1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Invention, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: welcome to Invention. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick. And today we have a sweet episode for you. 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: We have a salty episode for you. We have a 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: relatively slow flowing, kind of uh, kind of stachy episode 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: for nice, thick episode for you. Because today's episode is 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: about catch up, which I just want to go ahead 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: and put it out there. This is gonna be far 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: more interesting, far more complex, and a little bit more 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: confusing than you might anticipate. You know, I was wondering 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: if we should start by confessing the strange things that 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: we put catch up on, because you just assume everybody 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: has some strange thing they put catch upon. But I 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: realize I am so boring. When it comes to catch up. 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: They go on fries for French fries, I put it today. 16 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: These days, I put catch up on French fries if 17 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: I have them, and put them on tater tots if 18 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: I have them. Um, what else? That's those are the 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: main things. Really. Um. If I'm making my own cocktail 20 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: sauce off, it's obviously I use ketchup as the base 21 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: for that. But um, yeah, Aside from that, I didn't. 22 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: I don't think I ever had any strange ketchup habits 23 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: growing up. I would I think I would occasionally take 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: a baked potato and cut it up into rounds and 25 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: put ketchup on that with two to the slightly slight disapproval, 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: I think of the rest of the table. But my 27 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: argument was, look, this is essentially the same as French fries. 28 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: We put catch up on French fries. I'm just doing 29 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: this to my baked potato instead of covering it in 30 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: butter and sour cream and what have you. How about you, 31 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: seth Do you put ketchup on soft serve? He says no, 32 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: My my son doesn't even put ketchup on anything. And 33 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: he's certainly at that age where you see a lot 34 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, strange ketchup or even sort of 35 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: catch up first strategies like one I've definitely seen before, 36 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: and maybe I did see him do this when he 37 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: was younger. I was like to take a French fry, 38 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: dip it in the catch up, lick the ketchup off 39 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: the French fry, get the French fry again, and essentially 40 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: use the French fry as a soggy delivery system for 41 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: that sweet uh you know, sweet and vinegary and salty, uh, 42 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, overpowering taste profile that is Ketchup. You know. 43 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: I was looking at the Hinz website earlier today and 44 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: I found one page where they were like they were 45 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: trying to, i think, advertise the benefits of Ketchup beyond 46 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: just it tasting good. And they're like, you can use 47 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: Ketchup to get your kids to eat healthy foods. Just 48 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: put Ketchup on healthy foods and then they'll eat them. 49 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: And I was thinking, I don't know what, how exactly 50 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: does that work? And you put ketchup on spinach and 51 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: then they spinach, you put it on sweet potatoes, and 52 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh yeah. I mean, look, I don't 53 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: have a lot of room to to talk on this 54 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: because my my son is fortunately has always been a 55 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: very good eater. But I can imagine if you're having 56 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: you're struggling just trying to get any food uh into 57 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: a young child, you you would you would turn to 58 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: put and ketchup on just about any thing to make 59 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: it happen. You know, we don't want to vilify ketchup 60 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: today because catch up already in many ways has a 61 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: pretty bad reputation, especially among foodies, and you know, people 62 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: have sophisticated palates. I think sometimes look at ketchup as 63 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: a thing that's just ruining the culinary world. It's it's 64 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: worldwide global homogeneity in in cuisine. Uh makes everything taste 65 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: the same. It just crushes individual flavor profiles of foods 66 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: and signals that like, you don't want to taste anything 67 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: for itself. Yeah, generally it's considered an insult to reach 68 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: for or ask for the catch up when you order 69 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: something at a really nice restaurant or even just a 70 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: passively nice restaurant. Um, unless of course, you have ordered 71 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: the burger and fries or some st man or of 72 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: fries and it comes with, say a housemaid ketchup that 73 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: is exclusively used for uh, for dipping. But then again, 74 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: you get French fries at a at a nicer place, 75 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: they're probably gonna have some other dipping options that are 76 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: also fantastic that deviate from the standard ketch up trope 77 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: smoked tomato, mayonnaise or something. Yeah, that's sort of thing. 78 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: And certainly we have more condiment possibilities available to us 79 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: now because but but for the long guest like catch up, 80 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: you know what, Like, that's what we grew up with. 81 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: You know that the ketchup is what you got it 82 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: all the fast food restaurants, and today you go to 83 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: just about any restaurant and there will be ketch up there. Um, 84 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: it's gonna be there in pumps and bottles and packets, 85 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: in slices even well, I don't know how many restaurants 86 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: are really leaning on the ketchup slices, but ketchup slices 87 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: do exist. Yeah, if you haven't seen it, they're like 88 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: the craft singles basically. Basically, someone said, you know that, 89 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: you know the hardened, dried ketchup that coagulates around the cap? 90 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: What have I had a whole slice of that? Wouldn't 91 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: that be great? I don't know, maybe it is great. 92 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: I have not tried it. But that's what we're gonna 93 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: be talking about today. Is is the world of ketchup? 94 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: Where does it come from? What is it? And why? 95 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: Why is it so potent? Why is it's so powerful? 96 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: It's something we all take for granted, but it has 97 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: an interesting story. So what is ketchup usually made of? Today? 98 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: When you get tomato ketchup in a bottle, your standard stuff, 99 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, not the weird kind, just the standard ketchup 100 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: you get at the store, at the diner. When we 101 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: think of ketchup and we think of that that thick 102 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: red stuff you squeeze out of a m out of 103 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: a bottle, you're generally talking about tomato, sauce, sugar or 104 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: another sweetener, vinegar, salt, and some sort of proprietary blend 105 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: of spices and seasonings, industrial additives, maybe preservatives, something like that. Yeah, 106 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: And I think commonly your tomato element and your sugar 107 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: element are probably going to be tomato paste and higher 108 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: discorn syrup. Yeah, highfrid discorn serrup has of course become 109 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: the standards, especially here in the United States. But that 110 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: being said, and as we'll touch on later, like you 111 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: can find a lot of ketchups on the market, including 112 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: ones from hines that that are sweetened, say with with 113 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: a sugar or honey, or reduce sugar and honey. You know, 114 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: there are plenty of other options out there now. When 115 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: in previous decades, though, I think it was it was 116 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: pretty much you had the one choice right right, So 117 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: when we when we dip a fern fry and catch 118 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: up where we put ketch up on our you know, 119 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: our burgers are hot dogs or wantons, whatever you're you're 120 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: putting it on. You know, it brings that blessed sweet, 121 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: sour and salty taste to any bite. So it's it's 122 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: potent stuff. It delivers several things that we as organisms 123 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: are hardwired to crave uh and and crave it we do. 124 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: That's why you see some serious pump abuse sometimes at 125 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: your local fast food restaurants, you know, where they'll they'll 126 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: they'll fill up not one cup, not too but maybe 127 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: three or four just to make sure they're they're covering 128 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: all their ground there, you know, they have all their 129 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: options available to them, or just pump it all over 130 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: top a big pile of fries. People do that. I'm 131 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: not of that school. I'm a dipper, not a drizzler. Yeah, 132 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: I prefer to because if it's drizzled, you're gonna end 133 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: up with that one French fry that is that is 134 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: drowned lost to the catchup um. But then again, I 135 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: think that has a benefit as you you know, as 136 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: many of us become a little wiser as we get older, 137 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: and we realized we should not eat all the French 138 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: fries better than some of the French fries drowned and 139 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: become inedible, than to actually polish off the entire plate. 140 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: But again, ketchup has a an overpowering at times flavor profile. Uh. 141 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: And it goes really well with certain things obviously. Uh. 142 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: And it's and it's good to have an overpowering flavor 143 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: profile if you're eating something that is say, less than appetizing. Um. 144 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: But it's certainly gonna insult the chef if you reach 145 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: for it when you're having, you know, something that has 146 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: a very delicate and planned out flavor profile itself. And 147 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: something I should say in addition to so you mentioned 148 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: that ketchup tends it's got this trio of flavors that 149 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: we like in a lot of sauces. It's got sweetness, 150 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: it's got acidity or sourness, and it's got saltiness. But 151 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: it's also got this other thing that's harder to define. 152 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: It's the the umami flavor. It comes from the tomatoes, 153 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: for you know, from the it is from the fermentation. Uh. 154 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: It's this savory, you know, deliciousness kind of quality that 155 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: that's a little bit um. It's not as sharper as 156 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: easily noticeable as the other three types of flavors. But 157 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: you really value it in many foods that you like, 158 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: and so it shouldn't become as a surprise that, especially 159 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: in the United States, it has become such a popular condiment. 160 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: I see that the number kind of varies. But for instance, 161 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: in a two thousand fourteen article from on the National 162 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: Geographic website, how was ketchup invented? By Jasmine and Wiggins Uh, 163 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: the author sites nine percent of American households report having 164 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: a bottle of the stuff around. That is a I mean, 165 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: that's a huge number. That's a huge number. I've seen it. 166 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: I've seen it higher, generally by ketchup companies, and I've 167 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: also seen it a little lower. But I mean, you know, 168 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: without you know, arguing over the exact number, like it 169 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: is a very widespread condiment, not only here, but now 170 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: you know, in various places around the world. But yet, 171 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: there was a time before ketchup. There was a time 172 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: when there was no ketchup. And we're going to begin 173 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: our journey by by traveling back in time. Let's get 174 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: some time travel sound effects. Can we can we blue blue, 175 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: blue blup or something? All right, Well, so we're traveling back. Yes, 176 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: we're seeking that time before ketchup? Was there a time 177 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: before Ketchup? Yes? But also no, because I told you 178 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: this is gonna be a little more confused in the 179 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: might think because in a large sense we have to 180 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: consider the legacy of the condiment, of the sauce itself, 181 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: and to think about its inception. You know, what, what 182 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: does it mean to put a sauce on something? Like? 183 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: What is what is ketchup itself? You know what is 184 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: what is it essentially doing? And it's pointed out in 185 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: Pure Ketchup, a History of America's National condiment with recipes 186 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: by Andrew F. Smith, who who will keep coming back 187 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: to because Andrew seems to be the one of the 188 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: primary authorities on the history of ketchup. He's like the 189 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: world Ketchup lore master. He's the l Rond of the 190 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: Saruman of Ketchup. Yes, but according to Smith, humans have 191 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: attempted to preserve foods with salt for thousands of years. 192 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: It retards the growth of bacteria, and salt and water 193 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: used like this, you know, is known as brining. Brian 194 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: something just right, and certain species of bacteria produce lactic acid, 195 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: which kills off harmful of that bacteria and lowers the 196 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: pH It also creates an environment suitable for fermentation, and 197 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: this changes the flavor. Yeah, this pickling. Yeah, And of 198 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: course we have pickling traditions in culture is just around 199 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: the world. And we can easily do an entire episode 200 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: just on pickling and food preserve preservation that I think 201 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: we will. Yeah, that that in and of itself is 202 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: a is a fascinating topic, especially when you get into 203 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: all the varied forms of it um from like burying 204 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of dead birds in the earth. You know 205 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: too well, the earth does play a role in a 206 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: number of different fermentation uh uh strategies that were developed, 207 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: the idea of taking something, taking a few ingredients, bundling 208 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: it away in the darkness of the earth, and then 209 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: bringing it back up when you need it when the 210 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: time of the harvest has grown cold. But as a 211 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: Smith points out, fermented sauces were certainly used by ancient 212 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: peoples to enhance flavors in their food as well as 213 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: and this is key to hide unpleasant odors because you know, 214 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: a lot of times, especially in the ancient world or 215 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: any time prior to our our modern age of of 216 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: of food abundance and food waste. You know, you often 217 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: have you had what you had, and sometimes it might 218 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: not smell that pleasant or taste that pleasant, but it 219 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: was what was for dinner. Uh. It was the meal, 220 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: and you had to choke it down one way or 221 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: the other. Uh, And so you might need to cover 222 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: up the underlying flavor or odor. So it's when a 223 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: bottle of ketchup would have come in real handy back then, exactly. 224 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: And they didn't quite have ketchup certainly, But the Greeks 225 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: and the Romans used something called garum, Smith says, which 226 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: was a fermented fish sauce. It was itself a byproduct 227 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: of salting tons of foot fish as a means of 228 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: preserving those fish. Yeah, and there are modern analogs of 229 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: of garum. There's an Italian cuisine. There's this stuff called colatura. 230 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: That's this you know, salty fermented fish sauce flavor that's delicious. 231 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: In Asian cuisines, you've got various forms of fish sauce 232 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: like nonpla oyster sauces, etcetera. Yeah, exactly. So you take 233 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,119 Speaker 1: some seafood you'd heavily salted, and you get an extract 234 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: from it. Um that is this funky, highly savory, ummi 235 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: rich salty kind of thing, and it's great. You know, 236 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: that stuff is great, not just in the you know, 237 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: the cuisines it's traditionally associated with, but chefs today use, 238 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: for example, Asia Southeast Asian style fish sauce in all 239 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: kinds of things. You'll find chefs putting uh Thai fish 240 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: sauce and beef stews and in chili and bolonnaise and 241 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: everything anyway anywhere you want to like boost the beefy 242 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: flavor of food. And they vary a lot, not only 243 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: in their their flavor, but also in their consistency. Yeah, 244 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: it was a summer, very thick, there's a very watery 245 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: uh and and I always any anytime you visit um 246 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: uh you know, a new you know, Asian restaurant, do 247 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: try all of the sauces, especially the ones you are 248 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: not familiar with, just to get a good uh you know, 249 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: a good you know, overall of the taste sensations available. Totally. 250 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: So yes, obviously, we have a wealth of pickling traditions 251 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: from around the world. Though it's a Smith points out 252 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: in the media. In the medieval world, in the medieval 253 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: European world, the byproduct of those pickling endeavors were often 254 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: just discarded instead of being reutilized as some sort of 255 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: a sauce um. And uh, I have to say that 256 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: my my son does not adhere to this, as he 257 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: loves to drink down the pickle juice from the pickle jar. 258 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: He'll drink down the sardine oil from the sardine can. 259 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: Uh he is, he does, he does not waste any 260 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: of it. Well, first of all, I can sympathize because 261 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: of course pickles are delicious and and that liquid therefore 262 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: is also somewhat delicious. But second, this springs up. I 263 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: don't even know if we should get into this. This 264 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: is we probably should. Okay, I don't want to spend 265 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: half an hour talking about this, but I just had 266 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: to mention my favorite article of all time from my 267 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: hometown newspaper, the Chattanooga Times Free Press, hit Caught in 268 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: a Pickle Chattanooga attorney Collma friends explain strange addiction and 269 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: it's about people who can't stop drinking pickle juice. The 270 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: main figure in this article is a local lawyer who 271 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: tells these stories about how when he's driving home from 272 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: more he would stop at the grocery store and he'd 273 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: get a jar of pickles and take him out to 274 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: his car, and he dump all the pickles out in 275 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: the parking lot and just guzzle down all the juice. 276 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: But now he's figured out that the smarter and more 277 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: economical thing is just to buy jugs of pickle juice, 278 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: like dill pickle juice by itself. You can order it 279 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: from I don't know, various manufacturers. I guess some people 280 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: just add their cucumbers straight to dill pickle juice. But 281 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: there are these accompanying photos on the Times Free Press 282 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: website of this guy posing with a gallon jug of 283 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: dill pick old Brian. That's a stigious award. Yes, I 284 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: love this. Uh this, I mean I've I've I've read 285 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: articles about like people who are such fermentation enthusiasts that 286 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: they and and sometimes they you know, they back this 287 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: up with arguments about the you know, the health benefits 288 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: of fermented products, and and they'll they'll sometimes take on 289 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: like a very fermentation heavy diet. But I also have 290 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: heard just anecdotal accounts so that I think my my 291 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: aunt was really into crowd juice for it for a 292 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: long time, and maybe still is just just because she 293 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: liked it or for like like health remody kind of, 294 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: I think it was because she just like the flavor. Yeah, 295 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: well I love pickles too. I don't go that far, 296 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: but yeah, it reminds me that the Hannibal Burriss stand 297 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: up comedy debt where he's talking about saving the jar 298 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: of pickles pickled juice after all the pickles are gone, 299 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: so that he can flick it onto his grilled cheese sandwich. 300 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: I don't know this bit. It sounds smart, Yeah, like 301 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: it Basically it's like a it's it's a bit about 302 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: roommates and not one in the roommate to throw out 303 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: the pickle juice because the pickle st juice still has 304 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: use and it can still be flicked onto. And I 305 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: think that that gets down to what we're talking about here, Like, yes, 306 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: the the resulting h pickle juice is still still packs flavor. 307 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: It can still be used to enhance other foods. So 308 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: even though the you know, in the medieval uh European world, 309 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: people weren't that into saving their their food preparation juices, uh, 310 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: still you had traditions of creating sauces from early Greek 311 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: times onward, Europeans made sauces that were based in large 312 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: part on vinegar raging for ranging from the simple to 313 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: the complex, and they grew very complex in Elizabethan Britain. Uh. Sauce, 314 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: after all, is where we get the the saucer from 315 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: which is of course ends up being so vitally connected 316 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: with the t culture that grows out of Britain. It's 317 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: actually for sauce. I had no idea. Yeah. This according 318 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: to our ketchup expert Andrew F. Smith. All right, well, 319 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: I don't mean this is a slam against British food, 320 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: but if you are sometimes going to be consuming i 321 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: don't know, say largely bland foods in your diet, sauces 322 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: are clearly going to become pretty popular. Yeah. Yeah, and uh. 323 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: He points out that in Robert may five book The 324 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: Accomplished Cook, Uh, the author list thirteen sauce categories, and 325 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: each of those sauce categories can contain upwards of a 326 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: dozen different sauces that you can make to say, put 327 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: on your mutton. Yeah. Now, I don't know how this 328 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: lines up historically with the French sauce tradition, but obviously 329 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: that's a huge thing as well, Like you know, the 330 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: French have all these uh, French high cuisine has this 331 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: whole family system of sauces, like sauces that you make, 332 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: and then the sauces that are derived from those sauces, 333 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: the mother sauces, and the sauces you make out of them. 334 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: For example, you might make like a French brown sauce, 335 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: and then from that can be derived these vinegar based changes. Uh. 336 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: It's very complex. So that's the the European theater roughly. 337 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: But then also, of course, you know, across across the continent, 338 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: across eur Asia, you have different traditions going on. Um. 339 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: Assalted and fermented fish sauces are an ancient part of 340 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia and as well, and you know they're they're too, 341 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: were numerous and varied in their flavor and consistency. For instance, 342 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: in in China, the soybean was domesticated uh by roughly 343 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: b c. E. And eventually soy sauce springs from this, 344 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: one of the great sauces of of human creation, the 345 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: ultimate savory condiment. Yeah, and then uh, you know, eventually 346 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: the Western and Eastern kingdoms of the sauce eventually meet 347 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: and during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, British and European 348 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: sailors were introduced to and impressed by the various soy 349 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: and fish sauces and sauces that they inevitably didn't even 350 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: really know, you know, what the ingredients were. They just 351 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: knew that when you put it on food, it was amazing. 352 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: And they no doubt, Um, you know, we're enthralled by 353 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: the possibility of bringing these sauces back to to spice 354 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: up things at home that we're either bland or had 355 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: grown bland to their now you know, excited palate and 356 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: uh and yeah, So they encountered these things on their voyages. 357 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: Smith writes, quote from this culinary crucible assaulted pickled and 358 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: fermented foods from ancient Europe and exotic Southeast Asia. British 359 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: ketchup materialized during the eighteenth century. All Right, it's time 360 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: to take a Breakpool will be right back with more 361 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: on the history of ketchup. Alright, we're back, Okay, Joe 362 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: who invented the ketchup? Was it Sir Carmichael Ketchup? Was it? 363 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: Was it Baron von ketch Up? There have been names 364 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: proposed by various food historians over the years. But these 365 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: these proposals are definitely wrong, Like we just know for 366 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: a fact, like we don't know the inventor of the 367 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: original ketchup. But as we've been explaining someone, the quest 368 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: chin of Ketchups inventors fraught anyway, because the sauce has 369 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: evolved so much over time. So where do you put 370 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: the inventor? Ketchup seems to be a long lineage of 371 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: copies of copies of types of sauces, and so the 372 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 1: origins of Ketchup bear very little resemblance to the sauce 373 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: that's sold under that name in most of the world today. 374 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, we will do our best to trace the 375 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: origins of how that sauce came to be. So when 376 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: you think about the characteristics of Ketchup, uh, Andrew F. 377 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: Smith points this out, and I think he's correct. You 378 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 1: try to think of the three main characteristics of ketchup, 379 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 1: but you'd probably think that it's something that's thick, something 380 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: that is sweet, and something that is made from tomatoes, right, yes, 381 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: and of course also just vitally red like so red 382 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: that that it often in our comedies and uh, you 383 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: know cartoons, it is a substitute for human blood yes, uh, 384 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: and so the origins of ketchup possessed probably none of 385 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: these qualities at all. Not made from tomatoes, not sweet, 386 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: not thick, not read uh. And so. In his book 387 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: in In Pure Ketchup and f Smith relays a number 388 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: of competing theories about the origins of ketchup, most of 389 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: which we now know are almost definitely wrong. A lot 390 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: of the older origin stories lie in Europe, like, for example, 391 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: that ketchup comes from the English word cavitch, which is 392 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: a type of fish pickled in vinegar. This and the 393 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: idea that this is a cognate for the French term 394 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: escovich a, which means like food and sauce for the 395 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: Spanish escabech a uh, this theory is now considered incorrect. 396 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: It seems generally agreed that ketchup, as we were saying 397 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: before the break, comes from some kind of tradition of 398 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: Asian cuisine. But while that's pretty well established, it gets 399 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: harder to pin down in more definite ways. In eighteen 400 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: seventy seven, somebody named Nas Dallas speculated that the word 401 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: ketchup comes from a Japanese word keep job k I 402 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: t j A P. However, this does not seem to 403 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: be an act rule Japanese word or even a possible 404 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: Japanese word, that that formation does not come together in 405 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: Japanese syllables um. It's also been speculated to have come 406 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: from a Melee word k E C A P. I'm 407 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: not sure how that would have been pronounced. Maybe catch up, However, 408 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: this also seems unlikely. I think among food historians, the 409 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: favorite theory now, as originally put forth by the editors 410 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: of the Oxford English Dictionary UH, seems to be that 411 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: the English word ketchup has Chinese origins, and that it 412 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: really comes from Kate's yap quote, a word from the 413 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: Amoy dialect of Chinese meaning the brine of pickled fish. 414 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: So this would give it a fish origin, though I've 415 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: seen other origins on mission. In a second Smith notes 416 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: that an ethnologist named Terry En de la Cooperie has 417 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: argued that while the word is Chinese, it does not 418 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: appear to have come from the Chinese mainland, and that 419 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: the scholar thinks it more likely emerged from Chinese speakers 420 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: living swhere in Southeast Asia, such as in Vietnam, and 421 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: that the British probably first came into contact with this 422 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: sauce and the name of this sauce somewhere in what 423 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: is today Indonesia. Now, I was also reading about the 424 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: origins of ketchup from the Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and 425 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: Drink in America, and that's from O U P edited 426 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: by Bruce Craig. From the editors there. Oh, also I 427 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: should say that the entry is by Andrew F. Smith, 428 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: yet again apparently just seems to be the ketchup master. 429 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: But this entry is more recent than his book, so 430 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: I would imagine it incorporates, you know, more recent sources 431 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: and scholarship on that the editors here and Smith seemed 432 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: to still be going with the idea of the Chinese 433 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: language origin story for the term ketchup. They think it 434 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: comes from Kate's Yap and it would refer to a 435 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: savory fermented sauce here though they say not made out 436 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: of fish, but made out of soybeans. Um So, I'm 437 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: not sure. There seemed to be these competing theories about 438 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: whether this sauce would have been fish based or soybean based, 439 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: or maybe both, but there does seem to be general 440 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: agreement that this was some kind of very ummi rich 441 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: savory kind of sauce and fermented soybeans in salt or 442 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: brian provide a fantastic savory flavor in many forms. We've 443 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: talked about fish based sauces like garam or whatever, but 444 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: but soybean based sauces are amazing. Of course, soy sauce, 445 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: the ultimate savory condiment, is brewed with soybeans and usually 446 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 1: some kind of roasted grain. But that's not the only one. 447 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: You've also got, for example, miso in Japanese cuisine, which 448 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: is a seasoning, often in the paste form, that gets 449 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: made from fermented soybeans and other varying ingredients like cochi. 450 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: You know this reminds me. You know, you occasionally see 451 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: sort of you know, loose time travel arguments where someone 452 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: will say, hey, if you were able to bring back, 453 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: you know, six machine guns in a time machine and 454 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: go back to the ancient Rome, could you conquer the 455 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: Roman Empire? I think of even more interesting question is 456 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: if you were to bring back like a single um 457 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: uh pattie of spices and sauces from say your local 458 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: Vietnamese restaurants or or Thai restaurant, could you conquer Yeah, 459 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: any empire of the British Empire, or certainly the Roman Empire. 460 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: The Romans were big foodies. They were all about exploring 461 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: new flavors. But if you were to present them with this, uh, 462 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: would you have the upper hand at least until you 463 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: ran out anyway? Yeah, maybe instead you should bring like 464 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: a soy sauce brewery along with you, a few a 465 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: few recipes, secret recipes in code. Yeah. So Smith writes anyway, 466 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: that the British colonists and traders would have come into 467 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: contact with sauces of these kinds, either maybe while in 468 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: China or as we were saying earlier, maybe more likely 469 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: somewhere in Indonesia, and then they tried to duplicate the 470 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: flavor once they came back home, but without access to 471 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: the crucial ingredient, at least in one branch of this 472 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: theory of soybeans. Yeah, I love the idea that they've 473 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: they've brought there, this this precious sauce back with them 474 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: and they've used it up. They've you know, they've they've 475 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: they've they've beat on the butt of the bottle, they've 476 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: they've they've they've they've used their knife to get as 477 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: much out as possible. They they've added hot water and 478 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: shaking it up and then poured the remnants onto their food. 479 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: But now they are out and they must try somehow 480 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: to create it again with the limited resources that they have. 481 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: So it's like people doing the copycat recipes the same way. 482 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: Today you'll find somebody with a blog who's like, here's 483 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: my uh, here's my Chick fil a chicken sandwich recipe. 484 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: You know, they make it home instead of going there. 485 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: That's what they would do with this sauce. And another 486 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I was thinking about this origin 487 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: in Southeast Asian and Indonesia is you mentioned earlier that 488 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: not Geo article by Jasmine Wiggins that it cites as 489 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: an example of an early ketchup recipe in English, a 490 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: recipe published by an author named Richard Bradley in seventeen 491 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: thirty two for something called Ketchup in Haste, which said 492 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: that the sauce came from quote bin cooling in the 493 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: East Indies. And I think this must be referring to 494 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: an area of the of British bin cooling, which is 495 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: spelled differently than it is here in this citation, but 496 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: it would have been pronounced the same. I guess, and 497 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: it's this coastal region of Sumatra around the area of 498 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: today's Bengkulu City, which is of course in the country 499 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: of Indonesia. But anyway, wherever this comes from, it's somewhere 500 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: over there, and the British bring it back to Britain 501 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: and they've they've tasted this awesome savory sauce. It's got 502 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: this salty mommy punch. Maybe it's made out of fish, 503 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: maybe it's made out of soybeans, maybe both, but they 504 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: want to eat it again when they're back home. Like 505 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: you said, they've emptied out the bottle. It's all gone, 506 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: and and you lack a crucial ingredient perhaps maybe you 507 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: know you or you don't know what the crucial ingredients are, 508 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: so you just try to do this copycat. So the 509 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: British traditions actually have plenty of alternative ummmy bomb ingredients 510 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: that they could substitute to try to recreate this flavor. One, 511 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: for example, would be and chovies, another would be oysters, 512 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: another would be mushrooms. Mushrooms are a great umammy rich 513 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: savory ingredient. If you know you want to boost that 514 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: kind of flavor in something, tryading dried mushrooms to it. 515 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: I've also read that they tried kidney beans and walnuts, 516 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: though that's weird. I've never thought of kidney beans or 517 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: walnuts as ummmy rich in flavor, but may mean I 518 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: don't think of them, right, Yeah, And so they used 519 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: all of these ingredients in their various British ketchups. Wiggins 520 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: also points out that Jane Austin, they acclaimed author, is 521 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: said to have been a big fan of mushroom ketchup 522 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: in particular. Uh, but again, most of these ketchups are 523 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: thin and dark, so dismiss any notions of Jane Austen 524 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: nimbly snacking on French fries and bright red ketchup right, No, yeah, 525 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: and probably would have been something closer to like Worcestershire 526 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: sauce or soy sauce, or maybe the English condiment known 527 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: as brown sauce. You know about brown sauce, Robbert And 528 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: now it's like a gravy. Is that what? Because that's 529 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: what I'm imagining. It's kind of like a poutine, uh, 530 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, gravy. No, I mean it's like a type 531 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: of bottled sauce. I mean, actually, I think technically within 532 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: the bounds of what we're talking about historically today, it 533 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: sort of is a ketchup. It's not tomato based. It's 534 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: English brown sauce. There's this brand, I think it's called 535 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: Daddy's Favorite Sauce. It's kind of weird. I think there's 536 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: also HP sauce that might sort of be a brown sauce. 537 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: It's sort of a a tart, savory, fermented kind of sauce. 538 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: It's brown in color, it's got vinegar, it's got spices, um, 539 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: and people put it on, you know, breakfast, like on 540 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: your your full English breakfast daigs and sausage, and I've 541 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: had it, but I have seen brown sauce mentioned. So basically, 542 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: I think brown sauces in line with what would have 543 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: been considered ketchup at this time. By the way, it's 544 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: speaking of French fries, I do want to point out 545 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: that while Jane Austin would not have been having bright 546 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: red tomato ketchup, she could have possibly had French fries 547 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: because Thomas Jefferson was serving them at the White House 548 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: at roughly the same time. Yeah, or something that was 549 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: referred to as potatoes served in the French manner, which 550 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: some commentators have taken to be French franc I mean essentially, uh, 551 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's French fries are a simple concept, um, 552 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: and then once you've had them, you will you want 553 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: to serve them at the highest levels of government. So 554 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: I would love to see a restaurant titled Jane Austin's 555 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: House of Traditional English Ketchups and potatoes serus in the 556 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: French manner. Why does something sound kind of sinister about 557 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: that potatoes served in the French manner? Yeah, it sounds 558 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, potentially um infectious taboo. You know. So I 559 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: hear you like potatoes, but do you like potatoes in 560 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: the French manner? Done? Okay, well we're still so here. 561 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: We've got various things that are referred to as ketchups 562 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: in British cuisine, derived probably from original savory sauces in 563 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: Asian cuisine, made out of all kinds of different stuff, mushrooms, 564 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: oysters and chovies, walnuts, beans, and so how do we 565 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: get from that to the the ketchup that we were 566 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: talking about at the beginning of the episode as being 567 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: considered synonymous with American food, you know, American fast food 568 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: especially well, so British colonists brought their interpretations of ketchup 569 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: with them to America, where the recipe experiments, of course 570 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: continued over the years. It didn't just stop evolving there. 571 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: In Smith notes that beans and apples were tried out 572 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: as major ingredients of ketchup um And of course we 573 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: got to get to the tomato somehow. And here the 574 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: line of connection is getting a lot clearer, because the 575 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: tomato is a new World berry originally cultivated by the 576 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: native peoples of Central and South America. And the tomato 577 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: is also like anchovies, like mushrooms, like the fermented soybeans, 578 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: rich in savory umami flavors. So already we can see 579 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: ketchup as a true product of internet sational trade inspired 580 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: by Asian culinary traditions interpreted by Europeans using the natural 581 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: bounty of the America's. Yeah, and I think it's not 582 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: surprising at all that you start to see tomatoes showing 583 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: up as a main ingredient and ketchup recipes in the 584 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: United States in the early eighteen hundreds. For example, an 585 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: early published recipe for tomato ketchup, maybe the earliest one, 586 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: was written by the American horticulturists and scientist James Mice 587 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: who was living in Philadelphia in the year eighteen twelve, 588 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: and Mice referred to tomatoes in this recipe as love apples, 589 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: which is a term from the French the palm de 590 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: more apparently the apple of love, which is interesting to 591 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: me because it's parallel to the French term for potatoes 592 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: palmed to tear the or the apples of the earth. 593 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: And that makes me wonder, are there other French phrases 594 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: of the just anything that was previously unfamiliar in the 595 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: language is apples of something like Well, especially with the tomato, 596 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: it makes sense, right, You're suddenly presented with this new 597 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: food food. What's your frame of reference for something that 598 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: looks like this? You might turn to the apple and say, oh, 599 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: it's this. It's this strange apple that came from from 600 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: the New World, and it's a it's a it has 601 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: a totally different flavor profile. Let's start cooking with it. 602 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: Of course, then again, I think also in Italian tomatoes pomadoo, 603 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: and I think the origin of that is the is 604 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: golden apple. Yeah, but I do love that the apple 605 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: of love when you have a really good tomato, I 606 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: believe that title is appropriate. Oh absolutely, But what what 607 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: would the French word for peppers be. Pepper is also 608 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: a new world uh crop and genus that brought over 609 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: the capsicum? Would it be apple? Apples of burning? Anyway, 610 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: miss recipe for catchup involved a tomato pulp base, and brandy, 611 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: but did not include common ingredients you'd find today like 612 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: vinegar or sugar. Now, of course, tomatoes naturally have both 613 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: sweetness and acidity, but sugar and vinegar I think are 614 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: used to boost those natural qualities and also for their 615 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: preservative hours. And also, just to be perfectly clear, Messa's 616 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: recipe here would not have been the first tomato based 617 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: sauce by a long shot. I mean people were using 618 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: tomatoes and sauces. It would just be one of the 619 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: first known times that tomato becomes the backbone of a 620 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: sauce that people are calling ketchup right, because I think 621 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: this is more of a modern thing. But I've when 622 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: when you have like alleged pizza sauce um an alleged 623 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: pasta sauce from like a very like fast food oriented 624 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: Italian restaurant. I will not name names, but sometimes they 625 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 1: are provided here in the office, and uh, and I 626 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: tasted and I'm like this is essentially catch up. This 627 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: is not pasta sauce. This is not uh, this is 628 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: this is nothing like spaghetti sauce. This is essentially catch up. 629 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: Nothing says the old Country like noodles boiled for twenty 630 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: five minutes and ketchup and lots of cheese. So at 631 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: this point the stage is set for for for what 632 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: is largely the next phase of food preparation, and that 633 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: industrial food preparation. Of preparation, Yeah, exactly so. Throughout the 634 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, industrial food production and packaging increased, UH, And 635 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: there were multiple types of ketchup sold throughout the United 636 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: States at this point, especially after the Civil War, and 637 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: at this point tomato ketchup was still only one of 638 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: these major varieties of ketchup. But by the end of 639 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, I think at this point the conquest 640 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: of tomato ketchup was complete. So it sort of happened 641 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: over the course of the eighteen hundreds. Uh. The conquest 642 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: was complete in a couple of ways, both in terms 643 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: of becoming the primary variety of ketchup found on tables 644 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: and kitchens was now tomato ketchup, but also in surpassing 645 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: other condiments and sauces in popularity in general, and Smith 646 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: notes that in eighteen nine, an article in the New 647 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: York Tribune called tomato ketchup America's national condiment and referred 648 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 1: to the fact that it was found quote on every 649 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: table in the land. So it sounds like by the 650 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: turn of the twentieth century, tomato ketchup had reached a 651 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: level of popularity close to what it enjoys today in 652 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: the United States, but how it was used at the 653 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: time I think was somewhat different. Smith reports that, in 654 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: line with its traditionally uses up through the turn of 655 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, the main uses for tomato ketchup included, 656 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: quote as an ingredient for savory pies and sauces, and 657 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: to enhance the flavor of meat, poultry, and fish. So 658 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: I think it's more the idea that if your chicken 659 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: is bland, you boost the flavor with some ummmy rich 660 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: tomato ketchup. Or if your gravy is weak, you get 661 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: some ketchup in there and the gravy and it will 662 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: sort of boost the flavor a bit. If your weenies 663 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: are lacking, you just add ketchup and grape jelly and 664 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: cook him up. In a crock pot. What are you 665 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: talking about? Like, that's like that's cocktail leenies, right? That 666 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: really like the rape jelly. I didn't know that that 667 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: was I believe that's the recipe. I remember seeing um 668 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: and sort of being horrified by it. Seems like you'd 669 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: want more ingredients in your your cocktail wheeny sauce. Well, 670 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: do you know about curry? Worse? This German food that's 671 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: it's basically little sausages cut up in catch up with 672 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: curry powder. That's that's basically it. And this is something 673 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: you make or something you purchase in a camp. I 674 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: think it's like a German kind of fast food. I 675 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: don't want to slander German cuisine, but well, I mean 676 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: curry has is certainly another one of those flavors, flavor 677 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: profiles that has conquered the world, becoming of basically curries, 678 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: uh have become an essential part of English cuisine. Curries 679 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: have become a very popular part of modern Japanese cuisine. 680 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: Uh and and curry can be found, you know, throughout 681 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: the United States in various cuisines. So you go into 682 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 1: a traditional English chip shop, you'll find it. You know, 683 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: you can get the tartar sauce, or you can get 684 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: the curry sauce and a lot of them. So basically 685 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: what you're getting at, though, is that the use of 686 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: ketchup at the time was was more as as a 687 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: catch all sauce and ingredients sauce. Yeah. Uh, And so 688 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: I think it was later in the twentieth since that 689 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: ketch up became most associated with what Smith calls it's 690 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: three major host food. Can you guess what these are? Well, 691 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: we've already touched on French fries, right and um, I 692 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: mean the other big one that comes to mind is, 693 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: of course the fast food hamburger. Of course, there you go, 694 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Of course. The third one is the 695 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: hot dog. This is controversial, and on one hand, I 696 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: don't want to be that jerk that tells other people 697 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: what to eat or how to eat, except right now. 698 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: I always get that feeling about this one topic in particular, 699 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: which is that if you're gonna eat a hot dog, 700 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: hot dog has a very natural, heavenly soul mate and 701 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 1: that soul made is mustard. Ketch Up on hot dogs 702 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 1: seems like a strange betrayal to me. Yeah, well, I don't, 703 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't have a real firm opinion. When 704 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: I have a veggie dog these days, I tend to 705 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: have mustard. Yeah, I tend to put sauer Kraud on it. 706 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: Souer Krowd's a great choice. And I also like a 707 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: little horse radish That seems stranger, but I'd be willing 708 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: to try that. I've gotten to where I like horse 709 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: radish on just about anything, like it's a good uh, 710 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: it's a good good way to like spice it up 711 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: and make sure I get that that blasting moment like 712 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: like what I kind of poisoned myself where I don't 713 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: know which bite it's going to be, but I know 714 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: one of the bites I take of this veggie dog 715 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: is going to make me go blind for a second. Well, 716 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: I like that. I like the sound of that. Also, though, 717 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 1: have you ever had horse radish on smoked fish based spreads, 718 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: like on a like a smoked trout or or or 719 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: like a baked salmon kind of spread. I don't know 720 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: that I have. I mean, obviously I've had like the 721 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: wasabi uh in in sushi, which you know that that's 722 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: an example of the horse radish e type flavor going 723 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: you know super well with with with fish flavors, so 724 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: I imagine it would be amazing. It's very good. The 725 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: local restaurant here in town, the General Mirror, is kind 726 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: of like a New York Deli style place. They do 727 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: like a baked salmon spread with horse radish on tops. Delicious. 728 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: Speaking of putting sauer Kraut on dogs, though, I bet 729 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: other traditions that are similar to Sauer Kraut, I would 730 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: say kimchi would be amazing. A hot dog, absolutely, yeah, 731 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: kim chee is good on everything. But anyway, I guess 732 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: one thing that we should realize from this history is 733 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: that if there's one feature we most often think of 734 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: as necessary for Ketchup, it probably is that it's a 735 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,879 Speaker 1: tomato based sauce. And this is just historically not the case. Uh. 736 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: It's tomato based. Ketchup is a particularly popular variety of 737 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: ketchup that achieved dominance over time. Now, we were already 738 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: alluding to them earlier, but when you talk about Ketchup, 739 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: you've got to talk about one big brand name, right. Uh. 740 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: There're originally tons of different producers of Ketchup in general, 741 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: and Tomato Ketchup specifically in the United States and in Britain. 742 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: But in the early twentieth century, one company established itself 743 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: as sort of the big troll in the arena, you know, 744 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: the dominant player in tomato ketchup manufacturing and sales, and 745 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: of course that was the Hines Company, Right. Yeah, this 746 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: is one of those situations where you might think, oh, well, 747 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 1: we just think of Hines because they're the mature company today. 748 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: But you know, it's like, it's impossible to separate the 749 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: history of ketchup from the separate from the history of Hines. 750 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 1: Um Historian Gabriella Patrick points out that during the eighteen hundreds, 751 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: when Hines, uh, the Hines Company, you know, came to life, 752 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: ketchup was made out of all the aforementioned ingredients, uh, 753 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, from the the anchovies to the mushrooms, but 754 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: also grapes. That was an additional ingredient they included here. 755 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: Uh she included here. So it's it's you know, also 756 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: important to note that up until until Hines, this was 757 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: not something you just, you know, exclusively boughted a store. 758 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: Ketch Up was something that was also just made in 759 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: the home and it you know, and it was no 760 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: matter what the ingredients generally more of a watery substance. 761 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: You know, this, this idea of like the thick catchup 762 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: is is largely a product of of Hines and and 763 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: we can largely look to Hines as the as the 764 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: originator of this characteristic and they would go on to 765 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: make a big deal about that thickness. I want to 766 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: talk about that in a bit. So Hines focused in 767 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: on tomato, sauce, sugar, vinegar, and spices, and then they 768 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: made it thick. They made it as thick as you're 769 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: probably accustomed to, thick in a way that it wasn't 770 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: made in the home, and thick in a way that 771 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: certainly lends itself to certain usages h that you know, 772 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to get out of just you know, 773 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: this watery substance. Yeah, it would be less appealing probably 774 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: to say squired on top of a hot dog like 775 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: it's watery. It would just kind of like soak into 776 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 1: the bun maybe, but yeah, or to or to dip 777 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: fries in for that matter. Um So it's J. Hines 778 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: company had existed for decades and they've been selling tomato 779 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: ketchup since eighteen seventy three, and Hines remained the largest 780 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: producer of ketchup throughout the twentieth century, it was flanked 781 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: by competitors like Hunts and del Monte. One interesting historical intersection, 782 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,919 Speaker 1: I thought is between the Hinz Company and a book 783 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: that I was talking about in our summer reading episode 784 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blew Your Mind recently, uh and that 785 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,439 Speaker 1: that concerns the push for pure food and drug laws 786 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: in the United States by the chemist Harvey Washington Wiley 787 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: and others. Uh So, in nineteen o six, when the U. 788 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: S Congress passed the Pure Food and Drug Act, a 789 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: lot of industrial food producers would have been using preservatives 790 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: like formaldehyde and borax and stuff stuff that that Wiley 791 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: was very against. And one major beneficiary of this act 792 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: apparently was hind Since I was reading a New York 793 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: Times article that mentions that they had a method to 794 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: sterilize and bottle ketchup at scale without the use of 795 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,759 Speaker 1: toxic preservatives, and because they already had this method at 796 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: a plant, I believe it was in Pennsylvania, um that 797 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: they benefited from the passage of this law. All Right, 798 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick break, 799 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we will continue our discussion 800 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: of what is essentially the modern history of ketch up. 801 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: All right, we're act So we've been talking about how 802 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: in a way, tomato ketchup is already something that has 803 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: a global culinary history. It came from Asian cuisine originally, 804 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: and then was something that British cooks tried to recreate 805 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: and then spread to America had tomatoes incorporated. But today 806 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: tomato ketchup is not just a regional favorite condiment. It 807 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: is a huge global manufacturing success. It spread to countries 808 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 1: all over the world, especially alongside fast food franchises. And 809 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: Andrew F. Smith notes that as of Americans purchased ten 810 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: billion ounces of ketchup every year, which works out to 811 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: about three full bottles for every person in the country. 812 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: That's a lot of ketchup. That is that that is 813 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,839 Speaker 1: that's more than my household be well, that's that's more 814 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: than my households, you know, purchase of ketchup bottles. But 815 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: I don't know when you start looking at ketchup consumed elsewhere, 816 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: maybe and maybe it is accurate, I'm not sure. Yeah, 817 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: for for the whole world and not just a mirror 818 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 1: a sales top eight hundred and forty million fourteen ounce 819 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: bottles a year. Uh. The Hinz company alone claims that 820 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: they sell six hundred and fifty million bottles of Ketchup 821 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: a year. And they also claim, in addition to that, 822 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: to sell eleven billion single serve plastic packets of Ketchup 823 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: every year. That means about one point five Ketchup packets 824 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: per human on Earth. Now, another fact about Hinz Ketchup specifically, 825 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 1: we're all familiar with the Hinz Ketchup bottle, the glass 826 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: bottle that's on the table at the restaurant. If you've 827 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: ever fought the battle of reology against the slow pouring 828 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: Ketchup stuck up in a in a glass Hines bottle. 829 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: Apparently we were alluding to this earlier. The slow poor 830 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: of Hinz Ketchup is something Hinz used to specifically boast 831 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: about in ads for their product, resting on the logic 832 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: that a thick, slow pouring Ketchup was you know, it's 833 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: higher quality. It means it's made for more tomatoes. The 834 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: interesting I could see how that messaging would stick to 835 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: the you know the variance of the thick Ketchup. I mean, 836 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 1: they've really got ads about it. I've got a link 837 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: to one in here that's an old TV out of 838 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: there is that's got this like jazz music playing, and 839 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: they say, like for the slow poor I don't know 840 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: if they were, like, were there fast pouring ketchups at 841 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: the time that just didn't make the cut over. I'm 842 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: guessing like your watery or ketchups, you know, the more 843 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: essentially more traditional ketchups are coming out as a as 844 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,919 Speaker 1: a water um or also maybe it's a I wonder 845 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 1: if there were cases where restaurants were cutting their ketch 846 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: up with water. Yeah, that could be true. I wonder 847 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: if some still do that. But so there was a 848 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,240 Speaker 1: claim made directly by the Hinz company that I found 849 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: recently that they apparently still enforced slow poor is one 850 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: of the quality control metrics of their ketchup. Quote ketchup 851 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: exits the iconic glass bottle at point zero to eight 852 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: miles per hour. If the viscosity of the ketchup is 853 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,280 Speaker 1: greater than the speed, the ketchup is rejected for sale. 854 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: So this excited to about two point four six ft 855 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: per minute or about one point to five centimeters per second. 856 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: So they claim they reject a batch if it flows 857 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: faster than that, but what if it flows slower? Also, 858 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: at what temperature? So many reeology questions about Ketchup. Well, 859 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: I I I imagine these are insider details that that 860 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: the ketchup testers would be privy to. But here's the thing. 861 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: What happens and we've all had this experience or well, 862 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 1: I don't know if everyone does, because now we have 863 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: so many score bottles of Ketchup, But I I feel 864 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: like a lot of that that experience where you're trying 865 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: to get the catchup out of the bottle and it 866 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 1: won't come out. What are you supposed to do? Yeah, 867 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: Hines claims, if you're trying to get the ketchup out 868 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: of the glass bottle and it's stuck, the best method 869 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 1: to get it flowing is to apply a firm tap 870 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: to the spot on the neck of the bottle where 871 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 1: there's there was a number fifty seven embossed on the glass. Now, 872 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,919 Speaker 1: I was looking at an article here that that also 873 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: deals with the the the inside business of ketchup production 874 00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: at hinz uh npr is All things considered ran a 875 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: great story just earlier this year titled Meet the Man 876 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,399 Speaker 1: who Guards America America's Ketchup by by Dan Charles. He's 877 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: like the Night at the end of the last crusade. 878 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: You know who's their stint is I have waited for 879 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 1: you to come and take the ketchup recipe, but you 880 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: must be worthy, yes, And that that individual is uh 881 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: kraft Heinz ketchup Master. That's his title, Hector azorn No 882 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,399 Speaker 1: and that's what that's who. The story deals with profiles 883 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,720 Speaker 1: and it's a wonderful look at the modern state of ketchup. 884 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: In Hinds global approach to catch up, um so as 885 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,440 Speaker 1: No points out that their ketchups taste has remained constant. 886 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: The Hinds taste has remained constant, but the exact recipe 887 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,759 Speaker 1: differs from market to market and this becomes This became 888 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: an issue a few years ago, apparently, as they had 889 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 1: to come up with a recipe to satisfy all of Europe, 890 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 1: despite the fact that Germans prefer a ketchup with more 891 00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: of a vinegary taste and the British prefer of hip 892 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 1: with more of a spicy taste. And while uh osor 893 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: No doesn't spill any secrets, he points out that the 894 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 1: American recipe had to change at one point in the 895 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: recent past to reflect shifts in well, he's not very 896 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,720 Speaker 1: specific shifts in flavor, shifts in ingredients. Yeah, it sounds 897 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: like there was a recipe change in order to course 898 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,280 Speaker 1: correct after some unintended shift in flavor of the American 899 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: version over time. And I wonder what that would be. 900 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: I mean, if they weren't changing the ingredients, but the 901 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: flavor of the ketchup was changing, I would have to 902 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,600 Speaker 1: think that would be due to the changing flavor of 903 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: the tomatoes that were going into it, because you wouldn't 904 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: expect like the vinegar or the sugar or anything to 905 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: be changing flavor. Yeah, and tomato crops are certainly susceptible 906 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: to a number of factors, and ultimately their flavor is 907 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: is subject to these factors, and then includes emerging diseases, 908 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,800 Speaker 1: nitrogen rates, and of course climate. And then you have 909 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 1: post harvest decisions as well regarding storage and transport that 910 00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: could contentially factor into it. I mean, it's it's easy 911 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,360 Speaker 1: to think about the simplicity of Ketchup, but it's certainly 912 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,400 Speaker 1: when you're talking about a massive company creating Ketchup for 913 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: the world, that is a complex operation with a lot 914 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: of moving parts. And and so it's no surprise that 915 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 1: Hines really impacted American commercial agriculture and food processing in general. Uh, 916 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,799 Speaker 1: there's a there's an article on smithsonian dot com from 917 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,720 Speaker 1: by Amy Bentley titled how ketchup revolutionized how food has grown, processed, 918 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,839 Speaker 1: and regulated from and I want to read a quick 919 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: quote from it. Quote Innovations and tomato breeding and mechanical 920 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 1: harvester technologies, driven in part by demand for the condiment, 921 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: helped define modern industrial agriculture. In the nineteen sixties. You see, 922 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:48,520 Speaker 1: data scientists developed a mechanical tomato harvester around the same time, 923 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,320 Speaker 1: plant geneticists perfected a tomato with a thick skin and 924 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: a round shape that could withstand machine harvesting and truck transport. 925 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,480 Speaker 1: This new tomato was arguably short on taste, but the 926 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: perfect storm of breeding and harvesting technology from which it 927 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: emerged allowed for a steady supply of tomatoes that kept 928 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,360 Speaker 1: bottlers and canners and business. Nearly all of the tomatoes 929 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: produced for sauces and ketchup are products of this moment, 930 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 1: as are many other fruits and vegetables produced in the US. 931 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: So think about that. The invention of Hinds tomato ketchup 932 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 1: by food scientists lead to essentially the reinvention of the 933 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: tomato itself. Yeah, and you see this come through. I mean, 934 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: have you ever wondered why if you get a tomato 935 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,919 Speaker 1: with the grocery store it tastes nothing like a really 936 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,160 Speaker 1: amazing heirloom tomato grown in a garden or by you know, 937 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:44,320 Speaker 1: by a small farmer or something like. The garden tomato 938 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: has so much more flavor. It's it's unbelievable the difference. 939 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that has to do 940 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 1: with facts about what kinds of you know, what is 941 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,759 Speaker 1: selected for when you're creating a grocery store tomato, which 942 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,719 Speaker 1: is probably similar to and in streel tomato. It's tomatoes 943 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: that have to be able to survive the harvesting and 944 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: transport process and then be appealing in whatever form they're 945 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,600 Speaker 1: they're sold. And so, for example, like tomatoes you buy 946 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: the grocery store are probably a big thing that's being 947 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: selected for in the breeding process. Is just them not 948 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: getting crushed in being harvested in shipped to the store. Yeah, 949 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: So if you have given up on tomatoes, you think 950 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,360 Speaker 1: you don't like tomatoes, and you're basing that mostly on 951 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,239 Speaker 1: grocery store tomatoes, then you really should try. You have 952 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, you have the opportunity to, you know, try 953 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 1: an heirloom tomato, try a farmer's market tomato and uh 954 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 1: and and see if that doesn't give you something a 955 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,520 Speaker 1: little different. I will say, also a very good compromise 956 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 1: if you you know, a lot of people don't have 957 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,320 Speaker 1: they can't make it out to the farmer's market, or 958 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,120 Speaker 1: it's not the right time of year or whatever. If 959 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:55,320 Speaker 1: you're looking for a compromise, try cherry tomatoes, a little 960 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: grape tomatoes. I think those tend to be the best 961 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,480 Speaker 1: variety of tomato that you can get at a large 962 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: scale grocery store. So, speaking of grocery stores today, hind 963 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 1: cells about seventy of America's ketchup and yes the product 964 00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,360 Speaker 1: is largely a monolith. But but they and other ketchup 965 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: makers have shaken things up. They've experimented with new concepts, 966 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,399 Speaker 1: and a big part of this is that the very 967 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: international world that catch Up emerged from has kind of 968 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: come back to challenge it in some ways. Um, you know, 969 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,920 Speaker 1: they're you know and in some cases that these products 970 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,600 Speaker 1: are very ketch up like in their profile. I mean, 971 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:33,759 Speaker 1: consider a Blessed Siracha sauce or holy uh gocha jong 972 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 1: sauce the Korean ketchup like sauce. I love guchu jong. 973 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,480 Speaker 1: I love it. Yes, it's it's it's so good. I've 974 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,960 Speaker 1: been using it. And I started off, of course, just 975 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 1: using it, you know, like on a beben bob kind 976 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:48,719 Speaker 1: of a bowl, But now I keep using it on 977 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,239 Speaker 1: things that, uh, that are not even necessarily Korean, just 978 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: because it's just it's so good and and it is 979 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,520 Speaker 1: kind of like Korean catchup. In fact, if you do 980 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: an Amazon search for quote Korean catchup, you will bring 981 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,160 Speaker 1: up tons of goguchan uh and as well as a 982 00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,560 Speaker 1: sponsored hynds at at the very top. You know, here, 983 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: here's one good thing you can make in your home. 984 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,960 Speaker 1: If you want something really exciting to dip your tater 985 00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,680 Speaker 1: tots in or whatever, just make yourself some go chu 986 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,640 Speaker 1: jong mannaise. Yeah, mix it up together. And then there 987 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: are also changes to what you know and what we 988 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,920 Speaker 1: want out of ingredients in our processed foods. So I 989 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: feel like when I was a kid, you know, you're 990 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: pretty much guaranteed that your your hinds catch up or 991 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,239 Speaker 1: your any kind of catchup you would buy off the 992 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,400 Speaker 1: shelf was probably gonna have high fruit dose, corns are 993 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,920 Speaker 1: up in it, and uh, you know, the consumer demands 994 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,640 Speaker 1: have shifted in many ways away from that. So just 995 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: a qui quick glance at high at the Hinds website, 996 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,280 Speaker 1: you'll see that they have a number of varieties available. 997 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,520 Speaker 1: You can get your no salt added, you know, sugar added, 998 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: you're organic, you're simply catch up, which is a no 999 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,440 Speaker 1: GMO ingredients, no high fruits, corns or version of the product. 1000 00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,799 Speaker 1: They have a honey and reduced sugar sweetened version. They 1001 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:03,080 Speaker 1: have an added veggie version that is percent added veggies 1002 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 1: they claim with carrots and butternut squash um, which is 1003 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: in right, getting away from the idea of just tomatoes, 1004 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,799 Speaker 1: will be sneaking some other vegetables in there. And then 1005 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:16,760 Speaker 1: they also have hot and spicy jalapeno and siracha tomato ketchup? 1006 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 1: Do they make one out of oysters and walnuts and mushrooms? 1007 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,600 Speaker 1: Not yet, but who knows, you know, maybe like the 1008 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,319 Speaker 1: Heinz Britain will be will be the next big brand 1009 00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: and school ketchup. Yeah, and then of course there are 1010 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:34,279 Speaker 1: those ketchup slices we mentioned earlier. I'm sorry, I shouldn't, hey, 1011 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure they're fine. I would try I have just 1012 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,319 Speaker 1: had not I've not had the opportunity to try one. Now. 1013 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 1: In terms of the future of Ketchup, well, I mean 1014 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,520 Speaker 1: it's hard to predict everything with ketchup. I mean, look 1015 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: at the robot catchers see cyborg catchip, nano ketch failing. Yeah. Well, 1016 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: we've already taken ketchup, as well as mustard in various 1017 00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:01,960 Speaker 1: other condiments into space, uh, into you know, lo g environments, 1018 00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,080 Speaker 1: orbital environments and uh and it really makes sense because 1019 00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:06,880 Speaker 1: it takes salt and pepper. For instance, you can have 1020 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: salt and pepper on your food in space, but it 1021 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,360 Speaker 1: has to be in the liquid form. You can't have 1022 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,640 Speaker 1: a you can't have a grind your own pepper and space. Yeah, 1023 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,480 Speaker 1: it would be it would be a risk to the environment, 1024 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, to the machinery. You might never have thought 1025 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,480 Speaker 1: about this as one of the weird things about eating 1026 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,160 Speaker 1: food in space, but food does not fall in space. 1027 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,239 Speaker 1: So like, you can't put something on your food by 1028 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: like just dumping it out on top liquids. You have 1029 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,920 Speaker 1: to get them to adhere to your food if you 1030 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,960 Speaker 1: want them to stick. And therefore a thick catchup is 1031 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: ideal for a log or zero G environment. I mean 1032 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:50,040 Speaker 1: in a in a sense, catch up uh was destined 1033 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:54,680 Speaker 1: to go into space. It foretold space travel in sum respects. 1034 00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,040 Speaker 1: So it's it's reasonable to assume ketchup will continue to 1035 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,480 Speaker 1: follow us into space and to other planets even and 1036 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,799 Speaker 1: to flavor the spice milage. Yeah, However, here on Earth, Uh, 1037 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, we're dealing with challenges here, you know, different challenges, 1038 00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,919 Speaker 1: you know, but challenges such as a changing climate warming Earth, 1039 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,360 Speaker 1: and so companies like hinzuh and and and other and 1040 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,000 Speaker 1: really have any major agricultural group or having to turn 1041 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,720 Speaker 1: to sustainability efforts to deal with it. And then there 1042 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,000 Speaker 1: and then their additional sustainability efforts that uh, that others 1043 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,760 Speaker 1: are urging them to take on. I was looking at 1044 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,120 Speaker 1: how climate change is impacting an American icon hines Ketchup, 1045 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: which was from Harvard Business Schools HBS Digital Initiative from 1046 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,400 Speaker 1: and basically it discusses how ketchup depends on tomatoes, and 1047 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,440 Speaker 1: tomatoes are subject to crop shortages and uh the resulting 1048 00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,440 Speaker 1: increased costs as well as the challenges of decreased water availability. 1049 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,720 Speaker 1: So basically they point out, yeah, Companies like Hins have 1050 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 1: a number of sustainable sustainability initiatives already in place, and 1051 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,400 Speaker 1: they can stand to uh take a few more, uh 1052 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,560 Speaker 1: in order to safeguard the world's you know, catch up 1053 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,640 Speaker 1: reserves for a future that is going to deal with, 1054 00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, a rapidly changing climate. I can imagine global 1055 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:21,080 Speaker 1: catch up shortages having uh profound negative effects. Yeah. Now 1056 00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,880 Speaker 1: in terms of flavor, though, I don't know, it's kind 1057 00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,240 Speaker 1: of kind we already see, uh, you know, a diversification 1058 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,640 Speaker 1: of ketchup to a certain extent. You know, I mentioned 1059 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,400 Speaker 1: the examples from the Hinds website, So I don't know. 1060 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:39,440 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll see, Maybe we'll see you know, more savory catchups, 1061 00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,320 Speaker 1: maybe return of more vinegar based catch ups. Maybe those 1062 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,960 Speaker 1: will become more trendy. Let's see what's gonna be made 1063 00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 1: more abundant climate change, Maybe algae algae based catch up. 1064 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,480 Speaker 1: But also another thing to keep in mind is if 1065 00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,480 Speaker 1: if we're talking about like changes in you know, the 1066 00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,480 Speaker 1: foods that we have available to ourselves as we're forced 1067 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:04,720 Speaker 1: to consider, say more insect based protein sources, like that 1068 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,040 Speaker 1: sounds like a place for ketchup if you ask me, 1069 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,120 Speaker 1: you know, um, well, in in getting picky kids used 1070 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,960 Speaker 1: to new foods. They they say, ketchup can be helpful. 1071 00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 1: And so maybe if the adults of America are the 1072 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,280 Speaker 1: picky kids you're trying to get used to intom feje uh, 1073 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,800 Speaker 1: ketchup could play a role there. Yeah, I mean thinking 1074 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,800 Speaker 1: if you're if you're if I say in the future, 1075 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to eat more bugs, and you think, oh, well, 1076 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,280 Speaker 1: then let me rephrase that in the future, we'll have 1077 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,960 Speaker 1: to eat more bugs with ketchup. In the future there 1078 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,880 Speaker 1: will be various protein based shapes that you can dip 1079 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,400 Speaker 1: in ketchup. Yeah, I mean that sounds fine. I mean 1080 00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,960 Speaker 1: that's basically what we have now at most. This is 1081 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 1: always my argument for um, certainly imitation meats, but also 1082 00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:54,560 Speaker 1: for insect based protein uh substances, is that we already 1083 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:58,640 Speaker 1: have a situation where the meat has a very ambiguous flavor, 1084 00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,120 Speaker 1: if it even has a flavor at all, and then 1085 01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,240 Speaker 1: we're depending so heavily on the fact that it's fried, 1086 01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,200 Speaker 1: on the fact that it's then dipped and catch up 1087 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:10,200 Speaker 1: or you know, some other sauce but probably catch up. 1088 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,960 Speaker 1: Then you know, why why not have a more sustainable 1089 01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,360 Speaker 1: substance at the heart of that why does the why 1090 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 1: is the burger? And then many of these cases need 1091 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: to be made from a cow, given the environmental costs 1092 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,439 Speaker 1: all of that cow, when it could be it could 1093 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: be anything, because the burger, the fast food burger, just 1094 01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,240 Speaker 1: really does not depend upon the flavor of the patty. 1095 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,160 Speaker 1: Say hello to the cricket, Big Mac. Yeah. And really 1096 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,160 Speaker 1: this gets back to the the the ancient history of 1097 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,160 Speaker 1: the sauce. Thinking of the sauce not so much as 1098 01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,120 Speaker 1: this luxury, as this thing that makes a nice thing nicer, 1099 01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,920 Speaker 1: but perhaps the thing that can make an unpleasant thing edible, 1100 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, or or you know, something that is going 1101 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,200 Speaker 1: to add not just a fun spice, but a necessary 1102 01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,320 Speaker 1: spice to life. All right. So there you have it, 1103 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:01,240 Speaker 1: the invention of catch up now obvious slee Uh. We'd 1104 01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,560 Speaker 1: love to hear from listeners about this episode because most 1105 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,120 Speaker 1: of you have probably had ketchup and uh and and 1106 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,760 Speaker 1: many of you have been exposed to perhaps strange users 1107 01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,160 Speaker 1: of ketchup in your own life, or you've traveled around 1108 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,400 Speaker 1: and you've got to try. Maybe you have some experience 1109 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,120 Speaker 1: sampling ketchups in different markets, in different countries. I want 1110 01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,640 Speaker 1: to hear from the people who have never had ketchup. 1111 01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,680 Speaker 1: I never tried it one right in. I don't know 1112 01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:26,440 Speaker 1: if that's possible. I would love to hear from that 1113 01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,960 Speaker 1: human being. Um, but I will be surprised when we 1114 01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,240 Speaker 1: actually hear from them. In the meantime, if you want 1115 01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,880 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Invention, head on over 1116 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,440 Speaker 1: to invention pod dot com. And yeah they're some of 1117 01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,600 Speaker 1: these are food based, but we have most for more 1118 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,600 Speaker 1: technology based. Though, as we've discussed here, you cannot discuss 1119 01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:47,920 Speaker 1: the history of food without discussing the history of technology. 1120 01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:52,520 Speaker 1: Food preparation is a human technology. Food is technology. Is 1121 01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,040 Speaker 1: not not technology just because you eat it. Yeah, well, 1122 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,400 Speaker 1: I mean it's the product of technology at least I 1123 01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,640 Speaker 1: don't know. Uh, depends how you a part of the terms. 1124 01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:02,680 Speaker 1: But at any rate, we've had a we've had a 1125 01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 1: few food related topics. So we have the episode on 1126 01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:09,760 Speaker 1: shop sticks, of course, on pooping automata, yeah yeah, and 1127 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,880 Speaker 1: I imagine we'll return to do other food based topics 1128 01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,880 Speaker 1: in the future. We did bread and toast. Bread and toast, yes, 1129 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,920 Speaker 1: another key key advancement in human culinary technology, and now 1130 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,680 Speaker 1: we have catch up to put on top of that. Um. 1131 01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:25,960 Speaker 1: But Hey, if you want to support this show, the 1132 01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,080 Speaker 1: best thing you can do is make sure you have subscribed, 1133 01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,000 Speaker 1: and wherever you get the show, make sure you have 1134 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: rated and reviewed it, because that helps us out as well. 1135 01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:37,480 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 1136 01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:40,040 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 1137 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,160 Speaker 1: with us to let us know feedback on this episode 1138 01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,480 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 1139 01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,600 Speaker 1: to let us know that you've never once tried catchup, 1140 01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:49,800 Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at 1141 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:57,720 Speaker 1: contact at invention pod dot com. Invention is production of 1142 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,439 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 1143 01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,960 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1144 01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:09,160 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. H