1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: You know, I've often tallied up in my mind there 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: are seven ways to die, and when you ask people 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: what would be the worst way to die, many people 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: say drowning, many people say burning. I have personally dealt 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: with victims of crime that were burned, and it is 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: one of the most painful you can ever have. And 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: to think that someone, a perpetrator would do that to 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: a victim, it's the worst pain, the worst death imaginable. 9 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: I've spoken to, believe it or not, many women whose boyfriend, 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: husband lover X have set them on fire. I've noticed 11 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: that so many of them were set on fire or 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: doubt with accelerant in their face. I'm just a trial lawyer, 13 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: but I find that to be extremely privative and extremely 14 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: psychologically significant. Now I tell you such a story. This 15 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The twenty 16 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: eight year old is charged with attempted murder, assault, arson, 17 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: criminal possession of a weapon, among other charges. Both Cameron 18 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: and White work at the tim Horns off Niagara Street 19 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: in the city of Tonawanda, where the attack happened Monday afternoon. 20 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: Police say White through a flammable fluid on Cameron, then 21 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: set her on fire. And injured himself in the process. 22 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: The maintenance worker outside did not see the incident occur, 23 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: but it's all fireball and heard screams. He rushed to extinguished. 24 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: Cameron White meanwhile extinguished himself and then also tried to 25 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: help his ex girlfriend. Both were rushed at ECMC with 26 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: series burns. You're hearing our friends at WKBW Buffalo. That 27 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: was Nikki Dmitri I meanc Grace. This is Crime Stories. 28 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Did a man poor 29 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 1: gas on his ex girlfriend then set her on fire? 30 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: It's almost too horrendous to even imagine. An All Star 31 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: panel with me. Stephen Lampley, detective and author of Outside 32 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: Your Door, Psychoanalyst, joining me from LA Doctor Bethany Marshall, 33 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: medical examiner out of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation 34 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: Field Guide with me, doctor Michelle Duprie, judge, lawyer, court 35 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: TV anchor Ashley Wilcott. But right now, to Cheryl McCullum, 36 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCullum, this 37 00:02:54,680 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: is a particularly awful, awful way to kill or or 38 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: someone Nancy. It is beyond just the imagination what this 39 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: woman went through in the seventy eight seconds. She was 40 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: on fire. So again it's been gould thirty percent of 41 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: her body. Her skin is literally melting, her hair is 42 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: on fire, her eyelashes on fire. The amount of pain 43 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: is unimaginable. At the time of the incident, White Jonathan White, 44 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: aged twenty eight, asked to meet Jessica. Jessica Camerony's twenty five, 45 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: asked to meet her there at a Tim Horton's Intiwanda 46 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: to discuss their relationship. They had been together seven and 47 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: a half years. They have three children together, and they 48 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: grew apart for many reasons, including his jealousy, domestic abuse, 49 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: and alcoholism. The two were in the middle of a 50 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: very contentious custody battle over the children. She asked, are 51 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: you going to hurt me? Reports are that Cameron said 52 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: at the time, you know, it's so intentional in my 53 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: mind to ask you, Wilcot, because to set someone on fire, 54 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: you typically douse them with an accelerant like gasoline, lighter, fluid, 55 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: any type of excellent and then you have to take 56 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: the time to light a match and throw it on them. 57 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: This is not the spur of a moment thing. He 58 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: had to show up to that. Tom Morton's. He had 59 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: to show up with these things with him, That's right. 60 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: So you do have to have the supplies, which means 61 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: what in our legal system premeditated. You have to have 62 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: those items. You do, actually, and it's my understanding he 63 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: did douse her with the accelerant and then light it. 64 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: So I completely agree with you, Nancy, and to me, 65 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: the horrificness of this crime, that means premedit, hated, and 66 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: it means more severe charges against this me. You are 67 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: so right, Ashley Walcott. Take a listen to Spectrum News 68 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: reporter Fodia Patterson. Family members of Jessica Cameron were in 69 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: court facing her a strange boyfriend and father to their 70 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: three children, Twenty nine year old Jonathan White. White as 71 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: accused of setting twenty five year old Cameron on fire 72 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: outside of the Niagara Street Tim Horton's in the city 73 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: of Tonawanda, where they both worked. The first witness to 74 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: the stand was Jessica's co worker Peter Thompson, who recalls 75 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: hearing her screams at the dumpster pen, where prosecutors say 76 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: White lord Jessica poured gasoline over her head and lit 77 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: her on fire. I heard a blood curdling scream and 78 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: saw a ball of fire, Thompson told prosecutors during opening statements. 79 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: State prosecutors said the estranged couple were together for seven 80 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: years before they split. According to prosecutors, Jessica moving on 81 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 1: to a new relationship was the possible motive for the attack. 82 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: On December seventeenth, twenty eighteen, Assistant District Attorney Beca Snarl 83 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,239 Speaker 1: said for seventy eight seconds, her entire body was engulfed 84 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: in flames. Jessica suffered third degree burns all over her body. 85 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: White was also injured in the attack, with burns still 86 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: visible on his neck. You know. To Stephen Lampley, detective 87 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: and author of Outside Your Door, I've actually seen this 88 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: on several occasions and they're all horrific with life changing scarring. 89 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: Many of the women die because they just can't survive 90 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: that degree of burning across their body. And Steve Lampley, 91 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: I've noticed it's always a man on a woman, and 92 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: it's always over some perceived jealousy or a breakup. Steve Lampley, 93 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: have you ever seen this before? Nancy? It happens a lot, 94 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: a lot more than people do realize. All I can 95 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: say to is is. And I want to address your listeners. 96 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: If you're in a relationship like this, get the h 97 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: out of it. Don't become a statistic, don't become of 98 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: a but yes, Nancy, this happens quite often. Joining me 99 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: right now. Doctor Michelle d Pre, medical examiner out of 100 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: South Carolina and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor 101 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: Dupre describe what this sort of attack with accelerant and 102 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: fire does to a person's body and why people typically 103 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: die after this type of attack. This is really a 104 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: horrendous attack fire. It is. It's scary for one thing, 105 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: and it does so much damage. It does tissue damage, 106 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: and of course with clothing on the body. And if 107 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: there is an accelerant, which usually there is, it just 108 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: sits there and soaks in and so the fire stays 109 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: longer and longer and burns different layers of our skin. 110 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: And the more layers of skin that are burned, of course, 111 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: the more significant the damage and the harder it is 112 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: to overcome. That. We lose a lot of moisture, a 113 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: lot of fluid from burn injuries, and that is one 114 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: of the reasons that patients often do not recover when 115 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: so much of their body is attacked by fire. Well, 116 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense to me. Dot d free. You 117 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: lose moisture, so you die, Yes, you do because you 118 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: are not able to keep your cells and your body's 119 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: functions hydrated, and so the body then begins to just 120 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: simply shut down again. The more surface area that is 121 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: injured will lead to that dotor d free. Could you 122 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: explain the difference between first second third degree burns, sure, Nancy. 123 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: First degree burns are what we might see if we 124 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: have a little bit of redness on our skin, maybe 125 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: we touched something that's hot, but only for a moment. 126 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: Second degree burns are when they actually begin to blister 127 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: and a little water blister will appear. Third degree burns 128 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: are much more significant. Third degree burns are certainly red, 129 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: they go through more layers of the skin, and then 130 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: there's actually something that we cause fourth degree burns, which 131 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: is charring down to the bone. At third degree burns, 132 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: the nerve endings are actually non existent. And her degree 133 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: burns are not painful because it has destroyed so much. 134 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: About to shoot to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Coal 135 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: Case Research Institute, joining us, Cheryl, I'm sitting here racking 136 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: my brain and every time there has been a fire 137 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: or accelrat attack on a person, it's always domestic relations Nancy, 138 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: this is clearly a DOMENICI violet situation. They had pass 139 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: violets in their relationship. There was self harming in this relationship. 140 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: I beat the jealousy that day. Wait a minute, what 141 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: do you mean by self harming in this relationship. Well, 142 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: one report said that because of his anger and jealousy 143 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: that he would self harm as well. So again he 144 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: had displayed to her more than one time that he 145 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: would be violent toward her and himself. In this scene, though, 146 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: it was a Monday, so we had all weekend to plan. 147 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: He lew her over to a dumster so that he 148 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: because you know, he could conceal what he was fixing 149 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: and doing. That's the reason nobody witnessed it. They just 150 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: saw the flash of plans. And I think it's very 151 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: significant that he's burned on his back because he was 152 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: running away and what he did first is extinguished himself. 153 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: You know what, That is very probative burn on his 154 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: back because he's running away, explained Cheryl McCollums. Well, they 155 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: said he had burns on his hands, which a lot 156 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: of times an arpanist will have because when they have 157 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: the accelrat that they're about the time somebody their hands gets, 158 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, as well saturated with it. So when he 159 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: likes the match or the lighter or whatever he's using 160 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: the throw on her, he gets burned as well. Well, 161 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: then he's burned on his back. So again that tells 162 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,359 Speaker 1: me this hero bors was running away to save himself. 163 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: He wasn't doing anything for her in those first most 164 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: critical moments, so it's not like he didn't and then 165 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: realized her crime stories with Nancy Grace to doctor Bethany Marshall, 166 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: psychoanalysis of the whole another can of worms. It's a 167 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: type of domestic abuse and violence that is actually rare, 168 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: but we're hearing more and more and more about it 169 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: every day. It's happening more and more often, and the 170 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: women are dying. And I'm sitting here ruminating every time 171 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: I've heard of an accelerant attack on someone, Almost every 172 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: time it's over a quote love relationship. It is always 173 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: over a love relationship, because I remember, as we've been 174 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: taught talking about, there's always pathological jealousy in these situations, 175 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: and you know, Nancy shaming and humiliating is a core 176 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: and central aspect of domestic abuse, shaming one for their parenting, 177 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: for how they look, for how they dress. Defacing a 178 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: woman or making her unattractive is a heightened version of that. 179 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: Where did he pour the accelerant? Where did he light 180 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: her on fire? Over her face and head? So if 181 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: you think about the pathological jealousy, he's now made her 182 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: unattractive to every other man. We don't like to think 183 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: of it this way because it seems like such an outlier. 184 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: Why would you burn somebody to make them unattractive? But 185 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: think about it. When people pour acid or they've set 186 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: somebody on fire, it is almost always from the neck up. 187 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: That is where it starts. And I would imagine, and 188 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: you use the word ruminating, I imagine he has been 189 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: ruminating on who's looking at her, who she texting? Is 190 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 1: there somebody else who thinks she's beautiful? Because this is 191 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: another thing I see in my practice in domestic violent situations. 192 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: The man always says, well, what if somebody thinks my 193 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: wife is attractive? And I feel like saying well, then 194 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: that means you're a lucky man. But of course that's 195 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: not the issue, but the idea that the woman is 196 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: even being admired by another individual is intolerable to them. 197 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: What do you make of men or women who threaten 198 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: to kill themselves or self harm in order to get 199 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: what they want in the relationship. Oh, that's a great question. 200 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: So what happens is these people to have what they 201 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: call a paranoid preoccupation that that other person's very presence 202 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: on this world, in this world, on this planet is 203 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: doing them harm in some way, is negatively affecting their 204 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: well being. So they have this oscillation of hate between 205 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: the other person and between themselves, and they start to 206 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: say to themselves at an unconscious level, well, will I 207 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: be less miserable if you're gone? Or will I be 208 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: less miserable if I'm gone. I'll take your life, now 209 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: I'll take my life. That the hatred oscillates back and forth, 210 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: and the homicidal instinct oscillates back and forth between self 211 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: and other. That that's something that's a very an important 212 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: concept in my field. But of course, the desire to 213 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: harm and hurt the other person almost always wins out. 214 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning with me, Dave Matt Crime 215 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. Start at the beginning, Dave Matt, 216 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: because I find it very interesting and I'm trying to 217 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: figure out on my own what does it mean that 218 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: he would do this in a public setting. It's kind 219 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: of like a Starbucks. It's a coffee shop. Tim Horton's explain, 220 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: Dave Matt, Well, you know, Nancy, these this couple had 221 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: a long relationship that dated back to her being in 222 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: high school. Okay, they had four children together, the first 223 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: one they gave up for adoption, and they had the 224 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: other three. But over the years, his abuse, his alcohol 225 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: use and abuse had taken its toll, and when she 226 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: finally had her fill, she was putting distance between the 227 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: two of them and had actually moved out and moved 228 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: in with her mother out of fear for the way 229 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: this man was. She felt like she was safe that 230 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: night at work because he said he was hungry and 231 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: he just wanted to talk. She thought she was safe 232 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: because it was in a public place, it was in 233 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: a parking lot, it was where they worked. I mean, 234 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: she thought everything was on her side, and a lot 235 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: has been said about She said, are you going to 236 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: hurt me? And he said yes, But she still she said, 237 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: she still thought she was safe until everything happened. What 238 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: does that mean? You know, I first met Cheryl McCollum. 239 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: I recall it was a regarding a domestic abuse initiative 240 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: that we were both king on to help battered women. 241 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: But to you, Cheryl McCollum, how often is it that 242 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: when domestic violence erupts and someone is killed or there's 243 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: an attempting murder, all the friends say, well, she was 244 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: always afraid of him. She told us this was going 245 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: to happen one day. I always hear that. Nancy Old, 246 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: some level, her gut told her this was different because 247 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: she asked him, are you going to hurt me? So 248 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: she knew something about it was different. Maybe he already 249 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: had something in his hand. Maybe it's because she wanted 250 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: to get her over behind the dumpsters, but she knew 251 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: in her gut. Now here's the thing. She still probably believed, 252 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: he surely is not going to do this in public. 253 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: We both worked here, everybody knows him. I just walked 254 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: out the meeting. We can't be that stupid. So she's 255 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: probably playing that in her head where she's talking herself 256 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: out of what she probably instinctively knows this ban's already 257 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: hurt her She's already done it multiple times, so she's 258 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: trying to get away from him. She's already in a 259 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: new relationship, but still on some levels she knew, you 260 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: know what, I think you're right to Ashley Wilcott, judge 261 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: and trial lawyer. You can find her at Ashley Wilcott 262 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: dot com or on Core TV where she is an 263 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: anchor Ashley Wilcott. She knew something was wrong. She noticed 264 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: an apple juice container sitting by the dumpster. And if 265 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: he went to that extent to put the accelerant, which 266 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: is gasoline or kerosene, it could be lighter fluid, it 267 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: could be nail polisher move or any type of an 268 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: accelerant for him to bring it there in an apple 269 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: juice container. How much planning and premeditation is that? Yeah, 270 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: I agree with you completely. So she survived, But look 271 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 1: at the amount of premeditation. I have to add this, Nancy. 272 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: Here's the problem with individuals like this and the he 273 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: made and the violence and the stalking her or my words, 274 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: because he has completely obsessed himself with this person. The 275 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: problem I have is that it doesn't matter if it's 276 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: a public place, right, it doesn't He went behind a dumpster. 277 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: He was going to do this regardless of where it was, 278 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: how visible it was, whether it was behind the dumpster, 279 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: in front of the dumpster, at the workplace or not. 280 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: He made up his mind this is what he was 281 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: going to do. He doesn't care how public the place 282 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: is or not. Which is why victims of violence of 283 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: this type unfortunately in domestic violence or at such risk 284 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: of this type of criminal. Two special guests with me, 285 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall's psychoanalyst out of la He had about 286 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: one to two inches of gasoline and an apple juice 287 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: container and set her on fire. What does this attack, 288 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: this type of attack tell us about the mindset of 289 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: Jonathan why Well heard the phrase burn, baby burn. I 290 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: mean this speaks to me of rage that is so 291 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: severe that he is really completely unable to self regulate. 292 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: I think he is living in a constant state of rejection. 293 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: He probably was in a state of rejection even when 294 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: she was sleeping in his bed every night, because some 295 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: people get stuck in the feelings of rejection and then 296 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: they can never take in anything good or positive about 297 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: the other person. But of course his rejection was at 298 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: a very pathological level. It tells me that he was 299 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: fixated on her in a paranoid way, that he did 300 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: not want to think about anybody else as a potential 301 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: love partner. I'm sure he was probably cheating on her too, 302 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: because that's a form of domestic abuse. I think you're 303 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: cheating on me, so I'm going to cheat on you. 304 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: He did it at work, so he did it in 305 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: a place where she gained satisfaction and autonomy. Remember, another 306 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: aspect of domestic abuse is either withholding money or venting 307 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: the victim from working. So you have a constellation of 308 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: all of these things that are building up. And I 309 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: think the final thing is that even in so called 310 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: crimes of passion, homicide is contemplated at an unconscious level, 311 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: if not a conscious it never just nobody ever snaps Nancy, 312 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: but this was contemplated at a conscious level. He really 313 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: wanted her disfigured and or worse gone crime stories with 314 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is what else we know. We're learning 315 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: that they apparently struggled with the bottle. She tried to 316 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: take it out of his hand. He pulls out a 317 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: lighter and then sets her on fire. It's just overwhelming 318 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: the pain, the pain that he inflicted on her. I 319 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: don't even know if she had a chance to even 320 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: fight back, to try to get out of her clothes. 321 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: I mean to Dave Matt, what more do we know? 322 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: What we know, Nancy, is that the surveillance video at 323 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: Tim Horton's actually shows her ripping off her clothing. It 324 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: also shows something else. It shows that Jonathan White put 325 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: out his own flames because he caught on fire as well. 326 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: He used snow and other stuff to tried to put 327 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: the flames out on himself. And then she was fully engulfed, 328 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, thirty percent of her body, and she's ripping 329 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: off clothes and everything else. Her own testimony, she said 330 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: that she couldn't see anything but flames and the intense pain. 331 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: She said the only thing she could hear was what 332 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: sounded like the crackling of wood burning on a fire. 333 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: Oh my stars, take a listen to this now, da 334 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: John Flyn want in comment on a motive. While I 335 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: always make it a point to say that mister White 336 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: is innocent, unto approven guilty, I obviously believe he's guilty 337 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: right now or I want to have arrayed him and 338 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: I will do whatever I can to get this poor 339 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: girl Justice. Cameron's family tells us she's been put into 340 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: a medically induced coma to help her heal. She did 341 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: undergo surgery today. Now there will be a vigil for 342 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: her tomorrow night at six thirty at Clinton Park. What 343 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: do we know about why someone will be put into 344 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: a medically induced coma? To doctor Michelle Dupre, South Carolina 345 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Sealed Guide Why a 346 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: medically induced coma, Michelle, So that that person's body will 347 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: take the time to heal and rest. In doing that, 348 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: your body doesn't have to work as hard and it's 349 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: able to actually heals. I want to go to Stephen Lampley, detective, 350 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: author of Outside Your Door on Amazon. Stephen Lampley, you 351 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: heard the part about surveillance video. What more do you 352 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: think will be used to prove the case? Y? I 353 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: don't know that they they really need anymore. You got 354 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: this video is the ultimo. Usually if if you've got 355 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: a good video and then you restricted they do. I 356 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: have not seen it myself. I don't know that you 357 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: read all about a whole lot more, Nancy on this case, 358 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: you were just hearing WKBW Buffalo reporter Nikki Dmitri. Now 359 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: take a listen to w ivbfour Marissa Perlman. Meanwhile, Cameron 360 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: is alive, but every day is a battle. Family members 361 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: and the community have been rallying behind her, posting updates 362 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: on Facebook. The district attorney calls this an unfortunate incident. 363 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: She fortunately survived, but like I said, she's going to have, 364 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, a significant disfigurement. I don't want to get 365 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: in specifics about what her medical condition is. By she's 366 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: going to be in bad shape and she's going to 367 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: live with this or rest of her life. But we've 368 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: learned Cameron's injuries are severe. Her mother says she's in 369 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: a medically induced coma to help control her pain. She 370 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: has no skin on much of her upper body, including 371 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: her face and her hands. Cameron has already undergone four 372 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: surgeries in just the past two weeks. Doctors put in 373 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: a trick on Christmas Eve. This gives her a stable 374 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: airway during recovery and the upcoming surgeries she'll have to face. 375 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: This poor victim is also still at ACMC. She's in 376 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: the burn unit still and she has had multiple surgeries 377 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: so far and will continue to have surgeries. She's going 378 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: to survive, but she's going to be in bad shape. 379 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: Her mother tells us Cameron could be in the burn 380 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: unit for at least nine months. You're hearing the district 381 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: Attorney John Flynn speaking to Cheryl McCollum, director of the 382 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: Coal Case Research Institute. Forensics expert Cheryl McCollum described the 383 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: injuries that she sustained. Nancy. She has burned about her 384 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: face and her neck, and her chests and her hands. 385 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: Her hands were so severely burned that her fingers had 386 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: to be amputated. She had to learn to walk again, 387 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: to talk again, to open her mouth and her eyes 388 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: again because her skin was so just destroyed around those areas. 389 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: I mean, she's had twelve surgeries to date, and what 390 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: she has had to go through over the course of 391 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: ten months has been just medieval. Let me ask you 392 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: this to doctor Michelle Dupree, why would her fingers have 393 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: to be amputated? Specifically, they're obviously at the periphery or 394 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: the ends of our body, and they will be the 395 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: ones last in mind to get the nutrients and the 396 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: hydration that's needed. And so they're also very small, and 397 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: so because they are fire consumes them a lot easier 398 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: then it would contended larger parts of our bob. You know, 399 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: we heard the district attorney talking about motive. Remember a 400 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: motive is not necessary in any case. The state isn't 401 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: required to go into the defensive mind and figure out 402 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: their thinking. Take a listen to WKBW Jeff Russack. This 403 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: dumpster behind a ton of one to Tim Hortons is 404 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: where police believe a custody dispute turned into attempted murderer. 405 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: At three thirty Monday afternoon, a twenty eight year old 406 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: man texted his twenty five year old girlfriend, who works 407 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: at this Tim Horton's off Niagara Street. He asked her 408 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: to come to the dumpsters to talk. She went into 409 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: the corral area where the two dumpsters were, and he 410 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: douster was some type of a flammable liquid. Police say 411 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: he sparked a lighter. Both caught on fire. Police and 412 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: someone with Tim Horton's were able to put the fire 413 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: out with fire extinguishers. The pair have two children, a 414 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: four and two year old. Police were called to resolve 415 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: a custody dispute between the two this past week. Evidently 416 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: the boyfriend was agitated enough to take it to this extreme. 417 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: Both are at the ECMC Burn Unit the City of Tonawanda. 418 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: Police say they haven't seen anything quite like this before. 419 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: We've all gone on domestics multiple times, repeat calls, repeat domestics, 420 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: you know, where both parties can get really agitated and 421 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: a lot of times serious and arrest. But whatever stem 422 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: from this one, this person really took it to the extreme. 423 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: As for the two children involved in this custom to dispute, 424 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: according to police, they're spending the night at a relative's 425 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: house right now. She's in a medically induced coma because 426 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: they want her to heal and because of the pain, 427 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: and and I guess we're talking to years. I mean, 428 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 1: I don't know how long in the hospital. It's going 429 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: to be months, maybe a year. Susan Holler Harshlack is 430 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: a friend of the Cameron family. She says, the twenty 431 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: five year old burn victim, Jessica is fighting for her 432 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: life and her recovery is going to be a long road. 433 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: Who's encouragement coming to Jessica. You know, she's a joyous person. 434 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: She was always smiling, always there for her three boys. 435 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: Jessica has been an ECMC since Monday, where she is 436 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: in critical condition. It was around three thirty Monday afternoon 437 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: when police say she was doused inflammable liquid by her 438 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: boyfriend and set on fire. Police say the crime, which 439 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: they're calling domestic, took place during Jessica's shift at Tim 440 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: Horton's on Niagara Street. I'm thankful that those children that 441 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,959 Speaker 1: didn't happen in a home where the children were, you know, 442 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: they were spared. You're hearing WKBW Hannah Bueller. Yes, it 443 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: didn't happen where the children were. They were spared, but 444 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: they know what happened to Mommy. Take a listen again 445 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: to Hannah Bulla. It's exactly the violent situation. Family friends 446 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: say Jessica was trying to escape from last week when 447 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: she packed up her three young children and left the 448 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: home they shared with the suspect. But because she left 449 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: in a hurry, family friends say her three children are 450 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: without much. The family needs clothing, diapers, and gift cards. 451 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: They had to leave everything behind and Jessica's mom now 452 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: has custody right now, there's you know, no income. You know, 453 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: Jessica works full time mom of three boys. Donations from 454 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: the community have been coming in droves and the family 455 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: is very grateful for the support they tell me. As 456 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: for the suspect, police say he accidentally set himself on 457 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: fire in the process, and he is recovering tonight crime 458 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. You know, Cheryl McCollum, director of 459 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: Colchis Research Institute, You and I did a lot of 460 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: work with battered women in inner city Atlanta. Have you 461 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: noticed that so many violent attacks and murders occur when 462 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: the woman's trying to finally leave you here here that 463 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: Jessica to him just one week before this attack. She 464 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: left in a hurry in order to try to avoid violence, 465 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: and she packed hardly anything, just trying to get away. Nancy. 466 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: That's one of the saddest things about when a woman 467 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: tries to leave a batter relationship, she's in the most 468 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: danger of once she leaves. Once she leaves that home, 469 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: she formally leaves him what she gets the protective order. 470 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: That's when she's in the most danger. There's no question. Well, 471 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: Yen Ashley Willcott, judge, trial lawyer or anchor at Court TV, 472 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: what about it? Ashe listen, I don't know if I 473 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: can say this on Aaron you can leave me, but 474 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: what a po you know, what as because I can't 475 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: even imagine someone choosing to do this to disfigure yes, 476 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: attempted murder, but also to disfigure her think about her children, 477 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: the mother they knew they will no longer have, the 478 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: mother they knew. She looks different, she's lost her fingers, 479 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: she had to relearn how to do all these things. 480 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: Thank goodness, she's recovered. But Nancy, he has taken away 481 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: from her so much of herself. To daughter Bethany Marshall, 482 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: she's trying to leave. The week before, she hastily grabs 483 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: stuff and left. She didn't even take much, trying to 484 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: quote avoid violence. Well, and then this, why is it? 485 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: Why is this the danger time? When you're finally trying 486 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: to leave and you're doing it, you're getting away Because 487 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: as the woman is about to leave, she has independence 488 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: in the world. It sparks all kinds of negative fantasies 489 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: in the man. As I was saying earlier, what if 490 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: she meets somebody, What if somebody thinks she's beautiful? What 491 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: if she has an affair, what if she has sexual 492 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: interest in somebody? And these feelings are intolerable, And usually 493 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: the man is tightly controlling the woman because he cannot 494 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: control his own feelings, right, we control others. Woe, We 495 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: cannot really control how we feel, so that when the 496 00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: woman exits the home, he becomes disregulated, not control himself 497 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: on multiple levels. We know he was an alcoholic, perhaps 498 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: he was drinking. We know he was a cutter of 499 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: some sort because when they went to their high school prom, 500 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: he cut himself and rubbed the blood all over her. 501 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: But I want to say something about who why wait wait, wait, 502 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: wait wait wa what at the high school the prom? 503 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: If he cuts himself and rubs blood on her? Yes, ah, 504 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: so he was doing that even when they were in 505 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: high school. What a manipula? You know she should have 506 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: left him, right then, your BF boyfriend cuts himself and 507 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: rubs the blood on you. I mean, all he'd seeing 508 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: me is elbows and tailhole. I'd be way gone. So 509 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: why would she stay? Doctor Bethany? And I'm not putting 510 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: blame on her. That's the age old question, Cheryl. Isn't 511 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: it true, Ashley? People say why did she stay? What 512 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: about a Bethany? Okay, We'll go ahead, Cheryl jump in, Cheryl. 513 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,239 Speaker 1: If people always say why did she say? Why does 514 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: she say? Women often confuse when I talked to domestic 515 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: violence victims, they love him, They really, truly are in 516 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: love with this man. She's had seven years with him, 517 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: she's grown up with him, they have four children together. 518 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: She on some level again believes she can love him 519 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: through whatever these demons are. She's wrong, of course, but 520 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: that's what she believes. And in this person, the best 521 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: predictor of future, you know, crimes, is going to be 522 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: his past behavior. She should have known, her mama should 523 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: have known. Family violence abuse Domestic Abuse Hotline toll free 524 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: eight seven seven eight nine zero seven seven eight eight 525 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott judge, trial lawyer, Court TV anchor, You and 526 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,479 Speaker 1: I have children. We've been ingrained. It's ingrained in us 527 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: to believe love conquers all, Love conquers all. You know what, 528 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: what about the other love, the love of children. If 529 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: you love your children, you don't want them growing up 530 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: in this. You've got a breakaway. And she did breakaway. 531 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: She left, She did everything right, She packed tourtally anything 532 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: she'd beat, a hasty retreat. She got out of their ash. 533 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: And that's the worst part, that's the tragedy of it all. 534 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: She was protecting her children. She picked her children finally 535 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: over him. Doing all of the right things, taking all 536 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 1: of the right steps, and yet this happened. And never 537 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: blame the victim. And domestic violence, we all know that. 538 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: But I am going to say this, and that is 539 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: something one of the other panelists said, trust your gut. 540 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: So if you have been a victim of domestic violence 541 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: and that person who committed that violence against you wants 542 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: to meet with you, wants to see you, wants to 543 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: make it right, and I'll meet you in a public 544 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: place and It'll be okay, and we have kids together. Resist, 545 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: do whatever you have to to resist, because these individuals 546 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: will continue to commit offenses of violence. You know, that's 547 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: a whole other can of arms. Back circling back to 548 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall's Psychoanalans joining us out of la It's 549 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: one thing for an adult to say, Okay, yeah, I 550 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: can take your crap, but my children, I'm out of here. 551 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let them witness this. And she did it. 552 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: She left. Jessica Cameron, just twenty five years old, summoned 553 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: the strength to finally leave, and that is when he 554 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: doused her with gasoline hidden in an apple juice container 555 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: and set her on fire. She goes up in front 556 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: of that jury and testifies with no fingers. Doctor Bethany, well, 557 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: explain and oh, Bethany, listen to this. This all reportedly 558 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: happened at Tim Horton's on Niagara Street, where Cameron works. 559 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: Or co workers who also know the suspect are shocked. 560 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: He actually does like our truck, so you know, a 561 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: short shift or whatever. But when you have a conversation 562 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: with him, you would have you never thought anything of this. 563 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: We had no idea. We knew that they were having 564 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: a little problems or whatever, but we had no idea 565 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: the severity of it. To you, Dodtor Bethanie Marshall. In 566 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: so many cases, you know that there are red flags, well, 567 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: sugars the deal. Nancy. Women are as confused often when 568 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: they first leave as they are when they are in 569 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: the domestic violent situation, and when they have children, they 570 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: feel that they have to maintain contact with the abuser 571 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: for the sake of the children. I see this all 572 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: the time, and I will say to the woman you left, 573 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: you had the courage, you have children, you never ever 574 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: ever have to talk to him again. And they'll say, 575 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: well what about the kids? And I'm being a bad mother, 576 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: and I will say no, you never have to talk 577 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: to or see them again. There is an app and 578 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 1: that's called Family Wizard. I don't know if you've heard 579 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: about it, but it is an app through which you 580 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: can communicate about your children with an ex partner or abuser. 581 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: The Family Wizard has a tone meter, so and it's 582 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: very sensitive, so if the abuser starts to become terse, angry, abusive, 583 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: it will it will alert you, but it will also 584 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: document all of that. It also puts the abuser on 585 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: the alert that everything he's putting or saying into that 586 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: app could be turned over to the police. So, women, 587 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: if you have left this, pretend this person is gone 588 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: and dead and that they are no longer on the 589 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: face of the planet, or they are dead to you. 590 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: Never ever talk with them, never meet with them. Your 591 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: children need you to themselves. To our friend, Cheryl mccollin, 592 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: director of the Cole Case Research Institute, Cheryl, this woman, 593 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: just twenty five gets up somehow medical miracle after being 594 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: in a medically induced coma twelve surgeries, and she testifies 595 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: in front of the jury with no fingers. Our fingers 596 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: now amputated, tell me how powerful her testimony is. It 597 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: was everything. Not only did she take the stand with 598 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: all the courage in the world, she articulated that day beautifully. 599 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: She talked about exactly what happened, and she again painted 600 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: this picture for the jury. There was no way they 601 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: could miss the gasoline in He chose apple juice. He 602 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: did that because from a distance it would look like 603 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: apple juice and not gasoline. Everything he did was to 604 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: con her, mislead her in order to kill her. That's 605 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 1: what his intent was. He failed, by the grace God. 606 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: But this woman Nancy again as a two year old, 607 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: that she's not going to be able to teach to 608 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 1: tie their shoes. She's not gonna be able to mother 609 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 1: them the same way that she could have. Every time 610 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: she goes gaut in public, every time how she meets 611 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: someone new, her distigurement is going to be what leads 612 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: everything in her life now. So what he has taken 613 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: from her, she has a life sense. To Dave Matt 614 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, where does the case 615 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: stand now? Well, actually, we'll get sentencing just after the 616 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,720 Speaker 1: first of the year. I think January fourth, twenty twenty 617 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: is the schedule, and he's looking at possibly twenty five 618 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: years in prison. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace 619 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,