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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holmes, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hi, Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I am really looking for an update

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Speaker 1: on a story that I know that you've covered, oh

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Speaker 1: kind of a serial killer story, and I know that

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Speaker 1: it is one of the biggest you've ever had to

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Speaker 1: deal is very personal for you. And you're laughing because.

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Speaker 2: I think I know where you're going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going with your lunatic of a fish. What's

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Speaker 1: going on with your clownfish who seems to have absolutely

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Speaker 1: no problem knocking off everyone around him, including a lobster

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Speaker 1: who I presume is bigger than he is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, serial killer clown. Yeah, has been a

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Speaker 2: pain in my side for quite some time. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know if I mentioned this before, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I do have two clownfish in this tank.

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Speaker 1: What.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so serial killer clown has a is paired with

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Speaker 2: another clownfish, so has a little helper that kind of

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Speaker 2: just will follow the dominant one around and do whatever

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Speaker 2: the dominant one does. You know, it's really kind of

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Speaker 2: a fascinating social study. And I think the littler clown,

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Speaker 2: little clown is the compliant victim of the serial killer clown.

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Speaker 1: Well you have said that there's always in pairs, there's

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Speaker 1: always the dominant and then there's the other person. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So is there a chance that you could get the

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Speaker 1: less dominant of the two to sort of flip or

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Speaker 1: can we train him to not be the little the

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Speaker 1: little follower that he is, because this seems like it

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Speaker 1: could get out of control really quickly if there's two

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's there's an interesting biology that happens

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Speaker 2: with clownfish is that all clownfish are born male and

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Speaker 2: the dominant clownfish turns female. Oh so I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: my serial killer is a female mail clownfish. Okay, and

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Speaker 2: the little Patsy is the mail clownfish. And there's there's

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Speaker 2: no way that I can really do anything to stop

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Speaker 2: their behavior. At least that's what I thought. But I

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Speaker 2: do have an update. You know, first, lobster is good.

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Speaker 2: I added some more rock into my tank and the

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Speaker 2: lobster has found a very secure home in the back

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Speaker 2: of the tank under a very large rock, which is

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Speaker 2: good for the lobster, but not for me because I

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Speaker 2: will never see this lobster again.

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Speaker 1: She would get some confidence. I mean, can a lobster

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Speaker 1: not change? Is this just his personality?

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Speaker 2: This this is a reef lobster, and they are very shy.

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Speaker 2: They typically want to stay in very secure dark areas.

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Speaker 2: And with what I saw, you know, when the lobster

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Speaker 2: was exposed, how fast the clownfish could attack the lobster

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Speaker 2: doesn't stand a chance, even with the lobster being you know,

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Speaker 2: a little bit larger than the clownfish. But I have

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Speaker 2: added two new fish to my tank. One is a

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Speaker 2: fox face, which right now is you know, he's just

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Speaker 2: kind of neat to look at, has venomous spines, so

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Speaker 2: that's kind of an interesting quirk about this fish. But

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Speaker 2: I also added a blue hippo tang which now is

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Speaker 2: the largest fish in my tank. Now do you know

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Speaker 2: what a blue hippo tang is?

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what the fox face was. You've

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Speaker 1: lost me.

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Speaker 2: Now I'll have to post some photos, but you will

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Speaker 2: immediately recognize the blue hippo tang okay as dor.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, okay, now that was good. That was good. Yes,

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Speaker 1: cultural references.

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Speaker 2: Since I've added this larger tang fish, this blue hippo

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Speaker 2: tang or dor into the tank, the clownfish has kind

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Speaker 2: of been minding her p's and q's. And I also

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Speaker 2: added a bubble tip anemone with the hope because I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you know this, but clownfish and anemonies

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Speaker 2: will have a symbiotic relationship and you'll see it like

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Speaker 2: in the movie with Finding Nemo, where the clownfish will

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Speaker 2: go into this anemone, which is venomous. It has stingers

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Speaker 2: and its tentacles, but clownfish have a protective coating so

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Speaker 2: they can actually use the anenemy as sort of protection

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Speaker 2: against other animals that might do them harm. But so far,

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Speaker 2: my serial killer clown and her partner have not hosted

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Speaker 2: the anemone, meaning they haven't got into the anemony, which

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Speaker 2: can happen any day or can never happen, you know.

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Speaker 2: I just hope it does just to help calm the

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Speaker 2: clownfish down so they have a home, versus deciding to

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Speaker 2: go out there in this roving pack of two and

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Speaker 2: causing a disruption to all the other animals in the tank.

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Speaker 2: But right now, having this larger fish in my tank

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Speaker 2: seems to have settled the entire high tank. So I'm

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Speaker 2: very happy.

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Speaker 1: As the world turns, it's like one big soap opera.

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Speaker 1: And for the record, Paul, anytime you say I don't know,

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Speaker 1: if you know this and you're talking about fish, you

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Speaker 1: can just go ahead and this sooom, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: so you can take that question right out and save

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Speaker 1: yourself some time. I don't know anything about fish, but

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Speaker 1: I find it fascinating. And we have talked about this before.

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Speaker 1: I know it gives you a sense of peace. My

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Speaker 1: dogs do that for me too. But I could see

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Speaker 1: I had little water frogs. Did I ever tell you that?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my kids bought me these little cute water frogs.

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Speaker 1: They're black, and I could just watch them forever and

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Speaker 1: ever and ever. They would jump up and down and

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Speaker 1: slide down the tank. They always had great expressions on

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Speaker 1: their faces. They didn't last very long. I think like

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Speaker 1: a year or maybe, but it was really like almost

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Speaker 1: cathartic for me to watch them. So I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: have something like that. Every investigator needs to have, toy

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Speaker 1: pond or whatever you want.

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Speaker 2: So very good thing to zone out too.

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Speaker 1: Yes, good, I'm glad that we had a really good update.

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Speaker 1: We're switching gears here from fish to sausage. That's not

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Speaker 1: really a good transition. So weird transition, isn't it? Fish

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Speaker 1: to sausage?

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Speaker 2: Is there any sausage that's made out of fish? I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure. I don't think i've ever run across.

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Speaker 1: So if there is, please don't send it to us.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure either Paul or I would go. Would

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Speaker 1: you go for a fish sausage?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Hell no, sausage e fish? No? I don't think it

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Speaker 1: either way. So we are going to travel back in time,

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Speaker 1: which I know we do every week. This is pretty

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Speaker 1: far eighteen forty five. This is going to be in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: and I think we've done one or two Chicago's before

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Speaker 1: and this is a story that people have heard, but

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Speaker 1: you have not heard it from Paul Holes. So let

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Speaker 1: me warn you upfront. I'm going to skim through the

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Speaker 1: biography of the victim and the killer because it's really

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Speaker 1: the forensics. There's not going to be a big mystery here.

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Speaker 1: It is so would this person have been convicted in

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Speaker 1: a court of law? Should they have been? What happens

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Speaker 1: and what the heck is a forensic anthropologist doing on

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Speaker 1: the stand for the first time in the United States.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea what case you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the mystery. Let's set the scene. So the

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Speaker 1: World's Fair was nineteen hundred and people have asked me

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Speaker 1: about HH Holmes, to talk about HH Holmes, which I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you're familiar with.

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Speaker 2: I know a little bit, but I'm not well versed

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Speaker 2: on that case or him.

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Speaker 1: The serial killer who was in Chicago during the World's

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Speaker 1: Fair in the nineteen hundreds, And I don't want to

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Speaker 1: get into the details, but people do ask me that

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Speaker 1: a lot. But this is three years before, and this

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Speaker 1: is Chicago, right in the center of the city. So

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Speaker 1: the main character we have is a guy named Adolph

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Speaker 1: Luegert and he was born in eighteen forty five in Germany.

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Speaker 1: And Adolph is someone who is really an entrepreneur. He

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Speaker 1: did a lot of odd jobs and he moved to

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Speaker 1: Chicago and in eighteen seventy two he gets married. They

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Speaker 1: have a couple of kids together. She dies. He remarries

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Speaker 1: two months later to a woman named Louisa, and Louisa

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Speaker 1: is at the center of the story. She's also German.

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Speaker 1: They have four kids together, so we're talking about six

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Speaker 1: kids in this household, which wouldn't have been unusual in

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Speaker 1: this time period. Four of them die in infancy, so

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Speaker 1: we are now kind of a smaller family, and they

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Speaker 1: seem to be a good family. Adolph is someone I

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Speaker 1: have a friend who always talks about people who she's

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Speaker 1: fascinated with, who can create something out of nothing, who

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Speaker 1: build a business or start a podcast, or you know

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Speaker 1: all of this other stuff where it just appears it's

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Speaker 1: in your head and then it comes out that was Adolf.

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Speaker 1: He was an entrepreneur. He saved up a small fortune

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Speaker 1: and bought a business buying and selling liquor before prohibition,

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Speaker 1: so nothing illegal about it. He made a profit, and

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Speaker 1: then he gets into the opportunity of selling fine sausages.

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Speaker 1: He learns his trade and he builds a world class

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Speaker 1: sausage factory in Chicago, so he knows how to make money.

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Speaker 1: The sausages are a hit. This is the American dream

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Speaker 1: for an immigrant from Germany and his wife. He is

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Speaker 1: sort of touted in Chicago newspapers as this, you know,

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Speaker 1: personality who is larger than life, who you know, has

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Speaker 1: produced millions of pounds of sausage in this huge factory,

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Speaker 1: and they call him kind of the King of Chicago,

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Speaker 1: King of Sausages. And that's when he really starts feeling

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Speaker 1: the need to expand. He's got these great danes and

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Speaker 1: people are sort of falling at his feet, is the

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Speaker 1: way I read it. He becomes one of the most

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Speaker 1: prolific sausage producers in not just Chicago but in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Except he's doing something with money that is

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Speaker 1: different than what you and I are used to when

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Speaker 1: we talk about these stories. I am used to the

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Speaker 1: family man taking all of his money and spending it

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Speaker 1: on extramarital fairs or gambling or illegal things. Right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: then we'll start thinking this is a really natural victim,

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Speaker 1: somebody who is pulfering his money away from his family,

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Speaker 1: away from his business, and frittering it away. That would

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Speaker 1: be a very logical story for you and.

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Speaker 2: I well for sure, because that oftentimes is when you

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Speaker 2: have somebody that has met with foul play, you take

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Speaker 2: a look at, well, what does his finances say or

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Speaker 2: her finances say? Where is the money going? Because that

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Speaker 2: can be motive.

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Speaker 1: And as of now, we know that Adolph is an

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Speaker 1: excellent businessman, but his wife Louisa is really nervous because

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, any wife would want him to

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Speaker 1: bring home money so they could have a better life.

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Speaker 1: What he's doing is taking all of his money and

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Speaker 1: all of the savings and putting it right back into

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Speaker 1: the factory. So he's putting all of his eggs in

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Speaker 1: one basket, which is not smart on his part. You

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Speaker 1: would think, well, let's expand, let's do even bigger business.

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Speaker 1: He's making lots of money, but he's not saving any

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Speaker 1: of it, and Louisa is saying, this is a huge gamble.

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Speaker 1: What happens if people don't like your sausage anymore? What

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Speaker 1: if there's a scandal, What happens if something fails financially

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Speaker 1: and he ignores it? And starts borrowing huge sums of

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Speaker 1: money to keep this operation going. Business is going great,

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Speaker 1: but there are a couple of things that happen that

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Speaker 1: are hiccups. One's fault, one's not. That show kind of

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Speaker 1: the deterioration of him as a businessman. But he's in

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Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of debt. And now I know that

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Speaker 1: means you're alarmed. Anytime we hear about debt and murder together,

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Speaker 1: we're thinking who's the victim and who's the killer in this?

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Speaker 2: Who does he owe? Oftentimes in that situation, the person

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Speaker 2: that is owed money will issue threats or you know,

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Speaker 2: there will be prior instances of violence in order to

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Speaker 2: get the victim to pay. When that fails, because you think, well,

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Speaker 2: why would you kill somebody who owes you money? You

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Speaker 2: want that money, Well, you kill because now you can

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Speaker 2: take the money. Or you kill because you want to

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Speaker 2: send a message to other people who owe you that

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Speaker 2: if you don't pay, this will happen to you.

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Speaker 1: Well, who he owes money to is important, but the

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Speaker 1: string of events that ruins him is not connected to

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Speaker 1: who he's borrowed money from. Necessarily, Here's the first big

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Speaker 1: thing that I think people now our audience can probably

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Speaker 1: relate to. In eighteen ninety six, things are going really

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Speaker 1: well for Adolf. He thinks he's taken in all this money,

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Speaker 1: but he's in debt. But he says that my business

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Speaker 1: is doing great. I can pay it back. Except in

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Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six, the National Bank of Illinois fails, and

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Speaker 1: this prompts more banks to fail in Chicago, and it

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Speaker 1: creates bank runs, and it creates chaos. And we know

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Speaker 1: what has happened. When banks fail. It ruins businesses, It

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Speaker 1: ruins them, and it ruins Adolf's business, and he freaks out.

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Speaker 1: And in February, several banks have failed and his business

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Speaker 1: is plummeting and people want money back. He says, I've

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Speaker 1: got to sell this thing. I've got to get away

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Speaker 1: from this factory. So someone approaches him and says, I'll

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Speaker 1: buy the factory. You know, there was an exchange of

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Speaker 1: some money and Adolf gets scammed. So he gets scammed

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Speaker 1: of all of his money, and then he has no

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Speaker 1: choice but to shut down the factory, and they've lost

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Speaker 1: everything everything. By May of eighteen ninety seven, they've lost

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Speaker 1: all of their money. Because he was scammed when he

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Speaker 1: thought he was going to be able to sell his

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Speaker 1: business to a legitimate person, and he just manages to

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Speaker 1: lose the money.

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Speaker 2: So this scammer approaches Aidof wanting to buy the business.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine that there was some sort of transaction

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Speaker 2: which now aid Off is signing over the ownership of

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Speaker 2: the business to this scammer, and there wasn't money coming

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Speaker 2: back to aid Off from the scammer. Is that the

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Speaker 2: way things are right?

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's it, And now he's lost all of this money.

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Speaker 1: He had turned down other offers and he had thought,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to sell this and by the time he

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Speaker 1: found out it was a scam and he had somehow

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Speaker 1: lost some money in this transaction, it was too late

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Speaker 1: and he just had to shut down the factory. So

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Speaker 1: the factory stopped producing sausages in mid eighteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 2: He lost the business and he never got money for

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Speaker 2: the business, and so in essence, and he had been

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Speaker 2: putting all his money in the business.

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Speaker 1: So he screwed. Yeah, he has nothing. He and his

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Speaker 1: wife and I'm sure Louisa was very upset. They've lost

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff. On May first of eighteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: this is just a few months after the bank failure,

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Speaker 1: the scamming. On May first of eighteen ninety seven, Louisa

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Speaker 1: goes missing. So now we know who the victim is.

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Speaker 2: So Luisa is Aidof's.

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Speaker 1: Wife, correct, the second wife, second wife got it, and

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Speaker 1: the mother of several of his children. So she goes missing.

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Speaker 1: It is not Adolf who reports are missing, it's her brother,

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Speaker 1: and she is not reported missing for a week, so

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Speaker 1: the brother doesn't even get you know, any wind on

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Speaker 1: whether or not she is missing for a week. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: So police want to know about Aidolf and about their marriage,

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Speaker 1: their relationship. At this point, the police when they question him,

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Speaker 1: they know that their banks have failed, that his business

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Speaker 1: has been shuttered, that they don't have any money, and

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Speaker 1: then they start asking more questions, which I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: quite frankly, sounds like a motive enough for murder to

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Speaker 1: begin with. But they ask more questions about the marriage.

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Speaker 1: They had had a lot of financial problems, but the

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Speaker 1: bigger problems was just interpersonal between the two. Adolf sounds

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Speaker 1: like a jerk. He was allegedly physically abusive towards Luisa.

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Speaker 1: He was a philanderer, serial cheater, He had many mistresses

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Speaker 1: and cuting Louisa's own cousin who was their housemaid at

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Speaker 1: the time, And apparently the marriage was so toxic that

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Speaker 1: they aren't around each other the majority of the time.

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Speaker 1: They'll have meals together and that's it. And Adolph really

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Speaker 1: slept at the office at his factory with his great Danes,

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Speaker 1: you know, rather than stay at home with Louisa. So

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Speaker 1: you've got all of this financial turmoil and destruction happening

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Speaker 1: to their money, and then you've got, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, a bad marriage. It sounds like before

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Speaker 1: all of this went downhill with his finances.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Luisa goes missing and husband fails to report

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Speaker 2: her missing, and yeah, the first question I have is

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Speaker 2: was there any life insurance policy on Luisa that Adolf

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Speaker 2: was a beneficiary of.

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Speaker 1: I don't see anything about a life insurance policy.

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Speaker 2: No life insurance policy, of course, because of the financial

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Speaker 2: straits that Aidolf is finding himself in at the moment

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Speaker 2: that Luisa goes missing. Of course, I'm looking at is

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Speaker 2: there a financial motive in which Adolf can benefit due

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Speaker 2: to Luisa's going missing and an ultimate I'm assuming homicide.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: If there isn't that financial aspect, then is this the

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Speaker 2: elimination of a wife that he is in a relationship with,

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Speaker 2: and he's not happy with that circumstance.

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Speaker 1: Here's what irritates the police and confuses them is Adolph

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Speaker 1: does not report Louisa missing, which is odd to them

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Speaker 1: because when one of his great danes ran away earlier

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Speaker 1: this year, he rushed over to his neighborhood precinct and said,

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Speaker 1: I need help with this dog. And now he doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to give a flip about where his wife is,

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Speaker 1: and the police immediately say, something's really weird here.

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Speaker 2: No, it's a huge red flag.

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Speaker 1: Now Adolf has an answer, and it sounds very plausible

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Speaker 1: to me. He says that Louisa said next to this,

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Speaker 1: you loser of a businessman. You lost all of our money.

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Speaker 1: I told you this was going to happen. I'm out

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Speaker 1: of here. And he says she left and abandoned them.

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Speaker 1: She would not be the first woman to do that.

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Speaker 1: And frankly, you know, she didn't take the kids. But

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Speaker 1: if she had taken the kids with her, I would

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Speaker 1: have said, I don't blame her. But she did leave

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Speaker 1: the children behind, So you know, he has mixed stories.

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Speaker 1: The police also think that this is weird. Sometimes he

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Speaker 1: thinks that she's just abandoned the family on her own.

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Speaker 1: Other times he thinks she ran off with another man,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes she He says, I'm sure she's in Germany.

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Speaker 1: She probably went back home, and there's no way to

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Speaker 1: prove it because eighteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 2: Right, But how many times have we seen even current day,

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Speaker 2: in which wife goes missing and the husband comes up

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Speaker 2: with this excuse, she just packed up and left me.

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Speaker 2: Part of the investigation of these set of circumstances does involve, well,

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Speaker 2: what was the mother's relationship with her children, Because if

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Speaker 2: she was close with her children and she leaves them

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Speaker 2: behind to somebody she doesn't like, who is demonstrated to

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Speaker 2: be abusive, at least to her, that doesn't tally with

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Speaker 2: her just abandoning her kids to pursue maybe a better

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Speaker 2: life for herself. It does happen, but it's something that

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Speaker 2: I would be looking at, going, Okay, I'm a little

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Speaker 2: bit not convinced about the husband's story about why Luisa left.

359
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Speaker 2: If she's leaving the kids behind, if she was really

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Speaker 2: truly close to her kids, I.

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Speaker 1: Agree, and we say that all the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've read stories where you know, the police will interview

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Speaker 1: the family and they'll say she'll disappear and we won't

364
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Speaker 1: hear from her, and then she pops back up and

365
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Speaker 1: it's weird that we don't hear from her, but she

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Speaker 1: has disappeared even though she adores her kids. Mental health issues, addiction,

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Speaker 1: all of these different things. So yeah, I mean, right

368
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Speaker 1: now we don't know enough about exactly how upset And

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Speaker 1: also Paul, if she is being abused, she might have

370
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Speaker 1: just said I have to go. He is so miserable,

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Speaker 1: he's going to kill me, and the kids will probably

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Speaker 1: end up with his mother or my mother or something.

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Speaker 1: Something will be okay with the kids. But there's that

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Speaker 1: self preservation there.

375
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Speaker 2: No for sure, and this is where it's it's not

376
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Speaker 2: black and white.

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Speaker 1: I agree, it seems like he killed her. We don't

378
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Speaker 1: know yet, but what happened to her body, And as

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Speaker 1: we know, you know, you don't want to convict someone,

380
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Speaker 1: and certainly if this would be a capital case, if

381
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Speaker 1: there's no body and someone comes walking through the door,

382
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Speaker 1: We've had a lot of those cases where people just

383
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Speaker 1: disappear and never come back up. So the police search

384
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Speaker 1: for Louisa, they do not find her. I think they

385
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Speaker 1: contact her family in Germany. She's not there. They come

386
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Speaker 1: up empty until they get to the sausage factory.

387
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Speaker 2: I was just going to go there, yeah, to.

388
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Speaker 1: Freak out, because I don't think I could do this story, honestly.

389
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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm pretty squeamish about stuff like this. I'm

390
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: also vegetarians that would if that were the case. I'm

391
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: not sure I could go down the story. But there's

392
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Speaker 1: some pretty weird things happening with this story. Okay, So

393
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Speaker 1: police search the building and they find a thick, foul smelling,

394
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: reddish scum on the floor near one of the basement vats.

395
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: And these are vats where the sausage is cured when

396
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 1: the factory is in production. But it's not in production.

397
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 1: They shouldn't be making anything at this factory because it's

398
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: been shuttered. Additionally, there is this slimy, viscous substance that

399
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: does not seem to be anything that investigators expected to find,

400
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 1: even at a meat packing facility. So don't get too

401
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 1: graphic on me because I am squeamish, but thick, foul smelling,

402
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: reddish scum. Knowing what you know about bodies, and knowing

403
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: that probably Luisa is in this factory in some capacity,

404
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: what would that be forensically?

405
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: You know, right now, obviously there isn't a body, but

406
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 2: it appears I'm going to assume that this is something

407
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 2: from Luisa's body, and if it's not, you know, when

408
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 2: you have a body that decomposes and lays in a

409
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,719
Speaker 2: location for a period of time, of course there are

410
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 2: fluids that will kind of end up being around the

411
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: body unless it's you know, super dry and hot for

412
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 2: mummification to occur. But it's almost sounding like considering this

413
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: is a factory setting, and if this is not a

414
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: situation in which I'm going to try to be tackful,

415
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: the body is going through the manufacturing process of the

416
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: sausage making. Then I start to wonder has a chemical

417
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 2: been applied, such as a lie an alkaline substance, or

418
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 2: even an acidic substance, and now you're dealing with some

419
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 2: of the residues after this attempt to dispose of the body.

420
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: I think that's an excellent guess. Because a night time

421
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 1: guard comes forward. He says the night Louisa went missing,

422
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: Adolph came to him, the guard, and asked him to

423
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,719
Speaker 1: bring two barrels of Pottish down to the basement and

424
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 1: load them into one of the factory's fats. Have you

425
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: ever heard of pottish before? I have, as have I.

426
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: It was in one of my stories, and I'll tell

427
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: you about that in a minute.

428
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 2: I believe it is an alkaline substance, and I'm just

429
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: double checking that now. Yes, potassium, yes, so it has well,

430
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: potassium is a primary element, but it was used as

431
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: a fertilizer to decrease the acidity of soils. That means

432
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: it has a basic And when I say basic, it's

433
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: a base as in pH and so this is where

434
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: it's alkaline. And alkaline strong alkaline substances such as like

435
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 2: sodium hydroxide, are very good at degrading human tissue, notably

436
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: the fats and stuff. And so it often when you

437
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: hear about people trying to use chemicals to dispose of

438
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: a body, they often use these alcal aligned substances to

439
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: put the body in avat and let the body sit there,

440
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 2: and then the tissues end up dissolving in this alkaline environment.

441
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 2: And so this sounds exactly like what I predicted.

442
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: You're such a smarty in my book called it as

443
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: Wicked about Edward Ruloff Edward murders his wife and child,

444
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: and he ultimately ended up dumping them into Cayuga Lake

445
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: in upstate New York. But his initial thought, because he

446
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: was an herbal expert, his initial thought was to buy

447
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: pottish and try to dissolve their bodies. He said he

448
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: didn't do it because he wasn't comfortable enough with the

449
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: chemistry of it. And we talked about this a lot.

450
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: These are the kinds of the just like poison. These

451
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 1: are the kinds of things you have to know what

452
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: you're doing to be able to use them, how much

453
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: and too much and all of that. And he just

454
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: chickened out and said, I don't think I can do this.

455
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: I can't guarantee this is going to work. So this

456
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: scene to be what was left over is this red

457
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 1: nasty stuff. At least from what they found on the floor.

458
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: They're not done searching yet.

459
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, very rarely, even though this could potentially

460
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: be a very strong chemical and have a tremendous impact

461
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: on Luisa's body, it doesn't completely get rid of the body.

462
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 2: You know, there are tissues, there's bone structures that will remain,

463
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 2: and so there's going to have to be further disposal

464
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: attempts and clean up attempts after the application of this

465
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 2: alkaline substance.

466
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: So another suspicious thing is that the guard was asked

467
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: by Adolph to go pick up a medicine for him

468
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: from a local drug store. He didn't know what the

469
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: medicine was, but it was late at night. He was

470
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: staying at the factory. He had already asked him for

471
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 1: this pottish and so the security guard went out and

472
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: got it for him and brought it back and that

473
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: was the end of it. This was the only person

474
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: on duty on me first. So Adolf, it seems like,

475
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: was alone in the factory the night that his wife

476
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: went missing. The guard did not see the wife, Louisa,

477
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: but Adolf had access to the factory by himself, which

478
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: was unusual because there was always somebody there, somebody on

479
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 1: duty to protect everything. Adolf was very particular about all

480
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: of this equipment. So investigators searched the factory and they

481
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: really look around everywhere. The initial one was a cursory search,

482
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: and this was much more in depth. Ugh, this is gross.

483
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: I hate all this stuff, but I know it's necessary.

484
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: So I have a sketch of the vat that we're

485
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: about to talk about, but it's a sketch. I know,

486
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: that's not what you want to hear. But they drain

487
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: the vat that's closest to this red mystery scum, which

488
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: I'm assuming they think leaked out of this vat to

489
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: find out what happened, and they look and it appears

490
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: to have bone fragments in the vat, and between the

491
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: vats and the drains in the nearby ashpile, police find

492
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: small pieces of aside from the bone fragments, a metal

493
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: corset that a woman would wear, a hairpin, scraps of clothing,

494
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: a fake tooth, as well as two rings, and one

495
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: had the initials l L, which were Louisa's initials. This

496
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: is all really good circumstantial evidence, I'm assuming at this point,

497
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: especially the bone fragments.

498
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, yeah, of course, I'm kind of curious

499
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: to know what bone fragments they had. You have the

500
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: fake tooths, which potentially could be tied back to Luisa.

501
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 2: You know, these bone fragments, it's almost sounding like, you know,

502
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: after a period of time with the body in this potash,

503
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: that there may have been a mechanical force applied to

504
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: the remaining skeletal structure to break it up, to try to,

505
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: you know, get more of that bony substance to dissolve,

506
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: and was in the process of getting rid of all

507
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: that bone when the cops drained the and there it

508
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: is now. Ideally you would still have significant skeletal remains

509
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: in which an anthropologist would be able to utilize and

510
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: be able to identify, you know, physical features. And ideally,

511
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: even if let's say back in the late eighteen hundreds,

512
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: you know something along the lines of well we knew Luisa,

513
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: let's say she broke her leg at one point in life.

514
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: You know, if that bone remains, does it show evidence

515
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: of that fracture. So by looking at these various physical

516
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: characteristics on what remains, you increase your confidence, Yes, this

517
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: is Luisa's body. You know, in the day before you

518
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: could use DNA in order to say for sure this

519
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: is Luisa, right.

520
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: And the problem is is these really are indeed fragments.

521
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: And as we get into this trial, because there will

522
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: be a trial, because the police will very soon arrest

523
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: Adolf for the murder of his wife, whose body is

524
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: technically missing, we will have competing experts, which is where

525
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: the forensic anthropologist comes in on the origin of these

526
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: bone fragments. But for right now, you know, the police

527
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: are really searching for more evidence. They are now finding

528
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: all of this stuff and saying, okay, well this has

529
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: to be Louisa. But they also learned that Adolph had

530
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: recently purchased large amounts of the pottish which we talked about,

531
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: but also of arsenic. They think that he poisoned her

532
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: and then tried to dissolve her body. The problem with

533
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: both of those things is the pottish could have been

534
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: used in his business and everybody had arsenic. I mean,

535
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: I know, not large amounts, but in I just interviewed

536
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: somebody who talked about the huge amount of rats. Particularly.

537
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: Can you imagine in a sausage factory what that must

538
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: have been like? Large amounts of arsenic wouldn't have surprised

539
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: me one bit. It's dangerous in a sausage factory, but

540
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: with all of the vermin, the animals and just everything

541
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: that have been probably the first line of defense in

542
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: this time period to kill anything that was in the

543
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: sausage factory.

544
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe the rats were his secret ingredient to a sausage.

545
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: Uh, Paul, you can't do that, So I think what

546
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: we're doing is looking for things that a good defense

547
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: attorney would and did explain away that these are things

548
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: that he would have used. And we'll talk about the

549
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: bones in a minute. Regardless, the police say this guy

550
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: needs to be arrested, and they do it on May seventeenth,

551
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: and he's charged with her murder. The trial begins August

552
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: twenty third, about three months later. It is, as you

553
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: can imagine, a huge media circus. I mean, you gotta

554
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 1: love nineteenth century newspapers. This is the sausage king, and

555
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: his wife is dead in a factory, and there's stuff

556
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: in the vats, and I wouldn't eat that sausage because

557
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: the rumor, of course, is that he turned her into sausage.

558
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: There's no evidence that happened, but there's a historian named

559
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: Robert Lorzel who says that for the next couple of years,

560
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: Chicago Butcher's had a pretty hard time moving their sausage sales.

561
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't need it either, I mean, you know, because

562
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: that really was a rumor that she was made into sausage.

563
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: And the police said, believe me, we would have had

564
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: that injured at trial, and we just don't have any

565
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: evidence of that. But I guess that would have been

566
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: a good way to dispose of a body. I don't know.

567
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: We're going to have to really talk about the technical

568
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: part of disposing of a body in a minute.

569
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: Well, when you consider oftentimes what components are in sausage,

570
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: it would be a way in order to very effectively

571
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: get rid of a human body and have it distributed

572
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: and consume by other people.

573
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: Uh, why did I pick this case? Okay? I see,

574
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: Well that's good. Let's not give any tricks and tips

575
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: to anybody about how to dispose of a body. But

576
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,239
Speaker 1: he was in a unique position to have all of

577
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: this equipment that had the ability to hide evidence. Yes,

578
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: So he goes on trial in August. There are a

579
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: lot of witnesses on both sides. He has a great attorney.

580
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: The DA is also very skilled. But really it's circumstantial

581
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: evidence at this point because of all the excuses that

582
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: the defense attorney comes up with. Let's talk about the

583
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: prosecution first. There's a neighbor who saw smoke rising from

584
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: the factory when it shouldn't have been rising on the

585
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: night of May first, because he's been shut down, and

586
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: they think they think that they heard someone screaming at

587
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: the scene, and there was another person who believed that

588
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: they saw Adolph and Luisa enter the factory together that night.

589
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: The screaming bit. I'm not quite sure about if they're

590
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: right about her being poisoned. I kind of just figured

591
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: he gave her something to eat or drink, and she

592
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: was poisoned and that's it. But I also don't know

593
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: enough about arsenic to know if that would have been

594
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: a reaction someone had if they realized that they were

595
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: being poisoned.

596
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: If they're seeing Luisa and Adolph entering the factory, almost

597
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 2: like Luisa's just accompanying her husband into his place or

598
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: former place of work, it almost sounds like she was

599
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: met with some form of violence inside of the factory

600
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: versus being given a high dose of arsenic. That's my suspicion. Now,

601
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 2: maybe he was giving her some arsenic ahead of time,

602
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: you know, sort of that chronic dosing, you know, but

603
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: then she would end up developing, you know, some symptoms

604
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: versus a high acute level of arsenic. Poisoning inside the

605
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 2: factory doesn't make sense to me. I would think that

606
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 2: in all likelihood, once they're inside the factory, she's being

607
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: hit on the head she's being strangled, she's being stabbed,

608
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: who knows.

609
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: Okay, the prosecutors have theorized because of course people want

610
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: to motive and people want to know what happened. They

611
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: theorize that Adolph kills Louisa one way or the other,

612
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: and he decides to dispose her body using the pottish solution.

613
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 1: But the defense says the pottish was completely harmless. Adolph

614
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: says he was using it to create soap to clean

615
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: the factory so he can unload this stupid, you know,

616
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: money sucking factory off his hands, and he needed to

617
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: clean it because it was pretty disgusting. And besides, the

618
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: defense says the pottish wouldn't dissolve a body anyway, and

619
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: both sides are going to demo this in the most

620
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: disgusting way possible coming up. So what do you think

621
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: about this? I mean, as I said, I think that

622
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: to me, that seemed like a pretty good explanation for

623
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: why he would have pottish laying around. He was using

624
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: it to clean the factory. It's a good excuse.

625
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: Well, you know, this is the typical adversarial r arguments

626
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 2: that are presented in court, is that the defense is

627
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 2: dealing with this evidence, and so now they have to

628
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: come up with a reason for that evidence that seems

629
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: plausible to the jury. And here you are in the factory. Yes,

630
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: potash is it can be used in order to create

631
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: a soap. But you still have bone fragments, you still

632
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: have clothing leftover, clothing items from women's clothing, and you

633
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: have a ring that has Luisa's initials on it. So

634
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,479
Speaker 2: you know, this is where you got to explain that too.

635
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: We'll get to that first. We have to establish whether

636
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: or not if we say there are bone fragments and

637
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: they are human bone fragments in this vat. The big

638
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: question that the jury wants to know, I'm presuming, is

639
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: could the amount of pottish that he had in the

640
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: factory actually do that? Could there be a small woman

641
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: in that vat you put the pottish on top and

642
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: totally dissolves her with the exception of the little bits

643
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: of bone fragments. So this is horrific to me. The

644
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: prosecutor buys a corpse and puts it in a vat,

645
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 1: not in front of the jury, thank goodness, but puts

646
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: it in a vat just like the one of the

647
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: sausage factory. He fills it with pottish and they say

648
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: within two hours. The DA said, within two hours the

649
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: entire corpse was dissolved except for a few of its

650
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,919
Speaker 1: largest bones. Eightolph's lawyer does the same thing. I mean, ugh,

651
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: I guess these are coming from medical schools, and they say.

652
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 1: The defense says, that is not at all what happened

653
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: when we put our pottish on our corpse. That is

654
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: how far these attorneys are going to prove it, because

655
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: this seemed like one of the biggest pieces of circumstantial evidence.

656
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: Is this the way the murder of this woman was

657
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 1: covered up? And if it wasn't possible, then it didn't

658
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: happen and she is in Canada living it up with

659
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: some man. We now have dueling experts again, so the

660
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: prosecutors have expert witnesses who testify the das, and witnesses

661
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: say the bone fragments, just fragments in the vat, do

662
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: belong to a small woman. One of the experts is

663
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: an archaeologist named George Dorsey, and he says that the bones,

664
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: he believes, these fragments of bones are parts of a skull, rib, metatarsal,

665
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: blone and philanges of the foot, So Dorsey is a

666
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: big deal. He goes on to get a Harvard's first

667
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: PhD in anthropology. He says, this comes from a small woman.

668
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: These are just fragments, though, Paul, these are not full bones.

669
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: And the defense expert says, you are so wrong. This

670
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: is not a human. These come from a what is

671
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: sausage made from pig? And he broke down pigs all

672
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: the time. These are pig bones. You're all wrong.

673
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 2: Well, first the prosecutions anthropologists or you said he was

674
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: an archaeologist.

675
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: Was turned anthropologists after this case. It sounds like.

676
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: Okay, considering his opinion on which these bone fragments, you know,

677
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: sort of the body origins of these bone fragments, I

678
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: don't see how he can say these came from a

679
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: small woman. You know. You Typically when anthropologists are dealing

680
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: with skeletal remains, the primary skeletal structure that has looked

681
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 2: at to determine gender as the pelvis, and now you're

682
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: looking at an intact pelvis, or if you're looking at

683
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: the skull, sometimes you're seeing what are considered more gracial

684
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: features of the skull versus robust Those are two anthropological

685
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: terms males tend to have more robust features, such as

686
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: more pronounced eyebrow surfaces, but we see overlap between the genders.

687
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: Sometimes you can have a female that has robust features,

688
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 2: you know, And this is where in the advent of

689
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: doing DNA testing on skeletal remains has shown Sometimes the

690
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: anthropologists historically have been wrong about gender assignment when they

691
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: have complete skeletons. So now we are talking about bone fragments,

692
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 2: rib fragment, a frag metatarsal, you know, from the foot.

693
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: I don't know how the prosecution's expert could form this

694
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: opinion these came from a small female. On the other hand,

695
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: you know, with the other the defense anthropologists saying well,

696
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: these are pig I do believe that there is the

697
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: possibility by looking microscopically looking at the bone structure, that

698
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: an anthropologist might be able to discern the bony structure

699
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: under the microscope is human versus poresign. But I'm not

700
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: completely sure.

701
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: About that, and we don't know what they knew what

702
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: these experts. I know that George Dorsey, the archaeologist turned anthropologist,

703
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: sounds impressive, but I don't know what that would have

704
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: been like in you know, eighteen ninety seven, and what

705
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: they knew or didn't know. All we know is that

706
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: includes reasonable out. It seems reasonable that a pig ended

707
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: up in this vat. He said that happened. Adoll said

708
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: it could happen. It's not the end of the world.

709
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: He never explained fully the clothing and all of the

710
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: other stuff, but only to say I didn't have anything

711
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: to do with it. She could have snuck in here

712
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: and put that stuff in there herself as a way

713
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: to say screw you, you know, Adolph, I hate you

714
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 1: and I'm leaving you. But again, there is enough circumstantial

715
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: evidence to really make this an interesting case, especially Paul,

716
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: because as predicted, what I thought was, there are people

717
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: all over the United States saying they think they've seen Louisa.

718
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: But when we have we have a high profile missing

719
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: person's case, even with the case that is not very

720
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: high profile but gets some play in the media, we

721
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: always have witnesses come forward, Oh, I saw Susie, you know,

722
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: and she's over here, and you know, seeing somebody that

723
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: maybe is a look alike, a doppelganger for that, or

724
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: somebody just coming forward because they just want to have

725
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: a role in this investigation that's getting some public notoriety.

726
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: You know, when I take a look at this, you

727
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: have you have the security guard who's placing aid Off

728
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: there asking for the potash. It's very unusual. You have

729
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: a witness that sees aid Off and Luisa going into

730
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 2: the factory that night. You have a witness seeing smoke

731
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 2: coming up out of the factory. You know, things are

732
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: stacking up. So for me, you do have some circumstances.

733
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 2: You do have physical evidence. You still have the initials

734
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: l L on the ring. You have women's clothing, irregardless

735
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: of the bone fragments. I think we know what's going

736
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: on here. It's a matter of can you convince twelve

737
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: people that beyond a reasonable doubt, Louisa was placed in

738
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 2: that vat, she was basically dissolved and aid Off is

739
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 2: the one responsible for her homicide.

740
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: Not in this trial what hung jury. They couldn't do it.

741
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: The prosecutor couldn't get across what the motive was because

742
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: he didn't have life insurance on her. It seemed like

743
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: not a financial motive. And I'm not sure that they

744
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: were able to have her become enough of a character

745
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: for them to realize that maybe he just snapped one night.

746
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 1: Maybe he was tired of it, maybe he went to

747
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: marry a mistress. They just couldn't come up with a motive,

748
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: and I think that bothered the jury. So it was

749
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: a hung jury on October twenty first. So trial number two,

750
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: because you know, the DA is not going to let

751
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: this one go. The Sausage King goes on trial again,

752
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: same elements, same witnesses. The jury had been able to

753
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: see the bone fragments before. Except this is a quirky thing,

754
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: because you know, I would love to write, now call

755
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: as soon as we get off of this zoom. I

756
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: would love to call the Chicago Cold Case squad and say,

757
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: do you still have those bones? Paul can out of

758
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: pocket pay for testing.

759
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: I'm on say, spending my money, Paul as part of.

760
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: His contribution to the show, Paul pay for DNA testing.

761
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: Except the historian Robert, who really did a lot of

762
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: research on this, says that there was a juror from

763
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: the first trial who stole the bone fragments. Okay, so

764
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 1: talk about a keepsake. I mean, I guess he stole

765
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: the fragments. And one of the things that was funny

766
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: about the second trial is that the prosecutor presents these

767
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: bone fragments again at the second trial. And the problem

768
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: is is that the juror said, he spoke up in

769
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: the media and said these are fake because I have

770
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: the real ones. So automatically the prosecutor looked at a

771
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: skance at this point because they have fabricated evidence. Apparently

772
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: in the second trial.

773
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 2: Well, what's going on with the juror. I mean, this

774
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: is where DA investigator should be descending on this juror's

775
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: house with a search warrant to basically repatriate the you know,

776
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 2: these bone fragments back into people's evidence.

777
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: They didn't do that because I think the prosecutor was

778
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: in a good mood because the trial went very differently

779
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: this time around, and I don't know if it was

780
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 1: exposure to all the media and the jury. On February ninth,

781
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: the jury comes back with a guilty verdict this time.

782
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: When Adolph's verdict is read, he reportedly tells, of course,

783
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: he says this. He reportedly tells the court, she'll come

784
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: back then you'll see what fools you have been. But

785
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: Luisa has never been heard from. Yeah, and he's in

786
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: prison and he dies in eighteen ninety nine of heart trouble.

787
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: So he had been in prison for two years. Two

788
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: years and he dies in prison, and that's it for

789
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: probably murdering his wife, dissolving her in Pottish, grinding her up,

790
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: whatever it was, effectively removing the body. He spends two

791
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 1: years in prison.

792
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 2: Well he got off light. Yeah, you know, I think

793
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 2: this is an example. We see this. You know, we

794
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: do have no body cases, and I should say that

795
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 2: maybe more clearly, we do have no body cases in

796
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: which defendants are convicted because circumstances are so compelling and

797
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: there's at least enough evidence where there's confidence that there

798
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 2: has been a homicide. For example, the amount of blood

799
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: at a scene. You go, that's not somebody with a

800
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: bleeding nose. This is somebody who has lost so much

801
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: blood they cannot survive that. We don't have a body.

802
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: But now in this era we can say, yes, this

803
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 2: blood came from this person using DNA. Person's body has

804
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 2: been recovered. But a pathologist can come in and say

805
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: that is enough blood where that person is with certainty dead.

806
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: And then you have circumstances in which defendants have been

807
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: convicted of that murder. Here they are lacking the modern

808
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 2: forensic technologies in order to prove that this is Luisa's

809
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: body in this fat or the sludge. If there's a

810
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 2: way to show that the sludge contains aspects of Luisa,

811
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 2: whether it be DNA or tissue components or whatever. You know,

812
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: the fact that this alkalie substance is pressed asn't very

813
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: likely could have killed all the DNA that could have

814
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 2: been tested today. Even today, we may not have been

815
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: able to show through DNA testing that this is Louisa.

816
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: And thanks to that stinking juror, we don't have any

817
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: bone fragments to ask for.

818
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, how why isn't you're having access to that evidence?

819
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: No idea. I don't know if they allowed them to

820
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: look at it up close. I mean, I've the stories

821
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: of you know, brains floating and formaldehyde being passed throughout

822
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: the jury, but never heard of a juror having access.

823
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: Despite all of that, this has been, you know, something

824
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: that has been part of the lore of Chicago. The factory,

825
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: most of it had been torn down, but people had

826
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: said that they had seen, of course Louisa's ooh ghost

827
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: walking around the side of the factory. And now that

828
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: most of the factory has been demolished, but it was

829
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: then converted into condominiums, which are I'm sure haunted condominiums.

830
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: What a story. It's terrifying. I mean, even without making

831
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: her into sausage, it's a terrible story.

832
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: Oh well, for sure. You know the idea that there

833
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 2: isn't motive, Well, we've talked about before. You don't have

834
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: to prove motive to prove murder. But it sounds like,

835
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 2: well there was motive, it just could that be proven

836
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: by the prosecution because of the relationship, the abusive relationship,

837
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: his dalliances on the side, is there something else going

838
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 2: on in his life in which that's the reason why

839
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: he decided that he wanted to get rid of Louisa?

840
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming, I mean, were the kids that were

841
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: the two kids that were still alive, were any of

842
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 2: them Luisa's children?

843
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: I think it was the kids from the original wife

844
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: that died.

845
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 2: Got it. Yeah, you know, so you know this is again.

846
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 2: Now you have these two children who have lost their

847
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 2: their mother, they've lost their father because of his you know,

848
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: whatever selfish reason he had to kill Louisa. You know,

849
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 2: it's just it is horrifying, you know, And to take

850
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 2: that type of step. You know somebody that you loved

851
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 2: at one point time, and now you're watching them being

852
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 2: dissolved in a vat.

853
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: What a horrific way to end this show, Paul. You

854
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: have to think of something happier to say. I mean,

855
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: how terrible. I know this was a horrible story, but

856
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: I do think that the no body stories are They're

857
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. How do you prove, especially in a

858
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: case where somebody could end up dead, how do you

859
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 1: prove that that person is definitely gone so we don't

860
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: execute someone? And then Louisa walks through the door two

861
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: years later.

862
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: There are these no body cases in which law enforcement

863
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 2: is confident that the victim has been killed and is

864
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: confident on who is responsible, but they can't prove the

865
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 2: homicide Act. In fact, there is a case I was

866
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: involved with for a show out on the East Coast.

867
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 2: I'm not going to name the case in which this

868
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: woman's body has never been recovered, but the two suspects,

869
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 2: a husband and wife, were convicted of kidnapping because that's

870
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 2: what the prosecution could prove, and they didn't pursue the

871
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: murder charge. But I suspect that once this woman's body

872
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: is found that these two now convicted offenders will likely

873
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 2: be charged with murder, and they will be able to

874
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 2: move forward and make sure that those two people will

875
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: never get out of prison. So there are circumstances in

876
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: which these no body cases you can't move forward with.

877
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 2: But as I mentioned, there are cases in which you can.

878
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Is there a chance that with your serial killer clownfish

879
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: and her little buddy, would this ever be a no

880
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: body case? They can't do all that right, Clownfish can't

881
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: like magically make someone disappear. You'll have evidence if you

882
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: need it, right.

883
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 2: Oh, but they have some accessories to their crime. I

884
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 2: have stock to take with what's called the cleanup crew.

885
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 2: These are her crabs and snails and cleaner shrimp. Well,

886
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: the hermit crabs. I've had fish just disappear in this tank,

887
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: and my suspicion is as they either died or were

888
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 2: killed by the serial killer Clownfish and the hermit crabs

889
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 2: have come and completely consumed that fish's body as it

890
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: laid on the bottom of the tank. That's just the

891
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 2: way this ecosystem works.

892
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: So you have enabled this, you have created this fear

893
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: in your tank. You've enabled it with cleanup sounds like

894
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: a great place for a clownfish to be, boy, But.

895
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: I also have other good citizens in the tank, so

896
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: it is truly a social structure, both on the good

897
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: and the bad that's going on right next.

898
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: To me, perfect just like life. I hope for us

899
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 1: and for our listeners that we only encounter the blue

900
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: dory fish and not the killer clownfish between now and

901
00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: next week.

902
00:51:58,680 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 2: All right, sounds like a play.

903
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: Thank you. This has been an exactly right production for

904
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

905
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amiosi.

906
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

907
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

908
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

909
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

910
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

911
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

912
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: Barry Bones pod.

913
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

914
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

915
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

916
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

917
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,959
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now