WEBVTT - Steve Bannon's ‘Misdemeanor From Hell’ Trial 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.440 This is gonna be the misdemeanor from hell for Merrick Garland, 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:16.560 Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden fighting words from Steve Bannon in 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.720 January after appearing before a judge to face criminal contempt 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.560 charges for defying a subpoena from the January sixth Committee. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.120 We're gonna go on the offense. We're tired of playing defense. 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:30.280 We're gonna go on the offense on this and stand by. 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.760 Six months later, there's no offense and not much of 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.320 a defense. Bannon is standing trial in a DC federal 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.760 court on Monday after a judge eviscerated most of his defenses. 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.199 Joining me as former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rogers and adjunct 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.400 professor at n y U Law School, Jennifer, let's start 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.680 with Bannon trying to get his trial postponed and volunteering 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:58.360 on the eve of trial to now testify before the committee. Basically, 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.360 the whole game plan for defending usually is delay until 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:03.960 you can't delay anymore. So that's just kind of a 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.479 typical thing, you know, always push it off, push it off. 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.240 But he's just trying to play a game here. I mean, 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.000 he's been charged with contempt for what he did in 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:16.360 the past in stonewalling the committee, refusing to testify, refusing 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.800 to hand over documents, And this is kind of a 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.560 last effort to say, well, you're claiming that I did 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:24.399 all this stuff, but you know I'll do it now, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.640 So let's put it off so that I can actually cooperate, 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:28.520 which is what you want after all, Like what are 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.200 we doing here sort of things. So really just the 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.720 kind of last gasp for him of a way to 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.119 try to put things off and delay things. And also, 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:41.040 by the way, plant this kind of jury nullification seed 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.320 in people's minds that why are we making a federal 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.880 case of this if he's actually willing to do it now. 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:51.840 So Bennon's defense wants to use this supposed new cooperation 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.240 to argue at his trial that he wasn't remiss in 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.160 defying a subpoena from the House Committee in the first place. 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:01.000 The judge said he would decide lay later whether banning 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.320 can use that as a defense. But how is that relevant? 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.400 Even yeah, you're right, it's not, And that's what d 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.160 o J has said in their response. I mean he 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.080 was charged with what he did in a specific time 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:16.959 period that has a long past. So even if this 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.200 day after they charged him with an indictment he turned 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.320 around and said, hey, okay, you know what, Now, I 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.000 get that you're serious. Now I'm willing to do it, 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.880 even then it would have been too late, because the 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.079 point is you can't just swards a subpoena and ignore 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.320 a subpoena and just get away with it and damage 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.880 their investigation by doing so, and then say, okay, well 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:40.920 I'll do it when I really get in trouble for it. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.720 So the point is it's too late to change his tune, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.640 and it's been too late for a long long time. 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.720 So there's no legal way that this is a relevant 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.240 argument for the jury. I think the judge is just 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.399 going to reserve, because judges often do that. They don't 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.880 want to decide everything in advance. Sometimes they want to 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.480 see how you and it comes in and things play out. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.280 But I cannot imagine a scenario in which the judge 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.600 allowed Bannon's lawyer to put in that argument, because it's 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.160 just legally completely irrelevant. All it really is a play 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.160 to the jury for nullification, which is not illegally justifiable 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:20.080 arguments made. The judge denied Bannon's request to delay the 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.200 trial because of publicity surrounding the January six Committee hearings, 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.800 and he also shot down most of Bannon's other proposed defenses. Now, 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.840 some of Bannon's defenses seem like they were out there, 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.839 like saying the committee was improperly constituted. Were there any 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.480 that seemed reasonable to you? Most of them did not. 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:45.360 I wouldn't have been shocked to see a judge pushed 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.280 the trial a little bit to get out of the 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:54.080 active January six Committee hearings. You do want a fair jury. 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.720 You want a jury that says it can be impartial. 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.760 You want a jury that isn't too steep in what 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.760 going on around Trump and Bannon and the January sticks Committee. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.720 And so I wouldn't have been shocked to see the 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.520 judge say, you know what stuff is going on right now? 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.480 The Committee is going to be done with their hearings 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.000 in a matter of a couple of weeks. Let's push 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:16.560 it a month so we kind of get out of 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.200 that news cycle about the committee to give us a 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.960 better chance of getting a jury that hasn't been watching 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:24.960 the hearings and kind of hearing all this on a 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.560 daily basis, so I wouldn't have been surprised at that. 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.520 I don't think it's legal error not to do it 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.080 by any stretch. So that argument could have had a 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.640 little bit of traction with the right judge. So after 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.400 Judge Nichols pretty much throughout all these defenses, one of 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.479 Bannon's defense attorneys said, what's the point of going to 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.599 trial if there are no defenses? And Judge Nichols said, agreed, 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.880 I mean, what does that say? Yeah, you know, I 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.640 don't know. He's just spending right, he's just a little frustrated. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:54.120 I think there's a sense for I don't know that 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.960 he's really meant to to put that out there. But 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.000 that's exactly the point. He doesn't have any valid defense 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.000 this to this. I mean, he made a real strategic 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:08.080 error to just completely stonewall the committee. You know, he 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.640 could have done the Mark Meadows strategy, been a bit 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.760 smarter about negotiating and maybe turning some things over, or 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.320 at least agreeing to show up and claim his privileges 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.240 in person or something. You know, there were lots of 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.480 ways that he could have given a little bit and 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.600 looked like he was at least somewhat cooperative. That would 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.760 have made it much harder for do O J to 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.000 charge him and given him more arguments if they did. 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.880 He didn't do that. He wanted to take the hundred 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.200 percent I'm not doing this. Look how loyal I am. 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.480 You know, I'm a stand up Trump guy. And that 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.000 really is coming back to bite him now because he 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.160 just doesn't have any defense at all to the way 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.760 that he handled this whole subpoena inquiry. So he's got 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.040 to live with that now. He doesn't have any defenses. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:54.599 So as lawyers kind of like, what am I going 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.680 to do at trial? You know, the way that you 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.159 would complain to a colleague or a friend. What the 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:00.919 world am I going to do standing up trying to 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.640 defend this guy? And the answer is, I don't know. 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.080 You know, you're gonna have to see what you can 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:07.880 come up with. I mean, really, what he's gonna do 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:10.760 is make a play for jury nullification, which is not 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:12.719 a legitimate thing to do, and the court will have 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.320 to be careful in the way that it tries to 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.039 kind of cabin those arguments and not letting him go 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.080 too far with them. But he doesn't have any legitimate defense. 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.240 But you know that happens. Actually, I mean, it's not 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.599 that uncommon that you have a defendant who insists on 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.479 going to trial, refuses to plead, doesn't really have a 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.880 legitimate defense, and you go through the motions because that's 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.520 the defendant's right, and you end up with a conviction 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.800 in those cases. And that's what I expect to see here. 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.120 What would an argument for jury nullification look like? There's 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.880 a few things. I mean, he could try for nullification 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.240 just on the fact that maybe you end up with 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.880 some jurors who like Trump and like Bannon, and maybe 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.320 you kind of appeal to them and you want them 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.000 to hang up the jury right so that you can't 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:59.480 get a conviction because just politically they're on one side, 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.400 you know, ver is the other side. You might say, 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.039 why make a federal case of this kind of just 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.240 play to the whole what's the harm here? Really? You know, 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:10.960 the committees talked to a lot of people. They don't 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.920 really need to talk to everybody. They're just throwing their 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.520 weight around. No harm, no foul. That's another nullification argument. 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.960 I mean, the argument that you raised that he actually 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.840 didn't understand that the subpoena had validity. That's really more 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:28.800 of a legal argument. I mean that the court's going 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.240 to say it's not a legitimate legal argument. But that's 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.400 not as much a nullification argument as these other things, 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.920 which just kind of, you know, it's almost like winking 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.080 at the jury and saying, you know, okay, I get 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.200 that it's you know, actually a violation, But what's the 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:44.760 big deal. Why don't you just let me off the 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.680 hook here for a reason that's not legitimate. That's really 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.960 the nullification argument, and that happens. Juries do some strange things. 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.320 Defense got one ruling Bannon may present evidence to show 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.960 that his failure to comply with the subpoena wasn't intentional. 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.920 For example, if he was unclear on the deadline for 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.680 his response, I don't know what he could put forth here. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.640 The judge said that thinking one is legally excluded or 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.280 thinking a subpoena is invalid is not the same as 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.360 thinking a reply date was put on hold, So he'd 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:18.040 have to show some basic misunderstanding. Yeah, this is a 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.400 strange one. All this is saying is listen, if you 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.440 have evidence like this, bring it. Of course, you know 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:26.960 of course you're allowed to bring evidence that you know. 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.680 Let's say he shows up with a letter that says this, 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:31.880 I got this letter from the committee and it says 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.640 I don't have to comply by that date. Don't worry 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.439 about it. We're pushing it back. You know, you don't 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.920 need to worry about this. The problem is that letter 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.920 doesn't exist. So what the judge is saying is, if 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.840 you actually have evidence that means you're not guilty because 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.040 they gave you, you know, a longer time frame, or 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.600 they narrowed what you have to bring, and then you 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:53.880 were charged with not bringing something that the committee said 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.079 you don't have to bring. Of course you can present 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.000 that evidence anyone could, right that basically shows that you're 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.000 not guilty of problem is, there is no such evidence. 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.000 So that's kind of a false victory for Bannon here 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.080 because he's not going to be able to show that 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.480 the committee didn't try a million times over right to 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.040 get the evidence from him on certain dates that they 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.280 repeated over and over with a certain scope of documents 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.000 and testimony they wanted that they were clear about, and 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.360 that he just completely blew all of it off. So 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:27.160 what does the government have to show to prove his guilt, Well, 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:32.160 they'll show that he was very clearly subpoenaed for specific information, 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.920 specific testimony, that all of this was very clear to Bannon. 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.040 It wasn't just that it was sent once by certified 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.200 mail and then they ignored it. I mean, they have 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.600 evidence that he received the subpoena right through his counsel, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.319 that he was aware of these requirements, and that he 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:54.120 willfully didn't comply. And so you know, there there was 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.560 some discussion of this, for example on his podcast. You know, 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.360 he made public statements that out it. So there's lots 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.800 of ways that they can show that it was a 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.120 bad faith non responsiveness, right, that this wasn't just oh, 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.240 they slipped it through my mailbox and I never thought 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.120 it or it was so confusing and I didn't understand it. 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.320 I mean, it was pretty clear from all of the 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.000 surrounding evidence when you look at his public statements, Trump's 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.560 public statements what was going on with other witnesses at 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.040 the time that he knew exactly what he was doing, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.439 and what he was doing was trying to undercut their 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.600 investigation by not providing them with the evidence that they 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.720 were speaking from him. So Jennifer if he's convicted, he 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:39.080 can do jail time. He can, he can, absolutely he 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:44.600 there's actually a mandatory minimum here, so he will do 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.520 jail time if he's convicted. That's the interesting thing about 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.800 this particular misdemeanor. So you know, it's not a lot 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.280 of jail time. It's it's thirty days for each count 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.280 and up to a year for each count. So you 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:58.720 know he would get on the low end of that, 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.240 probably the in a mom of one month per count. 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.800 But yeah, I mean, Steve Bannon very well could go 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.880 to prison here, and that's obviously what he's now kind 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.040 of doing all these last minute maneuverings to try to 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.720 avoid I want to turn now to another Trump ally 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:19.160 defying a subpoena. A judge has ordered Republican Senator Lindsey 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:23.400 Graham to appear before a special grand jury in Atlanta 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:29.640 investigating interference in the presidential election on August two. He 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.440 said that Graham was a necessary and material witness to 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.800 the grand jury probe. This comes after Graham was subpoena 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.000 and vowed to challenge the subpoena. What else can Graham 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.920 do to fight this, Well, he's going to ultimately have 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.600 to comply. I suspect he can get more time if 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.200 he wants more time. August is pretty close to now, 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.680 so I'm sure if you know, his lawyer contacts the 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.200 D's office, they can work something out with the timing. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.600 But this is a legitimate subpoena at Georgia. Judge has 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:06.600 signed off. They have ways of getting cooperation from other states, 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.160 so that in the worst case scenario playing in now 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.840 for Lindsay Graham, if he absolutely refused to comply, he 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.240 could be arrested and brought to Georgia to testify. So 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.760 he certainly doesn't want to trigger that happening, so he 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.400 is going to have to show up. There Goold moved 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.760 to quash the subpoena, but this judge has already said 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.200 that he finds, you know, he's been necessary witnessed, so 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.480 that's out. So he's going to have to comply. I 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.920 think he can get more time and negotiate some sort 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.480 of appearance that is more convenient for him if he 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.839 wants two or three weeks or whatever it ends up being. 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.400 But he's going to have to show up. Is it 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.720 just political that he doesn't want to show up because 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.040 you know, we all know about the two calls he 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:49.360 made to the Georgia Secretary of State Raffensburger. Raefensburger has 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.400 already testified to the grand jury, so the grand jury 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.480 knows about it, and he's been told that he's a witness. 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.400 He's not a subject or a target of the investigation. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.440 I mean, I think there's a couple of things going on. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.880 One thing is in your own self interest. You want 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.120 to make sure that you're not in jeopardy, So being 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.160 told you're not a target is one thing. He might 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:16.199 also actually be seeking technical immunity. He may want an 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.480 actual order of immunity UM, so his lawyer would be 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.800 negotiating that UM. And then the political side, as you mentioned, 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.760 I mean, he's been a loyal Trump supporter. He doesn't 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.360 want to be seen as going away from that right, 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:32.920 and he still wants to be seen as a loyal 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.560 Trump supporter. So I think that those things combined is 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.160 why he's reluctant. But he probably knows he's going to 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:40.800 have to do it. This is a little bit of 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:45.000 show trial, right, I'm resisting, I'm not doing it. They 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.160 have to come get me and then lo and behold 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.160 in a couple of weeks the areas in Georgia, right, 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.520 but he wants to give this kind of impression of 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.840 still being on team Trump and he only has to 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.560 go down there because he has absolutely no choice. Do 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.800 you think it would look bad for a siting senator 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.520 to ask for immunity? I don't know. I mean, listen, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.360 it's funny. We've seen We're kind of in a different 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.760 era now, right. I mean, I think it used to 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.320 be that if you were a senator and you ask 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.320 for immunity from criminal prosecution, everyone would be like, that's 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.680 so outrageous, you know that you think you did something 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.560 that you need immunity for. Nowadays we have people asking 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.600 for pardons, right, So, um, I'm kind of in a 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.000 different world. And you know, I got to tell you 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:28.960 there are a lot of criminal defense lawyers who, if 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.480 they were representing Lindsey Graham, would say, thank you for 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.880 your statement that he's not a target, but we want immunity. 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.040 You know, that is what really protects your clients. So 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.600 you know, I think a lot of lawyers would be 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.440 pushing for that just as the kind of firmest protection 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.480 for their clients. Now, maybe Lindsay Brown does push back 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.760 and say but I'm a senator. I can't ask for immunity. 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.120 I suppose that's possible, But honestly, nowadays, in the world 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.640 we live in now, with people asking for pardons, I 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.320 think they're more interested in their own kind of self 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.520 interest then and how it appears. So we'll see, we'll 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:05.840 see if that's how it shakes out, if if that 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.920 comes out publicly, but I think it's probably at least 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.240 under discussion between Lindsey Graham and his lawyer and then 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.479 perhaps with the Dass as well. Thanks so much, Jennifer. 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.040 That's Jennifer Rogers of n y U Law School coming up. 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:24.520 Brittney Grinder on trial. This is Bloomberg Family, friends and 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.000 teammates have been mounting a full court press to bring 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.640 w n B A star Brittney Grinder back home from Russia, 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.200 where she's been detained since February when Hashee so Sooyle 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.640 was found in her luggage. Her wife, Cheryl Grinder, has 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.640 been speaking out were you sitting over there, Cutchy having 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.000 having coming see your rescue yet there was even a 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.680 phone call with President Joe Biden and a letter from him. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.280 National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan says the White House is 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.400 doing all it can to secure her release. We are 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.160 working directly with the Russian government through appropriate chan was 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.360 to try to bring a speedy resolution not just to 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.600 her case, but to Paul Wheelan's case as well. Surprising many, 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.640 Grinder pleaded guilty to the Russian drug charges last Thursday, 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.960 saying she packed in a hurry and had no criminal intent. 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.800 The guilty on the charges, but I had no intention 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:23.560 on breaking any Russian law. Grinder's plea makes a conviction certain, 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.400 but unlike in American courts, it doesn't automatically end her trial. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.720 Joining me as Jeffrey Kahn, a professor at s m 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:37.720 used Deadman's School of Law, defendants in Russian courts are convicted. 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.640 What do you think Grinder waited so long to plead guilty. Well, 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.720 that's a complicated question, and there are two ways of 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.760 answering it. One is she didn't have the opportunity. She 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.280 was placed in a Russian jail and subjected to pre 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.040 trial detention while the state began its investigation, and so 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.360 she didn't have, under Russian law really any opportunity to 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.880 do so, earliers. The larger answer is the Russian criminal 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.879 justice system operates on very different principles than the US 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.200 adversarial system. Growth lies on something called a case file, 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.639 and this case file is completely in the control of 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:19.119 the state. It is this binder that contains all the 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.600 evidence that a court will consider. In an American court, 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:27.080 nothing counts as evidence unless it's been provided through live 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:31.080 witness testimony. In a Russian court, if it's not in 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.120 the case file, it didn't happen. And although there are 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.840 some opportunities for a defense attorney to ask for things 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.720 to be included in the case file, everything, everything is 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.560 in the control of the state's investigator, the sled the vattal. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.720 And although that official is supposed to be independent from 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.080 the prosecutor, and that's supposed to preserve an equality of 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.919 arments between the parties, there's always this anxiety that the 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.120 state can put its thumb on the scale with as 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:05.200 much pressure as it wants. So Grinder's trial is continuing. 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:09.320 So far there's been what we call good character evidence 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.960 from a Russian team, how long after the trial concludes 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:19.200 before she sentenced. In the Russian system an imposition of punishment. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.479 The sentencing usually is done in very close proximity with 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.240 the court's conclusion that the defendant is guilty of a crime. 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.800 So conviction and sentence usually come very close together. That's 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.560 another big difference between the US approach and the Russian approach. 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:40.040 In the US approach, the individual can try to present 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.720 reasons why lesser sentence should be imposed. There is very 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.439 little time in the Russian system for contrition to happen. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.720 The judge is going to impose that sentence very quickly, 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.520 and so it may be that Ms Grinder was given 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.800 the advice that if she wanted to be able to 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.639 influence the size of her sentence, now is the time. 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.040 In the beginning of Grinder's detention, it seemed like her 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.320 family and supporters kept a low profile, but recently it's 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.800 been just the opposite. There have been press conferences, a 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.720 lot of interviews with her wife, the pressure on President Biden, 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.680 what do you think change the strategy? People who have 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:23.600 been involved in this sort of circumstance, and it's a 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.240 horrific thing to go through, and so our sympathies really 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.679 have to be with Miss Grinder and her family and 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:34.320 her supporters because it's very hard to know exactly what 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:36.920 to do. On the one hand, people have been through 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.359 this say that they're often given to the advice that 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.520 the United States government could act in their interest best 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.560 if there isn't a lot of attention. And since miss 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.920 Grinder was arrested just a week before the Russian Federation 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.840 engaged as a war of aggression against Ukraine, that may 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.000 have been very good advice. Don't let her become a 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.160 bargaining chip. Let's see if we can quietly figure out 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.440 what's going on and if at all possible, get this 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.600 resolved very very quickly. But when the Russian Federation started 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.399 to ask for more and more extensions of time, there 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:14.000 must have been two or three extensions of time granted, 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:18.800 because normally the pre trial detention while the state is 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.119 gathering evidence for the case file shouldn't take more than 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.960 two months. But she'd been in pre trial detention for 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.400 more than four and a half months, and I think 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:32.159 at that point perhaps the family and her supporters decided 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.520 the only way to do this is to make a 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.240 very very loud noise and to bring this to the 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:41.160 forefront of attention. If she wasn't a bargaining chip before, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.119 maybe the anxiety was she had become one, and and 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:49.440 the way to try to influence the proceedings was to 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.400 make a lot of noise and gather a lot of attention. 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:56.199 In early May, the State Department declared that she had 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.920 been wrongfully detained and didn't explain why they signated her 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.760 as wrongly detained. What are the criteria that they normally use? 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.240 The State Department didn't say, But that really does seem 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.920 to have been the pivot point, doesn't it. Normally states 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.760 will accord a degree of of appreciation to another state's 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:21.919 criminal justice system, just as we expect that other states, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.720 when their nationals are charged and tried in our criminal 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.800 justice system, should allow our process UH to UH to 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.520 work its course. But we know from statements by the 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:38.760 State Department after that designation was imposed that the United 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:43.080 States had lost confidence that the the law on the books, 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.280 so to speak, which to be frank, is a modern 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:52.480 and progressive and advanced body of law that was composed 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.320 not only with the help of members of the Council 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.080 of Europe, but also with our own Justice Department's advice 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.760 shortly after the collapse in the years following the collapse 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:05.120 of the Soviet Union. But the law on the book 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.800 doesn't always translate into the law in action, and so 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.320 I think the conclusion must have been reached that whatever 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:15.600