Speaker 1: Preston piss needs no introduction. So of course, as always,
Speaker 1: we get into some crazy talk before. So we were
Speaker 1: talking about, let's just jump right in. I want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about this global bond market. But we're
Speaker 1: talking about money transmission, sending money overseas, and we're talking
Speaker 1: about how do we want to talk about what asset? No?
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean I'm talking about lightning and how
Speaker 2: you know there's not.
Speaker 1: Enough liquidity to send massive amounts of money through global settlement?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I just when I look at Lightning and
Speaker 2: I look at Layer one bitcoin and you just see
Speaker 2: that it's a true free and open market. The demand
Speaker 2: for Layer two right now is not at a point where,
Speaker 2: you know, if I wanted to send five thousand dollars
Speaker 2: worth of bitcoin on Layer two or ten thousand, you're
Speaker 2: probably going to run into some limitations with that as
Speaker 2: far as channel management unless you've opened like massive channels,
Speaker 2: and we're obviously talking about if like somebody else was
Speaker 2: managing the custody of those channels on your behalf. I
Speaker 2: guess just not there from a capacity standpoint. But it's
Speaker 2: also because the demand hasn't fully arrived. We're at the
Speaker 2: infancy of that. So I just think it's something that's
Speaker 2: going to naturally solve itself with enough time and enough
Speaker 2: demand that starts popping up in the global South and
Speaker 2: maybe resourcing to resourcing because of AI and micro payments,
Speaker 2: like all that stuff is in my humble opinions coming.
Speaker 1: And why do they even need that much liquidity? If
Speaker 1: you want to send one hundred million dollars, just send
Speaker 1: it on maintained.
Speaker 2: Well, that's right. So like if it's a large amount,
Speaker 2: like if you're settling on a house, like I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: you're just never going to do that on layer two.
Speaker 2: You're going to do that on layer one? Why would
Speaker 2: you want to Why would you want to want the security?
Speaker 2: It's ten minute blocks, Like you're one hundred x better than.
Speaker 1: Even if you're doing it at peak time like we
Speaker 1: just had with the ordinal thing. What are you going
Speaker 1: to pay one hundred bucks to settle it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, not even or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wouldn't even be that.
Speaker 2: It would be significantly lower than that. So I think
Speaker 2: it's just for a lot of us, like we can
Speaker 2: see kind of where this is all going, and we're
Speaker 2: a little impatient because like, how how can't we just
Speaker 2: be there right now, Why why isn't this happening? And
Speaker 2: and then you get the whole uh, all the all
Speaker 2: the things happening on the fringes of all these other
Speaker 2: tokens that are saying, well, we do have the liquidity, right,
Speaker 2: but you don't have the security and you don't have
Speaker 2: the decentralization, which therefore means you don't have the twenty
Speaker 2: one million hard cap because you don't have those other
Speaker 2: two things right.
Speaker 1: Right, and so especially Ethereum, Yeah, I mean, because they
Speaker 1: they just decided to become ultrasound money. But the fact
Speaker 1: that they changed it disproved that, Yeah, exactly. At least
Speaker 1: at least XRP hasn't changed one hundred million tokens. I mean,
Speaker 1: at least they haven't changed it yet yet, whereas Ethereum
Speaker 1: they seem to change all the time. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, it doesn't have liquidity, but again,
Speaker 1: why does it need to If you want to transfer
Speaker 1: a large amount of money, you would think you would
Speaker 1: want that to be immutable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right now, where I think the debate on layer
Speaker 2: two gets really interesting when you're thinking of it like
Speaker 2: five years, ten years from now, is like, what's going
Speaker 2: to be really dominant between like people that are just
Speaker 2: outsourcing the custody and the channel management, or are people
Speaker 2: actually going to want to do some of that on
Speaker 2: their own. And I think that's up for debate. I
Speaker 2: know when I'm using noster or you know, sending SATs
Speaker 2: to a friend or whatever, and it's a small, like
Speaker 2: micro size, like I'm sending somebody five cents worth of bitcoin.
Speaker 2: Like what I find myself doing, and I guess I'm
Speaker 2: a little ashamed to say this as a bitcoiner is
Speaker 2: like I open up wault of Satoshi because it just
Speaker 2: works and it's simple and that like I'm not managing
Speaker 2: the key. Somebody else is managing the keys, and like
Speaker 2: if I've done it with one hundred dollars worth of
Speaker 2: bitcoin and it's gone, I just load another hundred dollars
Speaker 2: a bitcoin in there. Because the speed at which all
Speaker 2: of their channels that they've opened through their node network
Speaker 2: that they run is just it's just so turnkey. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and if I mess up or it gets compromised, like
Speaker 2: the email that's associated with gets compromised, like it's one
Speaker 2: hundred bucks whatever. Yeah, right, I'm curious that like five
Speaker 2: years from now, is that how most people in the
Speaker 2: world are wanting to use it, and if so, is
Speaker 2: that an issue that is that a attack factor? Is
Speaker 2: that a centralizing you know?
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I was just outside with Gary
Speaker 1: cardone grand card owns brother, and I mean, he's very
Speaker 1: very smart, very blown away, but he's not at the
Speaker 1: level that most people are. So, for example, I was
Speaker 1: talking about wallets, meaning like that's the toasty wallet or whatever,
Speaker 1: and like he wasn't up to speed. So he's like,
Speaker 1: I don't really understand this, and I was like, okay, Well,
Speaker 1: he's like, you know, I don't want to. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I trust a one. And I was like, so,
Speaker 1: I like, I have this, like how much cash do
Speaker 1: you carry around? A couple hundred bucks? He's like they're
Speaker 1: probably more in that, but the point is you don't
Speaker 1: carry more cash here than you'd want to lose exactly.
Speaker 1: He's like, yes, maybe a thousand bucks. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: if you lose a thousand bucks, nobod deal, right, So
Speaker 1: that's what you'd carry here. To your point, if I
Speaker 1: use a hosted solution and I lose it, like whatever,
Speaker 1: I keep the rest in cold storage, just like you
Speaker 1: would with your bank and so you didn't get that.
Speaker 1: And then I showed him like I opened up Venmo
Speaker 1: and I was like, if I want to pay you
Speaker 1: on Venmo, I would, and I did. I opened up
Speaker 1: in mycet, I hit pay and it opens up to
Speaker 1: scans and now you got to show me your QR
Speaker 1: code and then I venmo cure and then I opened
Speaker 1: up blue wallet. That's what I just used to get
Speaker 1: Safety's new book downstairs. And open up blue wallet and
Speaker 1: I shows how many SATs I have send and opens
Speaker 1: up a thing to scan a QR code like it's
Speaker 1: the exact same thing, and he got it. He didn't know.
Speaker 1: Is that easy? But to the point that you're making
Speaker 1: you use that wall to care around a little bit
Speaker 1: of money, whether you want to use on a hosted
Speaker 1: solution or not. And I think the key piece here
Speaker 1: is that you can choose the trade off that you want.
Speaker 1: That's the key piece, no doubt about it.
Speaker 2: And we want it to be a There's one thing
Speaker 2: we all learned and pitcoin is like, I want to
Speaker 2: free and open market. I don't want to dictate anything.
Speaker 2: I just want to make sure that if a person
Speaker 2: wants to have the option to run their own note
Speaker 2: and to manage their their champ that somehow, some way
Speaker 2: that does not ever become from an engineering standpoint, removed
Speaker 2: through some type of disincentive that I'm not thinking about today.
Speaker 2: And so although I don't think that's going to be
Speaker 2: the case in five years from now, that like a
Speaker 2: wallet of Satoshi where they're a custodying the private keys
Speaker 2: on layer two becomes this dominant thing and that the
Speaker 2: other gets pushed away. I don't think that's going to
Speaker 2: be the case. But I don't know that I've spent
Speaker 2: enough mental rigor working through the game theory, working through
Speaker 2: the engineering, working through the vulnerabilities, and like what might
Speaker 2: pop out of it. So like I'll give you another
Speaker 2: example of like a vulnerability that I'm thinking a lot
Speaker 2: about is like on the inscription side, huge topic right now, right,
Speaker 2: And so David Bailey, love him, wicked smart, right, He's
Speaker 2: he's looking at everything that's happening on the inscription side
Speaker 2: and he's saying, Hey, everybody that was doing all these
Speaker 2: bs activities and he's like, in their activities on Ethereum
Speaker 2: and like all these other chains, He's like, they're coming
Speaker 2: the Bitcoin, right, He's like, but it's not a bad thing.
Speaker 2: And the reason it's not a bad thing is because
Speaker 2: if they're not actually creating economic value, like, it'll only
Speaker 2: persist for so long and then they're going to be
Speaker 2: bankrupt because nobody they weren't, you know, like actually having
Speaker 2: real customers. It was all just fake. And he's like,
Speaker 2: but it's utility. It's people coming here and using the network.
Speaker 2: You might not agree with how they're using the network.
Speaker 2: So like, that's his argument, right, and I agree with
Speaker 2: all of that, But I also look at it from like, Okay,
Speaker 2: so five years from now, is are these people going
Speaker 2: to create some massive campaign to increase the block size
Speaker 2: because they don't want the miners similar to like what
Speaker 2: you saw on ethereum eating up all this value? And
Speaker 2: so is there this Does this introduce kind of a
Speaker 2: initiative that is going to bring back the whole argument
Speaker 2: for large blocks?
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I have no idea, but as somebody who's just trying
Speaker 2: to assess risk, you know, in the future, where does
Speaker 2: that go?
Speaker 1: Well, a couple of things I'd say about that. So,
Speaker 1: first of all, unintended consequences in complex systems exactly, So
Speaker 1: when they made the upgrade, they didn't think that this
Speaker 1: would happen. Is the unintended consequence of that previous action,
Speaker 1: which is why myself and I'm sure you, I know
Speaker 1: Michael Saylor has been vocal about like let's just leave
Speaker 1: it as it is, like let's bring the changes on
Speaker 1: higher levels. So because unintended consequence. Yes, The other thing
Speaker 1: I'd say about that is, of course anyone can change
Speaker 1: the blocks as anytime they want, fork it, go ahead
Speaker 1: and fork it right the market at the market choose.
Speaker 1: But when I was doing the news desk this morning
Speaker 1: and with Pete Rizzo and we were kind of talking
Speaker 1: about this, and he was saying that he also thinks
Speaker 1: it's a good thing because it's actually taken away all
Speaker 1: the other chain's main use case because their whole marketing
Speaker 1: pitches Bitcoin is all technology. It can't do this stuff. Yes,
Speaker 1: it just did.
Speaker 2: So that's David's point. And so like, I don't disagree
Speaker 2: with David, but I'm as the engineer, like coming out,
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, so what is it that we're
Speaker 2: not thinking about? What's the unintended consequence of this? And
Speaker 2: you know, in my opinion today and I get most
Speaker 2: of this because Pierro shirt I value his intellectual engineering
Speaker 2: opinions so much, and like he looked at me, He's like,
Speaker 2: what's the emergency. Nothing's breaking. This is great for miners
Speaker 2: as of right now. It's great for expanding the channel
Speaker 2: capacity on layer two because now you saw all these
Speaker 2: exchanges buying its coin coin base, like all these exchanges
Speaker 2: that were like, yeah, cool story, but like, we're not
Speaker 2: doing layer two now. Literally within a week they're like
Speaker 2: all of a sudden doing Layer two stuff. And so
Speaker 2: you know, we have to have that stress in order
Speaker 2: to grow, that's right. So you've got to stress the system.
Speaker 2: And then to your point, maybe we even have new
Speaker 2: layer twos that pop up that have new you know,
Speaker 2: new things or whatever. And you did an interview with
Speaker 2: Jason Laurie which I had reteated at one point. I
Speaker 2: thought it was an amazing interview.
Speaker 1: And at the end of the interview, I think you'd
Speaker 1: asked him if you could say something to lawmakers, what
Speaker 1: would you say, And he said he said, I would
Speaker 1: tell them that just because it says bit, just because
Speaker 1: that's coin the name, doesn't mean it to be regulated
Speaker 1: by financial industry, no more than Amazon's cloud should be
Speaker 1: regulated by meteorologists. And while I don't know if I
Speaker 1: agree with his entire thesis, I love the different angles
Speaker 1: that he comes from. And part of it is I
Speaker 1: think about and you have a Bitcoin the network, and
Speaker 1: you have Bitcoin the asset BTC, and so if you
Speaker 1: think about the network itself, so you have a global, permissionless,
Speaker 1: censorship resistant, immutable, decentralized network. And so then like what
Speaker 1: could you do with that network? Right? And so this
Speaker 1: Ordinals is showing us what you can do with the network.
Speaker 1: So certainly all new technologies, if you go to the
Speaker 1: invention of electricity, the first killer application was a light bulb.
Speaker 1: That the first killer application was money, a digital asset.
Speaker 1: But what else could this network do? And so the
Speaker 1: Ordinals are showing us So like for decades people have
Speaker 1: risked their lives smuggling physical copies of Bibles into authoritarian regimes,
Speaker 1: and now the King James Bible is on the bitcoin blockchain, right,
Speaker 1: three D gun schematics or whatever it is, and like
Speaker 1: that just starts to make it seem way bigger. And
Speaker 1: so while putting JPEGs on there seems stupid, you know,
Speaker 1: now your point is super profound.
Speaker 2: It is, and and so that's why you know like you,
Speaker 2: I'm just like, hey, let's just wait, like just calm
Speaker 2: the calm down. Yeah right, Yeah, there's no emergency. The
Speaker 2: building's not on fire. In fact, like we're seeing benefits
Speaker 2: actually from the fees popping out for like literally incentivizing
Speaker 2: growth in these other areas that we need to have
Speaker 2: infrastructure and growth happening. And I think it's a little
Speaker 2: bit uh, you have a lot of hubrists to think
Speaker 2: you understand how any of that block space is going
Speaker 2: to be used ten years from now or twenty years
Speaker 2: from now.
Speaker 1: Like or to say who can use the block space? Amen?
Speaker 1: I mean so now you can't use electricity, mind, but
Speaker 1: you can usely Like now we're into that now.
Speaker 2: Well, so let me push back. So with all of
Speaker 2: that said, there's an analogy I like to use here. Okay,
Speaker 2: So chess, okay, right, So when you look at the
Speaker 2: pawn's you got values on the pieces. The pawn's worth one,
Speaker 2: the bishop, the knight, it's worth three, the Rook's worth five,
Speaker 2: the Queen's worth nine, the king. The king's value is unlimited, right,
Speaker 2: because if you lose the king, the game is over.
Speaker 2: You lost, right. So when I apply this to bitcoin,
Speaker 2: I'm saying, what's the king, right, what's the pawn? And
Speaker 2: why why would the king be unlimited value?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: So so for me personally, for me personally, you know,
Speaker 2: I served in the military, I lived in a combat zone.
Speaker 2: I was basically the proof of work minor of the
Speaker 2: legacy system. Okay, serving right, Yeah, And I'm looking at
Speaker 2: what incentives that pop out of that legacy system, which
Speaker 2: is you're not actually incentivizing exchange in a way that
Speaker 2: can't be, that's not immutable that there's bad actors that
Speaker 2: can step in, whether it's this country or that country.
Speaker 2: I'm not going in that direction. But what I'm saying
Speaker 2: is we have an opportunity to literally have a phase
Speaker 2: transition for humanity for the very first time in human
Speaker 2: history that incentivizees global cooperation. It's as profound as the
Speaker 2: ATP as an acting currency between all the organs in
Speaker 2: your body. That's what we're That is what bitcoin is
Speaker 2: truly representing. And for me, that's the king. You can't
Speaker 2: sacrifice that ever, no matter what, Like it's that profound
Speaker 2: of an idea for an inscription, because now I don't
Speaker 2: have to go to the Triple A office and like
Speaker 2: get the rubber stamp from from Sally saying, yes, you
Speaker 2: you went to this office and you were here at
Speaker 2: twelve nineteen. And I don't even know what's on the document,
Speaker 2: but you were here at twelve nineteen. Here's the stamp, right,
Speaker 2: Like to me, that's the pawn or like that's a bishop, right,
Speaker 2: and like we cannot as a community, we cannot give
Speaker 2: up the king on the board, which are in money.
Speaker 1: What's giving up the king money? So you're saying if
Speaker 1: these inscriptions were to crowd out money, so if they
Speaker 1: became worth more than.
Speaker 2: We lost the game.
Speaker 1: So let me let me, let me, let me let
Speaker 1: me flip this a little bit, not flip, but let's
Speaker 1: dig into that a minute. So as things evolve over time,
Speaker 1: we expand our definitions of things. So for example, in
Speaker 1: the eighties still and you know, up to the eighties
Speaker 1: and into the nineties, even what would what do we
Speaker 1: consider information?
Speaker 2: So figure about just what information was?
Speaker 1: Well, I read the morning newspaper from three people, I
Speaker 1: have the three channels the night of the news, and
Speaker 1: I guess there are some books in the library, right,
Speaker 1: that's information. Today. You have a kid in Indonesia post
Speaker 1: a picture on Instagram, and I know what the waves
Speaker 1: are like and what the weather's like. I said, what
Speaker 1: type of trees are there? And so like information has expanded.
Speaker 1: When Karl Marx with the Communist Manifesto, he was mad.
Speaker 1: He don't want to be an attorney. He wanted to
Speaker 1: be a philosopher. Nobody valued philosophy at the time, and
Speaker 1: so what he wrote is that the poor have no capital.
Speaker 2: All they have is their labor.
Speaker 1: Well, today you can get capital by writing philosophy. So
Speaker 1: like definition change. So back to money. We don't want
Speaker 1: to lose money. It's the most important thing. But what
Speaker 1: is money? Money communicates value, That's.
Speaker 2: Right, it's the honest ledger, it's the community. So like
Speaker 2: Claude Shannon, right, it's all about information theory of exchanging information.
Speaker 2: So if I come and I do some work for you,
Speaker 2: and you want to pay me, like, nobody can corrupt
Speaker 2: that communication of like what happened.
Speaker 1: What if I want to provide my labor to you,
Speaker 1: or I want to trade you this iPhone, or I
Speaker 1: want to give you this book, or I want to
Speaker 1: give you a three D guns comatic that could be
Speaker 1: money as a medium of exchange. I can exchange this
Speaker 1: item for that thing. And so if I'm putting three
Speaker 1: D guns commatics on the blockchain, is that my I mean,
Speaker 1: it communicates value and I don't know. This is like
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens. But I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Well, and I'm not even using that example. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that that's what it is doing. I'm just saying
Speaker 2: we got to make sure on a long timescale, right,
Speaker 2: Like here, I'll give you an example. So like let's
Speaker 2: say it's five years into the future and we have
Speaker 2: people that are crowded like the FIAT system, right, they
Speaker 2: can print as much of that stuff as they want, Yeah,
Speaker 2: which can act as an attack vector if if the
Speaker 2: right person already was and maybe it already was, but
Speaker 2: now they're just they're literally blowing out the mind pool
Speaker 2: and like the fees are blowing out, and like you're
Speaker 2: in this. I mean, it's a perpetual money machine that
Speaker 2: has no limits, right, Like maybe there needs to be
Speaker 2: something that that needs to be discussed, but like I
Speaker 2: don't think people should even remotely entertain that until like
Speaker 2: years from now that it's demonstrating like hey, this is
Speaker 2: continually getting worse and it doesn't seem like there's and
Speaker 2: I don't think this is what's going to happen, right,
Speaker 2: but if it did. But because I just have an
Speaker 2: appreciation for my total lack of actually understanding what something
Speaker 2: could look like that far out in the future, I'm
Speaker 2: just saying that we have to always remember that first
Speaker 2: and foremost, no matter what, it has to serve as money, right,
Speaker 2: And you can get into the intellectual debate on money
Speaker 2: what money is, and you know, we'll leave that for Robert.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I hear what you're saying. And so you know,
Speaker 1: there's already things that prevent spamol and things like that,
Speaker 1: and so again, but to your point, I would agree
Speaker 1: at first, and I was a little bit guilty, and
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of have to think about these things.
Speaker 1: But at first I was like, oh, man, you know,
Speaker 1: why do they make these changes? And this is undertend
Speaker 1: the consequence, and we should think about these things. And
Speaker 1: then you start getting too this kind of like knee
Speaker 1: jerk reaction, and that's the problem because you realize I
Speaker 1: could change it to stop this, but then what else
Speaker 1: am I doing? And so we just don't know.
Speaker 2: And I think Michael, you know, he talks a lot
Speaker 2: about just like the first layer solidified, like just like,
Speaker 2: let's go to layer two to what I mean. And
Speaker 2: I think he's I think he's very right, you know,
Speaker 2: if I was gonna put my my chips down on
Speaker 2: like who's right, Like, I think he's right. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I think that it's just gonna the free and open market.
Speaker 2: If there's one thing bitcoins taught me is like, just
Speaker 2: give it some time, and the free and open market
Speaker 2: is going to figure out, like where what is value
Speaker 2: and if it if it's an like in value or
Speaker 2: if what the activity is isn't adding value to some
Speaker 2: end user, Like, it's just going to naturally sort that out.
Speaker 2: It might not be at the timeline that you like,
Speaker 2: but it's going to.
Speaker 1: Sort it out.
Speaker 2: It's going to figure out how to take care of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I hadn't really planned on going down that rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: But it was a fun conversation. I told you before,
Speaker 1: I was really enjoying the kind of the I don't know,
Speaker 1: the thesis that you threw out in Wyoming when you
Speaker 1: talked about like the bond market and how yeah it's shifting,
Speaker 1: and then I heard you talk about it again somewhere
Speaker 1: else I forget or so many places.
Speaker 2: I don't think people. I think most people they're so
Speaker 2: detached from and so like when they look at and
Speaker 2: just to.
Speaker 1: Tee this up. We have this global financial system that's
Speaker 1: on the verge of teet around the brink of collapsing
Speaker 1: around the world, not just in the United States. Obviously,
Speaker 1: the bond marketing the States, which is the deepest globe,
Speaker 1: you know, deepest market bond market in the world, is
Speaker 1: teeter around. The banks are failing, but also globally we're
Speaker 1: in the same situation. And so bonds have been money
Speaker 1: or the main store of value. Yes, and so I
Speaker 1: think that's kind of where you would build this. So
Speaker 1: we're witnessing, you know, this the first kind of sovereign
Speaker 1: debt crisis in over one hundred years, and so that's
Speaker 1: kind of where we pick up with this, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Michael was doing an interview I don't remember
Speaker 2: who it was with, but he's talking about bitcoin being
Speaker 2: this bedrock that you can build upon, right and just
Speaker 2: kind of like taking that example but applying it to
Speaker 2: the legacy system for the last four.
Speaker 1: Years, this new harder asset, he calls it like a
Speaker 1: harder asset compared to the existing soft asset.
Speaker 2: You can build on this bedrock because it doesn't deflect
Speaker 2: like the ground isn't deflecting, right, And so I just
Speaker 2: I guess I'm describing it to people who I don't
Speaker 2: think are familiar with the legacy system. Is the bedrock
Speaker 2: that we used to build on was really good. This
Speaker 2: treasury market. For forty years for people that were paid
Speaker 2: in US treasuries, the value just kept going up. So
Speaker 2: that's a place that you can actually store. If I
Speaker 2: earn one hundred dollars and I plug that into the
Speaker 2: treasury market, yield keep going down. The value, especially if
Speaker 2: you were doing it with long duration bonds like that
Speaker 2: value is like aggressively getting better. So for everybody in
Speaker 2: the world, for the last forty years before COVID hit,
Speaker 2: they were very happy using the treasury market as their bedrock.
Speaker 2: And the reason why was because it wasn't just storing
Speaker 2: their value, it was making the value appreciate for them.
Speaker 2: And what about the forty years previous. The forty years previous,
Speaker 2: interest rates were going up and that was not the dynamic, right,
Speaker 2: But the way that that was offset is through the
Speaker 2: adjustment through the monetary baseline. That the race is how
Speaker 2: that was offset, and that's how that's why you in
Speaker 2: my opinion, and people will argue this, but that's why
Speaker 2: you got the inflation, you got into the you know,
Speaker 2: eighty one when it peaked out, right, So so I
Speaker 2: think that's important for bitcoiners to start with, is because
Speaker 2: the legacy system's evil and all these things, and it
Speaker 2: does create all these these warped incentives, especially when it's
Speaker 2: not backed and people are not even they're not even
Speaker 2: faking that it's backed anymore, because you know, supposedly it
Speaker 2: was back from Bretton Woods to seventy one and everything
Speaker 2: there in between, but it was back, but they were
Speaker 2: adjusting the money multiplier, so it really it really wasn't
Speaker 2: it was constantly failing. It was just a really slow failure.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So but my point, my point being is when we
Speaker 2: when we look back prior to COVID, when everything I
Speaker 2: think everything's kind of deflecting now in that legacy system
Speaker 2: that used to demonstrate bedrock that actually got stronger, and
Speaker 2: so when you're building on something that's getting stronger and
Speaker 2: more solidified, like everybody just wants to build on top
Speaker 2: of that, right, But now you like I would argue
Speaker 2: that the would we get up to like eight percent
Speaker 2: inflation on CPI nine point one? Yeah, it was even
Speaker 2: higher than that nine point one on the CPI gauge
Speaker 2: on this last mini cycle whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2: Everyone's like, whoa what was that? Like they're in these
Speaker 2: legacy buildings that are all built on top of this
Speaker 2: this bedrock, and it deflected and like the pictures are
Speaker 2: moving are like what.
Speaker 1: The what the hell was that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like that was just the first shock because
Speaker 2: the next what's coming next? And we can all see
Speaker 2: it with the debt ceiling coming and the you know,
Speaker 2: since what was it October November, they've been draining the
Speaker 2: Treasury General account basically weakening the dollar and it's been
Speaker 2: just the total charade for you know, since we'll call
Speaker 2: it November October. And now you got like I don't know,
Speaker 2: like fifty billion dollars left in the treasury Treasury General
Speaker 2: account and they're about to hit the ceiling and like
Speaker 2: you know, on the hill they can't agree on raising
Speaker 2: the ceiling like it's about to get it'll be spicy
Speaker 2: by the time this airs, most likely. Yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 2: so so how are they going to offset that. They're
Speaker 2: going to have to offset that with so much printing
Speaker 2: to the tune of trillions, if not tens of trillions
Speaker 2: at dollars. And like we hit nine point one here
Speaker 2: in the States, there's still double digits over in Europe
Speaker 2: in some places in Europe, and you go outside of there,
Speaker 2: and then now you're talking fifty percent to one hundred
Speaker 2: percent annual inflation. Like, look at the pain you're seeing
Speaker 2: in this country with nine point one and now we're
Speaker 2: like five something, right, Like the pain you're seeing. Could
Speaker 2: you imagine going into a country like Argentina, right, what
Speaker 2: is it? Thirty million people live in that it's it's
Speaker 2: ten percent of the US population, and they're dealing with
Speaker 2: one hundred percent annual inflation and they've already got a
Speaker 2: new old time high when they compare the bitcoin price
Speaker 2: to their local currencies. You think those people aren't seeing
Speaker 2: something right now? Right, And so like the deflection for
Speaker 2: us is it nearly as profound as the deflection for
Speaker 2: most other places around the world. And they're seeing it,
Speaker 2: and they're saying, all right, so where's the new bedrock?
Speaker 2: Where are we going to build? Because where everything was
Speaker 2: constructed for the last forty years is coming on glued
Speaker 2: and the shocks are getting more profound, and they ain't
Speaker 2: seen nothing yet like the shocks. In the coming three years,
Speaker 2: they're going to really see some deflection like it was.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, now we're entering into this
Speaker 1: sort of a decentralized world that I like to call it,
Speaker 1: where now the world is sort of breaking apart, this
Speaker 1: dollar homogeny, and not only is it deflecting to where
Speaker 1: like I don't know if I'm with put money there,
Speaker 1: but now I have to be worried about the US
Speaker 1: dollar being weaponized against me, sanctions and things.
Speaker 2: They can't afford, Like in most countries they can't afford
Speaker 2: to touch it anymore because when their debts are denominated
Speaker 2: in dollars, they can't afford to touch it because they're
Speaker 2: just they're getting annihilated trying to pay that back, as
Speaker 2: you know. And so you saw a Stan and like
Speaker 2: he reversed his opinions Stan drugg and Miller on like
Speaker 2: the dollar. I saw something that he was very bearissed
Speaker 2: on the dollar, and then he changed his mind. But
Speaker 2: he might change his mind for two weeks. But I
Speaker 2: think I think you're at this really critical point. I
Speaker 2: think the only reason you saw the dollar sell off
Speaker 2: there for the like the last five six months because
Speaker 2: they were doing they were doing funny business with a
Speaker 2: general account and now like they have to keep providing
Speaker 2: that to provide stability in this situation where you have
Speaker 2: more bank failures this year in twenty twenty three than
Speaker 2: you had in two thousand and eight, which I think
Speaker 2: the common person on the street and be like, what
Speaker 2: are you talking about? Yeah, I think that's just getting
Speaker 2: warmed up. I think going into the third quarter, like
Speaker 2: second the third quarter this year, like, dude, it's going
Speaker 2: to get crazy. I think it's going to get crazy.
Speaker 2: That's your base case, that's my case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you can argue either way. I'm tending
Speaker 1: I see three ways out of it. So I think
Speaker 1: there's this muddle along, like like Argentina would have, Right,
Speaker 1: there's kind of mudd along. We kind of go through
Speaker 1: stagflation trade sideways. I think certainly there's plenty of reasons
Speaker 1: why we could have a massive crash. Yeah, or well,
Speaker 1: and when.
Speaker 2: You say crash, like you really have to define what a.
Speaker 1: Crash is in what Yeah, Well, I think one one
Speaker 1: in the economy, so right, I mean, we can see
Speaker 1: consumer spending or consumer debt going to the roof, consumer
Speaker 1: savings dropping life flies. However, if you look at the
Speaker 1: economic data, you know, the last quarterly reports were just
Speaker 1: posted and revenue and profits are still doing pretty dang good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And unlike two thousand and eight, in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: we saw a certain sector, well in two thousand and
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, we saw a certain sector get smashed.
Speaker 2: Right, So it's the tech sector in two thousand.
Speaker 1: It was the real estate sector in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: and that put a massive hole in the economy, and
Speaker 1: of course the trickle down from that. We don't have
Speaker 1: a big hole in the economy right now.
Speaker 2: Well, so, so where there's all the issues cropping up.
Speaker 2: The issues are cropping up with anybody who has a
Speaker 2: substantial amount of exposure to.
Speaker 1: Treasuries, yeah right, which is not the retail, which is
Speaker 1: the banks, Which is the banks. So we're witnessing the
Speaker 1: Fiat currency crisis, which is now causing a banking crisis,
Speaker 1: which is in a sovereign crisis, but not in the
Speaker 1: retail consumer. And that's why I'm going back to this
Speaker 1: economy piece.
Speaker 2: But it'll get there extremely fast if they don't act
Speaker 2: and red denominate all the impairment in this treasury market
Speaker 2: with more cash infusions.
Speaker 1: Or or witnessing banks tightening and lending for example. So
Speaker 1: the SLUE reports show how fast they're tightening credit, which
Speaker 1: of course will then trickle to the economy because the
Speaker 1: businesses can't get credit. That's going to be a big problem.
Speaker 1: We know of the one hundreds of billions of dollars
Speaker 1: of corporate debt that has to be rolled over at
Speaker 1: new rates, and so that's going to be jacking to
Speaker 1: the roof. Obviously there's the massive bomb in the commercial
Speaker 1: real estate mortgage backed security market. But the FED could
Speaker 1: just take those on their books and they could just
Speaker 1: roll over the bond market, which they've done. They can't.
Speaker 2: They can't bit there at the point now mark where
Speaker 2: every everything that they've got to do is further manipulation
Speaker 2: of a free and open market of course, right, and
Speaker 2: as they continue to do that in this next amount
Speaker 2: of units that are added into into the system, like
Speaker 2: the last COVID right that those units that everybody thinks
Speaker 2: it was because of the virus, that that that's the
Speaker 2: sole reason why we got the spike, and you're not
Speaker 2: going to see something like that again. And I like
Speaker 2: dramatically disagree with that. I think I think that was
Speaker 2: the first step and now the next cash infusion. In
Speaker 2: order to keep civil unrest at bay, they have to
Speaker 2: keep the units flowing down. This is the whole reason
Speaker 2: CBDCs are cropping. It is because they have to be
Speaker 2: able to control it down at this level where it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: the price of breadge just getting too far out of hands,
Speaker 2: and now we've got cupe on so that you can
Speaker 2: only buy half as much as what you were doing,
Speaker 2: and like all these types of act these these weird
Speaker 2: like it's all about ordering control as we're going further
Speaker 2: and further down the path, and the lie of like
Speaker 2: what inflation actually is is only going to continue to
Speaker 2: crop up.
Speaker 1: And I don't disagree, and I don't think any almost
Speaker 1: anybody would disagree, And I don't think so there's two
Speaker 1: certainties in life, death and taxes, and now there's a
Speaker 1: third money printing. I mean, is it has to be.
Speaker 1: It's the only way.
Speaker 2: And their intent is order. Yeah, Like, and I think
Speaker 2: most people when society are saying, well, I do want order.
Speaker 2: I don't want chaos. I don't want I don't want calamity.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, and so I and so trust me. The
Speaker 2: last thing I want to do is go easy on
Speaker 2: central bankers or like some of these people that are
Speaker 2: that are making policy decisions. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: what they seek is order. They don't want chaos, they
Speaker 2: don't want social unrest. And truly, the only way to
Speaker 2: do that in a fractional reserve system with an unpacked
Speaker 2: money FIAT supply that that has been that has been
Speaker 2: tampered with for forty years straight to prevent unrest is
Speaker 2: more were of the same with the policies until they
Speaker 2: literally make something pop.
Speaker 1: So let's take it to another level. This is what
Speaker 1: we were talking about before we recording that you want
Speaker 1: to pause, and I think it's the perfect time to
Speaker 1: bring this back. So they don't want unrest, they won't
Speaker 1: order whose day? And this question is the key question.
Speaker 1: The reason why I say this is because back to
Speaker 1: the conversation we're having before recording, if you look at
Speaker 1: the global board, if you look at the the world
Speaker 1: a game of Thrones as a strategic board game, and
Speaker 1: a lot of this I got from Tom Luwongo as
Speaker 1: I said, we trade a lot of messages. He's been
Speaker 1: on my channel. We've just had a two hour rip.
Speaker 1: I think the first hour published the other day. So
Speaker 1: if you look at if you look at the world
Speaker 1: as a as a game of thrones, global you know
Speaker 1: a game, you have multiple players, and so there's certainly
Speaker 1: the bricks nations the Global South that are kind of
Speaker 1: trying to do their own thing, and then you have
Speaker 1: the globalist which is the euro Davos ECB group. He
Speaker 1: would and I would agree, and we can discuss why.
Speaker 1: But factions within the US are probably aligned with So
Speaker 1: you have Obama Biden yelling for sure, on board with that.
Speaker 1: But then you have US nationalists, so probably the Federal Reserve,
Speaker 1: Jamie Diamond and some of the nationalist that to have
Speaker 1: another faction. And the reason why that's important understanding is
Speaker 1: as a bitcoiner, one of the biggest things that we
Speaker 1: always hear is they will never allow something like bitcoin
Speaker 1: to happen because they will never get up control over money.
Speaker 1: Who won't give up control over money? So the FED
Speaker 1: doesn't want to give up control to the ECB, or
Speaker 1: to the BOJ or the PBIO like which one.
Speaker 2: Well, so I would I would break down the world.
Speaker 2: And I love the different buckets that you put put
Speaker 2: out there. I would just trying to go first principles, right. So,
Speaker 2: the people who control the equity of the world, right,
Speaker 2: the behemoths of equity, like, they're the ones that can
Speaker 2: that can pretty much get what they.
Speaker 1: Want, right, And so who are they?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's it's the apples. It's like these
Speaker 2: really large equity And then look right down who the
Speaker 2: shareholders are. And when you look at this, and this
Speaker 2: is an important piece too, when you look who the
Speaker 2: shareholders are, so many of the shareholders are Blackrock or
Speaker 2: these large institutions that have them in ETF buckets. And
Speaker 2: so even though like an individual might have that in
Speaker 2: their retirement account, are they actually able to control or
Speaker 2: influence in The answer obviously is no, but Blackrock shut
Speaker 2: can They might have a seat on the board of
Speaker 2: whatever large piece of equity it is. And so when
Speaker 2: you when you go up and you think about the
Speaker 2: structure of who owns all the buying power and you
Speaker 2: see how much power is put into some of these banks,
Speaker 2: you can see why they are aggressively trying to control.
Speaker 1: So then I'll ask you a question out of those
Speaker 1: players I framed up who is Blackrock aligned with?
Speaker 2: I think Blackrocks aligned with word for sure.
Speaker 1: They're doing all the funding to rebuild the train, which
Speaker 1: is part of the West.
Speaker 2: Which all makes sense. Doesn't mean it's right, but from
Speaker 2: like an incentive standpoint, you can see why that all
Speaker 2: makes sense.
Speaker 1: So to your point, yes, there's part of that euro
Speaker 1: Davos globalist group is black Rock, They're part of that.
Speaker 2: So the line gets blurred as to like who's actually
Speaker 2: pulling the strings.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so that's why we're just like you're looking
Speaker 1: at a ligned inches because what happens in a game
Speaker 1: of thrones is like, hey, me and you, let's fight
Speaker 1: these guys for now, and when they're gone, now you
Speaker 1: and I are going to figure it out.
Speaker 2: But there's one other thing I want to cover on this.
Speaker 2: On like a first principal standpoint is where this is
Speaker 2: going is the people that control the equity of natural
Speaker 2: resources and truly desirable necessities in society, goods and services.
Speaker 2: There's a transition that's happening like in real time that
Speaker 2: I would argue that people that just controlled the equity,
Speaker 2: like the largest cap type equity before held all the power.
Speaker 2: But where it's transitioning is people that control large amounts
Speaker 2: of equity for very desirable products and services, equity of
Speaker 2: those types of things. So you're oil companies like all that, right,
Speaker 2: they're the ones that are that are that are really
Speaker 2: going to be able to call the shots here during
Speaker 2: the transition to this new monetary system right in the
Speaker 2: coming tenures.
Speaker 1: Which kind of goes into a little bit of like
Speaker 1: zolto impose aristhesis of this kind of like you know
Speaker 1: third third Revolution, right Brett third bretton woods where they're
Speaker 1: going into commodities, and we're seeing that so like General Motors,
Speaker 1: for example, spend six hundred fty million dollars on a
Speaker 1: lithium mine. They'd rather have the lithium in the ground
Speaker 1: than the dollars. But we're also seen on a global stage,
Speaker 1: so I think that's maybe kind of what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: But so if we if we look if we look
Speaker 1: at it like that, then we would go, well, some
Speaker 1: of these globalists, including the WEF, we could go to
Speaker 1: their website at this very second, it's still up, they
Speaker 1: haven't taken down and says by twenty thirty, the US
Speaker 1: will no longer be the dominant superpower. Okay, so there's
Speaker 1: in it's George Soros has been openly staying for two
Speaker 1: decades that they want to bring down the United States.
Speaker 1: So you have some of these things that are public.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not conspiratory. It's on their website. We'd
Speaker 1: go find it. And when we play this interview, let's
Speaker 1: those up on the screen.
Speaker 2: What's and what's so amazing is they have no idea
Speaker 2: who's going to be in power in the United States
Speaker 2: that let's just say we have, you know, a presidential
Speaker 2: candidate that comes in. They're like pro bitcoin and they're
Speaker 2: like they're there's putting it on the treasury in a
Speaker 2: secret kind of way, and they're printing a bunch of
Speaker 2: dollars in their stack in SATs and whatever.
Speaker 1: Because what Rothchild said dred years ago, give me control
Speaker 1: over the money, and I care not who makes the nationals.
Speaker 2: So for them to even think they have a clue
Speaker 2: as to who's going to figure this out, because it's
Speaker 2: an education thing, right, It's an education thing. And that's
Speaker 2: why I guess I'm so passionate about even being in
Speaker 2: this space. It's like, if you can just get the
Speaker 2: knowledge and the understanding and the curiosity in the head
Speaker 2: of the right person who has the influence to affect
Speaker 2: change in any country. Right, it doesn't matter what the
Speaker 2: country is, Oh boy, watch out, yeah, because that country
Speaker 2: And I would argue, there's there's a real small one
Speaker 2: in the world right now that has that happen, right,
Speaker 2: and I think they're going to have a tremendous this
Speaker 2: amount of influence years from now because of that leadership.
Speaker 1: And so to your point on that, so then you
Speaker 1: have if we don't need to dig into that, but
Speaker 1: if you have these couple of people, the ECB, the FED,
Speaker 1: the BOJ whatever you want to pboc, the people that
Speaker 1: have control and they can fight it out, But then
Speaker 1: you have a whole group of people who have no control,
Speaker 1: and so for them, they have nothing to lose. They're
Speaker 1: stuck dealing with dollars or whatever currency that's dying. And
Speaker 1: then you have to go to jump to dollars, so
Speaker 1: they have nothing to lose, they can jump to that.
Speaker 1: It's easy to see why the ECB or the FED
Speaker 1: doesn't want to go to that because they'd rather keep
Speaker 1: the system going that they have. And so that's where
Speaker 1: the game theory comes into play well.
Speaker 2: And I would say in the Global South, one of
Speaker 2: the things I'm most excited about, Like, one of the
Speaker 2: challenges you have is to progress, you have to you
Speaker 2: have to start first principles. You need energy, Like you
Speaker 2: need energy in each one of these if you were
Speaker 2: thinking of it, like cells, right, the cells in your body,
Speaker 2: every single cell in your body has mitochondria, which is
Speaker 2: an energy power plant, has its own DNA. It is
Speaker 2: different than your human DNA, right, it's its own organism.
Speaker 2: When I think about bitcoin, it's basically a micro chondria
Speaker 2: power plant that goes into these cellular regions and now
Speaker 2: it immediately has somebody that's willing to buy the energy.
Speaker 2: So in that cellular region, if it's energy rich, right,
Speaker 2: and somebody can go in there that actually sees the
Speaker 2: vision and can set up a power plant with mining
Speaker 2: there to soak up all that energy that cheap like
Speaker 2: ever flowing energy. Right Now, all of a sudden, you've
Speaker 2: created this mitochondria in that cell that all these sorts
Speaker 2: of complex activities can start manifesting themselves around that energy source.
Speaker 2: And so when I think about the Global South, one
Speaker 2: of the things I'm most excited about is it's not
Speaker 2: that they're just going to get like sound money and
Speaker 2: access to all the unbanked. It's that they're going to
Speaker 2: have an incentive for people to step into areas that
Speaker 2: are rich in energy, and they're going to be able
Speaker 2: to set up these mining power plant combos, and then
Speaker 2: it's going to turn into this flourishing of activity that
Speaker 2: surrounds it that's competing.
Speaker 1: For like Saudi Arabia did an oasis in the middle
Speaker 1: of the desert, that's right, and they had oil, which
Speaker 1: oil could be packaged up and transported out. You can't
Speaker 1: do this with a lot of this energy in these
Speaker 1: other countries, but they don't have to anymore. So now
Speaker 1: they can just put a container there, start a link
Speaker 1: it up, and tap right into it. So then you're
Speaker 1: bullish on that. I'm bullish on that. That read that
Speaker 1: kind of changes the world. And so then I guess
Speaker 1: kind of drawing back to the original conversation. So while
Speaker 1: the let's call it the G seven or maybe even
Speaker 1: the G twenty, while they want to duke it out
Speaker 1: over who's gonna win the Ultimate Game of Thrones, over
Speaker 1: here you have sort of these players that are already
Speaker 1: out of the game, that are going to go ahead
Speaker 1: and just keep building tapping into this, and so while
Speaker 1: they want to fight it out, we'll have this kind
Speaker 1: of rising up exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Now, that doesn't mean that that in developed nation states
Speaker 2: that you're not going to have growth. And because it
Speaker 2: all comes down the weather, you have key influential leaders
Speaker 2: that understand this, and if they do, they're going to
Speaker 2: crush it. But but I would say, uh, they're gonna
Speaker 2: have They're going to be blinded by their legacy bias
Speaker 2: and it's going to be extremely different, difficult to overcome.
Speaker 2: And when you look at the how most of this type,
Speaker 2: you know, the developed nations, how that world revolves. It
Speaker 2: revolves around very wealthy legacy people funding their incentives. And
Speaker 2: that's it's it's.
Speaker 1: Gonna be because it works incentives specifically on the greed incentive. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so as corrupt as some of these people might be,
Speaker 1: if it can feed that greed, I mean there's a
Speaker 1: there's a good, good chance to do that. And and
Speaker 1: then there's a lot of other ways. I met with
Speaker 1: a guy here kind of under NDA, so I don't
Speaker 1: want to kind of expose what he's doing. He's over
Speaker 1: in Europe where they have energy problems, of course, and
Speaker 1: he's figured out a way. We'll just say to take
Speaker 1: devices in your house that use a lot of electricity
Speaker 1: and in bed mining into that. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you talk to them here. Yeah, And and basically
Speaker 1: he's his plan is selling it is to never even
Speaker 1: mention bitcoin or mention bitcoin mining. And hey, here's this
Speaker 1: electrical device. It costs as much as the next elector device,
Speaker 1: but I'm going to rebate you twenty percent of whatever
Speaker 1: your bill is. And he doesn't tell him what it is.
Speaker 1: And like, that's a genius way to think about it.
Speaker 1: Get into that greed. I don't know. And he said,
Speaker 1: at some point I might say, hey, okay, there's bitcoin
Speaker 1: in here, and here's a wallet for you. But he's like,
Speaker 1: right now, I didn't want to talk.
Speaker 2: About that, and he doesn't need to. Yeah, if people
Speaker 2: are getting a discount by twenty percent, yeah, right.
Speaker 1: And so back to these other countries, if it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: there's a way that you can set up this power plant.
Speaker 1: It can make you money and you don't have to
Speaker 1: say bitcoin at first, you know.
Speaker 2: It was probably one of the reasons I'm so bullish
Speaker 2: on it is because every little nook and cran a.
Speaker 2: You look, there's something that's like this reinforcing engine to bitcoin,
Speaker 2: like the example you just shared, right, Yeah, where like
Speaker 2: people that are creative enough to think through, like I
Speaker 2: don't even need to tell somebody that there's bitcoin happening
Speaker 2: over there. They're just getting twenty percent off their energy
Speaker 2: built and I'm paying them the twenty or there. It's
Speaker 2: all in terms that they understand, which is fee out money. Right.
Speaker 2: The thing is over there doing that work, and he's
Speaker 2: making out and they're making out, and there's this win
Speaker 2: win like incentive that just keeps popping up everywhere you look,
Speaker 2: in every single facet of this thing, and it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, it's a trojan hydra. It's a trojan like
Speaker 2: you cut off one head to grow back, and the
Speaker 2: thing is just and it's been like that since I've
Speaker 2: been in the space, and it just doesn't it seems
Speaker 2: to be relentless. It seems to be relentless. And I
Speaker 2: know I'm biased and I'm a bitcointer, but like.
Speaker 1: But we have fteen years of history to show that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's a long time. Yeah, and I think and again,
Speaker 1: I mean, just to reiter it, no, matter how much
Speaker 1: they try to clamp down on it in one location,
Speaker 1: there's other people that are going to want it, so
Speaker 1: no doubt.
Speaker 2: And that's the game theory that people that show up
Speaker 2: with not a lot of experience or time like it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: the government's going to ban that, and that's like the
Speaker 2: end of their thesis and they're not going to dig
Speaker 2: in because the thing has seventy percent volatility and only
Speaker 2: these crazy crypto people are running around and.
Speaker 1: They look like that's a very US centric viewpoint. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you forget that the rest of the privileged viewpoint.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: But people willing to do the work and dig in
Speaker 2: real deep, like real deep, they're going to see it
Speaker 2: and there it's going to be very difficult to unsee it.
Speaker 1: Yah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I think we can wrap it up there.
Speaker 1: That's a good love it, little good little rip love it.
Speaker 1: Appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Mark. I love
Speaker 2: talking with you. Yeah, yeah, I love talking with you.