Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on,
Speaker 1: the podcast brought to you by BNF. Today, we're here
Speaker 1: to talk about the existing and emerging technology solutions to
Speaker 1: address water stress. According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,
Speaker 1: anywhere between one point five to two point five billion
Speaker 1: people live in areas exposed to water stress today. This
Speaker 1: is forecasted to rise to three billion by twenty fifty,
Speaker 1: and that's only if warming is limited to two degrees
Speaker 1: c by that point. Humans are made up of roughly
Speaker 1: sixty percent water, so to say that its essential would
Speaker 1: be an understatement. And we live on an increasingly thirsty planet,
Speaker 1: not just due to population growth and demands from agriculture,
Speaker 1: but also owing to increasing demand from industry and data centers. Yes,
Speaker 1: the same data centers that are needed to power AI technology.
Speaker 1: So where do we get more water? From energy intensive
Speaker 1: desalination plants to reducing water loss, to increasing water reuse
Speaker 1: and recycling. We'll get into the technology side of this
Speaker 1: essential building block for life on this planet. I'm joined
Speaker 1: today by b and EF technology and innovation analyst Stephanie Diaz,
Speaker 1: who shares findings from her recently released research note titled
Speaker 1: tech Radar Water supply use and Treatment. Bn EF clients
Speaker 1: will be able to find this at BNOF go on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal or at BNF dot com. All right,
Speaker 1: let's get to talking about water. Stephanie, thank you for
Speaker 1: joining today.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Dana.
Speaker 1: So we're here to talk about water today, and we
Speaker 1: know that this has so many important applications in addition
Speaker 1: to what we drink and agriculture. But actually, as we
Speaker 1: so often talk about in the show, the energy transition
Speaker 1: is actually quite dependent upon water. We'll get to the
Speaker 1: demand side part of it momentarily, but as we tend
Speaker 1: to kick off many of these shows, let's start with
Speaker 1: some definitions and then also as we think about the
Speaker 1: fact that with climate change there is disruption to traditional
Speaker 1: precipitation patterns, what is the definition of water stress?
Speaker 2: Sure, but let's start by actually talking about water itself, right,
Speaker 2: because water is really ubiquitous in everyday life. It's really
Speaker 2: an amazing thing for a modern miracle that we can
Speaker 2: just go to the tap and turn on our water.
Speaker 2: But really what that ends up meaning in practice is
Speaker 2: that we use an estimated four trillion cubic meters of
Speaker 2: water annually. And most of this is coming from things
Speaker 2: like rainfall, snowmells, river runoff, and we collect it from
Speaker 2: surface water and groundwater, so think lakes, rivers, and aquifers.
Speaker 2: These together account for ninety two percent of human water use,
Speaker 2: and all of this water gets used in a couple
Speaker 2: of different ways. About three quarters of that goes into
Speaker 2: the agriculture sector, so think crops, livestock, aquaculture, and then
Speaker 2: the remainder gets used for industrial or municipal purposes. So
Speaker 2: when we talk about water stress, what we're actually talking
Speaker 2: about is does the water demand outpace the supply. This
Speaker 2: is a really localized definition because water is a really
Speaker 2: regional thing. But what you should think about is between
Speaker 2: the water that gets used for human purposes, the water
Speaker 2: that needs to be there to in order to replenish rivers,
Speaker 2: in order to you know, water forests, be used by
Speaker 2: the environment. All of that, does that water demand surpass
Speaker 2: the amount of water that is available in that area
Speaker 2: for things like precipitation, groundwater, all of that. We are
Speaker 2: increasingly seeing that water stress is becoming a pertinent issue
Speaker 2: around the world. So today about one point five to
Speaker 2: two point five billion people live in areas exposed to
Speaker 2: water scarcity, and under a two degrees celsius scenario of
Speaker 2: global warming that's expected to rise to approximately three billion
Speaker 2: people by twenty fifty, demand for fresh water could be
Speaker 2: up to forty percent greater than supply by twenty thirty,
Speaker 2: according to the Global Commission on the Economics of Water.
Speaker 1: So now let's pivot to the demand side part of things,
Speaker 1: which has to do with this wider question of you know,
Speaker 1: water for a lot of the end uses that you know,
Speaker 1: we do traditionally talk about here at BNF, Can you
Speaker 1: talk about some of the sectors that maybe many we've
Speaker 1: thought of or some that we haven't thought of, that
Speaker 1: are really heavily dependent upon this natural resource.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there are so many examples. Let's talk agriculture.
Speaker 2: It's kind of a given that water is important for agriculture,
Speaker 2: but we often don't think about this implicit water trade
Speaker 2: that is happening in crop production. So, just to give
Speaker 2: an example, Fondamonte is an agriculture company and it grows
Speaker 2: alfalfa in the US state of Arizona, and that alfalfa
Speaker 2: is then harvested and shipped back to Saudi Arabia to
Speaker 2: feed cattle there. The company turned to Arizona because of
Speaker 2: water scarcity issues in Saudi Arabia and the ability to
Speaker 2: grow you around in Arizona, but Arizona itself is a
Speaker 2: hot desert state. Water also has implications for the energy sector.
Speaker 2: French company EDF had to reduce output of several of
Speaker 2: its nuclear power plants in twenty twenty two as heat
Speaker 2: waves made the river water that's usually used to cool
Speaker 2: those nuclear power plants too warm. They had to reduce
Speaker 2: their output as a result. It has impacts on mining
Speaker 2: because water is used in querying and milling, and the
Speaker 2: amount of water used for those processes can put stress
Speaker 2: on local water supplies. In Mexico, Group of Mexicos, Buena
Speaker 2: Vista del Cobre Mine dealt with protests in June twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four as the company was issued permits entitling it
Speaker 2: to more than fifty billion liters of water annually, which
Speaker 2: is fifty seven percent of that local watershed's volume, even
Speaker 2: though that area is experiencing a regional drought. You have
Speaker 2: examples across you know, thermal power plants that use up
Speaker 2: to three thousand liters of water per megawat hour for
Speaker 2: cooling the steel industry consumes up to one hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy five liters of water per ton of steel produce.
Speaker 2: Water ends up being used throughout so many of the
Speaker 2: different industries that we cover here at BENF, So.
Speaker 1: We could go in so many different directions when we're
Speaker 1: thinking about end uses and demand side for water. But
Speaker 1: let's focus in on one that has been incredibly buzzy lately,
Speaker 1: and that is data centers and the growth of data
Speaker 1: centers in some respects to this rise in AI applications
Speaker 1: that are really leading to a lot more demand for
Speaker 1: electricity in order to keep these data centers cool. Can
Speaker 1: you talk about how water is connected to this burgeoning
Speaker 1: space right now?
Speaker 2: Data centers and AI are actually surprisingly dependent on water
Speaker 2: in two ways. So let's talk about the first one,
Speaker 2: which is cooling. So think of your laptop. When you
Speaker 2: run it for a long period of time, it gets warm, right.
Speaker 2: Data centers do the same thing. They get warm over time,
Speaker 2: and water based cooling systems are often used in order
Speaker 2: to take that heat away from the data centers and
Speaker 2: keep them cool. This is a really energy efficient way
Speaker 2: to do this, but it does mean that a lot
Speaker 2: of water can get consumed in Virginia's Data Center Alley,
Speaker 2: which is just outside of Washington, DC. Companies like Amazon
Speaker 2: and Microsoft used one point nine billion gallons of water
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, a sixty four percent increase since
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. The second way in which data centers and
Speaker 2: AI are dependent on water is through semiconductors themselves. So
Speaker 2: the chips that go into these data centers. In order
Speaker 2: to create these chips, you need really pure water, like
Speaker 2: ultra pure water. This is water that is so pure
Speaker 2: that it would actually kill us humans if we drink it.
Speaker 2: But this is the kind of extremely pure water that
Speaker 2: is necessary for the chips because they're working on the
Speaker 2: scale of nanometers right. In order to produce these sort
Speaker 2: of chips, you need access to really clean water, and
Speaker 2: as a result, they end up consuming a lot of water.
Speaker 2: According to the World Economic Forum, forty percent of semiconductor
Speaker 2: manufacturing facilities are in watersheds expected to face severe water
Speaker 2: stress between twenty thirty and twenty forty. And now I
Speaker 2: want you to add to this another twenty four to
Speaker 2: forty percent of facilities that are currently under constructed, and
Speaker 2: then another forty percent of facilities that are currently planned
Speaker 2: and underway that will also be located in severe water
Speaker 2: stress areas. So when taken altogether, you can really see
Speaker 2: how data centers ai big technique to be thinking more
Speaker 2: about their water usage. A great example of this is
Speaker 2: how in Chile recently a court partially reversed approval for
Speaker 2: a two hundred million dollars Google data center projects, citing
Speaker 2: that the company needed to go back and reconsider its
Speaker 2: water use. This is after the data center had already
Speaker 2: announced that it was going to switch from water based
Speaker 2: cooling to the less water intensive want more energy intensive
Speaker 2: air based cooling, and we've seen companies like Microsoft and
Speaker 2: AWS commit to being water positive and aiming to replenish
Speaker 2: more water than they use by twenty thirty.
Speaker 1: Now, I think a lot of people understand that water
Speaker 1: needs to be processed before it can be used, especially
Speaker 1: well depending upon where it came from. But can you
Speaker 1: just actually explain what ultra pure water is and why
Speaker 1: it's deadly for humans.
Speaker 2: So water needs to be processed to the level of
Speaker 2: purity required for what people what it's being used for.
Speaker 2: So take humans. We need to drink clean water, right,
Speaker 2: but we actually don't need to drink perfectly pure water
Speaker 2: because there's actually useful stuff in water. Water contains minerals
Speaker 2: that are one of the ways we get them as
Speaker 2: part of like a nutritional basis. If you drink ultra
Speaker 2: pure water, it's too pure for our bodies and so
Speaker 2: then our red blood cells end up rupturing because the
Speaker 2: water wants to like even out the concentration.
Speaker 1: I know this is not related to the energy system,
Speaker 1: but I just I had to understand that. Okay. Another
Speaker 1: form of water, since we're using this term very colloquially,
Speaker 1: is salt water, and desalination is a technology that has
Speaker 1: been used in order to remove salt from water to
Speaker 1: make it to the level of purity that we can
Speaker 1: use it for other use cases. Can you talk about
Speaker 1: desalination whether or not that for regions that may be
Speaker 1: experiencing water stress, is desalination something that is becoming a
Speaker 1: more popular technology.
Speaker 2: Desalination is currently responsible for producing about two percent of
Speaker 2: our global water global freshwater, that is, and while it's
Speaker 2: only two percent globally, in water stress regions like the
Speaker 2: Middle East, it is much higher than that. Saudi Arabia,
Speaker 2: for example, relies on desalination for seventy percent of its freshwater,
Speaker 2: and Kuwait relies on it for ninety percent of its
Speaker 2: fresh water. So desalination can play a massive rule in
Speaker 2: specific regions based on how localized that water stress is.
Speaker 2: Desalination itself is a really mature technology. We've been doing
Speaker 2: this for a long time now. There are currently about
Speaker 2: fifteen thousand existing facilities globally that produce ninety five million
Speaker 2: cubic meters of fresh water per day, but this is
Speaker 2: expected to grow over time. The International Energy Agency expects
Speaker 2: that energy demand for desalination is set to double by
Speaker 2: twenty thirty from twenty twenty three levels, reaching nearly four
Speaker 2: thousand Petta Rules of energy by the end of the decade.
Speaker 2: Just to give a sense of scale, that's roughly the
Speaker 2: energy consumption of Poland in twenty twenty three. So desalination
Speaker 2: is a mature technology and it is definitely widely used
Speaker 2: in some parts of the world, but not in all
Speaker 2: of the world.
Speaker 1: Are there innovations being made in the desalination space or
Speaker 1: is it just becoming more prevalent.
Speaker 2: Technologies for desalination are getting better. We've seen, for example,
Speaker 2: that originally desalination was mostly done through multi stage flash
Speaker 2: and multi effect distillation, which are both thermal methods of
Speaker 2: removing salt fur water. Basically, the idea there is you
Speaker 2: take water salty water, you evaporate it, and the salt
Speaker 2: gets left behind, but the water becomes a gas. You
Speaker 2: collect the gas and then you condense it so that
Speaker 2: you have liquid water. Again. This is a really good
Speaker 2: way of creating clean water, but it's also really energy intensive,
Speaker 2: and so we saw the switch from these thermal methods
Speaker 2: to using reverse osmosis instead. Reverse osmosis accounts for more
Speaker 2: than two thirds of desalination capacity around the world today,
Speaker 2: and the idea behind reverse osmosis is that you have
Speaker 2: a semi permeable membrane and all that means is that
Speaker 2: this membrane lets water through but not salt. And so
Speaker 2: you push the salty water against this membrane and the
Speaker 2: water gets pushed through, but a lot of the salt
Speaker 2: stays behind. This is the most common method used today
Speaker 2: and partly because it requires less energy to produce that
Speaker 2: fresh water. But there are still new methods of desalination
Speaker 2: being explored, such as electrodialysis, capacitive deionization, and humidification dehumidification cycling.
Speaker 2: The idea behind these newer methods is that they're all
Speaker 2: looking for ways to lower the energy demand of desalination
Speaker 2: and turn could lower the cost of water production.
Speaker 1: So I'm glad you brought that up. How much does
Speaker 1: it cost?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the cheapest desalinated water you can find in
Speaker 2: the world would be in Saudi Arabia, where you can
Speaker 2: get it at less than fifty cents per cubic meter.
Speaker 2: Everywhere else in the world has more expensive desalinated water
Speaker 2: than that, and it really depends on things like the
Speaker 2: maturity of the industry in that area, the salinity of
Speaker 2: the water that you're using in the first place. The
Speaker 2: saltier your feed water is, the harder it is to
Speaker 2: get the salt out, and therefore the more expensive it is.
Speaker 2: Things like the cost of energy and as well as
Speaker 2: the pre and post treatment required for that water depending
Speaker 2: on its use case.
Speaker 1: So you've just described this process of desalination, which I
Speaker 1: fully recognize is one complex into energy intensive and with
Speaker 1: that comes costs. So it's a application that is a
Speaker 1: you know, if you really need it and you have
Speaker 1: access to salt water, you're going to use this. But
Speaker 1: let's talk a bit about how people are currently getting water.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about parts of the world that are
Speaker 1: currently under water stress. So the state that I grew
Speaker 1: up in is California and produces a ton of food
Speaker 1: and also has a lot of periods of water stress
Speaker 1: in recent history, a lot of years that would be
Speaker 1: classified as droughts. And I know that this is not
Speaker 1: unique to California, but there's a lot of conversation about
Speaker 1: the water that is in dams and whether or not
Speaker 1: to release it at certain points in time. There was
Speaker 1: some water recently released. It was being held for agriculture
Speaker 1: for it later in the summer for August September, which
Speaker 1: is now no longer available. So water stress is coming
Speaker 1: to California potentially later this year. Is desalination something that's
Speaker 1: on the cards for that part of the world or
Speaker 1: other areas where there is water stress, or is this
Speaker 1: really somewhat limited use cases at least at this point
Speaker 1: in time because of how expensive and complex it is.
Speaker 2: Descalination is definitely being considered by more parts of the world. California,
Speaker 2: for example, recently released a report on the future of
Speaker 2: desalination plants in the state. But you have to remember
Speaker 2: that and we're thinking about desalination, we're comparing it to
Speaker 2: the alternative, which oftentimes is water that is really really
Speaker 2: cheap and oftentimes free. So take for example, if you
Speaker 2: are a farmer that depends on groundwater, you have to
Speaker 2: pay for a well, you know, install a well that
Speaker 2: goes down into the ground, and pay for the pumps,
Speaker 2: but the water itself you might not be paying for.
Speaker 2: You might not be paying for water that you draw
Speaker 2: from a lake for example. So oftentimes one of the
Speaker 2: things that we talk about in desalination is we have
Speaker 2: to lower the cost of water if we want this
Speaker 2: technology to be more competitive, because we're competing against really
Speaker 2: cheap access to water in lots of parts of the world.
Speaker 1: And then just let's talk about that one drawback other
Speaker 1: than the energy intensity, which has to do with increasing
Speaker 1: the salinity in wherever it is you're pulling the water from.
Speaker 1: If you take out the fresh water but you leave
Speaker 1: the salt, what does that do to the local ecosystem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so reverse osmosis, which as I mentioned is the
Speaker 2: most commonly used process today, ends up resulting into two
Speaker 2: streams of water. Like you have the fresh water, which
Speaker 2: is what you want to go on and use, and
Speaker 2: then you have this thing called brine. And this is Basically,
Speaker 2: this even saltier water that is left behind. Globally, more
Speaker 2: than one hundred and fifty million cubic meters of brine
Speaker 2: are produced per day from desalination, which is more than
Speaker 2: double the amount of fresh water produced from those same facilities. Now,
Speaker 2: this brine can have an impact on the environment. First
Speaker 2: of all, it's saltier, which is not what the aquatic
Speaker 2: life in oceans are used to. But you can also
Speaker 2: have other impacts, such as the temperature being different. That's
Speaker 2: why these facilities have to take into account things like
Speaker 2: how they disperse this brine into the ocean in order
Speaker 2: to try to minimize impacts. They also have to design
Speaker 2: their systems so that you know, aquatic life isn't actually
Speaker 2: sucked into with the desalination plant in the first place
Speaker 2: when they're grabbing the ocean water.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there are certainly some drawbacks that one needs
Speaker 1: to consider before we revert to wide scale use of
Speaker 1: desalination and before we go to the measures that are
Speaker 1: being taken to maybe reduce water consumption. So we're being
Speaker 1: a little wiser about what it is that we're applying
Speaker 1: it to and how we're doing it. Let's just talk
Speaker 1: about one other emerging technology. So atmospheric water generation is
Speaker 1: seen as an emerging technology. But I'm going to stop
Speaker 1: for a minute before you get to well, when you
Speaker 1: go to explain what it is, can you also tell
Speaker 1: me how this technology differs from the dehumidifier that I
Speaker 1: have sucking the water out of my clothes as I'm
Speaker 1: drying them on the drying rack.
Speaker 2: Oh, sometimes it doesn't actually, So the idea high atmospheric
Speaker 2: water generation is that you are taking water vapor from
Speaker 2: the air and condensing it, and there are actually a
Speaker 2: couple of ways to do that. Some of it is
Speaker 2: simple condensation, which is like the seeing technology that is
Speaker 2: in your dehumidifier. Actually, sometimes it's instead using a process
Speaker 2: called absorption, in which you have basically a solid that
Speaker 2: the water then adheres to. Sometimes you have things called bognets,
Speaker 2: which are basically inspired by spiderwebs and water drop lists
Speaker 2: collect on the strings of these nets and then coalesce together,
Speaker 2: creating more water. So atmospheric water generation is actually just
Speaker 2: an umbrella term for a couple of different technologies, but
Speaker 2: they all aim to collect water from the air instead.
Speaker 2: This makes it different from desalination, which you know requires
Speaker 2: some sort of large body of salty water nearby. Atmospheric
Speaker 2: water generation isn't limited by having access to a body
Speaker 2: of water, it's instead thinking about how much humidity is
Speaker 2: in the air.
Speaker 1: Okay, So now that we've talked about the technologies that
Speaker 1: are potentially increasing supply, let's talk about water management and
Speaker 1: what can be done to reduce the amount of demand.
Speaker 1: You know how much of a role deletes play in pipes.
Speaker 1: You know, what are some of the main areas where
Speaker 1: we're just losing water needlessly, and what steps are being
Speaker 1: taken to ameliorate that.
Speaker 2: In addition to being able to increase these sources of
Speaker 2: water that we have, being able to reduce how much
Speaker 2: water we need is also incredibly useful, and there are
Speaker 2: a couple of ways that we can do this. Let's
Speaker 2: start from the utility perspective. Water utilities are often the
Speaker 2: way in which water gets distributed in places, and so
Speaker 2: we have these large infrastructure networks that manage these large
Speaker 2: water flows, covering everything from distributing drinking water to also
Speaker 2: storm water management. Now, if we look at just drinking water,
Speaker 2: we know that today over three hundred and forty five
Speaker 2: million cubic meters of water are lost in distribution daily,
Speaker 2: and that's money that is lost by those water utilities
Speaker 2: because it's water that they sent out but didn't actually
Speaker 2: make it to a customer, so they don't get to
Speaker 2: charge their customers for it. But it's also water that
Speaker 2: we would rather put to good use. We would rather
Speaker 2: not waste that water. You also have things like making
Speaker 2: sure that these really large infrastructure systems are operating well.
Speaker 2: We can that way, we can find these leaks quickly,
Speaker 2: we can manage the equipment well. And so as a result,
Speaker 2: we ATF tracked thirty six different companies that are selling
Speaker 2: their products to these utilities across those different use cases
Speaker 2: around managing their equipment better, finding leaked to connection, being
Speaker 2: able to monitor their water quality, all in an effort
Speaker 2: to make sure that we use our water more effectively.
Speaker 2: These companies have collectively raised two hundred seventy six million
Speaker 2: dollars since twenty sixteen, which is admittedly raising money a
Speaker 2: little slower than most climate technologies. But that's not to
Speaker 2: say that this isn't really useful, because we really need
Speaker 2: to make sure that we're using our water as effectively
Speaker 2: as possible.
Speaker 1: Well, and so then you know, let's talk about agriculture,
Speaker 1: which is an application that we I think all kind
Speaker 1: of really understand in its basic sense. And you identified
Speaker 1: earlier that in some of these use cases, you know,
Speaker 1: they are aquifers underground, they have access to them, but
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it's limitless. Is that the primary
Speaker 1: motivation for innovation in reducing water use in agricultural applications
Speaker 1: and what are some of the way is that the
Speaker 1: agriculture system is actually trying to be a little bit
Speaker 1: more cautious about their water consumption.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, as I mentioned earlier, agriculture is the largest
Speaker 2: user of fresh water supply, and water stress therefore really
Speaker 2: is impactful to this industry. It's whether it's aquifers that
Speaker 2: are being drawn down and aren't being replenished by ra water,
Speaker 2: whether it's rivers that have so much water being withdrawn
Speaker 2: upstream that by the time you a downstream farmer gets
Speaker 2: access to the river, it's drier than it would have
Speaker 2: been otherwise. Altogether, we're seeing that water stress is increasingly
Speaker 2: a challenge that farmers and the agriculture industry have to face.
Speaker 2: But it's also one that we it's really important that
Speaker 2: we resolved. Irrigation is one of the ways you do
Speaker 2: that right, and some nine hundred and thirty five billion
Speaker 2: cubic meters of water we're used for irrigation purposes. In
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, irrigated lands account for thirty three percent
Speaker 2: of global crop production and forty four percent of cereal
Speaker 2: production despite only being twenty four percent of crop lands,
Speaker 2: meaning that like they're functuring above their weight, your irrigation
Speaker 2: is really important. But climate change is making these water
Speaker 2: flows more erratic, and so the agriculture sector is looking
Speaker 2: at how they can use water more efficiently, specifically by
Speaker 2: thinking about how they can lower the amount of water
Speaker 2: they use or time when using that water really well,
Speaker 2: so that they can use less water while improving their yield.
Speaker 2: The way they do this is through analytics that can
Speaker 2: help them better understand things like weather patterns, soil moisture,
Speaker 2: better understand where water is being lost on the farm,
Speaker 2: and the hope is that they can minimize crop losses
Speaker 2: as a result. Just as an example, in the US
Speaker 2: since two thousand, drought and high temperatures have been the
Speaker 2: primary driver of indemnified crop loss under the US Federal
Speaker 2: Crop Insurance Program, responsible for forty three point seven percent
Speaker 2: of pavements. So figuring out how to use water really
Speaker 2: effectively has significant financial consequences for agriculture.
Speaker 1: Okay, so when it comes to water and perhaps recycling
Speaker 1: of water, where does the role of gray water come
Speaker 1: into this? And water treatment and reuse, which you know
Speaker 1: is reducing the amount of what is required because you're
Speaker 1: making better use of what you already have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely thinking about reusing, recycling, and also eventually you
Speaker 2: discharge water out into the world. All of that means
Speaker 2: that you want to think about water and wastewater treatment.
Speaker 2: You want to make sure that the water is still
Speaker 2: at a good enough quality for whatever it is your
Speaker 2: deal with mix. So if you're trying to recycle water
Speaker 2: within your plant, you want to make sure that the
Speaker 2: water is still pure enough that it's not going to
Speaker 2: damage your equipment. If you are discharging it out into
Speaker 2: the environment, you want to make sure that it is
Speaker 2: clean enough that you're not running into problems with environmental regulations.
Speaker 2: So that means thinking about things like heavy metals, chemicals, microbes.
Speaker 2: These are all different types of impurities that can be
Speaker 2: found in water, and depending on what that water is
Speaker 2: used for, you want to think about what's the concentration
Speaker 2: of those impurities that you want in your water. So
Speaker 2: water treatment tech is already widely used today, as is
Speaker 2: wastewater treatment, and as water stress becomes more salient, we
Speaker 2: can expect to see these technologies become more used throughout
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: So as we think about this as a problem that
Speaker 1: will affect certain regions more than others, but certainly is global.
Speaker 1: Are these solutions and some of these ways of purifying water,
Speaker 1: treating water, recycling water, do they have wide scale application
Speaker 1: or are these going to be really hyper regional, hyperlocal solutions.
Speaker 1: I guess the question I'm asking is how scalable are
Speaker 1: the solutions going to be? As people are looking to
Speaker 1: tackle water stress worldwide.
Speaker 2: We've already seen how water tech can be widely adopted.
Speaker 2: Take drinking water right, We around the world have parts
Speaker 2: of the world which have really good access to drinking
Speaker 2: water because we've done a good job of building the
Speaker 2: infrastructure required to treat that drinking water. Access to clean
Speaker 2: water has expanded significantly over the last two decades, although
Speaker 2: we still have large portions of Oceana and Sub Saharan
Speaker 2: Africa that remain without access to it. Wastewater treatment is
Speaker 2: also widespread. Now there are over fifty thousand municipally operated
Speaker 2: wastewater treatment plants around the world globally, and we can
Speaker 2: expect to see that increase as more places adopt wastewater regulations. However,
Speaker 2: it should be noted that when I say water treatment
Speaker 2: tech that encompasses so many things, there are over one
Speaker 2: hundred different technologies that I am subtly referencing in that,
Speaker 2: and that's because water can just be so different. The
Speaker 2: water that comes out of a pulp and paper manufacturing
Speaker 2: facility is different from the water that comes out of
Speaker 2: a steel facility, is different from the water that comes
Speaker 2: out of my apartment, for example. So there is plenty
Speaker 2: of opportunity for water tech to grow an adoption, though
Speaker 2: exactly what type of technology it's actually a little bit
Speaker 2: more specific than that, and not everything works in every circumstance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So while we're talking about, you know, trying to
Speaker 1: apply some industrial processes to improve water quality for some
Speaker 1: of the broader use cases, there are going to be
Speaker 1: lots of different use cases that are going to need
Speaker 1: to emerge and have this water tech that you're speaking about.
Speaker 1: So let's go into one of those more specific cases,
Speaker 1: which has to do with purifying water and these You know, well,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of discussion about forever chemicals and human
Speaker 1: consumption and how food water is carrying some of these
Speaker 1: things at the moment. So PFAS, which stands for I
Speaker 1: don't even think I can say this out loud, what
Speaker 1: does PFAST stand for?
Speaker 2: I was, well, I was looking at that. I was like,
Speaker 2: oh god, I have to power and polyfloral alkyl substances.
Speaker 1: Right, So this term, First of all, what a PFAS?
Speaker 1: Why should we be concerned? And then on the more
Speaker 1: optimistic side, what is happening in water tech to reduce
Speaker 1: p FAST in our water?
Speaker 2: Yes? So p FAS is an umbrella term for thousands
Speaker 2: of different synthetic chemicals. So basically, I want you to
Speaker 2: think of a nice little hydrocarbon chain and we're going
Speaker 2: to pop off some of those hydrogen atoms and attach
Speaker 2: multiple fluorine atoms instead. This gives it the property where
Speaker 2: it can be used in nonstick coatings and waterproofing, firefighter films,
Speaker 2: among a bunch of other things. And PFASs really became
Speaker 2: very prevalent throughout different manufacturing processing. The downside is that
Speaker 2: PFAS is really long lasting and bioaccumulating, and we now
Speaker 2: have a growing body of scientific research sewing that pfas
Speaker 2: can have health impacts, including impacts on raising cholesterol, diminished
Speaker 2: antibody responses, and increased likelihood of cancer. As a result,
Speaker 2: we have seen increasing government regulation of p fas, and
Speaker 2: we've also seen lots of lawsuits against major chemical companies
Speaker 2: accusing them of basically polluting water with pfas. So PFAS
Speaker 2: is clearly getting a lot more attention these days as
Speaker 2: like an emerging contaminant that we now need to create
Speaker 2: the technologies to be able to treat.
Speaker 1: So to sum this up, we've tried to talk about
Speaker 1: water and water applications supply demand different purification processes in
Speaker 1: a very short period of time on this show. We
Speaker 1: just barely touched upon it and set the groundwork for
Speaker 1: further conversation on this topic. But what I'm hearing from
Speaker 1: you is that there are some legacy existing technologies that
Speaker 1: have wider use case, and there are emerging technologies that
Speaker 1: some of them will be more niche applications, and some
Speaker 1: of them will be tackling some of these more prevalent,
Speaker 1: increasingly prevalent issues like pfas, and this is a space
Speaker 1: that's actively being covered, that there's a lot of innovation
Speaker 1: happening at the moment, and that you know, there's certainly
Speaker 1: something to watch as we look at this really critically
Speaker 1: important resource not only for human survival and agriculture, but
Speaker 1: also for the modern world we live in with energy
Speaker 1: consumption and AI is that a fair estimation? What did
Speaker 1: I miss Stephanie? What is the other takeaway that you
Speaker 1: may have from the work that you did delving into
Speaker 1: the world of water as it relates to bn F.
Speaker 2: Water is one of those things, like I said at
Speaker 2: the beginning of the show, we kind of take it
Speaker 2: for granted in lots of parts of the world because
Speaker 2: it just is available. But as climate change changes that availability,
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be taking it for granted. And water is
Speaker 2: really useful and really important. It's one of the small
Speaker 2: areas of climate tech, but it is one that is
Speaker 2: going to play a significant role in the future. And
Speaker 2: just to kind of illustrate what I mean by that,
Speaker 2: I want to give you an example of like where
Speaker 2: I live, because I live in New York City and
Speaker 2: we're in the part of the US known for having
Speaker 2: plentiful water. We actually get more rain in a year
Speaker 2: than London, but we're currently in a moderate drought according
Speaker 2: to the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and have
Speaker 2: been since the fall. And this drought actually led to
Speaker 2: us postponing work on the Delaware Aqueduct, which is what
Speaker 2: an aqueduct that normally provides ninety percent of my city's
Speaker 2: drinking water. It needs repair because it currently leaks about
Speaker 2: thirty five million gallons of water a day, but the
Speaker 2: drought meant that we had to postpone network. That's an
Speaker 2: example of water stress and challenges in a place that
Speaker 2: normally isn't water stressed and challenged. So all of this
Speaker 2: to say that you'll be hearing more about water as
Speaker 2: time goes on.
Speaker 1: Something to watch, and thank you Stephanie so much for
Speaker 1: coming and is sharing lots of thoughts on how we
Speaker 1: should be thinking about water.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray
Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a
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