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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch

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Speaker 2: us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern.

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Speaker 2: Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app,

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Speaker 2: or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: Not like you don't have enough things to worry about,

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Speaker 3: but check this out, folks.

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Speaker 4: You know, daily life.

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Speaker 3: Increasingly depends on systems of satellite satellites orbiting the Earth.

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Speaker 4: As fleets proliferate, every greater.

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Speaker 3: Numbers of expired units will ultimately hurtle back towards the surface.

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Speaker 3: They're coming back down, So what could possibly go wrong?

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Speaker 3: I got to say this is the subject today at

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Speaker 3: Bloomberg's Big Take. It means the Bloomberg editorial team has

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Speaker 3: said this is.

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Speaker 4: A must read. It is also among the most read

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Speaker 4: stories on the Bloomberg, And I.

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Speaker 3: Got to say it's a story that should be experienced

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Speaker 3: online or on the Bloomberg because it's just very cool

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Speaker 3: in terms of the graphics and images and animations that

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Speaker 3: a company.

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Speaker 4: All Right, So let's get to it.

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Speaker 3: A team of reporters worked on it, led by Bloomberg

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Speaker 3: News Sustainability editor Eric Roston, he joins us here in studio,

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Speaker 3: also with us as Bloomberg News space reporter Sana Pussienkart,

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Speaker 3: she is in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 4: All right, guys, incredible, we've all been talking about this story.

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Speaker 3: It's a little terrifying. Eric, Why don't you set this scene.

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Speaker 3: We know that there are a lot of satellites in space,

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Speaker 3: and we're talking about a lot of times.

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Speaker 4: There are a lot of smaller satellites. We know we

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Speaker 4: really need them.

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Speaker 3: Lay it all out for us, give us some size

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Speaker 3: and scope here and what we're feeling, what we're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: Sure, so we've been sending up ever more satellites since

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Speaker 1: the advent several years ago of satellite Internet services, obviously

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Speaker 1: with Starlink being the pretty far ahead of all the others.

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Speaker 1: And we've all read stories over the years of space junk,

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Speaker 1: and there's so much stuff that we've sent into orbit

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Speaker 1: that there's increase in concern that something might hit something

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Speaker 1: else and then you'll have screws flying around twenty thousand

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Speaker 1: miles an hour. Nobody wants that. So, knowing that all

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Speaker 1: these satellites were going up, they were built according to

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Speaker 1: what's called a designed for demise strategy basically at the.

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Speaker 3: End of the like a plan to obsolescence in space

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and like these things last like five years, and

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Speaker 1: so they deorbit them and they just let the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: burn them up. And the thing, the funny thing about

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Speaker 1: burning something up is like you don't get rid of

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Speaker 1: it's the particles that make it up. So all those

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Speaker 1: particles that used to be in the satellite are just

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Speaker 1: going to become a part of the atmosphere. And that's

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Speaker 1: kind of been fine in over the decades as we've

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Speaker 1: deorbited things and burned them up the atmosphere. But given

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Speaker 1: the projections of how many satellites are going to go

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Speaker 1: up and how many are going to have to come

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Speaker 1: out of orbit every day, they're looking at a seating

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Speaker 1: of the top of the atmosphere with a number of

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Speaker 1: substances that could lead to further deterioration of the ozone layer,

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Speaker 1: which is this this gaseous layer that hangs in the

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Speaker 1: stratosphere and protects living things from the Sun's ultra violet race.

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Speaker 3: Basically, we're allowed to live right survive because we have

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Speaker 3: the ozone layer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a little.

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Speaker 1: Important, it's pretty important. And so there's and the neat

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Speaker 1: thing about the science that is coming out now is

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Speaker 1: like it's not a problem yet. Like one thing that

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Speaker 1: I think has overlooked a lot about some of these

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Speaker 1: like big systemic planetary problems is like, even though they're

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Speaker 1: like they seem huge and unmanageable to us, like you know,

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Speaker 1: a big rock in space with it like atmosphere around

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Speaker 1: it is kind of easy to model for the physicists.

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Speaker 1: And so they've gotten pretty good over the last fifty

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Speaker 1: to one hundred years of saying, hey, if we keep

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Speaker 1: adding these materials like this is probably going to happen.

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Speaker 1: So we're getting the alert just when we need it

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Speaker 1: most in just when the industry and governments can decide

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Speaker 1: how they want to cope with the issue.

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Speaker 5: So, Sona, let's bring you in here. Maybe you could

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Speaker 5: just describe to us what actually happens. There's a satellite,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's deconstructing I guess we could call it,

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Speaker 5: and it's falling from the sky, Like what is going

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Speaker 5: on with the satellite itself? And then in the atmosphere

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Speaker 5: when this is taking place.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so they're basically the satellites when.

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Speaker 7: They are diorbited at the end of their life span,

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Speaker 7: they basically disintegrate upon re entry, so the atmosphere kind

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Speaker 7: of pulls them in and they burn up in the

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Speaker 7: fiery atmosphere and they release materials like aluminium and other

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Speaker 7: metals and that, as Eric mentioned, it can potentially alter

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Speaker 7: the chemical composition of the upper atmosphere and it could

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Speaker 7: also you know, deplete the ozone layer. And as Eric mentioned,

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Speaker 7: and you know that the research is still it's still new,

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Speaker 7: it's still burgeoning, but that is what scientists are saying.

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Speaker 7: And you know, it's especially important because this issue is

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Speaker 7: only supposed to get more extreme as the number.

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Speaker 6: Of satellites are expected to project.

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Speaker 7: So right now, the amount of satellites and the amison

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Speaker 7: in orbit have basically followed like a hockey puck trend,

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Speaker 7: soy they keep.

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Speaker 6: Every single year, there's been like for that.

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Speaker 7: I think at the past five or six years, there's

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Speaker 7: been a record number of satellites going up. And you know,

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Speaker 7: there's some projections that there's you know, around twelve thousand

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Speaker 7: today and that could go up to between nearly sixty

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Speaker 7: thousand to one hundred thousand.

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Speaker 6: In about five years. That's nuts exactly.

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Speaker 7: So with that all those satellites have to come down

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Speaker 7: at some point. So that's why, you know, the alarm

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Speaker 7: bell is so important right now because we have the

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Speaker 7: opportunity to kind of help, you know, make regulation mitigate

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Speaker 7: those impacts before maybe it becomes too late.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's I'm so sweet. I just go throwing numbers.

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Speaker 3: You guys have great stats in the Airpart twenty thirty five,

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Speaker 3: Golden Sacks projects the value of the satellite industry will

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Speaker 3: reach one hundred and eight billion, up from fifteen billion.

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Speaker 3: I'm being fun with you in terms of regulation because

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Speaker 3: I'm just wondering. It sounds like Eric, somebody the government,

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Speaker 3: like somebody needs to be watching and saying we got

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Speaker 3: to deal with this potentially.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and ironically, the government's decision that these things should

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Speaker 1: sunset after five years was a part of looking at

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Speaker 1: the situation and forward thinking. But you know, there's just

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Speaker 1: no free lunch. So any policy decision is do they.

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Speaker 4: Have to have them sunset after five years.

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Speaker 1: Well, they'll stop working just at a certain point, and

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Speaker 1: totally you don't want stuff flying around. I mean, one

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Speaker 1: of the things they're looking at that engineers are looking

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Speaker 1: at in terms of making these things themselves is are

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Speaker 1: there other materials they can make it out of, you know,

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Speaker 1: things that may not see the atmosphere with these particular chemicals.

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Speaker 5: SANA talk to us about the observed environmental impacts that

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Speaker 5: we've seen so far. I know in the in the piece,

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Speaker 5: you guys mentioned soot and I'm wondering, you know, scientists

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Speaker 5: have observed these effects, but do we understand yet whether

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Speaker 5: these are are necessarily bad or not.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So it is an early It is an early

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Speaker 7: field of research. But it has been seen that that

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Speaker 7: like kerosene, which used to power many launches. So this

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Speaker 7: is now talking about when the rockets are bringing the

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Speaker 7: satellites into orbit that was powered by kerosene, which could

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Speaker 7: lead to sub pollution. So that is you know, a

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Speaker 7: chronicle chronicled effect.

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Speaker 6: And so when.

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Speaker 7: That is you know at at locked your heights like

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Speaker 7: it's in the atmosphere, it absorbs heat and it accelerates

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Speaker 7: glacial So that is one impact that we know is happening.

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Speaker 7: But that's more associated with launches than with satellite re entries.

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Speaker 7: With satellite re entries, it's a little bit more uncertain.

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Speaker 7: They definitely have There's been a good amount of research

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Speaker 7: that says that these particles have the especially the ones

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Speaker 7: that are like aluminum and aluminum ones have the ability

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Speaker 7: to you know.

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Speaker 6: Affect the ozone layer. But those are still.

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Speaker 7: Being studied and there's definitely like a lot more research

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Speaker 7: that needs to be done to understand how is you know,

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Speaker 7: the best way for satellite companies to think about this,

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Speaker 7: the best way for governments to think about this industry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's interesting because you guys include in

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Speaker 3: this too about what happened with jet fuel right and

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Speaker 3: the impact on the ozone and certainly companies, the industries

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Speaker 3: came together, and I want to put this out to

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Speaker 3: both of you. Son, I'll go to you first, and

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Speaker 3: then Eric maybe come on in. It's just I mean,

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Speaker 3: is regulation even an option when you have someone like

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk around the White House trying to get SpaceX contracts?

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Speaker 3: You know, guilty, I've got you know, one of his discs.

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Speaker 4: I can't even think about. It's called Darling, Starling, Thank

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Speaker 4: you very much.

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Speaker 3: Like I like, I understand it works really well the value,

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Speaker 3: But I'm just curious, is it even an option with

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk and Son? If you have some thoughts in that,

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Speaker 3: then I'd love Eric for you to address as well.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, totally. I mean it's hard.

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Speaker 7: I feel like this is not you know, what's on

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Speaker 7: top of mind for people in the government and especially

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Speaker 7: satellite companies, and like the people that you think about

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Speaker 7: this regulation, which is the FCC. The FCC makes the

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Speaker 7: regulations for space companies. The Space Bureau chief of the

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Speaker 7: FCC said that we can, you know, manage this without regulation,

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Speaker 7: and we can be sustainable in space without regulation. But

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Speaker 7: it's also like it's confusing how exactly that would happen

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Speaker 7: without regulation.

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Speaker 6: And so I think that.

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Speaker 7: When you have an administry that is so enthusiastic about

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Speaker 7: reaching the commercial heights of space and lower orbit, it's

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Speaker 7: definitely feels more difficult than maybe it could have been

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Speaker 7: in the past or in another administration. And also like

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Speaker 7: we spoke to several companies and you know, they are

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Speaker 7: going to keep operating the way they do unless someone

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Speaker 7: tells them, you know, that there's new regulation you have

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Speaker 7: to do that.

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Speaker 6: So I think it will really have to start at

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Speaker 6: the top.

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Speaker 7: But as you said, I think it's a little bit

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Speaker 7: difficult to see that really happening.

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Speaker 3: And today, Eric Coboning, could you guys even talk about

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Speaker 3: I think someone talking about you know, we need some

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Speaker 3: research a little bit more, right, and we know research

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Speaker 3: has been cut back in a big way in the government.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can just roll out of bed and collect

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Speaker 1: data from the top of the stratosphere. And there's some

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Speaker 1: data that's that's come in over the years from launches

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Speaker 1: to see what's what's in the wake of rocket launches.

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Speaker 1: But this is they need a new program. There was

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Speaker 1: there was a good study in twenty twenty three that

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Speaker 1: came out, one of the first things to put this

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Speaker 1: on the map. They flew NASA stratospheric you know, high

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Speaker 1: flying airplanes, collected some materials from up there, and they

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Speaker 1: found that like already like ten percent of the stratospheric

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Speaker 1: aerosols have aluminum in it from re entered satellites, you know.

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Speaker 4: The Yeah, so I don't know. I hate to leave

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Speaker 4: people with like, well, there's there's a good part.

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Speaker 1: You know, we have a we have a strong history

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Speaker 1: of dealing with the ozone layer. You know, there was

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Speaker 1: a huge problem in the mid eighties. All the countries

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Speaker 1: got together decided they were going to fix it, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so like maybe we should take a page from

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Speaker 3: the history books in this and Let's hope everybody looks

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Speaker 3: at that and reminder of what we can do.

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Speaker 4: Guys. Incredible story Sna Passion Kerr.

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Speaker 3: She is a Bloomberg News Space reporter out in DC,

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Speaker 3: and of course Eric Roston, Bloomberg New Sustainability Editor.

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Speaker 4: Check it out. It is the Bloomberg Big Take. It's

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Speaker 4: on the Bloomberg