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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick. And Rob and I are

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Speaker 2: out this week, but we are bringing you some episodes

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Speaker 2: from the vault, from the Halloween Vault, to be specific.

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Speaker 2: This was originally aired on October eighteenth, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: and it's part one of our series on the Goat.

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Speaker 1: That's right, let's jump right in.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Hey, it's still October here

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Speaker 2: on the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. And you

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Speaker 2: may have noticed that we've been talking a good bit

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Speaker 2: about farm animals this month. That was not by design,

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Speaker 2: It just sort of happened that way. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it started with discussing elf shot, which was this folk

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Speaker 2: belief about wounds inflicted often on cattle and horses by

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Speaker 2: supernatural fairy weapons. And then we talked about the cattle

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Speaker 2: mutilation panic of the nineteen seventies, and all this talk

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Speaker 2: about livestock actually brought me back to a question I've

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Speaker 2: wondered about in recent years and I'm glad we're finally

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Speaker 2: getting around to devoting some episodes to it. What is

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Speaker 2: the deal with goats and evil incarnate? Modern audiences will

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Speaker 2: probably think of a particularly awesome bit of goatish devilry

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Speaker 2: from the twenty fifteen historical horror film The Witch, directed

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Speaker 2: by Robert Eggers. I don't want to spoil too much

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Speaker 2: for those of you who still haven't seen it. If

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Speaker 2: you haven't, it's great, But let's just say the movie

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Speaker 2: overfloweth with megacreepy goat stuff, a link between goats and

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Speaker 2: demons and Satan himself. And of course this link between

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Speaker 2: goats and demons and occult magic is not original to

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Speaker 2: that film. There appears to be a long running association

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Speaker 2: between goats and beliefs about witchcraft and devil worship, not

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Speaker 2: so much in New England, where that movie is set,

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Speaker 2: but especially in continental Europe, where the goat form was

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Speaker 2: an important part of, for one thing, the imagery of Baphomet,

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Speaker 2: a figure that will definitely come back to in more

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Speaker 2: detail later in this series. But I figured that I

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Speaker 2: think Christians associated with evil because it was allegedly worshiped

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Speaker 2: by the Knights Templar and later by other occultists, I

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Speaker 2: think emphasis on allegedly with that square with your understanding, rob.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yes, yes, definitely, and we'll touch on that later then.

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Speaker 1: And then also you can when you start talking about

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Speaker 1: occultists and some of the occult usages of Baphomet and

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Speaker 1: Baha mein iconology, like that breaks down a bit as well,

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Speaker 1: because you get into like, well, what is worship and

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Speaker 1: what is the occult? And you can certainly go down

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Speaker 1: some rabbit holes there as well.

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Speaker 2: But apart from Baphamet, even the goat pops up in

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Speaker 2: all other kinds of continental witchcraft imagery. Some of the

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Speaker 2: greatest examples that come to mind for me are two

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Speaker 2: similar paintings by the Spanish romantic artist Francisco Goya. The

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Speaker 2: first one is a painting from seventeen ninety eight called

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Speaker 2: Witch's Sabbath, which depicts a coven of women gathered in

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Speaker 2: a circle around an upright he goat in the moonlight.

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Speaker 2: And the goat's horns are magnificently curled, as if curled

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Speaker 2: by the physical substance of evil, and they're decorated with

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Speaker 2: branches of oak leaf, and his four hoofs are outstretched

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Speaker 2: like the arms of a man kind of like you

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Speaker 2: might see depictions of sleepwalkers with their arms stretched out

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Speaker 2: in front of them, but also almost like a king

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Speaker 2: holding out his hand so that you can kiss his ring.

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Speaker 2: And the women worshiping the goat are offering up children

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Speaker 2: for human sacrifice, and you can see bats circling the

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Speaker 2: moon above. It is an absolutely splendid depiction of malignant

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Speaker 2: magic and terror, and I love this painting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an interesting painting because, on one hand, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is invoking the very fictional idea of witchcraft and

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Speaker 1: sacrifice that was, as we've discussed on the show before,

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Speaker 1: is very much a part of the like the campaign

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Speaker 1: against imagined witches and played a huge part in witchcraft

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Speaker 1: persecution of very real human beings. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: this particular image is a lot more chill compared to

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Speaker 1: some of the various woodcuts you see that were used

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Speaker 1: during the periods of witchcraft persecution and drumming up, you know,

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Speaker 1: fantastic ideas of satanic worship like this one. Aside from

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Speaker 1: the offering of the children, and even then the offering

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Speaker 1: of the children, it could be you're just holding the

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Speaker 1: child up to better see the great he goes otherwise,

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Speaker 1: you know, folks are just kind of hanging about and

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Speaker 1: here's the goat, and the goat looks not particularly evil

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Speaker 1: but kind of regal.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think some of that ambiguity might come

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Speaker 2: down to what this painting was intended for, because I'll

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Speaker 2: get back to that in just a second after I

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Speaker 2: mentioned there's another painting. Strangely, this one is often known

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Speaker 2: by the same title The Witch's Sabbath, but with the

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Speaker 2: subtitle The Great he Goat or El Grande Cabron. This

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Speaker 2: one was finished sometime in the early eighteen twenties, but

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Speaker 2: I think it was not actually intended for public display.

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Speaker 2: I think Koya just did this one like on a

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Speaker 2: wall in his house. But in this one, once again

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Speaker 2: you've got a congregation of witches gazing up at their

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Speaker 2: goat lord in terror and awe. But now the goat

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Speaker 2: is just a dark silhouette in the foreground with horns

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Speaker 2: and a little billy beard and his body draped in

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Speaker 2: robes like a priest. As brimming with menace as these

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Speaker 2: paintings are, I think scholars of Goya do not typically

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Speaker 2: understand these artworks as depictions of a literal belief in witchcraft,

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Speaker 2: but more kind of the exact opposite, as satirical works

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Speaker 2: about superstition, human brutality, and about religious persecution. Because Goya

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Speaker 2: was apparently a devotee of the Enlightenment, and I've seen

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Speaker 2: his occult paintings described as a sort of mockery of

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Speaker 2: the witchcraft trial mentality and of the Spanish Inquisition and

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Speaker 2: the darker side of human nature in general. Because Rob,

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Speaker 2: as you just reminded us, of course, a belief in

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Speaker 2: witchcraft and occult magic did lead to terror, oppression, brutality,

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Speaker 2: and human sacrifice, but not so much at the hands

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Speaker 2: of witches, almost exclusively at the hands of people who

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Speaker 2: thought they were opposing witchcraft and heresy rather than practicing it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and perhaps reaching for some faint evidence of

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Speaker 1: the divine themselves. Yeah. This reminds me of another piece

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Speaker 1: by Goya that I actually they talked about in a

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Speaker 1: Monster Fact episode at some point in the last year

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Speaker 1: or so, a seventeen ninety nine piece titled the translation

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Speaker 1: is here comes the Boogeyman or Koko, and it has

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Speaker 1: a robed figure and children. There are these two children

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Speaker 1: held by a mother, and the children are screaming in

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Speaker 1: terror and trying to look away from it, and the

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Speaker 1: mother's gazing up at the Boogeyman almost with admiration. And

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Speaker 1: it's a lovely image that touches on some of these

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Speaker 1: elements you're talking about, because the backstory for this image

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Speaker 1: is not the Boogeyman is real, or it is more like,

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Speaker 1: look at what parents have done by engaging in this

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Speaker 1: kind of supernatural nonsense, this kind of supernatural terror to

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Speaker 1: control their children. Look at the world there helping to

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Speaker 1: make through this sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: And yet I think it's funny that despite the clearly

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Speaker 2: ironic intention of these paintings, Goya was a master at

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Speaker 2: creating deliciously frightening monsters and including these these great he goats,

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Speaker 2: including the Elgrand Cabron. So the question for the series

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Speaker 2: of episodes is why what is the deal with this

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Speaker 2: cultural association primarily stemming from Christian continental Europe, between goats

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Speaker 2: and devils or goats and wickedness? And does the thematic

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Speaker 2: harmony of goat and evil at all relate to the

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Speaker 2: biological features of the goat as an organism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, because really, if your main

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Speaker 1: relationship with goats is via like goat satanic imagery and

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Speaker 1: baphomets and you know, you know, heavy metal iconography and

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Speaker 1: so forth. You might say, oh, yeah, yeah, goats are scary.

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Speaker 1: But if you've been around goats, either goat farms or

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Speaker 1: various petting zoos, you know it did zoos where children

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Speaker 1: are encouraged to meet the goats and the sheep and

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Speaker 1: to pet them and groom them, you'll quickly realize that

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Speaker 1: in real life goats aren't really scary at all. Like,

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Speaker 1: generally speaking, the scariest thing about a goat is, well,

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Speaker 1: I might step in poop, or if they're a little

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Speaker 1: revved up, one might button me a little bit, or

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Speaker 1: might nibble like if I have a map hanging out

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Speaker 1: of my pocket or something. They might try and eat

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Speaker 1: something they're not supposed to do. But for the most part, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the goat is more comical and weird and at least

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Speaker 1: to my eyes, as opposed to anything that is nefarious

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Speaker 1: when you're actually experiencing them firsthand.

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Speaker 2: I actually had a face to face with some goats

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Speaker 2: just a few weeks ago at a farm that was

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Speaker 2: attached to a restaurant I went to, and the goats

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Speaker 2: were just hanging out by the side of the fence.

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Speaker 2: So I went and communed with them a little bit,

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Speaker 2: and I walked away from that thinking, yeah, goats are

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Speaker 2: kind of cool. They just seemed like chill like, kind friendly,

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Speaker 2: maybe more more of a sense of awareness from the

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Speaker 2: goats than I've gotten when I've been around like cows,

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Speaker 2: So there's a kind of curiosity or implied intelligence, but

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Speaker 2: also that they were just cool. It's like they wanted

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Speaker 2: to hang out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they have a lot of personality I've found. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you also find some that are totally zoned out in

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Speaker 1: petting Zero's I've been touched and combed and brushed by

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Speaker 1: children so much that I don't even register it anymore,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But a lot of times, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they have a lot of love of character, and the

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Speaker 1: babies are quite cute. So so yeah, in real life

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Speaker 1: I find goats to be rather harmless.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's probably good to put some very

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Speaker 2: basic goat biology up front, and then maybe we can

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Speaker 2: come back to more specific goat science questions after we

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Speaker 2: explore more of the goat lore.

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Speaker 1: So the goat for starters here, the goat is one

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Speaker 1: of humanity's oldest domesticated animals. Tracing back at least to

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Speaker 1: the fifth millennium BCE, perhaps to the region of Turkestan.

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Speaker 1: Goats have spread around the globe with their humans since then,

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Speaker 1: thriving everywhere except Antarctica. We domesticated the goat. We take

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Speaker 1: the goat with us, and the goat tends to do

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Speaker 1: really well in various environments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the goat is kind of rough and ready, the

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Speaker 2: goat is hardy. So the scientific name of the domestic

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Speaker 2: goat species is Capra Hercus hircus, with the genus Capra

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Speaker 2: belonging to the bovid subfamily Caproni, also known as the

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Speaker 2: goat antelopes. So the taxonomy from top down goes like this.

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Speaker 2: You got the bovids, and the bovids are all cloven,

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Speaker 2: hoofed ruminant mammals. This includes antelopes, cows, bison, buffalo, things

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Speaker 2: like that. And then the bovid subfamily Caprini includes an

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Speaker 2: assortment of genera such as muskox and sheep, various kinds

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Speaker 2: of four legged mountain critters that you would probably look

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Speaker 2: at and say that's some type of goat. And then

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Speaker 2: of course the genus Capra, which contains the true goats,

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Speaker 2: with Capra Hercus the domestic goat. There are hundreds of

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Speaker 2: breeds selected for different traits, but broadly, most domestic goats

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Speaker 2: are raised for one of three things, either milk or meat,

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Speaker 2: or skins and fiber for the coat. So when it

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Speaker 2: comes to fiber, you can think about cashmere. Cashmere wool

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Speaker 2: that comes from goat breeds such as the Kashmere goat,

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Speaker 2: and mohair as in electric boots and mohair suits, is

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Speaker 2: made from the wool of the angora goat. Confusingly, the

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Speaker 2: wool known as angora does not come from the angora goat,

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Speaker 2: but from rabbits.

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Speaker 1: Goat milk, especially when made into goat cheese, can be

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Speaker 1: quite amazing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it tends to have a friskier flavor than cow milk.

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Speaker 2: You get more that grass tanng in there, I think.

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Speaker 2: But so okay. Humans have been hurting domestic goats for

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Speaker 2: thousands of years, probably going back ten thousand years or so,

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Speaker 2: longer than most other domestic animal species. So how did

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Speaker 2: that happen? Well, domestic goats are mostly from an original

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Speaker 2: wild species known as the beezor goat or capra igagras,

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Speaker 2: though there are a few breeds that are descended from

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Speaker 2: another wild species known as the markre or Capra falconeri.

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Speaker 2: The markre is awesome, by the way, and worth returning

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Speaker 2: to later. But I was reading one highly cited paper

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Speaker 2: investigating the evolutionary history of the goat how we got

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Speaker 2: from these wild ancestors to the domestic goat, And this

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Speaker 2: was a paper by Sayed naderi at All published in

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Speaker 2: Proceedings in the National Academy of Sciences in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight, called the goat domestication process inferred from large

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Speaker 2: scale mitochondrial DNA analysis of wild and domestic individuals. So

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Speaker 2: as we know, one of the most important turning points

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Speaker 2: in the history of the human species, probably the single

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Speaker 2: most important, was the emergence of farming, which includes both

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Speaker 2: plant agriculture and domestication of livestock, and goats were one

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Speaker 2: of these early domestics. Hated farm animals, likely through a

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Speaker 2: process where the wild ancestor of the goat was a

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Speaker 2: prey species tracked and hunted by humans, and then at

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Speaker 2: some point that hunting relationship transitioned into a herding relationship, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, fascinating to try to imagine the step

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Speaker 2: by step process of how exactly that happens. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: these wild goats, the ancestors of domestic goats, were typically

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Speaker 2: a mountain dwelling species that lived in relatively harsh and

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Speaker 2: rocky environments and in the woods rather than in just flat,

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Speaker 2: fertile plains full of delicious grass. And this raises an

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Speaker 2: important distinction for goat biology, which is the grazing versus

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Speaker 2: browsing distinction. So you can think of ruminant mammals like

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Speaker 2: sheep and cattle as grazers. They usually prefer to eat

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Speaker 2: low lying vegetations such as grass, whereas goats typically prefer

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Speaker 2: to browse. So goats don't just put their heads down

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Speaker 2: eat nice grass. They browse on trees and shrubs, so

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Speaker 2: they prefer to keep their heads raised up instead of

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Speaker 2: down to the earth, and they'll pick it leaves and

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Speaker 2: fruits and buds and twigs from higher up food sources.

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Speaker 1: Though at the same time, you have a particular environment

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Speaker 1: invites them to graze more or to to to eat

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Speaker 1: more from lower down, they will do that too. They're

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Speaker 1: very versatile and that's one of the reasons they've been

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Speaker 1: so successful.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they will definitely eat whatever they can get.

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Speaker 2: It's but I think the distinction is that you're not

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Speaker 2: gonna typically find like cows and sheep trying to browse

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Speaker 2: up on variegated, higher, higher up food sources, and goats

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Speaker 2: absolutely will. That's part of their natural repertoire.

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Speaker 1: Right, and it's also always amusing, you know, given their

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Speaker 1: their their mountainous ancestry that anywhere you find goats, you'll

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Speaker 1: often find them a top whatever they can get a

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Speaker 1: top off, be it a rock or a shed, occasionally

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Speaker 1: the roof of a building, whatever they have access to.

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Speaker 1: Its goats like to get a little height so they

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Speaker 1: can see what's going on around them exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you often see the goats up on top of

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Speaker 2: the chicken coop there go. But anyway, in the study

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Speaker 2: I mentioned by comparing DNA from modern domestic goats with

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Speaker 2: the modern relatives of their wild ancestors, this study zeroed

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Speaker 2: in on the idea that the earliest version of this

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Speaker 2: herding and domestication relationship and the emergence of the domestic

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Speaker 2: goat probably took place in eastern Anatolia and possibly the

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Speaker 2: northern and central Zagros Mountains, which are a mountain range

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Speaker 2: extending from eastern Turkey down through Iraq and Iran. And

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Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that some of the traits still

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Speaker 2: visible in domestic goats today can be traced to this

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Speaker 2: evolutionary history. Talking about especially if you think about you know,

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Speaker 2: goat bodies, goat brains, and goat behavior as adapted to

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Speaker 2: more difficult environments like woods and mountains as opposed to

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Speaker 2: plains full of green grass. And you can see this

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Speaker 2: represented in some misconceptions about goats that contain a grain

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Speaker 2: of truth. For example, if you watch old cartoons and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and you see a goat in the old cartoon, what's

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Speaker 2: it going to do. It's gonna eat a tin can, right, right,

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Speaker 2: No problem, goats just eat tin cans. Well, that's not true.

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Speaker 2: Obviously this is not real, and you should not feed

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Speaker 2: metal or any other kind of potentially dangerous garbage to

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Speaker 2: a goat. But there is a grain of truth there.

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Speaker 2: It is reflective of the fact that humans have long

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Speaker 2: noticed goat feeding behavior is more curious and adventurous and

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Speaker 2: promiscuous than the typical feeding behavior of some other familiar

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Speaker 2: domestic ungulates like sheep and cows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's why many of the places you'll find

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Speaker 1: goats in the world, you'll you'll find them often living

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Speaker 1: in otherwise very urban environments in not concrete jungles, perhaps,

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Speaker 1: but places where, yeah, there's vegetation around there in between

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Speaker 1: this building and that, and the goats can get to

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Speaker 1: it in ways where you probably wouldn't have a cow

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Speaker 1: grazing there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, being natural browsers who eat leaves of plants

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Speaker 2: that would be poisonous to other animals, we eat fruits

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Speaker 2: and buds and twigs and shoots and sometimes even tree bark.

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Speaker 2: Goats will search high up in their environment for potential

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Speaker 2: food sources and will try out all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Like other ruminant mammals, goats break down their high fiber

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Speaker 2: diet with the help of a multi chamber digestive system

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Speaker 2: where the foregut actually uses bacterial fermentation to break down

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Speaker 2: the rough vegetation and extract the maximum usable energy. So

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Speaker 2: the goats in their foregut, they got a chamber in

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Speaker 2: there where they're making sauer kraut out of the leaves

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Speaker 2: and the grass and the twigs. Now we can come

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Speaker 2: back to more discussion of goat biology later, but I

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Speaker 2: was thinking, if we're looking for cultural links between goats

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Speaker 2: and the devil, it might be good to look at

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Speaker 2: the sort of mythic processing of other biological features of

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Speaker 2: the goat and see what other products those features get

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Speaker 2: baked into. So one thing that that screams for attention

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Speaker 2: to me, if you're certainly to anyone who's familiar with

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Speaker 2: Greek and Roman mythology, is going to be the creature

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Speaker 2: known as the satyr or the fawn.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and this is this is tremendously important to the

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Speaker 1: discussion of goat iconography and Western traditions and the classical

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Speaker 1: use of course, the idea of these these goat men

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Speaker 1: that are generally human from from the waist up with

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Speaker 1: some goatish features of the head and then goat like

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Speaker 1: from the waist down. And yeah, there are a number

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Speaker 1: of wonderful works of art that have depicted these beings,

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Speaker 1: and they kind of run the gamut, like sometimes a

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Speaker 1: satyr seems kind of serene, you know, playing music in

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Speaker 1: the woods or frolicking in the woods. Other times they

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Speaker 1: have a very sinister edge to them. Other times they're

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Speaker 1: just you know, being flayed alive, that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: depending on the artwork in question.

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Speaker 2: There are numerous specific myths and tales about satyrs where

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Speaker 2: in the end the sator suffers a humiliation or punishment

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Speaker 2: or defeat of some kind. They often just like that

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Speaker 2: it doesn't turn out great for them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the flaying in particular, that's the reference to

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Speaker 1: the flaying of Marsias, in which the god Apollo flays

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Speaker 1: this particular satar. And yeah, it's a grotesque sequence that

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Speaker 1: you'll often see depicted in statues and paintings. So at

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Speaker 1: any rate, yes, when we're talking about the classical Greek

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Speaker 1: goat man, we're talking about the satar. And this carries

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Speaker 1: over as well into Roman traditions of the fawn. Carol Rose,

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Speaker 1: the folklorus that I often refer to, points out that

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Speaker 1: the original satyrs were depicted as human males with goat

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Speaker 1: legs and horns that represented quote, the fruitfulness of the land.

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Speaker 1: So I guess it's one of those things where if

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Speaker 1: you have satyrs frolicking about, if your environment can support satyrs,

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Speaker 1: then everything's going all right. Clearly this is an indicator

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Speaker 1: of a very robust environment. But the form shifts over time,

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Speaker 1: as mythic bodies tend to do. And at one point

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Speaker 1: she writes, there's a type of satyr that is described

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Speaker 1: as having no nose, on its face and breathing instead

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Speaker 1: through a big hole in its chest. Later satyrs take

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Speaker 1: on the form we're more familiar with human faces, pointed ears, horns,

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Speaker 1: and the lower body of a shaggy goat the upper

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Speaker 1: body of a human male. They attend their drunken leader

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Speaker 1: s and serve the god of wine, Dionysus or Bacchus.

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Speaker 1: They live in the woods, They chase nymphs around, and

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Speaker 1: they are known for their quote aggressive drunken sexuality, lechery, rudeness,

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Speaker 1: and love of playing pranks. So you know, to humans,

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Speaker 1: there's an unpredictability about the Satar. There's possibly a danger

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Speaker 1: to the Satar. They and in this they're also the

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Speaker 1: origin of the word satire. But also in all of this,

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Speaker 1: I think they nicely sum up a lot of attitudes

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Speaker 1: towards the wild. Like, the wilderness can be fun, the

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Speaker 1: wilderness can be amusing and serene. But the wilderness can

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Speaker 1: be dangerous and it may care nothing for you at all.

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Speaker 1: It may take interest in you, the interest that you

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Speaker 1: do not want. Yeah. Now, by the medieval period, Rose

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Speaker 1: writes that they become more of a grotesque hybrid and

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Speaker 1: are often used to represent just pure debauchery and lust,

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Speaker 1: often depicted with erect fallacies to drive home this point.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time it was also said that,

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Speaker 1: and of course we've discussed this sort of thing before,

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Speaker 1: where there are accounts of the monsters and strange creatures

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Speaker 1: that live in distant lands. So it was also written that, oh,

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Speaker 1: if you go to Ethiopia, you will actually find satyrs.

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Speaker 1: They're difficult to catch, but they live there.

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Speaker 2: The travel guides of the ancient world were so bad,

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Speaker 2: zero stars. But anyway, so yeah, I was reading about

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Speaker 2: satyrs and one thing I noticed is that they were

386
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Speaker 2: being described in conflicting ways, like it seemed. Sometimes they're

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Speaker 2: described as having these goat like features and other times

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Speaker 2: I read them as having horse like features. So I

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Speaker 2: was trying to make sense of that, and I found

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Speaker 2: a good reference an Oxford University Press book called Classical Mythology,

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Speaker 2: A Guide to the mythical world the Greeks and Romans,

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Speaker 2: by a scholar named William Hanson. This was published in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and five, and according to Hanson, the overriding

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Speaker 2: feature of satyrs is that they're associated with the countryside,

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Speaker 2: of course, so you know, the wilderness as opposed to settlements,

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Speaker 2: and that they are hybrid beasts. They are exclusively male,

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Speaker 2: they tend to be hairy, they walk upright on two legs,

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Speaker 2: they've got, as you said, off an exaggeratedly large genitalia,

399
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Speaker 2: and they incorporate some type of bestial features, though early

400
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Speaker 2: on these features are the legs and tail of a

401
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Speaker 2: horse rather than a goat. That's kind of interesting. So

402
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Speaker 2: some depictions lean more on the bestial elements and others

403
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Speaker 2: make them more just kind of like ugly wild humans.

404
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Speaker 2: But what's the deal with the horse features versus goat

405
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Speaker 2: so Hanson says that satyrs were originally horsemen who again

406
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Speaker 2: had the legs and tails of horses, but over time

407
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Speaker 2: they blend together with depictions of the god Pan who

408
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: was explicitly and always a goat man. So by the

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Speaker 2: Hellenistic periods that's about the fourth century to the first

410
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Speaker 2: century BCE, after the conquest of Alexander the Great, at

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Speaker 2: this point, satyrs are being depicted pretty regularly as goat

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Speaker 2: men instead of horsemen.

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Speaker 1: This horse goat split is interesting because we'll come back

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Speaker 1: to this again regarding not only the goat horse split,

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Speaker 1: but the idea that some hybrid entities that are described

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Speaker 1: into different folk traditions. The goat aspect may shift. Other

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Speaker 1: times it may be another creature, but sometimes it leans

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Speaker 1: more goat.

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Speaker 2: And I think you can learn things about what these

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Speaker 2: animals mean in people's minds by seeing what kind of

421
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Speaker 2: animals get swapped out for what yea But anyway, so

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Speaker 2: these later pan blended goat satyrs are usually shown hanging

423
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Speaker 2: out in the countryside, playing the flute, chasing nymphs, dancing,

424
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Speaker 2: associating with Dionysus, the god of the gray harvest of

425
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Speaker 2: fruitfulness and fertility, actually the god of a lot of things,

426
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Speaker 2: of festivity and drunkenness and all kinds of stuff in

427
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Speaker 2: literary traditions. Hanson digs up interesting references to satyrs as

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Speaker 2: being quote worthless and unsuited to work. But another thing

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Speaker 2: that really caught my attention is that satyrs, since they

430
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: are exclusively male, cannot reproduce to create their own kind,

431
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: and are only said to be created by the union

432
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: of two other worldly beings, such as a god and

433
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: a nymph, or by the union of a god and

434
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: a human. And there's an interesting comparison here, I think,

435
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: to other figures that are considered demonic in some way.

436
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 2: For example, in ancient Near Eastern literature, I think of

437
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: stories from early Judaism about the creation of demonic beings

438
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: when the sons of God come down from heaven and

439
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: father children with human women. The offspring are often said

440
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: to be giants or some kind of evil beings. Want

441
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: to read more about that, you can look up the

442
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: tradition of the Nephilim or the story in the Book

443
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: of First Enoch. Now I know there's more about satyrs

444
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: we need to come back and talk about. But since

445
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 2: satyrs were originally horsemen who became goat men by merging

446
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: in tradition with depictions of the god Pan, what was

447
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: the deal with Pan? Who were these? What were these

448
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 2: Panned illustrations all about? Well, once again to reference that

449
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: Oup handbook by Hanson, Hanson writes that Pan was the

450
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 2: god of shepherds and flocks, and he makes his home

451
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: in the wilds of Arcadia. And while you'll find a

452
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: lot of satyrs with horse forms in earlier sources, it

453
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: seems like pans grounding in the goat form is rock solid.

454
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: So to read from the Homeric hymns. The Homeric hymns,

455
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: by the way, are an anonymous collection of hymns to

456
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: various Greek gods, dating back to probably the seventh century BCE,

457
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: sometime around then. This one I found is number nineteen,

458
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: and when I started reading it it was so good

459
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: I just I have to do an actual chunk of

460
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: the text. So this is a hymn too, the great

461
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: God Pan. Translated by Hugh G. Evelyn White. The first

462
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: part of the hymn goes like this, Muse tell me

463
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: about Pan, the dear son of Hermes, with his goat's

464
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 2: feet and two horns, a lover of merry noise, through

465
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: wooded glades. He wanders with dancing nymphs who footed on

466
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: some sheer cliff's edge, calling upon Pan. The shepherd god,

467
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: long haired, unkempt, He has every snowy crest and the

468
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: mountain peaks and rocky crests for his domain. Hither and

469
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: thither he goes through the close thickets, now lured by

470
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: soft streams. And now he presses on amongst towering crags

471
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: and climbs up to the highest peak that overlooks the flocks.

472
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: Often he courses through the glistening high mounts, mountains, and

473
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: often on the shouldered hills, he speeds along, slaying wild beasts,

474
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: this keen eyed god. Only at evening, as he returns

475
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: from the chase, he sounds his note, playing sweet and

476
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: low on his pipes of reed. Not even she could

477
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: excel him in melody. That bird who in flower laden spring,

478
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: pouring forth her lament utters honey voiced song amid the leaves.

479
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: At that hour, the clear voiced nymphs are with him

480
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: and move with nimble feet, singing by some spring of

481
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: dark water, while Echo wails about the mountaintop and the

482
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: God on this side or on that of the choirs,

483
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: or at times sliding into the midst plies it nimbly

484
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: with his feet on his back. He wears a spotted

485
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: lynx pelt, and he delights in high pitched songs in

486
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: a soft meadow where crocuses and sweet smelling hyacinths bloom

487
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: at random in the grass.

488
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: Oh that's beautiful. And I think one thing that instantly

489
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: hits me up about multiple passages in this is it

490
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: it almost seems like it's ruminating on the nature of

491
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: the herdsman, because the hunter, of course goes out into

492
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: the wild and acts as a predator essentially. And then

493
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,719
Speaker 1: when we have modern situations of say, highly industrialized farming

494
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: and the rearing of animals, generally not with goats but

495
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: more of cattle. There is the taking of the animal

496
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: out of the natural world, placing it in an unnatural situation,

497
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: and treating it more or less like a thing. But

498
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: with this ideal, this older vision of the herdsman, the

499
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: herdsman goes out and kind of lives like the goat,

500
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: at least for periods of time, Like he has to

501
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: go out with the goats to the places the goats

502
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: want to be. And you can imagine this sort of

503
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: merging of the two, like the herdsman and the goat

504
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: as one.

505
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: He is aunt critter. Yeah, and I like the delicate

506
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: balance in this hymn, depicting Pan on one sense as

507
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: a kind of dangerous outsider and earth rim roamer, and

508
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: on the other hand as a as a soft and

509
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: delicate and a friendly representative of the of the Dewey

510
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: Glades and the and the song of the brook.

511
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I wonder too about the detail about the

512
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: wearing of the spotted lynx pelt. You know, the wears

513
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: the pelt of the hunter that would otherwise endanger the

514
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: flock that's that's so many wonderful details in this So.

515
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: The part I read was just the first half of

516
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: the hymn. The second half of the hymn tells the

517
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: story of how Pan was born, and it says that

518
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: he's the offspring of the god Hermes, who in this

519
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: telling is a is a rustic god, a god of again,

520
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: of the countryside, and of a human woman. And the

521
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: hymn says that when Pan was born, he emerged with

522
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: a goat's feet and with two horns, and he was

523
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: noisy and loved to make mary. And then it says quote,

524
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: but when the nurse saw his uncouth face and full beard,

525
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: she was afraid and sprang up and fled and left

526
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: the child. But despite the terror he strikes in human hearts,

527
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: Pan is loved by Hermes and the gods. Hermi is

528
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: a big fan of this goat child, and he takes

529
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: him up to Mount Olympus and shows him off to

530
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: the other gods. And the other gods love him too,

531
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: especially Dionysus, and they name him Pan, which literally means all,

532
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: because he delighted all of their hearts. So a list

533
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: of things we have now learned about the god Pan

534
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: as we already established, he's a hairy wild man who

535
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: has goat feed and horns and a beard like a

536
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: billy goat, and he's the god of shepherds and flocks.

537
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: He rules over the wilderness. Pan is known as a

538
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: very lusty god, known for exaggerated and constant sexual arousal,

539
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: and in keeping with this, he has power over the

540
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: fertility of livestocks such as sheep and goats. But here's

541
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: another aspect that's really interesting for our purposes. Did you

542
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: know that our English word panic actually derives from the

543
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: Greek word panicon and the cognate there with the god

544
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: Pan's name is not a coincidence. Panicon is said in

545
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: ancient sources to mean relating to Pan. Originally, panic was

546
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: not a noun. There wasn't a panic. Panic was an

547
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: adjective describing a type of fear, often the type of

548
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: fear that suddenly comes over people with no apparent rhyme

549
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: or reason. And this seems to work on the logic that,

550
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: since Pan was the lord of the wilderness, when a

551
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: person walks alone in the woods or on the mountain

552
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: side and out of nowhere, they become infected with an

553
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: irrational anxiety and a dread. Maybe they just heard a

554
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: twigs snap where they felt a breeze and they get

555
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: that chill. It's like there's something watching me. There's something

556
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,959
Speaker 2: dangerous out here. That was pancon dema or the fright

557
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: of Pan.

558
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: That's interesting, yeah, because if we think back, you know,

559
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: for the most part, the woods, the wilderness, this is

560
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 1: the place where we would feel rational anxiety. Modern humans

561
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: get to pour their irrational anxiety into so many other

562
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: things in places. Yeah, but for in particularly for non

563
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: seafaring folk, this would be the place. This would be

564
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 1: where that fear would overcome you totally.

565
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: Now, But that is one type of panic fear. There's

566
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: another type of panic fear described in other sources that

567
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 2: seems to be more like the fear that suddenly comes

568
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 2: over soldiers on mass, draining them of courage and causing

569
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: them to flee the battlefield. And this is related to

570
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: stories that the Greek god Pan also had such a

571
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: booming voice that if he shouted over the battlefield it

572
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: would cause his enemies to freeze in terror and give

573
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: way to a route. But anyway, putting all this together,

574
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting how well Pan, the god

575
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: Pan and the satyrs and fawns that were later stamped

576
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: in his image match elements of the demons that would

577
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: preoccupy some in the Christian world. So you've got a

578
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: goat human hybrid with hair and horns, who is the

579
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: unholy offspring of the union of God and human, who's

580
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 2: got an association with sinful activity, with lust or lasciviousness,

581
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: and who strikes panic into the hearts of fragile mortals

582
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: like us.

583
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, this seemed to be a direct line there.

584
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 2: But the interesting stuff about satyrs doesn't stop there.

585
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, one thing about these these depictions of satyrs,

586
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: it sounds like, you know, so many of these stories

587
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: are again it's like encountering something something in the wilderness.

588
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: It might be of danger to you, it might be

589
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 1: of mild interest. And then we also have this mention

590
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 1: of this like the pan origin story of a child

591
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 1: born as satyr being found frightful and perhaps ominous, even

592
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: if it does seem to be something that delights the gods.

593
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: So I was rather amused when and interested when I

594
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: read this passage from Jorge Luis Borges' book on Fabulous Creatures,

595
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: which is totally worth picking up if you have a chance,

596
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: but he shares this bit concerning the Roman general Slah,

597
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: who lived one thirty eight through seventy eight BC. Quote.

598
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: Legend has it that one of these minor deities was

599
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: captured in a cave in Thessaly by the men of

600
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: one of Sullah's legions and taken to the general. It

601
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: made inarticulate sounds and was so repulsive that Sullah immediately

602
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: ordered it be returned to its mountain layer. And that

603
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: is from the Book of Imaginary Beings. So, oh, that's

604
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: just so fascinating the idea here. Selah's troops are out,

605
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: they find a sadar or something like a sator, and

606
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: they're like, well, we got to bring this. We've got

607
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: to pass this up the chain. Let's bring this to

608
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: the commander. And he brings it to him and he's like, oh, this,

609
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: this is horrifying, Please take it away. Or at least

610
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: that sounds like what occurs in my reading of this

611
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: one passage from the Book of Imaginary Beings Ah. But

612
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: it gets more fascinating than that. I was reading into

613
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: this a bit more so. First of all, if forreyone,

614
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: I'm unaware, Solo was a powerful Roman general who ultimately

615
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: revived the Roman dictatorship. And I found a fabulous discussion

616
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: of this in A Satyr for Midas by Jean Sorebella

617
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: from two thousand and seven. And apparently this particular incident

618
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: involving Sola comes from the writings of Plutarch regarding an

619
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: incident said to have occurred near Apollonia in Greece. Quote

620
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: here they say a satyar was caught asleep such an

621
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: one as sculptors and painters represent, and brought to Sullah,

622
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: where he was asked through many interpreters who he was,

623
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: and when at last he uttered nothing intelligible but with

624
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: difficulty a hoarse cry that was something between the nahing

625
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: of a horse and the bleeding of a goat, Solah

626
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: was horrified and ordered him out of his sight.

627
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 2: Interesting that the nature of the cry could be read

628
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: as either a horseman or a goat man, given that

629
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 2: these are the two different traditions of the satyr.

630
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, Sorebella writes that the tale in question here

631
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: inserts mythic happenings into a straightforward biography, and this may

632
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: stem from Solah's own memoirs, where it was known that

633
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: he put an emphasis on dreams and portents. It may

634
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 1: also refer to traditions of King Midas and the finding

635
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: of a goat man here is apparently meant to be

636
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: a portent of victory, as Sullah returns to Italy, defeating

637
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: his enemies ultimately and becoming dictator of Rome. The finding

638
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: of a sleeping satyar and even holding it temporarily, was

639
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: apparently seen as a good portent, despite the depictions of

640
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: horror here upon finding one, and despite the fact that

641
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: one of the most famous stories of finding a satyr,

642
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: that involving King Midas, has a dark twist to it.

643
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: So I found that fascinating. It's like, here is this

644
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: strange creature we found in the wild that may be this,

645
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, half divine entity, and it's horrifying to look at.

646
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: It's horrifying to listen to. But it also is a pausitive.

647
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: It's not a dire omen it's not all well or

648
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: screwed now because look what nature turned up. It's like, no,

649
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: look at this strange marvel. It's horrifying. I think we're

650
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: gonna have a good day tomorrow.

651
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: Even though he has to order it out of his sight.

652
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, the myth of King Midas. Of course, that

653
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: kicks off with the finding of the satar Silinus, and

654
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: upon returning the creature to the god Dionysus, Midas is

655
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: rule warded with the granting of his famous wish right,

656
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: the result being that everything he touches turns to gold,

657
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: which does not work out well for him.

658
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: No, that's also a bad portent.

659
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now.

660
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: The later version of the Greek satyr with goat like

661
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 2: characteristics is often conflated with a Roman mythological creature known

662
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: as the fawn. These are regarded as basically the same

663
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: creature in most ways, and it does seem like there

664
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: is major overlap between the two. The fawns get their

665
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: name from an ancient Italian deity called Faunas, which in

666
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: turn is similar to Pan, a god of the countryside

667
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: who was half man half goat. In the Italian tradition,

668
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 2: he's associated with the wilderness and the sounds echoing through

669
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 2: the woods, where you know the voice of Fawnus, and

670
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: like Pan, he is also associated with the dionysia inside

671
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: of life, or I guess in the Roman the bacchic,

672
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: or you might also just think of it as kind

673
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: of the id in a way like the drive toward

674
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: hedonistic pleasure and merrymaking. Now understanding that a lot of

675
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: these mythological goat flavored beast men were known for representing

676
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: a kind of inhuman pleasure seeking behavior, or specifically inhuman

677
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: sex drive, it's worth asking is that actually reflective of

678
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: anything about goats as animals.

679
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a question that I had because again,

680
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: I've never raised goats, i haven't lived among goats, but

681
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: I've been around them plenty of times, and I honestly

682
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: don't remember being in the presence of goat copulation. Certainly,

683
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: there are other animals that I've seen in various places

684
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: where that have engaged in such behavior. But with the goat,

685
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, where does this come from? Is the

686
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: goat actually randier than other domesticated species? So and see,

687
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: So I was looking at a few different sources on this,

688
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: because obviously this becomes part of like we've discussed the

689
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: sator myth, the idea of pan and ultimately these ideas

690
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: of Satanic goat men and the horned one. But just

691
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: for starters, when it comes to animals that actually have

692
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: notably high reproduction or sex rates, goats generally don't make

693
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: any of those lists. Generally, the real superstars in this area,

694
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: certainly with mammals, are going to be rodents, various species

695
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: of rodents. Some are famous for like essentially rutting the

696
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: males anyway, rutting themselves to death. But of course we

697
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: have to remind ourselves that humans have been living in

698
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: close proximity to goats for a very long time and

699
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: simply get to observe more of the day to day

700
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: goat life. And then of course we tend to personify

701
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: anything animals do as well.

702
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: Right, I was thinking that, I mean, you've got goat herds,

703
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: not rat herds, so you don't you know, people are

704
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 2: probably watching the goats more than they're watching the rats.

705
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: Right, And of course we have a very long association

706
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: with the rats and mice, but they stick to the

707
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: shadows the goats do not. The goats have a privileged

708
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: status within our environment. So I decided to look into

709
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: goat reproduction more. And so this led me to a

710
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 1: few different ag science materials, including one very helpful article

711
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: from the University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff by livestock

712
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: specialist David Fernandez. And there's actually quite a bit of

713
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: variety in the reproductive cycles of goats. Again, they've been

714
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: domestigated a very long time. You have different lineages of goats,

715
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: different varieties of goats, and many of them are doing

716
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: their breeding indefinite seasons such as fall, while others are

717
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: going to be active sexually active year round. Latitude, Fernandez says,

718
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: plays a key role in seasonality. But I think this

719
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: bit from Fernandez does give us a bit more to

720
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: go on regarding the randy nature of the he goat,

721
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: especially in Greek and Roman tradition. Quote. Copulation in goats

722
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: usually lasts less than two minutes, but they will often

723
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: mate several times while the dough is an estrus. Bucks

724
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: must be carefully monitored during the breeding season, especially young bucks,

725
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: because they spend so much of their time mating that

726
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: they fail to eat. Bucks can lose up to twenty

727
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: five pounds over the course of the breeding season.

728
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, this is starting to make sense.

729
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think we can well imagine how and

730
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: why the randy image of the he goat might stick

731
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 1: in people's minds. And they also have a vested interest

732
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: in it all right, because you want your goats reproducing,

733
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: and you are also invested in the health of your

734
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: he goats. So I noticed some other animal science papers

735
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: also referring to goats as a quote unquote promiscuous species

736
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: in which male goats are trying to mate with as

737
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: many females as possible. So again, take all of that,

738
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: combining with the fact that people are living in close

739
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: proximity to goats. They're seeing this, you know, generally like

740
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: day to day if you were out there as a shepherd,

741
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: I mean, as your job to keep track of what

742
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 1: the goats are doing. And then again we cannot help

743
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: but personify the goat. We can't help but do this

744
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: with any kind of species, especially when we look at

745
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: their reproduction, you know, many of which are engaging in

746
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: reproductive styles and cycles and relationships that do not translate

747
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: well or favorably into the human realm. But we can't

748
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: help but look at them as behaving is sort of

749
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: like people, and then using those animals as models for

750
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 1: different sorts of people and making often moral judgments based

751
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: on that.

752
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 2: One of the profound absurdities of the human condition is

753
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: we're just going to be making moral judgments about the

754
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 2: sex lives of goats.

755
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: I'd say another factor that might be involved in ideas

756
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: concerning satyrs and faunds. Is that goats can assume a

757
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: bipedal posture either to reach higher vegetation, to aid in climbing,

758
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: or to aid and butting other goats. This is frequently

759
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: if you've ever spent some time watching goats in there,

760
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: especially the younger goats, like bucking each other, you know,

761
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: head butting. They'll often do this thing where they'll sort

762
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: of rise up on their rear legs and then kind

763
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: of use gravity to butt at something. But on top

764
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: of this, they can also balance on their back two

765
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: legs and move around, which even today makes its way

766
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,240
Speaker 1: into viral goat videos. There's one I think from somewhere

767
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: in India that I sent you, Joe, because it's just

768
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: a very short video of what appears to be just

769
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 1: a goat walking down the street briefly on its hind legs.

770
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 2: Yep, just a straight two leg walking habit like it's

771
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: a you know, evil possessed somnambulist basically.

772
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you only have to see that once. Yeah,

773
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: given any given community, only one person would have to

774
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: see that once to really sort of get the momentum going.

775
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: I think for various other ideas well.

776
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's part of that Canny Valley

777
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 2: principle that like when you see an animal that's acting

778
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 2: kind of human in a surprising way, that gets the

779
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: mind churning about evil magic and so yeah, seeing a

780
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: goat walk on two legs, you can easily imagine somebody

781
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: getting freaked out about that. But it's also interesting to

782
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 2: think about the underlying biological reasoning there. And I haven't

783
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: confirmed this is the reason, but just supposing on my part,

784
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: I think it's reasonable to assume that as browsers rather

785
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: than exclusive grazers, goats may well be adapted to get

786
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 2: back up on those two legs, not just so they

787
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: can head bud each other, but just so they can

788
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: reach higher branches. Like if they're browsing on trees and shrubs,

789
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 2: you know they want to pop up in forage from

790
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 2: something that's a little higher up. It would be useful

791
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: for them to be able to balance on back legs

792
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 2: for a moment.

793
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: Right, because a lot of tasty bites you might be

794
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: able to achieve by by climbing up with your front

795
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: legs a little bit, but sometimes you got to just

796
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: you gotta just balance you got to just go into

797
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 1: a bipedal posture and get up there.

798
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: Okay, I got an another goat biology uncanny valley thing

799
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 2: I want to explore, because this is a biological characteristic

800
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 2: of goats that I could easily see causing people to

801
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 2: look at goats in a sinister light. And it is

802
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 2: that some goats sometimes bleat in a way that sounds

803
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: remarkably similar to a human voice, moaning, wailing, or even

804
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: just screaming. This is not an observation original to me.

805
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: It is actually the subject of a number of once

806
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 2: again Internet memes and viral video compilations going back nearly

807
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: a decade.

808
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, goats do sound a little bit human sometimes,

809
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: and of course they're not the only ones. I just

810
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time around sea lions in the

811
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: Galapago Silence, which we'll come back to later. But I

812
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: have to mention these creatures briefly because especially the females

813
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 1: and the pups sound very human at times as well.

814
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: That can be distracting and even maybe a little uncanny,

815
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: where it either sounds like a human is coughing or

816
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: that they're warbling trying to speak like they just don't

817
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: know English or whatever your Spanish or whatever your native

818
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: language happens to be. But they're trying to say something,

819
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: perhaps to you. Oh.

820
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it is clearly an unsettling experience to have a

821
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: non human animal address you in tones that sound too

822
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 2: close to human. Let's hear a few of those goats screams. Now,

823
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: A big qualifier is that not all goats sound the same,

824
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 2: as one could tell just by listening to the diversity

825
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 2: of humanoid groans and yelps heard even within these goat

826
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 2: voice supercuts. Goats produce a wide range of vocalizations, and

827
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: it is only some goats some of the time that

828
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: can willhelm scream. And I tried to find a good

829
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 2: source with a zoologist explaining the similar sounds in the

830
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: cries of anguish and torment that you hear from you know,

831
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: a goat just standing there versus a human and you know,

832
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 2: in like the pivotal dramatic scene in the movie. I

833
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 2: didn't find anything super compelling. One thing I came across

834
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: was a twenty thirteen article in Slate by Forrest Wickman

835
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 2: which addressed this question by interviewing a few goat experts.

836
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: And here are some of the main takeaways there. First

837
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 2: of all, for some reason, several of the goat wizards

838
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 2: interviewed here did not seem to find this subject especially amusing.

839
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: I don't know.

840
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: Another is that some of the animals producing humanoid screams

841
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 2: in these viral videos are not actually goats. A few are,

842
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 2: you know. A few sheeps snuck in there too, so

843
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: again not exclusive to goats. So maybe we should be

844
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: saying that while some sheep and some goats and maybe

845
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 2: some sea lions too make these humanoid noises. One thing

846
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: that did seem useful to know is that goats yell

847
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 2: for a number of different reasons. So goat handlers will

848
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: tell you that sometimes they yell when they want to

849
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 2: be fed. You know, if they're lining up at the

850
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 2: fence for a meal, they might scream at their caregiver.

851
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 2: Mother goats and young goats both yell when they become separated.

852
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 2: And then there is a quote in this article from

853
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 2: doctor Jean Marie Louganbule of North Carolina State University, who

854
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: specializes in goats, and this researcher says, quote, in my

855
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: experience with goats, it does not take much for them

856
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: to scream bloody murder, as if you are torturing them

857
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 2: when simply handling them. So sometimes goats are kind of dramatic.

858
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: Now what you mentioned about mother goats and young goats

859
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: yelling when they become separated. That also reminds me of

860
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 1: sea lions a bit, in that some of the vocalizations

861
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: that occur with the females and with the young ones

862
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 1: are communicative in nature.

863
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, as yes, I can tell the primary explanation

864
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: for the similarity and the sounds would just be that

865
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: there are some coincidental structural similarities in the vocal production

866
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,240
Speaker 2: organs of humans and goats and apparently some other animals,

867
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 2: some sheep and some sea lions and stuff. However, I

868
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: did turn up one very interesting goat behavior study that

869
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 2: again does not directly answer this question, but kind of

870
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 2: grazes it. And the study is by LDF. Briefer and

871
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: Alan gmcgeliot, published in Animal Behavior in twenty twelve, called

872
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: Social Effects on vocal Ontogeny in an ungulate, the goat

873
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: Capra Hercus. Now, you might notice a stark difference in

874
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: the range of vocalizations that are available to humans compared

875
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 2: to those that are available to most other animals. Humans

876
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: have a large degree of what the authors here call

877
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: vocal plasticity, meaning quote, the ability of an individual to

878
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 2: modify its vocalizations according to its environment. So we've got

879
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: good vocal plasticity. But most animals that are capable of

880
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,959
Speaker 2: producing sounds with their voices actually produce a relatively constrained

881
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: repertoire of sounds. But there are a few exceptions found

882
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: among mammals and birds. You can probably easily think of

883
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: the birds that have a big range of vocal modulation

884
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: and control. Interestingly, some of the mammals with high vocal

885
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: plasticity include bats and whales. But one kind of unique

886
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: feature of human vocal plasticity is that it is affected

887
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: by our social environment. We modify our voices and speech

888
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: to sound like the people around us, especially the people

889
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 2: around us when we're growing up, and this, of course

890
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: is why people who speak the same language but grow

891
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: up in different regions will end up with different accents.

892
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 2: The authors argue that prior to their study, there was

893
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: no documented evidence of anything like this in other mammals,

894
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 2: But could it be the case that in other mammals,

895
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 2: especially other mammals that are highly social and highly vocal,

896
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: that they could develop something similar to different accents by

897
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 2: social grouping. Well. A good example of a non human

898
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: mammal that is both highly vocal and highly social is,

899
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: in fact, the goat, a shrieking, moaning, social herd animal.

900
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: So the authors proposed to test this out on kids,

901
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 2: meaning young goats. Could the social surroundings of goats affect

902
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 2: the sounds they make? And the answer is to some

903
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 2: extent yes. The authors found a strong genetic component to

904
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 2: voice similarity, so full sibling goats had more similar voices

905
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: than half siblings, but also half siblings that were raised

906
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: in the same social group had more similar calls to

907
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 2: each other than those that were raised in different groups.

908
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: Quote the group specific indicators in kid vocalizations show that

909
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 2: goat call ontogeny is affected by their social environment. This

910
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 2: suggests that vocal plasticity could be more widespread in mammals

911
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 2: than previously believed, showing a possible early pathway in the

912
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 2: evolution of vocal learning leading to human language. So factors

913
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: determining the sounds produced by young goats are strongly influenced

914
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 2: by genetics, but surprisingly also influenced by the social environment.

915
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,959
Speaker 2: What are their goats they're around, and so you could

916
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: view this as analogous in a way to goats developing

917
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 2: different accents based on their groups. Now, I want to

918
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: be one hundred percent clear, there is no evidence I've

919
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: read whatsoever that this vocal plasticity would extend to domestic

920
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: goats adapting their voices to sound like humans, like their

921
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: human farmers and herders. But I guess it's an interesting

922
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 2: possibility to wonder about goat experts right in Is this

923
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 2: crazy idea possible that I don't know, goats spend enough

924
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 2: time around humans, Is it possible that they could slightly

925
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 2: adapt in a human vocal direction or is that absurdity?

926
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 2: I don't know.

927
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: Even without getting into that though, just the mere idea

928
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: that you're in close proximity with these social mammals that

929
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: communicate to some degree through vocalizations and have different vocalizations

930
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: that they're utilizing. That's enough to sort of bridge that

931
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: uncanny gap between us and them and to allow room

932
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: for folklore to emerge between the two. I mean, it's

933
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that makes goats interesting, it's not.

934
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of the things that makes sea

935
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: lions interesting as well, Like, because you watch these animals

936
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: and they're engaging in social behaviors that are very different

937
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: from human behaviors but also not so different that we

938
00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: can't anthropomorphize them. And then they're using their voice to

939
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: some degree. So even even if ancient people especially we're

940
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: not privy to all the you know, the bullet points

941
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 1: that we've laid out in these studies here, they would

942
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 1: have picked up on the fact that that something is occurring,

943
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: that there's some sort of communicative relationship going on, and

944
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: that there is the goats are raising a goaty mirror

945
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: to our own way of life.

946
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 2: Well said, uh, I think we have to cut Goats

947
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: part one right there, So we'll we'll come back in

948
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: the next episode to talk about goats in the Hebrew

949
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 2: Bible and in Christian traditions, goats and other myths and

950
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 2: traditions from all around the world, some more fascinating goat science.

951
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: It's going to be a blast, absolutely, So join us

952
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: for the next goat episode. Uh yeah, it's gonna be

953
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. There's gonna be some more creepy

954
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: stuff in there, but also some uh some some some

955
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: of the ideas are going to be looking at are

956
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: going to be less demonic and more divine. So yeah,

957
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: there's a little something in there for everybody. In the meantime,

958
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: of course, you can find all the episodes of Stuff

959
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind in the Stuff to Blow your

960
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed We have core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

961
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 1: Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we do a

962
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: short form artifact or monster fact, and on Fridays do

963
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set

964
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: aside most serious concerns and just talk about a strange film.

965
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

966
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

967
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

968
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

969
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

970
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com.

971
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:45,640
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972
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,520
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973
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,440
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974
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: Sent west Rattatata