1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. 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I signed type our 37 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: current driver October twenty twenty one. We know the end. 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: We've got some idea what happened in the middle. I 39 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: want to know about the beginning. When did the switch 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: flip to where the only resolution was to go and 41 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: kill them all. This is the Pike Did Massacre returned 42 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: to Pike County season three, episode eleven. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 43 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and 44 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. Recently, Stephanie Lydecker, forensic expert Joseph Morgan, and 45 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: I were invited to speak at an event called Crime 46 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: Con in Las Vegas, Nevada. Crime Con is a large 47 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: expo event where true crime fans can meet and discuss 48 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: cases from their favorite crime shows and podcasts. We were 49 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: honored to attend and were able to record a Q 50 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: and A on their stage with fans from across the country. 51 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: George and Billy Wagner have pleaded not guilty to charges 52 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: of murdering the Rodent family. This discussion was meant to 53 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: serve as a conversation of things we've covered in the 54 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: podcast and heard from our sources. Because the trials are 55 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: still upcoming, much of it remains speculation based on the 56 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: criminal allegations against the accused and their actions. It's important 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: to keep in mind that all parties are innocent until 58 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: they are proven guilty or enter a guilty plea. Ladies 59 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, welcome to a live Q and a episode 60 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: of The Piked and Masker. Now, please welcome to the 61 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: stage Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Leidecker, and Joseph Morgan. Yeah, and 62 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: thank you, Luisa, Courtney Armstrong. It's a lot easier in 63 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: my closet versus out with all of you. But you're 64 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: such a welcoming audience, and we again are just grateful 65 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: you're here. And I yeah, we are grateful. Yeah, thank 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: you for even being here. We're true crime fans in 67 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: this particular case I think has gotten into our personal 68 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: DNA in a way I can't quite describe. We have 69 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: a few questions that people have written in via social 70 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: media or in various ways, so we were going to 71 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: ask some of the most popular ones and then we're 72 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: excited to hear any additional ones. So a lot of 73 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: people asked before the arrests happened, what did you think 74 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: had happened that night to the eight members of the 75 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: road and family who were murdered? And is there a 76 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: difference now after the neighboring family, the Wagners, have been arrested. 77 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: So Stephanie, for me personally when we first got involved 78 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: with the case, we thought it was the cartel or 79 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: something nefarious unrelated to the Wagner family, or that there 80 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: was no such thing as a killer mother, or that 81 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: a family could do that to somebody who they knew 82 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: so well. And they say truth is stranger than fiction, right, So, 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: as it turns out, we might have been wrong. Although 84 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: this season, I will say and Joseph, we all, this 85 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: is all we talk about. There are new theories and 86 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: there's you know, new information that we have access to 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: now that kind of shakes a lot of those theories up. 88 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: We're frankly more confused than ever. Yeah, And one thing 89 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: that I think my opinion is evolving on stuff said. 90 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: I also thought it had to be a professional who 91 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: navigated for different locations in one night for eight people. 92 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: But as bits and pieces have come out in trials 93 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: and with different motions back and forth, I'm definitely inch 94 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: by inch more convinced that the Wagners they indeed have 95 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: the right people behind bars. Yeah, I gotta tell you, 96 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: y'all listen for a second. And just I've several people 97 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: ask me this question actually too, since I've been here 98 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: relative to Piketon, and I think it's an interesting idea. 99 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: If you're the Wagoners, what's that conversation like in a 100 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: car if you're on the way to four separate locations. Yeah, 101 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: they were allegedly having murder meetings, like a family of 102 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: four was enjoying dinner and talking about murdering a family. 103 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: The Yeah, and I got a few guests a year ago. 104 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: Two years ago, I went up to the crime scenes 105 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: to take a look in the home that the Wagoners 106 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: had previously occupied. It's this beautiful, green, lush area and 107 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: it's this, you know, this multi story old farmhouse with 108 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: pastors behind it. And you know, I sat there and 109 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: I was outside the home, and I was thinking, So, 110 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: it's in this home where you've celebrated Christmas and Thanksgiving 111 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: and everything as a family, and maybe you're sitting around 112 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: at table and maybe talking about completely and totally ending 113 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: a familial line at that point in time. Just let 114 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: that sink in just for a second. And this is 115 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: a conversation that you're having across the dinner table. And 116 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 1: then that that night you know that I know you guys, 117 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: and I've talked about It's it's you know, for me 118 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: as an investigator, it's it's the timing element. How do 119 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: you get this down so that you go from point 120 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: A to point D and you don't get caught. How 121 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: is it that you do this and that has As 122 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: an investigator, it left me scratching my head and I'm 123 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: with staff. The first time I heard it, I'm thinking, yeah, 124 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: this is some kind of organized crime head. They've come in. 125 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: They they've they've angered the wrong person, and I think 126 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: in this case they it looks like they may have 127 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: angered the wrong family. And not to mention, that's four people. 128 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: We all follow true crime for a living, right, You 129 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: guys are here because you have this brain to be 130 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: able to solve things. Four people sticking to the same story, 131 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: So grown adults, four of them allegedly decided to get 132 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: into a car and go to one house, then go 133 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: to another house, get back in the car, then go 134 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: to another house, get back in the car. At what 135 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: point does one of them not say no or enough, 136 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: We've murdered too many to get through four locations in 137 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: one night, and to know that it's just potentially people 138 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: who many say are lovely and never would know it 139 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: in a million years. You know, we want to be 140 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: able to spot the boogeyman for ourselves, they don't fit 141 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: the bill. And in one of our trips, and we've 142 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: had the benefit of going several times over the years 143 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,359 Speaker 1: as we've been just can't let this case go, obviously, 144 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: and we've driven several times from as Josef said, from 145 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: A to B to C two D. Not that we 146 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: know the order, no one, no one knows what. No 147 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: one knows the order yet and just yeah, the consciousness 148 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: of Stephanie said, you start the car back up and 149 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: sit back down, you know, and then to take a 150 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: longer road because three of the houses are very close together, 151 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: but then when you go to kenneth Rowden it's more 152 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: than ten minutes. So the consciousness, there's no spur of 153 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: the moment. You are simmering in what you've done, not 154 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: to mention waking up the next day. All four of 155 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: them lived together and then woke up the next day, 156 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: took showers and then pretended that they were desperate to 157 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: find out who did it. Had the nerve to talk 158 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: to press and give interviews and say we missed these victims. 159 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: And honestly, that's a hard thing to do also for 160 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: people just zipping it and not flubbing their alibi, you know, 161 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: to that point, this is one of the things that 162 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: has chilled me to my bone. And that is when 163 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: they got up the next morning, this family had essentially 164 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: been eradicated. However, someone knew that there were two babies 165 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: that were wallowing, yes, in blood, the mother's blood in 166 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: that ironman left behind a five day old. Yeah, I mean, 167 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: can you begin to fathom that. I've seen you know, 168 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: I've seen my sheriff cases in Atlanta, New Orleans, you know, 169 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: working for the NME in the corner. But I'd never 170 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: you know, when they told me this, you think you've 171 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: seen a thing or two. But as as the team 172 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: began to explain it to me, I began to try 173 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: to put the pieces together forensically. And of course the 174 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: dad and me, the grandpa and me. You know, I 175 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: begin to think about this, and I'm thinking, who, who, 176 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: who could do this? Who could be this callism? And Joseph, 177 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: He's done a beautiful job. But you know, maybe as 178 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: a death investigator you can talk a little bit about 179 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: the types of shots or the amount of shots. Yeah. Yeah, 180 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: we do have some solid information relative to the number 181 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: of gunshot wounds that were involved. And there is a 182 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: This is not an execution style classically, as Stephanie had 183 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: pointed out, where you think about somebody kneeling before you 184 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: and you shoot them in the back of the head. 185 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: A new mother is essentially shot in the face five times. 186 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: One of the rounds actually entered her eye, and so 187 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: that gives you relative to orientation relative to the victim 188 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: to the muzzle of the weapon. They are literally standing 189 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,599 Speaker 1: down the long axis of the barrel. If she was 190 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: still alive at the point in time. And again we 191 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: have not been able to go through the autopsy report 192 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: in details, so we don't know where, like for what 193 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: wound tracks still have in dwelling hemorrhage, which is one 194 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: of the things that we look at to see if 195 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: an individual has sustained a postmortem or an animortem insult 196 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: at that point in time. But she was looking down 197 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: the barrel of this She's in bed at this moment time. 198 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,599 Speaker 1: And the picture that this creates is that an individual 199 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: has gotten onto the bed or adjacent to the bed 200 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: and fired directly into her face. That there may have 201 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: been an awareness they may have shown up also with 202 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: flashlights to kind of blind or disorient at that point 203 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: in time, you can imagine with your in total darkness 204 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: for a moment, kind of imagine in your mind that 205 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: you're in total deep sleep and suddenly a flashlight is 206 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: in your face. There might be screaming involved, Your newborn 207 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: baby is cradled in your arms immediately adjacent to you, 208 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: and maybe for a second you see a flash and 209 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: then your life ends. But it doesn't end simply there, 210 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: because they continue to fire over and over and over again. 211 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: We've heard terms like homemade silencers being created. And also 212 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: an interesting little caveat is that we've also heard the 213 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: term brass catcher. And for those of you that are 214 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: not familiar with firearms, if you're using a semi automatic firearm, 215 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: it's going to eject brass, spent brass. The ideas to 216 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: catch the brass so that not only are you trying 217 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: to muffle the sound, because there's not really any such 218 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: thing as a silencer, it's a suppressor. You're trying to 219 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: muffle the sound, and then you're trying to catch all 220 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: of the brass so that you cannot leave anything that 221 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: can be traced back forensically at that point in time, 222 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: because we can look at spent casings along the same 223 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: line as we do ballistic examinations on spent rounds. It's 224 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: not quite as accurate. You've got extraction marks soft brass, 225 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: but you can tie them back in a general sort 226 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: of matter to a particular manufacturer, so's they came prepared. 227 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: That's what we're talking about. I have a question right here. 228 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: So watching Jake Wagner plead guilty in court, did you 229 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: guys see any kind of nonverbal signs that maybe he 230 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: was ashamed, had regret, because I think I did, especially 231 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: when they call that a name. Okay, so you guys 232 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: do think maybe we had to come to Jesus moment 233 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: in prison. I couldn't. I literally couldn't believe it. And 234 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: it's funny you're saying maybe he was showing remorse. Listen, 235 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: it's a facial thing and you can read it different ways. 236 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: I saw it as a smirk whatever that means, I 237 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: don't know. Smiles. Yeah, I found it revolting his reaction, 238 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: I can tell you that. Yeah. And it's just about 239 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: the heat up because trials are starting and we now 240 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: have new information from Angela and even Angela Wagner. We 241 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 1: now it's very rare. Well, we all know we all 242 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: worked on the Nancy Gray series together. That's how we 243 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: met Joseph. So we all were raised in the house 244 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: of true crime, and you know, by the best. It 245 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: is very rare to see that many women involved in 246 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: a case this violence. It's very rare to see women 247 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: allowing that level of violence against other women, let alone 248 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: other mothers, let alone other mothers holding their children. It 249 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: is a rare thing. And now to know that Angela 250 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: Wagner was buying silencer equipments at Walmart looking like just 251 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: one of us. She looks so normal, She's buying silencers 252 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: for her kids to go murder people. It's unfathomable. Really, yeah, 253 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: it is. And there's there was recently a hearing, Daubard 254 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: hearing as it's referred to, and it's kind of the 255 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: measure of the evidence and the veracity of the evidence 256 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: or the validity of the evidence that's being put forward, 257 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: and it had to do with shoe print evidence. And 258 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: so what has come out is apparently that mom had 259 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: gone to Walmart and bought a very specific type of 260 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: shoe and again premeditation going to thinking about this, what 261 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: can we buy that's new that is not going to 262 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: be traced back specifically to us, because there's nowhere patterns. 263 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: The shoes are new at this point in time. It's 264 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: not like they're worn down, and you can tell if 265 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: somebody can pronate or supernate and all those things we 266 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: look at and forensic footwear. These are brand new, and 267 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: maybe they had enough thought about this to go and 268 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: purchase these shoes. And of course we've got trials coming up, 269 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: and we'll see how this plays out as it goes forward. 270 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 271 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: a moment. Oh, Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast 272 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in 273 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most eligible 274 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he did 275 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was perfect 276 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. He shouted 277 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: to the point where she went unconscious. Bob could lie 278 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody 279 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how 280 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: to fight back. I wanted him to pay for his crime. 281 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest, 282 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit 283 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: on him. I would call him and I would say, 284 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. I will always hound 285 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: you and haunt you. You can listen to the girlfriends 286 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 287 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. What nay hell is going 288 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: on here? Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a 289 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: situation like this. I just thought it was just a 290 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. I 291 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 292 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 293 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Thou art Ricin and somebody 294 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth, 295 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: like this is evil and the only person who can 296 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 297 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 298 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, things are going to happen. To 299 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: speak out disgrace through our gun. Evil should be prosecuted 300 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: when power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. 301 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the whistleblowers. On the iHeartRadio app, 302 00:17:55,359 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 303 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of 304 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning 305 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to 306 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things. People like me have 307 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. 308 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. 309 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: They will take things away. And I can only hope 310 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment or you 311 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get 312 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home 313 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: in one piece. And so the fact that we're here 314 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 315 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 316 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 317 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 318 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Laverne 319 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever 320 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share 321 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: LA's reputation not so great. People from LA will have 322 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: a very superficial, nice conversation with you, and I won't 323 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 1: lift a finger to help you to people represent vapidity, 324 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: stops that like oh the best, calls like oh shoot. 325 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: As someone born and raised here, I can tell you 326 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: there's much more to LA than this. My name is 327 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: James Kim, and I'm the creator of a new anthology 328 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: fiction podcast, call You Feeling This. It's ten different stories 329 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: about La and the real people who make up this city. 330 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: What did you listen to my message? Who were just 331 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: trying to get bought? I think I was just freaking 332 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: out because I'm scared by connecting with each other. I'm 333 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: going to be a father. Ye Are you Feeling This? 334 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: A fiction podcast mixtape about love? Listen to it on 335 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app podcast or wherever you get your podcast. 336 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: Bringing it back to those shoes that Angela bought, So 337 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: just to set the stage and remind people who have 338 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: listened or inform people who haven't. The accused family, the 339 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: Wagoners is mother Angela late forties, I believe she's fifty now, 340 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: Father Billy, and their two sons in their twenties, So 341 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: just to set the stage, and you know, Stephanie started 342 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: talking about how angela plan and she physically bought stuff 343 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: for this murder. They have her own surveillance at Walmart 344 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: buying it. And you know a lot of people have 345 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: asked about all of the mothers involved in this case 346 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: and what our thoughts are on Stephanie, if you want 347 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: to speak to mothers and how they play into this. 348 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: What kind of a screwing mother would allow allegedly her 349 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: sons to murder a plan she puts in place then 350 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: tells them all to zip it so they can all 351 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: go about their lives. Or we never heard of a 352 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: killer family. Again, we're all true crime people. Very rare 353 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: for a family to kill together. Adults on top of it, 354 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: who were functional members of the plan, like everybody liked them. 355 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: We heard very nice things about them. And to know 356 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: that Angela Wagner, by her own admission at this point, 357 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: was actually the one that planned the whole thing. So 358 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: if she wants custody of her granddaughter, her big plan 359 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: is to make her own sons murder. I won't get 360 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: Joseph started on this, but Joseph's my most we think 361 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: he's the most interesting person alive for the record. YEA, 362 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: the notion that the authorities, the sheriff specifically who's currently 363 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: behind bars for taking bribes and unrelated cases. They moved 364 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: all of the crime scenes so we all know if 365 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: there was a crime happening right this second here, god forbid, 366 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: the doors would shut, the police would be here, nothing 367 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: would be touched, right, we would preserve this sacred crime scene. 368 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: How about the fact that four locations they literally put 369 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: the homes on a truck and moved it across town, 370 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: pretty much guaranteeing that nothing is sacred from a forensic standpoint, 371 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 1: which if they had gone to trial, had Jake not confessed, 372 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: they might have gotten away with it simply because a 373 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: good lawyer would have said they tampered with evidence. That's 374 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: when Joseph got involved. When again Joseph through Nancy, we 375 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: were like, Joseph, this makes no sense and just another 376 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: thing on the evidentiary handling of these crime scenes. Not 377 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: only were they moved, disrupting everything everything they were then 378 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: and this is fact, they then were unguarded. They were 379 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: completely unguarded. We've spoken to attorneys and journalists who went there, 380 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: and one of the attorneys. He said, you know, I'm 381 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: practicing fifty years. Do the math on how old I am. 382 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: He said, I could hop that fence and do what 383 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: you will with the evidence. So I think all of 384 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: us are. I'm particularly so curious how that will play 385 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: out there in the tiles. There's actually floating around out 386 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: there a photo that's kind of iconic to me, where 387 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: these trailers, these mobile homes. And when I say mobile home, 388 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about like a trailer like an RV. 389 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm talking about a mobile home. I was at this site. 390 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: I could see where the thing that it was hooked 391 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: up to a septic and you know, the water pipe, 392 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: the stubs are still in the ground. And I'll get 393 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: back to that in just a second. But the place 394 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: where these things were deposited, it looks like an old 395 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: hangar almost. It's vast area, and there's kind of this 396 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: iconic photo now where these things are in there and 397 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: there's a main entrance gate and the gate is cracked 398 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: open and someone is on the outside. Now, this this 399 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: violate from a forensic standpoint. This violates every principle that 400 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: you guys hear about us talk about here where it 401 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: comes to security. Crime scene security and holding onto the 402 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: evidence because you have to be able to preserve the chain. Well, 403 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, guys, but if I've got 404 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: four crime scenes which are being housed in a warehouse, 405 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty important to be able to, at 406 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: least at a rudimentary level, to demonstrate that we give 407 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: a damn about it and we're gonna lock the gate, 408 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. And so that that's just 409 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: one of the issues. And when do you remember what 410 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: we talked about just a few moments ago where we're 411 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: talking about gunfire. Right, So let's say, for instance, and 412 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: we've got I can't do the math off the top 413 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: of my head, mass hard, but anyway, we've got the 414 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: math that gives us a huge number of rounds have 415 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: been popped off in this in this house thirty two. 416 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: And what do we talk about all the time? You 417 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: hear us talk about pontificate about things and crime scenes. 418 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: One of the thing we talk about as bullet trajectories. Right, Okay, Well, 419 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: if you're in a mobile home, or if a mobile 420 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: home is being transported, you've got multiple gunshots that have 421 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: been fired in this environment that's now rolling down the road, 422 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: bumping up and down the road, and not just that 423 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: it's swaying back and forth. Can you tell me, And 424 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: if I was a defense attorney, I would ask this question. 425 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: It needs to be asking answer. Can you guarantee that 426 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 1: these walls are still plumb? Can you give us an 427 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: idea that when because you're putting them there, not just 428 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: to secure them, You're putting them there to examine them 429 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: in real time, not just to preserve the evidence. But 430 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: remember what we do as forensic scientists, we're kind of 431 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: historians in the sense we want to preserve that environment 432 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: so that it can be documented and presented in court. Well, 433 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: is this a real and true and accurate representation of 434 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: what was actually there before they removed it off of 435 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: the foundations and travel down these roads? And I gotta 436 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: tell you, and I know they can testify to it. 437 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: When I say roads, This road is like as why 438 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: we had to pull over on the side of the 439 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: road to get let other parts pass this wide And 440 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: you're talking about these narrow little lanes that they're dragging 441 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: these things down. Look, don't believe me. On the internet, 442 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: there's the pictures of the mobile homes going down the 443 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: road and being told, But that's when they got out 444 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: to the main road. These twist and turns that they're 445 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: having to take. Not to mention, how do you secure 446 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: anything that was nailed to the wall or this hung 447 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: on the wall that's us going to fall off? How 448 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: do you know that nothing was broken in there? And 449 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: can you prove it? Can you demonstrate it? And at 450 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's what the prosecutors are 451 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: going to have to do. I think this is a 452 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: big uphill climb for them from an evidentiary standpoint. Let's 453 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: stop here for another break. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and 454 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in 455 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, I guess a few 456 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 457 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 458 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 459 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 460 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 461 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 462 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 463 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 464 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 465 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 466 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 467 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 468 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 469 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney 470 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd 471 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it 472 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: was just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they 473 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: won't cross. I was stunned and I just said, no, 474 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: we're killing people. You may never have to face that 475 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: decision when you find yourself at that line. It's arn't 476 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: ricin and somebody needs to just for once give everybody 477 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: the whole truth, Like this is evil and the only 478 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: person who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't 479 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. These 480 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, things are going 481 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: to happen to speak out disgrace to our gun. Evil 482 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: should be prosecuted. When power corrupts, conscience is the last 483 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to The Whistleblowers 484 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 485 00:28:51,640 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: your podcasts. My name's averyon Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 486 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cock Show. You may remember 487 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 488 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People 489 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 490 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what 491 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: they're doing is evil. They will take things away, and 492 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl 493 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: Harbor moment or you and I both know what it 494 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: took to just get through the day in New York 495 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: City and get home in one piece. And so the 496 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what 497 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting 498 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you 499 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is 500 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. 501 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: Listen to The Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, 502 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast, be sure 503 00:29:54,720 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: to subscribe and share How Rude. Tanta Ritos is the 504 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: Full House rewatch podcast you've been waiting for. Each week, 505 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: get together with iconic characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, 506 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as 507 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: they team up to relive every episode of your favorite 508 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: Friday night comfort show. We spent our entire childhoods on 509 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: a little show called Full House, playing frenemies but becoming 510 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, and now, thirty five 511 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: years later, it's our biggest adventure yet. Get ready for 512 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: Jody and Andrea to tell all as they take an 513 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: in depth book back at life in and around the 514 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: Tanner Home from the very very beginning. So if you 515 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: think you know everything there is to know about Full House, 516 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: How Rude, We'll be reliving every moment with you, and 517 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: we'll be joined by our Full House family, including all 518 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: your favorites from one hundred and ninety two episodes. We'll 519 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: reveal the hidden treasures you may have missed within the show, 520 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: and we'll take a trip down memory lane together. Listen 521 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: to how rude Tana Ritos on the iHeartRadio, appable podcasts 522 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love to hear 523 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: any questions. We have a couple of more, but you 524 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: guys are here. It was all about his little girl, 525 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: so mamma could grandma could finally have her baby girl. 526 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: Why on earth did he throw everybody else under the berth? 527 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: Sobed Horton and I have worked together for decades. We 528 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: cried because it was such a stain on humanity that 529 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: hearing him say I'm guilty. He also apparently has found 530 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: God in prison and has been reformed, and his brother 531 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: has requested solitary confinement. Religion plays an interesting role also. 532 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: We also have heard that they're getting threats behind bars, 533 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: and that that might be part of the reason why 534 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: he's confessing and not to mention, apparently nobody knew when 535 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: Jake confessed. We're told that his mother, his father, and 536 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: his other brother had no idea he was going to plead, 537 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,719 Speaker 1: which really use them and leaves them with a bag. 538 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: So he although it was taking the death sentence part 539 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: off the table, he was also stealing their fate because 540 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: had they all gone to trial and kept quiet all 541 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: of this, forensics probably would have been up for conversation 542 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: and they might have gotten off. And interestingly, and this 543 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: is something that's new since so as Stephanie said, it 544 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: was maybe he found religion. Everyone says God is in 545 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: a lot of prisons because a lot of people seem 546 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: to find religion there. But you know, and maybe he 547 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: wanted to save the lives and that's why he testified. 548 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: But it's become clear in different court motions and different stuff. 549 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: The prosecutor has gone on record that if Jake does 550 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: not testify to the prosecution's liking and to the extent 551 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: of what he has agreed to, guess what, the death 552 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: penalty is right back on the table for everybody. So 553 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: we had never heard of that before. Imagine you take 554 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: a plea agreement, you get your family off of death sentence. 555 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: Is however, when you go to trial to testify against 556 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: them in front of them, which will be the first 557 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: time they all see each other eye to eye, will 558 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: be when Jake is testifying against them, bring it up. 559 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: Hold on, someone is going to yes, you got it, 560 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: very kindly, come and while that's coming, just thank you 561 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: for listening. I think we all are just very like 562 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: minded and just being justice junkies. We really genuinely it's 563 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: not grizzly stuff that we enjoy. It's trying to figure 564 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: out the why and the who and the truth. Yeah, 565 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: I have a question. Hannah Rodin is the one that 566 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: had the baby, correct, and she's the one that had 567 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: the child with Jake. Great, okay, why thank god they did. 568 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: But why do you think that they left the baby alive? Like, 569 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: wasn't that a point of contention in that family? Yes? 570 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: It was, and this, Yeah, it's a great question. It's 571 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: a great question. So part of let me phrase this simply. 572 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: It's such a layered question. Actually, you know, as Stephanie mentioned, 573 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: custody is a piece of this. Whether it was the 574 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: full thing will come out in the wash. Angela Jake's mother. 575 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: So this grandmother who ps had her grandchildren call her 576 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: mama and told told the mothers that you are not 577 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,439 Speaker 1: their mother, you gave birth, but I am their mother. 578 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: Just a little hint into her mindset. But why did 579 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: they leave that baby alive? So they had the three 580 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: year old that they shared, and the Wagners filed for 581 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,479 Speaker 1: custody of this five day old baby, saying that will 582 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: need her sister with her, so it was a to 583 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: keep them together. And then one other interesting thing on 584 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 1: that is, in the event that Hannah May died, which 585 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,479 Speaker 1: of course, this poor girl was murdered nineteen years old, 586 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: then custi would go to Jake. If Jake the father died, 587 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: custody would not go back to his mother Hannah May, 588 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: it would go to Angela, the grandmother, and was with 589 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: forged documents. And it was a summer of love. Hannah 590 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: was a young girl right she met somebody else. She 591 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: had a new boyfriend, Charlie Gilly. Interestingly, I've always thought 592 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: Frankie Rodin, the eldest victim's son, was sleeping beside his 593 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: fiancee and the three year old is the one that 594 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: got under the bed. The zombie story, Hannah Gilly was 595 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: shot five times in the face, which was the second 596 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: most of any of them. And I never understood why 597 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: the connection might be not proven. But design theory personal 598 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: is that Hannah Gilly's brother was Charlie Gilly, who was 599 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: the boy that Hannah May was dating, and not with 600 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: Jake anymore. So there is like a legit little love 601 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: triangle happening here. But at the time of the murders. Jake, 602 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: Jake and Hannah we're still seeing each other. From what 603 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,439 Speaker 1: we now know, she was keeping things nice, was doing 604 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: a lot of social media posting asking for help. She 605 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 1: obviously felt bullied by the Wagner family and by Jake. 606 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: She probably just wanted to get rid of him. But 607 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 1: at the time of the murders, Jake Willie did believe 608 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: that five day old was his so much so in 609 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 1: the days right after the murders, he filed for custody 610 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: and they did paternity tests. So why would he kill 611 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: her if he thought maybe they could get back together 612 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: because that baby was his. What is your theory why 613 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: they gave the mother such a great plea deal of 614 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: thirty years and took away the aggravated murder Angela her 615 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: Do you want to Yeah, it's being speculated that Angela 616 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: was not there that night, and that she sent everybody 617 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: out that night, and that she was looking after the grandkids, 618 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: because we've been obsessed with that. If, like the Jake 619 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: picked up his daughter outside of their custody plan the 620 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: day of the murders by coincidence, then that night they 621 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 1: all go out and murder everybody who was watching the kids. 622 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: Anybody who was watching the kids would know that they 623 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: weren't with the kids the night of the murder, and 624 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: then therefore they should be held accountable. My two cents, 625 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: it's been keeping us up at night. They found a 626 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: box like a like a Xerox paper box that said 627 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: important stuff on it, and in it was like all 628 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: the evidence, like literally truth. Yeah, why would you not 629 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,720 Speaker 1: get rid of the evidence, And that they were clever 630 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: enough to do surveillance. They had cameras, they were watching 631 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: every they were in every Instagram account, every coming and going. 632 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: That's kind of when we got involved to the idea 633 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: that the killer dogs that were trained attack, so that 634 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: was not uncommon, but the idea that they did in 635 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,439 Speaker 1: attack kind of uncommon. Right, So they must have known 636 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: the assailants and there wasn't any noticeable forced entry. Joseph 637 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: can speak more to this. So somebody probably, we think, 638 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: either had a key or went through a window. They 639 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: knew the family very well, so the dogs knew them, 640 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: so that wouldn't be unusual. And if it was the cartel, 641 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: which was the initial idea, the cartel would have not 642 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,479 Speaker 1: left anything breathing, including the dogs. They would have killed 643 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: the dogs killed the babies. They would have been an 644 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: assassination in and out, as opposed to what we now 645 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: know to be this enormous overkill. Have you thought of 646 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: this theory? There is no way in the world Angela 647 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: is gonna let these three men go take care of her. 648 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: Plot Who's taking care of the grandkids, Frederica. Yes, that 649 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: is the question. That's what I believe too. I'm with 650 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 1: you on that. Can you share with us anything new 651 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: about the grand matriarch Frederica. Yes, she answered the phone 652 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: recently when we called. Yeah, she wouldn't speak with us. 653 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: Courtney and I debate this all the time. I'll tell 654 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: you my side of it. Oh, Frederica is the grandmother 655 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: on the Acque side. People loved her. They we've heard 656 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: very loving things about her, that she was sweet and kind, 657 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: and she denies that her family is involved. Still, however, 658 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: Courtneys heard quite the opposite. And I mean, listen, there's 659 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,439 Speaker 1: two there's two sides to every coin, right, And yes, 660 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: Frederica did do altruistic things for the community, so that 661 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: is true. Also true is that she had quite a 662 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: bit of land, and so people would rent land and 663 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: they would say okay, so by the time and they'd 664 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: make payments like on a car, the theory being Okay, 665 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: when you pay us the X amount, that house is yours, 666 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,919 Speaker 1: you own it. Well, cut to this happened over and over. 667 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: She'd pull it out right at the end, Oh you 668 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: missed a payment or whatever, small thing. And she was 669 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: stealing back these people's homes. So that's a matter of fact. 670 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: So that's not speculation in the land of speculation. Though 671 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: after quite guilty if you found out any kind of scoop. 672 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: After your hor respond she says that she still doesn't 673 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: believe it, And we have called her directly and her 674 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: family members directly. But one thing was because she was 675 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: quite vocal Frederica in the press, and she has I 676 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: believe this is a fact. Has not spoken to the 677 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: press since the plea deals, but we've spoken, as stuff 678 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: said to people who are very close with her. She 679 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: wears that black veil like right out of Central Casting too, 680 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, she wears a black veil like the Godmother 681 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: goes to quarter. She looks so docile, like the sweetest 682 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: little grandmama you could ever wish for. I Meanwhile, she's allegedly, 683 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, raised up a generation of murderers. Yeah, ladies 684 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: and Gentan. Thank you very much for joining us. This 685 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: has been crime Con twenty twenty two. Thank you, Thank you, guys, 686 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Please email us if you have 687 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: a question real time. We really do try to listen 688 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 1: and respond with an episode, so if something pops up, 689 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: we were we would like to stay and engaged. If 690 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: you're enjoying The Piked and Massacre, listen to our other 691 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes air every Tuesday 692 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, 693 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked 694 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,720 Speaker 1: and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris 695 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: Grieves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by 696 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: Jeff ti music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by Ken Novak. 697 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre is a production of Katie Studios 698 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 699 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 700 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 1: We'd love for you to join us at crime CON's 701 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,439 Speaker 1: next big event. More details to come on our website. 702 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 703 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is 704 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 1: time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors 705 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them 706 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: was Barrenmout. On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 707 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted ed to the point 708 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,439 Speaker 1: she went unconscious. I would call him and I would say, 709 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. You can listen to 710 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever 711 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. This is the story of a 712 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: man who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, 713 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: and that's a name you don't forget. He was a 714 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: visionary who built a fortune as a black man during 715 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: Jim Crow during the Depression, but today not many people 716 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: know about him. He raised sort of wiped out, and 717 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet 718 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 719 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, have 720 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: been on the road playing shows and seeing America through 721 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: live music. This summer, I'll hit the stage who Season 722 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: two of Sound of Our town ten cities twelve episodes 723 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: every other Thursday, we explore the live music, venues and 724 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: culture of a new American city. With each new episode, 725 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: our tour continues into the kind of venues you want 726 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,760 Speaker 1: to get to when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver 727 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: or Seattle. Listen to Sound of Our Town on the 728 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hart, 729 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: I'm Freedom and I'm Rthy. We have spent the last 730 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 1: twenty years building and working at some of the largest 731 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: companies in the world. We worked with some remarkable people. 732 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: Rob mcalinney. When I see the people of Wrexham, I 733 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: grew up exactly like them. Check out the Art and 734 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: Trurom show. That is a R D HI and s 735 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: R I R A M Show. Listen to the arth Instree, 736 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm Shore on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 737 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.