1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to this informed a mini series from There 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Yesterday, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: the ceo is of Facebook, Google, and Twitter went before 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: Congress to testify about the role that their platforms played 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: and spreading the misinformation that led to the insurrection. In January, 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg proposed some limited reforms to Section 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: two thirty, legislation that says that tech platforms can't be 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: held liable for what people post on those platforms. First, 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: platform should have to issue transparency reports that state the 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: prevalence of content across all different categories of harmful content, 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: everything from child exploitation to terrorism, to incitement of violence 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: to um intellectual property violations to pornography, whatever that the 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: different harms are. On this week's episode, we heard from 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: Evan Greer, digital rights activist, about why she works with 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: the organization Fight for the Future. Tip deserve Section to 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: thirty now. In the episode, Evans said that rushed changes 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: to Section to thirty could do more harm than good. 18 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 1: This is not about defending the companies. I don't particularly 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: care very much about um, you know, the company's profits 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: or uh, you know how much money they have to 21 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: spend on lawsuits. What I care about is the impact 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: that that then has on marginalized people's speech in particularly 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: social movements, And for me, section to thirty is such 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: a crucial law for protecting speech like, for example, a 25 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: video of police violence, which in a world without Section 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: to thirty would almost certainly invite lawsuits from law enforcement 27 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,839 Speaker 1: who would claim that it's defamatory or that its incitement, 28 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: right like the Me Too movement, where you know people 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: are able to speak out about abusive behavior, and platforms 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: are willing to host that speech because they know that 31 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: they're not going to get sued for giving people a 32 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: platform to speak and speak their truth, and so I 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: always think about the impact on those movements. Fight for 34 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: the Future sees Section to thirty as one of the 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: most important laws protecting free speech and human rights in 36 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,839 Speaker 1: the digital age. And that doesn't mean that we don't 37 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: think it can ever be changed. Right, no law is sacrosanct. 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: Laws are just laws. But we are very concerned that 39 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, rushed or uncareful changes to Section two thirty 40 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: will do far more harm than good. So you might 41 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: have already gleaned there's a lot of debate about section 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: to thirty. Some people say it shields big tech companies 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: from accountability. Well others say it's the backbone of what 44 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: makes the Internet the Internet. Last season, we heard from 45 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: Carrie Goldberg, an attorney who fights things like revenge born stalking, 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: and harassment on social media. In a groundbreaking case about 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: a horrific harassment campaign being run on the dating app Grinder, 48 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: Carry argued in favor of changes to section to thirty 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: in front of the Supreme Court. Let's listen into Carrey's 50 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: story and why she says section to thirty needs to 51 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: be changed. There used to be a time when we 52 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: didn't really have a term for the idea of revenge porn. 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: Spreading someone's intimate content online without their consent was just 54 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: a thing that happened on the Internet. Just last week, 55 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: nineteen year old Aaron Coleman won the Democratic primary for 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: a Kansas House seat, even after admitting to obtaining nude 57 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: photos of a girl when he was fourteen, trying to 58 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: blackmail her into sending him more photos and spreading them 59 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: online when she refused On Twitter. Journalist Glenn Greenwald of 60 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: The Intercept called Aaron's behavior quote bad middle school bullying, 61 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: but This kind of behavior isn't just bullying, it's a 62 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: serious sex crime. When we minimize revenge porn, we're contributing 63 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: to an attitude that says, once someone takes an intimate 64 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: photo of themselves, they deserve whatever happens next, even if 65 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: it means their life is destroyed, they're harassed, or worse. Luckily, 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: women are fighting to build a better Internet, one where 67 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: we have the right to feel safe online. You could 68 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: be forgiven for thinking of Carrie Goldberg as a real 69 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: life superhero instead of a cape. She rocks heels, bold 70 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: statement glasses and sometimes even caps it off with a 71 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: baseball hat. Reading I sue abusers with her law firm. 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: She spent her professional life holding all manner of Internet creeps, abusers, 73 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: and stalkers accountable. Going head to head with powerful abusers 74 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: and their enablers is scary, but Carrie has never been 75 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: one to back down from a challenge. She represented Lucia 76 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: Evans and Paz de la Huerta, who were among the 77 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: first women who made public allegations against Harvey Weinstein, which 78 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: led to his arrest. Her book, Nobody's Victim, is about 79 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: her own experiences with an abusive X who vowed to 80 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: use the Internet to ruin her life and her journey 81 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: to become the lawyer she needed. Carrie has been responsible 82 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: for creating a massive cultural change around the kind of 83 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: experiences marginalized people can expect from the internet. Her work 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: creating accountability for people who misuse the internet to cause 85 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: harm forces us to ask why should we accept mistreatment 86 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: as a given? Why can't things be better? Carrie, it 87 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: turns out has been holding creeps accountable since the very beginning. 88 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: So one of the stories I read about you is 89 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: that when you were in school, one of your classmates 90 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: was bragging about having gotten a hand job from one 91 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: of your girlfriends, and you responded by gluing a bunch 92 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: of amputated doll hands to a poster and giving it 93 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: to him with a card that says, we'll give you 94 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: a hand has holding people accountable for their bad behavior 95 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: always been a mission of yours? It didn't feel like 96 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: it was a mission of mine, no, but it was 97 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: a fun pastime. And I remember um, one of my 98 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: friends was on the boys soccer team and she was 99 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: the only girl on the team. We didn't have a 100 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: girls soccer team in Aberdeen, and there was an incident 101 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: where she was on the school bus and they were 102 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: going to an away game, and she fell asleep with 103 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: her mouth open, and she told me about how when 104 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: she woke up there were all these pubes in her 105 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: mouth and all I guess a bunch of of her 106 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: teammates had like plucked their pubes and put it put 107 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: them in her mouth. Now, I was a member of 108 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: the eurote team and I got assigned to write this 109 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: story about the boys soccer team, and I got kicked 110 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: off the yearbook team or the year robe class because 111 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: the teacher had realized that the first letter of each 112 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: word in the first couple of sentences spelled out pubic pluckers. 113 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: So um, you know, now that's just like that's a 114 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: Title nine situation, you know, like her waking up and 115 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: having you know that that's a disciplinary issue. Back then, 116 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: it was, it was. We didn't think that much of it. 117 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: It was playful, but I mean she was the only 118 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: girl on that team, you know, it was it was. 119 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: It's certainly impacting her enjoyment of it. Boys will be boys. 120 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: It's just a joke. She deserved it. I'd never let 121 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: something like that happen to me. It's difficult for me 122 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: to admit, but I've had these kinds of harmful victim 123 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: blaming reactions to hearing about the sexual abuse of a classmate. 124 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: I was fifteen, and it was gossip, something to whisper 125 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: about on home room. I got to feel like part 126 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: of the in group, judging another girl for something that 127 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: was done to her. It was wrong, and I wish 128 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: I had known better. Young me contributed to a culture 129 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: that treated serious crimes and violations like some big joke. 130 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: It wasn't a joke. Your work has been incredibly impactful 131 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: for me for my own process of understanding the cultural 132 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: change that needs to happen around those kinds of stories. Right. Um, 133 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: when I was in high school, I think that was 134 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: in tenth grade. You know how every school has that 135 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: big scandal that happens in your in your in your class, 136 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: or in your school that everybody's talking about. In my school, 137 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: it was a girl had sent intimate pictures to her 138 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: boyfriend currently just for him, and he sent them to everybody. 139 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: You know, he said. We lived a went to a 140 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: pretty small school. There was an all girls school where 141 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: there was an all boys school nearby, and these pictures 142 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: were seen by everybody. And I hate to say this, 143 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: it's like a shameful confession, but fifteen year old Bridget 144 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: I thought this was a joke, right, Like, fifteen year 145 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: old Bridget thought that because she had taken these pictures 146 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: at all, she deserved what happened to her, she deserved 147 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: to be shamed. And you know, I got I was 148 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: very young, but looking back, I thought about it as 149 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: a as a joke, right, I didn't think it was serious, 150 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: and I thought that, you know, it was okay to 151 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: make fun of her, to shame her because she had 152 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: done this to herself and she deserves it. And it 153 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: wasn't until becoming older did I really step back and think, 154 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,599 Speaker 1: like I was really complicit in continuing a cultural attitude 155 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: that a when things like this happened, that it's just 156 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: a joke, it's not serious, it's not a big it's 157 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: not a crime, and be that the victims deserve to whatever, 158 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: like scorn or shame they get because they put themselves 159 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: in this situation. And I guess my question is how 160 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: do we get to a place where we more people 161 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: go through that process of being like, oh, well, actually 162 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: I believe some pretty funked up stuff about victims about 163 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: sexualized violence, and I have a role in making sure 164 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: that that people everybody understands that these are very serious. 165 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm appreciate what you're talking about. Is is like it 166 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: is the issue. You know, like most of my underage clients, 167 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: almost all of them are that victim, are the person 168 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: that the scandal um around the high school is is 169 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: orbiting around, and um, it's you know, it's it is 170 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: like the The issue is that kids don't learn empathy, 171 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: and they don't develop empathetic skills until later on, and 172 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: they can't roll reverse with with the victims, and so 173 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: instead they want to be there's a natural instinct in 174 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: all of us to want to be part of the 175 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: gossip and part of the story and to see the 176 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: picture that everyone else is seeing and talking about, and 177 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: not to be the like upstander who is like, that's 178 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: actually a sex crime. And everyone who's looking at that 179 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: and has it on their phone and is sending it 180 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: to other minors is is actually engaging in a felony, 181 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, child pornography, like floneous behavior. But the issue 182 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: is that that attitude of a victim blaming and stuff, 183 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: which is really natural in kids. It's also frequently present 184 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: in the administrators, um in the school resource officers who 185 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: are cops, and even in the people UM in the 186 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: parents who get involved, including sometimes the victims parents. A 187 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: lot of times her clients don't take immediate action because 188 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: they're afraid of UM, their parents disciplining them UM. And 189 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: it's just, you know, we talk about consent education and 190 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: how we need to teach kids about consent, but a 191 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: big component of that is is about empathy and just 192 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, doing role reversal exercises where kids have to 193 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: imagine what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes. 194 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's important when we're talking about race 195 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: and gender and and also UM victimization. One of Carrie's clients, 196 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: a Brooklyn team with mental disabilities, was raped in a 197 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: stairwell while at school. When she reported what happened, her 198 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: school counselor decided that she was at fault and spended 199 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: her Sadly, her story is not really that uncommon. School 200 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: aged black and brown girls are more likely to face 201 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: interpersonal violence at school and are also disproportionately criminalized and punished. 202 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: Carrie's client wan a ninety settlement against the city and 203 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: the city spokesperson promised forty seven million dollars annually in 204 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: school climate trading programs. It won't undo the hell she suffered, 205 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: Carrie said, but it will buy her some comfort and healing. 206 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's not necessarily about suing, although I am 207 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: a big believer in that when it's when the circumstances 208 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: are right. But it's it's like making amplifying your boys. 209 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: And I mean sometimes when I would be writing my 210 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: legal complaints in preparation of lawsuits, I would get so 211 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: emotional that I would just go on these like tweeter Twitter, 212 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: like like storms, you know, just like deva fits. But 213 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: even that, you know, those would get retweeted, And by 214 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: the time I filed my complaints, I had a lot 215 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: of earlists that were um that we're in line to 216 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: cover them. Um sometlem It's just like letting the natural 217 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: rage of the injustice let's speak for itself. Let's take 218 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: a quick break enter back. Kley has a real connection 219 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: to our clients. She rages about the injustices they face 220 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: on Twitter. She uses her own experiences to help them 221 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: combat stigma and shame and let them know they're not alone. 222 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: I feel very invested in in um making the process 223 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: of the litigation or getting justice tolerable because they can 224 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: take years and you need you need them to be 225 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: able to to feel like it's worth it, and it's um. 226 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: It's stressful at times, and it can be very um 227 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: invasive of you know, like when you're having to relive 228 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: when you're only sixteen seventeen, you're having to relive this 229 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: awful thing that happened to you when you're thirteen. You 230 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: need you need to like feel like it's it's for 231 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: something really important and um and also just getting back 232 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: to what you're talking about, bridget about how um you know, 233 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: when we're young, we can actually be complicit in some 234 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: of the violation. It makes me think about how much 235 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: more traumatizing it is to be a victim when you're 236 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: when you're young and we were not only have have 237 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: our violators not developed uh, the skill of empathy, but 238 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: the victims haven't figured out how to cope. And you 239 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: can feel like your whole world is crushing around you 240 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: if if you are not only sexually violated, but then 241 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: all the students in your class, you know, think you're 242 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: a jill. They're spreading it and you know you're afraid 243 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: your parents are going to punish you, and you're afraid 244 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: your school's gonna punish you. And like kids are ready 245 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: don't have control over their lives. And and then to 246 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: to be kind of socially ostracized or or put in 247 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: this category of other and have your friendships kind of 248 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: crumble like that is that can create such desperation. Um 249 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: And every single one of our young clients has been 250 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: suicidal during during those moments. It's just like they don't 251 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: have the coping skills. I didn't when I was that age. 252 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: When Carrie was younger, she was victimized by abusive XS. 253 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: One had intimate images of her and vowed to use 254 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: them to ruin her life. This was before revenge porn 255 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: was even really a thing. People didn't know how to 256 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: talk about it or deal with it when it happened, 257 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: and lawyers didn't really know how to handle what she 258 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: was going through. In your book, you talk about how 259 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: you became the lawyer that you you wish you had 260 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: had in your thirties. Can you tell me a bit 261 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: about that? Yeah, Well, I had some uh violence, you know, 262 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: I was the victim of some dating violence and incident 263 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: of sexual violence. Before I started my law firm, and um, 264 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: when I was trying to escape my ex boyfriends stalking 265 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: and he was just besieging me with with text messages 266 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: and threats and and false police reports and it was 267 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: never ending. UM, I had trouble finding a lawyer. UM. 268 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: You know, I I work with somebody on the domestic 269 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: violence piece. I worked with somebody on the um the 270 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: focus criminal complaints peace. But for everyone that I talked to, 271 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: this was a real like abnormal case for them. UM, 272 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: And you know it. You don't want to be the 273 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: the the outlier when it comes to getting legal help 274 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: and having a lawyer. UM, you know, be kind of 275 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: learning as they go, and and it was unpredictable for them, 276 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: you know, what would happen or or kind of the 277 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: profile of my offender was something really new to them. 278 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: And UM, when I finally got my orders of protection 279 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: and he played guilty, which was six months after the breakup, 280 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: M I quit everything and started my law firm a 281 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: few months later, when I was you know, in retrospect, 282 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: I was still in the midst of a lot of trauma. 283 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: But UM, I started this law firm basically to become 284 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: the kind of lawyer that I'd needed because I've gotten 285 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: this kind of involuntary education into um, into into the 286 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: world of of you know, being stalked and having no 287 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: control over what's happening in the Internet. And I learned 288 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: that in New York we didn't have a law criminalizing um, 289 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, somebody sending around your naked pictures. And so 290 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,239 Speaker 1: the internet component of the attack on me was was 291 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: the most scary thing. That um, the scariest part about 292 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: it because even after I got my order of protection, 293 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: I knew that legally he could still be sending around 294 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: my images. He you know, as far as I know, 295 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: he didn't. But but there was always this like thing, 296 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: this that he had threatened to and and he had 297 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: sent me emails saying that he with the picture of 298 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: saying that he'd blind copied um, you know, people that 299 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: I was like other lawyers and judges and stuff. Um. 300 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: But it was like there's a constant anxiety that like 301 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: I wasn't I wasn't protected. Even after all the legal 302 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: issues had had seemingly wrapped up. Kelly became one of 303 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: the most prominent lawyers specializing and revenge born and offers 304 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: victims legal support and a pathway to justice, whatever that 305 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: looks like for them. Our expertise is dealing with people 306 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: who have been stopped and harassed and um, victims of 307 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: sexual assault and sexual trauma, and and getting justice for them. 308 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just about getting in order of protection or 309 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: helping advocate in the criminal justice system, or just sending 310 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: a cease and as system getting the offender to go 311 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: away forever. Other times it's we have to um if 312 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: the victim doesn't want to take any legal action but 313 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: just wants those images to be removed from the Internet. 314 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: And then we also do sometimes have really big cases 315 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: against uh, the City of New York when there's a 316 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: retaliation against a student, or our big case against Grinder 317 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: because we felt they were facilitating our client being stopped. UM, 318 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: but they're there. But basically the whole idea is that 319 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: we every client that comes to us has either been 320 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: attacked or is under attack, and so we know what 321 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: to do. And we've seen all these these behavioral profiles 322 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: over and over again, and the more you do something, 323 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: the more expert you get. And so we we can predict, 324 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, well, by sending a season to this letter 325 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: to this kind of behavioral profile who is mentally ill 326 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: and unrelenting and assess we can know that's just gonna 327 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: escalate things. Um, Whereas oh, this other person, he's threatening 328 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: revenge porn, but he's actually got a really stable job 329 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: and um lives with with and has a kid, and 330 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: she's actually going to feel um scared of a threat 331 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: because it could take things away from from him. More 332 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: after this quick break, let's get right back to it. 333 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: Carrie's case against the dating app Grinder was one of 334 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: the biggest fites of her career. In it, she sets 335 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: her side a legislation called Section to thirty, which basically 336 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: says that tech platforms can't be sued for what people 337 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: say on those platforms. Now, free speech advocates like the 338 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: Electronic Frontier Foundation say Section to thirty is what makes 339 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: the Internet the Internet, but Carrie says that's exactly the problem. 340 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: Forgive me if I like bungle this from my kind 341 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: of like lay person's research, I understand that it really 342 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: comes down to Section to thirty, which I know that 343 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: is something that you really really have an issue with. 344 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: You know, this is the section that allows tech companies 345 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: to not be held liable for things that that are 346 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: said on their platform way that their platforms are used. UM, 347 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: free speech advocates say that that section is like what 348 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: makes the Internet what it is. But you say, that's 349 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: exactly the problem, right, that we should be thinking about 350 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: the Internet in a different way, we should be building 351 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: a different Internet. I guess how do we reconcile those 352 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: two those two arguments. I guess you know, Um, is 353 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: there some way to preserve free speech online while also 354 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: not letting tech companies just like avoid accountability for the 355 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: way that their platforms are are misused. Oh my gosh, 356 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: I have so much to say to this pretinue. You've 357 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: you've framed it like better, better than I could. Our client, 358 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: Matthew Herrick was a waiter slash actor slash former reality 359 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: star who lived in Manhattan in Harlem, and he had 360 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: just ended a relationship with a really controlling and abusive man. 361 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: And among the ways that that man's stalked Matthew was 362 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: he UM started creating fake profiles on Grinder, the gay 363 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: dating app, and then luring people to Matthew's job and 364 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: to his home using Grinder's deal locating technology and d 365 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: m ng with with the unknowing people, and over the 366 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: course of several months over individuals came in person to 367 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: Matthew's apartment and to his job thinking that they were 368 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: there to have sex with him. So imagine, just like 369 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: in the course of this interview, if your buzzer rang 370 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: three times with you know, like it was sometimes as 371 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: many as twenty three people a day, bridget and um, 372 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: and you know, each time he didn't know who it 373 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: was going to be. He didn't know if that person 374 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: was going to be dangerous. Sometimes, Um, Matthew's X would 375 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: would torment and taunt the visitors and say home of 376 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: full big or racist things, or say that Matthew had 377 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: free drugs, and so sometimes the visitors would um come 378 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: really angry or tweaked out. Um, but always they were 379 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 1: there thinking that Matthew had had great fantasies and and stuff. So, 380 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: I mean, it was scary, like it was. It was 381 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: a crime that was happening to Matthew day in and 382 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: day out, every single day. And Matthew had gone to 383 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: the police ten times, he'd gotten an order protection that 384 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: the offender was violating over and over again, and nothing 385 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: nothing mattered. Matthew flagged the accounts with Reinder about fifty 386 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: times by the time we came along, and then I was, Um, 387 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: I had just worked with a bunch of big tech 388 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: companies at the time. This is like, um, the fall 389 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: or the the end of and I've worked with a 390 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: bunch of tech companies on the revenge porn policies. And 391 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: so I was super like, I'll just call up Grinder's 392 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: general counsel and get them to remove this this user. 393 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: And they ignored me too, and so I was like raging, 394 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: raging with him, and we UM ended up getting a 395 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: restraining order against Grinder UM saying that they had to 396 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: remove this user, which you know, it's not super common 397 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: to get a restrainding order against a tech company, UM, 398 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: but we got it. And Grinder even ignored that the 399 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: visitors kept coming and we UM, as we you know, 400 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: plotted our lawsuit against Grinder, we had to worry about, 401 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: UM the communications de since the Act Section to thirty, 402 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: which was this law as you mentioned, that went into 403 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: effect UM back in UH five when the Internet looked 404 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: nothing like it does now. And UM the law was 405 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: actually you know, it's just a twenty six word law 406 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: that was part of a bigger law that basically banned 407 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: pornography on the Internet. But the other part of that 408 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: law got got deemed unconstitutional. Case you're wondering, um, why 409 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: we have porn on the internet, Um, it's it's not 410 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: constitutional to to outlaw it. But but this little section survived, 411 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: and it originally was was supposed to just make it 412 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: so that you know, if if a bulletin board, which 413 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: was basically the way that you know, people talked to 414 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: one another online, if if somebody posted something defamatory UM 415 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: on the bulletin board, there wouldn't be a lawsuit against 416 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: the bulletin board, but but the defamation would be user 417 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: to user. And you know, it kind of makes sense 418 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: because then, um, the platforms are not tasked with this 419 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: burden of of having to moderate all all the speech 420 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: and all the posts and stuff like that. But the 421 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: issue is that over the last you know, five years, UM, 422 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: that law has been interpreted by our courts in this 423 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: really expansive way. And so anytime you know, Twitter or 424 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: Facebook or anybody gets sued for something that's happening to 425 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: a user, they say, we're not liable because of section 426 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: to thirty. Um, you know, like you can't hold this 427 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: accountable for anything that one user does to another. And 428 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: courts of you know, said you're right, because all the 429 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: other cases before you didn't. It's important to emphasize that 430 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: Carrie isn't just talking about what someone says on a platform. 431 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: If a platform allows an abusive user to impersonate you 432 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: and set you up for a dangerous encounter in real life, 433 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: it's a pretty big flaw. The issue is that the 434 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: Internet and apps and and you know are so much 435 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: different now than they were. And we're not just talking 436 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: about defamation. We're talking about you know, geolocating technology and um, 437 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 1: you know, social media companies which have so much function ability, 438 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: and we're talking about you know, dating apps, you know, 439 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: and apps that are playing a role in matching users 440 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: and so but we had to make it when we 441 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: were filing this lawsuit so that we were not suing 442 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: Grinder for anything that Matt's X was doing to Matt, 443 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: because we knew it would get kicked out of court 444 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: for violating Section to thirty. And so when Grinder's lawyers 445 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: finally came to court and told us that they didn't 446 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: have the technology to ban an abusive user, we were like, what, Like, 447 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: you have the world's biggest dating app and it's so foreseeable, 448 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: the big biggest dating app, you know, for for gay people, 449 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: it's so foreseeable. But sometimes it's going to be abused 450 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: by stalkers, by predators, and you've not designed into it 451 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: like a way to stop abusive users. Well, then you've 452 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: you've released a dangerous product into the stream of commerce. 453 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: And just like our product liability laws for cars you 454 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: know that have air bags that don't go off, or 455 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: or broken bread breaks or something like, Grinder had created 456 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: a dangerous product and we say you shouldn't have been 457 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: on the market in the first place. And the fact 458 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: that you are, well, that's how we're gonna sue you. 459 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: Grinder still said, you're at the end of the day, 460 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: you're still holding us liable for stuff that's users done 461 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 1: to Matthew. It's not us. And the judge agreed with 462 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: with Grinder, And we appealed and and and kept losing 463 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: at every stage and ultimately petitioned to the Supreme Court 464 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: and lost and um which happened. You know, this was 465 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: from the beginning a re I'll um. It was a 466 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: very experimental lawsuit, Like at the time that we filed it, 467 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: it was novel for us to even be for anybody 468 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: to even be referring to UM apps as products. Everyone 469 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: was saying their services, their services. But but now this 470 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: idea has caught on and UM and it's kind of 471 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: changed the way that UM that we think about apps 472 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: and Internet products. And the fact that we did have 473 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: such you know that Mattithew experienced such a horrific thing 474 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: and he couldn't get justice. That's actually helped us fight 475 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: for legislation. And and so as you mentioned, you've got 476 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: all these people on the other side that And I 477 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: don't actually think it's all these people. I think they're 478 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: just very vocal and they're getting paid a lot of 479 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: lobbying money from from big tech. Is the Internet we 480 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: have now working for everyone? Is that the version of 481 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: the Internet we want? Is it one worth preserving as is? 482 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: Karen doesn't really think so. But they're saying that UM 483 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: basically the Internet as we know it when it exists 484 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: UM without section two three, and we're going to lose 485 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, all the this wonderful free exchange of ideas 486 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: if we if we lose section two three. And I 487 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: hoped total bs on that, because number one, you're assuming 488 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: that the Internet as we know it is a great 489 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: place and as we know it like should be you know, 490 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: like preserved just you know, it's kind of like any 491 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: constitutional argument or or make America great again. You're assuming 492 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: that it is. The things are great, um and you 493 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: know you're assuming that you know that everyone has the 494 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: same level of free speech. But I mean speech on 495 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: the Internet really belongs to those were the loudest and 496 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: and you know, for basically for companies Amazon, Facebook, Um, 497 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: Microsoft and Apple. I mean they control the Internet and 498 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: we've got all our our issues with with anti trust 499 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: um and and then you and also the quantity, So 500 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: the most hostile people on the Internet are the ones 501 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: who have the greatest protections. Um. But also when we're 502 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: talking about lawsuits and and the right to sue, it's 503 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: such a fundamental right. Carrie says that as long as 504 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: tech companies have the kind of legal protection afforded to 505 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: them by Section to thirty, it creates a situation where 506 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of avenues to hold them accountable. 507 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: You know. Like the thing is like as you see 508 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: with our our cases against the New York City Department Bed, 509 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: like for the cost of an index number, which is 510 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 1: a couple hundred bucks, which you can get waived. I 511 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: had a client who you know, whose mom was a 512 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: part time home healthy and didn't speak English, you know, 513 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: and they had they had no money to speak of. 514 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: I had her suing the city of New York, which 515 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: is where multibillion you know, multibillion dollar dollars. And that's 516 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: the great equalizer in our country is that anybody can sue, 517 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: even you know, if there's been a harm. And and 518 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: it's it's fundamental and it's also how we keep our 519 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: big organizations are companies from being total assholes because the 520 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: threat of being being sued is is hits you in 521 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: the bottom you know, it's a bottom line issue. It 522 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: costs money and um and it's what you know, like 523 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: so many safety measures, whether we're talking about pharma, suitables, 524 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: or cars, it's because of litigation that happened, or it's 525 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: because of the fear of litigation. And also it's because 526 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: most companies want people to be safe. They want their 527 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: customers and clients to not have a bad experience. You 528 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: don't see that with big tech though, you know, like 529 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: the the wall off, you know, like if you had 530 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: a crisis on Facebook. If let's say you're a parent 531 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: and your kid was manipulated into giving nudes to a 532 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: pedophile and then he was sharing them online. You're a parent, 533 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: your first instinct was who you know? Is who do 534 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: I talk to? Who do I talk to? What's the 535 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: phone number? Who's live to help me with this crisis? 536 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: And it's just like a one way street here where 537 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: we're giving these companies all this information about us and 538 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: and and stuff, and we can't. I mean, they are 539 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: like it's like OZ, like they're the behind this magic 540 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: curtain and don't have to in act with us users. 541 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: As you were talking, it occurred to me that when 542 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: you first started your law firm, the idea of revenge 543 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: porn didn't even really exist, And it was through advocating 544 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: for legal protections and working with victims that you helped 545 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: us are in both a legal change and a cultural 546 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: reimagining of what revenge porn actually is. And in listening 547 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: to you talk about tech companies just now, it seems 548 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: like you're poised to do that same kind of thing 549 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: again when it comes to reimagining what role tech companies 550 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: should play in creating an Internet that's safe for everyone, 551 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: like a hard reset of how these companies operate. Yeah, 552 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's true, Bridget there's so much there's 553 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: so much work that can be done, and like it's 554 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: it's a really critical time because you have all this 555 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: concentrated power and wealth in such a few number of 556 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, just a few companies, and that the inequality 557 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: in our in our society is just getting greater, you know, 558 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: because of these companies, because and and also of power, 559 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: and the omniscience is also you know another thing that's 560 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: just creating so much more inequalities and in our country. 561 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: And the thing is, I do have so many cases 562 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: where it's you can't ignore that the facts are horrific. 563 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: You know, an eleven year old who was sex started 564 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: and made to create all these videos and they were 565 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: sent around on Instagram, or my my client who's who 566 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: was who's murder was basically life streamed um or another 567 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: client who was raped and murdered on a first date 568 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: through match dot Com by a known sex offender. Like 569 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: there's gonna come become a point where the more cases 570 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: like that, Okay, if even if these cases can't be 571 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: brought in court, get kicked out, Like you can't deny 572 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: that there is extreme negligence by these companies and we're 573 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: just I'm gonna just keep producing them until we get 574 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: new law. And it's just like any other case where 575 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: if you don't feel like you can become a victim, 576 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: then you're not going to care. But the whole purpose 577 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: of my book and and everything is to is to 578 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: pound into this and into the consciousness that we're all 579 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: a moment away from becoming victims. Like all it takes 580 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: is one person to decide they want to destroy you. 581 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,959 Speaker 1: One bad interaction at the supermarket with somebody who finds 582 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: out your name. They then have the right to to, 583 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: you know, go to pedophile websites and and tell the 584 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: world that you're a pedophile. And good luck getting that down, 585 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, Like, um, it's anybody can become a victim, 586 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: but it shouldn't take that in order for us to 587 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: have empathy toward victims and want to change the Internet. 588 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: And it's you know, like this we're not talking about 589 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, somebody call somebody else a bitch on Twitter. 590 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: That's not the kind of speech that's going to be impacted. 591 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: And we're not even talking about speech really because this 592 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: is all conduct, you know, And but our law doesn't 593 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: even see the difference there I would, you know, like 594 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: with Grinder, we weren't suing them for any words of 595 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: the profile or any words on the d M. We 596 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: were suing them because this product was being used, you know, 597 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: hundreds of times a day to try to get get 598 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: our client injured. It's not a speech issue. This is unjust. 599 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: Kenny's work isn't just about the law. It confronts the 600 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: cultural attitude that people who are victimized online deserve it, 601 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: or that it's just a sexy scandal rather than a 602 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: serious crime, or that we should just expect that the 603 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: internet is a place where we'll be mistreated. Why can't 604 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: it be better than that? So, what has it been 605 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: like to have such a personal hand in challenging the 606 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,959 Speaker 1: internet to be better and safer and stronger and working 607 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: to build one where people will power are held accountable. Well, 608 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: it's it's so kind of you too to describe me 609 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: that way if you really, um feel flattered about that. Um, 610 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 1: you know, I love my job and I love that 611 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: as the owner of this law firm, I can decide 612 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: what direction we go in and what fights to choose. 613 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that is an incredibly privileged and inquisition to 614 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: be in. And you know, like there are ways to 615 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: use your law degree in a super awesome, fun, creative way. 616 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: I mean, what's it been like? It's just like been fun. 617 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: But there aren't moments where I wake up and I 618 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, I'm just like really, you know, I've 619 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: done it, you know, like like I've made it, because 620 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: there's always, um, somebody waiting to give me a bad 621 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: verdict or you know, a troll that you know cuts 622 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: me down to size, or you know, like, um, there's 623 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, there there's very fleeting moments of um, well 624 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: what should I call fleeting moments of like success. I'm 625 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: proud of what we do. I'm so proud of my staff, um, 626 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: but we're always humbled by by the next fight. On 627 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: her website, Carrie says the clients she works with aren't 628 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: fragile like a flower. They're fragile like a bomb. Through 629 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: her work with those clients, Carrie is blowing up our 630 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: understanding of the Internet by asking the big, bold questions 631 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: about how it can be better. She's taken the darkness 632 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: she faced and used it to build a brighter future. 633 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. 634 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 635 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: just want to say hi. We'd love to hear from 636 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: you at Hello at Tango dot com. Disinformed brought to 637 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's 638 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Unbust Creative. Jonathan Strickland 639 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our supervising producer, 640 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: and engineer. Michael Lamato is our contributing producer. I'm your 641 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: host Bridget Tod. For more great podcasts, check out the 642 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.