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Speaker 1: What's without an introduction my podcast. I'm Robert Evans, host

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Speaker 1: of Behind the Bastards, the show where we tell you

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Speaker 1: everything about the worst people in all of history and

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Speaker 1: are chronically unprepared to actually start the show that allows

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Speaker 1: me to pay rent and buy food. Um, I'm ashamed

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Speaker 1: of me. I'm sure Sophie's ashamed of me, but I

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Speaker 1: can't know. Oh now I can know because she said yes.

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Speaker 1: But you know who's fifty chance not ashamed of me?

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Speaker 1: My guest today, Mr Billy Wayne Davis. I am not.

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Speaker 1: I'm not proud, but I'm not ashamed, do you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? That's what I shoot for, Like you

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Speaker 1: pulled it out kind of yeah. Yeah, but everybody listening

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Speaker 1: is going come on, man, yeah, I'm uh. You know.

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Speaker 1: The lesson I learned long ago is that if I

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Speaker 1: just keep talking, um, about sixty percent of the time,

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Speaker 1: I can pull victory from failure. Um. And I learned

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Speaker 1: that lesson with cops, but it applies to podcasting too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's I think it applies to a lot more of

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Speaker 1: life than it should that if you just keep talking

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Speaker 1: a lot of times, most people be like, all right,

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Speaker 1: just get it, all right, just get going. Speaking of

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Speaker 1: getting going, Billy Wayne, have you ever used a fertility doctor?

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Speaker 1: That is an inappropriate questions? I'm pre open um. I

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Speaker 1: have two kids, and I wasn't actively planning but either

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Speaker 1: of them. I wasn't upset that it happened either. But no,

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Speaker 1: I haven't. I haven't. Okay, Well, um, would you be

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Speaker 1: would you be surprised? Like? What do you what do

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Speaker 1: you think when you think like a fertility doctor? Like,

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Speaker 1: do you have any sort of conceptions in your head

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Speaker 1: about the kind of person who would take that job?

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Speaker 1: I think it feels like someone that wants to help

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Speaker 1: couples create life and create a family. That seems like

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Speaker 1: a like somebody like a family doctor that was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at making this happen. So I and

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Speaker 1: I have a good bedside manner. Let's go that help

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Speaker 1: see these people out. It seems like like a fundamentally

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Speaker 1: noble endeavor, right, Yeah, I like that. It seems correct,

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Speaker 1: It seems noble. Well, the working title of our episode

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Speaker 1: is all fertility doctors are bastards. Uh, and that's that's

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Speaker 1: not entirely fair. And the the large fertility doctor contingent

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Speaker 1: of bastards pod listeners are probably angry, but I will

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Speaker 1: say from everything I can tell, it is a field

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Speaker 1: with like a shockingly high rate of a very specific

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Speaker 1: type of bastard. And that's what we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about today. Yeah, it's weird. Um, it'll all make sense

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Speaker 1: in the end, but the journey is going to be

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Speaker 1: a little bizarre. See m M, you know what that's.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as long as they get as long as

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Speaker 1: we get them graduated from medical school, I think we're

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Speaker 1: step ahead of everything else we've done. Well. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: these are definitely I don't know. You know actually, Billy, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: put a pin in that because you and I primarily

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Speaker 1: talk about fake doctors, and it's really debatable as to

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Speaker 1: whether or not a lot of these people are, Like

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Speaker 1: they all have m d s. So I will say,

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Speaker 1: like in that regard, yes, they're more real than the

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Speaker 1: fake doctors we normally talk about. But I think in

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Speaker 1: a fundamental way, all of the people were talking about

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Speaker 1: today are in fact fake doctors, regardless of their real

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Speaker 1: um m D credentials. See it's like, you don't think

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Speaker 1: of that part of doctor because yeah, you think that

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Speaker 1: law there's a lot of lawyers that go to that

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever, and they're like, yeah, I'm technically a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, okay, whatever. I mean, your whole profession

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Speaker 1: is technicalities anyway, But yeah, a doctor is that I'm

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Speaker 1: a doctor? Next, son of a bitch? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is an episode about the gray area

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Speaker 1: and the fake doctor designation. So we'll we'll circle back

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Speaker 1: around to discussing that around the end if I remember too,

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Speaker 1: because about eighty percent of the time when I say

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Speaker 1: we'll circle back to something, we completely forget um and

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Speaker 1: never do. And that is also one of the hallmarks

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Speaker 1: of my show, along with terrible introductions. So yeah, this

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Speaker 1: episode originally started as a fan submission of a subject,

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Speaker 1: Dr Norman Barrwin. Uh. He's a Canadian fertility doctor who

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Speaker 1: is a real piece of ship. And we will still

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Speaker 1: be talking about Dr Barwin, but as I dug into

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Speaker 1: his story, I come upon a bigger, weirder, and bastardier

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Speaker 1: story and that is what we will be talking about today. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are a million different places we could start, but

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Speaker 1: in the interest of simplicity, I'm going to kick it

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Speaker 1: off in nineteen thirty nine with the birth of Bernard

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Speaker 1: Norman Barwin. Barwin was born in South Africa to parents

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Speaker 1: who I'm sure existed at some point, but I do

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Speaker 1: not know you know anything else at all about them? Uh,

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Speaker 1: not a lot of information on this guy's early life. Um,

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Speaker 1: we do know that he went to college at the

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Speaker 1: Queen's University in Northern Ireland and moved to Canada in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies to work as a doctor, and on paper,

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Speaker 1: his career looked about as woken wonderful as it's possible

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Speaker 1: to be. Norman founded the first sexual health clinic for

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Speaker 1: schools in Ottawa. He was a very public and charismatic

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Speaker 1: advocate for expanded sex education and reproductive medicine. He spent

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Speaker 1: time driving around the Canadian capital and what he called

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Speaker 1: a sex bus. Now it's pre internet, right, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: pre internet because there's a bang bus in Florida I

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Speaker 1: knew about. Yeah, this is very different from the bang bus. Um.

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Speaker 1: Rather than being the set for a low budget porn

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Speaker 1: the sex bus was a way for Dr Barwin to

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Speaker 1: distribute pamphlets on sexual health. Many d walked into that bus.

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Speaker 1: So this is not what. Don't go in there, man,

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Speaker 1: They got reading stuffs, just paper. I love that the

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Speaker 1: passers by uh that that we voiced in our episodes

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Speaker 1: are always Southerners, even when we're talking about Ottawa. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that is. I mean, to quote the comedian Jesse Case,

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Speaker 1: who's Southern. He was like, I mean it sucks, but

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Speaker 1: when I even when Southerners do a dumb voice, it's

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Speaker 1: just a more Southern voice. And you're like, that's so true.

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Speaker 1: You're doing the guy from the town over, Yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: the dumber guy in your neighborhood, dumb dogs. And you're like,

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Speaker 1: I think King of the Hill is the ultimate example

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Speaker 1: of that, because like every one of Hank's friends is

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Speaker 1: a different sort of fake Southern voice that I would

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Speaker 1: do based on somebody. I know. It's the it's my

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Speaker 1: judge doing that. It's just him watching people in his alley,

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Speaker 1: going like I can do all these voices. I think,

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Speaker 1: uh so um yeah. Barwin, the Good Dr. Barwin was

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Speaker 1: an early advocate for abortion rights. He also grew increasingly

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Speaker 1: interested in finding ways to help single women and lesbian

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Speaker 1: couples have babies, and over time this grew into an

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Speaker 1: interest in fertility in general. Now artificial insemination. Billy Wayne

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Speaker 1: traces its roots back to the seventeen hundreds, when a

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Speaker 1: Gottish surgeon what other nationality would have been behind it?

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Speaker 1: Named John Hunter impregnated a woman with her husband's sperm.

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Speaker 1: According to the National Institutes of Health quote, a cloth

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Speaker 1: merchant with severe hypospattius was advised to collect the seamen

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Speaker 1: which escaped during coitus in a warmed syringe and inject

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Speaker 1: the sample into the vagina. Now, hypospattius is a birth

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Speaker 1: defect where the opening of your penis is on the

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Speaker 1: bottom of the head rather than its normal location. So

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Speaker 1: that's the first recorded artificial human insemination. But a clockmaker

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Speaker 1: is that what she said? Uh? Yeah, a cloth merchant

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Speaker 1: is the guy is the guy who like was having

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Speaker 1: trouble knock and his wife. Doctor was like, the way

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Speaker 1: I heard you say it was that they hired him

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Speaker 1: to take the sample, and I was like, what a

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Speaker 1: weird choice. No, no, no, no, that's the that was

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Speaker 1: the client. John Hunter was just like, yeah, we just

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Speaker 1: get to get you a warm syringe, fill it with

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Speaker 1: com and use that as your penis. And he was right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was right, Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. So for

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Speaker 1: most of the next couple of centuries, artificial and eimination

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Speaker 1: was primarily the purview of farmers and mainly used on

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Speaker 1: livestock like cows. Human beings did figure out how to

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Speaker 1: successfully free sperm in order to keep them viable in

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Speaker 1: about nineteen fifty three, but a lot of people thought

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Speaker 1: it was a moral to do that with human sperm,

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Speaker 1: and so it wasn't until the nineteen seventies that artificial

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Speaker 1: insemination of human beings really took off as a practice

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Speaker 1: and started to become very common. What happened that it

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Speaker 1: became okay, I don't know, I think just enough old

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Speaker 1: people died off, and like everyone else was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: why do we give a shit about this? Seven everybody's

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Speaker 1: on fucking cocaine, like whatever. Yeah, uh so. Dr Norman

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Speaker 1: Barrwin then came of age as a doctor at a

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Speaker 1: time when sort of the very first generation of professional

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Speaker 1: fertility doctors were starting to become a thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's been some before, but he was really with like

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Speaker 1: the first wave of people who made it into kind

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Speaker 1: of a mainstream profession. So he was very much on

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Speaker 1: the cutting edge of this science. Tony Hawk, Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: Tony Hawk. He's the Tony Hawk of using cold sperm

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Speaker 1: to impregnate women whose husbands are having difficulties doing that

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Speaker 1: for some reason. That's yeah, yep, yep, a shoot for something,

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Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, I mean Tony Hawk also has a

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Speaker 1: weird cold sperm obsession, but we'll save that for the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and if you're true Tony Hawk Fane, you know what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. Oh yeah, very well aware. Now. Barwin

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Speaker 1: quickly rose to become the president of the Canadian Fertility

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Speaker 1: Society and eventually also the president of the Planned Parenthood

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Speaker 1: Federation of Canada. Barwin worked as a professor of obstetrics

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Speaker 1: and gynecology at the University of Ottawa and I also

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Speaker 1: had a healthy career as a gynecologist. Yeah, so far,

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Speaker 1: he's he's the realist doctor we've talked about, right, without

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Speaker 1: a doubt. There's no there's no bleach. Uh, there's no yet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he hasn't drowned trying to make them. It's like the

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Speaker 1: opposite of what we've been talking about. So right now,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this guy is great. Yeah, right now, this

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Speaker 1: guy does actually seem to be a great doctor. Um.

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Speaker 1: And of course, uh, while he worked you know in

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Speaker 1: a kind of wore a lot of hats as a

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Speaker 1: medical professional, his real passion was increasingly fertility, and once

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Speaker 1: he left the University of Ottawa, he devoted the bulk

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Speaker 1: of his time to helping parents get pregnant. Dr Barwin

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Speaker 1: was beloved by many of his patients. He was invested

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Speaker 1: into the Order of Canada for his quote profound impact

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Speaker 1: on both the biological and psychosocial aspects of women's productive health.

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Speaker 1: He won the Barber cass Begs Award for Women's Reproductive

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Speaker 1: Rights and the Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal for his pioneering

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Speaker 1: success and helping women conceive uh. In fact, Dr Norman

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Speaker 1: Barwin developed such a reputation for his ability to help

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Speaker 1: infertile couples make babies that his patients started giving him

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Speaker 1: a nickname, the baby God. Oh wow, I'm sure that Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, let's just back off that one. It's just

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Speaker 1: that is a weird thing to call someone like like I,

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Speaker 1: I yeah, I don't say, well, like you said like

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Speaker 1: one or two people like hey, the baby got over

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Speaker 1: there and then it catching on is very strange. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like if I had an intractable health issue, like say

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Speaker 1: I had a U T I and like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't get it fixed for like years until like I

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Speaker 1: finally found a doctor who was like able to deal

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Speaker 1: with the problem. I wouldn't call him the urinary tract God.

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Speaker 1: That would be bizarre. That would that would seem weird

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Speaker 1: and not like a compliment. No, no, And he would

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Speaker 1: be like, hey, let's let's don't you shouldn't say that.

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Speaker 1: You don't say that, you should say that. I'll give

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Speaker 1: you another one if you if you never say that again.

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Speaker 1: But doctor, Yeah, he makes babies. And you're like like

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Speaker 1: as like, yeah, if your wife came home, she's like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go see the baby God, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, hmmm, I want to go with you. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go with you. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna check out

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Speaker 1: this guy. Yeah. Yeah. And they spoiler they absolutely should

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Speaker 1: have been checking out this guy, because I think that's

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Speaker 1: what they called Sean Camp was the baby got the

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Speaker 1: baby God. He just had a lot of kids. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's fair. Yeah, yeah, they should have called him Doc

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Speaker 1: stork Um. That was good. That's good. That's better, that's better.

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Speaker 1: And that's not creepy. That's like homie and like kind

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Speaker 1: of warm. You know. Baby God is is creepy. It

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Speaker 1: is creepy, like you too, Yeah, he can kill your baby.

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Speaker 1: It makes me think of uh, from my fellow nerds

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Speaker 1: out there, one of the best monsters in the Dungeons

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Speaker 1: and Dragons, like third edition Monster Manual was this giant,

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Speaker 1: hovering aborded god fetus. It's very cool monster. Um. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's a reference for the nine people uh

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Speaker 1: listening to this podcast right now. I know, I got

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Speaker 1: I just kind of zoned out and then I zoned

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Speaker 1: back in when you said aboarded god atis where I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what are you guys doing over there? That's what reels

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Speaker 1: them all back in is aborted god fetus. Hold on,

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Speaker 1: hold on, say that again. Gods can have abortions, Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: they can. Yeah, and when they have an abortion, that

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Speaker 1: abortion is also a god. That is the problem is

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Speaker 1: not a happy one where abortions become God's because you

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Speaker 1: can't get son of a bitch. So the baby God

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Speaker 1: was the Dr Norman Barwin that the vast, vast majority

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Speaker 1: of people in Canada knew up until quite recently, and

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Speaker 1: to most of them he was considered a hero. But

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Speaker 1: there were some signs early on that not all was

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Speaker 1: well in Dr Barwin's practice in Nive. He made a

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Speaker 1: mistake and gave a couple the wrong sperm for their child. Now,

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Speaker 1: considering how new the science of fertility was in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five, that Air made relatively little impact in his career.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's gonna screw up, even groundbreaking physicians. You can't make

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Speaker 1: babies without spilling a little bit of spine. I mean

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Speaker 1: when you said it, I was like, I mean, whatever, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: everyone's gonna sunk up. Like and you, you know, you

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Speaker 1: consider other doctor mistakes were like a guy dies on

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Speaker 1: the operating table. A baby that's slightly different from the

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Speaker 1: baby you intended to have, not a big deal, right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, jump,

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Speaker 1: this one's way better. Yeah yeah, we both have exzemo.

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Speaker 1: This baby is gonna do great, fantastic. So in the

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Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties, though, it happened again. A lesbian couple

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Speaker 1: sued Dr Barwin for giving them semen other than the

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Speaker 1: semen that they had selected from their chosen donor. Yeah yeah, Now.

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Speaker 1: According to the Toronto Star quote, that incident was designated

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Speaker 1: a prior error in the agreed statement of facts presented

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Speaker 1: to the panel Thursday. On that occasion. Barwin was notified

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Speaker 1: of this error by the College of Physicians and Surgeons

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Speaker 1: of Ontario and states that he took some steps to

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Speaker 1: endeavor to ensure that no such errors would occur in

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Speaker 1: his practice in the future. So again, two errors, you know,

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Speaker 1: in like a decade, really not a big deal. But

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Speaker 1: the errors kept happening twice more during the late nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: and since Dr Barwin inseimilated a lot of ladies, he

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Speaker 1: was still generally seen by most people is incredibly good

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Speaker 1: at it, although it was now clear that there were

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Speaker 1: some issues in his practice. That said, his high success

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Speaker 1: rate meant he would still be the guy that you'd

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Speaker 1: go to when other fertility doctors couldn't get you knocked up,

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Speaker 1: So the mistakes kind of got swept under the rug.

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Speaker 1: Nobody thought anything sinister was going on. Dr Barwin continued

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Speaker 1: his career as a celebrated physician. In two thousand three,

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Speaker 1: during an interview, he told a reporter that accidentally inseminating

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Speaker 1: a patient with the wrong sperm was his quote worst nightmare,

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Speaker 1: which you know, yeah, now a decade later that nightmare

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Speaker 1: burst onto the public stage. Like, I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: should have made like an analogy to to like, you know,

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Speaker 1: water breaking or something, but I didn't think too and

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Speaker 1: I can't properly word it now. I think we're okay

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Speaker 1: without it, you know what I mean? So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think like burst onto the stage like a bunch of

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Speaker 1: amniotic fluid. That good? Yeah, or just yeah because and

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Speaker 1: here's the thing, like just slowly took its time coming out. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's really usually have they in my experience,

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Speaker 1: like they're not like, hey, I'm here, They're like yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they kind of don't want to leave, which considering the world,

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Oh yeah, No, I'm still every time I

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Speaker 1: think about him, like it seems like that we started

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Speaker 1: off in the best bond. Yeah. Every time I have

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Speaker 1: to wake up, I am reminded of how difficult it

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Speaker 1: must be to be a baby. You down and you

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Speaker 1: feel your belly out and you're like, damn it, goddamnit,

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Speaker 1: still not there. So. Dr Barwin was found to have

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Speaker 1: mixed up the sperm that had created four of the

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Speaker 1: babies born from his clinic. According to the Star Quote,

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Speaker 1: at least four of those babies aren't the biological result

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Speaker 1: of their fathers or the sperm donor designated by their

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Speaker 1: mothers because of mistakes at Barwin's clinic experts, dispatched to

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Speaker 1: review procedures at the facility, could isolate no evident reasons

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Speaker 1: for the mix up. Those children will never know the

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Speaker 1: male side of their parentage, thus left forever ignorant of

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Speaker 1: crucial medical history details. So one of those babies had

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Speaker 1: grown into a man by two thousand thirteen, and he

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Speaker 1: testified against Dr Barwin and had to essentially explain what

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Speaker 1: damage had been done to him as the result of

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Speaker 1: the fact that nobody knew who his biological father might be.

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Speaker 1: The twenty five year old asked, why do I look

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Speaker 1: like this? Who do I look like? I know I

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Speaker 1: look like my mother, But what about the other side?

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Speaker 1: I'll never know? Yes, I'm grateful I'm here, but there's

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Speaker 1: the other side, another story. I don't know my medical history,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of scary. It's like, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: a real problem, you know. Uh. And these funk ups

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Speaker 1: at this point, by like isn't thirteen were bad enough

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Speaker 1: that Dr Barwin was finally punished, albeit with the medical

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Speaker 1: equivalent of a slap on the wrist. He was found

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Speaker 1: guilty of unprofessional conduct and incompetence, and his medical license

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Speaker 1: was suspended for sixty days. He also had to thirty

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Speaker 1: dollars in legal fees. The young man who testified against

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Speaker 1: him was not satisfied by this justice just a two

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Speaker 1: month band, He said afterwards, I think you should completely

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Speaker 1: lose his license. So I don't know at that point,

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Speaker 1: you know, Uh, I mean to be honest, if I'm like,

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Speaker 1: if I'm like trying to evaluate it fairly and I

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Speaker 1: don't know the rest of the story, five or six

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Speaker 1: errors in like forty years, it doesn't seem that bad.

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Speaker 1: I don't. That's where I'm at right now too. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just I feel like, I don't know. Have you

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Speaker 1: played baseball? It's mostly years. It's hard. Yeah, everybody sucks

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Speaker 1: up more than that, Like you, I know, like we

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Speaker 1: hold doctors to a higher standard, but still well in

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Speaker 1: the theory we do. But I'm completely with you on

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Speaker 1: this where it's like I just feel like he's and

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Speaker 1: when he sucks up, you still get a baby. You

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Speaker 1: still got a baby. Yeah, there's not alligators coming out

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Speaker 1: of women's like like woombsy, Like he's not sucking up

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Speaker 1: that bad. He gave you just not exactly what you wanted,

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Speaker 1: which feels like what God does anyway in theory, that's

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Speaker 1: just having a kid. Yeah. Now, most doctors probably would

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Speaker 1: have gotten harsher punishments than a sixty days suspension of

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Speaker 1: their license, but the court took Dr Barrwin's sterling career

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Speaker 1: into account, his pro choice advocacy, his groundbreaking work in

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Speaker 1: reconstructive surgery for transgender people, and his many awards. All

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Speaker 1: these mitigating factors saved him from losing his medical license,

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Speaker 1: but they did not save him from attracting greater scrutiny

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Speaker 1: from Canadian journalists. In the wake of his sentencing, The

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Speaker 1: Star published a deep dive into the doctor. The title

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Speaker 1: of their article is one of my favorite titles in

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Speaker 1: journalism history, Wrong Sperm, Dr Barrwin took Shortcuts and career

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Speaker 1: and racist too Wow races. Yeah. Yeah. The reporters the

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Speaker 1: Star revealed that Dr Barwin was also an inveterate marathon cheater,

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Speaker 1: which we're going to talk more about in a little Why.

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Speaker 1: I just my jaw dropped, because that's just like why,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that. Yeah, that's not one to cheat

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Speaker 1: on You're just like, yeah, anyone can cheating, is not

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Speaker 1: That's hilarious. I think it all makes sense when we

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Speaker 1: get through the rest of this guy's backstory because it

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Speaker 1: all it all seems actually kind of pretty much in

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Speaker 1: line to me. But yeah, it's it's quite a title.

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Speaker 1: What do they call him? Wrong sperm doctor? That is

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Speaker 1: a good I mean, if you're gonna go with baby

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Speaker 1: God for a while, I think wrong sperm doctor is

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Speaker 1: fitting when they figure you out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

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Speaker 1: love thinking of the editorial meeting where they're like, how

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Speaker 1: do we get across that this is a doctor who

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Speaker 1: put the wrong sperm in people? In the fewest words possible,

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Speaker 1: what about wrong sperm doctor? And they all laughed and

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Speaker 1: then they were like, let's do it. Yeah, it's Canada

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Speaker 1: up there now, Billy Wayne. You know what's as good

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Speaker 1: as calling Dr Barrwin the wrong sperm doctor? This transition

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Speaker 1: to ads, it was smooth. I was like, yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: is this silk? Are we on silk right now? You

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Speaker 1: barely noticed it, didn't You almost slid right by? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I thought we were still talking. Slid right by like

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Speaker 1: one of the baby gods babies sliding out of a

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Speaker 1: birth canal. Say you still don't what you wanted? Yep,

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Speaker 1: I did? I think that should have been You'll get

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Speaker 1: you might not get what you want, but you'll get

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Speaker 1: what you want. And speaking of getting what you want

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Speaker 1: products and we're back. That started out as a rough

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Speaker 1: transition to ads, but I think I think we found

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Speaker 1: the right transition to right. It felt right, It felt right.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like, Hey, you don't always get the

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Speaker 1: baby be you'd planned to have, but you always get

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Speaker 1: the baby you're supposed to have, the you're supposed to have,

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Speaker 1: unless your baby's hitler. Then you know. I still think

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Speaker 1: that there was a couple that was the baby they

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Speaker 1: were supposed to have them. Yep, that's how destiny works,

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Speaker 1: I think so. Um. Yeah, So, reporters with the Star

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Speaker 1: found out that Dr Barwin was a marathon cheater, which yeah, again,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get to it a little bit. They also

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Speaker 1: found out that, despite being a professor of gynecology uh

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Speaker 1: and a practicing gynecologist, Dr Barwin was not in fact

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Speaker 1: a gynecologist. Uh yeah, or at least he was not

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Speaker 1: a Canadian gynecologist. He had been a gynecologist in Northern

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Speaker 1: Ireland and when he'd moved to Canada, his employer had

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Speaker 1: let him do the job with the understanding that in

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Speaker 1: three years he would need to take the gynecology exam

402
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Speaker 1: for the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada.

403
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Speaker 1: Dr Barwin did take that test several times, but he

404
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Speaker 1: repeatedly failed it. He maintained his status as a general physician,

405
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: but that was it now. Somehow, in spite of this,

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Speaker 1: he was made the director of the High Risk Pregnancy

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Speaker 1: Clinic and the co director of the Fertility Clinic, and

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Speaker 1: he was allowed to teach other people how to be gynecologists.

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Speaker 1: Um rude Canada follow up a question, I guess yeah,

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Speaker 1: Are you don't be rude? I'm sorry. I'm sorry he

411
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Speaker 1: failed this test. Should we tell him he can't work?

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Speaker 1: Is again ecologist anymore? Just go to the Tim Horton's Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh so, I'm gonna quote again from the Star. Attempting

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Speaker 1: to explain how this happened. Questioned long afterwards by the

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Speaker 1: Ottawa Citizen, Barwin it first claimed he left Ottawa General

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Speaker 1: because he wanted more freedom than implied resentment among professional colleagues,

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Speaker 1: and finally asserted that he had nothing to prove because

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Speaker 1: he'd been certified by the Royal College of Obstetrics and

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Speaker 1: Gynecologists in England. He did indicate embarrassment over the controversy.

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Speaker 1: I'm not proud of it. I ain't got nothing improve,

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Speaker 1: I ain't got nothing to prove. I ain't taking your test.

422
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: I ain't trying to prove I'm a doctor. Well, you

423
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: said you're a doctor, and you didn't say you could

424
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 1: do this job, and then failed the tests that we've

425
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: set to make sure people could do this job. Now

426
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: that you have nothing to prove, you can't prove it.

427
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: I tried using that line the last time I failed

428
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: a driver's license test. It did not work. Um, but

429
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: I ain't trying to prove you people I've never made.

430
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: I can't drive a car, or can drive a car.

431
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: I ain't what I'm trying to do, you asked the

432
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: homeless man embedded in the grill of my truck. If

433
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: I can drive, he'll tell you. I knows how. First

434
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: of all, I don't think it's any of your business

435
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: if I'm drunk or not. Right now, that's not your bid.

436
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: I got nothing to prove. I ain't anything proved. Now

437
00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: give me my picture car. Oh all right now, Billy,

438
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: are you ready to talk about Dr Barwin's marathon cheating? Yes,

439
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: I that was that. I don't know why piques my

440
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: interest more than the making babies. He's not supposed to

441
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: because because I feel like that's just most of professional athletes. Well,

442
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: in the year two thousand, doctor but not a guy

443
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: in ecologist Barwin ran the Boston Marathon, and he pulled

444
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: down a pretty incredible time three hours and seventeen minutes.

445
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: That put him at Yeah, that's a good ass time. Now,

446
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: that put him at number fourteen in the sixty to

447
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: sixty nine age group. And for some reference to people

448
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 1: who aren't runners, a three hour and seventeen minute marathon

449
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: would be fucking good if you were twenty like that,

450
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: that's a great time for a healthy young person that

451
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: runs a lot. His time at the Victoria Marathon in

452
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: British Columbia, which had qualified him for the Boston Marathon,

453
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: had been even better. He'd managed it in less than

454
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: three hours. But it's that is insane. Would be incredible

455
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: if he had actually gotten either of those times to see.

456
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: The Boston Marathon doesn't just take people's word for their time.

457
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: It monitors runners with cameras, referees, computer timing equipment, and

458
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: microchips attached to the shoes of runners, and when race

459
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: officials looked into Dr Barwin's time, they found a couple

460
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: of issues. Glenn McGregor, a reporter for the Ottawa Citizen,

461
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: who dug into Barwin, managed to dig up a letter

462
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: the director of the marathon had sent Barwin three days

463
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: after the race, quote, you failed to appear at multiple

464
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: checkpoints along the marathon route. Please provide this office with

465
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: any information that may be helpful to assist in authenticating

466
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: that you did run the entire marathon course, including type

467
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: of clothing worn, other visual identification, split times, companion runners,

468
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: et cetera. Dr Barwin had, of course, nothing to back

469
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: up his claims he was disqualified. He will tell you

470
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: exactly where. Uh. He was disqualified and banned forever from

471
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: the Boston Marathon. A month later, when McGregor questioned him

472
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: about this, initial response, his answer was quote I'm not

473
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: quite sure now what happened, whether I had a faulty

474
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: chip or what. But later, according to the Star quote,

475
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: he changed his story, admitting he dropped out around the

476
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: tin k point because of an inguinial hernia, jumping back

477
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: in at the end because he wanted to experience the

478
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: exhilaration of crossing the finished level group of friends. I

479
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: thought i'd feel the high of coming in. I got

480
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: a friend to give me a lift to the finish.

481
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: Barwin told the paper, I have a hard time with this.

482
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: It wasn't my intent to do this. It was a

483
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: breaking point, you know. Yeah, it's a breaking point. Yeah. Man, Hey,

484
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: I gotta I want to feel like wants it feel

485
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: like a win. Like now you should get nothing nothing

486
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: to do out of your side right now. Man. No,

487
00:27:52,640 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: So you're a doctor, so the gynecologist. Okay, okay, best

488
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: gynecologist in Canada. Now let me see that vagina and

489
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: he just like lifts up a woman's name. So The

490
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: Ottawa Citizen doug further and found that Dr Barwin had

491
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: also cheated at a local marathon in Ottawa. He'd finished

492
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: first in his age group at just over three hours,

493
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: but later digging found that he'd never finished the second

494
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: lap of the race. When pressed on this, Barwin again

495
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: blamed his hernia, claimed he'd limped out of the race,

496
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 1: and assumed they'd have recorded him as quitting, even though

497
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: he rejoined the race a kilometer away from the finish line.

498
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: It's really embarrassing for me. It was quite out of character.

499
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: I promise you. Yeah, getting caught that is not in

500
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: my character. I cheat. I am not used to getting caught,

501
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: and I am embarrassed right now now. Unfortunately for Dr Barwin,

502
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: this is the part of the story where he starts

503
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: getting caught at stuff besides Marathon cheese. I think so, yeah,

504
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: because I know anything about her, because I feel like

505
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: the whole time, she's like, did you cheat again? Cheat again?

506
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: He's like, I beat three hours. She's like, you keep cheating. Yeah.

507
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: He's the kind of guy that would like come back

508
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: from a football game with a stolen trophy and been like,

509
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: look at me, I'm a running back. I won the

510
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: football game today. She's like, you're sixty one years old.

511
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: So I played for the Argonaze played for the Toronto

512
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: Organ Now. Dr Barwin maintained his medical license for another

513
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: year after that two case where he got suspended for

514
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: two months. But now that his name was in the

515
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: news for mixing up sperm, other Barwin babies and their

516
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: parents started getting DNA tests to see if they were

517
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: who they thought they were. Yeah, this became a problem

518
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: very quickly. One Barwin baby eventually began to suspect that

519
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: the doctor himself was her biological father after a DNA

520
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: test showed she was not genetically related to the man

521
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: who had raised her. According to NBC quote, Barwin confirmed

522
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: through a DNA test that he was her father, but

523
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: said the only occasion he had used his own seamen

524
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: was when he was calibrating an automatic sperm counter, and

525
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: some of it must have become mixed up with donor sperm.

526
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: Oh man, come on, dude, you're buying that billy God.

527
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: I was cleaning it and it went I was cleaning

528
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: mind and it went off. And that's what that's how,

529
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: that's how you got here. I must have shot it

530
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: into the the crop pot of other jizz in my laboratory.

531
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: Shouldn't have kept him all in the same bowl. I mean,

532
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: it isn't hanging like when you confront somebody like that.

533
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: You everyone expects like that moment when you're like, ah,

534
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: I got you, and they're gonna be like, Okay, you

535
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: got me. But that never happens with people like this.

536
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: They're always like no. Probably what happened was like a

537
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: bird came and took some of my jazz and put

538
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: it in the US and then we had a bird problem.

539
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: And you're just like I can't even this is god

540
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: damn it. Yes, that's all you can say is just

541
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: God damn And he's like, goddamn it, there's fucking birds. Yeah,

542
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: you know. So, uh, that lie, if it ever was believable,

543
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: and I don't think that it was crumbled immediately under

544
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: a flood of new victims. One of these was a

545
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: patient who had given birth in ninete to a daughter.

546
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: She thought she that Dr Barwin had used her husband sperm,

547
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: but then her daughter wound up with Celiac disease, a

548
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: genetic condition neither parents shared. Dr Barwin resigned his medical

549
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: license and shame in two thousand fourteen, but people continued

550
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: to come forward. One of those people was a young

551
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: woman with the last name of Palmer. Her journey started

552
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: with the DNA test she took for an online registry.

553
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: She knew she'd been the product of a sperm donor,

554
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: and she wanted to know if she had any relations

555
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: in the area. To her surprise, she had one, a

556
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: second cousin who just so happened to be related to

557
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: Dr Barwin, the futility doctor who had artificially inseminated her mother.

558
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: Palmer set to work trying to unravel this mystery. At

559
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: one point, she confronted Dr Barwin, who informed her that

560
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: Alas he'd lost the donor registry and there was no

561
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: way to figure out who her biological father was. Oops,

562
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: it was me. It was me. But oops, we don't know.

563
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: I don't know it was me. We don't have any

564
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: proof to it must have went down the that fucking

565
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: bird dropped it into the jiz bucket. Now, now all

566
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: the inks run off, and I'm gonna quote now from

567
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: the Ottawa Citizen. I don't know how this happened, she

568
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: recounts Barwin telling her, and what would have become a

569
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: familiar refrain, the fertility doctor had something else to say

570
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: to Palmer. He told me, I was Sessa for wanting

571
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: the answer. You are young, You are in a healthy relationship.

572
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: Isn't that enough for you? He asked, That's such a dick. Yeah,

573
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: Palmer says she tried to Yeah, what you're here? What

574
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: you're here? You got a boyfriend? Why do you care?

575
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: Who sperm made you? Shut up? Now? Palmer says she

576
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: tried to be cordial as possible to keep a line

577
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: of communication open. Inside, she says she was seething with

578
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: rage at the roadblocks. Dr Barrwin's clinic seemed to be

579
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: putting up to prevent her from getting more information about herself.

580
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: I can't imagine you, like at one point, no daughter

581
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: of mine's going to talk to me likely this, and

582
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: you're just like damn. I was trying to get into

583
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: his head that this isn't a ridiculous question. You are

584
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: not breeding puppies, you are creating humans. This seems really

585
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: reasonable like Palmer eventually grew convinced that her sperm donor

586
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: had either been Dr Barwin or someone close to him.

587
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: She did eventually get him to take a DNA test

588
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 1: that confirmed he was her father. Dr Barrwin insisted this

589
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: had all been the result of some tremendous, terrible funk up.

590
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: In a two thift email, he wrote her this quote,

591
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: I cannot understand how this could have happened. This has

592
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: caused me much stress and remorse. I regret that we

593
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: both have had to endure this major disruption. Special me

594
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: illegal or me act me purposefully using my own sperm

595
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: instead of your biologic or you're the guy who raised

596
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: you sperm to make you is a problem for both

597
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: of us, and I would have gotten away with it

598
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: too if it wasn't for rome A Midling kids. That's

599
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: the antitude he has with all of it, is like,

600
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: what the fuck? No, yeah, and none of it, And

601
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: you guys are mad at me. I don't understand exist.

602
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: Some of you are dating people. Come on, it sounds

603
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: like some of you are coming to what's the problem. Yeah. Now,

604
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: he begged Palmer not to tell anybody, and for a

605
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: while she did keep this a secret, but doing so

606
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: aided her, and in two thousand sixteen, she sent Dr

607
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: Barwin this email quote, First, let me make clear what

608
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: I don't expect. I don't expect to suddenly be part

609
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: of the Barwin family, nor do I want to be.

610
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: I certainly don't expect any money or other forms of inheritance.

611
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: What I want is much simpler than that. I don't

612
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: want to feel the burden of hiding who I am,

613
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: the fullness of who I am. I expect his children

614
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: and grandchildren to know I exist, that I am connected

615
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: to them in this slightly confusing way, and that the

616
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: relationship is not my fault. It's not some threat from

617
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: an outsider. I was just born, and the nature of

618
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: my birth and my genetic relationship to them is entirely

619
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: from choices or mistakes that others made, totally reasonable. All

620
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: of that is insanely reasonable, considering the circumstances and what

621
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: has happened. That might be the most reasonable paragraph that's

622
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: ever been read on this show. Without that I've heard,

623
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: without a doubt. Yeah, without a doubt, that's the most

624
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: reasonable human thing we've heard. And it was just like,

625
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: listen what you did. I don't want anything from you.

626
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: I just need to be able to acknowledge who I

627
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: am as a human person. And he's like, hey, easy.

628
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: We think about his response. No, no, now it makes

629
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: me want to jump out the window already, Like when

630
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: you said, here's his response, I'm already like I don't

631
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: want to. I don't know well, and the window next

632
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: to you is the poison room, so that would be

633
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: doubly dangerous. Be dead. And then all yet, and then

634
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: we'll make sure I'm taking Barwin's response is what I'm

635
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: going to read now, so if it makes sure the

636
00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: poison room doors locked. I am concerned that if this

637
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 1: becomes public, my professional credibility will be damaged. I am

638
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: so sorry that my issue. I am so sorry that

639
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: my issues are causing such an impact on you. It's

640
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: not that I don't want to let my children know

641
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: about you. It's just that I am worried about how

642
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: they will feel about me. If you plan to inform others.

643
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: My concerned is he's such a piece of ship. God,

644
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: I mean a clinical psychologists like tell him to come

645
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: say me, holy shit. I feel like I feel like

646
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: the I'm not a psychologist, but I feel like the

647
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: ethical response if he went to a clinical psychologist would

648
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: be for that psychologist to hit him in the face. Yeah, Oh,

649
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: you're the case. Come here. That's that's the one case

650
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: in the d s M. Like they line this out

651
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: years ago. Nobody's ever done it. No, it says here,

652
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: you're the only type of person I can punch. I

653
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: have to counsel serial killers, but you I can hit.

654
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: I get to punch, you get to punch it. Yeah.

655
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: I'm not done reading his response. M. If you plan

656
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: to inform others, my concern is how they will see me. Again,

657
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: it is not about you. You have been very understanding, reasonable, impatient,

658
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: and from what I can gather, you are a fabulous person.

659
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: I wanted to let you know why I have been delaying.

660
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to come to terms with what I

661
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: have done and how my family will feel about me

662
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: if they were aware of my unintentional action. See, it's

663
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: not about you. The issue of who your father is

664
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: is not about you. It's about me, the guy who

665
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: conned your mother into getting my come inside here. Well,

666
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: and and he doesn't even say that he doesn't even know,

667
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: he's not even that honest. He says that the my

668
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: unintentional action, which is still like no, dude, no dude,

669
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: you can't start it with me, and like you're gonna

670
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: funk up my doctor thing. You're not thinking about me

671
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 1: or me or may here. And then also, I didn't

672
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: do this, it was an accident. We're like, well, none

673
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 1: of what you said, none of it. It's like, even

674
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: if you're worried about your doctor's thing, then you admit

675
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: that you're not a good doctor in the same thing. Yeah,

676
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: it's very frustrating now, I mean sure, I mean before

677
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: we read that, I was like, well, this guy's obvious

678
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: the narcissist where he's just like I wanna everyone from

679
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: taking my seed. And then he can't even respond without

680
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: being like, you're not even thinking about me. You're like, oh,

681
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: he's Wow. Yeah, this guy is a hardcore narcissist. And

682
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: by two thousand nineteen, it was clear that Dr Barwin

683
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: had been responsible for mixing up the sperm donors between

684
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: fifty one and a hundred babies, and quite possibly many

685
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: many more. For sure. Yeah, because there's a bunch of

686
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 1: kids like you went to that doctor. Fuck, I don't

687
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: want you. You know what, you shouldn't read up on it. Now.

688
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: It was also shown that he had been the donor

689
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,959
Speaker 1: himself for at least eleven of those babies. More more, way, more, more,

690
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: way more. I'm I'm if I had money to bet

691
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: for on this, this would be like, yeah, there's more.

692
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot more Barwin babies who were literal Barwin babies. Yeah. Now,

693
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: at this point it became clear that whatever had gone

694
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: down was no accident. Dr Barwin had purposefully impregnated women

695
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: with his sperm against their will. Now, Billy, in a

696
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: reasonable world, would you consider would you think that would

697
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: be a crime. It sounds I mean, by definition, it

698
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: sounds like, right, yeah, it's not rape. But it lives

699
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: in the same housing development. Okay, I understand it. It's

700
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: the same shitty gated community. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's the

701
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: same shitty gated community is um you know what's not

702
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: in the same gated community as rate Billy Wayne Davis

703
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: hopefully Hope Koke Brother that Yeah. I mean actually if

704
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: it's if it's a Koke Brother's ad, it might be

705
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: in that ballpark they built the gated community. That they

706
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: built the gated community, and they built it above a

707
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: leaky gas pipeline on a Native American reservation. Anyway, Thus

708
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: begins are most smoothly led into ad break of all

709
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: time products. Nice job, We're back. Yes, uh so, as

710
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: I kind of animated in the before the lead out,

711
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: this was not against the law. Um, nothing exactly exactly.

712
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: Nobody thought this would happen. I think all of the

713
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: assemblies look at each other like, I mean it should

714
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: be but yeah, ship, yeah, I haven't had this issue before.

715
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,479
Speaker 1: It's like committing tax fraud in space, Like nobody quite

716
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: thought to like make sure that that was down in

717
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: the books. Yes, yes, he international waters the ship out

718
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: of that, didn't you. Yeah. Now. The only official come

719
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: up and that Dr Barwin suffered was a disciplinary panel

720
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario. Dr

721
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: Barwin did not show up at his own hearing, denying

722
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: his victims a chance to get any kind of closure.

723
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 1: He just showed up at the end, right, No, he

724
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: didn't even show up. And just to think that that's

725
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: what he like, he started the hearing and then left

726
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: and then showed up right before it ended. That would

727
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: be true to form. I just wanted to feel like

728
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: what the Simonson was, That's all. I just wanted to

729
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: feel it. I wanted to feel the feeling of being

730
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: sent I just wanted to feel it. Yeah. I had

731
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: a hernie, Yeah, like HERNI and UT was like, is

732
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: he doing the marathon? Is THEO thinkking? He now? Dr

733
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: Barwin claimed that he could not make the hearing due

734
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: to unspecified medical issues, which he provided no evidence for

735
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 1: uh and his doctor pleaded or his lawyer pleaded no contest,

736
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: which meant that he did not dispute the facts of

737
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: the case, but also did not admit guilt. It's basically like,

738
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: how can I give the people I wronged the least

739
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: amount of closure? That's what he did. Yeah. Now, there

740
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: is currently a class action lawsuit against Dr Barwin in

741
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: the offing, and if it actually goes through, Dr Barwin

742
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: might wind up in a court. But even so, there

743
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be any chance of him actually facing

744
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: serious criminal penalties for his actions. See It turns out

745
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: that assisted human reproduction as an industry is kind of

746
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: preposterous lee unregulated pretty much everywhere on Earth. In Canada,

747
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: the organization respond for be keeping an eye on the

748
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: practice is Assisted Human Reproduction Canada, a federal regulatory body

749
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: established in two thousand six. They are supposed to keep

750
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: track of donor conceived kids and make sure people like

751
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: Dr Barwin don't get to impregnate numerous women in secret.

752
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: But in two thousand eight, two years after the organization's founding,

753
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: the Province of Quebec challenged the federal government's jurisdiction. The

754
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: case spent years meyern in the Canadian Supreme Court, and

755
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: during that time Health Canada was unable to actually develop

756
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 1: any regulations. In two thousand twelve, the agency was defunded

757
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 1: and responsibility for regulating fertility clinics was returned to the States.

758
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: So there's barely anyone keeping watch, and up until recently

759
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: there were barely any laws in Canada, certainly none aimed

760
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: at stopping someone like Normwin Barwin from using his own

761
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 1: sperm on donors. And this is not just a Canadian problem. Basically,

762
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: everywhere the fertility industry exists, it does so with almost

763
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: no regulation or oversight. The executive director for the Center

764
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: for Genetics and Society called the United States the wild

765
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: West of the utility industry. It was huge news in

766
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen when Utah, of all places, passed a

767
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 1: law giving donor conceived children the right to know their

768
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: genetic parents medical history. Like crazy that Utah would actually

769
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: be the first to like the state that's like, yeah,

770
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 1: you can sell people lead and call it a vitamin

771
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: that if you have four, you can do that if

772
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: you got four. Um. Now, Utah is kind of unique

773
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: in passing this law because most states don't regulate even

774
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: like don't even regulate how many children can be conceived

775
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: by a single donor. Like though that Utah did it

776
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 1: for some fat channel Mormon genetic thing where they're making

777
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: sure if I, if I was a better researcher, I

778
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 1: would have checked in on that. I was just happy

779
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: to see that somebody had instituted that law in the

780
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: United States and shocked that it was Utah. I'm not

781
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: sure why it was Utah, and I don't It might

782
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 1: just be Mormons, but it's just they're just that the

783
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: way they do government there is very interesting. So I

784
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: mean it might just be that, like because uh, there's

785
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: so many large families in Utah, the fertility industry is

786
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 1: bigger there and so they needed to start regulating it

787
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: earlier than other places. I really don't know. I think

788
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: you said it more articularly than where it was just like,

789
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: do you think it's weird Mormon shit? You know it's

790
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: got to be weird Mormons. It's Utah, right, like everything traces. Yeah, yeah,

791
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: you can't get you gotta mix your liquor behind a curtain,

792
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: but you can know who your biological father was. Confusing. Uh,

793
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: Now this is where we leave Dr Barwin. What I

794
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: found in my research is that he isn't so much

795
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: a bastard as one member of a species of bastards.

796
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: And this brings me to the story of Dr Donald Klein.

797
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: He was an Indianapolis era fertility doctor in the nineteen

798
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: seventies and nineteen eighties, the same wild and wooly days

799
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: that Dr Barwin started practicing. You want to guess where

800
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: this story goes, Billy Way, No, no, you know what

801
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm gonna quote from the New York Times

802
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: here quote. Many couples sawt Dr Klein out at his

803
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: Indianapolis Air of Fertility clinic during the seventies and eighties.

804
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: They had children who grew up and had children of

805
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: their own with the couples did not know was that

806
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: an untold number of occasions Dr Klein was not using

807
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 1: the sperm of anonymous donors. He was using his own.

808
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: Through twenty three and Me and other similar genetic testing websites,

809
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: three dozen half siblings of those women have been found

810
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: three dozen. About three dozen, said Jacoba Ballard, thirty eight,

811
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: one of the biological daughters. She expects the number to grow.

812
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: In some instances, State prosecutors said Dr Klein even told

813
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: women that he was using their husband's sperm but provided

814
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: his own. What is the thought? Is it that doctor

815
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: thing that they get where they're like, I am, is

816
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: it some weird I think it's narcissism. And I'll ask you, well,

817
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: hold onto that thought, because once we get a little

818
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: bit more information, I think we can discuss this in detail,

819
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: and I think there's a pretty clear conclusion here. Um.

820
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: But I want to go through the other cases. So

821
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: there's like there's like a like you said, a species

822
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: of man that it's like, yeah, it's a whole type

823
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: of guy. Wow. Yeah don special certainly not Dr Norman Barwin.

824
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: Even if you think, hey, I'm just secretly impregnating all

825
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: these women, I am. No one else is doing this

826
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: ship there's like four other people. Yeah I'm doing it. Yeah,

827
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: you're like yeah, I mean I've had to deal with

828
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: that feeling just because of the existence of the dollar,

829
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: and it's nice to know that that's true with doctors

830
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: who use their own sperm as well. Yes, yes, where

831
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: you go to an audition and everyone looks like you

832
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: and you're like what you fuck? Yeah, that's really Uh.

833
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: That's one of the things about Los Angeles that can

834
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: drive you crazy is how he said you could be

835
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: sorted into a type yeah, or or you go down

836
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: aunditions like I went to one where it was written

837
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: for me like I was the guy, Like they were like,

838
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: we want Billy Wayne Davis, and then I went and

839
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: I didn't get it because someone did it better than me.

840
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: He was better Billy Wayne Davis than you, And I

841
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: was like he probably was. He probably was. They had

842
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: their look or whatever whatever company was like, yeah, that's

843
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: he's better than the real one. I mean we actually

844
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: we were planning to have you on the show a

845
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: lot earlier, Billy Wayne, but you know, you kind of

846
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: flubbed the audition. And I have to say, Jamie, it

847
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: was a great Billy Wayne Davis. Yeah, she's uh so.

848
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: Dr Klein is still alive, but his refused doggedly to

849
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: address any of this or to explain himself to his victims.

850
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: In December of two thousand eighteen, he played guilty to

851
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: two felony counts of obstruction of justice and was given

852
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: a suspended three hundred and sixty five days sentence. Now,

853
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: the only reason he received that much of a punishment,

854
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: and any kind of criminal punishment at all, was because

855
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: he lied to state investigators when he initially claimed he

856
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: hadn't used his own sperm to impregnate anyone. The fact

857
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: that he had tricked a bunch of women into burying

858
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: his genetic material was not a crime. Now, if he

859
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: wouldn't admitted to it would be fine. He probably would

860
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: have lost his medical license like that that stuff they

861
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: can do for it, But he wouldn't have gone. He

862
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: wouldn't have gotten a criminal sentence, yeah what, but would

863
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: it would have put him in like civil Yeah yeah, yeah.

864
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: I mean you can sue people civilly for anything, and

865
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: I think he's certainly at risk for that because he definitely,

866
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 1: like you can claim material harm for what he did,

867
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 1: because the ego of like not admitting it when you're

868
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: doing it, because I think they want it's like, you know,

869
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 1: that's a thing you're like. I think part of them,

870
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: like someone was like, hey, you can't admit you did

871
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: this because you will have zero money ever again, Yeah,

872
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 1: maybe that's the case. Um. Now, the state medical board

873
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: did bar him from holding a medical license again, but

874
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: since Dr Klein had retired in two thousand nine, this

875
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: isn't an enormous punishment. We have no way of knowing

876
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: how many of his genetic children are out there. Meanwhile,

877
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: those children have no way of knowing who their biological

878
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: father was because Dr Klein shredded all of his patient records.

879
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: Cool cool dude. In nineteen ninety two, in Virginia, a

880
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: fertility doctor named Cecil Jacobsen was indicted for using his

881
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: own sperm to impregnate dozens of women. Now, it was

882
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 1: illegal in Virginia. So Virginias, you can take some pride

883
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: in the fact that your state is way ahead of

884
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: the curve on this. He was sentenced to five years

885
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: in prison and more than a hundred and sixteen thousand

886
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: dollars in fines, but even so it still took decades

887
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: and more than fifty pregnancies for anyone to catch him. Now,

888
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: Jacobsen was a Brown University graduate who went on to

889
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: be the chief of reproductive genetics at George Washington University.

890
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: In the nineteen sixties, he claimed to have successfully implanted

891
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: a fertilized baboon egg into a male baboon and kept

892
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: the pregnancy viable for nearly four months. He never published

893
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: to this work, and he's probably lying about it, but

894
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: the fact that he considered this something to brag about

895
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: probably should have been a red flag decades earlier. Now,

896
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote from a medical bag dot com

897
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: article on the man quote. By the nineteen eighties, Jacobson

898
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: had started operating a genetic center in Virginia. He proclaimed

899
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: himself a fertility specialist and began treating patients who had

900
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: difficulties getting pregnant. He used the hormone human chorionic gonado

901
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 1: gonado trope him hCG regularly, and as a form of treatment,

902
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: Jacobson would falsify pregnancies, have patients undergo ultrasounds, and then

903
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 1: tell them that the fetus had died. Around the third

904
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: month of pregnancy, suspicions began to arise, which reported to

905
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: local authorities. Federal investigators stepped in and came to find that,

906
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: in addition to the falsified pregnancies, Jacobson had been artificially

907
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 1: inseminating patients with sperm, supposedly from screen and anonymous donors.

908
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: The investigators determined that there was no donor program and

909
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: that Jacobson was using his own sperm to impregnate patients. Program. Yeah,

910
00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: there's a program program Jacobson. Uh. It's suspected that in total,

911
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: Jacobson probably fathered as many as seventy five children with

912
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: his own seamen. But okay, there's another part of this

913
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: where it's like you're not actually getting laid either. No,

914
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: I don't think that's it. I don't think that's it.

915
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 1: I know it's not it. But it is like a

916
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 1: fun part of making a baby. It is the better

917
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,320
Speaker 1: part of making It's way better than like you know,

918
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 1: glass and then putting in the thing and maybe yeah, yeah, yeah,

919
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, when they turn out to be

920
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: Will Wheaton, but yeah, all of those other parts sucked

921
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: to now. There are many fertility doctors with stories like this.

922
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: On August two thousand, nineteen, two days before I wrote

923
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: this script, Today Magazine published an article titled their Mothers

924
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: chose donor sperm, their doctor's used their own. It tells

925
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: the story of Eve Whiley, who learned at age sixteen

926
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: that she'd been conceived via artificial insemination. The doctor responsible,

927
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 1: Kim mcmoury's, told her mother that he'd found said sperm

928
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: through a California sperm bank and believe this to be

929
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: true until she took a consumer DNA test. You've told

930
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 1: reporters you build your whole life on your genetic identity,

931
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: and that's the foundation. But when those bottom bricks have

932
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: been removed or altered, it can be devastating. I I

933
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: will say in the future, I'm going to use California

934
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: Sperm Bank as a pseudonym from my testicles, but I

935
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: think only when I'm in California like that, Yeah, I

936
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: got it from California Sperm Bank. You can be sure

937
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: of that. And I like that a lot of this

938
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: was discovered with the with the commercial commercialization of DNA testing.

939
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: Like the doctors are like walking to a CVS the

940
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: first time they saw like a DNA test thing and

941
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: they're like, this is not good. This ain't gonna work

942
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: well for me like that. Do you know, now, dr?

943
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: What do you think of this twenty three and me stuff?

944
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: It's a scam. It's a scam. It's bad And the

945
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: best part is it is kind of a scam. This

946
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: is basically the only thing it was be good for. Yeah,

947
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: and in helping catch murderers. I think, I think for

948
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: yeah stuff, it's a lot of problematic aspects, but in

949
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: this case it did a good thing. Yeah, what do

950
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 1: you think of twenty three and Well? I discover that

951
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,439
Speaker 1: my dad is a doctor that is also the data

952
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 1: send me for other people that we know about. Yeah,

953
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: you don't hear that commercial on the park? I found

954
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: out my family comes from Norway. Now, partly as a

955
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: result of Eve's case, Texas has passed a law making

956
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: this sort of thing a crime. It is now defined

957
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: as sexual assault there So, in this one case, Texas

958
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: is actually an example of like a reasonable and timely

959
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: response to a clear problem. So it happened once in

960
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: Texas state history. Good for them, Good, good for them.

961
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: We should get Texas. You get a lot of ship

962
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: and deservedly so, and deservedly so, you deserve it. But hey,

963
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: good job on this one. On this one. Nailed it,

964
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: don't you nailed it? Yeah, don't get you nailed it?

965
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: Like the biological pair or like the people who raised

966
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 1: all these kids? Uh did not nail there. You know

967
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: you could see where the joke I was trying to

968
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: go for there was. Yeah, it just didn't work out.

969
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: See why you chose journalism. But I I do think

970
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: like yeah, like and even with the Canada thing or

971
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: the Mormon thing, it's like, I do feel like there's

972
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: probably livestock. There's a livestock reason somewhere involved in while

973
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 1: they're ahead of this, somebody reads this story about people

974
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: and it's like, my god, this is going to infect

975
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: the steers. Yes, that's industry, that's our industry here. It's like, yeah, No,

976
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 1: I do think there's probably something because like that's how

977
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: I know about artificial insemination is because I was raising

978
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: cattle farm and it's not as complicated a process as

979
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: people would think it is. No, no, it is not.

980
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: It is not. Although I think people would be interested

981
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: at the lengths that are gone to to stop bowls

982
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: from actually having sex with anything. Yes, yeah, that that's

983
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: an entertaining part of that, and it's yeah, they get

984
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: them all worked up and then they're like, hey, how

985
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna stop and record. There's a lot of like

986
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: in the meat industry, there's a lot of like, uh,

987
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: things to be angry about in terms of an injustice,

988
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: but that should be on the list. Yes, yeah, it's

989
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: not as bad as like keeping animals in their own

990
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: fecal matter outside of sunlight and stuff in a cramped pin.

991
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: But it's still not cool me. They don't want those

992
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: dudes on Yeah, they are on re sons of bitches

993
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: and they're just like, oh, you're mad because that dudes

994
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: on you. No, No, I don't care. He's on my back.

995
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: They haven't let me fuck you know, why don't you?

996
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: For an idea of like the environment I grew up in,

997
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: my mom's favorite sport to watch was bull riding, primarily

998
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 1: for when the guys would get horribly injured. Of watching

999
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: those guys get fucked up by both. It's awesome. It's awesome.

1000
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: It is awesome. That's what you And it's like when

1001
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: that's one the whole problem with the NFL not coming forward,

1002
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 1: just say it causes brain damage, and then they sign

1003
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: a waiver and you get to make a bunch of money.

1004
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: We know, guns kill people and it's a huge industry

1005
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: in the United States. If you were just like, yeah,

1006
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: football is horrible for people, do you still want to

1007
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: make a hundred million dollars? People would still say yes,

1008
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: I know it already and do it. Yeah. And then

1009
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: when someone stops, like Andrew Luck and everybody's like what

1010
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: is he doing, He's like, well, I think he's he

1011
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 1: wants to enjoy his millions of dollars before his brain melts.

1012
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: He just wants to remember what life is like. Yeah, yeah, god, yeah,

1013
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: he knows he's got ten years left before he shoots

1014
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: himself in the chest and leaves a note telling doctors

1015
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: to study his brain. My brain because I'm a good person.

1016
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: But this which has happened to a bunch of those guys.

1017
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: Number one Junior say oh that you know about that,

1018
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: there's other ones that have that you don't know about.

1019
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: That are like this, I gotta I'm tired of being crazy. Yeah, horrible.

1020
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: Thank god. I went to the football practice in college.

1021
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: It was like, fuck this. I did play for a

1022
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: season in high school, but I was not good at it.

1023
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: Uh And I mostly avoided the head injuries. See that

1024
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: was pretty good at it in high school, so I

1025
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: could avoid the head injuries. So that was the Mine

1026
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: was like, I don't like hitting people, but I like

1027
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: score and touchdowns. I can say all my head injuries

1028
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: in life have come from teaching special ed. I think

1029
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: my dad might back that up to yeah, no, it's

1030
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: you'll get hit in the head a lot, depending on

1031
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: what type of teaching football coach, especially a teacher, I'm

1032
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: sure he's like not gonna hit way more, especially now. Uh. Yeah.

1033
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: Like I said, Texas passed the law and making this

1034
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: a crime after the mcmoury's case, but Dr mcmoury's behavior

1035
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: remains legal in forty seven American states. And I'm going

1036
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: to quote again from today. Dr Jody Madeira, a law

1037
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: professor at Indiana University, is following more than twenty cases

1038
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: in the United States and abroad. They have occurred in

1039
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: a dozen states, including Connecticut, Vermont, Idaho, Utah, and Nevada,

1040
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: she said, as well as in England, South Africa, Germany

1041
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: and the Netherlands. So many doctors use their own sperm

1042
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: to impregnate women, so many fertility doctors. It's fucking crazy

1043
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: how common it is. Border It is an epidemic. It's

1044
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 1: absolutely an epidemic. Like I didn't include every case, just

1045
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:36,479
Speaker 1: the most obvious ones. I only had so much research time.

1046
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:41,479
Speaker 1: I can't So is it like a funny thing they're doing,

1047
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: like where they're like, I said, let's get through the

1048
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: rest of this and then we'll talk about what the

1049
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: funk we think is going You keep saying that, and

1050
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: then yeah, there's just a lot more fucking deeper than

1051
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: I could ever believe. So I'm like, yeah, we're almost glad,

1052
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 1: We're almost there. And then you're like, no, there's forty

1053
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: eight more dudes that are doing this. Yes, I have

1054
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: a hundred and twelve pages more to go through. That

1055
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 1: case in the Netherlands was probably fertility specialist Yawn Carbot.

1056
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 1: He was confirmed by DNA testing to a fathered fifty

1057
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 1: six children with women who distinctly did not intend to

1058
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: have his sperm inside of them. Carbot's clinic closed in

1059
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, but much of this activity had happened

1060
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: decades prior, and at least one local attorney doubted whether

1061
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: or not he'd ever done anything legally improper. Quote thirty

1062
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: years ago, people looked at things in very different ways.

1063
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: Carbot could have been an anonymous donor. We don't know

1064
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: that there was no registration system at the time. As

1065
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 1: a good lawyer right there, that is a good law

1066
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: good lawyer, solid lawyer. Yeah, I'm impressed, but I invited

1067
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 1: my barbecue. Yeah. Now, it's worth noting that there are

1068
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: reasons some doctors may have used their own sperm outside

1069
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: of narcissism or just some bizarre cank or I should say,

1070
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: in addition to narcissism, up until the late nineteen eighties,

1071
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: frozen sperm technology was still quite primitive. Many doctors might

1072
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 1: have justified using their own fresh sperm because they knew

1073
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: it would work better than the alternative. No one back

1074
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen saw home DNA testing kits is very likely,

1075
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: and I think this might explain Dr Barwin's reputation as

1076
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: the baby god. Other fertility doctors in Ottawa probably didn't

1077
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: use their own semen in patients, so they relied on

1078
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: the frozen stuff and had lower success rates. Dr Barwin's

1079
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 1: marked success was a direct consequence of the fact that

1080
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: he was fine lying to people about whose semen they

1081
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 1: were getting. And this Billy Wayne Davis brings me to

1082
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: the story of Berthold Wisner and his wife Mary Barton.

1083
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: They were very first for the end, and I don't

1084
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: like it some of the in there. I'm just gonna

1085
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: this is definitely part of a horror movie. They were

1086
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 1: among the earliest pioneers in the fertility field. They started

1087
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: a clinic in London in the nineteen forties and over

1088
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: the years they took part in more than fifteen hundred

1089
01:02:55,440 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 1: successful conceptions. Now, at the time they told it's that

1090
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: all of their sperm donors came from a small collection

1091
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: of their friends who were all geniuses and accomplished academics.

1092
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: Come in this house, Well fuck, they're all geniuses. Now

1093
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: you want to guess how many of these babies were his?

1094
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 1: Every one of them? No, no, it's not that bad.

1095
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: Roughly one third of them. So about six hundred children

1096
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 1: are estimated to have been conceived to be a Wisener sperm. Now,

1097
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: most of these children will probably never learn the truth

1098
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: since it took so many decades for anyone to realize

1099
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: what was going on. It's actually impossible for anyone to

1100
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: know how many children Wisener had or how many of

1101
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 1: those kids may have wind up dating or marrying each

1102
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: other and forgot about that part. That's so funny, Yeah,

1103
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: that this this might explain a little bit of white

1104
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: English people are so weird. Um, but you know, no

1105
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: way to know it's well, there's a it's a cocktail

1106
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: over there now. In two thousand eighteen, a Queen's couple

1107
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: finally succeeded in conceiving a child through in vitro fertilization,

1108
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: but when the mother gave birth in March of this year,

1109
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 1: she and her husband were shocked to find out that,

1110
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: unlike them, their children were not Asian. According to Today

1111
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 1: dot Com, the couple reported they had spent over a

1112
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars at c H, a fertility center in California,

1113
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 1: for attempts at IVF. According to a lawsuit filed last week,

1114
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: red flags began to pop up throughout the pregnancy. A

1115
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 1: sonogram showed the women was carrying twin boys. If the

1116
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: couple had not used male embryos. When they contacted the

1117
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: clinic about it, doctor simply told them the sonogram was incorrect.

1118
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 1: Following the birth, the couple was shocked to see that

1119
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: the babies they were told were formed using both of

1120
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: their genetic material did not appear to be. The lawsuits

1121
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 1: stated the babies were not related to either of their

1122
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: parents or to each other. The couple relinquished custody of

1123
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 1: the children. Now it is unclear who the parents were

1124
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: in that case. We have no idea. It is entirely

1125
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: possible that this case is not at all the result

1126
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 1: of a shady doctor wanting to spread his seed or

1127
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 1: anything like that. It may have just been a funk

1128
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 1: up due to the fact that in two thousand nineteen,

1129
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: nobody really cares about making sure this piece of the

1130
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: medical field of gids by the same rules that other

1131
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: parts of medicine that don't involve semen do. Dove Fox,

1132
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: a professor of law at the University of San Diego,

1133
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: provided this explanation to today. Fertility centers, and there are

1134
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 1: almost five hundred of them in the United States today,

1135
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: operate free of almost any regulation at all. Fox told

1136
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: NBC News there's no federal law, no state law, no

1137
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 1: enforced professional guideline that enforces requirements that licenses these facilities

1138
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: in the way that they label, or diagnose or handle sperm,

1139
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: eggs and embryos that result in the creation of people.

1140
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 1: In fertility medicine, it's very different than any other field,

1141
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: where we regulate very closely what's called never events. These

1142
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: are major avoidable mistakes, things like blood transfusion on the

1143
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: wrong person, or a surgery on the wrong body part

1144
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: or the wrong patient. There we require mandatory disclosure and

1145
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 1: we figure out what went wrong and how to fix it.

1146
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 1: We have nothing like that for what you might call

1147
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: never events in reproductive technology. So that's neat. I I mean,

1148
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: I might stop doing comedy and just get into Dr

1149
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: Billy's bag making bungle to Billy's baby clinic. They come

1150
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 1: from a California sperm bank. It sure does. He only

1151
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: say he can say five or six couples the day

1152
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 1: until he's about forty five, and then he's going to retire.

1153
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 1: I think, oh Jesus, so yeah. My thinking on why

1154
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: these guys do it. I think you've got to mix

1155
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: the two kinds of doctors and fertility medicine. You have

1156
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: good doctors who choose to go into fertility medicine and

1157
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: do their best, and sometimes they succeed, and sometimes they

1158
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 1: fail because using frozen sperm is harder than using fresh

1159
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 1: sperm and it's a difficult field. And then you have

1160
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: guys like Dr Barwin, who are not actually great doctors,

1161
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 1: but who, because they're narcissists, want to be seen as

1162
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: the best, and who realized at a certain point, I

1163
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 1: can be the best fertility doctor if I just use

1164
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: my own fresh come all the time. Yeah. No, that

1165
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 1: I mean that's a good business decision to more than

1166
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 1: any Yeah, it's a great That's why he became the

1167
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,439
Speaker 1: baby god. Yeah. I think it's the same with most

1168
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,919
Speaker 1: of these guys. They just wanted to be seen as great.

1169
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 1: I don't like. I don't think it's a kink for

1170
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: most of them. I don't think it's about wanting to

1171
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: spread their seed. I think they want to be seen

1172
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: as great doctors. And literally, the easiest way in medicine

1173
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: to be seen as a great doctor without actually being

1174
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: good at medicine is to be a cheating fertility doctor.

1175
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: Until recently, Yeah, well especially the marathon guy, like cheating

1176
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: was not that was like he was all about results.

1177
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: He wanted to seem like the best. Yeah, yeah he did. Yeah,

1178
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:38,439
Speaker 1: he had a I would say probably insecurity, I would say,

1179
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: for sure, which is a weird thing to lead to

1180
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 1: wanting more children. And I don't think he cared about that.

1181
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: You just think it was well And I guess you're right,

1182
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: because it's not even that personal. When you're in the

1183
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 1: lab doing the thing. It's probably you're just thinking about like, oh,

1184
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: this will make these people happy, and then I'll get

1185
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:05,439
Speaker 1: more money and then they'll bring more people. Yeah. Yeah,

1186
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: I suspect it's something like that, or they're I mean,

1187
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: they're all smart enough to realize, like maybe they're all

1188
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 1: the hanging out and he's like, yeah, they all. I

1189
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 1: mean it's tough because you freeze them. Sometimes they live.

1190
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 1: Most of the time they don't. So it would be

1191
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: like one smartass doctor, you know, they're playing golf and

1192
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: he's like, be easier, butters jacked off himself into it,

1193
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: and then the other guy was like, okay, huh easier.

1194
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 1: He says that as he's like surreptitiously picking up his

1195
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 1: ball and dropping it ten feet forward, we're just like

1196
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 1: kicking it with his foot. He was like kicking it

1197
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 1: with his foot. Jesus Christ, He's like, look thirty six again. Yeah.

1198
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: I had an interesting journey writing this episode because I

1199
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: like started looking at Dr Barwin and I did a

1200
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: few hours of research, and then I realized that his

1201
01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,799
Speaker 1: story on its own just wasn't enough for a full episode,

1202
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: and I was starting to be like, oh God, damn it,

1203
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 1: I gotta start over again. And then, like by accident googling,

1204
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 1: I just came up across another doctor like that, and

1205
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 1: another and another and another. It's like, oh my god,

1206
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 1: this is like a whole thing. Yeah, no, I had Well,

1207
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 1: let's the thing, Like you hear those stories like every

1208
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 1: now and then it's like, hey, some fertility doctor did

1209
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: the thing, and then it wasn't until you're like then

1210
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: there was another and then oh they've never put those

1211
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 1: stories together well, and nobody's there's not a single like,

1212
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 1: nobody's keeping track of this ship. Nobody ever thought it

1213
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 1: would be a problem. So there's just no there's no

1214
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: infrastructure set up to make sure it's a fucking it

1215
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. It is a weird sca because for a

1216
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: long time there were no victims. Quote unquote yeah, because

1217
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: everyone got what they wanted seemingly until the baby grew up.

1218
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, oh come mom, Harry and you

1219
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: guys aren't. Yeah, and then and then they walked down

1220
01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 1: this c V as twenty d n a oh, and

1221
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: then it all fell apart. That's fascinate because I don't

1222
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:08,800
Speaker 1: think they thought. I think some of them knew, but

1223
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 1: I think some of them thought was like, this is

1224
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:12,680
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like everyone kind of

1225
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: guess what they want. Yeah, but yep, they didn't. They

1226
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 1: did not. Billy told you motherfucker's karma. So Billy, how

1227
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: you feel today? You know? We asked a question at

1228
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 1: the beginning of this as to whether or not these

1229
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 1: were fake doctors, and they're definitely had m d s.

1230
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: But I do still feel the same thing as going

1231
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 1: on in their heads as is going on with the

1232
01:10:41,479 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: other fake doctors we talked about where it's an ego thing.

1233
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 1: They want to be seen as great doctors, and in

1234
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: these guys this case, they did get m d S,

1235
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 1: so they went further, but they were still fundamentally the

1236
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: same kind of grifter, I believe, Yeah, if not more dangerous, Yeah,

1237
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 1: because they're more willing to put on the airs in

1238
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 1: a way that the other ones weren't. Yeah, and I think,

1239
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 1: like the untold story with like Dr Barwin, like it

1240
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:13,560
Speaker 1: might be that all of the baby mishaps in his

1241
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: fertility clinic are the least evil he resulted in his

1242
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,799
Speaker 1: career because he was working as a gynecologist for years

1243
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: while clearly unqualified to do it. Like who knows how

1244
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 1: much cervical cancer he missed or like whatever, like other

1245
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 1: funk ups, you can funk up as a gynecologist who

1246
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 1: can't pass the test to be a gynecologist. Like, I'm

1247
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: sure there's more darkness to Barwin's story in particular. I

1248
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: think there's probably more darkness to every one of them, because,

1249
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 1: like you said, like if they're willing to do this

1250
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 1: shortcut for this, they're not looking at everything they showed

1251
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 1: like a real doctor. Yeah. It's like there's dermatologist in

1252
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 1: l a that are just you go and you're like,

1253
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 1: you're not a real dermatologist. You're just injecting shipped into

1254
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 1: rich ladies faces. Oh yeah, you're just shooting stuff into

1255
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 1: people's lips. Yeah, And then they're like uh huh, yeah,

1256
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 1: do you want you want your weight card too, and

1257
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 1: you're like, I gotta get out of here, but yes,

1258
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: I do want how much is it less than fifty dollars?

1259
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 1: Because the other fake doctor I go to chach I

1260
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 1: just fifty dollars. Doctor wrinkled Webcoat says it's uh see,

1261
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: I'm so toward because I love the whimsy of the

1262
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: I wish the fake medical marijuana industry had never changed. Well,

1263
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 1: there was a it's a real industry. Yeah, that started

1264
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: for like really helping people, and then Southern California really

1265
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:43,559
Speaker 1: took it and we're like, you know, okay, yeah, yeah,

1266
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 1: it's a medicine. Yeah, and then yeah and then yeah,

1267
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 1: that's what happened because it started in San Francisco where

1268
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 1: they really gave a ship about gay people that were dying.

1269
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. And there's one of my

1270
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 1: very favorite marijuana clinics in San Francisco. Um is like

1271
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:03,759
Speaker 1: name after this guy who was uh like the partner

1272
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 1: of the guy who opened it, and the dude like

1273
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 1: the shop is I don't I don't remember the name

1274
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: of the shop. I don't think it's that, but like

1275
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 1: the dude, the dude who opened the shop, his partner

1276
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 1: died of aids, and like he opened the shop because

1277
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:18,600
Speaker 1: he had these dark memories of having to like go

1278
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 1: buy weed from shady drug dealers to like try and

1279
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:24,680
Speaker 1: like help his lovers like appetite and like fight his

1280
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 1: pain and stuff. And he's like, it was just so

1281
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 1: demeaning to have to do that for you're a sick person.

1282
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 1: You love that. I don't want anyone to go through that.

1283
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 1: So yes, I don't mean to say that, like medical

1284
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:37,040
Speaker 1: marijuana isn't a thing. I just I love how bullshit

1285
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:41,480
Speaker 1: Southern California's medical marijuana industry got. It was beautiful, so beautiful.

1286
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 1: You're just like I can see the ocean when I

1287
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 1: got my card. That's hilarious. I can see the ocean.

1288
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 1: The doctor has a framed picture of the Mona Lisa

1289
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 1: smoking a blunt on his wall, and it is nailed

1290
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 1: to the wall next to all the symptoms of what

1291
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: you can say to get it. That's my I was like,

1292
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:07,640
Speaker 1: which one do you got? And I was like, it

1293
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 1: was great, but I do. I mean, there's a lot

1294
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 1: of my thought is like I'm about to get a vasectomy.

1295
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 1: Um so now I'm way more a little worried than

1296
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 1: I was because oh yeah, because you just think like, oh,

1297
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 1: I gotta find the right doctor now, because you can't

1298
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 1: just be like, yeah, you gotta be careful about that ship.

1299
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 1: Uh damn it. It was just a little more homework

1300
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 1: than I was gonna do. I was just gonna go like,

1301
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: who who did that? Now I have to look into

1302
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:38,759
Speaker 1: it and be like, hey, you don't have a history

1303
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:43,840
Speaker 1: of fucking this up, do you? Yeah? I mean yeah,

1304
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 1: it's not a bad idea to look into with any doctor.

1305
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:48,600
Speaker 1: And it's probably unfair that I'm going to make the

1306
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 1: title of this be all fertility doctors are bastards, But

1307
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 1: that is going to be the title of this episode.

1308
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,840
Speaker 1: And if you want me to revise my opinion of

1309
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 1: your industry, for hility doctors, lobby for there to be

1310
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: any kind of regulation of the industry whatsoever, any kind

1311
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 1: just a law saying you can't trick women into using

1312
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:15,839
Speaker 1: your sperm, or you have to go give your sperm

1313
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 1: at a sperm bank. You can't just skip that step

1314
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:22,200
Speaker 1: and do it at the thing. Yes, if you are

1315
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 1: a doctor, fertility doctor, and you give your sperm to

1316
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 1: a sperm bank and then somebody uses it, fine, yes, yes,

1317
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:33,040
Speaker 1: of course, of course, yes, you need that one step.

1318
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 1: I think that's an important step that they all that

1319
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 1: the people seem to have a problem with I I'm

1320
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: really wondering what it was like to work with Barwin,

1321
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 1: because I'm betting at least a few of his employees

1322
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:50,680
Speaker 1: had stories of like, oh yeah, every time after an insemination,

1323
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 1: he just goes and takes a nap. He gets real quiet,

1324
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk to anybody, usually smoke a cigarette.

1325
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:01,879
Speaker 1: He had a process and it minded me of my husband.

1326
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 1: Uh why is he breathing heavy? So Billy, Yes, you

1327
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,880
Speaker 1: want to plug your plug doubles. Uh sure, bwd tour

1328
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 1: dot com. Um, I'm in dates, uh more and more,

1329
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 1: and then you can get my record Billy Wayne Davis

1330
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 1: live at Thurdmin Records. Just you can download it or

1331
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 1: you can whatever. It's just you know, google Billy Wayne

1332
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:31,680
Speaker 1: Davis and all that ship comes up. How about that?

1333
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:34,759
Speaker 1: Google Billy Wayne Dave. I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram.

1334
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 1: I think I'm on Facebook, but I don't really care

1335
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: about that. Just google him. He's not like me. He

1336
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,560
Speaker 1: doesn't share a name with the guy who produced Godfather.

1337
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 1: That's awesome, though, is it? Yes? That dude is as

1338
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 1: far as those dudes go pretty rad. That's a ramy

1339
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 1: dude to share a name with. I will tell you

1340
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: there was a sense of pride I got when I

1341
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 1: finally started showing up on the first page of Google

1342
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 1: results with him. That took a lot of time in

1343
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:03,840
Speaker 1: my career. Yeah. He just really put in the put

1344
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:06,680
Speaker 1: in the work. Yeah. I mean I would say this

1345
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,240
Speaker 1: like the way I've been on the Paramount a lot

1346
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 1: a couple of times just to do Hollywood meetings. Um there,

1347
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 1: it's the dumbest thing you there. They just want to say, hey,

1348
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:17,760
Speaker 1: who are you? And you're like you don't care, and

1349
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:19,519
Speaker 1: they're like, no, we don't get out of here. But

1350
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:23,840
Speaker 1: you walk by Robert Evans office and you know, people

1351
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,080
Speaker 1: have like a sign there their little company. His is

1352
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,720
Speaker 1: this cool steel sign, but it's his signature, and I

1353
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,519
Speaker 1: was like, that's awesome. It really like it was like

1354
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 1: that's a fucking g move. It really was. I would

1355
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 1: just walk back and I was like, tip of the

1356
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 1: hat that guy, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's uh, you know,

1357
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 1: he's uh, he's the guy that he is. And he's

1358
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: also a hundred years old and he still has in

1359
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 1: office at the Paramount lot that's crazy too. I am

1360
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 1: going to be now that he's stepping down, I am

1361
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 1: going to apply for a job at Paramount because they

1362
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,719
Speaker 1: are short of Robert Evans. You're like, hey, you already

1363
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 1: have that office. I guess it's got my name. Yeah.

1364
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: My my my job will be consuming my body weight

1365
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 1: in cocaine and green lighting movies. Um. Kind of does sound. Yeah,

1366
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:13,559
Speaker 1: it sounds like the best job ever. I um yeah.

1367
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,759
Speaker 1: And he's like, I've impregnated more ladies than those doctors.

1368
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 1: That's true, and every one of them knew exactly what

1369
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,760
Speaker 1: they were getting into. Yeah, there was no lab involved. No,

1370
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 1: the kids stayed in that picture. Yeah. Uh. Special edited

1371
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:39,840
Speaker 1: that documentary for a full circle thing. That's cool. Good documentary.

1372
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:44,200
Speaker 1: Speaking of good documentaries, you can find this podcast on

1373
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 1: the internet at behind the Bastards dot com um, where

1374
01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:49,519
Speaker 1: we'll have the sources for this episode. If you need

1375
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 1: to prove to somebody else that fertility doctors are an

1376
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 1: untrustworthy lot. Uh, you can find me on Twitter at

1377
01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 1: I right, Okay. You can find this podcast on Twitter

1378
01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 1: and Instagram and at that estards pod. Um. You can

1379
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 1: find buy t shirts at t public dot com. Behind

1380
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: the Bastards um. And you cannot find Sophie my producer

1381
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 1: on the internet, um because she lives in a cave

1382
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:16,599
Speaker 1: and only comes down once every century when her unique

1383
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,560
Speaker 1: talents are needed to save the world from the devastation

1384
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 1: of the Poison Room. Pretty noble, mhm. So if you

1385
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 1: got a line you wanna you want to end us on. Now,

1386
01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 1: that's a good line, A solid, solid Sophie work. All right, guys.

1387
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:35,400
Speaker 1: Episode done.