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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and I'm from to Steph.

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Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radio. Okay, Annie, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't even know why I'm asking you this question

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Speaker 1: because I already know you have ten thousand. But we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna say, what is your number one guilty pleasure?

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Speaker 1: Oh well, it's only a big question because I know

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Speaker 1: you've got ten thousand guilty pleasures and they should be guilty.

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Speaker 1: But if it's about to shape and be like, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say it's guilty. Definitely, fan fiction it's probably my

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Speaker 1: number one. And also things that are related to that,

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Speaker 1: like making costumes that I might wear once ever, um,

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Speaker 1: and also like rewatching Star Wars all the time and

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Speaker 1: replaying video games that I've already played when I have

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Speaker 1: a million other video games should play. Okay, that's fair,

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Speaker 1: And you also like people playing it for you so

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Speaker 1: you can watch, yes, and then solve my little heart out. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and you solve your a little hot you saw very loudly.

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Speaker 1: I love it, right. I think I've had so many different,

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Speaker 1: like I would say guilty and I'm putting air quotes pleasures.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, a lot of them do include be watching things.

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Speaker 1: But as we've talked before, I love a good rom com.

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Speaker 1: I love a good uh you know, easy going smiley. Oh,

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Speaker 1: isn't that cute type of movie, which is surprising for

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Speaker 1: my personality, I think because I am so fairly sardonic

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Speaker 1: in real life. But it does. I do enjoy some

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Speaker 1: of those things I loved trying to think well, my

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Speaker 1: favorite one is I think I actually really liked About

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Speaker 1: Time Together, and I loved it so much that I

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Speaker 1: would watch it on repeat because it just felt like

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Speaker 1: a nice, warm hug. It really was like, there's just

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Speaker 1: enough embarrassing moments, and I, yes, I do love Doumble.

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Speaker 1: I am aware. I am aware, so for sure something

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Speaker 1: that I think I get into. But that is kind

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Speaker 1: of what we wanted to focus and look at because

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Speaker 1: I actually rewatched Twilight for the first time in years,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna lie. I was definitely one of

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Speaker 1: those that got caught up in the in the books

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I must know, this is amazing,

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Speaker 1: and then kind of looking back on it, I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: someone thinks are problematic. Maybe I should have sat back

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Speaker 1: and really thought about this, But I definitely enjoyed the

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Speaker 1: hell out of it. Y'all may be listening to this

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Speaker 1: since it's not gonna be released till February. And yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, February is really hard award for me, so

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Speaker 1: the mother is gonna be really annoying for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people from my stance. But yes, happy February, Yes,

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Speaker 1: happy February. Happy February, but it is still January for

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Speaker 1: us towards the end of the month is one. So

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Speaker 1: this shouldn't be any kind of like outdated information because

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Speaker 1: we're just doing but of course, because we were thinking

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Speaker 1: about what this month and paid of course Valentine's Day

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Speaker 1: happens in this month, and just kind of the whole

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Speaker 1: romance in the air, New Year's has happened, and you know,

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Speaker 1: people have those goals. We've got to have a match

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Speaker 1: before Valentine's Day. And as I was watching things like

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Speaker 1: Twilight and I enjoying myself as it was funny, like

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Speaker 1: I love it still, but it's funny year to me

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Speaker 1: now in what context it is and a little bit

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Speaker 1: cringe worthy sometimes the movie, not necessarily the book, but

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Speaker 1: the movie for sure. I was like, what is this

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Speaker 1: about romance? What is it that makes us like get

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Speaker 1: so caught up in it, and we already know as

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Speaker 1: a money maker it was anyways, especially when it comes

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Speaker 1: to books and yes, songs and movies and all these things.

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Speaker 1: So we kind of wanted to delve into women and

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Speaker 1: romance specifically to that. And of course, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of like the thing with the boy bands and standing.

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Speaker 1: It kind of has that romantic like need you feel

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Speaker 1: like you know them. It means a lot of interest,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of brings people together even and it's

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Speaker 1: some money making industry, it really is. When I started

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Speaker 1: looking at some of the things that were like getting

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Speaker 1: the big bucks, I was like, go, well, damn, I

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Speaker 1: should have done some of this. Maybe I'm just too late.

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Speaker 1: I'm tired. When we started adding up all the different

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Speaker 1: loves of entertainment within this industry, we realized, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this is a really big topic. And it turned out

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Speaker 1: to be a two parter. So, yeah, this is gonna

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Speaker 1: be in two episodes because y'all, the amount of information

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Speaker 1: that both of us gotten, it's extensive. And we're also

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about one of Annie's loves in here,

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Speaker 1: which is fan fiction, and yes, that is definitely she

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Speaker 1: went in. She was ready for this part. Yes, for

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Speaker 1: this I cracked my knuckles neck. Yes, So for this

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Speaker 1: part one of our broad look at women and romance,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be focusing mainly on writing, so both literature

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Speaker 1: and yes, fan fiction. And then in part two we're

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Speaker 1: gonna look at more visual mediums like movies, TV and

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Speaker 1: video games, which yes that was me, but also boy

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Speaker 1: bands and the like. So why we love some while

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Speaker 1: we love romantic music, I mean we can also talk

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Speaker 1: about Taylor Swift a little bit. Oh yeah, Samantha is

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Speaker 1: doing that research. So I'm like, oh, I am kind

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Speaker 1: of on the outside of this other than yes, what

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Speaker 1: I picked up from fan fiction. So I'm excited. I'm excited.

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Speaker 1: But yes, let's start with literature and romance novels. So

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Speaker 1: master class dot com defines romance novels as quote a

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Speaker 1: work of extended prose fiction with a theme of love,

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Speaker 1: and according to the romance Writers of America, it must

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Speaker 1: have quote a central focus on the development of a

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Speaker 1: romantic relationship between two people, and that it must also

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Speaker 1: have and quote emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending. Huh. Very interesting.

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Speaker 1: And though we will be talking about the steamy or

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Speaker 1: sexually explicit romance versions. Sex is not a criteria for

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Speaker 1: a novel to be classified as a romance, and the

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Speaker 1: romance can be found in any book that doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: make it a romance and novel. I also want to

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Speaker 1: add in here is probably pretty obvious, but we're not

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Speaker 1: talking about pornography necessarily. And also you can see our

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Speaker 1: Women Heart Monsters episodes for more on that kind of

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Speaker 1: like Women and Bigfoot romance novels, because we talked about

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Speaker 1: that a little bit. According to an article by Writing

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Speaker 1: Cooperative dot Com, if there's or more of the book

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Speaker 1: that centers around a romantic relationship, then yes it is

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Speaker 1: a romance novel. Right. So again, Masterclass has an option

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Speaker 1: in where it teaches you how to write romance novels.

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Speaker 1: By the way, we're not sponsored by them, and just

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Speaker 1: happened that they had a lot of information. So according

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Speaker 1: to them and the Romantic Writers of America, there are

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Speaker 1: two types of romance, which is category or series romance

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Speaker 1: and single title romance. The category is a series romance

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Speaker 1: or quote number of books that are released in intervals,

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Speaker 1: usually monthly, and they are in sequential order. And then

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Speaker 1: single titles are not necessarily standalons. They can be but

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Speaker 1: are not sequential, and can be connected to other works

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Speaker 1: or characters that the author has, but typically not delineated titles.

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Speaker 1: And we also are going to talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the subgenres, but there's a lot which include historical romance,

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Speaker 1: romantic suspense, paranormal romance, science fiction, and more. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to jump into them a bit more. But before

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Speaker 1: we do, we do want to talk about the history

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Speaker 1: of romance novels. Yes, because there's a long history there.

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Speaker 1: They're not new. There's definitely been some growth and change,

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Speaker 1: and romance novels have made a lot of money also

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Speaker 1: stirred a lot of feathers in their day. The first

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Speaker 1: published works of romance novels date back to the eighteenth

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Speaker 1: century and some of the authors include the Bronte Sisters

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Speaker 1: Jane Austen and Samuel Richardson and and Redcoff. Oh and

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Speaker 1: fan fiction fun fact Samantha, did you know that Jane

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Speaker 1: Austen was one of the first authors to have fan fiction. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They were called Austin Knights and she actually liked it.

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Speaker 1: A lot of other people at the time were like

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Speaker 1: trying to steal my work, but she was like, yeah, cool,

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Speaker 1: it's all about letting women work makeup stories she liked.

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Speaker 1: But okay, more on that later. Jumping ahead. Of course,

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Speaker 1: most of these works, um were stories of heterosexual white

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Speaker 1: women who were fighting or struggling some of the social

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Speaker 1: norms or overcoming their circumstances, things like that, and then

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Speaker 1: we're ultimately rewarded with a good husband and a good future. Right,

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Speaker 1: And we should also know that that, of course, our

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Speaker 1: can be romance novels and romance somebody's found in the

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Speaker 1: Greek era as well, but I don't think it's noted

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Speaker 1: because there's not necessarily authors that we know of. We

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Speaker 1: know there's adventures and that could be romance perceived in

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Speaker 1: those as well. A lot of the Greek mythology could

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Speaker 1: be romance, but that was not necessarily centered as a

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Speaker 1: larger story. So again, romance novels have been around. Yes,

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Speaker 1: romance stories, romance novels. It's I mean, we had to

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Speaker 1: draw the line somewhere else the whole show. As we

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Speaker 1: move on to the twentieth century, we are introduced to

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Speaker 1: a revitalization of romance novels like Gone with the Wind

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Speaker 1: and Rebecca, which leaned towards the more gothic romance novels,

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Speaker 1: which is like a bit of horror splashed in there

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Speaker 1: with the romance. Yes, you gotta have some good thriller moments.

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Speaker 1: But then we moved to the fifties and sixties, which

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Speaker 1: takes a bit more of an exotic turn. And when

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Speaker 1: I say that, I meant places. We have a shift

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Speaker 1: with roll leading women who are career focused careers such

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Speaker 1: as nursing and being a stewardess at that time, and

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Speaker 1: of course more traveling and exotic locations. And then as

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Speaker 1: we go up to the seventies, we have a bit

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Speaker 1: of a modern turn as gay romance actually becomes more

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Speaker 1: popular or at least more accepted. Um And the first

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Speaker 1: best selling gay novel was written by Gordon Merrick uh

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Speaker 1: and it was called The Lord Won't Mind, and it

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Speaker 1: was published in nineteen seventy. And of course it should

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Speaker 1: be mentioned that queer romance novels have been around even

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Speaker 1: before then, but as expected, was overshadowed or shamed for

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Speaker 1: its content, and even till today, even though it's a

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Speaker 1: little more accepted, it is still not as widely accepted

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Speaker 1: as your heterost normative white women being the main character

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Speaker 1: focus and While we're talking about seventies, we couldn't forget

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Speaker 1: the beginning of a new subgenre known as the bodice

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Speaker 1: ripping genre. Kathleen E. Woody Whist published The Flame and

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Speaker 1: the Flower in nineteen seventy two, which started the bodice

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Speaker 1: ripping genre. Now, this was specific to the type of

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Speaker 1: stories written, which often included sexually explicit historical fiction. And yes,

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Speaker 1: these usually included women who were virgins but headstrong and

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Speaker 1: independent who attracted the attention of the alpha male that

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Speaker 1: wanted to seduce tam and dominate her. The earlier narratives

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Speaker 1: usually included some type of abuse a rape within the stories,

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Speaker 1: but have eventually evolved no longer promote such plotlines like that.

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Speaker 1: But obviously those kind of influences do still linger, right,

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Speaker 1: And we can say that with things like Fifty Shades

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Speaker 1: of Gray. Yeah, and although again it's consensual in that book,

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Speaker 1: but it definitely still leads to that idea and concept

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Speaker 1: and desires. And though what it was was the first

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Speaker 1: to be recognized, and many Arthur's are well known first

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Speaker 1: baby novels, we know them Jackie Collins, Danielle Still, and

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Speaker 1: Nora Roberts, who are still pretty popular, and I know

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Speaker 1: that I don't know if I've ever read any of

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Speaker 1: their books. I think I've actually read a Nora Roberts book.

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Speaker 1: I think I found a copy of one in my

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Speaker 1: friend's mom's bathroom. Oh yeah, definitely remember those times of

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Speaker 1: seeing the shelves and rows of it and I was like,

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Speaker 1: what is this as a pretat to pulling it out?

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I will come through to find the

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Speaker 1: sexy bits. But man, you know, but I think that's

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Speaker 1: the only time I've ever read her stuff. And they

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Speaker 1: aren't getting popular. And along with the famous authors, HarperCollins

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Speaker 1: Publishing established a new division called the Harlequin Publishing And

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Speaker 1: I know that's familiar to everyone. Uh. They actually started

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Speaker 1: out in Canada and started buying out all these other

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Speaker 1: publishing companies to distribute through the Harlequin Publishing house. And

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Speaker 1: associated with Harlequin is the one and only because I

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Speaker 1: I love it, Mr Romance cover Fabio. And if you

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Speaker 1: don't know who I'm talking about, I'll be very sad

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Speaker 1: because you need to know what I'm talking about, which

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Speaker 1: is he's an Italian model who is tall, always shirtless,

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Speaker 1: and the wind blowing in his long blonde locks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very square. Jow also been in Sharknado five. He played

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Speaker 1: the pope did he Okay? So he's really popular and

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Speaker 1: he landed commercial deals. He laded, even his own book deal.

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Speaker 1: I actually owned one of his books, which was an

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Speaker 1: amazing garage self find, and I was so proud of

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Speaker 1: it that it became a part of one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite Halloween costumes. We're not gonna talk about what it was,

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Speaker 1: but I would carry it around and read it out

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Speaker 1: to people as a part of my character. Loved it

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Speaker 1: so much, and then I lent it out to someone.

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Speaker 1: I never got it back, and I've been so upset

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Speaker 1: ever since, because I mean, it's a Fabio book for you,

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Speaker 1: and you know there's a special partner you found in

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Speaker 1: the garage, Like you could go get another one, but

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't be the same. No, It's like I didn't

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Speaker 1: know Fabio had his own books. Yeah, of course it

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Speaker 1: was Fabio with so and so like definitely was that.

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Speaker 1: But he was the center, mel protagonist hero in these books.

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Speaker 1: And man, I have fun memories of that book, just

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Speaker 1: being able to go around and read it with people.

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Speaker 1: I will say I suspect that Fabio is one of

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Speaker 1: the main reasons we're doing this episode listeners because Samantha

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Speaker 1: kept bringing him up. I mean, you can't talk about

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Speaker 1: romance novels, especially those quintessential romance novels, without knowing exactly

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Speaker 1: who Fabio is. And as a fact, there's a blog

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Speaker 1: specifically that I went to is you was talking about

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Speaker 1: when we talk about Fabio, what we talked about when

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Speaker 1: we talk about Fabio and trying to turn the phrase

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Speaker 1: of like, okay, not all romance novels are based on

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Speaker 1: him or like him or the ones with him on it.

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Speaker 1: Trying to, you know, talk about what romance really is

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Speaker 1: and how you know, great it can be. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I know. Well, I'm happy we got to

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Speaker 1: touch on it. And as we do approach the more

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Speaker 1: modern level of romance novels, we can talk more about

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Speaker 1: diversity within these genres because it's not surprising to see

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Speaker 1: how little credit or attention unfortunately that is given or

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Speaker 1: not give been too marginalized writers and authors who have

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Speaker 1: been involved in the romance genre. Yeah, specifically to black authors.

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Speaker 1: The more recognized authors like Beverly Jenkins, whose novel Night

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Speaker 1: Song debuted in ninety four, and Alissa Cole who was

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Speaker 1: more of the modern writers of the romance genre. However,

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Speaker 1: black romance authors can be found in the nineteenth century,

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Speaker 1: such as author Frances E. W. Harper, who wrote Iola

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Speaker 1: Leroy in eight two and just in case you're wondering

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Speaker 1: the plot, because I definitely was like, I need to

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Speaker 1: know what this plot was. The book centers around Iola Leroy,

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Speaker 1: a woman who is multiracial, so she is described as

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Speaker 1: being one eighth black and then white because at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, essentially rape was happening within those enslaved communities.

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Speaker 1: And however, in this specific relationship, she talks about the

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Speaker 1: fact that her mother was white passing as they sayd

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Speaker 1: and she and her family were white passing, and her

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Speaker 1: mother and a white man fell in love, got married

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Speaker 1: and did all these things. After the father died, his sister,

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Speaker 1: I believe, ends up selling them into enslavement. And part

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Speaker 1: of the beginning of the book is pretty much people

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Speaker 1: who came together as the abolitionist movement and joining the Union,

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Speaker 1: and in that the Union Army came and rescued Iola

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Speaker 1: from her enslavement in North Carolina and take her away.

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Speaker 1: And during this time she becomes a nurse, and she

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Speaker 1: reunites with her family, finds a love interest, and finds

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Speaker 1: her identity as a black woman in this time and

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Speaker 1: in this era, and she progresses with a lot of

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Speaker 1: the characters within the book in fighting for rights and

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Speaker 1: equal rights and or equal opportunities. And so it definitely

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Speaker 1: tackles issues of biases and racism and the and and

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Speaker 1: the idea in the even progressive areas into her leading

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Speaker 1: into finding love and success and reclaiming their own land

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Speaker 1: and finding their h e a which is called happily

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Speaker 1: ever After within the romance context. So it's a really

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Speaker 1: interesting book. And I do think that that's something that

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Speaker 1: we need to talk about, is there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: specifically black female writers who kind of take it back

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Speaker 1: to civil rights time and era to talk about the history,

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Speaker 1: to talk about the chocity, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: it's not focused on that is focused on finding love

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Speaker 1: and hill and again, like the Happily ever After, bringing

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Speaker 1: it into a different light. So there's this conversation that

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Speaker 1: black women will not enjoy it as much, even though

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Speaker 1: a higher number of black women are likely to read literature,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily romance novels, because it's so directly towards white women,

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Speaker 1: but that are likely to read it and in a

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Speaker 1: part of readerships that they will not like historical fiction

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Speaker 1: because black history in America is ugly. So there's this

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Speaker 1: level of connotations of what this could mean. But the

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Speaker 1: fact of the matter is and also ostracizes and alienate

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Speaker 1: eight black writers so that they are not able to

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Speaker 1: be a part of this community, which it should be

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Speaker 1: filled with this community and talk about stories like this.

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Speaker 1: So it's an interesting concept. It's just now being addressed

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Speaker 1: within the romance novels and that's really unfortunate. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this one story, I'm pretty interested. I want to go

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Speaker 1: back and pick it up too. I know we've talked

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Speaker 1: about authors before and novelists and fiction writers before, but

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Speaker 1: this is definitely a different context. And knowing that it

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Speaker 1: was published in two and we haven't really talked about

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Speaker 1: it enough. Yeah, man, romance novel recommendation sent a man.

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Speaker 1: So now that we've talked about the history, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about why this genre is so successful. So, not surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: women make up eighty two percent of the readership of

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Speaker 1: romance novels according to Romance Writers of America, and the

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Speaker 1: average age of readers ranges from thirty five to thirty

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Speaker 1: nine years old, and also, not too surprisingly, the majority

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Speaker 1: of readers are white seventy of them, and heterosexual. And

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Speaker 1: as we look at the history of the romance genre,

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Speaker 1: a large majority was written specifically to that certain circumstance.

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Speaker 1: For example, both Jane Austen and the Bronte Sisters often

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Speaker 1: wrote in defiance of the current ideas of courtship and

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Speaker 1: beauty and societal ex patients, which allow for women in

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Speaker 1: that time frame to imagine being able to have the

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Speaker 1: ability to live that openly. So you have definitely. One

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Speaker 1: of my favorite books is Persuasions by Jane Austen, and

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Speaker 1: the main character is not known for her beauty. But

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, she's not ugly, but she's not

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Speaker 1: known for her beauty. And the way they kind of

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Speaker 1: story unfolds. Of course, she finds her man who ends

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Speaker 1: up being rich, but at that point that didn't know.

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Speaker 1: It's just the whole thing, and of course the circumstances,

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Speaker 1: the fact that they are all women, there's no men,

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Speaker 1: and or the men have taken away money from them,

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Speaker 1: and or they don't get the inheritance and what does

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Speaker 1: this look like? But everything works out in the end

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Speaker 1: and then also Jane Eyre is that same line. She's

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Speaker 1: not pretty woman at all, but there's this the gothic

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Speaker 1: element of something hiding in the attic. But everything works

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Speaker 1: out just fine because he's blind. All good? Right? Oh,

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Speaker 1: and she's dead and the ex wife is dead. Okay, no,

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Speaker 1: Regina here, No, I've read Bouthering Heights for school Weathering Heights. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good one, but it's a little different. Also gothic. Yess.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Would you say most of the writers are

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Speaker 1: female as well? Or yes? So when we get later

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Speaker 1: on in the statistics, it actually shows like I think,

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Speaker 1: eighty two percent of them a two percent of the

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Speaker 1: products and production and the writing all our women. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna come back to that later because

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Speaker 1: I have a fun But we can watch the transformation

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Speaker 1: of these ideas as we hit the fifties, with the

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Speaker 1: desire for travel or going outside of being the dutiful

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Speaker 1: housewife and what a life of exotic adventures and independence

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Speaker 1: would be like. As Helen Taylor, professor at University of

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Speaker 1: Exeter wrote, romance novels have quote an escape element of reading,

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Speaker 1: which could be quote equated with secretive indulgence and sweet things.

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Speaker 1: The see pallet pleasing power of the forbidden and romance

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Speaker 1: quote allows a declaration of independence. Yeah. She goes on

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Speaker 1: to talk about how it's not something that the reader

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Speaker 1: women think they are going to get or is attainable,

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Speaker 1: but it's all about the idea that they can for

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Speaker 1: a moment, walk away from their normal to something fantastical.

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Speaker 1: She kept comparing it to foods and junk food and

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Speaker 1: just binging on something that's not necessarily the most healthy,

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Speaker 1: but really satisfying for the moment. But the other uppill

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Speaker 1: of this type of genre is the massive amount of

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Speaker 1: content that is written and produced by women. It's literally

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Speaker 1: created by women for women. And though we talked about

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Speaker 1: this earlier, is obviously they're more notable or well known

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Speaker 1: or geared toward the white cis female. It is changing

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Speaker 1: as more and more representation is being seen, as we

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Speaker 1: see up and coming authors are able to deliver diverse

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Speaker 1: content and are getting the recognition they deserve. And as

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Speaker 1: many articles will point out, it allows for women to

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Speaker 1: be the more three dimensional characters instead of being just

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Speaker 1: killed off for the plotline, and who are more likely

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Speaker 1: to lead the story. And if you look closely at

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Speaker 1: the more recent toys. They allow for the reader to

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Speaker 1: be the heroine, so they don't describe them in as

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Speaker 1: much detail, Like they give you a small description of

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Speaker 1: like she's this way in her personality. She's shy, she's

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Speaker 1: the mirror. She's this, she's like some of the white.

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Speaker 1: She's a litt chubbier, she's not a perfect woman. All

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Speaker 1: these things which allow for like how many women see

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Speaker 1: themselves like, I'm not perfect. This is me, I'm awkward,

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Speaker 1: I'm shy. Oh yeah, So they get to be that

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Speaker 1: leading hero and while being able to safely take risk

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Speaker 1: with that mysterious or ideal partner that they've been looking

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Speaker 1: for fantasizing about. Right, and the industry is a multibillion

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Speaker 1: dollar industry and it outperforms all other genres on a

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Speaker 1: consistent basis. In romance made up of the overall fiction market,

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Speaker 1: the production workforce is made up of women, according to

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Speaker 1: a Publishing Weekly survey, and in fact, in romance and erotica,

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Speaker 1: where the top earning genres with the incredible amount of

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Speaker 1: one point forty four billion dollars out grossing all other genres. Right, so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the production and the writers are mainly women and it's

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Speaker 1: pretty fascinating to see. Which also we're gonna talk a

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Speaker 1: bit more about just right now in a few seconds,

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Speaker 1: about the shame factor. Why are their works being so

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Speaker 1: looked down on and why do we have this cringe

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Speaker 1: worthy effect when someone talks about harlequent novels or romance novels. Again,

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Speaker 1: as we just said, when we talk about romance novels,

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Speaker 1: we know there's stigma that surrounds it. When we talk

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Speaker 1: about romance novels, it gets referred to as trashy novels,

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Speaker 1: or my guilty pleasure, or bodice ripping novels, or horny

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Speaker 1: housewife novels, or even just porn as some people would say,

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Speaker 1: and it's often used to shame readers for their choices

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Speaker 1: of romantic novels. And as most things we talk about,

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons for this shame factor, of course,

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Speaker 1: is misogyny. The mere fact that this genre, again one

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Speaker 1: of the highest grossing genres in literal sure and fiction,

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Speaker 1: is created and produced and read mostly by women and

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Speaker 1: gender nonconforming people often places a shaming connotation, to the

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Speaker 1: point that romance writers will often use a pseudonym in

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Speaker 1: order to separate their other words from these types of novels.

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Speaker 1: We can delve into the fact that disparaging these books

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Speaker 1: is associated with women who are often times controlling the

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Speaker 1: narrative and even using sexuality or the desire for sexuality

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Speaker 1: to push the story forward with a fairly detailed counterpart

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00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: within stories, so you have like actual understanding that this

428
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: is something I fantasized about. I won't get it, but

429
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: this is what I'm thinking about, you know what I mean,

430
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: and within these stories that they're able to attain them

431
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: or to get with them, and they they fulfill every

432
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: bit of the fantasy that they hope for, unlike reality,

433
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: which is still judged and shamed by many of people.

434
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: Which is why sites and blogs and podcasts like smart

435
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: but Just Trashy Books are really popular because they actually

436
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: do talk about the connotations behind it and why it's

437
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: okay they love what people would refer to as trashy books,

438
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: and why they should be of notoriety because they are

439
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: doing something big, and they have done something big and

440
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: these books are surprise surprise for women and for those

441
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: who love romance novels. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll

442
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 1: probably touch on this when we get to our like

443
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: movies TV one, but you can certainly see that play

444
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: out with like the Love of the Bachelor of Bachelorette.

445
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: And then my point that I was going to make

446
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: earlier is, um, I think as a society we've just

447
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: so long been afraid of female sexuality. So that's part

448
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: of it. And like even going way back into like

449
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: the eighteen fifties, there's this really hilarious sad passage about

450
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: don't let women get their hands on romance. Their cheeks

451
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: will flush, they'll be like a fire inside of the middle,

452
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: be uncontrollable. And then on top of that, just because

453
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: women are doing it, I think it's seen as lesser.

454
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: Because women are seen as lesser, and men want to

455
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: get like the more academic, highly paid genres, they want

456
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 1: to dominate those things, right, So I think that's part

457
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: of it too, absolutely um. And you will see a

458
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: lot of like direct publishing. I I have a coworker,

459
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: an old coworker, who wrote romance novels and she loved

460
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: it as she would directly uh published through Amazon because

461
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: that was one of our passions. A friend of mine, Rida,

462
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: said it was really good, so there you go. But

463
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: we did want to talk about some problems in the

464
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 1: industry where it's still lacking, because especially when we look

465
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: at representation, it is behind. Um. It wasn't until the

466
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: nineties that black women were being recognized for their romance novels,

467
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: and it's still not being recognized or really publicized today.

468
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: In fact, the much coveted Rita Award, which is an

469
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: award to promote excellence in the romance genre, was criticized

470
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: by the lack of black or LGBTQ plus nominees or winners.

471
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: It was an until twenty nineteen that the first black

472
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: romance novelist, Kennedy Ryan, won the award, and it was

473
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: so bad that the Rita Awards were sold due to

474
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: so many candidates and judges withdrawing because of the diversity issues. Right,

475
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: so they had to revamp the whole award. I think

476
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: they call it the Vivian Award now, um, and I'm

477
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: not sure if they've awarded anyone because it was so

478
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: bad and it was such a tarnished reputation and the

479
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: cost of debate within that organizations, much like what we

480
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: see everywhere else of some fight women standing up saying well,

481
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: it's just because it's hard to write novels and not

482
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: everyone can get awards, So justifying it that way instead

483
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: of looking at the problem of or you are not

484
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: willing to recognize the excellence of black writers and LGBTQ writers,

485
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: and therefore you have a biased idea of what is

486
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: good and what is recognized. And they talk about specifically,

487
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: Alissa Cole's book An Extraordinary Union, which was a novel

488
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: about interracial relationships during the American Civil War, was huge success.

489
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: It was on everybody's top lists and talking about how

490
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: big it was and how novel it was and how

491
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: amazing it was written. It made no appearance during the

492
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: RITA Awards finalists, and that's kind of the draw that

493
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: rub with the camel's back, like Okay, here's an obvious winner,

494
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: and you are not recognized it even as a nomination.

495
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: And it was so problematic that it became a whole thing,

496
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: which I'm surprised it took as long as twenty eighteen,

497
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: but I guess at the same time as Oscar so

498
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: white and all of these awards so white. And this

499
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: is exactly one of the big problems is that even

500
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: in a genre much like the suffragette movements, was specifically

501
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: made for something that is marginalized anyway, because they are

502
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: all women, they still ignored the even more marginalized of

503
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: black women or the LGBTQ, and so it became a

504
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: whole thing. They made an apology, they revamped the thing,

505
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: but we'll see because, like I said, there was an

506
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: inner conversation where some people said that some of the

507
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: board members did not understand why it was a problem,

508
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: and that's really saying a lot, and within this industry,

509
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: that's really saying a lot. But speaking of bettering, I

510
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: guess the industry. I didn't want to talk a little

511
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: bit about why A novels or young adult novels, and

512
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: they're not necessarily a romance genre. It can be, as

513
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: we know, it's given more hope having more representation within

514
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: romanic plots and romantic novels as why A novels are

515
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: written in specifically target younger audiences ak the young adults.

516
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: Adults have enjoyed and continue to read the content as well,

517
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: and a big reason for that is the level of

518
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: relationships and community within these books seem to offer a

519
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: lot more and a lot more representation. We look at

520
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: dystopian books like Hunger Games, or fantasies like Twilight. The

521
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: romance is very clear and enticing. Yes said it. I

522
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: love how it's both like one woman and two dudes

523
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: you've got to have. They're triangle and every single one

524
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: and they're I've talked about this before. There's always the

525
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: triangle is divergent the same way divergen is not the

526
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: same way. They only have one. I don't know, Yah's

527
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: the one, I think. But unlike the traditional romance books,

528
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: there's more representation, like we said, in a complex development

529
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: as we watch characters grow and mature, so they learned

530
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: about themselves as they developed, and that's kind of the

531
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: appellas that you see them at a young age and

532
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: kind of that. Huh. I wish I had this in

533
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: my younger age. And don't get me wrong, we had

534
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: really good novels as a teenagers, but it didn't go

535
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: to this like I had Fear Street. What did you

536
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: read as a teenager? As a teenager? Also like Gone

537
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: with the Wind as teenager and Laby Harry Potter. Let's see,

538
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: I wasn't a teenager at that point, so there you go.

539
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: I think for me, it's like Fear Street, Babysitters Club,

540
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: I guess I was a little younger for those I

541
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: read a lot of Christian novels. I did read a

542
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: lot of Christian romance novels, and that's also an industry

543
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: that's pretty huge. As in fact, the woman that I

544
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: was telling you about that wrote her own novels, it

545
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: was a Christian romance novel. And I will say those

546
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: are problematic, yeah, I mean, and and that's something like

547
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: I know, me and Bridget did an episode once on

548
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 1: like Stalking one oh one and Twilight, like Edward is

549
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: he fits a stalker like that he's sitting in her

550
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: bedroom without her mentioned watching her sleep. So that's super creepy, y'all,

551
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: super creepy. Yeah, I mean, I think that's telling of

552
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: what you think of romances when you're younger, especially. Yeah,

553
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: but I think that's part of the things, like you

554
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: start seeing growth because that was these are a little dated. Obviously,

555
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: it was like twenty years ago. Was it twenty years ago?

556
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: I was in college when the first movie came out,

557
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: so that would be like, okay, so ten to twenty

558
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: years ago this was happening, And so they've definitely gotten problematic.

559
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: But then you start looking at books like Eleanor and Park,

560
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: which is one of my really nice little books, was like, oh,

561
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: this is nice. I really wish I had that representation.

562
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: Not only do you have an Asian male playing the

563
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: character of the cute boy, you know what I mean,

564
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: but you have that awkwardness that they grow up together.

565
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: And it's really fulfilling book, even though it still had

566
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: the conversations of abuse, say and like poverty and body shaming.

567
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: It definitely had all of those things in there. And

568
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: I think it's nice, but I do see a lot

569
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: of change. And of course again there's bigger changes in

570
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: the romance novels for adults. But these novels are able

571
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: to do something that's a little different in developing these

572
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: young characters into adulthood when they come of age. They

573
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: do add that diversity and representation, especially with like the

574
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: LGBTQ and within like racial issues. They do have those

575
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: conversations and are able to hit those topics. Yeah, and

576
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: and perhaps on surprisingly, many of those young adult books

577
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: are authored by more women and gender nonconforming individuals and

578
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: are more likely to be read by adult women rather

579
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: than adult men. I remember that whole thing we could

580
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: get like a fake cover for your Harry Potter books

581
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: that people wouldn't know you're reading Harry Potter. It's like

582
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: Heaven Forbid, which John was like young adult growing and increasing,

583
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: we do see more voices and representations, which does make

584
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: it more accessible for those hungry to see themselves represented.

585
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: As speaking of it is time to talk about fan fiction.

586
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: But first we've gotta post a quick break for a

587
00:32:53,360 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: word from ours sponsor m and we're back. Thank you sponsored.

588
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: So you knew that I had to talk about fan fiction.

589
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: We just had to, especially since Twilight and Fifty Shades

590
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: of Gray started out as fan fiction, so did a

591
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: lot of I mean not a lot, but several other

592
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: books you might be surprised to know. Um and you

593
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: can see our fan fiction two partter for more. But

594
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: as a reminder, there are millions of fan fiction out there.

595
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: Most fan fiction is written by women, girls, and gender

596
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: nonconforming folks, queer people, and other marginalized groups. And a

597
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: lot of what is written does involve romance. A lot

598
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: of it, and I would say is romance and genre.

599
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: We're going to run through some of the main chops

600
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: that you'll see, and I know I probably don't need

601
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: to explain, but in case you some have have no idea.

602
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: These are just stories people write about existing fandoms or works.

603
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: So you just write what you want to see. These

604
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: characters from Star Wars due in your own world, and

605
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: then people read them and comment them on them, and

606
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: there's a little community. They are huge community and huge community.

607
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: There huge huge and disclaimer. There is a lot of

608
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: problematic fan fiction and tropes. But I do think fan

609
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: fiction is a space where younger folks and even older

610
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: folks are working through their thoughts on sex and trauma.

611
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: And I also think that it's a reflection on anxieties

612
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: or feelings around sex that a lot of girls and

613
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: women are harbor, including the confusion around repression and asking

614
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: for what you want, and how that struggle sometimes comes

615
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: out at the usually male character displaying abusive, controlling and

616
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: or stalker tendencies and steering all aspects of the relationship,

617
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: even if it's painted as romantic. He can't help it,

618
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: he can't help his desire, He can't live without you.

619
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: Everything he does he does for you. That kind of

620
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: mentality that shows up a lot, and to reiterate, for

621
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: better or worse, I learned a lot about sex and

622
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: romanster fan fiction, and I am not alone that kind

623
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: of whole genre, because there's definitely columns out there when

624
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: people say I learned about sex and romance novels, Yeah, yeah,

625
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: and I highly recommend. I mean, if you're interested at all.

626
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: There are hilarious articles about fearmongering around fan fiction, about

627
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: like young girls are writing erotic six scenes between men.

628
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's a very simplified take and not

629
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: really accurate. But so from a O three or Arcave

630
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: of our Own, which is one of the biggest fan

631
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: fiction sites, it's a nonprofit quote and overwhelming majority of

632
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: fan fiction is written by people who identifies Women more

633
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: identify as gender queer at six percent than male at

634
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 1: four percent, and only thirty eight percent identify as heterosexual.

635
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: When a O three was first coded, it marked the

636
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: biggest majority female independent coding project. And I did find

637
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: some amazing graphs about who's writing and reading fan fiction ships,

638
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: which again is relationships, Who who do you ship? Who

639
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: do you stand behind? All kinds of stuff. And I

640
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: went through the top fifty most read Harry Potter fan

641
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: fictions and I've read about half of them, and that

642
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: was pretty cool. I was like, oh, Yeah. One of

643
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: my favorite troops among the over seven thousand respondents was

644
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: the friends to Lovers tropes, so that was one of

645
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: the most popular. Rescue mission was fourth, that's another one

646
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: I love. And then fluff hert Comfort, mutual Pining, and

647
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: huddling for Warmth were in the top ten two and

648
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: I love all of those. Huddling for warmth, yeah, so

649
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: that that would be like it hot I've told you

650
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: in the true Lukeing Hon they've got a huddle for

651
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: warm Well, okay, it's not fan fiction, but I'm thinking

652
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: about the Game of Thrones incident with snow. Yes, I'm

653
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: just saying it's the incident. Yeah, so I obviously didn't

654
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: contribute much to this, but I will help read through them.

655
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 1: So slash, I guess we have to start there. That's

656
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: what you tell me, because if we're gonna have to

657
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: start there. Because while this is an episode on women

658
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: in romance, the fact remains that while most fan fiction

659
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: is written by women, girls non binary folks, a very

660
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: decent chunk of is what's called slash. Usually, a noncannon

661
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: relationship between two male characters and two female characters is

662
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: called film slash, which you did tell me about this.

663
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: You had to explained all of this to me. And

664
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: most of the slash is written by women, depending on

665
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: the site, is about at fifty split between straight and

666
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: quit women writing it. And a popular misconception is that

667
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: all these relationships involved sex, which isn't true, which is

668
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: nice to know. No, not true at all. And I

669
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: did want to mention ya Oe, which is maga based

670
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: slash originating in Japan, and it usually features two male characters,

671
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: but one typically fits the traditional masculine role and the

672
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: other traditional feminine role. Japanese fan fiction should be its

673
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: own episode. But I'm aware of it, and I know,

674
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: going through this it might be kind of strange because yes,

675
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: seen his women in Romance and all of these a

676
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,479
Speaker 1: lot of these are about men, but it's women writing them,

677
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: and it's I'm gonna make the case that it's exploring sexuality.

678
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: But so there are a lot of theories and yes

679
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: spearmongering as to why so many women are writing slash,

680
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: and I myself have several theories. I've thought about this

681
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: because I'd even done it, and I'm like, what is

682
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: happening here? Here are a few theories. So, number one,

683
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: there are more male characters, more complex male characters, and

684
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: more main male characters in our entertainment. Because we have

685
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: a tendency to sexualize the female body, almost any female

686
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: character and usually there's only one are two, and a

687
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: lot of our main ones in our entertainment almost inherently

688
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: become a love interest. This means when writing friendships with

689
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: main male characters, this friendship might be deeper, something like

690
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: the bromance, and because of that and our love of

691
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: turning things into romances, we might see something platonic and

692
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: loving and imagine it as something else. One of my

693
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: favorite pieces I've ever read about this was specifically about

694
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: the male writer's shock how many women turned Captain America

695
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: the Winter Soldier, and to quote a homo erotic subtext,

696
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: I love it all right. So the female body is

697
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: of course more political and comes with the more issues

698
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: like pregnancy or get our own hang ups around female

699
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: sexuality and beauty standards. In a strange way, it removes

700
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: the male gaze. A lot of these also deal with

701
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: the male characters internalized homophobia, which I think is really

702
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: funny because yes, I definitely watched Supernatural and it has

703
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: a giant, giant fan fiction base and a lot of

704
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: fandoms and a lot of slash, and they refer to

705
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: it as well within the series. And I know one

706
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: of the things I talked about is the slash and

707
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: it's quite funny and how they deal with it, especially

708
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: when you have a character as masculine as Dean try

709
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: to be like what what? So it was fun to

710
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: see it played out. Oh yeah, and we're gonna talk

711
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: about him specifically. Actually, there's a whole article written about

712
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: that and how that show had to become more progressive

713
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: because it's female kind of slash loving audience. Right. So

714
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: over at the High Hat, Melissa writes that Slash gives

715
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: the author the chance to quote have the freedom of

716
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: being male in their female bodies. There are plenty of

717
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: opportunities in media for men to explore their sexuality, but

718
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: that's not the same thing for women and queer folks.

719
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: And then Slash as queer Utopia, which is the research

720
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: paper by Dr Eco Willis out of the University of Bristol.

721
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: There's a quote from that that says the reader has

722
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: to decide not only what readings of the show are possible,

723
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: but what is possible in a fictional universe. And this

724
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: decision must necessarily engage what she believes is possible in

725
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: her own universe. Yeah, or simply these relationships are more

726
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: interesting and people want to write them or to expound

727
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: on what viewers readers saw as queer subtexts in shows.

728
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: And yes, again, this is also another term. And he

729
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: had to teach me which is ho yea, which I

730
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: want to say is oh yea because it's a homo

731
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: eraticism yea coined by the Angel fan base. Yes, and

732
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: according to sci Fi Wire, some of the key historical

733
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: Slash couples are Spock and Kirk from Star Check, Star Skiing,

734
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: Hush Fraser, Slash Ray five from Due South, a ray

735
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: V I've never seen that show, so apologies, Clark Collects

736
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: from Smallville, Sherlock Watson from Sherlock, and Finnipo from Star Wars.

737
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: I could probably talk about Slash forever, and I propose

738
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: we do a whole episode on the history of Slash

739
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: one day. But all right, im preg is something I

740
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: want to mention, and because just to know, there's a

741
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: whole section of fan fiction called in preg wherein main

742
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: male characters do get pregnant, okay, so or die and

743
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: that was really excited to see this. The first slash

744
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: fan fiction is thought to be at nineteen six box

745
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: slash Kirk, which is Spurk fan fiction that was a

746
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: or die fanfiction. You have to have sex or you die.

747
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: And in this fic, the characters quote spent all of

748
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: the remaining days on the planet exploring both the planet

749
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: and each other's bodies, which simplifies a complex situation of

750
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: feelings and worries too. We have to have sex or

751
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: we die. Yeah, And it's especially useful for like, if

752
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: two characters probably wouldn't have sex, how do you put

753
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: them in a seration where they would? Here you go yes.

754
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: And then shipping, which we've talked about before. Fan fiction

755
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: is a big place for shipping, especially for characters who

756
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: are probably not going to get together in Cannon. Some

757
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: people argue that that's what shipping is. It implies that

758
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: the characters aren't meant to be together in Cannon and

759
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: c l are Dean and Castile has the most fan

760
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: fiction written for of any ship, at least according to

761
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: numbers that we can find. As of twenty nineteen, a

762
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: O three pit this ship at number one, with seventy

763
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: nine thousand six hundred fifty stories written tagged as Destio,

764
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: and there could have been plenty more that weren't tagged

765
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: or were differently tagged. Bucky and Steve are Stucky was fourth,

766
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: Dean and sam Or Winsest from Supernatural was the ninth,

767
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: and Jenson and Jared the actors were Supernatural. Real person

768
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: Fiction was sixty six of the top one hundred ships

769
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: were male male male slash mail and almost all the

770
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: ships on the list are between white characters too. And

771
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: the shipping names, Oh my god, the shipping names Jerminy, Sky, Solo, Storm, Pilot,

772
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: Scuttalaurean Oh so good, Dremany as in like Draco and Harmony.

773
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: Oh that's probably that one and Dreary are probably the

774
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: biggest Harry Potter ones. Yeah, okay, okay, So obviously there

775
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: are some shippers that go as far as to attack

776
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: creators and attackers if a ship doesn't go their way. Yeah,

777
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: we definitely, I definitely watched that play it out for

778
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: Supernatural is a huge thing, and believing their ship can

779
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: only be enjoyed if it becomes cannon, which again comes

780
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: close to especially when you have the male mill is

781
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: it cuerbating? So there was a conversation about that too,

782
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: which least to O t P the one true pairing.

783
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: So people can get really militant defensive about this. I

784
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: don't think there's a problem in like really shipping and

785
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: O t P. That's so funny because in Atlanta that

786
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: means outside the perimeters. So that's why I'm being like what,

787
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: But I mean, as long as you do it in

788
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: good humor, with the recognition that not everyone agrees with you,

789
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: and you don't own a fandom like that militant attacking thing,

790
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: that's not cool. One of the most troublesome elements of

791
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: this hardcore shipping is hating on any other pairing, and

792
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: that often involves hating on female characters. The amount of

793
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: vitriol I've seen against Jenny Weasley for getting in the

794
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: way of whatever relationship the writer reader thought should have

795
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: been the O TPS just it's shocking. It's shocking. And

796
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: I've even seen authors be like, stop, it's called bashing.

797
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: Stop Jenny bashing or up, I don't want to be

798
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: a part of this. She just doesn't have to be

799
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: romantic interest in this story, but calm down. And these

800
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: female characters are often written as outright evil shoes, like

801
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: actually evil, like for Jenny literally working for Voldemort, are

802
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: being worse than Voltimore, Like Rolie already kind of had

803
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: an evil shoe in her book which was changed. Yeah, well,

804
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: oh gosh, people don't really like her either, but female character,

805
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: that's that's not her mindy. But I know Choe was

806
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: written in a way that she was kind of evil

807
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: and like not evil, but definitely annoying and trill in

808
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 1: the in the book. I'm glad to get that less

809
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: of that in the movie. But in the book she

810
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: share was Yeah, And I did want to run through

811
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: some random terms that do come up in these romantic

812
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: senses if you don't know. Writers can tag fan fiction

813
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: with all kinds of things, which is one of my

814
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: absolute favorite things is reading the tags so you can

815
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: search that tag and get stories that have it. They

816
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 1: can be really elaborate and funny. One of the most

817
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: useful fan fixed terms is UST Like I actually use

818
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: this in real life. It's for unresolved sexual tension. Some

819
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: other popular tags when it comes to romance are smut,

820
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: which is essentially what it sounds like, kink meme, also

821
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: what it sounds like, p w P are porn without

822
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: plot or porn what plot? Pining, slow burn, slash build,

823
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: two idiots in love, bed sharing, Oh no, one bed left?

824
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 1: What are we gonna do? Been? You're in love of fluff,

825
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: which is just sweet interactions, not necessarily romantic, but often romantic,

826
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: and that is actually the most popular tone, followed by

827
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: angst and I write both of those. So are you

828
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: wearing your shirt today? Says we're talking about it, but

829
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: it should have My Samantha got me a lovely fan

830
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: fiction shirt. It's wonderful, it's about my fan fiction. Cannon

831
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: Divergent was the second most popular trope, and that's my

832
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: current favorite thing, exactly for the example they gave quote

833
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: what if Luke was raised as the prince of all

834
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: around and Leah as a lowly farm girl. But in

835
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: terms of romance, these are interesting because authors get to

836
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: mess are not mess with the O T P. The

837
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: ones you're pairing, were they destined to be together? Are

838
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: in an alternate universe with things have gone differently. I

839
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: love that. I love explaining that, of course you do. So.

840
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: Curtain fick, which is a genre of fan fiction that

841
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: focuses on domestic situations. Apparently they're really cute. There's really cute.

842
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: I think they're so cute. All right, So it's called

843
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: this because the situation might be tookt just trying to

844
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,919
Speaker 1: decide on curtains for their home. That so literal curtains. Okay, Yeah,

845
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: it's like the first time I saw that, I thought

846
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: it was gonna be like really raunchy, but no, it's

847
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: like literally domestic cute domestic situations. Phil, Like, that's happened

848
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: to you a lot with this genre, Like you, you

849
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: gets really scared of looking at things up and it

850
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: ends up being as innocent as it seems, as the

851
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: title seems. I think I've like carved out my world

852
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: and fan fiction. So that's the case now, But when

853
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: I was younger that was not the case. I had

854
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: a lot of learning to do. Like we're not even

855
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: talking about lemons. No, okay, another episode will come back

856
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: to that, and yeah, right now. Related to Curtain Fike,

857
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: there's so much Luke Skywalker Mandalorian slash being written and

858
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 1: at first I was confused, but now I totally get

859
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: it because they raised baby Yoda grow group together and

860
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: it's just sweet. Is cute Another big segment of fan fiction,

861
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: especially on things like what pad are self insert fix

862
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: with celebrities and this is real person fix or URPF.

863
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: And I think this has to relate a lot to

864
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: what we talked about in our fan Girl episode of

865
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: working through sexual desires. You're coming into adolescence figuring out

866
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: what these new feelings and wants me and not always,

867
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: but I do think there's a big segment of that

868
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: going on and going back to our well we haven't

869
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: talked about this ship, but in the future when we

870
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: talk about boy band and love ballads, this is an

871
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: extension of that. Um what PAD is usually used by

872
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: a younger female audience, and I wrote one of these

873
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: for a Green Day Billy Joe Armstrong when I was

874
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: in high school. That involved me taking a bullet for him,

875
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: which is a big trope in these like you say yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

876
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: And just for instance, like Dean Winchester Slash you was

877
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: number seventy on that shipping chart and Bucky Slash he

878
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: was eight three. So you're writing yourself in with these characters. No,

879
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: Captain America, I'm sure he's on there, but he was

880
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: Bucky was first before he was. Well, we do have

881
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: a little bit more for you listeners. But first we

882
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: have one more quick break for word from our sponsor,

883
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: every Back, Thank you sponsored. So one big thing I've

884
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: never explored in fan fiction is the Omega verse or

885
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: a bo A slash b slash show. And this is

886
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: a universe based on a werewolf hierarchy where you have alpha's,

887
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: betas and omega's and sometimes gamas, deltas and stigmas. But

888
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: there doesn't have to be a mention of werewolves, as

889
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: universe can be applied to any fandom. So Alpha's are

890
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: of the highest rank. Uh. They're very protective and aggressive,

891
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: and they usually have something that sets them apart off

892
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: a not on the base of the penis or if

893
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: it's a woman, a retractable penis. Female alpha's have no

894
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: womb and can't get pregnant um and this is used

895
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: to look and omega in place during sex so that

896
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 1: it can catch Alpha's have a distinct scent that might

897
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: cause omegas to go into heat and or induce arousal.

898
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: Alpha's are always on top during six So I have

899
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: to ask you this because you are really worried about

900
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: researching this. Yes, how do you feel about it? Now?

901
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 1: It's not as bad as I thought it would be

902
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 1: to anybody who likes it. I only mean that because

903
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: I some of the descriptions I've read, I was like, Oh,

904
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: this is gonna be like really feral, violent sex. Yeah,

905
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: that's what I thought. It was like very triggering type

906
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: of sex. Let Yeah, not necessarily something you would want,

907
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: but yeah, I know what we talked about this. So

908
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: betos are pretty much human except for a few things,

909
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: which may says. They do have a bit of a scent,

910
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: but not too much. I was a good sense. They

911
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: can't get pregnant after sex with alpha's and they can't

912
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: impregnate Omega's. I guess that's good news. Female beatas are

913
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: also pretty much quote normal humans, so they can have

914
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: their period and can get pregnant even with alpha's, though

915
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 1: of course the process is painful um and they're said

916
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: is soothing to Omega's and Alpha's okay uh and Omega's

917
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: they go into heats, basically their fertility goes up and

918
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: their sexual arousal goes wild. Female omegas are the same

919
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 1: as humans, but male omegas use their anal canal both

920
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: for waste and essentially as a uterus, and they usually

921
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: have to have a C section When giving birth, Omega's

922
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: and heat become very sensitive to scent irritable. They get

923
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: elevated temperatures, heavy breathing, and secretions of slick are a

924
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: sweet smelling self lubricant. They usually are looking for an

925
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: alpha to quote, not them, And that's K and O

926
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: T if that wasn't clear. And Alpha's and Omega's quote

927
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: mark each other with a bite to the space between

928
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 1: the neck and the shoulder. So these were specifically useful

929
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: I guess, like creatures or monsters, a million powder space

930
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: type of fiction. Oh no, like this could be Like

931
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: I said that, I just saw one in Star Wars

932
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: where it was like Obi one was Omega, Anakin was

933
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: in Alpha like and they did apply it to like

934
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: any characters. Interesting. So this sounds familiar obviously to a

935
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: sub dom or submissive and dominant relationship, but when surveyed

936
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: by omega versus, it seems popular among one particular group,

937
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: while most surveyed did not like it. And you were

938
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: hesitant about it because this is not necessarily up your

939
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: alley either, right, Yeah, yeah, Like I said, I was

940
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: just worried it was gonna be kind of this really violent,

941
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: non consensual sex which I'm sure does happen in this universe,

942
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: but doesn't necessarily right have to be the case. But

943
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: speaking of we did want to talk about dub con

944
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 1: and non con, which is dubious consent and non consensual.

945
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: So I wanted to put this in here because I

946
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: have read a lot of fan fiction in my day,

947
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: if that's not obvious, but there's a lot of cases

948
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: where this needs to romance with the character that's sexually

949
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: assaulted another character, which of course is very problematic and

950
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 1: worrisome when it comes to how people perceive romance. In fact,

951
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: at least in the ones I've read, the aggressor often

952
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: get some tragic or even romantic reasoning so that you're

953
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: meant to feel sympathetic for him, and that is probably

954
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: the girl or woman's fault, or even other or other

955
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 1: man's fault. On the other hand, dub slash non con

956
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: is often used to facilitate a relationship between someone else,

957
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: so sometimes that can be a healthy thing, like being

958
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 1: there for someone who has been through a trauma. I

959
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: have written one of those, but often it's done unhealthily,

960
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: as in the dub slash non con took place to

961
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: punish the other man slash interested party. So this person

962
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: that was assaulted is essentially just a pond to punish

963
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,879
Speaker 1: someone else. And deb con is in specific frequently used

964
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: as a way to imply that the character being taken

965
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: advantage of actually does want it in heavy quotes, and

966
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: the assaulting character knows this, and it's just giving the

967
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: character what they want and yes, romance might ensue from there. Uh.

968
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: And this is a very complicated conversation, but I do

969
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 1: think there's a layer of women and girls feeling like

970
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: they can't voice what they want sexually or admit that

971
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: they have sexual desires because it might make them a sluts,

972
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: and or not really knowing what they do want and

973
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: relinquishing control to someone else. I'm not saying I can

974
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: condone it consent enthusiastic consent always, just that I think

975
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: that that might be at play. And as I said,

976
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 1: a decent amount of fan fiction is women and girls

977
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: and queer people working out their thoughts around sex and

978
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 1: romance and love. And I've heard a debate around the

979
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: use of these terms at all, as in their softening

980
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: what they really are sexual assault and rate. But I've

981
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: seen other people argue that these are good because they

982
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: aren't as triggering for people who are just scrolling through,

983
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:47,439
Speaker 1: like you can see that be like, okay, that's sorting

984
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: off for me. And again, this kind of does relay

985
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: with a lot of the novel stuff we're talking about

986
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: and how is this aged and trying to figure out

987
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: what women want and during the time where sexuality was

988
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: repressed for women that also had this whole layer of

989
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: like wanting, this level of like conversation of dominating or

990
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: being being subdued somehow or something along those lines, being

991
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 1: swept off their feet because it was this level of

992
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: how do I talk about sexuality? I can't say I

993
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: want it, so it has to be this. So it

994
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: definitely goes hand in hands in that conversation about what

995
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: is this timeline, what does this look like? And who

996
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: is talking about it? Yeah. Yeah, and it's a very

997
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: complex situation. I know. We kind of touched on it

998
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: again in our our Women in Monsters episode Women Heart Monsters. Yeah,

999
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: it's it's complicated. There's a lot tub tangle there. And

1000
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: on a chart of most popular versus least popular troops

1001
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: and fan fiction, non con was the second least popular,

1002
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: after Underage and before insist. People also weren't into pregnancy

1003
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: or impreg but of notes, I would say those are

1004
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: things people probably are more hesitant to say that they read.

1005
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I believe it's true, but also yeah, yeah, yeah,

1006
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: they might not shout it from this is my favorite

1007
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: genre or this is a grouping. Yeah. So that's what

1008
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: we have to say in our part one of women

1009
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: and romance. Yes, and we've got more and it's and

1010
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: he's all into the video game part too. She's already

1011
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: ready for this. So we're gonna be talking about movies, TV,

1012
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: video games, and yes, even music and boy bands because

1013
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 1: there's a lot to unravel. And yes, we know this

1014
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: is very broad, but we didn't want to look at

1015
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: what it looks like on these levels. And we've already

1016
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,919
Speaker 1: talked about fan girls before, and we've talked a little

1017
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: bit about video games before women in video games, so

1018
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: this is not new. We just wanted to talk about

1019
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: it in reference to romance. So stay tuned or come

1020
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: back rather part two or states here when you're listening

1021
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: to this, I don't know. Yes. In the meantime, if

1022
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 1: you have any romance recommendations, oh my goodness, send him

1023
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 1: our away. Our email is Steph Media mom Stuff that

1024
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: I Hurt mea dot com. You can also find us

1025
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You, are on

1026
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks It's always to our

1027
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: super producer Christina. Thanks Christina, and thanks to you for

1028
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 1: listening Stuff I'm Not Told You Protection of I Heart Radio.

1029
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visits I hear

1030
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

1031
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 1: favorite shows.