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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of sexual assault. Listener discussion is advised.

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Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family Secrets, the secrets

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Speaker 2: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others,

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Speaker 2: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. My guest today

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Speaker 2: is Susan Walter, screenwriter, director, and novelist. Susan's is a

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Speaker 2: story about the legacy of secrets, the long reach of

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Speaker 2: familial silence, and the healing that becomes possible if we

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Speaker 2: stay true to ourselves in the fullness of time.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in this dusty brick

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Speaker 3: colonial big house, kind of built long before open floor

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Speaker 3: plans were all the rage. When I think about my

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Speaker 3: childhood home, I remember a lot of greenery outside the home,

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Speaker 3: and inside the home, I remember a lot of closed doors. Well,

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Speaker 3: they all had our own rooms, set our own bathrooms.

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Speaker 3: I mean even my parents had their own room. My

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Speaker 3: mom's room had this big, king sized bed and a

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Speaker 3: walking closet, and my dad's room had a couch and

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Speaker 3: a TV and its own closet and on sweet bap.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember many things about those rooms. Because the

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Speaker 3: doors were always closed.

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Speaker 1: You know, when we think.

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Speaker 3: About our childhood, sometimes the core memories are the scarier ones.

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Speaker 3: And I lived in this beautiful, lush, green neighborhood with

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Speaker 3: these old houses from the thirties and forties. But inside

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Speaker 3: that house it felt very empty and lonely.

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Speaker 2: And it was your parents, and your older brother and yourself.

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Speaker 2: It was the four of you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the four of us lived on a quiet street

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Speaker 3: across from an ambassador and the chef Julia Child lived

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Speaker 3: around the corner. It was a very gorgeous neighborhood, two

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Speaker 3: blocks from Harvard University, and ideal it in so many

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Speaker 3: ways from the outside looking in. My father was from

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Speaker 3: a working class family in Roxbury, Massachusetts, which is the

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Speaker 3: area of Boston that at the time was pretty working

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Speaker 3: class South Boston Southeast. Name is Mark Wahlberg, and his

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Speaker 3: father cleaned oil tankers for a living. And my dad

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Speaker 3: grew up kind of with a chip on his shoulder.

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Speaker 3: He was very ambitious. He went to the University of Michigan,

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Speaker 3: where he got a pilot's license and learned how to

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Speaker 3: fly planes.

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Speaker 1: When he graduated, he got a.

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Speaker 3: Motorcycle, and he built motorcycles, and he pretended he was

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Speaker 3: racing motorcycles. He got all the geared, he rolled them

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Speaker 3: around Boston like some sort of ninja. He was just

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Speaker 3: this larger than life guy. He started his own business

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Speaker 3: at a very young age. I think he was in

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Speaker 3: his early twenties, so even before my parents were married.

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Speaker 1: He was just a risk taker.

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Speaker 3: And I grew up in sort of his mystique that

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Speaker 3: this was a guy who was not afraid of anything,

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Speaker 3: who would ride his motorcycle really fast on store drive.

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Speaker 3: And he took a job actually flying planes that people

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Speaker 3: jumped out of, So I don't know what that's technically called,

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Speaker 3: but he piloted these planes with people jumping out of

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Speaker 3: them and in sometimes scary conditions.

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Speaker 1: He was just afraid of nothing.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing about my dad that I actually

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Speaker 3: thought at the time was a good thing was he

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Speaker 3: was never satisfied. He always wanted more and more and more.

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Speaker 3: And I kind of took that on and I thought

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Speaker 3: that was a good thing. And now I'm not so

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Speaker 3: sure that it is.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like he was very charismatic. What was he

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Speaker 2: like with you when you were a kid growing up?

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was so fun you know, well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, he was not around all the time. He

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Speaker 1: traveled a lot for his budding business.

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Speaker 3: So when he came into town, it was like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I got Celtics tickets. We're going to sit on the

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Speaker 3: floor of the garden. Come on, let's go. And we

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Speaker 3: went to see the Red Sox. Like he was like

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Speaker 3: the fun dad. I felt like he was a person

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Speaker 3: who could do no wrong. Everybody wanted to talk to him.

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Speaker 3: We went to this supermarket and the checker would give

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Speaker 3: him a free pack of gum for his daughter. We

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Speaker 3: went to basket Robins. He always got an extra scoop.

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Speaker 3: He wasn't necessarily what you would consider like a handsome guy.

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Speaker 3: He just had this charisma and people responded to it

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Speaker 3: and I was under its spell.

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Speaker 2: And in your community, and like in this Cambridge community

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Speaker 2: with neighbors that were famous shifts and writers and ambassadors,

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Speaker 2: was your family sort of part of a community in

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Speaker 2: Cambridge like that in your neighborhood or were you more

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Speaker 2: of a solitary organism as a family.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's such an interesting question.

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Speaker 3: I would say, in our neighborhood full of these very

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Speaker 3: fancy people with PhDs and part of like the Harvard Gestalt,

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Speaker 3: we were the.

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Speaker 1: Blue collar family.

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Speaker 3: You know, my mom was getting a degree at Harvard

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Speaker 3: and on the edge to that community, and my dad

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Speaker 3: was a bit of an outsider. He had a Boston

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Speaker 3: accent and he was kind of a towny, and so

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Speaker 3: we moved into this neighborhood with old money. But there

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Speaker 3: are things that money can't buy. We were not the

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Speaker 3: cool kids in the neighborhood. And I don't know if

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Speaker 3: he felt that or he had a chip on his shoulder,

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Speaker 3: but you know, I was sort of being groomed to

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Speaker 3: try to join this high society, but I didn't really

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Speaker 3: get it.

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Speaker 1: They put a violin under my chin when I was

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Speaker 1: four years old. I didn't play sports.

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Speaker 3: I played the violin so that I could integrate into

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Speaker 3: this community. And I always felt like they had dreams

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Speaker 3: for my brother and me to earn our place in

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Speaker 3: that neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know that I ever did.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that's why they chose that neighborhood. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I would imagine. I mean, he was a Boston boy,

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Speaker 2: but there were lots of choices that didn't necessarily have

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Speaker 2: to be the kind of patrician Cambridge Harvard adjacent choice.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think they chose to settle there, that's

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Speaker 2: a great question.

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Speaker 3: I think he chose it in large heart for my

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Speaker 3: mom because my mom wanted to be close to Harvard

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Speaker 3: because she was getting a PhD there. I don't know

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Speaker 3: that he was ever super connected to that neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: In a way, it might have.

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Speaker 3: Been a consolation prize for her because he was gone

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Speaker 3: a lot, and he had his own community outside of Cambridge.

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Speaker 1: He had his flying buddies.

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Speaker 3: He was always jetting off to kip Cod and Martha's

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Speaker 3: Vineyard and Nantucket.

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Speaker 1: He had his own life outside of that.

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Speaker 3: So I think my mom got to be around what

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Speaker 3: she was trying to create a community of peers, and

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Speaker 3: it made sense.

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Speaker 1: But in the meantime, I didn't see a lot of him.

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Speaker 3: He was gone many weekends on business, so you know,

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Speaker 3: we were alone, my mother, my brother and me in

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Speaker 3: that big Cambridge house sometimes weeks on end. My mother,

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Speaker 3: her family, she's one hundred percent finish. Her family comes

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Speaker 3: from the Upper Peninsula in Michigan. She grew up strict

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Speaker 3: Lutheran on a farm. She's the oldest of five. They're

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Speaker 3: sort of a tight lipped family.

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Speaker 1: There's been drinking and drug abuse among her siblings. Her

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Speaker 1: father passed away at a.

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Speaker 3: Young age, and I think as the oldest of five,

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Speaker 3: she had to take on a lot of responsibility.

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Speaker 1: She's never somebody who has been able to talk about

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Speaker 1: her feelings. The most notable feature of my mom is

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Speaker 1: that she is absolutely stunning.

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Speaker 3: She looks kind of like a young Fay done Away

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Speaker 3: in my early memories and in early photos of her,

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Speaker 3: just high cheekbones and sea green eyes, in this cascade

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Speaker 3: of blonde hair, and almost like untouchable. And I think

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Speaker 3: that was something that my dad was definitely attracted to.

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Speaker 1: Early on, she seemed ungettable.

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Speaker 3: You know, my dad was not tall, a little bit pudgy,

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Speaker 3: a Jewish kid from Roxbury, and he came back to

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Speaker 3: Boston with this goddess, and I don't know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: the words trophy wife pop into mind. I'm sure they

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Speaker 3: had a connection beyond that. But looking back on them now,

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Speaker 3: like I often wonder how they wound up married. They

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Speaker 3: seemed like a little bit of a mismatch.

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Speaker 2: How did they meet.

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Speaker 1: My mother was terribly shy.

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Speaker 3: She didn't ever have a community of friends. She kind

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Speaker 3: of disappeared into her studies and her work. She did

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Speaker 3: some teaching as a graduate student. But I won't say

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Speaker 3: that it was her passion. I mean she worked to

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Speaker 3: get her PhD for many, many years. I think it

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Speaker 3: took twenty years, and.

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Speaker 1: She was very quiet.

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Speaker 3: We had a screened porch that we turned into an

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Speaker 3: office for her, which also sat behind a closed door

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Speaker 3: of most of the time, and she was always had

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Speaker 3: her nose in a book. She dutifully took me to

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Speaker 3: my violin lessons. If I had competitions and performances, she

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Speaker 3: was always the one who took me.

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Speaker 1: She was always physically present, but at the same time

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Speaker 1: I couldn't touch her.

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Speaker 2: And your brother during those early years, you know, you're

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Speaker 2: growing up together under the same roof years. What was

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Speaker 2: your relationship like the two of you.

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Speaker 3: So, my brother and I when we were in grade school,

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Speaker 3: we fought terribly. I mean our fights were epic. There

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Speaker 3: was I can remember a fight when I made him

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Speaker 3: so mad he took a knife from a kitchen drawer

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Speaker 3: and chased me around the house and I had to

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Speaker 3: lock myself in.

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Speaker 1: A closet so that he couldn't get to me. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot of energy between us as young siblings.

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Speaker 3: And then when he graduated from eighth grade, he decided

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Speaker 3: to go to a fancy New England boarding school and

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Speaker 3: I did not, so we kind of split paths there.

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Speaker 3: I went to the public school in Cambridge, Cambride, Drench

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Speaker 3: and Latin.

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Speaker 1: Famously. My classmates were Matt Damon and Ben Affleck.

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Speaker 3: It was a very diverse community and there was art

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Speaker 3: and there was music, and there were sports. It was

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Speaker 3: just a fully integrated inner city high school experience. And

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Speaker 3: my brother was sort of whisked her way to this

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Speaker 3: boarding school where big money, big problems, right.

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Speaker 1: I know, there was a fair amount of drug use,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 3: We got busted at Cambridgrine and Latin for having cigarettes,

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Speaker 3: but they were doing mescaline and LSD and all sorts

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Speaker 3: of things.

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Speaker 1: That were in another league.

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Speaker 3: So I don't feel like I had a relationship with

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Speaker 3: my brother in high school.

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Speaker 1: He largely disappeared and that was his.

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Speaker 3: Choice, so we kind of went our separate ways. I

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Speaker 3: came to understand later he had his reasons for wanting

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Speaker 3: to steal away to boarding school, but I didn't.

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Speaker 1: Know them at the time.

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Speaker 2: So Susan and her brother, who are only sixteen months

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Speaker 2: apart in age, have separate and very different high school experiences, well,

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Speaker 2: he spends those years at boarding school. Susan focuses on music,

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Speaker 2: with which she has a storied and intense, you might

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Speaker 2: even say pre professor relationship.

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Speaker 3: So my mother played the piano. She comes from a

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Speaker 3: family of musicians. All four of her siblings played three

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Speaker 3: out of four professionally, so music was the thing that

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Speaker 3: my mom knew, and she picked the violin for me.

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Speaker 3: I have pictures of me at four years old.

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Speaker 1: Playing my Suzuki method. I can't say that I chose it.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you when I didn't have to play anymore,

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Speaker 3: I immediately stopped.

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Speaker 1: So I think.

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Speaker 3: That sort of informs how much I loved it. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I love music.

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Speaker 1: There were times when I was sitting in the orchestra

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Speaker 1: in high school.

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Speaker 3: I played at the orchestra at the New Conservatory where I.

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Speaker 1: Could just disappear in the music and it was euphoric.

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Speaker 3: But the day to day part of being a musician

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Speaker 3: was very isolating.

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Speaker 1: It made me feel very lonely.

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Speaker 3: When your friends are on sports teams and they are

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Speaker 3: going to swim meets and cheering each other on, and

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Speaker 3: you're at home in your room with the door closed,

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Speaker 3: practicing your atudes and scales, but it's not really a

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Speaker 3: formula for feeling part of something bigger. My mom would

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Speaker 3: sit down at the piano and we would play. Playing

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Speaker 3: the violin was my threat that connected me to her.

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Speaker 3: There weren't any deep conversations.

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Speaker 1: There was no laughter, There was no sharing of jokes

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Speaker 1: and how was your day.

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Speaker 3: We communicated through the music, and there was a time

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Speaker 3: that that was kind of all I knew. It was

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Speaker 3: a language I mastered before I even mastered a spoken

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Speaker 3: language is the language of music.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we had a ritual.

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Speaker 3: Two days a week where she would drive me to

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Speaker 3: my violin lesson and we would go to Dunkin Donuts

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Speaker 3: afterward and I would get fruit punch and a powder donut.

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Speaker 3: And that was the thing that I can't say that

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Speaker 3: I looked forward to it, but it's something that made

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Speaker 3: me feel safe. When I was young. It was all

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Speaker 3: very cute, and the word prodigy was thrown around, although

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Speaker 3: I can tell you I was no prodigy, but because

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Speaker 3: it started at such a young age, you know, I

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Speaker 3: mastered curriculum that much older players were playing, so there

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Speaker 3: was the illusion that I was some prodigy. So it

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Speaker 3: became this thing almost like how to punch my ticket

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Speaker 3: into those elite institutions that we were bordering up against.

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Speaker 1: Right, So if you're really good at something, then it

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Speaker 1: distinguishes you. And I wanted to be distinguished.

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Speaker 3: So while I didn't love the rhythm of being a musician,

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Speaker 3: I didn't love the lonely afternoons at home all alone.

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Speaker 3: I did love getting my picture in the paper when

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Speaker 3: I was the concert master of the State Orchestra. And

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Speaker 3: I did love the fact that I had a thing

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Speaker 3: that was mine that made me special.

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Speaker 2: That's such a great answer, And you know, it strikes

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Speaker 2: me as really poetic that you know, your mother and

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Speaker 2: you did not have an ongoing dialogue that was based

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Speaker 2: in words, and you know, warm and loving and full

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Speaker 2: of laughter and revelation. But this, for you know, violin

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Speaker 2: and pianos that you played together were a kind of

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Speaker 2: musical dialogue, like call and response in a way. It's

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Speaker 2: so interesting that that's where you had that exactly right.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, my mom didn't have words.

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Speaker 2: My mom was incredibly shy. She never talked about her feelings.

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Speaker 2: It was not her culture, coming from.

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Speaker 3: The Upper Peninsula, the strict Lutheran suck it up be

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Speaker 3: dutiful to God and country.

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Speaker 1: She didn't ever indulge in any woe is Me talk.

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Speaker 1: She didn't ask me really if I was okay.

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Speaker 3: It was always assumed that I was, or I would

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Speaker 3: figure out how to be okay. It's interesting because I

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Speaker 3: never psychoanalyzed it on any level growing up, and then

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Speaker 3: I became a mom, and of course I did then

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Speaker 3: have to look at that in a new way.

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Speaker 2: Will be back in a moment with more family secrets.

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Speaker 2: The violin seems to be Susan's ticket. When she's a

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Speaker 2: senior in high school, she's admitted to Juilliard, and the

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Speaker 2: summer before her senior year, she attends Juilliard's program at

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Speaker 2: the Aspen Music Festival in Aspen, Colorado. But Susan actually

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Speaker 2: desperately does not want to go to Juilliard. Encouraged by

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Speaker 2: her guidance counselor, she applies to Harvard, just down the road.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't think she can handle Juilliard, and her parents

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Speaker 2: will be okay with Harvard if she gets in, because

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Speaker 2: Harvard is just as good, if not better, in her parents' eyes.

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Speaker 2: So when Susan auditions for Harvard, the stakes could not

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Speaker 2: be higher.

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Speaker 3: When I was at Aspen Summer School. I developed a

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Speaker 3: trick what some of my colleagues did before auditions. You know,

302
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 3: we would steal our parents' blood pressure medicine. I took

303
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 3: something called enderol that my dad took for high blood pressure,

304
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Speaker 3: and I stole a bottle of it, and I used

305
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,840
Speaker 3: to take it for master classes when I had to

306
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Speaker 3: play in front of people. I used to take it

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Speaker 3: anytime I had to audition. I didn't when I was

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Speaker 3: performing an orchestra, I didn't need it. But I was

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Speaker 3: becoming like a legitimate drug addict. And I had an

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Speaker 3: interesting revelation, you know, before I decided I was going

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Speaker 3: to sneak behind my parents back and apply to Harvard.

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00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,280
Speaker 3: My high school orchestra did a concert with the cellist Yoyoma,

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Speaker 3: and we had one rehearsal with him. We played the

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Speaker 3: Divorce c Cello cocero, which is absolutely stunning piece, and

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Speaker 3: he came out. We were sitting there, you know, the

316
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Speaker 3: soloist comes out. The orchestra is seated, and then the

317
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Speaker 3: soloist comes out, and everybody in the audience collaps and

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Speaker 3: he sits down and we start to play, and I

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Speaker 3: glance up at him and he's euphoric.

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Speaker 1: The smile on his face radiated up to the.

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Speaker 3: Sky, and I remember, I'm playing this music, which is

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Speaker 3: very emotional and moving. It's a gorgeous concerto, and I'm

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Speaker 3: looking at this man who was so full of joy,

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Speaker 3: when all I feel is rocks in my stomach. I

325
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 3: would always feel nauseated when I played in front of people,

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Speaker 3: and that's the reason that I didn't become a musician.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of a perverse thing to say, and my

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Speaker 3: apologies to Yoyoma, but he's the one who made me

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Speaker 3: not want to be a violinist because I didn't have

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Speaker 3: that kind of joy. And that's what you should have

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Speaker 3: if you're going to devote your life to a thing, anything,

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Speaker 3: If it doesn't fill you.

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Speaker 1: With joy, you're on the wrong path. And so I

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Speaker 1: carry that with me.

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Speaker 3: Whenever I started to have doubts, like is do I

336
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,040
Speaker 3: really want to quit the violin, I remember that moment

337
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 3: of watching him.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't have that joy. So thank you, Yoyoma. Yes.

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Speaker 3: So, when I was at Harvard, I did an internship

340
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Speaker 3: at WBZTV and I wanted to be a newscaster, and

341
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,399
Speaker 3: I started out as an intern and I let it

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00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,479
Speaker 3: be known that I wanted to be on air, but

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Speaker 3: they made me do all the kind of grunt work.

344
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Speaker 3: But finally, what producer said, you know, you've been here

345
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Speaker 3: for two and a half years, what do you want

346
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Speaker 3: to do?

347
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Speaker 1: And I said I wanted to be on air, and they.

348
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Speaker 3: Gave me an audition, and that same thing that happened

349
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Speaker 3: when I played the violin.

350
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Speaker 1: I got very tense. I felt sick. I was not

351
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Speaker 1: able to do that in front of people. It was

352
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Speaker 1: not meant to be. I was not equipped.

353
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Speaker 3: So I was still working at the news station and

354
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Speaker 3: a colleague of mine said he was applying to this

355
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 3: assistant director's training program and it was in Hollywood and

356
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Speaker 3: they trained you how to run movie sets. And I

357
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 3: thought that sounded super fun. And also my father had

358
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Speaker 3: told me, in no uncertain terms, once you graduate Harvard,

359
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,400
Speaker 3: you're out. We're taking your key. You need to have

360
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,199
Speaker 3: a career all figured out, and I had just realized

361
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Speaker 3: that I was never going to have a.

362
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Speaker 1: Career on TV.

363
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Speaker 3: So I applied to this program that I knew very

364
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Speaker 3: little about, with the attitude if it picks me, then

365
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Speaker 3: I'm going to be good at it.

366
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Speaker 1: And it did pick.

367
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Speaker 3: Me, so I moved to Hollywood at the tender age

368
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Speaker 3: of twenty one to work in movie sets, something I

369
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 3: knew nothing about. But it was a training program and

370
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Speaker 3: it was a fit for where I was. It was management,

371
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,919
Speaker 3: it was behind the scenes. I had no spotlights shining

372
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,439
Speaker 3: on me, but I got to be around creative people

373
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Speaker 3: and be part of making something bigger, writ a movie

374
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Speaker 3: or a TV show.

375
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Speaker 1: So literally a week.

376
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Speaker 3: After I graduated from Harvard, I was on a plane

377
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 3: and I moved to LA And it's a paid training program,

378
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 3: so I had a career boom. So when I first

379
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 3: started my job, we're on set five days a week,

380
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,879
Speaker 3: and then Saturdays you're taking classes. I really didn't have

381
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,919
Speaker 3: time to be homesick or think about my parents. But

382
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 3: I do remember Christmas was coming and I'd been working

383
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 3: for six months, and I just assumed I was going

384
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 3: to go home and I went to the production office.

385
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 3: I was working on a show called Get a Life,

386
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 3: some strange irony, and that because I'm calling my parents

387
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,439
Speaker 3: from the production office is before we all had cell phones.

388
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 3: And I said, you know, I think I should get

389
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 3: a plane ticket. Will you buy one for me? Or

390
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 3: do you need me to buy it? Myself and when

391
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Speaker 3: should I come? And my mom said, oh, we're not

392
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 3: going to be here for Christmas, to your father's taking

393
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 3: me to the Bahamas. And I remember I was twenty

394
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Speaker 3: two years old. It was my first year away from.

395
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Speaker 1: Home, and I was just assumed I was going to

396
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Speaker 1: go home.

397
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Speaker 3: And then I found myself sort of with Christmas bearing

398
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,919
Speaker 3: down on me, with nowhere to go. I hung up

399
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 3: the phone and I started crying. And I'm in the

400
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 3: production office. It was very embarrassing to be crying in

401
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 3: front of my colleagues. And one of the girls who

402
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 3: worked on the show, she was about my age, saw

403
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 3: me and came over to me and asked me what

404
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 3: was wrong. And she invited me to come to her

405
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 3: house for Christmas. And she lived in Reno, Nevada, and

406
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 3: she basically kidnapped me for Christmas. And I got to

407
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 3: see a place i'd never been before. I danced with cowboys,

408
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,439
Speaker 3: I had a very traditional Christmas in.

409
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 1: A snowy place. It was absolutely wonderful.

410
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 3: And I'm not going to be hyperbolic and say she

411
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,639
Speaker 3: saved my life, but honestly, I don't know where I

412
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,960
Speaker 3: would have gone in that moment without her. And you know,

413
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 3: sometimes the universe takes care of you, and the universe

414
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 3: took care of me through Wendy in that moment. My

415
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 3: father was always a person who would tell me, you know,

416
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 3: you're a big girl.

417
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: You can take care of yourself.

418
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 3: And if I didn't get something the first time, he

419
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: would say, well, go back and try again. And I

420
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 3: have the feeling it's my instinct, and I could be wrong,

421
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 3: but I think my dad.

422
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: Just decided we're going to do this thing, and we

423
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 1: earned it.

424
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 3: And they kids are on their own, their adults now,

425
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 3: and I don't know how my mother felt about it.

426
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 1: I want to believe that.

427
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 3: It was difficult for her, but I also have to understand,

428
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: you know, my dad was a guy who was jet

429
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 3: setting all over the place and he invited her, and

430
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,239
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you it wasn't always she who

431
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 3: was invited, and I don't think she could have said no.

432
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: Years past twenty five of them by February of twenty sixteen.

433
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 2: Susan is married and has two young daughters. She's been

434
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 2: developing her career as a screenwriter and has reached a

435
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: big milestone. She's just sold a script that will be

436
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: made into a movie. It will be her directorial debut.

437
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 2: But just as all this is happening, just as she

438
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: finally feels she's done, her father proud, he dies.

439
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 4: He was just set in this impossible standard, and I

440
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 4: felt like I might have finally earned my place in

441
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 4: his wall of pride, and that would be something.

442
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 3: You know, Dad, I'm doing a movie with Sharon Stone.

443
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 3: And he died before it happened. She died six months

444
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: before we went into production on that movie. And I

445
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 3: remember when he passed away, thinking, he never saw me

446
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 3: do something great.

447
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 2: It's so interesting, Susan, because he saw you be viewed

448
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: as a violin prodigy and certainly performing and really esteemed places.

449
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 2: And he saw you go to Harvard. But the feeling

450
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: that you had was, he hasn't seen me do anything well.

451
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 3: My memories of being a young child were always that

452
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: I was not quite good enough. If I got an

453
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: as what happened to those other five points? And I

454
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: wasn't the valedictorian of my class and why not?

455
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: And you can do better than that.

456
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 3: And what's so strange is I always assumed he held

457
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: himself to that standard on every front. I thought that

458
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 3: he was invincible and this perfect person and so I

459
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 3: tried to be good enough for him. You know, I

460
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 3: had an eating disorder for most of my teen years

461
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: because my dad carried a little extra weight, and I thought, well,

462
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 3: the thing that would really make him love me is

463
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 3: if I was skinny, and so I would go off

464
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 3: the deep end with the diets.

465
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: I would go days and days and days without eating.

466
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 3: I passed out from not eating many times, and all

467
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: to be that thing that would light him up. I

468
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 3: have a core memory of being in my house eating

469
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: ice cream out of the tub and him walking in

470
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: and pinching my underarm right like a fat caliber and

471
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 3: him saying like, do you think ice.

472
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: Cream is really the right move for you right now?

473
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: Imagine how good you could be if you didn't have

474
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 3: that little extra fat on your arm, and thinking like, you.

475
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: Know what, he's right, and maybe I can do that,

476
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: And I did.

477
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 3: I got down to I was five four and eighty

478
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 3: eight pounds and I maintained that for about a year

479
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 3: and a half until a doctor said, you know you're

480
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: killing yourself, right, And I said, I don't think that's

481
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: what he wants.

482
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: But it was all about how to impress him.

483
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 2: So when he died, did he die suddenly.

484
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: He did.

485
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 3: He was at home and he did a thing in

486
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 3: the morning on the weekends where he would go swimming

487
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 3: in his pool. He lived in a condominium complex, and

488
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 3: he was kind of like, I don't.

489
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: Know the pied piper of the condo complex. He knew

490
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: all the neighbors.

491
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: My parents moved out to southern California after I did,

492
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 3: sometime after, not because of me. I think they were

493
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 3: just tired of Boston winters, and so they were living

494
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 3: in this condo complex near the beach in Plia Vista,

495
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 3: and he loved living there. He loved all his neighbors.

496
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 3: He made sure to befriend everyone, and.

497
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: People really responded to him.

498
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: So he had one of those mornings where he was

499
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 3: sort of holding court his condominium complex and he went

500
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: for a swim. He turned on the ballgame, he sat

501
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: down on the couch, fell asleep, and he never woke up.

502
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 3: My brother was living in San Francisco and I was

503
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: here in La so I drove to my mom. I

504
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: got the call from the neighbor, who is also a doctor,

505
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 3: and the neighbor said to me, Hey, I have to

506
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 3: deliver some very sad news.

507
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: Your father's passed.

508
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 3: Away and I was home with my kids and a

509
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 3: brand new babysitter. This babysitter was her first day and

510
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 3: I was just about to pay her to go home

511
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: when the phone rang and I just.

512
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: Collapsed in heaving sobs.

513
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 3: And my young daughters, I think they were seven and eleven,

514
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 3: they were terrified, and I pulled them to me and

515
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 3: I held them and I just cried, and I told them,

516
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: you know, Papa's dead.

517
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: Papa's dead, and this babysitter.

518
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 3: I just remember looking up at the babysitter and being like,

519
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry, I need you to stay. And I

520
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: drove to my mom and I think we were both

521
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 3: in shock. There was a sort of telling moment when

522
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: they come to take the body away, to take them

523
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 3: to the funeral home. He didn't you don't go to

524
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: a hospital. This I didn't know this I learned on

525
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: the spot, which is, you know, when they're already deceased,

526
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 3: there's no reason to go to a hospital. You just

527
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 3: take them to the place where they're gonna, you know,

528
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 3: their final resting place. And they come and they put

529
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 3: them on the gurney and they said to my mom

530
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 3: and me, you know, do you want to say goodbye,

531
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: and my mom just turned her head around and started

532
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: walking away, and.

533
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: I was embarrassed.

534
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: I didn't know what to say to my father in

535
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 3: that moment with people standing there, you know, they're very respectful.

536
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 3: They sort of clasped their hands and bow their heads,

537
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 3: and they wanted to give me a moment. And I

538
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: just remember watching my mom walk away and being so stunned,

539
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 3: like you're walking away. Maybe it was just too much.

540
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: A few months after her father's death, Susan takes charge

541
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: of cleaning out his closet donates his clothes to goodwill.

542
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: Her brother, at their mother's request, has taken over sortings

543
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: through their father's office. He's been loosely involved in the

544
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: business and naturally steps in to handle these matters. This

545
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: makes sense to Susan at the time. Her brother will

546
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: know what's important, what to keep, what to look for.

547
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: She never thinks twice about it. Then, after a meal

548
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 2: one day with her kids and brother, he casually mentioned

549
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: something in passing, something he assumes she already knows, but

550
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: she doesn't.

551
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 3: We're walking from my car and I have my daughter

552
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 3: Sophie with me, and my brother just casually brings up

553
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 3: the letters from the girlfriend that he doesn't know what

554
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 3: to do with. And I was like, wait, who's a girlfriend.

555
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: He's like, well, Dad's girlfriend. And I was like, what

556
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: are you talking about. He said, well, yeah, you know,

557
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: I found about twenty letters from this woman and I

558
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: tried to find her. But I don't know, Maybe it's

559
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 3: not a good idea. And I was so flabbergasted on

560
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 3: two fronts. One that he's so casually bringing it up,

561
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: but also in front of my daughter. My brother does

562
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 3: not have kids, and you know, I wanted to give

563
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 3: my daughters the gift of happy memories of a grandfather

564
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 3: who was worthy of their love.

565
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: Right, maybe my mom wanted that for me to because

566
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,959
Speaker 1: she never told me even though she knew, And so

567
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: in that moment.

568
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 3: Many things were taken from me. First, what was taken

569
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 3: from me was this memory of my father as this

570
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: perfect person, which maybe should have been taken from me

571
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: long ago, but it was zapped from me in that moment. Also,

572
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: it was taken away from my daughter because she had

573
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 3: a good relationship with her grandfather by the time he

574
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 3: was in his sixties and seventies, all the fraught overachieving,

575
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 3: you know, where was he all those weekends none of

576
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: that was part of her life. She just had experience

577
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: of a fun, loving guy who liked a barbecue and

578
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: took her in the swimming pool. And I liked that

579
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: she had that, but she doesn't have it anymore after

580
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 3: this conversation. So yeah, that was kind of a stunning moment,

581
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: and I didn't really want to get into it with

582
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: him in front of her, but we did talk about

583
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: it later, and I came to learn that.

584
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: He just assumed that I knew because everybody else knew.

585
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: I mean, he knew, my mother knew, my mother's family knew,

586
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: but somehow I didn't know.

587
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: And what did you find out? I mean, there was

588
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: one woman for a very long time. He had one

589
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: relationship over many years with another woman, and everybody knew

590
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: about that and knew her identity.

591
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 3: I don't know how many people knew her identity. I

592
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 3: do know that she wrote to him many times over

593
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 3: many years. My brother said nine years, but it could

594
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 3: have been more because maybe they only started writing letters

595
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 3: after they were involved for a time. I know that

596
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 3: there were times that acquaintances of my mother, women I

597
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: learned from my brother, told my mother they called her

598
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: on the telephone to say like, hey, you know, I

599
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: saw your husband out at this bar looking kind of.

600
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: Intimate with another woman.

601
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: And you know, my brother had told me that these

602
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 3: women had called my mom, And I guess my mom

603
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 3: confided in my brother because he knew this and I didn't.

604
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 3: But I mean, I think it was well known in

605
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 3: their circle of friends that he was stepping out.

606
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: Susan has always tried to do the right thing. As

607
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: a mother of daughters. She lives by example, checks the boxes,

608
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: follows the rules, striving to make her father proud. So

609
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: when the truth surfaces, not just a hidden detail, but

610
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: a secret it seems everyone else had known, but her,

611
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: it lands heavily. It isn't just the revelation, it's the

612
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: unique and pressing weight of being the last to know.

613
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: My first impulse was to be angry at my mother

614
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 3: and my brother for keeping this from me. But then

615
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: it occurred to me that, you know, in a way,

616
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 3: it was a kindness, right, I mean, there was no

617
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: reason for them to upset the happy memories that I

618
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: was carrying of this person. But at the same time,

619
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 3: I got an eating disorder from my father. I was

620
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: never happy, I was never satisfied, I never felt good

621
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 3: about myself. I still you to this day, am painfully insecure.

622
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: I have a lot of self doubt.

623
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 3: I still have disordered eating and all because I thought

624
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: I had to be something perfect for this perfect person,

625
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: and then to find out that he wasn't perfect. Strangely,

626
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: it doesn't make any of those things go away. It

627
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 3: doesn't make any of the self loathing go away.

628
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: It's in there now, like that was his gift to me.

629
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: I use the word gift. I mean, on the one hand, it.

630
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: Has pushed me to do things that most people might

631
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: not try to do. Right.

632
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: I made a movie, I've written books.

633
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: Now, I've done things that are outside my comfort zone

634
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: because somewhere my inner child is trying to impress him,

635
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 3: I think.

636
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: But at the other hand, was I ever happy?

637
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 3: You know, we're raising kids, right, and there's always this

638
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: balance of you want them to do big, scary things,

639
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 3: and you want them on some level to keep pushing

640
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 3: right to not be satisfied, but really, ultimately you want

641
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: them to be happy.

642
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: And I don't know if those two things can coexist.

643
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: I was around a lot of very successful people, both

644
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: in the music world and then at Harvard, and the

645
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 3: most successful people are not usually the happiest people because

646
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: there's always more and they've always held themselves to a

647
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: really high standard.

648
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: And do you ever really reach that high standard?

649
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: And I don't know that you ever can, because there's

650
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: always another rung on the ladder to reach. And if

651
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: you're that person who was always climbing the ladder, how

652
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: do you ever feel satisfied where you are?

653
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: Do you think your father felt that way?

654
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: My dad used to wear this t shirt around. It

655
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: was his favorite shirt. It said, he who dies with

656
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: the most toys wins. Everything was a competition for him.

657
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: There was always something to win, there was always more

658
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: money to.

659
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 3: Make, and I mean we even did word problems around

660
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 3: the dinner table at night. I mean, I think this

661
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 3: is why I did well on my math SAT because

662
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 3: I was not mathy. But he used to do these

663
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 3: word problems about trains leaving Zurich traveling at this miles

664
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 3: per hour and figure it out. Whoever figures it out

665
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: wins wins the game. And there were always competitions in

666
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: my house. And he was just a super competitive guy.

667
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: And he made money at his company and somebody offered

668
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: to buy it and he could have been set for life,

669
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: but it wasn't enough, and he wound up driving it

670
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 3: into the ground ultimately.

671
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, he was always just wanted more and more

672
00:34:59,560 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 1: and more.

673
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Secrets have hovered in the air

674
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: surrounding Susan for much of her life. The secret that

675
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: her father wasn't exactly who he made himself out to be,

676
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: The secret inherent in her mother's emotional absence, the secret

677
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: that she didn't really want to be a concert violinist,

678
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: but when she's at the Aspen Music Festival, something happens

679
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: to her that then becomes a secret she forces so

680
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: deep within her that it loses all shape and language, until,

681
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: like all secrets, it insists on being known.

682
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: So, you know, the interesting thing about secrets, My mother

683
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 3: held this secret for a really.

684
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: Long time, and I think.

685
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: She kind of used secrecy as a protection mechanism. Right,

686
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: if nobody knew what was happening behind all those closed doors,

687
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: she didn't have to do anything. She didn't have to

688
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: confront my father's duplicity, She didn't have to fix what

689
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: was broken.

690
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: It was how she stayed safe. She was a very

691
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: shy person.

692
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 3: She didn't like conflict, and it was a kind of

693
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 3: head in the sand approach, right, So if I pretend

694
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 3: it's not there, even though everybody's telling me what's happening,

695
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: then I don't have to touch it.

696
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: You know.

697
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: And I have complicated feelings about my mom keeping what

698
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 3: she knew about my dad a secret. You know.

699
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: One might say it was a kindness, right.

700
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 3: She let me believe what I wanted to believe, that

701
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 3: my dad was this amazingly perfect guy, and the truth

702
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 3: was not pleasant. And as mothers, we want to protect

703
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: our kids from unpleasant things.

704
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: But then this thing happened to me.

705
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 3: So at seventeen, I was in a par apartment with

706
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: grad students in their early twenties, and they just thought

707
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: I was the cutest thing. And they used to cart

708
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: me around like a puppy, and they were very kind

709
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: to me. They just thought it was super amusing, and

710
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: they thought they were doing me a favor. Right.

711
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: They would sneak me into bars, and I don't know

712
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: if I liked it or not.

713
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: I think I was always a little bit nervous. But

714
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 3: I also didn't want to be home alone. I wasn't

715
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 3: around my peers. I was around these older people, and

716
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: that's what they did. So it was either be alone

717
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 3: or go with them, and it was all fun and games.

718
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: I don't think I.

719
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 3: Really drank at these bars. It was somewhere to be,

720
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: but they wanted to stay out light. So I remember

721
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 3: there was one night at one of these bars, I

722
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: just had to go home. It was too much and

723
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: I left the bar and there were two young men

724
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: who were standing outside and saw me leaving, and I

725
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 3: think I might have talked to them when I was

726
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 3: inside the bar. They didn't know how old I was,

727
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: but I was a very skinny kid, so they probably

728
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: knew I was a teenager that they offered to walk

729
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 3: me home. And you know, I was a person who

730
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 3: didn't know how to say no. I think I'm a

731
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: generation of women who didn't know how to say no,

732
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 3: who felt like we should just do what the man

733
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: says and say thank you. And my spidy sense was tingling,

734
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 3: like these guys did not have good intentions for me.

735
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: Did not want them to walk me home. And then

736
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 3: we get to my apartment and they asked if they

737
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 3: could see my apartment.

738
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 1: Oh, you're staying here, can we see?

739
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 3: And so again I didn't want them to come in,

740
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 3: but I also hadn't learned to trust my instincts, and

741
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: I was afraid to say no to them. I didn't

742
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: want to let them down. Man, this is a theme

743
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: with me, right. Like I didn't want to say no

744
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 3: to my dad, I didn't want to say no to

745
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 3: these men. So they came into my apartment and what

746
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: happened next. Honestly, it's kind of feels like a dream.

747
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: I didn't know how to say no, so you can

748
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: go in the blank. It's very difficult to talk about.

749
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: And you didn't write. You didn't talk about it. In

750
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: the immediate aftermaths. You stay quiet.

751
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: Oh, I told nobody.

752
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 3: You know, something happens when other people are inflicting violence

753
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 3: upon you. There's a protection mechanism where you just disassociate, right, And.

754
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: This thing was happening.

755
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 3: To think that other human beings would do that to

756
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: a human being, to a girl, it's so vile that

757
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 3: you just don't want to believe that it's true. And

758
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: the next day I just went on with my life.

759
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: I had a masterclass I had to perform in and

760
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 3: I played and I finished out the term and I

761
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 3: got on a plane and I went home.

762
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: Lashed you. Forty years later, my mother and I we

763
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: still have never had a conversation about it.

764
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 3: I have tried to have a conversation with her about it,

765
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: and the response I get is, I can't talk about it.

766
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 1: It's too hard.

767
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: So this idea of I can't talk about it, it's

768
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: too hard. You're now a mother of two daughters, who

769
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 2: are you, know, around the age that you were when

770
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: this happened to you. And I think one of the

771
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: things comes up on this show comes up in life

772
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: a lot. When we have kids and our kids reach

773
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: an age where something happened to us, it sort of

774
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: activates a different kind of thought process, or like it

775
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 2: adds a whole other layer to these questions of what

776
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 2: should have happened that didn't happen, what it would mean

777
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: to be a parent in a moment like that. Is

778
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: that something that's kind of caught up with you over

779
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 2: the years now that you have daughters who are that age,

780
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: or is that something that you already knew?

781
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: So I repressed the memory for many years. There was

782
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: no reason to talk about it. I didn't talk about it.

783
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 3: I learned from my mom that secrets not talked about

784
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 3: can stay hidden, and they can't hurt you if they're hidden.

785
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: This is what I learned. I'm not saying that it's true.

786
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 3: I'm saying that this is what she modeled for me.

787
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 3: If you sweep it under the rug, it can't hurt you.

788
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 3: So that's what I did. Whenever I, you know, think

789
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 3: back of that memory and the trauma, I still came out.

790
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: Okay. I got very lucky. So I put it away.

791
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: It couldn't hurt me anymore.

792
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 3: And then I got married. I had two daughters, and

793
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 3: you know, when you become a mother, something awakens in

794
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 3: you and it's like this tigress of protection. And all

795
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 3: of a sudden, as I'm looking down at my daughter's

796
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 3: face when she's just a little baby, the memory comes

797
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 3: back hit me like a wall of water.

798
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it makes so much sense that, you know,

799
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: when you're looking at your own child, it comes crashing

800
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: back into your consciousness. So this is when you attempt

801
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: to have a real conversation with your mother.

802
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember the day that I went to talk

803
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: to her. I went by myself, I left my kids

804
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: and my husband and I said, Mom, I need to

805
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: come over.

806
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: I need to have a.

807
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 3: Conversation with you. And I said, you know, do you

808
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: remember this thing that happened? No, response, I need to

809
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 3: remind you of this thing that happened to me. My

810
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 3: husband and I have talked about it, and she did

811
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 3: what she was capable of. She didn't have a language,

812
00:42:58,719 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 3: you know, we talked earlier.

813
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: Language was music. That's how we communicated.

814
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: She spent much of her adult life, her married life,

815
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 3: as a victim herself, and it was just too much.

816
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 3: She held it together, She held the family together under

817
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: incredibly stressful circumstances for her, humiliating circumstances for.

818
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: Her, and then this thing happened to me.

819
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 3: She has never been able to speak to me, and

820
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 3: when I brought it up, he just shuts down.

821
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: Though Susan now knows her father's secret and has confronted

822
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: her own, there's collateral damage. There are imprints that can't

823
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: be undone, the things her father did, the things that

824
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 2: were done to her. These truths have been unearthed, but

825
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: they are still in her bones, part of her.

826
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 3: Like we either follow in our parents' footsteps or we overcompensate.

827
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: I definitely took the ladder route in that my daughters

828
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 3: know what happened to me. I told them, well, you know,

829
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 3: I told them, not just because I thought they were

830
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: ready but I told them, you know, I want them

831
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 3: to understand my triggers, right, because there are sometimes when

832
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 3: I might act in a way, I might overreact, or

833
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 3: I might have fear around something, And when they became

834
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 3: emotionally mature enough to sort of handle something about that,

835
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 3: I thought that it would help our relationship to understand,

836
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: you know, like if I freak out because you want

837
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 3: to do this, you have some context now and we

838
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 3: can talk about it. And I think that's helped our

839
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 3: relationship because certainly they're more understanding. You know, Look, we

840
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: do our best as moms to be the grown up,

841
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 3: but we have our trauma, and sometimes that trauma expresses

842
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 3: itself in ways we're not aware of. But these emotionally

843
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 3: intelligent gen Z women, they get it.

844
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: And I'm so impressed with them. And there's been times my.

845
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 3: Twenty year old is we be like, Mom, that's trauma talking,

846
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: and I'm like, yeah, thank you for reminding me, and

847
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 3: thank you for forgiving me for the irrational thing that

848
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 3: I just said. And it just makes these some you know,

849
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 3: difficult conversations or disagreements go down a little easier.

850
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: So I'm very deliberate with them. I'm self aware now

851
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: through talking about it. I mean, that's where we talk about.

852
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 3: You know, when you stuff the trauma under the rug,

853
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 3: you don't know how it's driving your life.

854
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: But when you start talking about it, sometimes you can

855
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: catch it when it's working on you.

856
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 3: And sometimes if my daughters are expressing a desire to

857
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 3: do something that I think is unsafe, they understand where

858
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 3: I'm coming from and we can have a conversation out

859
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 3: in the open about it. There's no trauma secretly driving

860
00:45:48,480 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 3: the bus, and that's been really helpful. Family Secrets is

861
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is the story editor

862
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 3: and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If you have

863
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 3: a family secret you'd like to share, please leave us

864
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 3: a voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming episode.

865
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,439
Speaker 2: Our number is one eight eight eight Secret zero. That's

866
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: the number zero. You can also find me on Instagram

867
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 2: at Danny Ryder. And if you'd like to know more

868
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: about the story that inspired this podcast, check out my

869
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

870
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.