1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Quality dymists. But Joseph's gotten more other than forensic pathologists. 2 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: The very first people that I came in contact with 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: and got to know really well in the world of 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: forensic scientists or actually forensic odentologist. I actually met forensic 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: odentologist before I ever met my first forensic anthropologist. And 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: I've always viewed myself as one of these people that 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: is a frustrated forensic anthropologist, because it's something I would 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: have loved to have done but never had the time, 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: you know, to go down that career path. I just 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: like digging in the dirt and those sorts of things, 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: and you know, working puzzles from that perspective. But forensic 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: identologists were interesting people, and I had a couple of 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: them that were a big influence in my career because 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: it gave me a perspective on forensic science in general 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: and specifically death investigation from a different side of the house. 16 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: You know, you always hear it from the physician side 17 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: in death investigation, but forensic codeontologists have a different view. 18 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: And today on bodybacks, I was really hoping that we 19 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: could explore this world and talk a little bit about 20 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: form function and maybe some famous and also infamous forensic 21 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: codeontologists that are out there. It's gonna be a good conversation. 22 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks. Have you 23 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: ever heard a more odd word than odentology, Dave. I mean, 24 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: when you first hear that, you think, first off, what 25 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: is it? And and you know, where does it come from? 26 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: Where does it originate? Because some people out there will 27 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: use interchangeably. They will say forensic odentology and forensic dentistry, 28 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: and I think dentistry actually predates the word odentology. Odentology 29 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: is an English word that first popped up in like 30 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds. Do you know what the big 31 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: difference is, no idea. Dentistry is kind of the treatment 32 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: of teeth examination that you know, measuring health and doing 33 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: extractions and fillings and all of the stuff that dental 34 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: folks do. Odentology, interestingly enough, deals more towards the function 35 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: of the teeth, how they work. You know how they work, 36 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: and most people don't don't think about most people don't 37 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: even think about chewing because it's one of these things 38 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: that you've done it your entire life. You don't think 39 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: about what's involved in it as a matter of fact, 40 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: let me try an experiment real quick. Everybody that's listening 41 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: to me, you, including Dave. I want you to take 42 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: the tip of your tongue and run it across the 43 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: surface of your teeth, both upper and lower and just 44 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: by using the tip of your tongue, can you tell 45 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: me what is your dependent side of your mouth that 46 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: you chew on? Yeah? 47 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: Can you? 48 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: Uh huh oh yeah, okay. 49 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: Freak show. But yeah, I mean I paid a lot 50 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: of money for these teeth. Yeah, I know exactly where 51 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: I chew. 52 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: Where do you chew? What's the right side? 53 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: Right? 54 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: Yeah? Me too? And so and if you notice if 55 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: you notice teeth when you look at them, I mean 56 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: probably most famously people when they see teeth and they 57 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,279 Speaker 1: think things like bite marks. We think about our canines. 58 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: My kids used to call them their vampire teeth. You know, 59 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: there's two pointy they have a single cusp that kind 60 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: of sticks down well for humans with these teeth, they 61 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: do serve a each tooth. Each tooth grouping serves a 62 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: specific form and function. So you're learning, like if you 63 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: can tell what side of your where pattern is, that's 64 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: going to be specific to maybe a life lived there's 65 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: evidence if you eat to unrefined grains, your teeth will 66 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: be worn down in a particular manner. There's a manifestation 67 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: that comes about in Native Americans and Asian populations. It's 68 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: called dental shoveling, which the backside of the teeth literally 69 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: kind of shovel out because they're eating things like unrefined rice, corn, 70 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: those sorts of things, and so it grinds it teeth 71 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: down over a period of time. You can also get 72 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: a you know, you can look at teeth until you know, 73 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: see people that maybe have not had fluorinated water. You know, 74 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: all these things that are out there that so much 75 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: you can learn about the teeth. You can check trauma 76 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: with teeth. You know, how many teeth have you had 77 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: chipped over the course of your life and have not 78 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: been repaired? How many teeth? And my wife hates me, Well, 79 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: she doesn't hate me, she cannot stand the fact that 80 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: my first off, my teeth are very crooked. People always say, 81 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: why don't you smile on your photographs? Well, my left 82 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: upper lateral incisor is recessed back in my mouth and 83 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: it actually looks like I got a hole in my teeth, 84 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: and I don't. I never got braces. And so my wife, however, 85 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: is always tending to her teeth and she's got very 86 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: soft teeth and that's unique to her, and they wear 87 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. They've literally people hate me for this. 88 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: I've literally never had a cavity in my life. 89 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: Wow, good for you. 90 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: Never And I don't know what that's like. I've had 91 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: tooth pain. However, Kim my wife, she's had crowned, she's 92 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:18,239 Speaker 1: had feelings, you know, and she flasses religiously, brushes several times, 93 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: and she'll look at me and say, so, what did 94 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: the dentists say, I don't have any cavities? 95 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: Chew more ice. 96 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of stuff could be extrapolated from that, 97 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: by the way, but we're not gonna get road. 98 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: As soon as I saw, you know, forensic odentology, that's 99 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 2: what we're going to talk about. I thought Ted Bundy 100 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: and the Kyomega attack where they used his the impression 101 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 2: of his bite mark Uh at trial, and I wondered, 102 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: out loud, how exacting is that science? Because I've heard toothing. 103 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: I've heard, oh, yeah, everybody has a unique bite. Actually 104 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: that's not true, right. 105 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: No, it's not. And well, let me tell you why 106 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: it is kind of unique. First off, the Bundy trial 107 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: is probably the most famous out of all of bike 108 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: mark cases. There's that image that's out there of this 109 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: poor young woman that was bitten on her buttock, and 110 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: you can see that, and I think that that was 111 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: put forward in that trial specifically, and they did a 112 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: good job of explaining it. And remember they had to 113 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: force him to give a dental impression where. 114 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: He gets something to try to mess with his teeth too. 115 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: I'm trying to be I was. 116 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was, because he's one of 117 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: those people that people talk about so much that I'm 118 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: bad in my life to do the opposit. I go 119 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: the opposite of the crowd most of the time, and 120 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: so I have I've not studied Bundy as much as 121 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people, or should I say, I know 122 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: people that all they want to talk about is Bundy, 123 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: and you know, there's been so many cases since him, 124 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean, he's kind of a touchstone for 125 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons and forensics, but bite mark in particular. 126 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: And here's you know what's really odd, though, Joe, with Bundy, 127 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: you had so many Okay, the Kyomega where we had 128 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: the bite mark thing. But in his other killings, whether 129 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: it was in Utah or Washington, Oregon, there were different 130 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: things at each one of them. He did different things 131 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: along the way to people. I mean, he did different killings, 132 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: and it's like that to me. I don't want to 133 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: say it's fascinating because the guy is the most evil person. 134 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: I think that every walks at the pace of the earth, 135 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: or at least up in the top five. But you know, 136 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: it's like each one of his different groupings of cases 137 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 2: brings about a whole new set or a different set 138 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: of ideas to talk about of a killer. But you know, 139 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: like you're talking about, you don't follow along with that. 140 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: You know. The one thing that with the you and 141 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 2: I both have done so much on Coburger, I was 142 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: kind of hit with Coburger and Bundy, you know, the 143 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: early late night, early morning attack in a house in 144 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: a confined area where there are living you know, people 145 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: that actually saw you know, and and so those comparisons, 146 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 2: and I wondered, based on Coberger's background, did he study this? 147 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: Did did he study forensic odontology? 148 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: He would have he I can't say what he studied. 149 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: Lord only knows, you know. Yeah, Oh my god, don't 150 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: bring that up again, please, I swear I got to 151 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: tell you the further down the road that we go 152 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: with the scene looking at him, I'm more inclined to 153 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: Danny Rowling, you know, the the Gainsville Ripper because and 154 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: I think a lot of that had to do with 155 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: the kpar knife and how it was utilized, and that 156 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: it was a college campus and it was off campus 157 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: housing and that was It's just that you didn't have 158 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: a one night event where you had people kluster and 159 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: he had multiple people Danny Danny Rowling in very spots 160 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: and I had kind of a weird kind of involvement. 161 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: Was rolling in one sense that he's from Louisiana. We 162 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: had a series of serial killings that were going on 163 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: in South Louisiana and I was on a task force 164 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: and he had, if I remember correctly, he had perpetrated 165 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: something up in North Louisiana. It seems like it was Freeport. 166 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: I can't remember. And the task force was asked to 167 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: look at, if any when the ripper thing happened in Gainesville. 168 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: Back then, we were asked, are there any of these 169 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: cases that you're currently working that kind of pair up 170 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: with what happened in Gainsvielle, because I think Gainsville was 171 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: eighty nine if I'm not mistaken, and we couldn't find 172 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: I mean just the fact that, well, let's let's face it, 173 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, he used a knife to dismember at least 174 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: one person that I remember off the top of my head. 175 00:10:54,600 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: We didn't have that in that series. But now with Bundy, 176 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: Bundy is he's a straight up sadist and he actually 177 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: he actually had a what's called a sexual uh paraphilia, 178 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: which is a dex alexia. I think it's let me 179 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: check the pronounce the pronunciation again. I think that's uh. 180 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,599 Speaker 2: And while you get those who are listening and you 181 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: mentioned Danny Rolling in the Gainesville Ripper, I encourage you, friends, 182 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 2: if you've been following Coburger, go look into Danny Rolling. 183 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: That's where the k bar knife came into play, and 184 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 2: a few other things that are very reminiscent of the 185 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: two cases. Plus we found out recently in the last 186 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: week that Coburger actually had downloaded a PDF about Danny 187 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: Rolling to his phone. 188 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: And there are similarities I think between and everybody will say, well, 189 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: Bundy was really small Danny Roland was no idiot. I mean, 190 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: I guess it all depends on how you define idiot. 191 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: But but he he had a there was a certain 192 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: template with him. And I'm still not convinced that that 193 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: Danny Rowland hadn't been at what he was doing for longer. 194 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: You know, some people think, but seems odd that. 195 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: We have a killer that all of a sudden strikes 196 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: yeah and and does such horror. 197 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: And that's a similarity. That's more similar to Rolling than Bundy. 198 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: Bundy when he showed up at uh FSU in Tallahassee 199 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: with Coyo House, he was at the end at that point, 200 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: he was on the run. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Rolling. It 201 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: was seemed just like Coburger burst on the scene in 202 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: a dramatic way, which is, you know, quite fascinating to consider. 203 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: I've thought about several people along the way, and wow, 204 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: I'm really chasing rabbits here. But you know, I've considered everybody, 205 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: including including Ted Kazinski, the unibomber uh And a lot 206 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 1: of that is based on those images that he took 207 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: of himself with the hoodie, because he looked except for 208 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: the sunglasses, he actually looked like that composite and of course, uh, 209 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: of course, you know Ted Kazinsky was brilliant PhD in mathematics, 210 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: and this guy esteemed to be brilliant, right, and also 211 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: have a PhD. So I don't know. But when it 212 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: comes down to biting people like Bundy did, there is 213 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: a satos actually a sadistic practice of a sexual paraphilia 214 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: that's associated with this type of behavior that's actually called 215 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: a dexelegnia. And I know they've got a name for 216 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 1: everything at the bottom. I know, there's no basement in 217 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: the house of the private so in this practice, and 218 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: it's very as you can imagine, it's very intimate. Now, 219 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: there are some people that are you know, good luck 220 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: with all that. There are a lot of people that 221 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: are into biting one another. Okay, like and you know, 222 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: kind of teasing that sort of thing. We're not going 223 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: to go down that road right now. This is not 224 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: that kind of show. But there is a group of 225 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: these people that are sadists that actually bite, and I 226 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: mean bite hard because they are directly involved in inflicting 227 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: pain on another individual, tortures pain. If anybody's ever been 228 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: bitten by like a dog, and you can imagine that 229 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: dog not letting go of you. And I'm sure that 230 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: many of you that are hearing this right now have 231 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: been have been attacked, at least in a limited sense 232 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: by dog. There's nothing quite as painful, particularly if you 233 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: can't get a dog off of you. Well, imagine a 234 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: human doing this and he's got you pinned down, he's 235 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: twice your size and he's biting down on you. Well, 236 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: it's through this that we see kind of the early 237 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: genesis of forensic idontology in the practice. And the I 238 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: think the reason it got so much, it was so 239 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: validated back during its day is it exploded with Ted 240 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: Bundy because it was this new fascinating thing that they 241 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: had and it's like, guys, we caught him, you know, 242 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. You know, We've got him, you know, 243 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: and they tied it back through the teeth, you know. 244 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: And now it's quite quite interesting now bide Mark's not 245 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: recognized in the vast majority of courts anymore. It's considered, 246 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of been invalidated. It's some people. It's not 247 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: me using the term. Actually Obama's best practices in forensic 248 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: science studies. I think that was back from twelve I 249 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: think actually referred to it as a pseudoscience, and which 250 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: is And listen, I've you know, some of the people 251 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: that I've come in contact with that are forensic codeontologists. 252 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: I hold in very high esteem Ronnie Carr in particular, 253 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: as a guy that took me under his wing when 254 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: I was a young investigator, actually allowed me to come 255 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: to the dental school and audit a dental class that 256 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: he was teaching as an elective in forensic codeontology. But 257 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: odentology is just not about bitemarks. The other utility that 258 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: they have, and probably that's more practical, are doing postmortem 259 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: dental examinations, which are fascinating in and of themselves, because 260 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: as we know skin, skin can be damaged, it can 261 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: be burned, it can rot, it can fade away. Bones 262 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: can be snapped in half and hauled away. But teeth, 263 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: we've still got teeth that were found in the heads 264 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: of mummies three thousand years ago. They last a long 265 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: long time. Consider your teeth, just for a moment again, 266 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: I've already asked you to try to determine what side 267 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: of your mouth you chew on the most, and everything 268 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: that happens with your teeth is unique to you. All right, 269 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: Mommy and Daddy could have paid for braces, but still 270 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: those teeth will be unique to you. The fascinating thing 271 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: about teeth and what makes them have a utility for 272 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: human identification, particularly not so much bite mark, because we'll 273 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: get into that in a second, but just the basic 274 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: utility of teeth as a means to identify people. Think 275 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: about think about it like this. Every tooth has at 276 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: least five visible surfaces, well partially visible. If you think 277 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: about the top. Okay, you think about the outer side 278 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: that you can see, the inner side that you can 279 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: see if you look in the mirror, and then you've 280 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: got two other sides that are up against adjoining teeth, 281 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: all right, community not really communicating, but they're sitting there, 282 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: all right. So all of those planes for every tooth 283 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: that you have that has these sides, for every way 284 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: that it rotates, like it can rotate two degrees, three degrees, 285 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: four degrees, and dentist considering this while they're examining your teeth, 286 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: that makes that individual tooth unique to you. You take 287 00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: that and multiply that by thirty two teeth, and that 288 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: makes you very unique. It still makes you unique if 289 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: you're missing your wisdom teeth, because that means you're in 290 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: the population that doesn't have wisdom teeth. So if I'm 291 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: trying to get a body identified, if you're missing your 292 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: wisdom teeth and we know that they were probably extracted 293 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: as opposed to falling out as a result of decomposition, 294 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: you're into a separate pile and getting bodies identified, which 295 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: teeth was were the main way that we did that 296 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: on really complex cases for years and years. Now you 297 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: have DNA and teeth still play a part in DNA, 298 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: but you would do these examinations on teeth and they 299 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: would always kind of point the way. Of course, you 300 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: would have to have a suspected list of people that 301 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: a suspected list of people that you could get their 302 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: anti mortem dental records and compared to. Let me tell 303 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: you about a nightmare case that in my old office 304 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: that occurred in nineteen eighty two. Anybody feel free to 305 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: look this up in Kenner, Louisiana. I think it was 306 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty two. There was a pan Am crash 307 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: and when the crash took place, the plane took off 308 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: going from with Lake ponta train at the rear of 309 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: the plane, so you're traveling from it's going from north 310 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: to south, so north south runway. Thing takes off and Dave, 311 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't get probably any higher than maybe six seven 312 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: hundred feet off the ground, and it knows dives. It 313 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: knows dives were a full I mean they were heading 314 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: to Vegas nose dives. It goes across the highway and 315 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: into a neighborhood and just obliterates the neighborhood and anybody 316 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: that was there. It's like at four o'clock in the afternoon. 317 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: I've got colleagues that showed up, Dave, and they saw 318 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: things like one of the most shocking things they saw 319 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: while they were there was actually a woman's torso cut 320 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: in half and was hanging from a live oak tree 321 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: by her pantyhose, and the top half of her was 322 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: completely gone. There was cash laying everywhere all over the place, 323 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 1: and just to show you how scummy some human beings 324 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: can be. Before the police arrived on scene, there were 325 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: allegedly allegedly civilians that had walked in there and they 326 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: were picking up cash. The reason there was cash is 327 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: this is before the days of going to a slot 328 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: machine in Vegas and taking a digital card and sticking 329 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: it in. You had to show up with cash and 330 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: handbag and you could. I still remember the sound of 331 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: the coins falling, you know, when they would follow somebody 332 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,479 Speaker 1: who had a jackpot. So people would literally travel with 333 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: huge amounts of cash. I'm getting to the point. I'm 334 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: going to tell you why this is so complex. When 335 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: they crashed into the ground, you had bodies that were burning, 336 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: you had homes that were burning. There were people that 337 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: were just living their life on the ground that had died. 338 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: There was one child I remember the old investigators talking 339 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: about that was in her sandbox and the sand she 340 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: like incinerated right there. There were plastic toys that had 341 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: melted and they were like in a multicolored blob and Dave, 342 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: part of the sand had turned to glass. That's how 343 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: hot it got. Now I can't validate that personally. That's 344 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: word of mouth that came to me and that you 345 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: can still drive through there even to this day in 346 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: that part of Kenner loose in it and you can 347 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: still see where the plane. There's new homes there, but 348 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: you can see what's newer and what's older, and it's 349 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: this horrific event. So back to why it was so difficult. 350 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: A goodly number of these people that were on the plane, 351 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: they had a lot of Indian nationals that were from 352 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: India and they were trying to Yet back then, they 353 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: were trying to get dental records. You realize how hard 354 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: it is to get dental records from India. I mean, 355 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: it's a bloody nightmare. So you have people that are 356 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: there that have very specific dental presentations and you don't 357 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: have anything to compare it to. Now solid as the 358 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: science is with the alignment of teeth and restorations and 359 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: malaclusions and all these things that Dennis talk about, it 360 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: would have been great, but it's very difficult to get 361 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: those and they actually had a number of leftover remains 362 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: that they never could actually get positively identified. I think 363 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: there's a level that you and I have never really 364 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: discussed about identification. It's called presumptive identification, and it's like 365 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: you have all the information, but you don't have enough 366 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: to say scientifically that absolutely this is it. It's a 367 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: presumptive idea and you go ahead and go without it. 368 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: I've never been a big fan of that, but some 369 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: of these were presumptive ideas. The forensic identologists, though, can 370 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: come into an environment, and they come into all kinds 371 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: of austere environments. There were a ton of forensic odontologists 372 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: on the ground at nine to eleven. They travel all 373 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: over the world to work plane crashes. And we're not 374 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: talking about bike marks here, Dave. We're talking about actual 375 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: dental examinations. I've assisted many of these over the years, 376 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: and to give you an idea how this works in 377 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: the morgue, Generally, the dentally identification of an individual is 378 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: done our examination. Rather, identification comes later after the examination. 379 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: It comes after the autopsy. Okay, So you do the 380 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: autopsy first and then the forensic odentologist comes in. And 381 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: what we will do for that odentologist is we literally 382 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: cut the jaws out of the body. So you go 383 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: up here to the primary joint with the jaw like 384 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: TMJ you cut through it. You cut out all the 385 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: soft tissue and remove the jaw. Then you have to 386 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: go into the maxilla, which is where your upper teeth, 387 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: your maxillary teeth are located. And you know, as you 388 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: go up from inside of the maxilla, you start to 389 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: get into sinuses, you know, so you cut you reflect 390 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: the lips all the way up do dissection. You take 391 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: the striker saw, the same one that you open the 392 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: skull with, and all the way back to the very 393 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: back tooth to that area. You're going to cut this 394 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: kind of arcing linear incision with the striker saw and 395 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: literally pop the roof of the mouth out with the 396 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: teeth intact. You say, wow, it's incredibly gruesome, Morgan, thank 397 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: you for giving me that image. Well, let me explain 398 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: to you why we do it that way. If you've 399 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: ever seen like a the best way I can explain it, 400 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: if you've ever seen like a mechanical engineering dr where 401 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: they have like what they call an exploded view of 402 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: all the little nuts and bolts and everything that you 403 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: couldn't see, like if it was all self contained, Like 404 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: if you're putting together a boiler. It's got all kinds 405 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: of you know, internal guts, mechanisms and everything. You can't 406 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: really see that you don't understand it, so they do 407 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: what's called an exploded view. Well, same kind of principle 408 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: exists with friends of codentology and examination post warning examination. 409 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: If you can take those jaws, the jaw itself and 410 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: lay it down on the table, and take the maxilla 411 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: and lay it out so that the teeth are upward, 412 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 1: the bases of the teeth are up or the business 413 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: surface of the teeth are up then as they're sitting there, 414 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: you can go over them. I mean, think about every 415 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: time you've sat in a dental chair and you got 416 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: this guy. He's got a light on top of his head. 417 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: He's got these fine tools that really really hurt many times. 418 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: And what what's the one directive they're always telling you 419 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: when you're sitting in a chair, open wider, open wider, 420 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: open wider. The hygienis will say that are hey, could 421 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: you turn your head this way and open a little 422 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: bit wider, and they're trying to get access. Well, these 423 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: individuals are deceased, and so you don't have to ask 424 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: for access. As a matter of fact, you're not encumbered 425 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: by the lack of light. That's one of the tough 426 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: things about I think about people that practice dentistry is 427 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: the lack of light that they have to illuminate this 428 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 1: very tight space they're having to work in. So we 429 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: can actually take those jaws and do X rays. I've 430 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: here's two interesting things that people might not know. I've 431 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: actually gotten bodies identified through sinus patterns on skulls where 432 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: we're examining the teeth. We do an X ray of 433 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: the face, and you can see all of the sinuses, okay, 434 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: and they kind of even dip down into the maxillary area. 435 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: And we'll compare a post mortem X ray with an 436 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: anti mortem X ray and it's a teeth or like 437 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: missing or whatever. We'll actually use sinuses to get those. 438 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: To get those identified, you can rotate the head and 439 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: any number of ways, or you know, you can rotate 440 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: the jaws in any number of ways to capture capture 441 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: a post mortem X ray so that you can manipulate it, 442 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: you can better observe, Like if there's fillings, you know, 443 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: look just because okay, Dave, Let's say that you and 444 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: I both had a filling, okay, and it's the same tooth, 445 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: all right. Let's say it's our second molar all right 446 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: bottom right side. We've both got a cavitated area in there. 447 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: You and I are going to go get a filling 448 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: for this thing. Well, after they put the filling in, 449 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: they take our X rays, okay, post filling, and you 450 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: look at it, did you you know did you know 451 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: that if they put those side by side, even though 452 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: we've had the same tooth filled. And this might seem 453 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: rather obvious, but just don't want people understand. Put them 454 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: side by. Our feelings are not going to look the same, Okay, 455 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: because the cavity doesn't look the same. Just because your 456 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: tooth cavitates in a particular way doesn't mean that mine will. 457 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: So even the outline of that can be used as 458 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: a point of identification. So I think, from the perspective 459 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: of using teeth as an identifier with the dead, it 460 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: has a lot of utility. I don't think that we 461 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: will ever leave that behind. The other side to this 462 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: is going to be this area that forensic dentistry got 463 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: off into, which is bite mark assessment. And keep in mind, 464 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: not every forensic dentist practiced forensic bite mark assessment because 465 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: they knew scientifically that you can't and I use this 466 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: term a lot, you can't quantify it. Understand this, and 467 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: just think about this the next time you bite into 468 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: an apple. All right, if you eat your apples with 469 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: the skin on, This only applies to the skin on people. 470 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: So you bite an apple and you bite into it 471 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: depended upon how you're holding the apple in your hand, 472 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: depended upon if you're laying on your back, you're sitting up, 473 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: maybe you're leaned over a table. It's going to adjust 474 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: how your teeth are going to strike that surface if 475 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: you rotate it just the slightest a bit. Now, take 476 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: that same image in your mind and apply it to 477 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: a human being that's wiggling beneath you as you're choking 478 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: life out of them, as you're beating them to death. 479 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: They're resistant to this sadistic pain that's being inflicted upon them. 480 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: So as they adjust, and we know that skin is 481 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: very malleable. It moves in all kinds of directions. Some 482 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: people's skin is loaded with collagen and it snaps back 483 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: really quick. The older you are, the more wrinkly you get, 484 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: the less collagen you get, skin is not going to 485 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: be as reactive. You bite into this person and they 486 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: twist in a particular way, Well, guess what the static 487 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: teeth that an individual has in their mouths Suddenly that 488 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: impression is blown all to helen back because the movement 489 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: of the victim, and also you don't know what position 490 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: the perpetrator was in when they bit down on an individual, 491 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: and all the teeth are not always going to be 492 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,959 Speaker 1: included in this so it's a That's one of the 493 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: reasons that like when you go to court with any 494 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: kind of evidence, it doesn't matter what it is. When 495 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: you go to court with any kind of evidence, you 496 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: have to be able to scientifically verify that and validate 497 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: it and try to understand what form and function and 498 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: can you sit on a stand and explain to a 499 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: jury why this is this way? Because we know this, 500 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: we know this. There have been forensic idontologists out there 501 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: that's simply based upon their testimony. They have literally put 502 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: people on death row. Dave the gray or my hair 503 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: gets more forgetful, I would come. You look back over 504 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: your shoulder and tom or as some people say, in 505 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: the rear view mirror, and those fine details that you 506 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: once held on to. It's really hard many times to 507 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,479 Speaker 1: kind of recapture those. But there are certain events that 508 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: stand out over the course of your career. The average 509 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: mundane day to day is it's whatever. But there are 510 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: certain things that you know to kind of draw you 511 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: back to the past. And there's one case in particular 512 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: that I kind of wanted to put out there that 513 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. I thought that our friends might might 514 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: find it interesting. I certainly do still to this day. 515 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: I got called out to a case on what's referred 516 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: to as the West Bank in New Orleans, in Jefferson Parish, 517 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: and it was involving a young girl and it seems 518 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: like she was either seven seven or nine, seven eight 519 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: or nine, and it was her living in an apartment. 520 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: And it was a second story apartment that had you 521 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: know that I know you've probably lived in one. I've 522 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: lived in one where the walkway for the entire apartment 523 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: goes right outside your window. You know, It's like it's 524 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: got like a cast iron rail right there, and you know, 525 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: you enter in off the walkway and you can stand 526 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: outside and look over the you know, look over the 527 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: parking lot is essentially it's not the most private thing, 528 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: you know. But this little girl was living with her mama, 529 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: and it was about it's probably about nine o'clock at night. 530 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,959 Speaker 1: It was in summertime, and she had already put on 531 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: her nightgown and she was wearing a nightgown and my 532 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: little pony underwear. I'll never forget that as long as 533 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: I live. And the air was out and this is 534 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: in New Orleans, all right, So you've got the window 535 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: open adjacent to the walkway. The kitchen windows open so 536 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: you can get cross ventilation, and Mama's in the back 537 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: room fold and clothes because mama has to go downstairs 538 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: to the laundry room. You know, you have these in 539 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: all the you know apartment complexes where you got to 540 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: drop quarters in, sit there with your laundry, little girls 541 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: watching some television program Mama enters the room and programs on. 542 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: Little girl's gone doors locked from the inside, and didn't 543 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: know where she she went. There was a big manh 544 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: hunt that it ensued, and when she was found by 545 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: a group of men that were had kind of all 546 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: gathered in on this hunt, she was right on the 547 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: edge of a little forested area just out back of 548 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: this apartment that her mama rented. And to say that 549 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: she was unrecognizable is inaccurate. I never beheld anything like this. 550 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: And are you familiar, Dave, with Asex tennis shoes. You 551 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: ever heard that name before? Ax, Well, that's the first 552 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: time I'd ever heard of Asex. The reason it's significant 553 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: is because the person that killed her stomped her to 554 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: death with a pair of Asex and the patterns that 555 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: appeared on her on her face her neck, her shoulders, 556 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: and even on her chest were consistent with a particular 557 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: style of this make of shoe. Well, as it turns out, 558 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: he was finally caught and it was actually the caretaker 559 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: for h for this apartment complex. It's one of the 560 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: few times, Dave, where I have seen a group of 561 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: cops so furious that they they had murder in their eyes. 562 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: And it was actually kind of a scary place to 563 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: be in because people have been searching for this girl, 564 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: holding out hope that they were going to find her, 565 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: and this all happened, and like just the twinkling of 566 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: an eye. I mean, the whole process happened really quick. 567 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't like you know these cases we 568 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: hear today, We've got a missing child alert out and 569 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: they go for days, and it wasn't like that. This 570 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: whole thing turned around in like I don't know, it's 571 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: like five hours, and you had people really pumped up 572 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: about this, you know, they were they wanted to find 573 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: the scirrel. Wanted to find squirrel. You got that. 574 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: It's in the first hours. You've got a chance to 575 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: get her alive, you know, you do. You could have 576 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: just run off and she's missed I mean that's you're right. 577 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: Everybody's totally pumped the first few. 578 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: Hours they are, and I had I saw senior police 579 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: officers talking down junior police officers because they everybody wanted peace. 580 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: The guy survived, but I got to tell you it 581 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: was the whole thing was just surreal. We say, more 582 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: than does this have to do with forensic codeontology? Well, 583 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked that question, because I'm about to 584 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: get to it. It was that same night that I 585 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,280 Speaker 1: happened to meet an individual named Michael West. I'd never 586 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: seen him in person, never shaking hands with him. However, 587 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: one of my colleagues back then, actually guy that was 588 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: my mentor, said you got to meet this guy. He's 589 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: amazing because he's a forensic odentologist and he works with 590 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: alternative lighting. And when I say alternative lighting, I'm talking 591 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: about using things like UV infra red, this sort of 592 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: thing in order to take photographs where certain details under 593 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: those conditions will be enhanced that you could not otherwise 594 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: see with regular photography or the naked eye. Well, he 595 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: drove down from Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and man, he had all 596 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: these whiz bangs with him. I mean he had everything lights, 597 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, the whole nine yards talks real fast. He's 598 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: big fella, comes into our morgue and it's my case. 599 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: So I volunteered, and I had to call the forendsic 600 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: pathologists like is this okay if I do this? And 601 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: his renown had spread by that time. It was way 602 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: outside of the area, you know, the New Orleans area 603 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: in Mississippi. He was appearing and talking places. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 604 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and use it. Well, Dave, I didn't. 605 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about, you know, alternative lighting when 606 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 1: it comes to documenting injuries on bodies. And I remember 607 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: sitting there and watching him go through this exercise of 608 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: snapping the various photographs, having me move the body so 609 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: that he could get these, and it was almost like 610 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: being at a magic show where the guy that's got 611 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: the cards and he's saying, look here, you know, like this, 612 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: look here, watch this, and all the while something else 613 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: is going on, and he kept telling me, almost as 614 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: if I'm there to validate what he's seeing. Don't you 615 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: see this BikeE mark right here? I guess I don't. 616 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: This is outside my realm of expertise. I don't know 617 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: if that's a bite mark, because what I had seen 618 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: was this specific waffle pattern that had abraided this precious 619 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: young girl's face and shoulders and her abdomen all over 620 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 1: the place. And he's out of all of that, he's 621 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: finding BikeE marks as well. And granted, the alternative light 622 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: pictures that he took were incredible. You know when you 623 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: see them, there wasn't no more a bike mark on 624 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: that young girl's body than a man in the moon. 625 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: And you know, and that's one of the things that 626 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: happened with bike mark. It wasn't just West, it was 627 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: others like him. But you know, they had so many 628 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: of these cases, Dave in and there's two in particular 629 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: that really really caught my attention. There were these two 630 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: African American gentlemen that had both been accused in the 631 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: same area of raping little girls and biting them and 632 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: tossing their bodies in a creek. And they this is 633 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 1: before DNA, they didn't have it. One guy was sent 634 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: to serve a life term in prison, the other guy 635 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: was sent to death row. And as it turned out, 636 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: it was a close both yeah, both, No, No, it wasn't. 637 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: It was the bite marks may have been there, but 638 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 1: it was one person doing all of it, and they 639 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: didn't catch that individual. 640 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, So these poor men around these two guys. 641 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and and that's there have been Just so that 642 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: I get my facts right here, you know, I'm I'm 643 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: looking right now at an article from twenty twenty, I 644 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: guess from Criminal Legal News. There have been thirty thirty 645 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: four convictions based on bite marks alone that had been overturned. 646 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: Thirty four. Just let that sink in just for a second. 647 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: And the idea that that you can take. You remember 648 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: what I was talking about the dynamics of the teeth 649 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: and the dynamic of actually biting somebody. You can't there's 650 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,360 Speaker 1: no way that I can take and assign a number 651 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: to that. And in the examination of some kind of 652 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: contused area where you can't you can't make out fine 653 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: detail the mouth. The mouth is fascinating the way it works. 654 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,959 Speaker 1: Most people never consider it. You know, I was talking 655 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: about earlier, how you go through the process of processing 656 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: food in your body. Just so you understand, you have incisors, right, 657 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: So you've got the incisors. What do they call it? Incisors? Well, 658 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: in size means to cut, Okay, So that's why we say, 659 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:42,240 Speaker 1: even in forensic pathology, in sized wound, that's like a slice, 660 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,879 Speaker 1: So you're incisors actually slice food. So then you get 661 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: to your canines, which are cuspids, and then you have bicuspods. 662 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: Imagine those cuspards being almost like the times on a 663 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: hayfork like this, So you go up into the hay 664 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: and you rip, you rip like this. The bicuspods then 665 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: take the teeth, take the food. They'll move it down 666 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: the line to the premolars and the molars. And what 667 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: are they made for, Well, they're made for grinding. So 668 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: you've got cut tear grind, cut tear grind. And the 669 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,439 Speaker 1: entire time the tongue is involved in this as well. 670 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: That's why if we do have what we suspect as 671 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: a bite mark, we can go to that area and 672 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: swab the area around the bite mark to collect potential 673 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: foreign DNA, just off saliva, because saliva is very rich 674 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,879 Speaker 1: in DNA that that certainly has utility. You know, when 675 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: you begin to think about these bite marks and what 676 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,720 Speaker 1: happens in that process. And here's another thing that occurs 677 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 1: with biting. Biting has an element of sucking too. Well, 678 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: you don't think about it it's not something that's like 679 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: really profound. You know, when people are taking in food 680 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: depend upon how they eat. But if you have a 681 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: sexual attack, if you have a sexual attack, it's almost 682 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: like this gigantic hickey that appears on the body. And 683 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: the thing about the hickey is the hickey creates a 684 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 1: hematoma and it can disrupt the appearance of the bite 685 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: mark as well, because you've got a contusion that's coming 686 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,839 Speaker 1: about as a result of the teeth breaking the skin 687 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: and it's kind of leaching in there. You've got the 688 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,439 Speaker 1: sucking action that's going on behind it. So many times 689 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: you'll get this kind of gigantic, amorphous, kind of oval 690 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: shaped blob with very little detail. Well, you're going to 691 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: tell me that scientifically, you can look at the outer 692 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: fringes of that and apply number to that because it 693 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: has to be numerical. That goes back to a suspected 694 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 1: person that has done the body. It beats all I've 695 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,839 Speaker 1: ever seen, and sometimes it's very disheartening, you know, when 696 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: you think about the various practices there are in forensic 697 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: science that are out there, you think about the good 698 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: that forensic science has done, but when you consider the 699 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: sheer numbers of people that have gone to jail. They've 700 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,800 Speaker 1: missed Christmas, they've missed their kids graduating from high school, 701 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: they've missed dance recyitles, they've been threatened with their life 702 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: being taken away, and all because a faulty forensic science. 703 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: I think we've made a course correction at this point 704 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: in time. I think that forensicodontology certainly has grand utility 705 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: when it comes to still identifying bodies. There's nobody better 706 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: out there than a dentist at fine motorwork that I 707 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: put them up against just about anybody that's a physician 708 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: because they have to deal with the tiniest of tools. 709 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: They're great at extracting DNA from the pulp of teeth, 710 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,239 Speaker 1: which is something we certainly need a lot of right now. 711 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: They're delicate and their practice, I would hazard say I 712 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: probably learned more from forensic identologists about what to do 713 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: right in forensic science, but along learning what is definitely wrong. 714 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body backs