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Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on,

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Speaker 1: the podcast brought to you by BNF. Today, we're here

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Speaker 1: to talk about the existing and emerging technology solutions to

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Speaker 1: address water stress. According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,

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Speaker 1: anywhere between one point five to two point five billion

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Speaker 1: people live in areas exposed to water stress today. This

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Speaker 1: is forecasted to rise to three billion by twenty fifty,

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Speaker 1: and that's only if warming is limited to two degrees

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Speaker 1: c by that point. Humans are made up of roughly

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Speaker 1: sixty percent water, so to say that its essential would

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Speaker 1: be an understatement. And we live on an increasingly thirsty planet,

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Speaker 1: not just due to population growth and demands from agriculture,

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Speaker 1: but also owing to increasing demand from industry and data centers. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the same data centers that are needed to power AI technology.

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Speaker 1: So where do we get more water? From energy intensive

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Speaker 1: desalination plants to reducing water loss, to increasing water reuse

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Speaker 1: and recycling. We'll get into the technology side of this

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Speaker 1: essential building block for life on this planet. I'm joined

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Speaker 1: today by b and EF technology and innovation analyst Stephanie Diaz,

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Speaker 1: who shares findings from her recently released research note titled

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Speaker 1: tech Radar Water supply use and Treatment. Bn EF clients

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Speaker 1: will be able to find this at BNOF go on

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal or at BNF dot com. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's get to talking about water. Stephanie, thank you for

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Speaker 1: joining today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Dana.

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Speaker 1: So we're here to talk about water today, and we

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Speaker 1: know that this has so many important applications in addition

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Speaker 1: to what we drink and agriculture. But actually, as we

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Speaker 1: so often talk about in the show, the energy transition

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Speaker 1: is actually quite dependent upon water. We'll get to the

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Speaker 1: demand side part of it momentarily, but as we tend

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Speaker 1: to kick off many of these shows, let's start with

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Speaker 1: some definitions and then also as we think about the

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Speaker 1: fact that with climate change there is disruption to traditional

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Speaker 1: precipitation patterns, what is the definition of water stress?

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Speaker 2: Sure, but let's start by actually talking about water itself, right,

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Speaker 2: because water is really ubiquitous in everyday life. It's really

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Speaker 2: an amazing thing for a modern miracle that we can

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Speaker 2: just go to the tap and turn on our water.

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Speaker 2: But really what that ends up meaning in practice is

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Speaker 2: that we use an estimated four trillion cubic meters of

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Speaker 2: water annually. And most of this is coming from things

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Speaker 2: like rainfall, snowmells, river runoff, and we collect it from

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Speaker 2: surface water and groundwater, so think lakes, rivers, and aquifers.

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Speaker 2: These together account for ninety two percent of human water use,

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Speaker 2: and all of this water gets used in a couple

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Speaker 2: of different ways. About three quarters of that goes into

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Speaker 2: the agriculture sector, so think crops, livestock, aquaculture, and then

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Speaker 2: the remainder gets used for industrial or municipal purposes. So

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Speaker 2: when we talk about water stress, what we're actually talking

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Speaker 2: about is does the water demand outpace the supply. This

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Speaker 2: is a really localized definition because water is a really

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Speaker 2: regional thing. But what you should think about is between

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Speaker 2: the water that gets used for human purposes, the water

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Speaker 2: that needs to be there to in order to replenish rivers,

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Speaker 2: in order to you know, water forests, be used by

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Speaker 2: the environment. All of that, does that water demand surpass

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Speaker 2: the amount of water that is available in that area

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Speaker 2: for things like precipitation, groundwater, all of that. We are

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Speaker 2: increasingly seeing that water stress is becoming a pertinent issue

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Speaker 2: around the world. So today about one point five to

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Speaker 2: two point five billion people live in areas exposed to

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Speaker 2: water scarcity, and under a two degrees celsius scenario of

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Speaker 2: global warming that's expected to rise to approximately three billion

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Speaker 2: people by twenty fifty, demand for fresh water could be

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Speaker 2: up to forty percent greater than supply by twenty thirty,

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Speaker 2: according to the Global Commission on the Economics of Water.

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Speaker 1: So now let's pivot to the demand side part of things,

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Speaker 1: which has to do with this wider question of you know,

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Speaker 1: water for a lot of the end uses that you know,

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Speaker 1: we do traditionally talk about here at BNF, Can you

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Speaker 1: talk about some of the sectors that maybe many we've

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Speaker 1: thought of or some that we haven't thought of, that

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Speaker 1: are really heavily dependent upon this natural resource.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there are so many examples. Let's talk agriculture.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of a given that water is important for agriculture,

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Speaker 2: but we often don't think about this implicit water trade

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Speaker 2: that is happening in crop production. So, just to give

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Speaker 2: an example, Fondamonte is an agriculture company and it grows

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Speaker 2: alfalfa in the US state of Arizona, and that alfalfa

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Speaker 2: is then harvested and shipped back to Saudi Arabia to

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Speaker 2: feed cattle there. The company turned to Arizona because of

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Speaker 2: water scarcity issues in Saudi Arabia and the ability to

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Speaker 2: grow you around in Arizona, but Arizona itself is a

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Speaker 2: hot desert state. Water also has implications for the energy sector.

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Speaker 2: French company EDF had to reduce output of several of

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Speaker 2: its nuclear power plants in twenty twenty two as heat

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Speaker 2: waves made the river water that's usually used to cool

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Speaker 2: those nuclear power plants too warm. They had to reduce

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Speaker 2: their output as a result. It has impacts on mining

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Speaker 2: because water is used in querying and milling, and the

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Speaker 2: amount of water used for those processes can put stress

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Speaker 2: on local water supplies. In Mexico, Group of Mexicos, Buena

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Speaker 2: Vista del Cobre Mine dealt with protests in June twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four as the company was issued permits entitling it

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Speaker 2: to more than fifty billion liters of water annually, which

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Speaker 2: is fifty seven percent of that local watershed's volume, even

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Speaker 2: though that area is experiencing a regional drought. You have

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Speaker 2: examples across you know, thermal power plants that use up

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Speaker 2: to three thousand liters of water per megawat hour for

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Speaker 2: cooling the steel industry consumes up to one hundred and

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Speaker 2: seventy five liters of water per ton of steel produce.

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Speaker 2: Water ends up being used throughout so many of the

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Speaker 2: different industries that we cover here at BENF, So.

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Speaker 1: We could go in so many different directions when we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about end uses and demand side for water. But

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Speaker 1: let's focus in on one that has been incredibly buzzy lately,

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Speaker 1: and that is data centers and the growth of data

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Speaker 1: centers in some respects to this rise in AI applications

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Speaker 1: that are really leading to a lot more demand for

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Speaker 1: electricity in order to keep these data centers cool. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk about how water is connected to this burgeoning

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Speaker 1: space right now?

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Speaker 2: Data centers and AI are actually surprisingly dependent on water

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Speaker 2: in two ways. So let's talk about the first one,

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Speaker 2: which is cooling. So think of your laptop. When you

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Speaker 2: run it for a long period of time, it gets warm, right.

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Speaker 2: Data centers do the same thing. They get warm over time,

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Speaker 2: and water based cooling systems are often used in order

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Speaker 2: to take that heat away from the data centers and

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Speaker 2: keep them cool. This is a really energy efficient way

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Speaker 2: to do this, but it does mean that a lot

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Speaker 2: of water can get consumed in Virginia's Data Center Alley,

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Speaker 2: which is just outside of Washington, DC. Companies like Amazon

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Speaker 2: and Microsoft used one point nine billion gallons of water

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, a sixty four percent increase since

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. The second way in which data centers and

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Speaker 2: AI are dependent on water is through semiconductors themselves. So

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Speaker 2: the chips that go into these data centers. In order

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Speaker 2: to create these chips, you need really pure water, like

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Speaker 2: ultra pure water. This is water that is so pure

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Speaker 2: that it would actually kill us humans if we drink it.

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Speaker 2: But this is the kind of extremely pure water that

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Speaker 2: is necessary for the chips because they're working on the

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Speaker 2: scale of nanometers right. In order to produce these sort

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Speaker 2: of chips, you need access to really clean water, and

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Speaker 2: as a result, they end up consuming a lot of water.

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Speaker 2: According to the World Economic Forum, forty percent of semiconductor

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Speaker 2: manufacturing facilities are in watersheds expected to face severe water

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Speaker 2: stress between twenty thirty and twenty forty. And now I

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Speaker 2: want you to add to this another twenty four to

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Speaker 2: forty percent of facilities that are currently under constructed, and

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Speaker 2: then another forty percent of facilities that are currently planned

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Speaker 2: and underway that will also be located in severe water

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Speaker 2: stress areas. So when taken altogether, you can really see

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Speaker 2: how data centers ai big technique to be thinking more

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Speaker 2: about their water usage. A great example of this is

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Speaker 2: how in Chile recently a court partially reversed approval for

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Speaker 2: a two hundred million dollars Google data center projects, citing

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Speaker 2: that the company needed to go back and reconsider its

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Speaker 2: water use. This is after the data center had already

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Speaker 2: announced that it was going to switch from water based

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Speaker 2: cooling to the less water intensive want more energy intensive

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Speaker 2: air based cooling, and we've seen companies like Microsoft and

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Speaker 2: AWS commit to being water positive and aiming to replenish

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Speaker 2: more water than they use by twenty thirty.

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Speaker 1: Now, I think a lot of people understand that water

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Speaker 1: needs to be processed before it can be used, especially

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Speaker 1: well depending upon where it came from. But can you

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Speaker 1: just actually explain what ultra pure water is and why

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Speaker 1: it's deadly for humans.

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Speaker 2: So water needs to be processed to the level of

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Speaker 2: purity required for what people what it's being used for.

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Speaker 2: So take humans. We need to drink clean water, right,

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Speaker 2: but we actually don't need to drink perfectly pure water

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Speaker 2: because there's actually useful stuff in water. Water contains minerals

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Speaker 2: that are one of the ways we get them as

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Speaker 2: part of like a nutritional basis. If you drink ultra

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Speaker 2: pure water, it's too pure for our bodies and so

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Speaker 2: then our red blood cells end up rupturing because the

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Speaker 2: water wants to like even out the concentration.

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Speaker 1: I know this is not related to the energy system,

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Speaker 1: but I just I had to understand that. Okay. Another

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Speaker 1: form of water, since we're using this term very colloquially,

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Speaker 1: is salt water, and desalination is a technology that has

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Speaker 1: been used in order to remove salt from water to

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Speaker 1: make it to the level of purity that we can

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Speaker 1: use it for other use cases. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: desalination whether or not that for regions that may be

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Speaker 1: experiencing water stress, is desalination something that is becoming a

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Speaker 1: more popular technology.

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Speaker 2: Desalination is currently responsible for producing about two percent of

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Speaker 2: our global water global freshwater, that is, and while it's

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Speaker 2: only two percent globally, in water stress regions like the

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Speaker 2: Middle East, it is much higher than that. Saudi Arabia,

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Speaker 2: for example, relies on desalination for seventy percent of its freshwater,

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Speaker 2: and Kuwait relies on it for ninety percent of its

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Speaker 2: fresh water. So desalination can play a massive rule in

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Speaker 2: specific regions based on how localized that water stress is.

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Speaker 2: Desalination itself is a really mature technology. We've been doing

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Speaker 2: this for a long time now. There are currently about

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Speaker 2: fifteen thousand existing facilities globally that produce ninety five million

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Speaker 2: cubic meters of fresh water per day, but this is

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Speaker 2: expected to grow over time. The International Energy Agency expects

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Speaker 2: that energy demand for desalination is set to double by

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Speaker 2: twenty thirty from twenty twenty three levels, reaching nearly four

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Speaker 2: thousand Petta Rules of energy by the end of the decade.

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Speaker 2: Just to give a sense of scale, that's roughly the

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Speaker 2: energy consumption of Poland in twenty twenty three. So desalination

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Speaker 2: is a mature technology and it is definitely widely used

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Speaker 2: in some parts of the world, but not in all

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Speaker 2: of the world.

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Speaker 1: Are there innovations being made in the desalination space or

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Speaker 1: is it just becoming more prevalent.

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Speaker 2: Technologies for desalination are getting better. We've seen, for example,

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Speaker 2: that originally desalination was mostly done through multi stage flash

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Speaker 2: and multi effect distillation, which are both thermal methods of

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Speaker 2: removing salt fur water. Basically, the idea there is you

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Speaker 2: take water salty water, you evaporate it, and the salt

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Speaker 2: gets left behind, but the water becomes a gas. You

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Speaker 2: collect the gas and then you condense it so that

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Speaker 2: you have liquid water. Again. This is a really good

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Speaker 2: way of creating clean water, but it's also really energy intensive,

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Speaker 2: and so we saw the switch from these thermal methods

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Speaker 2: to using reverse osmosis instead. Reverse osmosis accounts for more

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Speaker 2: than two thirds of desalination capacity around the world today,

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Speaker 2: and the idea behind reverse osmosis is that you have

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Speaker 2: a semi permeable membrane and all that means is that

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Speaker 2: this membrane lets water through but not salt. And so

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Speaker 2: you push the salty water against this membrane and the

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Speaker 2: water gets pushed through, but a lot of the salt

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Speaker 2: stays behind. This is the most common method used today

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Speaker 2: and partly because it requires less energy to produce that

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Speaker 2: fresh water. But there are still new methods of desalination

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Speaker 2: being explored, such as electrodialysis, capacitive deionization, and humidification dehumidification cycling.

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Speaker 2: The idea behind these newer methods is that they're all

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Speaker 2: looking for ways to lower the energy demand of desalination

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Speaker 2: and turn could lower the cost of water production.

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Speaker 1: So I'm glad you brought that up. How much does

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Speaker 1: it cost?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the cheapest desalinated water you can find in

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Speaker 2: the world would be in Saudi Arabia, where you can

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Speaker 2: get it at less than fifty cents per cubic meter.

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Speaker 2: Everywhere else in the world has more expensive desalinated water

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Speaker 2: than that, and it really depends on things like the

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Speaker 2: maturity of the industry in that area, the salinity of

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Speaker 2: the water that you're using in the first place. The

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Speaker 2: saltier your feed water is, the harder it is to

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Speaker 2: get the salt out, and therefore the more expensive it is.

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Speaker 2: Things like the cost of energy and as well as

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Speaker 2: the pre and post treatment required for that water depending

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Speaker 2: on its use case.

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Speaker 1: So you've just described this process of desalination, which I

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Speaker 1: fully recognize is one complex into energy intensive and with

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Speaker 1: that comes costs. So it's a application that is a

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Speaker 1: you know, if you really need it and you have

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Speaker 1: access to salt water, you're going to use this. But

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Speaker 1: let's talk a bit about how people are currently getting water.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about parts of the world that are

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Speaker 1: currently under water stress. So the state that I grew

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Speaker 1: up in is California and produces a ton of food

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Speaker 1: and also has a lot of periods of water stress

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Speaker 1: in recent history, a lot of years that would be

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Speaker 1: classified as droughts. And I know that this is not

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Speaker 1: unique to California, but there's a lot of conversation about

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Speaker 1: the water that is in dams and whether or not

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Speaker 1: to release it at certain points in time. There was

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Speaker 1: some water recently released. It was being held for agriculture

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Speaker 1: for it later in the summer for August September, which

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Speaker 1: is now no longer available. So water stress is coming

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Speaker 1: to California potentially later this year. Is desalination something that's

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Speaker 1: on the cards for that part of the world or

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Speaker 1: other areas where there is water stress, or is this

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Speaker 1: really somewhat limited use cases at least at this point

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Speaker 1: in time because of how expensive and complex it is.

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Speaker 2: Descalination is definitely being considered by more parts of the world. California,

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Speaker 2: for example, recently released a report on the future of

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Speaker 2: desalination plants in the state. But you have to remember

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Speaker 2: that and we're thinking about desalination, we're comparing it to

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Speaker 2: the alternative, which oftentimes is water that is really really

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Speaker 2: cheap and oftentimes free. So take for example, if you

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Speaker 2: are a farmer that depends on groundwater, you have to

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Speaker 2: pay for a well, you know, install a well that

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Speaker 2: goes down into the ground, and pay for the pumps,

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Speaker 2: but the water itself you might not be paying for.

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Speaker 2: You might not be paying for water that you draw

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Speaker 2: from a lake for example. So oftentimes one of the

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Speaker 2: things that we talk about in desalination is we have

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Speaker 2: to lower the cost of water if we want this

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Speaker 2: technology to be more competitive, because we're competing against really

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Speaker 2: cheap access to water in lots of parts of the world.

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Speaker 1: And then just let's talk about that one drawback other

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Speaker 1: than the energy intensity, which has to do with increasing

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Speaker 1: the salinity in wherever it is you're pulling the water from.

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Speaker 1: If you take out the fresh water but you leave

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Speaker 1: the salt, what does that do to the local ecosystem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so reverse osmosis, which as I mentioned is the

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Speaker 2: most commonly used process today, ends up resulting into two

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Speaker 2: streams of water. Like you have the fresh water, which

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Speaker 2: is what you want to go on and use, and

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Speaker 2: then you have this thing called brine. And this is Basically,

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Speaker 2: this even saltier water that is left behind. Globally, more

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Speaker 2: than one hundred and fifty million cubic meters of brine

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Speaker 2: are produced per day from desalination, which is more than

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Speaker 2: double the amount of fresh water produced from those same facilities. Now,

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Speaker 2: this brine can have an impact on the environment. First

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Speaker 2: of all, it's saltier, which is not what the aquatic

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Speaker 2: life in oceans are used to. But you can also

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Speaker 2: have other impacts, such as the temperature being different. That's

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Speaker 2: why these facilities have to take into account things like

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Speaker 2: how they disperse this brine into the ocean in order

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Speaker 2: to try to minimize impacts. They also have to design

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Speaker 2: their systems so that you know, aquatic life isn't actually

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Speaker 2: sucked into with the desalination plant in the first place

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Speaker 2: when they're grabbing the ocean water.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so there are certainly some drawbacks that one needs

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Speaker 1: to consider before we revert to wide scale use of

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Speaker 1: desalination and before we go to the measures that are

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Speaker 1: being taken to maybe reduce water consumption. So we're being

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Speaker 1: a little wiser about what it is that we're applying

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Speaker 1: it to and how we're doing it. Let's just talk

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Speaker 1: about one other emerging technology. So atmospheric water generation is

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Speaker 1: seen as an emerging technology. But I'm going to stop

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Speaker 1: for a minute before you get to well, when you

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Speaker 1: go to explain what it is, can you also tell

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Speaker 1: me how this technology differs from the dehumidifier that I

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Speaker 1: have sucking the water out of my clothes as I'm

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Speaker 1: drying them on the drying rack.

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Speaker 2: Oh, sometimes it doesn't actually, So the idea high atmospheric

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Speaker 2: water generation is that you are taking water vapor from

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Speaker 2: the air and condensing it, and there are actually a

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Speaker 2: couple of ways to do that. Some of it is

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Speaker 2: simple condensation, which is like the seeing technology that is

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Speaker 2: in your dehumidifier. Actually, sometimes it's instead using a process

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Speaker 2: called absorption, in which you have basically a solid that

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Speaker 2: the water then adheres to. Sometimes you have things called bognets,

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Speaker 2: which are basically inspired by spiderwebs and water drop lists

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Speaker 2: collect on the strings of these nets and then coalesce together,

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Speaker 2: creating more water. So atmospheric water generation is actually just

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Speaker 2: an umbrella term for a couple of different technologies, but

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Speaker 2: they all aim to collect water from the air instead.

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Speaker 2: This makes it different from desalination, which you know requires

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Speaker 2: some sort of large body of salty water nearby. Atmospheric

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Speaker 2: water generation isn't limited by having access to a body

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Speaker 2: of water, it's instead thinking about how much humidity is

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Speaker 2: in the air.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So now that we've talked about the technologies that

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Speaker 1: are potentially increasing supply, let's talk about water management and

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Speaker 1: what can be done to reduce the amount of demand.

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Speaker 1: You know how much of a role deletes play in pipes.

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Speaker 1: You know, what are some of the main areas where

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Speaker 1: we're just losing water needlessly, and what steps are being

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Speaker 1: taken to ameliorate that.

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Speaker 2: In addition to being able to increase these sources of

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Speaker 2: water that we have, being able to reduce how much

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Speaker 2: water we need is also incredibly useful, and there are

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Speaker 2: a couple of ways that we can do this. Let's

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Speaker 2: start from the utility perspective. Water utilities are often the

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Speaker 2: way in which water gets distributed in places, and so

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Speaker 2: we have these large infrastructure networks that manage these large

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Speaker 2: water flows, covering everything from distributing drinking water to also

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Speaker 2: storm water management. Now, if we look at just drinking water,

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Speaker 2: we know that today over three hundred and forty five

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Speaker 2: million cubic meters of water are lost in distribution daily,

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Speaker 2: and that's money that is lost by those water utilities

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Speaker 2: because it's water that they sent out but didn't actually

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Speaker 2: make it to a customer, so they don't get to

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Speaker 2: charge their customers for it. But it's also water that

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Speaker 2: we would rather put to good use. We would rather

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Speaker 2: not waste that water. You also have things like making

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Speaker 2: sure that these really large infrastructure systems are operating well.

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Speaker 2: We can that way, we can find these leaks quickly,

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Speaker 2: we can manage the equipment well. And so as a result,

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Speaker 2: we ATF tracked thirty six different companies that are selling

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Speaker 2: their products to these utilities across those different use cases

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Speaker 2: around managing their equipment better, finding leaked to connection, being

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Speaker 2: able to monitor their water quality, all in an effort

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we use our water more effectively.

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Speaker 2: These companies have collectively raised two hundred seventy six million

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Speaker 2: dollars since twenty sixteen, which is admittedly raising money a

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Speaker 2: little slower than most climate technologies. But that's not to

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Speaker 2: say that this isn't really useful, because we really need

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we're using our water as effectively

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Speaker 2: as possible.

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Speaker 1: Well, and so then you know, let's talk about agriculture,

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Speaker 1: which is an application that we I think all kind

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Speaker 1: of really understand in its basic sense. And you identified

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Speaker 1: earlier that in some of these use cases, you know,

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Speaker 1: they are aquifers underground, they have access to them, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it's limitless. Is that the primary

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Speaker 1: motivation for innovation in reducing water use in agricultural applications

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Speaker 1: and what are some of the way is that the

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Speaker 1: agriculture system is actually trying to be a little bit

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Speaker 1: more cautious about their water consumption.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, as I mentioned earlier, agriculture is the largest

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Speaker 2: user of fresh water supply, and water stress therefore really

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Speaker 2: is impactful to this industry. It's whether it's aquifers that

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Speaker 2: are being drawn down and aren't being replenished by ra water,

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Speaker 2: whether it's rivers that have so much water being withdrawn

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Speaker 2: upstream that by the time you a downstream farmer gets

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Speaker 2: access to the river, it's drier than it would have

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Speaker 2: been otherwise. Altogether, we're seeing that water stress is increasingly

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Speaker 2: a challenge that farmers and the agriculture industry have to face.

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Speaker 2: But it's also one that we it's really important that

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Speaker 2: we resolved. Irrigation is one of the ways you do

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Speaker 2: that right, and some nine hundred and thirty five billion

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Speaker 2: cubic meters of water we're used for irrigation purposes. In

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, irrigated lands account for thirty three percent

400
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Speaker 2: of global crop production and forty four percent of cereal

401
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Speaker 2: production despite only being twenty four percent of crop lands,

402
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Speaker 2: meaning that like they're functuring above their weight, your irrigation

403
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Speaker 2: is really important. But climate change is making these water

404
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Speaker 2: flows more erratic, and so the agriculture sector is looking

405
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Speaker 2: at how they can use water more efficiently, specifically by

406
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Speaker 2: thinking about how they can lower the amount of water

407
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Speaker 2: they use or time when using that water really well,

408
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Speaker 2: so that they can use less water while improving their yield.

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Speaker 2: The way they do this is through analytics that can

410
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Speaker 2: help them better understand things like weather patterns, soil moisture,

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Speaker 2: better understand where water is being lost on the farm,

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Speaker 2: and the hope is that they can minimize crop losses

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Speaker 2: as a result. Just as an example, in the US

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Speaker 2: since two thousand, drought and high temperatures have been the

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Speaker 2: primary driver of indemnified crop loss under the US Federal

416
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Speaker 2: Crop Insurance Program, responsible for forty three point seven percent

417
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Speaker 2: of pavements. So figuring out how to use water really

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Speaker 2: effectively has significant financial consequences for agriculture.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so when it comes to water and perhaps recycling

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Speaker 1: of water, where does the role of gray water come

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Speaker 1: into this? And water treatment and reuse, which you know

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Speaker 1: is reducing the amount of what is required because you're

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Speaker 1: making better use of what you already have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely thinking about reusing, recycling, and also eventually you

425
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Speaker 2: discharge water out into the world. All of that means

426
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Speaker 2: that you want to think about water and wastewater treatment.

427
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Speaker 2: You want to make sure that the water is still

428
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Speaker 2: at a good enough quality for whatever it is your

429
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Speaker 2: deal with mix. So if you're trying to recycle water

430
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Speaker 2: within your plant, you want to make sure that the

431
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Speaker 2: water is still pure enough that it's not going to

432
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Speaker 2: damage your equipment. If you are discharging it out into

433
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Speaker 2: the environment, you want to make sure that it is

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Speaker 2: clean enough that you're not running into problems with environmental regulations.

435
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Speaker 2: So that means thinking about things like heavy metals, chemicals, microbes.

436
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Speaker 2: These are all different types of impurities that can be

437
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 2: found in water, and depending on what that water is

438
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: used for, you want to think about what's the concentration

439
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: of those impurities that you want in your water. So

440
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 2: water treatment tech is already widely used today, as is

441
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 2: wastewater treatment, and as water stress becomes more salient, we

442
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 2: can expect to see these technologies become more used throughout

443
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 2: the world.

444
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 1: So as we think about this as a problem that

445
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: will affect certain regions more than others, but certainly is global.

446
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: Are these solutions and some of these ways of purifying water,

447
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 1: treating water, recycling water, do they have wide scale application

448
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: or are these going to be really hyper regional, hyperlocal solutions.

449
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: I guess the question I'm asking is how scalable are

450
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: the solutions going to be? As people are looking to

451
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 1: tackle water stress worldwide.

452
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: We've already seen how water tech can be widely adopted.

453
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 2: Take drinking water right, We around the world have parts

454
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 2: of the world which have really good access to drinking

455
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: water because we've done a good job of building the

456
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: infrastructure required to treat that drinking water. Access to clean

457
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: water has expanded significantly over the last two decades, although

458
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 2: we still have large portions of Oceana and Sub Saharan

459
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: Africa that remain without access to it. Wastewater treatment is

460
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: also widespread. Now there are over fifty thousand municipally operated

461
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 2: wastewater treatment plants around the world globally, and we can

462
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: expect to see that increase as more places adopt wastewater regulations. However,

463
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 2: it should be noted that when I say water treatment

464
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,719
Speaker 2: tech that encompasses so many things, there are over one

465
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 2: hundred different technologies that I am subtly referencing in that,

466
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 2: and that's because water can just be so different. The

467
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 2: water that comes out of a pulp and paper manufacturing

468
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 2: facility is different from the water that comes out of

469
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: a steel facility, is different from the water that comes

470
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: out of my apartment, for example. So there is plenty

471
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: of opportunity for water tech to grow an adoption, though

472
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: exactly what type of technology it's actually a little bit

473
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 2: more specific than that, and not everything works in every circumstance.

474
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, So while we're talking about, you know, trying to

475
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: apply some industrial processes to improve water quality for some

476
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: of the broader use cases, there are going to be

477
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: lots of different use cases that are going to need

478
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: to emerge and have this water tech that you're speaking about.

479
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: So let's go into one of those more specific cases,

480
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 1: which has to do with purifying water and these You know, well,

481
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of discussion about forever chemicals and human

482
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: consumption and how food water is carrying some of these

483
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: things at the moment. So PFAS, which stands for I

484
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: don't even think I can say this out loud, what

485
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: does PFAST stand for?

486
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 2: I was, well, I was looking at that. I was like,

487
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 2: oh god, I have to power and polyfloral alkyl substances.

488
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: Right, So this term, First of all, what a PFAS?

489
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: Why should we be concerned? And then on the more

490
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: optimistic side, what is happening in water tech to reduce

491
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: p FAST in our water?

492
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 2: Yes? So p FAS is an umbrella term for thousands

493
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: of different synthetic chemicals. So basically, I want you to

494
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: think of a nice little hydrocarbon chain and we're going

495
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: to pop off some of those hydrogen atoms and attach

496
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: multiple fluorine atoms instead. This gives it the property where

497
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: it can be used in nonstick coatings and waterproofing, firefighter films,

498
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: among a bunch of other things. And PFASs really became

499
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: very prevalent throughout different manufacturing processing. The downside is that

500
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 2: PFAS is really long lasting and bioaccumulating, and we now

501
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: have a growing body of scientific research sewing that pfas

502
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: can have health impacts, including impacts on raising cholesterol, diminished

503
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: antibody responses, and increased likelihood of cancer. As a result,

504
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 2: we have seen increasing government regulation of p fas, and

505
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: we've also seen lots of lawsuits against major chemical companies

506
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: accusing them of basically polluting water with pfas. So PFAS

507
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: is clearly getting a lot more attention these days as

508
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 2: like an emerging contaminant that we now need to create

509
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: the technologies to be able to treat.

510
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: So to sum this up, we've tried to talk about

511
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: water and water applications supply demand different purification processes in

512
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: a very short period of time on this show. We

513
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: just barely touched upon it and set the groundwork for

514
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: further conversation on this topic. But what I'm hearing from

515
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: you is that there are some legacy existing technologies that

516
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: have wider use case, and there are emerging technologies that

517
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: some of them will be more niche applications, and some

518
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: of them will be tackling some of these more prevalent,

519
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: increasingly prevalent issues like pfas, and this is a space

520
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: that's actively being covered, that there's a lot of innovation

521
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: happening at the moment, and that you know, there's certainly

522
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: something to watch as we look at this really critically

523
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: important resource not only for human survival and agriculture, but

524
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: also for the modern world we live in with energy

525
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: consumption and AI is that a fair estimation? What did

526
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: I miss Stephanie? What is the other takeaway that you

527
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: may have from the work that you did delving into

528
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: the world of water as it relates to bn F.

529
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: Water is one of those things, like I said at

530
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: the beginning of the show, we kind of take it

531
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 2: for granted in lots of parts of the world because

532
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: it just is available. But as climate change changes that availability,

533
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be taking it for granted. And water is

534
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: really useful and really important. It's one of the small

535
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: areas of climate tech, but it is one that is

536
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: going to play a significant role in the future. And

537
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: just to kind of illustrate what I mean by that,

538
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: I want to give you an example of like where

539
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: I live, because I live in New York City and

540
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: we're in the part of the US known for having

541
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: plentiful water. We actually get more rain in a year

542
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: than London, but we're currently in a moderate drought according

543
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 2: to the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and have

544
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: been since the fall. And this drought actually led to

545
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: us postponing work on the Delaware Aqueduct, which is what

546
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 2: an aqueduct that normally provides ninety percent of my city's

547
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: drinking water. It needs repair because it currently leaks about

548
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: thirty five million gallons of water a day, but the

549
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: drought meant that we had to postpone network. That's an

550
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: example of water stress and challenges in a place that

551
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: normally isn't water stressed and challenged. So all of this

552
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: to say that you'll be hearing more about water as

553
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: time goes on.

554
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: Something to watch, and thank you Stephanie so much for

555
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: coming and is sharing lots of thoughts on how we

556
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: should be thinking about water.

557
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

558
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray

559
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a

560
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This

561
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,959
Speaker 1: recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed as

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00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: investment in vice investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to

563
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIF should not be

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00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: considered as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision.

565
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,560
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566
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,320
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