally about the coalitions that we should be forging.

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Speaker 3: I think that you know, when I look at a

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Speaker 3: lot of social justice issues, there's like this magic number

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Speaker 3: of sixty percent support. If we can get to a

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Speaker 3: place where there's the public opinion is in favor of

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Speaker 3: trans inclusion or LGBTQ rights, I think that the policy

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Speaker 3: wins become much more sustainable. And I think in the

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Speaker 3: absence of that public support, it's sort of on thin

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Speaker 3: ice whether or not we even if we were successful

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Speaker 3: in getting better policies pass at the NCAA or the

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Speaker 3: Olympic or the Paralympic level, without that public support, it

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Speaker 3: really runs the risk of being rolled backwards right. We

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Speaker 3: saw this with abortion right. So I think not enough

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Speaker 3: organizations have engaged in that sort of hearts and mind's work.

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Speaker 3: And I think for us, it's really how how do

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Speaker 3: we build a bigger, more abundant coalition of people whose

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Speaker 3: rights are also being threatened, but we want to work

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Speaker 3: together in solidarity with one another to prevent the bad

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Speaker 3: things from happening.

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Speaker 1: I think the fear though, is that there was a

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Speaker 1: preponderance of people in this country who believed in choice,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't matter when the efforts of a certain

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Speaker 1: number of political people with power united in an effort

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Speaker 1: to take them away. And so I agree with you

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Speaker 1: that that public support is extremely important. But also if

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Speaker 1: the policymakers have enough power to push things through that

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Speaker 1: aren't popular with everybody, it doesn't really matter if everyone

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Speaker 1: is in opposition unless the next time at the polls

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Speaker 1: they make their voices heard, pushing back on the folks

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Speaker 1: who have voted in opposition to like what the majority

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Speaker 1: of the country believes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's no question that the political deck

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Speaker 3: is stacked against people who care about progressive issues. I

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Speaker 3: think what I'm hungry for or searching for is a

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Speaker 3: like a politics of calling people in more, having more

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Speaker 3: conversation more. I think that even on questions of choice

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Speaker 3: or bodily autonomy, we don't listen to learn. We listen

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Speaker 3: to like respond and reload and win the argument. And

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Speaker 3: that's like, that's like very burdensome work, that's very difficult work.

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Speaker 3: But I think, you know, on the field of play

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Speaker 3: in a locker room in sport, that's a space where

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Speaker 3: that type of approach I think that that type of

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Speaker 3: bridge building approach can really succeed. And then the last

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Speaker 3: thing that I was just going to say on strategy

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Speaker 3: is really also I think for us on the policy front,

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Speaker 3: looking towards what I would call like athletes civil liberties

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Speaker 3: as our next like frontier of campaigns and fights that

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Speaker 3: we want to fight. So, you know, athletes at every

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Speaker 3: level of sports still lack a lot of structural power.

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Speaker 3: Right athletes don't have a binding say in the policies

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Speaker 3: governing their experience. And I think that if we can

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Speaker 3: you know, lean in on athletes having a voice and

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Speaker 3: a say over policies governing them, if we can protect

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Speaker 3: and defend athletes freedom of speech or right to protest

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Speaker 3: gestures demonstrations, all those things. I think that it becomes

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Speaker 3: a lot harder for the rights of our most minoritized

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Speaker 3: athletes to be stripped away from them.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to talk about calling in instead

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Speaker 1: of calling out, and particularly in the sports space. But

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Speaker 1: first I wanted to ask you, Killy, and if you've noticed,

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Speaker 1: I think this is going to be your senior year

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Speaker 1: coming up. Yes, So, over the course of the years

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Speaker 1: that you've been participating in collegiate sport, how have you

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Speaker 1: noticed the environment changing for you and what it's like

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Speaker 1: to be a trans athlete on a college campus.

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Speaker 4: I think that like the biggest thing that I've noticed,

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Speaker 4: especially in this past year alone with the policy changes

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Speaker 4: that have been made, is like, right, I'm one of

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Speaker 4: the very few trans athletes who is still eligible and

438
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 4: allowed to play their sport. Right, And it's extremely isolating

439
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 4: because it's like you have the rest of your community

440
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 4: that you want to be fighting for and advocating for

441
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 4: and doing anything that you can for and you're still

442
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 4: in this organization that vehemently opposes them and opposes their existence.

443
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 4: And it's like, right, where do you strike a balance

444
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 4: between Okay, I'm going to participate in this sport. I'm

445
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 4: going to do everything I can to be the best

446
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 4: that I can in this sport and represent my community

447
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 4: while also supporting that community, while participating in an organization

448
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 4: that chooses to do something like that. And I think

449
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 4: that over the past years, especially just on college campuses

450
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 4: in general, I've you know, seen more aggressive opinions towards

451
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 4: trans people being illustrated. I mean, in the past year,

452
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 4: we you know, I've gone to two kind of talkers

453
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 4: that came on a campus. I don't know if you know.

454
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm sure you know who Allygains is. But

455
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 4: when I was at UVA, I also went to a

456
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 4: talk that was given by Abigail Shreer, who has a

457
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 4: pretty strongly worded book specifically on the topic of trans

458
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 4: men who she was. She was there talking about that book,

459
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 4: and the narrative around transmend right was basically that they

460
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 4: were poisoning femininity, that they were causing misogyny, that they

461
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 4: deserved to be basically terminated for who they were, And

462
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 4: I think that that's disgusting. As a transman, I think

463
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 4: that's just disgusting and allowing voices like that to be

464
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 4: on a college campus who are quite literally preaching for

465
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 4: the end of a subset of people is disgusting, and

466
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 4: then having seeing that happen at a more like southern

467
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 4: campus kind of where you would expect something like that

468
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 4: to happen, but then two years later, seeing that happen

469
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 4: on a campus in Seattle at University of Washington, where

470
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 4: you wouldn't necessarily expect an event or a speaker like

471
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 4: that to be sponsored, seeing Riley Gaines show up and

472
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 4: seeing all the people there supporting her and wanting to

473
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 4: spread her message, and then getting wrapped up into that

474
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 4: by having I mean I've had in the past year

475
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, because nobody seems to care about women's rowing,

476
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 4: I guess unless there's a trans athlete participating in it,

477
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 4: which is ridiculous by itself alone. But I've had like

478
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 4: a couple articles written about me, some of them mentioned

479
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 4: Riley Gaines or Riley Gaines spoke about me in it,

480
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 4: and it's just kind of one of those things where

481
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 4: it's confusing because these people opposed me being in a

482
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 4: women's sport as somebody who was born female because I

483
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 4: am trans, which is really just like.

484
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna ask you about that, because it's a

485
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: very no win situation. I when I was researching for this,

486
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: I saw your name pop up in some of the

487
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: very worst places that love to attack me and other

488
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: people who have progressive voices as well.

489
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: So you're not alone in that.

490
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: But the idea that they were like criticizing you even

491
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: though this is what they're always demanding. They are demanding

492
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: that people play alongside their gender at birth and not

493
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: their identity, and yet when you do that, they have

494
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: a criticism for that as well. So do you have

495
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: to decide this is for me and this is my

496
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: choice and this is what I'm doing, and sort of

497
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: block out those voices because I think to your point,

498
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: there is this need to listen to other groups. So

499
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean we need to sponsor or promote voices

500
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: that are about hate, that are not about listening to

501
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: the other side, that are not about being educated, that

502
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: are not about the science, that are instead simply about

503
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: wanting to eradicate a group of people that they disagree with.

504
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: I think that we need to say that flat out

505
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: when we say call in and have conversations, we don't

506
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: mean people like Riley Gaines, who is uninterested in facts

507
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: and science and is solely about lining her own pockets

508
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: because she's not talented enough at anything else and has

509
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: seemed to figure out how to grift on this person

510
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: for the rest of her life. But for you personally,

511
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: how much do you want to pay attention to that

512
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: and understand the space and how much do you want

513
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: to say, fuck them, I'm gonna do me.

514
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, I mean, I think there's a fine line

515
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 4: that you have to balance, right, because I mean I've

516
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 4: read those articles before. I mean, I've had coverage on

517
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 4: Fox News before. I've also read that, and I think

518
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 4: that it's like you kind of have to walk the

519
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 4: line of like, right, I'm not gonna let this offend me.

520
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 4: I'm gonna laugh at it and use it as fuel

521
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 4: for my own fire and then move the fuck on,

522
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 4: because that's just the way that you have to be

523
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,239
Speaker 4: about some things. And I think that, like, especially just

524
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 4: reading some of the arguments that were in I think

525
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 4: it was like this article that was.

526
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 5: We don't need to do with their name ever, sorry,

527
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 5: but like they they made some arguments that were just

528
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 5: completely baseless in science, and we're saying that I was

529
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 5: still somehow cheating by being on a woman's team, though

530
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 5: that was my sex assigned at birth, and it's like right,

531
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 5: Like I.

532
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 4: Can look at that and laugh, and then I can

533
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 4: also look at the fact that you know, there were

534
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 4: people in the comments saying that I was a lesbian

535
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 4: in denial. I can, you know, my boyfriend and I

536
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 4: look at that and we laugh because it's like that's

537
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 4: not you know, like right, no, it's well.

538
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: That basic and fundamental lack of understanding, I think is

539
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: part of the problem, and it's why there's such a

540
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: push to ban books, to stop education, to stop the

541
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: kind of conversations that we're having right now, because the

542
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: more you understand other people, the less likely you are

543
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: to try to change them into something you want them

544
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: to be instead of who they are.

545
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: And I think that comes back, Hudson, to your.

546
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: Work and your group, And I wonder if you have

547
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: examples of what you were talking about before, this idea

548
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: of can we have a conversation about it, give someone

549
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: grace to where they are, meet them where they are

550
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: in terms of their understanding, and then potentially even change

551
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: their mind. Do you have a favorite story of seeing

552
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: someone's mind change or come around because you offer them

553
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: the chance to talk instead of berating them for where

554
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: they are.

555
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think, I mean, there are many examples

556
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: of education, educational sessions that we provided athletes who have

557
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 3: entered into a space that we've helped cultivate or create,

558
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: and you know, we've heard firsthand how that exposure does

559
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 3: change somebody. I think there's like this paradox in or

560
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: there's like a false way that we sometimes think about sports,

561
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: but then also a false way that I think we

562
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: can sometimes think about movements in that I think a

563
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 3: lot of times we're told that what it means to

564
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: be a great athlete is defined by how well you win,

565
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 3: And I think that really to be a great athlete

566
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 3: is defined by how what you do with losing, what

567
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: you do with difficulty, what you do with that adversity.

568
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: And I think similarly in our movements, we sometimes I think,

569
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 3: define our movements based off of our areas of political alignment.

570
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 3: It's like, if you agree with me on all these issues,

571
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: then we're on the same team. But I think it's

572
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: actually what is the spectrum of disagreement that we allow

573
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 3: to exist while still seeing each other's humanity, while still

574
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: coming back to the to the team or to the

575
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: table and talking about it. And so I think the

576
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: first so like thing that I've seen in my work

577
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 3: is just trying to like continue to push my the

578
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: comfort and the courage I guess of keeping keeping a

579
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 3: conversation open. That is hard and its difficult and is

580
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 3: frustrating because you know, I think the second that we

581
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: close that door, the game is over, right, Like one

582
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 3: of my biggest things that I struggle with a lot,

583
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: and at least the trans inclusion work is some of

584
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: the biggest, uh sort of enemies of trans inclusion. We're

585
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 3: also some of the most vocal pro gender equity advocates

586
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: and people who I was in coalition with and conversation

587
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: with and working shoulder to shoulder with. And so I

588
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: struggle with where we are now and obviously to walk

589
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: to the point that we've made of like, if somebody's

590
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: made it their entire identity and life's work to like

591
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: deny the dignity of an existence of the trans community,

592
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 3: then that's not a fruitful or valuable conversation. But those

593
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: people didn't start that way, right, They started somewhere else.

594
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: And I think I'm trying to do better at I

595
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: don't know. I think the thing when I think about allyship.

596
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: You can do it in three ways as an individual,

597
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: in interpersonal relationships and structurally. And I think that individually,

598
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: one of the things that we can give each other

599
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: more is the invitation to talk, the invitation to ask questions,

600
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: tell me why you feel the way you feel, tell

601
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: me what you think about that, and so you know,

602
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 3: like anything in sport, in life, everything is a muscle

603
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 3: and if we don't use it, it doesn't become as

604
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: effective as we want it to be. So I don't know.

605
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: I think at athlete AUTI to be frank, we haven't

606
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: developed these tools to the extent that i'd like. I

607
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 3: think that for a long time it was easier to

608
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: just say, well, we disagree, so you're unfriended, you're unfollowed,

609
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: we're no longer going to talk. And I think where

610
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: when I look get where we are politically and culturally,

611
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 3: I am trying to build those muscles better to have

612
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: that invitation to talk.

613
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think this topic came up recently

614
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: when Simone Biles did her best to do something she

615
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: doesn't normally do, which is talk about a really difficult

616
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: topic and put herself out there, and then unfortunately it

617
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: was as much the people on the side of transinclusion,

618
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: that we're putting her through a purity test for not

619
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: knowing exactly what to say, and how that probably scared

620
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: her out of ever talking about it again. And that

621
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: is a person with a massive platform and voice. And

622
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: I even ended up getting attacked for saying, Hey, I

623
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: don't think that's the way we should do this. These

624
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: purity tests that the progressive side force everyone into just

625
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: continues to dilute our ranks and offers us less of

626
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: a unified front when we're going up against a group

627
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: of people that have completely abandoned shame, that are willing

628
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: to defend literally anything on their quote unquote side, while

629
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: we continue to split and bifurcate our into a million

630
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: different groups who all have slightly different opinions that mostly

631
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: still revolve around inclusion and kindness and grace and all

632
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: the other things.

633
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: And so I know that's easy for me to.

634
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: Say as a cis white straight woman, but I have

635
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: based the issues of being a woman in this world.

636
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: So there is a piece of me that understands on

637
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: fairness and wants more fairness for everyone, but understands the

638
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: way we're trying to go about getting it isn't working

639
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: anymore because unfortunately, the percentage of people who have aligned

640
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: with that far right bullshit is too big now to

641
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: simply say, fine, you're all out of our house.

642
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: We're not going to talk to you anymore.

643
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: Then they just go hang out with each other, continue

644
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: to spread lies, continue to stay uneducated, and then pull

645
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: more people into their ranks by having conversations with them

646
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: that we're not willing to have with folks because we've already.

647
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: Excluded them from from our group. I mean, we could

648
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: talk about this forever.

649
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: I want to get to another couple quick things though,

650
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: before before we let you go. I remember Hudson and

651
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: you mentioned it earlier in the interview. There was this

652
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: big group of massive corporations and leagues, the NBA, the NCAA,

653
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: the ACC, all working together with athlete ally. In the

654
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 1: wake of the anti LGBTQ law HB two, they moved

655
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: competitions out of North Carolina. They said, we're not giving

656
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: you our money, we're not giving you our events because

657
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: we do not believe in this. We cannot get that

658
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: same response to current recent anti LGBTQ law. Why do

659
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: you think right now we cannot rally groups around that,

660
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: and how can we get back to a time when

661
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 1: we are forcing leagues and major corporations to feel some

662
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: sort of loss or threat if they don't care about

663
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: the way that these laws are affecting people's lives.

664
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 3: It's a really big question. So prior to twenty eighteen,

665
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 3: when we look at the landscape of anti LGBTQ legislation,

666
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 3: the majority of the biggest threats were really relegated to

667
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 3: like five states, and so the movement, the LGBTQ movement

668
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: was very sick successful at stopping bad bills from becoming

669
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 3: law because we were well organized and well resourced enough

670
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 3: to do so. You know, out of every one hundred

671
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: dollars that is donated to a from a foundation in

672
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: the United States to a nonprofit, less than a dollar

673
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 3: goes to an LGBTQ serving organization. So across the world

674
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 3: of philanthropy, LGBTQ work is vastly underfunded. But up until

675
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 3: about twenty eighteen, we were pretty dang successful in stopping

676
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: the worst things from becoming law. Then, you know, I

677
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 3: think when we look at twenty eighteen to now, there

678
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: was sort of this full court press of anti LGBTQ legislation.

679
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 3: You instead of having five states, you had thirty five

680
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 3: forty states all introducing similar either anti trans or medical

681
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 3: care bans or what's in the library antidi policies. I mean,

682
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 3: the list is very, very long. It's very doesn't just

683
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: impact the LGBTQQ unity, but our collective resources got so

684
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 3: very strained and those things started to poke through. And

685
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 3: I think the hard part on the advocacy side of

686
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: things is at the time we could point to the

687
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 3: lead in the conversation with leagues, we could say, hey,

688
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: HB two is an outlier, right, this is going to

689
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 3: be the worst in the country, And as a result,

690
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: you have a responsibility to your constituents to not do

691
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 3: business here, to not reward this the level of discrimination

692
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: with your megasporting event. Now it's forty states are in

693
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: that same camp or you know, depending on the policy

694
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 3: that you think is matters most to the people that

695
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: you work for or work with. And so my answer

696
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 3: this question is probably not a very popular good answer,

697
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 3: but I think my mantra now is like liberation lives locally.

698
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: There's a lot in politics in the world that I

699
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 3: can't control. There's a lot of policy that I can't unwind,

700
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 3: but I can put forth a way of organizing, a

701
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: way of educating that centers care between individuals at the

702
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 3: team level, at the church level, at the school level.

703
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 3: And I think that if we can collectively kind of

704
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 3: build those muscles around calling in and listening and dialogue,

705
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 3: I think that then those legislative battles like people will

706
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 3: find their bravery and finding their courage to challenge it

707
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 3: and not let the rights of people just be stripped

708
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 3: away from them.

709
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: And we hear that a lot just in general and politics,

710
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: is how much work is done at the local level,

711
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: whether that's the election of judges or people in different spaces,

712
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: and eventually that is what impacts policy at the highest levels.

713
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 2: It's just harder to see.

714
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: But I think right now, especially, we're all sort of

715
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: feeling like the only thing we can do is try

716
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: to affect as much as we can in our own

717
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: lives because it feels completely untenable to somehow be able

718
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: to impact the awful stuff that's going on at the

719
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: very highest levels. Kill This is kind of a bigger question,

720
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: but do you have advice for folks who want to

721
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: be allies but aren't sure if they're up to date

722
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: on the right language or the right pronouns, or maybe

723
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: they don't know if they're accidentally contributing to creating insensitive

724
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: or intolerant spaces. Are there resources, are their practices? Are

725
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: there ways that you think the average person who maybe

726
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: doesn't know a trans person or isn't super up to

727
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: date can like make sure that they're doing their best

728
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 1: to make the spaces there and better.

729
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I would you know if you have access,

730
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 4: if you are friends with somebody who is trans. I

731
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 4: feel like having those open and tough conversations is honestly

732
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 4: the best pathway towards education that you can get. I've

733
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 4: had to educate a lot of my friends and family

734
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 4: members on these sorts of issues. But if you don't

735
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 4: have access to that, I feel like we're in a

736
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 4: modern age now where there's no excuse not to just

737
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 4: look it up. Like if you're confused about something, if

738
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 4: you want to understand something a little bit more and

739
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 4: you want to come from a place of truly understanding,

740
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 4: rather than just reading the big news headlines and taking

741
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 4: the first thing that you see and being like, well

742
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 4: that the entire trans community altogether, just look it up

743
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 4: and like, actually do your research if you're somebody who's

744
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 4: actually interested in wanting to learn more, and I mean

745
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 4: there's great resources like you can start somewhere as simple

746
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 4: as the Human Rights Campaign going to their website seeing

747
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 4: what they have to offer about trans people. You can

748
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 4: go to your local library if maybe you don't have

749
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 4: access to Internet, and see if your librarian might have

750
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 4: some books on trans people or books on LGBTQ plus

751
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 4: people in general. There's just I feel like there's so

752
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 4: many pathways to education on this particular topic, and I

753
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 4: think that right now especially, it's important to take advantage

754
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 4: of them while we still have them. Because another thing

755
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 4: that's been coming out recently too is that, I mean,

756
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 4: you see from National Parks all the way from New

757
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 4: York to most recently Yosemite, people being stripped away of

758
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 4: their right to either say that their trans or advocate

759
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 4: for the trans community. More broadly, and you're seeing websites

760
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 4: United States health organizations literally having to take down what

761
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 4: it means to be trans off of their website. So

762
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 4: I think that trying to educate yourself now with the

763
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 4: resources that we still have available while we do is

764
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 4: super important.

765
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: Your dog agrees, I could hear I'm chiming in throughout

766
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: your dog was like snaps preach. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

767
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with that more. And I do think

768
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: because I've heard people, whether it's people of color, LGBTQ

769
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: plus often say like we're burdened with teaching you and

770
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 1: all the other stuff, that it's also worth asking people

771
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 1: in your life. I'm sure you get asked this a lot,

772
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: but do you mind if I ask you some questions?

773
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: I want to know more?

774
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: Or I know you're probably tired of explaining this, but

775
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: is it okay? I feel most comfortable asking you to

776
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: help me understand, and if they say no, then go

777
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: find somewhere else to learn. But hopefully people will be

778
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: open to wanting to talk to because I understand both

779
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: sides of that coin one thousand percent. On the one hand,

780
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: you want to say ask me, I'm the one who knows,

781
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: and you also want to be like, stop asking me

782
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: and go.

783
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: Figure it out for yourself.

784
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm not around to educate you all the time, but yes,

785
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: the best thing to do is go right to the

786
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: source and talk to people who have the lived experience. Gosh,

787
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: I could talk to you guys forever, but we are

788
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: way past time, so thank you so much for the time.

789
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: Thank you to the Dog for chiming in and well

790
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: of course keep sending people to athlete Ally, to donate,

791
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: to read, to support, to learn about the policy changes

792
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: you guys have helped enact, to learn about the ways

793
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: that you've tried to educate folks on how to best

794
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: be in their teams and their leagues and everything else.

795
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 2: And we'll just keep.

796
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: Pushing for that education to be available to everyone. So

797
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: thanks so much for the time.

798
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 4: Thanks for having us, Thank you for having us.

799
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Hudson and Killian for joining us.

800
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: We got to take another break when we come back.

801
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Friend of the Show, Representative Lorii Trehan's still doing the

802
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: good work.

803
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: I'll tell you about it in a jiff. Welcome back slices.

804
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to

805
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too, So here's our

806
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: good game play of the day. You might remember Congressman

807
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: Lorii Trehan joining the show a few months to discuss

808
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: her work defending Title nine and gender equality in college sports. Well,

809
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 1: she's still fighting the good fight, and she needs our

810
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 1: help to push back against those trying to enact policy

811
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: that will completely fail women athletes. The legislation that Republicans

812
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: are pushing forward, called the Score Act, written by Jim Jordan,

813
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: Brett Guthrie, and Tim Wahlberg, doesn't work to counteract Title

814
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: nine loopholes that deny thousands of women roster spots, doesn't

815
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: address how violations of Title nine in the House Settlement

816
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: will be remedied, doesn't ensure women can fully participate in

817
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: and benefit from the fast growing nil marketplace, and per

818
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: Laurie's team, the bill could also overturn vital state laws

819
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: unrelated to college sports, including the Michigan law that was

820
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: used to prosecute Larry Nassar. Laurie and the Democratic Women's

821
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: Caucus fought the bill as it moved through committee, but

822
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: Republicans still advanced it through two committees without a single

823
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: Democratic vote and with one Republican opposing, and are now

824
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: expected to bring it to the House floor of the

825
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: week of September fifteenth. Laurie needs top women athletes, coaches,

826
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: and high level representatives for women in sport to show

827
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: up in person or virtually for a press conference the

828
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: second week of September to expose the Score Acts failure

829
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 1: to protect and strengthen women's sports. So if you're interested

830
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: in getting involved, please shoot us an email and we'll

831
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: connect you to Lori's team. Hit us up on email,

832
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: good game at wondermedianetwork dot com, or you can leave

833
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: us a voicemail at eight seven two two oh four

834
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe. Rate and review slaces.

835
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: It's easy watch fighting back with information and support, rating

836
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: one out of one piece of good news review. It's

837
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 1: hard not to get discouraged right now, but there are

838
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: some great examples of folks fighting back, making a difference,

839
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: and ensuring that people can still get the information, help

840
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: and support that they need. Here in Illinois, for example,

841
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: Governor JB. Pritzker just announced a first of its kind

842
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: legal hotline for LGBTQ plus folks called Illinois Pride Connect,

843
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: wrote Pritzker on social quote, as the only state in

844
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 1: the nation that will provide free legal advice to protect

845
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ plus community. Will help fight ignorance with information

846
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: and cruelty with compassion. End quote yes to more of

847
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: that now, it's your turn.

848
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: Rate and review.

849
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, y'ell, see you Tomorrow, Good Game Hudson

850
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:18,959
Speaker 1: and Killian, Good Game, Athlete, Ally You, Jim Jordan. Good

851
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production

852
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can

853
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

854
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our

855
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producers

856
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.

857
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and

858
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones. Production assistance

859
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: from Avery Loftis and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain