WEBVTT - ICYMI: Falling Satellites and Atmospheric Risks

0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.800
<v Speaker 2>You are listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch

0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.120
<v Speaker 2>us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern.

0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:19.120
<v Speaker 2>Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app,

0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.920
<v Speaker 2>or watch us live on YouTube.

0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:24.200
<v Speaker 3>Not like you don't have enough things to worry about,

0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:25.400
<v Speaker 3>but check this out, folks.

0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.040
<v Speaker 4>You know, daily life.

0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.240
<v Speaker 3>Increasingly depends on systems of satellite satellites orbiting the Earth.

0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.280
<v Speaker 4>As fleets proliferate, every greater.

0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.519
<v Speaker 3>Numbers of expired units will ultimately hurtle back towards the surface.

0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.440
<v Speaker 3>They're coming back down, So what could possibly go wrong?

0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:44.000
<v Speaker 3>I got to say this is the subject today at

0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:46.680
<v Speaker 3>Bloomberg's Big Take. It means the Bloomberg editorial team has

0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:47.279
<v Speaker 3>said this is.

0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.280
<v Speaker 4>A must read. It is also among the most read

0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:51.559
<v Speaker 4>stories on the Bloomberg, And I.

0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:53.720
<v Speaker 3>Got to say it's a story that should be experienced

0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.600
<v Speaker 3>online or on the Bloomberg because it's just very cool

0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.600
<v Speaker 3>in terms of the graphics and images and animations that

0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:00.000
<v Speaker 3>a company.

0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:01.560
<v Speaker 4>All Right, So let's get to it.

0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:03.800
<v Speaker 3>A team of reporters worked on it, led by Bloomberg

0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.600
<v Speaker 3>News Sustainability editor Eric Roston, he joins us here in studio,

0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.520
<v Speaker 3>also with us as Bloomberg News space reporter Sana Pussienkart,

0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:13.080
<v Speaker 3>she is in Washington, d C.

0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.440
<v Speaker 4>All right, guys, incredible, we've all been talking about this story.

0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.840
<v Speaker 3>It's a little terrifying. Eric, Why don't you set this scene.

0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.280
<v Speaker 3>We know that there are a lot of satellites in space,

0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:23.319
<v Speaker 3>and we're talking about a lot of times.

0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.720
<v Speaker 4>There are a lot of smaller satellites. We know we

0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:26.600
<v Speaker 4>really need them.

0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:28.720
<v Speaker 3>Lay it all out for us, give us some size

0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.800
<v Speaker 3>and scope here and what we're feeling, what we're dealing with.

0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Sure, so we've been sending up ever more satellites since

0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:44.319
<v Speaker 1>the advent several years ago of satellite Internet services, obviously

0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.960
<v Speaker 1>with Starlink being the pretty far ahead of all the others.

0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:53.160
<v Speaker 1>And we've all read stories over the years of space junk,

0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.120
<v Speaker 1>and there's so much stuff that we've sent into orbit

0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.400
<v Speaker 1>that there's increase in concern that something might hit something

0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.680
<v Speaker 1>else and then you'll have screws flying around twenty thousand

0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.440
<v Speaker 1>miles an hour. Nobody wants that. So, knowing that all

0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.560
<v Speaker 1>these satellites were going up, they were built according to

0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:15.320
<v Speaker 1>what's called a designed for demise strategy basically at the.

0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.360
<v Speaker 3>End of the like a plan to obsolescence in space

0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:19.280
<v Speaker 3>one hundred percent.

0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and like these things last like five years, and

0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.160
<v Speaker 1>so they deorbit them and they just let the atmosphere

0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.000
<v Speaker 1>burn them up. And the thing, the funny thing about

0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.839
<v Speaker 1>burning something up is like you don't get rid of

0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.000
<v Speaker 1>it's the particles that make it up. So all those

0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.440
<v Speaker 1>particles that used to be in the satellite are just

0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:39.760
<v Speaker 1>going to become a part of the atmosphere. And that's

0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:43.080
<v Speaker 1>kind of been fine in over the decades as we've

0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.280
<v Speaker 1>deorbited things and burned them up the atmosphere. But given

0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.680
<v Speaker 1>the projections of how many satellites are going to go

0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:50.760
<v Speaker 1>up and how many are going to have to come

0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:56.799
<v Speaker 1>out of orbit every day, they're looking at a seating

0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.160
<v Speaker 1>of the top of the atmosphere with a number of

0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:06.519
<v Speaker 1>substances that could lead to further deterioration of the ozone layer,

0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.519
<v Speaker 1>which is this this gaseous layer that hangs in the

0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.799
<v Speaker 1>stratosphere and protects living things from the Sun's ultra violet race.

0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.040
<v Speaker 3>Basically, we're allowed to live right survive because we have

0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:16.760
<v Speaker 3>the ozone layer.

0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's a little.

0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:22.240
<v Speaker 1>Important, it's pretty important. And so there's and the neat

0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.400
<v Speaker 1>thing about the science that is coming out now is

0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.640
<v Speaker 1>like it's not a problem yet. Like one thing that

0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.520
<v Speaker 1>I think has overlooked a lot about some of these

0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.600
<v Speaker 1>like big systemic planetary problems is like, even though they're

0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.400
<v Speaker 1>like they seem huge and unmanageable to us, like you know,

0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:44.160
<v Speaker 1>a big rock in space with it like atmosphere around

0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.240
<v Speaker 1>it is kind of easy to model for the physicists.

0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.240
<v Speaker 1>And so they've gotten pretty good over the last fifty

0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.760
<v Speaker 1>to one hundred years of saying, hey, if we keep

0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.200
<v Speaker 1>adding these materials like this is probably going to happen.

0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.640
<v Speaker 1>So we're getting the alert just when we need it

0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.520
<v Speaker 1>most in just when the industry and governments can decide

0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.800
<v Speaker 1>how they want to cope with the issue.

0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.920
<v Speaker 5>So, Sona, let's bring you in here. Maybe you could

0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:13.360
<v Speaker 5>just describe to us what actually happens. There's a satellite,

0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.440
<v Speaker 5>you know, it's deconstructing I guess we could call it,

0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.240
<v Speaker 5>and it's falling from the sky, Like what is going

0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.600
<v Speaker 5>on with the satellite itself? And then in the atmosphere

0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:24.920
<v Speaker 5>when this is taking place.

0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.800
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, so they're basically the satellites when.

0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.599
<v Speaker 7>They are diorbited at the end of their life span,

0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:38.840
<v Speaker 7>they basically disintegrate upon re entry, so the atmosphere kind

0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.120
<v Speaker 7>of pulls them in and they burn up in the

0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.960
<v Speaker 7>fiery atmosphere and they release materials like aluminium and other

0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:50.239
<v Speaker 7>metals and that, as Eric mentioned, it can potentially alter

0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:55.520
<v Speaker 7>the chemical composition of the upper atmosphere and it could

0:04:55.560 --> 0:05:00.000
<v Speaker 7>also you know, deplete the ozone layer. And as Eric mentioned,

0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.240
<v Speaker 7>and you know that the research is still it's still new,

0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.240
<v Speaker 7>it's still burgeoning, but that is what scientists are saying.

0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:11.000
<v Speaker 7>And you know, it's especially important because this issue is

0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.000
<v Speaker 7>only supposed to get more extreme as the number.

0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:15.720
<v Speaker 6>Of satellites are expected to project.

0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.680
<v Speaker 7>So right now, the amount of satellites and the amison

0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.400
<v Speaker 7>in orbit have basically followed like a hockey puck trend,

0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:25.320
<v Speaker 7>soy they keep.

0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:26.960
<v Speaker 6>Every single year, there's been like for that.

0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:28.760
<v Speaker 7>I think at the past five or six years, there's

0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.960
<v Speaker 7>been a record number of satellites going up. And you know,

0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.040
<v Speaker 7>there's some projections that there's you know, around twelve thousand

0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.279
<v Speaker 7>today and that could go up to between nearly sixty

0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.120
<v Speaker 7>thousand to one hundred thousand.

0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.359
<v Speaker 6>In about five years. That's nuts exactly.

0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.440
<v Speaker 7>So with that all those satellites have to come down

0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.680
<v Speaker 7>at some point. So that's why, you know, the alarm

0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.039
<v Speaker 7>bell is so important right now because we have the

0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.240
<v Speaker 7>opportunity to kind of help, you know, make regulation mitigate

0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.520
<v Speaker 7>those impacts before maybe it becomes too late.

0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.719
<v Speaker 4>Oh that's I'm so sweet. I just go throwing numbers.

0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.640
<v Speaker 3>You guys have great stats in the Airpart twenty thirty five,

0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.040
<v Speaker 3>Golden Sacks projects the value of the satellite industry will

0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.200
<v Speaker 3>reach one hundred and eight billion, up from fifteen billion.

0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:11.360
<v Speaker 3>I'm being fun with you in terms of regulation because

0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:15.040
<v Speaker 3>I'm just wondering. It sounds like Eric, somebody the government,

0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.680
<v Speaker 3>like somebody needs to be watching and saying we got

0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:20.320
<v Speaker 3>to deal with this potentially.

0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and ironically, the government's decision that these things should

0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.080
<v Speaker 1>sunset after five years was a part of looking at

0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.680
<v Speaker 1>the situation and forward thinking. But you know, there's just

0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.159
<v Speaker 1>no free lunch. So any policy decision is do they.

0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.800
<v Speaker 4>Have to have them sunset after five years.

0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, they'll stop working just at a certain point, and

0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.279
<v Speaker 1>totally you don't want stuff flying around. I mean, one

0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.640
<v Speaker 1>of the things they're looking at that engineers are looking

0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.360
<v Speaker 1>at in terms of making these things themselves is are

0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.960
<v Speaker 1>there other materials they can make it out of, you know,

0:06:55.120 --> 0:07:01.039
<v Speaker 1>things that may not see the atmosphere with these particular chemicals.

0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:07.920
<v Speaker 5>SANA talk to us about the observed environmental impacts that

0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.280
<v Speaker 5>we've seen so far. I know in the in the piece,

0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.320
<v Speaker 5>you guys mentioned soot and I'm wondering, you know, scientists

0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:19.000
<v Speaker 5>have observed these effects, but do we understand yet whether

0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.560
<v Speaker 5>these are are necessarily bad or not.

0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.960
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, So it is an early It is an early

0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:33.280
<v Speaker 7>field of research. But it has been seen that that

0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.880
<v Speaker 7>like kerosene, which used to power many launches. So this

0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.160
<v Speaker 7>is now talking about when the rockets are bringing the

0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:44.160
<v Speaker 7>satellites into orbit that was powered by kerosene, which could

0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:46.840
<v Speaker 7>lead to sub pollution. So that is you know, a

0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.040
<v Speaker 7>chronicle chronicled effect.

0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:51.480
<v Speaker 6>And so when.

0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:56.400
<v Speaker 7>That is you know at at locked your heights like

0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.400
<v Speaker 7>it's in the atmosphere, it absorbs heat and it accelerates

0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.880
<v Speaker 7>glacial So that is one impact that we know is happening.

0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.840
<v Speaker 7>But that's more associated with launches than with satellite re entries.

0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.160
<v Speaker 7>With satellite re entries, it's a little bit more uncertain.

0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:16.560
<v Speaker 7>They definitely have There's been a good amount of research

0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:21.120
<v Speaker 7>that says that these particles have the especially the ones

0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.960
<v Speaker 7>that are like aluminum and aluminum ones have the ability

0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:26.920
<v Speaker 7>to you know.

0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.040
<v Speaker 6>Affect the ozone layer. But those are still.

0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.760
<v Speaker 7>Being studied and there's definitely like a lot more research

0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.040
<v Speaker 7>that needs to be done to understand how is you know,

0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.280
<v Speaker 7>the best way for satellite companies to think about this,

0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.679
<v Speaker 7>the best way for governments to think about this industry.

0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, it's interesting because you guys include in

0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.280
<v Speaker 3>this too about what happened with jet fuel right and

0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.319
<v Speaker 3>the impact on the ozone and certainly companies, the industries

0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:52.800
<v Speaker 3>came together, and I want to put this out to

0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:54.160
<v Speaker 3>both of you. Son, I'll go to you first, and

0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.640
<v Speaker 3>then Eric maybe come on in. It's just I mean,

0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.200
<v Speaker 3>is regulation even an option when you have someone like

0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:06.280
<v Speaker 3>Elon Musk around the White House trying to get SpaceX contracts?

0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:10.280
<v Speaker 3>You know, guilty, I've got you know, one of his discs.

0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:13.640
<v Speaker 4>I can't even think about. It's called Darling, Starling, Thank

0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:14.200
<v Speaker 4>you very much.

0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.800
<v Speaker 3>Like I like, I understand it works really well the value,

0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.800
<v Speaker 3>But I'm just curious, is it even an option with

0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:22.720
<v Speaker 3>Elon Musk and Son? If you have some thoughts in that,

0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:24.440
<v Speaker 3>then I'd love Eric for you to address as well.

0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:27.400
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, totally. I mean it's hard.

0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:29.640
<v Speaker 7>I feel like this is not you know, what's on

0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.880
<v Speaker 7>top of mind for people in the government and especially

0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:38.520
<v Speaker 7>satellite companies, and like the people that you think about

0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.120
<v Speaker 7>this regulation, which is the FCC. The FCC makes the

0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:45.040
<v Speaker 7>regulations for space companies. The Space Bureau chief of the

0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.679
<v Speaker 7>FCC said that we can, you know, manage this without regulation,

0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.000
<v Speaker 7>and we can be sustainable in space without regulation. But

0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.440
<v Speaker 7>it's also like it's confusing how exactly that would happen

0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:57.280
<v Speaker 7>without regulation.

0:09:57.840 --> 0:09:58.880
<v Speaker 6>And so I think that.

0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.920
<v Speaker 7>When you have an administry that is so enthusiastic about

0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:06.360
<v Speaker 7>reaching the commercial heights of space and lower orbit, it's

0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:10.319
<v Speaker 7>definitely feels more difficult than maybe it could have been

0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:15.720
<v Speaker 7>in the past or in another administration. And also like

0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.200
<v Speaker 7>we spoke to several companies and you know, they are

0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.280
<v Speaker 7>going to keep operating the way they do unless someone

0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.120
<v Speaker 7>tells them, you know, that there's new regulation you have

0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:25.560
<v Speaker 7>to do that.

0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.160
<v Speaker 6>So I think it will really have to start at

0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:28.480
<v Speaker 6>the top.

0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:30.240
<v Speaker 7>But as you said, I think it's a little bit

0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.080
<v Speaker 7>difficult to see that really happening.

0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.720
<v Speaker 3>And today, Eric Coboning, could you guys even talk about

0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.160
<v Speaker 3>I think someone talking about you know, we need some

0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.720
<v Speaker 3>research a little bit more, right, and we know research

0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.000
<v Speaker 3>has been cut back in a big way in the government.

0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can just roll out of bed and collect

0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.600
<v Speaker 1>data from the top of the stratosphere. And there's some

0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.280
<v Speaker 1>data that's that's come in over the years from launches

0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:59.560
<v Speaker 1>to see what's what's in the wake of rocket launches.

0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:04.160
<v Speaker 1>But this is they need a new program. There was

0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.520
<v Speaker 1>there was a good study in twenty twenty three that

0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.320
<v Speaker 1>came out, one of the first things to put this

0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:14.360
<v Speaker 1>on the map. They flew NASA stratospheric you know, high

0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.760
<v Speaker 1>flying airplanes, collected some materials from up there, and they

0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:25.080
<v Speaker 1>found that like already like ten percent of the stratospheric

0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:33.160
<v Speaker 1>aerosols have aluminum in it from re entered satellites, you know.

0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.480
<v Speaker 4>The Yeah, so I don't know. I hate to leave

0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.280
<v Speaker 4>people with like, well, there's there's a good part.

0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.079
<v Speaker 1>You know, we have a we have a strong history

0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.360
<v Speaker 1>of dealing with the ozone layer. You know, there was

0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.920
<v Speaker 1>a huge problem in the mid eighties. All the countries

0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:49.960
<v Speaker 1>got together decided they were going to fix it, right.

0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so like maybe we should take a page from

0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:54.880
<v Speaker 3>the history books in this and Let's hope everybody looks

0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:56.880
<v Speaker 3>at that and reminder of what we can do.

0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.800
<v Speaker 4>Guys. Incredible story Sna Passion Kerr.

0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.480
<v Speaker 3>She is a Bloomberg News Space reporter out in DC,

0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.760
<v Speaker 3>and of course Eric Roston, Bloomberg New Sustainability Editor.

0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.240
<v Speaker 4>Check it out. It is the Bloomberg Big Take. It's

0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:08.960
<v Speaker 4>on the Bloomberg