1 00:00:09,602 --> 00:00:10,202 Speaker 1: Originals. 2 00:00:10,362 --> 00:00:12,522 Speaker 2: This is an iHeart original. 3 00:00:14,482 --> 00:00:17,402 Speaker 3: Welcome back to very special episodes. So glad you're here. 4 00:00:17,682 --> 00:00:21,082 Speaker 3: My name is Jason English. Today, Dana Zaren and I 5 00:00:21,242 --> 00:00:24,522 Speaker 3: have something extra very special in store for you. We 6 00:00:24,602 --> 00:00:27,362 Speaker 3: have two very special guest stars from elsewhere in the 7 00:00:27,402 --> 00:00:30,882 Speaker 3: iHeart Cinematic Universe. Our good friends Ben Bowlin and Alex 8 00:00:30,922 --> 00:00:33,122 Speaker 3: French are going to be taking the mic. This one 9 00:00:33,202 --> 00:00:36,882 Speaker 3: starts with a simple question, how the did cheese get in? 10 00:00:36,962 --> 00:00:40,402 Speaker 3: Everything from stuff Cruss Pizza to Got Milk ads to 11 00:00:40,522 --> 00:00:43,162 Speaker 3: that famous West Wing episode. These guys cover a ton 12 00:00:43,202 --> 00:00:46,002 Speaker 3: of ground. Ben and Alex are a great team. They'll 13 00:00:46,002 --> 00:00:50,282 Speaker 3: be back on this feed throughout twenty twenty five, popping 14 00:00:50,362 --> 00:00:53,002 Speaker 3: in here and there. We haven't recorded their next episode 15 00:00:53,042 --> 00:00:55,922 Speaker 3: yet or else I would end today's show with a 16 00:00:55,962 --> 00:00:58,762 Speaker 3: post credit scene, but I will give you one spoiler. 17 00:00:59,282 --> 00:01:02,042 Speaker 3: It starts in a waffle house. That's a food story 18 00:01:02,082 --> 00:01:06,682 Speaker 3: for another day. Today we're talking big Parma. 19 00:01:08,082 --> 00:01:12,482 Speaker 1: The year is nineteen ninety five. Coolio has a massive 20 00:01:12,562 --> 00:01:17,282 Speaker 1: radio hit with Gangster's Paradise. Bruce Willis's Die Hard with 21 00:01:17,402 --> 00:01:21,762 Speaker 1: a Vengeance is king of the international box office. The 22 00:01:21,842 --> 00:01:26,202 Speaker 1: Internet is privatized, AOL and Prodigy usher forth the birth 23 00:01:26,242 --> 00:01:31,242 Speaker 1: of the information age. OJ is acquitted. The cheesecake factory 24 00:01:31,442 --> 00:01:36,362 Speaker 1: rapidly becomes one of suburban America's favorite kitchens, and on 25 00:01:36,522 --> 00:01:40,722 Speaker 1: every TV set. Donald Trump and his ex wife Havanna, 26 00:01:41,042 --> 00:01:44,682 Speaker 1: divorced for five years by then, are hawking mutant pies 27 00:01:44,882 --> 00:01:47,442 Speaker 1: for Pizza Hut. Do you really think this is the 28 00:01:47,522 --> 00:01:50,922 Speaker 1: right thing for us to be doingva? But dear people think, 29 00:01:51,282 --> 00:01:57,002 Speaker 1: let him talk. It's wrong, isn't it? 30 00:01:57,042 --> 00:01:58,562 Speaker 2: But it feels so right? 31 00:01:59,202 --> 00:02:02,122 Speaker 1: Then it's a deal. Yesa pizza the wrong way. 32 00:02:02,162 --> 00:02:05,362 Speaker 2: Cruss first, introducing stuff crust pizza from Pizza Hut with 33 00:02:05,442 --> 00:02:08,002 Speaker 2: a ring of cheese baked into a total thinner crust. 34 00:02:08,042 --> 00:02:10,442 Speaker 1: You don't want to eat it the wrong way crust First, 35 00:02:10,642 --> 00:02:13,642 Speaker 1: I have the last size. Actually, you're only entitled to 36 00:02:13,642 --> 00:02:14,722 Speaker 1: half large. 37 00:02:14,802 --> 00:02:19,842 Speaker 2: Just nine ninety nine, obesity was an epidemic. 38 00:02:20,242 --> 00:02:25,442 Speaker 1: About one in five American adults was considered dangerously overweight. 39 00:02:25,602 --> 00:02:29,322 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, heart disease was on the rise. 40 00:02:29,442 --> 00:02:30,762 Speaker 1: I mean what a time. 41 00:02:30,882 --> 00:02:33,482 Speaker 2: Oh, I remember it well, Ben moving through the world 42 00:02:33,522 --> 00:02:36,082 Speaker 2: and a food induced stupor from a constant barrage of 43 00:02:36,122 --> 00:02:40,722 Speaker 2: gargantuan portions served up at popular casual dining chains. Yet 44 00:02:41,042 --> 00:02:44,562 Speaker 2: the stuff crust pizza creation was world changing, a watershed 45 00:02:44,602 --> 00:02:48,162 Speaker 2: moment in the history of stunt food and unnecessary anything 46 00:02:48,242 --> 00:02:51,082 Speaker 2: goes sort of gimmick that led to nothing good. 47 00:02:51,402 --> 00:02:56,922 Speaker 1: Yeah, because pizza is already perfect sticking cheese in the crust, However, 48 00:02:57,042 --> 00:02:58,602 Speaker 1: it felt like it was bad. 49 00:02:58,602 --> 00:03:03,602 Speaker 2: Tomak Love handles, oh chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. 50 00:03:03,482 --> 00:03:07,642 Speaker 1: Alex, the list goes on. Pizza Hut rolled out stuffed 51 00:03:07,722 --> 00:03:11,242 Speaker 1: crust pizza to the public during Final four weekend with 52 00:03:11,442 --> 00:03:15,482 Speaker 1: a forty five million dollar advertising campaign. 53 00:03:15,762 --> 00:03:18,562 Speaker 2: C Suite execs at The Hut hoped that the solution 54 00:03:18,722 --> 00:03:22,282 Speaker 2: for stagnant sales numbers was laying a necklace of mozzarella 55 00:03:22,402 --> 00:03:25,802 Speaker 2: cheese around the pizza crust perimeter and folding over the dough. 56 00:03:26,282 --> 00:03:30,162 Speaker 1: Alan Huston, the chain's president and chief executive, told The 57 00:03:30,242 --> 00:03:34,722 Speaker 1: New York Times that the stuffed crust pizza represented the 58 00:03:34,842 --> 00:03:39,962 Speaker 1: razor edge of pizza dough technology and mozzarella management. The 59 00:03:40,042 --> 00:03:44,362 Speaker 1: recipe called for using a whopping fifty percent more cheese 60 00:03:44,482 --> 00:03:46,642 Speaker 1: than your typical pizza. 61 00:03:46,042 --> 00:03:49,162 Speaker 2: And that stuffed crust pizza innovation wasn't cooked up by 62 00:03:49,202 --> 00:03:53,202 Speaker 2: Pizza Hut alone. They had help from a secret government agency, 63 00:03:53,722 --> 00:03:57,002 Speaker 2: a Queso Cabal, if you will, funded by the dairy industry, 64 00:03:57,042 --> 00:04:00,042 Speaker 2: with the express purpose of convincing the pizza huts and 65 00:04:00,082 --> 00:04:02,922 Speaker 2: Tacko bells of the world to use more milk products 66 00:04:02,962 --> 00:04:06,442 Speaker 2: in their food, no matter the expense nor the health 67 00:04:06,522 --> 00:04:09,962 Speaker 2: risks consumers, the sorts of Cretans who think it's okay 68 00:04:09,962 --> 00:04:12,322 Speaker 2: to load shredded taco blend and a garden salad. 69 00:04:15,442 --> 00:04:19,202 Speaker 1: I'm Ben Bollett, I'm Alex French, and in this very 70 00:04:19,242 --> 00:04:22,882 Speaker 1: special episode, we peel back the curtain on the dairy 71 00:04:23,042 --> 00:04:35,642 Speaker 1: industrial complex, also known as Big Parma. Alex, you and 72 00:04:35,722 --> 00:04:38,762 Speaker 1: I have been in some pretty deep rabbit holes before. 73 00:04:39,122 --> 00:04:41,602 Speaker 2: That's right. We created a show called Let's Start a Coup, 74 00:04:41,802 --> 00:04:44,962 Speaker 2: which is about a real pill named Smellley Butler who 75 00:04:45,162 --> 00:04:46,442 Speaker 2: just might have saved America. 76 00:04:46,562 --> 00:04:49,882 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, true story. We sure did. And ever since 77 00:04:49,922 --> 00:04:53,762 Speaker 1: then we've been talking about other weird things. I'm always 78 00:04:53,842 --> 00:04:57,082 Speaker 1: learning new stuff about you. For example, you have never, 79 00:04:57,282 --> 00:04:59,882 Speaker 1: and this is true, drank a glass of milk. 80 00:05:00,082 --> 00:05:03,002 Speaker 2: Not even once. Huh, not even chocolate or strawberry as 81 00:05:03,042 --> 00:05:05,242 Speaker 2: a kid. I escaped it by fanning a milk allergy. 82 00:05:05,762 --> 00:05:08,442 Speaker 2: Another fun fact I do not allow yogurt in my 83 00:05:08,522 --> 00:05:09,562 Speaker 2: house amazing. 84 00:05:09,802 --> 00:05:12,082 Speaker 1: Like, I know you well and I still have a 85 00:05:12,082 --> 00:05:15,522 Speaker 1: hard time believing that. But regardless, it's safe to say 86 00:05:15,562 --> 00:05:18,082 Speaker 1: that you and I are both fans of cheese. 87 00:05:18,202 --> 00:05:21,122 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would commit unspeakable crimes for a piece of 88 00:05:21,122 --> 00:05:25,202 Speaker 2: age parmesan, drizzled and honey. Anyway, not too long ago, 89 00:05:25,242 --> 00:05:27,522 Speaker 2: you reached out to me and our pal Jason English, 90 00:05:27,522 --> 00:05:30,562 Speaker 2: who's executive producer of the show, to ask a pretty 91 00:05:30,562 --> 00:05:31,482 Speaker 2: odd question. 92 00:05:31,602 --> 00:05:36,122 Speaker 1: When did cheese get into everything? How am I am? 93 00:05:36,122 --> 00:05:36,882 Speaker 1: I crazy? 94 00:05:37,002 --> 00:05:38,922 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think cheese is going to be our 95 00:05:38,962 --> 00:05:42,522 Speaker 2: deciding factor for that one, but this question did set 96 00:05:42,602 --> 00:05:46,122 Speaker 2: us on a journey. We started digging, and as we progressed, 97 00:05:46,122 --> 00:05:49,682 Speaker 2: the story just got stranger and stranger. I mean, I 98 00:05:49,762 --> 00:05:52,202 Speaker 2: believe we uncovered a cheese spiarracy. 99 00:05:53,722 --> 00:05:58,722 Speaker 1: Right. So, in nineteen seventy five, the average American consumed 100 00:05:58,762 --> 00:06:02,562 Speaker 1: a little more than fourteen pounds of cheese per year. 101 00:06:03,202 --> 00:06:06,922 Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, the average consumer in the United States 102 00:06:07,122 --> 00:06:11,202 Speaker 1: eight about forty point four pounds of cheese. 103 00:06:11,082 --> 00:06:13,882 Speaker 2: And in twenty twenty two, according to numbers provided by 104 00:06:13,882 --> 00:06:17,882 Speaker 2: the Cheese industrial Complex aka Big Parma, Fromage consumption in 105 00:06:17,922 --> 00:06:20,722 Speaker 2: the United States set an all time high at nearly 106 00:06:20,882 --> 00:06:24,202 Speaker 2: forty two pounds per person, a half pound per person 107 00:06:24,282 --> 00:06:27,882 Speaker 2: increase over the previous year. That is an insane quantity 108 00:06:27,922 --> 00:06:31,682 Speaker 2: of cheese. Insane, I mean, just think about it. Forty 109 00:06:31,802 --> 00:06:35,322 Speaker 2: two pounds. That's two and a half slices of cheese 110 00:06:35,322 --> 00:06:36,762 Speaker 2: per person per day. 111 00:06:37,162 --> 00:06:40,442 Speaker 1: And let's also consider there are scores of people who 112 00:06:40,522 --> 00:06:43,522 Speaker 1: don't dig on dairy at all, you know, vegans and 113 00:06:43,602 --> 00:06:48,082 Speaker 1: folks who, unlike you, are genuinely lactose intolerant. 114 00:06:47,642 --> 00:06:50,482 Speaker 2: Which leads me to wonder, with all those people eating 115 00:06:50,562 --> 00:06:53,162 Speaker 2: zero cheese, who's at the high end of the average. 116 00:06:53,322 --> 00:06:55,962 Speaker 2: Who are these people eating eighty pounds of cheese a year? 117 00:06:56,362 --> 00:06:59,322 Speaker 2: Eighty pounds? Rabbit holes band rabbit holes, Alex. 118 00:06:59,362 --> 00:07:02,922 Speaker 1: And one day those same rabbit holes may themselves be 119 00:07:03,082 --> 00:07:08,122 Speaker 1: stuffed with cheese. You see, folks, cheese iswear these days, 120 00:07:08,402 --> 00:07:13,842 Speaker 1: Cheesy Gordidas, sides of caesu, stuffed crust, pizza, quesa lupas, 121 00:07:14,082 --> 00:07:17,442 Speaker 1: you name it. Things that were once cheeseless are now 122 00:07:17,642 --> 00:07:20,882 Speaker 1: drenched in the stuff. Not that I'm complaining, And. 123 00:07:20,842 --> 00:07:23,322 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. During a recent expedition to the 124 00:07:23,322 --> 00:07:26,842 Speaker 2: grocery store, it struck me that by far more square 125 00:07:26,882 --> 00:07:31,362 Speaker 2: footage and refrigerator space is dedicated to cheese and cheese 126 00:07:31,762 --> 00:07:33,682 Speaker 2: foods than any other product. 127 00:07:34,162 --> 00:07:38,122 Speaker 1: And in the course of your journalism career, you've seen 128 00:07:38,242 --> 00:07:41,802 Speaker 1: tons of trends come and go. I'm sure you've seen 129 00:07:41,922 --> 00:07:46,882 Speaker 1: cheese trends or cheese filtration in ways that I've never imagined. 130 00:07:47,122 --> 00:07:50,122 Speaker 2: Well, how far is too far? I mean, think of Brata. 131 00:07:50,282 --> 00:07:52,802 Speaker 2: One day, about a century ago, some guy said, hey, 132 00:07:53,202 --> 00:07:57,522 Speaker 2: let's put cheese in the cheese. So you and I 133 00:07:57,562 --> 00:08:00,042 Speaker 2: looked around and asked each other, how did we get here? 134 00:08:00,402 --> 00:08:03,442 Speaker 2: Does America just have an organic, insatiable demand for the stuff, 135 00:08:03,882 --> 00:08:04,882 Speaker 2: or is. 136 00:08:04,842 --> 00:08:06,882 Speaker 1: There something smelly afoot? 137 00:08:07,322 --> 00:08:10,202 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe this is all just the result of consumer 138 00:08:10,282 --> 00:08:13,242 Speaker 2: demand and companies giving people what they want, or just 139 00:08:13,362 --> 00:08:17,082 Speaker 2: maybe there is something stinky here, as stinky as an 140 00:08:17,082 --> 00:08:21,482 Speaker 2: old sock stuffed with limburger. To answer that question, to 141 00:08:21,722 --> 00:08:24,322 Speaker 2: really get our heads around big cheese, we have to 142 00:08:24,362 --> 00:08:29,522 Speaker 2: start with something else, the dairy industry, strapping ben there's 143 00:08:29,562 --> 00:08:43,482 Speaker 2: hidden history ahead. Okay, before we go any further, I 144 00:08:43,482 --> 00:08:45,442 Speaker 2: think we have to take a look at what cheese is. 145 00:08:45,962 --> 00:08:51,242 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, Alex imagine describing cheese to aliens, 146 00:08:51,682 --> 00:08:55,482 Speaker 1: or for that matter, describing it to anyone encountering cheese 147 00:08:55,562 --> 00:08:58,962 Speaker 1: for the first time. We'd be like, hey, uh, you 148 00:08:59,002 --> 00:09:02,722 Speaker 1: guys know milk, and they'd be like ew yeah, and 149 00:09:02,762 --> 00:09:05,602 Speaker 1: we'd say, okay, So we take this milk and we 150 00:09:05,802 --> 00:09:09,042 Speaker 1: curdle it and we press it together and get this 151 00:09:09,282 --> 00:09:13,202 Speaker 1: we salted solid milk. It's important to keep in mind 152 00:09:13,322 --> 00:09:18,322 Speaker 1: that people discovered this well before recorded human history, probably 153 00:09:18,362 --> 00:09:22,962 Speaker 1: in step with dairy and domestication. So this hypothetical conversation 154 00:09:23,202 --> 00:09:26,082 Speaker 1: is taking place more than seven thousand years. 155 00:09:25,882 --> 00:09:29,282 Speaker 2: Ago, and no one really knows who invented cheese. The 156 00:09:29,362 --> 00:09:32,802 Speaker 2: technique is that ancient. We do believe, like a lot 157 00:09:32,842 --> 00:09:36,122 Speaker 2: of inventions and discoveries, that ancient people stumbled across this 158 00:09:36,282 --> 00:09:36,962 Speaker 2: by accident. 159 00:09:37,082 --> 00:09:38,962 Speaker 1: Classic human classic. 160 00:09:39,522 --> 00:09:41,562 Speaker 2: From there, let's move forward through the rise of the 161 00:09:41,642 --> 00:09:43,602 Speaker 2: dairy all the way to the United States. 162 00:09:43,842 --> 00:09:48,082 Speaker 1: Yeah, before Europeans arrived in the Americas, there wasn't really 163 00:09:48,242 --> 00:09:52,802 Speaker 1: any big dairy industry to speak of. Indigenous peoples fed 164 00:09:52,842 --> 00:09:58,042 Speaker 1: themselves through hunting, fishing, foraging, agriculture, all the hits. The 165 00:09:58,082 --> 00:10:01,202 Speaker 1: first cows arrived on the continent around the same time 166 00:10:01,522 --> 00:10:05,762 Speaker 1: Christopher Columbus made his second voyage in fourteen ninety three and. 167 00:10:05,682 --> 00:10:09,282 Speaker 2: Spread across the continent soon after. In a very real way, 168 00:10:09,522 --> 00:10:11,842 Speaker 2: cattle were a tool of colonialism. 169 00:10:12,082 --> 00:10:14,962 Speaker 1: Oh I dig it? What does that mean? Exactly? 170 00:10:15,122 --> 00:10:19,042 Speaker 2: Well, think about it. Cattle changed the original landscape. Cattle 171 00:10:19,082 --> 00:10:23,042 Speaker 2: require land, and they also transform it their existence and 172 00:10:23,202 --> 00:10:26,922 Speaker 2: expansion in the America's pushed out native species. This doesn't 173 00:10:26,962 --> 00:10:30,522 Speaker 2: get mentioned often, but the animals Europeans brought over influenced 174 00:10:30,522 --> 00:10:33,202 Speaker 2: the area just as much as the humans. That's what 175 00:10:33,362 --> 00:10:37,842 Speaker 2: leads anthropologists like Rosa E. Faisik to write conquest worked 176 00:10:37,882 --> 00:10:41,762 Speaker 2: indirectly through bodies of cattle taking up more and more space. 177 00:10:43,082 --> 00:10:46,162 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the US has always been in a kind 178 00:10:46,242 --> 00:10:50,562 Speaker 1: of situationship with cheese. Fans of the West Wing may 179 00:10:50,642 --> 00:10:54,682 Speaker 1: remember the old story about former President Andrew Jackson and 180 00:10:54,722 --> 00:10:58,082 Speaker 1: how he kept a ginormous block of cheese right there 181 00:10:58,082 --> 00:11:01,682 Speaker 1: in the White House. While the West Wing is great TV, 182 00:11:02,482 --> 00:11:04,562 Speaker 1: he took some liberties with the story. 183 00:11:04,762 --> 00:11:08,322 Speaker 2: Yeah, the story really starts with Thomas Jeffer. Jefferson was 184 00:11:08,322 --> 00:11:11,962 Speaker 2: given a massive sixteen hundred pound cheese from Western Massachusetts 185 00:11:12,002 --> 00:11:15,082 Speaker 2: as a gift, and later when Jackson was elected, his 186 00:11:15,162 --> 00:11:18,802 Speaker 2: supporters were determined that Jackson should get every honor Jefferson 187 00:11:18,842 --> 00:11:22,522 Speaker 2: got up to and including a cartoonish hunk of cheddar cheese. 188 00:11:22,762 --> 00:11:25,722 Speaker 2: So it wasn't that Jackson necessarily loved cheese that much. 189 00:11:25,802 --> 00:11:27,802 Speaker 2: It was more like political theater. 190 00:11:28,042 --> 00:11:31,442 Speaker 1: Oh oh, and the cheese on tour. Speaking of theater 191 00:11:31,842 --> 00:11:35,602 Speaker 1: before it arrived at the White House, Jackson's White House, 192 00:11:35,642 --> 00:11:39,442 Speaker 1: I mean, the cheese was displayed in Baltimore, New York, 193 00:11:39,562 --> 00:11:40,802 Speaker 1: and Philadelphia. 194 00:11:40,962 --> 00:11:44,562 Speaker 2: Fast forward to Jackson's final party as president in eighteen 195 00:11:44,602 --> 00:11:48,122 Speaker 2: thirty seven. He has a blowout and allows everyone around 196 00:11:48,162 --> 00:11:50,482 Speaker 2: to scarf down as much of the presidential cheese as 197 00:11:50,522 --> 00:11:50,842 Speaker 2: they like. 198 00:11:51,322 --> 00:11:55,762 Speaker 1: According to author Benjamin Purley Poor in his Reminiscences of 199 00:11:55,882 --> 00:12:01,082 Speaker 1: sixty Years in the National Metropolis, this was quite a scene, Poor. 200 00:12:00,922 --> 00:12:04,482 Speaker 2: Writes, four hours did a crowd of men, women and 201 00:12:04,562 --> 00:12:07,642 Speaker 2: boys hack at the cheese, many taking large hunks of 202 00:12:07,682 --> 00:12:11,042 Speaker 2: it away with them. When they commenced that cheese weighed 203 00:12:11,122 --> 00:12:14,682 Speaker 2: one four hundred pounds and only a small piece was 204 00:12:14,722 --> 00:12:18,722 Speaker 2: saved for the president's use, the air was redolent of cheese, 205 00:12:19,042 --> 00:12:22,402 Speaker 2: the carpet was slippery with cheese, and nothing else was 206 00:12:22,442 --> 00:12:25,922 Speaker 2: talked about at Washington that day, even the scandal about 207 00:12:25,922 --> 00:12:28,962 Speaker 2: the wife of the president's secretary of War was forgotten 208 00:12:29,242 --> 00:12:31,922 Speaker 2: in the tumultuous jubilation of that great occasion. 209 00:12:33,442 --> 00:12:35,402 Speaker 1: That honestly sounds like a blast. 210 00:12:35,722 --> 00:12:37,642 Speaker 2: You know, somebody took a nasty slip and fall in 211 00:12:37,682 --> 00:12:38,842 Speaker 2: that cheese slicked carpet. 212 00:12:39,442 --> 00:12:43,562 Speaker 1: Cheese slicked carpet. There's a turtive phrase. It's also important 213 00:12:43,562 --> 00:12:47,002 Speaker 1: for us to note we're already seeing a narrative at play. 214 00:12:47,402 --> 00:12:50,602 Speaker 1: A lot of people believe this big block at cheese 215 00:12:50,802 --> 00:12:54,682 Speaker 1: was a purposeful symbol of democracy that had stood for 216 00:12:54,722 --> 00:12:59,922 Speaker 1: the common people, the tire, the poor, the hungry masses yearning. 217 00:12:59,602 --> 00:13:01,442 Speaker 2: To add a little flavor to their crackers. 218 00:13:01,482 --> 00:13:04,842 Speaker 1: Okay, come on, man, but yeah, you get the drift. 219 00:13:05,162 --> 00:13:08,962 Speaker 1: It's it's the kind of pru just cannot buy cheese, 220 00:13:09,082 --> 00:13:14,682 Speaker 1: or more broadly, dairy means democracy. Something about cheese was 221 00:13:14,722 --> 00:13:18,362 Speaker 1: seen as a unifying force. And this is not an 222 00:13:18,442 --> 00:13:20,562 Speaker 1: originally American idea either. 223 00:13:21,522 --> 00:13:24,282 Speaker 2: In her book Milk, a local and global history professor 224 00:13:24,322 --> 00:13:28,562 Speaker 2: Deborah Vlenz notes Europeans sometimes felt the same way about cheese. 225 00:13:28,642 --> 00:13:31,802 Speaker 2: Everyone ate it, the wealthy ate it for digestion, and 226 00:13:31,802 --> 00:13:35,042 Speaker 2: the poorate it for hunger. But really, again, if we're 227 00:13:35,042 --> 00:13:37,042 Speaker 2: talking cheese, we're talking. 228 00:13:36,802 --> 00:13:40,682 Speaker 1: Milk, and milk is a real pickle. Think about it. 229 00:13:40,682 --> 00:13:43,242 Speaker 1: It's expensive to create at scale. You have to have 230 00:13:43,282 --> 00:13:46,082 Speaker 1: the cows or the goats or the camels or whatever, 231 00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:48,202 Speaker 1: and you have to feed them and care for them, 232 00:13:48,322 --> 00:13:51,442 Speaker 1: and once you ensure they're healthy, you have to milk them. 233 00:13:52,122 --> 00:13:55,482 Speaker 1: And once you have the milk, eight clock starts ticking. 234 00:13:55,642 --> 00:13:58,802 Speaker 2: Because milk is perishable, you have to process and package 235 00:13:58,842 --> 00:14:01,842 Speaker 2: and transport it all in a pretty narrow window of time. 236 00:14:02,322 --> 00:14:04,522 Speaker 2: And if you don't manage to get all those dairy 237 00:14:04,602 --> 00:14:06,322 Speaker 2: ducks in a row and sell the milk before it 238 00:14:06,362 --> 00:14:07,842 Speaker 2: goes bad, you're out. 239 00:14:07,762 --> 00:14:11,762 Speaker 1: Of luck, and you're out of a lot of time, sweat, 240 00:14:11,762 --> 00:14:15,122 Speaker 1: and money as well. This is why for most of 241 00:14:15,202 --> 00:14:19,202 Speaker 1: human history milk production was a local, or at best 242 00:14:19,282 --> 00:14:22,722 Speaker 1: regional affair, and dairy has been with humans for a 243 00:14:22,762 --> 00:14:27,362 Speaker 1: long long time. Despite all the ways milk production can 244 00:14:27,482 --> 00:14:31,722 Speaker 1: possibly go wrong, it usually works. And we love it 245 00:14:31,762 --> 00:14:33,042 Speaker 1: when stuff works, we do. 246 00:14:33,162 --> 00:14:36,082 Speaker 2: But Ben, let's just say you, me and our listeners 247 00:14:36,082 --> 00:14:39,522 Speaker 2: at home are all hypothetically dairy farmers way back. 248 00:14:39,482 --> 00:14:39,882 Speaker 1: In the day. 249 00:14:40,202 --> 00:14:44,442 Speaker 2: We'll call ourselves wholesome creams and kurds, all. 250 00:14:44,482 --> 00:14:46,602 Speaker 1: Right, which time period are we talking. 251 00:14:46,922 --> 00:14:50,042 Speaker 2: Let's go eighteen hundreds, so maybe our outfit needs to 252 00:14:50,082 --> 00:14:53,042 Speaker 2: be called yield creams and kurds, all right, I am 253 00:14:53,122 --> 00:14:56,282 Speaker 2: in Okay, So here we are. It's the eighteen hundreds, 254 00:14:56,322 --> 00:14:58,882 Speaker 2: and we've been going gangbusters on this whole milk thing. 255 00:14:59,282 --> 00:15:02,402 Speaker 2: Our cows are doing great, a little too great. In fact, 256 00:15:02,722 --> 00:15:05,562 Speaker 2: we've sold all the milk we can all around the land. 257 00:15:06,082 --> 00:15:08,522 Speaker 2: Our customers love us, but they can only drink so 258 00:15:08,602 --> 00:15:10,682 Speaker 2: much of the stuff. What do we do next? 259 00:15:11,042 --> 00:15:14,762 Speaker 1: Well, we don't want to dump our hard earned dairy 260 00:15:14,842 --> 00:15:17,642 Speaker 1: down a hole in the ground, and we can't just 261 00:15:17,682 --> 00:15:20,482 Speaker 1: sit on it. We've spent so much time making this stuff. 262 00:15:20,522 --> 00:15:23,602 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, the cows are doing the real work. 263 00:15:23,642 --> 00:15:25,962 Speaker 2: But you know what I'm saying exactly, we can't leave 264 00:15:25,962 --> 00:15:29,122 Speaker 2: this opportunity on the table. If we go wonder, we'll 265 00:15:29,122 --> 00:15:30,882 Speaker 2: be out of a job and there won't be milk 266 00:15:30,922 --> 00:15:32,562 Speaker 2: in the future when demand kicks back in. 267 00:15:33,402 --> 00:15:35,842 Speaker 1: I think I see where you're going. 268 00:15:36,162 --> 00:15:40,322 Speaker 2: Cheese, we transform our notoriously perishable product into something that 269 00:15:40,362 --> 00:15:44,082 Speaker 2: can sit for months years without spoiling, a popular food 270 00:15:44,122 --> 00:15:47,162 Speaker 2: for princes and peasants alike. We might even forego the 271 00:15:47,242 --> 00:15:51,082 Speaker 2: cheese making process ourselves. After all, it's the eighteen hundreds 272 00:15:51,322 --> 00:15:54,442 Speaker 2: and there are already well established cheesemakers and mongers. 273 00:15:54,962 --> 00:15:58,882 Speaker 1: So if the demand for milk isn't there, we shift 274 00:15:59,082 --> 00:16:00,482 Speaker 1: toward a demand for cheese. 275 00:16:00,962 --> 00:16:04,522 Speaker 2: It's a time trusted strategy. And here's the thing. People 276 00:16:04,562 --> 00:16:08,802 Speaker 2: have been doing this in the modern day. Make no mistake, 277 00:16:09,202 --> 00:16:12,682 Speaker 2: the US dairy industry is a juggernaut. It has a 278 00:16:12,722 --> 00:16:15,922 Speaker 2: lot of economic theft. It also ihs heavily on the 279 00:16:15,962 --> 00:16:19,922 Speaker 2: minds of policymakers. At various times in US history, the 280 00:16:20,002 --> 00:16:22,562 Speaker 2: dairy industry becomes a matter of national security. 281 00:16:23,162 --> 00:16:27,802 Speaker 1: Yeah, and jokes aside. It's an odd relationship, isn't it. 282 00:16:27,962 --> 00:16:31,242 Speaker 1: I mean, the Constitution has no role for federal powers 283 00:16:31,282 --> 00:16:35,162 Speaker 1: to regulate farmers. And while there were a few exceptions 284 00:16:35,202 --> 00:16:39,762 Speaker 1: to this general vibe that free enterprise lack of regulation 285 00:16:40,122 --> 00:16:44,042 Speaker 1: was largely par for the course until about the nineteen thirties. 286 00:16:44,362 --> 00:16:46,562 Speaker 2: This is where we enter one of the most pivotal 287 00:16:46,562 --> 00:16:49,082 Speaker 2: times in all of US history, the Great Depression. 288 00:16:49,682 --> 00:16:52,402 Speaker 1: It's just a terrible You always say that, yeah, Alex, 289 00:16:52,482 --> 00:16:56,082 Speaker 1: it's just misleading. But granted you're onto something. 290 00:16:57,362 --> 00:17:00,362 Speaker 2: The Great Depression doesn't refer to the happiness of the people. 291 00:17:00,482 --> 00:17:04,882 Speaker 2: Quite the opposite. Instead, it refers to the sheer magnitude 292 00:17:04,882 --> 00:17:08,322 Speaker 2: of misery felt by the country overall. Farmers were affected 293 00:17:08,362 --> 00:17:12,122 Speaker 2: as horribly as anyone else picture it. People are starving 294 00:17:12,122 --> 00:17:14,922 Speaker 2: in the cities. Droughts trigger the Great Oak migration. 295 00:17:15,362 --> 00:17:18,722 Speaker 1: Yeah, Steinbeck's grapes of wrath didn't come from nowhere. 296 00:17:19,042 --> 00:17:23,882 Speaker 2: And add to this, prices are going insane, Commodity indexes collapsed, 297 00:17:24,442 --> 00:17:28,522 Speaker 2: people in urban centers starve, clamoring for food, and farmers 298 00:17:28,562 --> 00:17:31,042 Speaker 2: are literally throwing away milk to shore up prices. 299 00:17:31,322 --> 00:17:34,762 Speaker 1: Yeah, check out things like the infamous Wisconsin milk strikes 300 00:17:34,762 --> 00:17:39,202 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirty three. We were talking utter chaos. Something 301 00:17:39,442 --> 00:17:40,762 Speaker 1: had to be done. 302 00:17:40,562 --> 00:17:43,322 Speaker 2: On multiple fronts. This is where we see the rise 303 00:17:43,362 --> 00:17:47,722 Speaker 2: of Roosevelt's New Deal, the sweeping legislation sought by Hooker 304 00:17:47,762 --> 00:17:51,802 Speaker 2: by Crook to save the US economy, and part of 305 00:17:51,842 --> 00:17:55,602 Speaker 2: that involved dairy subsidies. It was what we might call a. 306 00:17:55,522 --> 00:18:02,082 Speaker 1: Bailout, most notably through something called the Commodity Credit Corporation, 307 00:18:02,642 --> 00:18:07,522 Speaker 1: created in nineteen thirty three expressly to stabilize port and 308 00:18:07,602 --> 00:18:10,442 Speaker 1: protect farm incomes and prices. 309 00:18:11,082 --> 00:18:13,802 Speaker 2: The US survived the Great Depression, but the Commodity Credit 310 00:18:13,842 --> 00:18:17,922 Speaker 2: Corporation remained. It established a precedent and a trend. 311 00:18:18,082 --> 00:18:23,002 Speaker 1: And these trends continue. Uncle Sam repeatedly supports the dairy 312 00:18:23,042 --> 00:18:27,762 Speaker 1: industry by purchasing surplus milk, just like our fictional milk 313 00:18:27,802 --> 00:18:31,802 Speaker 1: company yield wholesome creams and kurds. In the eighteen hundreds, 314 00:18:32,162 --> 00:18:35,882 Speaker 1: the US again and again finds itself in a corner. 315 00:18:35,922 --> 00:18:39,602 Speaker 1: They buy all this milk, this perishable product, to keep 316 00:18:39,602 --> 00:18:44,002 Speaker 1: people's jobs and an entire industry alive. And they don't 317 00:18:44,042 --> 00:18:45,562 Speaker 1: want that milk to go to waste. 318 00:18:45,922 --> 00:18:47,962 Speaker 2: And this is where we see the rise of butterstock 319 00:18:48,002 --> 00:18:51,562 Speaker 2: piles as well as processed cheese. Think about the nineteen forties. 320 00:18:52,122 --> 00:18:55,162 Speaker 2: Just a few decades later, military kitchens were chalk full 321 00:18:55,202 --> 00:18:57,922 Speaker 2: of the stuff in World War Two. Thankfully this war 322 00:18:57,962 --> 00:19:00,722 Speaker 2: didn't last forever, but after nineteen forty five, the US 323 00:19:00,802 --> 00:19:04,082 Speaker 2: government again found itself in a tough spot. Without all 324 00:19:04,162 --> 00:19:07,362 Speaker 2: these soldiers doing well, it sounds weird to say it. 325 00:19:07,242 --> 00:19:11,162 Speaker 1: Yeah, but without all these soldiers supplying the demand, yeah, 326 00:19:11,202 --> 00:19:11,602 Speaker 1: that's it. 327 00:19:11,682 --> 00:19:14,522 Speaker 2: Really, Without that baked in demand, the US needed to 328 00:19:14,562 --> 00:19:17,602 Speaker 2: find another place to push all these products. We've entered 329 00:19:17,642 --> 00:19:21,122 Speaker 2: the era of public private partnerships. To put it simply, 330 00:19:21,722 --> 00:19:27,402 Speaker 2: cheese lobbies, increasingly powerful interests, organizations and trade groups. They 331 00:19:27,442 --> 00:19:32,522 Speaker 2: form a policy feedback loop. This is big Parma. 332 00:19:35,922 --> 00:19:40,282 Speaker 1: Power begets power, right, So once you have one program 333 00:19:40,322 --> 00:19:44,202 Speaker 1: in place, it becomes as normalized as stuffed crust pizza, 334 00:19:44,402 --> 00:19:47,802 Speaker 1: and pulling that program back can be political suicide. 335 00:19:48,042 --> 00:19:50,842 Speaker 2: Big Parma not only sought that money out, it did 336 00:19:50,882 --> 00:19:53,122 Speaker 2: so in ways that weren't always above board. 337 00:19:53,362 --> 00:19:55,722 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I see where we're going. Shout out to 338 00:19:55,722 --> 00:20:00,042 Speaker 1: our buddy Archibald Cox from back in the days of Watergate. 339 00:20:00,602 --> 00:20:04,602 Speaker 1: Our pal Cox didn't just investigate that June nineteen seventy 340 00:20:04,602 --> 00:20:07,922 Speaker 1: two break in the one that spelled doom, old tricky Dick. 341 00:20:08,322 --> 00:20:11,682 Speaker 1: Cox also looked into a bunch of other alleged crimes. 342 00:20:11,882 --> 00:20:15,722 Speaker 1: In fact, his task force focused largely on something they 343 00:20:15,762 --> 00:20:19,202 Speaker 1: called the Milk Deal, in which a handful of dairy 344 00:20:19,242 --> 00:20:24,242 Speaker 1: cooperatives bribed then President Nixon with hundreds of thousands of 345 00:20:24,322 --> 00:20:29,562 Speaker 1: dollars of campaign contributions, all in exchange for record breaking 346 00:20:29,642 --> 00:20:34,162 Speaker 1: subsidies and tighter import controls on foreign dairy products. 347 00:20:34,362 --> 00:20:37,002 Speaker 2: So, for those of us playing along at home, what 348 00:20:37,042 --> 00:20:37,762 Speaker 2: does that mean? Then? 349 00:20:38,002 --> 00:20:42,682 Speaker 1: It means simply put. They managed to make America say 350 00:20:43,002 --> 00:20:46,042 Speaker 1: we will sell you our milk, and we sure as 351 00:20:46,042 --> 00:20:47,402 Speaker 1: hell are not buying yours. 352 00:20:47,762 --> 00:20:50,202 Speaker 2: This was only one chapter in a much larger story, 353 00:20:50,402 --> 00:20:52,362 Speaker 2: and in the wake of Watergate, a thing that was 354 00:20:52,402 --> 00:20:56,162 Speaker 2: easily forgotten, Uncle Sam scrambled back and forth to keep 355 00:20:56,202 --> 00:20:59,162 Speaker 2: the dairy industry going through the next few decades. The 356 00:20:59,242 --> 00:21:01,482 Speaker 2: history of dairy farming in the twentieth century is really 357 00:21:01,522 --> 00:21:03,762 Speaker 2: about labor. I mean, think about it. The creation of 358 00:21:03,802 --> 00:21:06,882 Speaker 2: cooperatives that set prices and then held strikes or boys 359 00:21:06,962 --> 00:21:09,922 Speaker 2: cots when they weren't treated fairly. When the supply of 360 00:21:10,002 --> 00:21:13,642 Speaker 2: milk drops off due to boycott's or droughts, everyone freaks out. 361 00:21:14,042 --> 00:21:16,562 Speaker 2: Think about the national dairy shortage of the nineteen seventies. 362 00:21:16,722 --> 00:21:20,642 Speaker 1: Ooh, that's when all dairy product prices across the board 363 00:21:20,722 --> 00:21:22,442 Speaker 1: shot up by thirty percent. 364 00:21:22,242 --> 00:21:25,922 Speaker 2: Right exactly. The government intervened, prices plummeted, and in came 365 00:21:26,042 --> 00:21:29,402 Speaker 2: President Jimmy Carter to make another bailout, pouring money like 366 00:21:29,482 --> 00:21:33,122 Speaker 2: milk you could say, into the industry. From nineteen seventy 367 00:21:33,162 --> 00:21:35,842 Speaker 2: seven to nineteen eighty one, this new policy put two 368 00:21:36,522 --> 00:21:39,362 Speaker 2: billion dollars of subsidies into massive milk. 369 00:21:39,282 --> 00:21:44,242 Speaker 1: Which was great in the short term, but without sounding 370 00:21:44,402 --> 00:21:48,362 Speaker 1: like a dairy DeBie Downer. Was this an over correction? 371 00:21:48,682 --> 00:21:51,162 Speaker 1: Do we maybe push the pendulum too far? 372 00:21:51,322 --> 00:21:53,682 Speaker 2: Yeah? This may be the case. Farmers knew they could 373 00:21:53,682 --> 00:21:57,082 Speaker 2: produce as much as possible. They were financially motivated to 374 00:21:57,122 --> 00:22:00,442 Speaker 2: do so because whatever wasn't sold the regular way would 375 00:22:00,522 --> 00:22:04,362 Speaker 2: end up being bought by the government at stabilized, predictable prices. 376 00:22:04,602 --> 00:22:07,922 Speaker 1: Oh oh, I got a presidential voice for this picture. 377 00:22:07,962 --> 00:22:15,242 Speaker 1: It are follow over, our coads. We are Richard moult smirt. 378 00:22:17,122 --> 00:22:18,682 Speaker 2: Man. Not bad seven out of time. 379 00:22:18,682 --> 00:22:21,602 Speaker 1: You're a tough crowd man. But again we see the 380 00:22:21,642 --> 00:22:25,082 Speaker 1: old issue arise. Now the US has all this milk 381 00:22:25,362 --> 00:22:28,442 Speaker 1: with no real market demand for it, but they've paid 382 00:22:28,482 --> 00:22:30,922 Speaker 1: in full and don't want to be ass out on 383 00:22:31,082 --> 00:22:31,482 Speaker 1: the deal. 384 00:22:31,762 --> 00:22:35,242 Speaker 2: Can we say that utterly like you're being utterly ridiculous? 385 00:22:35,322 --> 00:22:38,442 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, fair enough, But you see the problem, 386 00:22:38,482 --> 00:22:40,442 Speaker 1: the dilemma of having all this milk. So what do 387 00:22:40,482 --> 00:22:42,242 Speaker 1: we do with it? We make cheese. 388 00:22:42,282 --> 00:22:44,602 Speaker 2: That's right. It's the nineteen eighties and here we see 389 00:22:44,602 --> 00:22:46,362 Speaker 2: the rise of government cheese. 390 00:22:46,362 --> 00:22:46,722 Speaker 3: Ah. 391 00:22:46,802 --> 00:22:50,682 Speaker 1: Yes, government cheese bought and stored by the Commodity Credit 392 00:22:50,722 --> 00:22:52,762 Speaker 1: Corporation from earlier. 393 00:22:52,682 --> 00:22:56,042 Speaker 2: And the public, to be clear, didn't necessarily love this idea. 394 00:22:56,242 --> 00:22:58,162 Speaker 2: Some folks in the US saw this as a slap 395 00:22:58,202 --> 00:23:00,722 Speaker 2: in the face. Think about it, You're going hungry and 396 00:23:00,802 --> 00:23:03,722 Speaker 2: your own government has this crazy stockpile of food. 397 00:23:04,122 --> 00:23:06,562 Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it, you get it. We can all 398 00:23:07,122 --> 00:23:11,642 Speaker 1: stand that. As a result of public or perhaps manufactured outcry, 399 00:23:11,962 --> 00:23:15,602 Speaker 1: then President Ronald Reagan both cut the US food stamp 400 00:23:15,642 --> 00:23:20,122 Speaker 1: budget and rolled out government cheese for direct distribution back 401 00:23:20,162 --> 00:23:23,882 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty two. Under the auspice of the USD eight. 402 00:23:24,042 --> 00:23:27,762 Speaker 1: This was touted as a panacea for hunger, sort of 403 00:23:27,802 --> 00:23:30,922 Speaker 1: a two birds with one breeze situation. Does that one? 404 00:23:31,042 --> 00:23:31,962 Speaker 2: Does that work? 405 00:23:32,082 --> 00:23:36,522 Speaker 1: Okay? So they're addressing hunger while also ensuring the continuation 406 00:23:36,802 --> 00:23:37,802 Speaker 1: of this industry. 407 00:23:38,082 --> 00:23:42,002 Speaker 2: Again, we've got the supply, we find the demand. Reagan's 408 00:23:42,042 --> 00:23:44,802 Speaker 2: Agriculture and Food Act of nineteen eighty one both acknowledged 409 00:23:44,802 --> 00:23:48,002 Speaker 2: the massive stockpile of cheese and at the same time 410 00:23:48,162 --> 00:23:51,922 Speaker 2: decreed it would be distributed to the needy and nonprofit organizations. 411 00:23:52,682 --> 00:23:56,602 Speaker 2: Any state that asked would get thirty million pounds of cheese. 412 00:23:56,682 --> 00:24:00,282 Speaker 2: What take that, Jackson? This also guarantee that the US 413 00:24:00,322 --> 00:24:02,202 Speaker 2: would continue supporting big Parma. 414 00:24:02,322 --> 00:24:06,522 Speaker 1: So it goes that. Same year, nineteen eighty one, the 415 00:24:06,602 --> 00:24:11,202 Speaker 1: second Mitary of Agriculture, John R. Block told reporters, referring 416 00:24:11,242 --> 00:24:14,162 Speaker 1: to all these pounds of cheese, he said, we've got 417 00:24:14,242 --> 00:24:18,322 Speaker 1: sixty million of these that the government owns. It's moldy, 418 00:24:18,642 --> 00:24:22,242 Speaker 1: it's deteriorating. We can't find a market for it, we 419 00:24:22,322 --> 00:24:24,762 Speaker 1: can't sell it, and we're looking to give some of 420 00:24:24,802 --> 00:24:25,242 Speaker 1: it away. 421 00:24:25,602 --> 00:24:29,922 Speaker 2: We're off to the races here. Let's talk economy of scale, 422 00:24:30,202 --> 00:24:33,042 Speaker 2: which is just a fancy term meeting prices go down 423 00:24:33,282 --> 00:24:35,642 Speaker 2: when you have more output and better infrastructure. 424 00:24:35,802 --> 00:24:39,602 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why, for example, a single guy making shoes 425 00:24:39,642 --> 00:24:42,882 Speaker 1: by hand is almost always going to have to sell 426 00:24:42,922 --> 00:24:46,362 Speaker 1: his shoes for more than the big companies making thousands 427 00:24:46,402 --> 00:24:47,762 Speaker 1: of shoes every day. 428 00:24:48,002 --> 00:24:50,642 Speaker 2: And we saw this with the US dairy industry. Back 429 00:24:50,642 --> 00:24:53,482 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven, the median dairy farm had eighty 430 00:24:53,522 --> 00:24:57,802 Speaker 2: cows or fewer. Today it's about nine hundred. Economies of 431 00:24:57,842 --> 00:25:00,762 Speaker 2: scale have driven costs down and bolstered output. 432 00:25:01,122 --> 00:25:04,322 Speaker 1: And on top of that, the average dairy cow is 433 00:25:04,402 --> 00:25:08,482 Speaker 1: producing more milk than ever. Thank you to some at times, 434 00:25:08,522 --> 00:25:13,082 Speaker 1: sinister decisions on breeding and diet. We've got government cheese, 435 00:25:13,122 --> 00:25:17,242 Speaker 1: we've got dairy products as cheese infiltrated as possible into 436 00:25:17,322 --> 00:25:21,642 Speaker 1: the military supply chain, and improvements in global trade mean 437 00:25:21,802 --> 00:25:26,322 Speaker 1: we can ship stuff fast, finding that ever elusive demand 438 00:25:26,482 --> 00:25:29,122 Speaker 1: in markets, countries and continents away. 439 00:25:29,402 --> 00:25:32,482 Speaker 2: And this gets us to your original questions, how did 440 00:25:32,562 --> 00:25:36,522 Speaker 2: cheese get in everything? Why was the demand always there 441 00:25:36,682 --> 00:25:39,202 Speaker 2: or was it to some degree manufactured? 442 00:25:39,402 --> 00:25:43,362 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, Alex, did big cheese win the game? Or 443 00:25:43,402 --> 00:25:44,642 Speaker 1: did someone rig it? 444 00:25:45,042 --> 00:25:48,882 Speaker 2: I imagine saying rigged might put some people off spoil 445 00:25:48,922 --> 00:25:49,842 Speaker 2: their milk, soda. 446 00:25:49,682 --> 00:25:53,322 Speaker 1: Say, but it's a valid question, and we can also 447 00:25:53,362 --> 00:25:56,362 Speaker 1: see why people might look askance at this. But at 448 00:25:56,402 --> 00:25:59,242 Speaker 1: the same time we can argue this is as Homer 449 00:25:59,282 --> 00:26:03,802 Speaker 1: Simpson would have said in Beginning Opportunities. We're taking dairy 450 00:26:03,842 --> 00:26:08,402 Speaker 1: products outside of the US. We're leveraging and nonprofits to 451 00:26:08,482 --> 00:26:11,882 Speaker 1: move milk and cheese around the world. Plus, of course, 452 00:26:12,282 --> 00:26:15,562 Speaker 1: with each step we're keeping domestic farmers in business, which. 453 00:26:15,402 --> 00:26:19,762 Speaker 2: All sounds great until that global market collapses in ocean away. 454 00:26:19,802 --> 00:26:23,042 Speaker 2: The nation of China grappled with its own problems when 455 00:26:23,122 --> 00:26:26,642 Speaker 2: demand for dairy products in the Chinese market imploded, which 456 00:26:26,682 --> 00:26:29,682 Speaker 2: has happened several times, including just this year in twenty 457 00:26:29,722 --> 00:26:34,002 Speaker 2: twenty four, Yet again, Uncle Sam found itself in a pickle. 458 00:26:34,042 --> 00:26:35,562 Speaker 1: Holy? Is this the part? 459 00:26:35,842 --> 00:26:39,122 Speaker 2: This is the answer to the question sort of, Oh yeah. 460 00:26:39,002 --> 00:26:42,682 Speaker 1: Alex, can we please do a little trade industry ad? 461 00:26:42,922 --> 00:26:43,682 Speaker 2: I don't see why not. 462 00:26:44,362 --> 00:26:47,202 Speaker 1: Real milk has eight times more protein than almond milk. 463 00:26:47,602 --> 00:26:49,842 Speaker 2: Real milk has naturally occurring calcium. 464 00:26:49,882 --> 00:26:52,242 Speaker 3: Almond milk doesn't amory, and it also only has two 465 00:26:52,282 --> 00:26:54,082 Speaker 3: percent almonds, which looks like this. 466 00:26:54,642 --> 00:26:57,682 Speaker 1: What's the other ninety eight percent? Get real, get naturally 467 00:26:57,762 --> 00:27:04,962 Speaker 1: nutritious real milk. So that's bonkers, right? We got ads 468 00:27:05,002 --> 00:27:08,202 Speaker 1: for not a specific brand of a thing, just the 469 00:27:08,602 --> 00:27:11,122 Speaker 1: general idea of milk. 470 00:27:11,122 --> 00:27:14,002 Speaker 2: And marketing groups for the general idea of milk had 471 00:27:14,042 --> 00:27:17,042 Speaker 2: already popped up pretty early in the twentieth century. There 472 00:27:17,082 --> 00:27:20,442 Speaker 2: are plenty of other examples as well, beef, pork, you 473 00:27:20,522 --> 00:27:23,442 Speaker 2: get it. For quite some time, the United States has 474 00:27:23,482 --> 00:27:28,042 Speaker 2: disguised national security through a proxy program of interdependent quasi 475 00:27:28,082 --> 00:27:31,722 Speaker 2: private industries attempting to extol the virtues of a given 476 00:27:31,762 --> 00:27:36,562 Speaker 2: product instead of telling the American public the truth. Come on, man, 477 00:27:36,642 --> 00:27:37,322 Speaker 2: this is my part. 478 00:27:37,522 --> 00:27:40,162 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just you know, people need to know, well, 479 00:27:40,762 --> 00:27:43,402 Speaker 1: are we doing the show? Absolutely, dude. We are the 480 00:27:43,522 --> 00:27:46,762 Speaker 1: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of this whole cheese thing, the Moulder 481 00:27:46,842 --> 00:27:56,482 Speaker 1: and Scully. I love it. I want to believe. Let's 482 00:27:56,482 --> 00:27:57,602 Speaker 1: go to twenty seventeen. 483 00:27:57,842 --> 00:28:01,042 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were one point three billion pounds of cheese 484 00:28:01,082 --> 00:28:04,082 Speaker 2: and cold storage, and no small part due to two 485 00:28:04,282 --> 00:28:07,522 Speaker 2: separate federal announcements that the US would purchase something like 486 00:28:07,842 --> 00:28:11,042 Speaker 2: twenty million dollars worth of dairy surplus for distribution to 487 00:28:11,082 --> 00:28:12,322 Speaker 2: food pantries. 488 00:28:12,442 --> 00:28:14,282 Speaker 1: Because we have to keep it. 489 00:28:14,242 --> 00:28:17,682 Speaker 2: Going, because someone says we have to keep it going, 490 00:28:18,082 --> 00:28:21,282 Speaker 2: and that someone is the dairy farmers. 491 00:28:22,242 --> 00:28:25,282 Speaker 1: It's crazy that you seriously have never drank a glass 492 00:28:25,282 --> 00:28:25,842 Speaker 1: of milk. 493 00:28:25,642 --> 00:28:29,602 Speaker 2: Never, not at once. It's gross. Moving on, moving on. 494 00:28:30,562 --> 00:28:33,562 Speaker 2: In an August twenty sixteen letter, the National Milk Producers 495 00:28:33,602 --> 00:28:36,962 Speaker 2: Federation begged the USDA for one hundred and fifty million 496 00:28:37,042 --> 00:28:41,082 Speaker 2: dollar bailout. Ben, have you ever heard of Dairy Management Incorporated? 497 00:28:41,602 --> 00:28:44,282 Speaker 1: Do I do I do a voice here? Or do 498 00:28:44,362 --> 00:28:45,602 Speaker 1: we just roll with it? All? Right? 499 00:28:45,642 --> 00:28:48,562 Speaker 2: Fine, it's a soft move. You know about DMI. I 500 00:28:48,642 --> 00:28:51,522 Speaker 2: know about DMI, and we're both hoping you listening along 501 00:28:51,562 --> 00:28:53,522 Speaker 2: at home will learn a little bit about it too. 502 00:28:53,842 --> 00:28:57,762 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Without getting into the milk weeds, folks, there 503 00:28:57,802 --> 00:29:02,042 Speaker 1: are trade organizations, a concentrated group of government and private 504 00:29:02,122 --> 00:29:07,002 Speaker 1: industry concerns, all actively working right now as we record 505 00:29:07,122 --> 00:29:10,642 Speaker 1: to make sure the production of dairy products meets some 506 00:29:10,722 --> 00:29:14,922 Speaker 1: sort of demand. And if we cannot find that demand naturally, 507 00:29:15,202 --> 00:29:15,722 Speaker 1: we will. 508 00:29:16,042 --> 00:29:19,082 Speaker 2: We will make it an inherently American approach to the problem. 509 00:29:19,122 --> 00:29:21,642 Speaker 1: And this is where we enter that story of dairy 510 00:29:21,682 --> 00:29:25,682 Speaker 1: management Incorporated. It's fair to say that a lot of 511 00:29:25,682 --> 00:29:27,002 Speaker 1: people have never heard of this. 512 00:29:27,042 --> 00:29:29,202 Speaker 2: Group, which is a shame because they're one of our 513 00:29:29,282 --> 00:29:33,242 Speaker 2: key characters. DMI is a trade association funded through the 514 00:29:33,322 --> 00:29:36,642 Speaker 2: Dairy Promotion Program, which is in turn funded by government 515 00:29:36,682 --> 00:29:40,042 Speaker 2: regulations requiring dairy farmers to pay three dollars and thirty 516 00:29:40,042 --> 00:29:43,362 Speaker 2: one cents per metric ton on all milk produced and 517 00:29:43,402 --> 00:29:47,402 Speaker 2: marketed in the forty eight contiguous states. DMI is the 518 00:29:47,402 --> 00:29:49,442 Speaker 2: beating heart of Big Parma. 519 00:29:49,522 --> 00:29:53,602 Speaker 1: And DMI was originally created by the US Department of 520 00:29:53,602 --> 00:29:59,122 Speaker 1: Agriculture way back in nineteen ninety five. Wheels within cheese wheels. Indeed, 521 00:29:59,882 --> 00:30:04,522 Speaker 1: this already sounds like a bunch of odd companies passing 522 00:30:04,682 --> 00:30:08,202 Speaker 1: money around, maybe on the slide, but to be fair, 523 00:30:08,682 --> 00:30:12,562 Speaker 1: they won't describe themselves as odd or sinister. We have 524 00:30:12,602 --> 00:30:15,202 Speaker 1: to remember there are no quote unquote bad guys in 525 00:30:15,242 --> 00:30:15,722 Speaker 1: the story. 526 00:30:15,802 --> 00:30:18,242 Speaker 2: But have you noticed been that like in movies these days, 527 00:30:18,682 --> 00:30:22,082 Speaker 2: the only people who drink milk are like weird villains 528 00:30:22,082 --> 00:30:23,162 Speaker 2: and yes, little kids. 529 00:30:23,242 --> 00:30:24,642 Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, Yeah. 530 00:30:24,282 --> 00:30:27,042 Speaker 2: I would absolutely describe the stuff crust pizza as a 531 00:30:27,082 --> 00:30:28,362 Speaker 2: crime against gastronomy. 532 00:30:28,722 --> 00:30:33,002 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's that old line? History is written by the victors. 533 00:30:32,882 --> 00:30:35,082 Speaker 2: And we're still in the turn of history here. We 534 00:30:35,122 --> 00:30:38,682 Speaker 2: reached out to multiple sources for answers at DMI. On 535 00:30:38,722 --> 00:30:41,042 Speaker 2: a phone call, I told the media relations flack with 536 00:30:41,122 --> 00:30:43,362 Speaker 2: the company that we wanted to learn about dairy as 537 00:30:43,402 --> 00:30:47,362 Speaker 2: an industry that innovates, about the history of DMI, about 538 00:30:47,362 --> 00:30:49,922 Speaker 2: their work with the big fast food chains, about the 539 00:30:49,922 --> 00:30:53,122 Speaker 2: got Milk campaign, and their response was a little, I 540 00:30:53,122 --> 00:30:55,762 Speaker 2: don't know, disingenuous, Dear Alex. 541 00:30:56,162 --> 00:30:58,642 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we don't have anyone who'd be a good fit 542 00:30:58,722 --> 00:31:01,402 Speaker 1: to answer questions on all the topics you mentioned you'd 543 00:31:01,482 --> 00:31:06,242 Speaker 1: like to include in this upcoming episode. Well, Alex, if 544 00:31:06,242 --> 00:31:10,362 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like a clandestine cabal of cheese operatives. 545 00:31:11,162 --> 00:31:14,922 Speaker 1: I don't know what does we do know? DMI is 546 00:31:14,962 --> 00:31:18,802 Speaker 1: one of our most easily identifiable gosh. I don't want 547 00:31:18,842 --> 00:31:23,002 Speaker 1: to say culprits, but they're the collective protagonists for getting 548 00:31:23,082 --> 00:31:25,282 Speaker 1: cheese into more American food products. 549 00:31:25,682 --> 00:31:29,482 Speaker 2: Yep. They've worked with McDonald's, Pizzahu, Wendy's, Taco Bell, you 550 00:31:29,562 --> 00:31:33,482 Speaker 2: name it. If there's a way of injecting cheese into something, 551 00:31:33,682 --> 00:31:35,002 Speaker 2: they've probably invented it. 552 00:31:35,242 --> 00:31:38,002 Speaker 1: There's another thing all of us listening along need to know. 553 00:31:38,602 --> 00:31:42,362 Speaker 1: Why does this work so successfully? I would posit the 554 00:31:42,482 --> 00:31:46,562 Speaker 1: answer is found in evolution. Humans evolved to prize high 555 00:31:46,562 --> 00:31:50,242 Speaker 1: fat unctious food stuffs, and cheese fits the bill. But 556 00:31:50,482 --> 00:31:55,042 Speaker 1: Jesus definitely not perfect. Surprisingly enough, some of the most 557 00:31:55,122 --> 00:31:59,722 Speaker 1: strident criticisms of big Parma come from physicians, and. 558 00:31:59,682 --> 00:32:01,522 Speaker 2: We have to be at front about this. Cheese is 559 00:32:01,562 --> 00:32:04,402 Speaker 2: an ancient art, but it does have some potentially dangerous 560 00:32:04,402 --> 00:32:07,322 Speaker 2: effects on your health. Obesity is an up in the 561 00:32:07,402 --> 00:32:10,402 Speaker 2: United States and abroad. Milk and other dairy products are 562 00:32:10,602 --> 00:32:13,002 Speaker 2: the top source of saturated fat in the American diet, 563 00:32:13,322 --> 00:32:17,762 Speaker 2: contributing to heart disease, type two diabetes and Alzheimer's. Studies 564 00:32:17,802 --> 00:32:20,642 Speaker 2: have also linkedairy to an increased risk of breast, ovarian 565 00:32:20,722 --> 00:32:23,602 Speaker 2: and prostate cancers. There's a whole bunch of good stuff 566 00:32:23,642 --> 00:32:26,762 Speaker 2: in milk, calcium, protein, vitamin D, for instance, But it's 567 00:32:26,762 --> 00:32:29,122 Speaker 2: not like dairy is the only source for those things. 568 00:32:29,642 --> 00:32:34,082 Speaker 1: Yeah, and DMI in particular has a long history of 569 00:32:34,162 --> 00:32:38,402 Speaker 1: cheese filtration. By their own account, this organization works with 570 00:32:38,562 --> 00:32:43,922 Speaker 1: leading restaurant chains, grocery stores like Kroger, and food manufacturers 571 00:32:44,002 --> 00:32:48,122 Speaker 1: like General Mills, all of whom collectively invest hundreds of 572 00:32:48,282 --> 00:32:52,642 Speaker 1: millions of dollars in marketing efforts and advertising campaigns to 573 00:32:52,762 --> 00:32:55,322 Speaker 1: promote their dairy centric menu items. 574 00:32:55,402 --> 00:32:59,242 Speaker 2: The McDonald's mcflurry, the five cheese mac and cheese at Dominoes, 575 00:32:59,722 --> 00:33:02,842 Speaker 2: a Grandma style pizza pizza hut that eliminated crust so 576 00:33:03,122 --> 00:33:05,122 Speaker 2: cheese could be piled all the way to the outer 577 00:33:05,362 --> 00:33:06,802 Speaker 2: margins of the pie. 578 00:33:07,042 --> 00:33:11,562 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the result, folks, through these various and alex 579 00:33:11,602 --> 00:33:14,522 Speaker 1: I'm not yet calling it a proxy war. Through these 580 00:33:14,562 --> 00:33:19,482 Speaker 1: proxy entities, DMI has moved an astonishing seven point five 581 00:33:19,722 --> 00:33:23,242 Speaker 1: billion pounds of dairy. And you know what, man, this 582 00:33:23,322 --> 00:33:25,522 Speaker 1: is aggravating because I can't even get away with a 583 00:33:25,602 --> 00:33:26,882 Speaker 1: late fee at the library. 584 00:33:28,202 --> 00:33:31,482 Speaker 2: We mentioned the high level version of this, Let's get 585 00:33:31,522 --> 00:33:36,882 Speaker 2: to the nitty gritty. These cheese drenched culinary Frankenstein's aren't 586 00:33:36,922 --> 00:33:38,842 Speaker 2: the result of organic supply and demand. 587 00:33:39,362 --> 00:33:42,522 Speaker 1: Yeah. The more we learn about it, the less DMI 588 00:33:42,642 --> 00:33:45,082 Speaker 1: seems like a trade group, and the more it seems 589 00:33:45,122 --> 00:33:49,482 Speaker 1: like a think tank Rand corporation style, but with cheddar. 590 00:33:49,522 --> 00:33:53,682 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. DMI employs a panoply of dairy scientists 591 00:33:53,682 --> 00:33:56,962 Speaker 2: working not just hand in hand, but on site with 592 00:33:57,042 --> 00:34:00,282 Speaker 2: like their own offices, at the headquarters of your favorite 593 00:34:00,322 --> 00:34:05,202 Speaker 2: fast food joints, eternally brainstorming new ways to inundate the 594 00:34:05,242 --> 00:34:10,562 Speaker 2: American and international diet with dairy product, cheese in particular. 595 00:34:11,002 --> 00:34:15,122 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is not just some kind of disturbing 596 00:34:15,322 --> 00:34:20,242 Speaker 1: campfire story, Alex. You actually did some digging into a 597 00:34:20,522 --> 00:34:23,602 Speaker 1: specific dairy scientist over at DMI. Yeah. 598 00:34:23,682 --> 00:34:26,002 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, late one night I trilled the Internet looking 599 00:34:26,042 --> 00:34:29,042 Speaker 2: for evidence of DMI dirty work, and I stumbled on 600 00:34:29,042 --> 00:34:32,362 Speaker 2: this video of a cheese operative named Mike Seresi doing 601 00:34:32,362 --> 00:34:34,562 Speaker 2: an interview about his gig working in the Taco Bell 602 00:34:34,602 --> 00:34:35,562 Speaker 2: innovation kitchen. 603 00:34:35,842 --> 00:34:39,002 Speaker 1: Alex, you're making it sound like you're about to unveil 604 00:34:39,082 --> 00:34:43,082 Speaker 1: the smoking gun that proves a global cheese spiracy. 605 00:34:42,842 --> 00:34:46,122 Speaker 2: More like a smoking good eband the whole video was 606 00:34:46,122 --> 00:34:48,962 Speaker 2: a little off putting if I'm being honest, Sersi, is 607 00:34:49,002 --> 00:34:51,722 Speaker 2: this guy talking about how glorious it is being embedded 608 00:34:51,762 --> 00:34:54,322 Speaker 2: as a dairy operative in a top American food chain, 609 00:34:54,762 --> 00:34:57,882 Speaker 2: pumping what I would call harmful ingredients into foods so 610 00:34:57,922 --> 00:34:59,962 Speaker 2: that the dairy industry can turn bigger profits. 611 00:35:00,442 --> 00:35:03,642 Speaker 1: At one point, the interviewer asked Sersi about some of 612 00:35:03,682 --> 00:35:07,122 Speaker 1: the winds he's had over the years. Ms. 613 00:35:07,122 --> 00:35:09,762 Speaker 4: Mike Serising, I'm a dairy scientist with DMI. I have 614 00:35:09,882 --> 00:35:13,762 Speaker 4: been working in research and development for about fifteen years now, 615 00:35:13,922 --> 00:35:18,482 Speaker 4: mostly focused on dairy science, and I first joined DMI 616 00:35:18,682 --> 00:35:22,602 Speaker 4: back in twenty thirteen, where I had the amazing opportunity 617 00:35:22,682 --> 00:35:25,202 Speaker 4: to join the Taco Bell team on behalf of THEMI 618 00:35:25,642 --> 00:35:28,202 Speaker 4: working in their test kitchen and developing new products for 619 00:35:28,282 --> 00:35:31,322 Speaker 4: the menu. We've had some really great successful launches over 620 00:35:31,362 --> 00:35:33,602 Speaker 4: the year. Just a couple that come to mind is 621 00:35:33,602 --> 00:35:36,842 Speaker 4: the Ca Salupa that was a truly innovative product. It 622 00:35:36,882 --> 00:35:40,762 Speaker 4: was a cheese stuffshell had a massive media promotion behind it. 623 00:35:40,802 --> 00:35:43,442 Speaker 4: We actually had a TV ad that ran during the 624 00:35:43,522 --> 00:35:45,522 Speaker 4: Super Bowl, so that was just super exciting. 625 00:35:47,002 --> 00:35:50,082 Speaker 1: Folks. We're an audio show, so it's important for you 626 00:35:50,162 --> 00:35:53,402 Speaker 1: to know. While Ceresi is saying all of these things 627 00:35:53,402 --> 00:35:56,762 Speaker 1: you just heard, a bunch of information cards are popping 628 00:35:56,802 --> 00:36:00,882 Speaker 1: onto the screen and the stats look bonkers. Before DMI support, 629 00:36:00,962 --> 00:36:04,042 Speaker 1: tacos contained about a quarter of an ounce of cheese. 630 00:36:04,322 --> 00:36:07,962 Speaker 1: Thanks to this partnership, new food items contain about five 631 00:36:08,042 --> 00:36:09,922 Speaker 1: to ten times more cheese. 632 00:36:10,362 --> 00:36:12,602 Speaker 2: The discussion leads to the beverage category. 633 00:36:12,642 --> 00:36:15,202 Speaker 1: Oh man, yeah, yeah, Alex. Have you ever had a 634 00:36:15,242 --> 00:36:18,522 Speaker 1: Pineapple Whip or the Baja Blast Kalauda? 635 00:36:18,722 --> 00:36:20,642 Speaker 2: I have not, but I do know that Taco Bell 636 00:36:20,722 --> 00:36:23,522 Speaker 2: is owned by Pepsi Company and the Pineapple Whip was 637 00:36:23,602 --> 00:36:26,682 Speaker 2: their first dairy drink. But the way sor Recei talks 638 00:36:26,682 --> 00:36:30,322 Speaker 2: about the process of reverse engineering those drinks is kind of, 639 00:36:30,402 --> 00:36:32,562 Speaker 2: I don't know, alarming. Here he is again. 640 00:36:33,002 --> 00:36:36,442 Speaker 4: We also have a new dairy dessert beverage that's testing 641 00:36:36,482 --> 00:36:38,482 Speaker 4: in market, which we're really excited about. 642 00:36:39,682 --> 00:36:43,402 Speaker 1: I'm getting diabetes just thinking about this one. Surely it 643 00:36:43,442 --> 00:36:44,282 Speaker 1: was discontinued. 644 00:36:44,402 --> 00:36:47,642 Speaker 2: You're correct. In fact, we could do an entire episode 645 00:36:47,682 --> 00:36:51,682 Speaker 2: on discontinued fast food products, but both the pineapple whip 646 00:36:51,882 --> 00:36:54,562 Speaker 2: and the grilled cheese burrito were one hundred percent the 647 00:36:54,602 --> 00:36:58,122 Speaker 2: result of DMI intervention. How do we get more dairy 648 00:36:58,202 --> 00:36:59,162 Speaker 2: in more things? 649 00:36:59,842 --> 00:37:03,402 Speaker 1: You know, it's weird, isn't it? Just philosophically, it is 650 00:37:03,442 --> 00:37:08,962 Speaker 1: a bizarre proposition, creating demand demand where a natural demand 651 00:37:09,002 --> 00:37:12,162 Speaker 1: does not exist. I'll say it. It feels like a 652 00:37:12,202 --> 00:37:14,242 Speaker 1: good time for some serious questions. 653 00:37:14,882 --> 00:37:16,722 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is where I start to have 654 00:37:16,762 --> 00:37:20,002 Speaker 2: problems too, the idea of injecting cheese into something not 655 00:37:20,042 --> 00:37:22,962 Speaker 2: because it enhances the flavor or healthfulness of the food, 656 00:37:23,522 --> 00:37:26,282 Speaker 2: but because it drives up profits for the dairy industry. 657 00:37:26,882 --> 00:37:30,202 Speaker 2: In this way, Big Parma bears an alarming resemblance to 658 00:37:30,242 --> 00:37:33,682 Speaker 2: the tobacco or liquor industries. Knowing that you're creating a 659 00:37:33,682 --> 00:37:36,402 Speaker 2: product that's going to make people fat and sick and 660 00:37:36,522 --> 00:37:39,322 Speaker 2: doing it anyway. And at the same time, Big Parma 661 00:37:39,402 --> 00:37:42,522 Speaker 2: covers its cellulate pocked rear end to seem like you know, 662 00:37:42,642 --> 00:37:46,282 Speaker 2: the good guys by forming strategic partnerships with the Mayo 663 00:37:46,322 --> 00:37:49,362 Speaker 2: Clinic too, and I'm quoting here, improve public health and 664 00:37:49,402 --> 00:37:53,922 Speaker 2: advance dairies benefits, including the role full fat dairy may 665 00:37:54,002 --> 00:37:58,042 Speaker 2: play in cardiovascular and metabolic conditions. That's sort of like 666 00:37:58,162 --> 00:38:01,722 Speaker 2: you know, Exxon Mobile or British Petroleum claiming to do 667 00:38:01,762 --> 00:38:03,522 Speaker 2: good bye researching climate. 668 00:38:03,242 --> 00:38:07,442 Speaker 1: Change the Mayo clinic. Huh, yes, Alex, there's got to 669 00:38:07,482 --> 00:38:10,842 Speaker 1: be a cheese and mayo joke in here somewhere, right. 670 00:38:10,762 --> 00:38:12,242 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about a serious thing. 671 00:38:12,202 --> 00:38:15,642 Speaker 1: Then, Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, but what if it's like, 672 00:38:15,802 --> 00:38:18,242 Speaker 1: what if we do a thing where people buy mayonnaise 673 00:38:18,282 --> 00:38:21,282 Speaker 1: and cheese together? Gross, dude, I know, but I'm saying, 674 00:38:21,322 --> 00:38:23,762 Speaker 1: what if it's like you buy another condiment and they 675 00:38:23,802 --> 00:38:27,282 Speaker 1: just start putting cheese in there. Cat cheese up to 676 00:38:27,562 --> 00:38:28,962 Speaker 1: other examples. 677 00:38:29,242 --> 00:38:33,082 Speaker 2: Then this is a very special episode. Okay, Okay, seriously, man, 678 00:38:33,642 --> 00:38:35,322 Speaker 2: you asked us to look into it, and we're doing 679 00:38:35,402 --> 00:38:37,962 Speaker 2: puns now at the end of a pretty damning investigation 680 00:38:38,082 --> 00:38:39,802 Speaker 2: into an extremely grave issue. 681 00:38:39,842 --> 00:38:44,442 Speaker 1: All right, all right, yes, I hear you. Focus, all right, okay, 682 00:38:44,482 --> 00:38:49,362 Speaker 1: focusing and Justina side, Alex, I do understand what you're saying. 683 00:38:50,002 --> 00:38:53,762 Speaker 1: I'm still going to eat cheese though, like a lot 684 00:38:54,002 --> 00:38:57,562 Speaker 1: of it? Are you and I cool? I guess? 685 00:38:57,682 --> 00:39:00,842 Speaker 2: I mean I would expect nothing less. And millions of 686 00:39:00,882 --> 00:39:04,242 Speaker 2: Americans have made the same choice including. 687 00:39:03,802 --> 00:39:08,322 Speaker 1: Me agreed, and whether we're talking about fanatics or strict 688 00:39:08,402 --> 00:39:11,602 Speaker 1: vegans who don't need anything, they cast a shadow. It's 689 00:39:11,722 --> 00:39:15,322 Speaker 1: crucial to understand how a phenomenon like this occurs, and 690 00:39:15,362 --> 00:39:19,122 Speaker 1: perhaps more importantly, why, Alex, would you say it's fair 691 00:39:19,162 --> 00:39:21,602 Speaker 1: to call this a legit conspiracy. 692 00:39:23,322 --> 00:39:30,202 Speaker 2: I'd say we should call it a chiefs spiracy. 693 00:39:32,962 --> 00:39:35,882 Speaker 3: Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people. 694 00:39:36,482 --> 00:39:39,602 Speaker 3: This show is hosted by Danish Schwartz, Zaren Burnett and 695 00:39:39,722 --> 00:39:43,722 Speaker 3: Jason English. Today's episode was written and hosted by Very 696 00:39:43,722 --> 00:39:48,002 Speaker 3: Special guest stars Ben Bolin and Alex French. Our producer 697 00:39:48,122 --> 00:39:52,482 Speaker 3: is Josh Fisher. Editing and sound design by Chris Childs. 698 00:39:52,962 --> 00:39:57,962 Speaker 3: Additional editing by Mary Doo, mixing and mastering by Behead Fraser. 699 00:39:58,482 --> 00:40:02,722 Speaker 3: Original music by Elise McCoy. Show logo by Lucy Kintinia. 700 00:40:03,242 --> 00:40:06,722 Speaker 3: Our executive producer is Jason English. You'd like to email 701 00:40:06,762 --> 00:40:09,242 Speaker 3: this show, you can reach us at Very Special Episodes 702 00:40:09,322 --> 00:40:12,242 Speaker 3: at gmail dot com. To get more Ben Bollen in 703 00:40:12,282 --> 00:40:14,402 Speaker 3: your life, check out Stuff they Don't want you to 704 00:40:14,442 --> 00:40:18,282 Speaker 3: know or ridiculous history. Alex French's new company is called 705 00:40:18,362 --> 00:40:21,722 Speaker 3: feature Well Productions. You'll be hearing a lot from them 706 00:40:22,242 --> 00:40:24,482 Speaker 3: in the new year. We'll be back with the first 707 00:40:24,522 --> 00:40:28,202 Speaker 3: of our holiday episodes next week. Excited for that very 708 00:40:28,242 --> 00:40:31,762 Speaker 3: special episodes is a production of iHeart Podcasts.