WEBVTT - Listener Questions #26

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<v Speaker 1>Tornadoes always touched down on the plains. Is that because

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<v Speaker 1>hills block all the rains?

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<v Speaker 2>When we treat water, we rotate, filtrate, and aerrate. Tell

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<v Speaker 2>me more, but be careful how you pronounce floculate?

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<v Speaker 1>How large can a moon appear in our sky without

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<v Speaker 1>being shredded by gravity's tides?

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and Kelly's

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<v Speaker 2>answers will make it right.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello. I'm Kelly Windersmith. I study parasites and space, and

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<v Speaker 2>I am afraid of tornadoes.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm afraid

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<v Speaker 1>of Zach's comments on our poetic introductions.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Are we going to let the listeners know that

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<v Speaker 2>Zach skips the introductions for the listener question episodes because

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<v Speaker 2>he is actually really good at poetry and finds our

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<v Speaker 2>poetry sort of nauseating.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not what we're famous for. Let's just put it

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<v Speaker 1>that way.

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<v Speaker 2>We're having fun.

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<v Speaker 1>But let me put it this way. At least your

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<v Speaker 1>spouse listens to our podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, Katrina dozen Oh no, Oh, I'm mortified. Oh do

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<v Speaker 2>we really want to keep having her on our show.

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<v Speaker 2>The answer is yes, we absolutely do.

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<v Speaker 1>This is my secret plan to pull her in to

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<v Speaker 1>hook her on the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh fantastic, this is we're talking about tornadoes today. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>share our scariest tornado story. Do you have any tornado stories?

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<v Speaker 1>Ooh, I do have a tornado story, though I wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>very scared. I was in my dorm room at Rice

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<v Speaker 1>in Houston and studying really hard for a test, and

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<v Speaker 1>I heard a bunch of shouting in the hallways and

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<v Speaker 1>I ignored it because I was busy. And then later

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<v Speaker 1>I just got there was a tornado that went right

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<v Speaker 1>through Houston and within about a mile of the campus.

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<v Speaker 1>And I didn't know anything about it. Yeah, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>not very typical for tornadoes to pass through cities, so

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<v Speaker 1>it was something of an event. How about you, what's

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<v Speaker 1>the closest you've been to a tornado?

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<v Speaker 2>So Zach and I moved to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, right after

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<v Speaker 2>like the big tornado that like knocked out a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of the city, and we were in a hotel before

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<v Speaker 2>we got our keys to our place, and there was

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<v Speaker 2>a tornado warning in the area, and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh my gosh, another tornado is going to take out

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<v Speaker 2>half the city. And Zach was not worried at all,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was panicking. And Zach's like, all right, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you're obviously not going to sleep, so well you're panicking.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to take a shower. And I was looking

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<v Speaker 2>up what do you do if there's a tornado and

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<v Speaker 2>you're supposed to like get in a tub. Oh, And

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<v Speaker 2>so Zach finishes the shower, he comes out, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>panicking and I was like, I think we should get

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<v Speaker 2>in the tub. And Zach is like almost asleep already.

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<v Speaker 2>And I go into the tub and like the tub

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<v Speaker 2>is filled with water, like something can happen with the drain,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like, now we're gonna drown. And I

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<v Speaker 2>was more worried about, like Zach hampering our ability to

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<v Speaker 2>survive the tornado. And anyway, we were totally fine, and

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<v Speaker 2>I am kind of nuts.

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<v Speaker 1>Is the point sounds like a swirling panic attack?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm known for those.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually yeah, yeah, well today you don't have to panic

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<v Speaker 1>because you are not going to experience a tornado. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to experience an explanation of how tornadoes work

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<v Speaker 1>and where they form. Because we are answering questions from

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<v Speaker 1>listeners like you. People just like you who listen to

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast and want to know how things work out

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<v Speaker 1>there in the universe. They can't find answers online. They

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<v Speaker 1>ask JATGBT. They're not satisfied, so they write it to us,

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<v Speaker 1>and we are very happy to provide some answers.

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel, how can you know for sure they're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to be experiencing a tornado. They could be listening to

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<v Speaker 2>this at any time. There could be a tornado when

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<v Speaker 2>they're listening.

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<v Speaker 1>No, this is a tornado free podcast. I'm providing my guarantee.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you are violating the rules of physics, and

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<v Speaker 2>I I'm going to write the physicist board and they're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna going to lose your job. Man.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to hedge because everything is statistical in particle physics.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm gonna give you my ninety five percent guarantee,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's my highest guarantee.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, that that's a pretty high guarantee. It

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<v Speaker 2>sounds to me like you just pulled that number out

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<v Speaker 2>of us swirling thin.

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<v Speaker 1>Air all of statistics sounds like that, But really there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of rigorous calculations behind it. Trust me. All right, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>let's move on to more solid ground and answer some

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<v Speaker 1>questions from listeners. Here's a question from Patrick about tornadoes.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi, Daniel, and Kelly. We had some tornadoes touched down

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<v Speaker 3>outside of Cincinnati recently, and I've noticed tornadoes seem to

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<v Speaker 3>hit the flatter, more open areas outside the city more

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<v Speaker 3>often than the city itself. I was thinking about why

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<v Speaker 3>this might be and wondering if I'm on the right track. So,

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<v Speaker 3>the weather system builds up enough power to form a

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<v Speaker 3>tornado over the unobstructed flat land, but in hilly areas

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<v Speaker 3>and populated areas, the power is attenuated by the hills

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<v Speaker 3>and buildings or alter the tornado's oscillation is damped by

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<v Speaker 3>the obstacles. So thanks for taking my question and let

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<v Speaker 3>me know if I'm on the right track.

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<v Speaker 2>Whoa tornado's in Cincinnati. I grew up in Ohio, and

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<v Speaker 2>I don't feel like tornado should be allowed in Ohio.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry you had to go through that. Patrick.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Cincinnati's like kinda on the border, isn't it's like

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<v Speaker 1>partly in Ohio, partly in Kentucky.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, No, it's in Ohio.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't it a river that runs through it.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, maybe maybe I'm wrong. It might be a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit in Kentucky.

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<v Speaker 1>What I think technically, you're right because the part of

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<v Speaker 1>the city that's north of the Ohio River is Cincinnati,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's definitely lots of city on the other side,

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<v Speaker 1>whether or not you officially call it Cincinnati.

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel, I am gonna have to actually, I'm given this

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<v Speaker 2>point to you. I'm sorry I did not carefully study

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<v Speaker 2>Ohio geography because I was trying real hard to get

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<v Speaker 2>out of there.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, Ohio, let me tell you about your home stance.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Kelly's betten oh for one? So far?

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<v Speaker 1>All right?

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<v Speaker 2>What is the tornado? Daniel? What am I so afraid of?

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<v Speaker 1>So we've all seen tornadoes in movies, et cetera. They're

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<v Speaker 1>essentially rotating columns of air in contact with the cloud

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<v Speaker 1>and the ground. So you see this tube and it's

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<v Speaker 1>like twisting and flailing around, and they can be very

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<v Speaker 1>very powerful. The winds can be like up to four

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and eighty kilometers per hour, super incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>What is that in freedom units?

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<v Speaker 1>Fast? It's fast units? Okay, it's destructive. Yeah. And they

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<v Speaker 1>can be quite narrow or they can be really wide,

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<v Speaker 1>like big monster tornadoes up to three kilometers wide, and

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<v Speaker 1>for it to be class as a tornado has to

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<v Speaker 1>come from the cloud and make contact with the ground,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's where the destruction happens. These powerful winds, the

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<v Speaker 1>funnel touching the ground, and that funnel travels across the

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<v Speaker 1>ground and tear stuff up, and it can go for

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<v Speaker 1>like up to one hundred kilometers, tearing a path of

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<v Speaker 1>destruction across Kansas or Ohio or wherever Alabama.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, do tornadoes always go from the clouds to the ground.

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<v Speaker 2>They never go from the ground to the clouds, that's

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<v Speaker 2>right there.

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<v Speaker 1>Always start in the cloud and then descend to the ground.

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<v Speaker 1>There are other similar patterns like dust devils you might

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<v Speaker 1>have seen, which looks similar to tornadoes, but aren't officially tornadoes.

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<v Speaker 1>Those just are whirling patterns of wind on the ground

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<v Speaker 1>that touch only the ground and there's no cloud above them,

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<v Speaker 1>so they're not officially tornadoes. And if it's over water,

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<v Speaker 1>they can be called a water spout. So there's a

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<v Speaker 1>few variants of them.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, And are those things ever as damaging as tornadoes

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<v Speaker 2>or they're like tornadoes baby sisters and baby brothers.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, they can be as powerful because the storms can

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<v Speaker 1>be powerful, but unless you're living on the water, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're not damaging houses, right, So the most damaging ones

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<v Speaker 1>are the ones that touch the ground, because that's where

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<v Speaker 1>the houses are.

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<v Speaker 2>Got it, okay? All right? And where so we've noted

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<v Speaker 2>that they do sort of tend to be like aggregated

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<v Speaker 2>in certain geographic regions. Why is that.

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<v Speaker 1>This is something that really America is best at. American

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<v Speaker 1>exceptionalism has data to back it up. In the case

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<v Speaker 1>of tornadoes, most of the tornadoes in the world are

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States. We have like eight hundred per year,

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<v Speaker 1>and most of them are in a slice of the

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<v Speaker 1>US in central and southeast corners of the country, which

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<v Speaker 1>we affectionately call tornado Alley. So there's like four times

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<v Speaker 1>as many tornadoes in the US as there are in

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<v Speaker 1>all of Europe. You have a few in like South Africa,

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<v Speaker 1>some in Europe, Australia, Eastern India, but primarily it's a

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<v Speaker 1>thing the US is best at.

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<v Speaker 2>The wind really likes us, all right, So why are

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<v Speaker 2>we cursed with these tornadoes?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, So to understand why tornadoes happen here and less

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<v Speaker 1>often elsewhere, you have to understand how they form and

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<v Speaker 1>This is not something where the science is totally settled.

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<v Speaker 1>People are still working on this. It's a great example

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<v Speaker 1>of complex city. You're studying a system which has lots

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<v Speaker 1>of components which interact very strongly. Pulling a simple story

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<v Speaker 1>out of that is not always possible, but people are

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<v Speaker 1>working on it. We think that the ingredients are number one,

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<v Speaker 1>a huge thunderstorm, but not just like a normal thunderstorm,

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<v Speaker 1>one with like really powerful strong winds, hailstones, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>And in particular a thunderstorm called a super cell, which

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<v Speaker 1>is a set of tower and clouds up to fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>kilometers tall, so like a really massive cloud. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>ingredient number one. It's like a really powerful thunderstorm, a

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<v Speaker 1>very tall one. And then below that you need warm,

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<v Speaker 1>moist air on the ground, and we'll talk about how

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<v Speaker 1>these come together into a tornado in a minute. And

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<v Speaker 1>the third ingredient is sheer. You need strong changes in

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<v Speaker 1>the wind speed as you go up or down in altitude,

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<v Speaker 1>and so these things how they come together and make

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<v Speaker 1>a tornado. Again, it's not fully understood. There's a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of different theories out there. One is that it starts

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<v Speaker 1>in the storm. You have these pockets of rotation in

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<v Speaker 1>the storm and then they somehow intensify and touch the ground.

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<v Speaker 1>And one way this might happen is that the warm

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<v Speaker 1>moist air on the ground is rising up and there's

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<v Speaker 1>already like pockets of rotation in the storm, and the

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<v Speaker 1>rising air connects with those and creates like a horizontal

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<v Speaker 1>rotation or as you have this rising pattern, sort of

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<v Speaker 1>like in a hurricane, you have like rising air in

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<v Speaker 1>the center, which then moves out to the edges, so

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<v Speaker 1>you get these horizontal rotation which then gets tilted into

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<v Speaker 1>a vertical column somehow. So that's sort of one cartoon explanation.

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<v Speaker 2>But that kind of sounds like it's starting from the

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<v Speaker 2>bottom and like meeting the hurricane halfway, like it's coming

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<v Speaker 2>from the top and the bottom. So what am I

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<v Speaker 2>missing there?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're right, And again simple stories are never going

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<v Speaker 1>to describe the complexity. What's happening there is that you

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<v Speaker 1>have this rising air which is coming up and contributing

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<v Speaker 1>and helping pull the cloud down. But still a cloud

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<v Speaker 1>is moving down towards the ground. It's not like there's

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<v Speaker 1>a tornado forming on the ground and reaching up to

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<v Speaker 1>the cloud. It's really the cloud coming down to meet

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<v Speaker 1>the ground. Yes, being pulled down and contributing by stuff

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground. Okay, there's another idea that maybe there's

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<v Speaker 1>a sudden down draft, a special kind of downdraft in

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<v Speaker 1>the cloud that reaches down and squeezes a column of

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<v Speaker 1>air which happens to be spinning. And now because you've

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<v Speaker 1>squeezed it, its spinning faster, and that instigates the tornado.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is a third theory that maybe there are

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of small vortices on the ground, like a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of little random ones, which merge together and then

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<v Speaker 1>start spinning and pull the cloud down. And so there's

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<v Speaker 1>lots of different explanations. And one reason that we don't

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<v Speaker 1>have an answer is that it is a complex situation.

0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.640
<v Speaker 1>Even if you have all the data, even if you

0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.040
<v Speaker 1>take lots of measurements, answering the question of like well

0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.520
<v Speaker 1>why did this happen? Is complicated. It We touched on

0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.640
<v Speaker 1>this in our episode on causality, like is there a

0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.640
<v Speaker 1>single reason why it happens? One of the necessary ingredients.

0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Even thinking about like what an explanation would look like

0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.440
<v Speaker 1>is a little bit fuzzy because it's a really complicated environment.

0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.960
<v Speaker 1>It's not like a single Rube Goldberg machine where you say,

0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.400
<v Speaker 1>like A causes B, which causes C, which causes D. Right,

0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.160
<v Speaker 1>you have to have a lot of ingredients in place,

0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.360
<v Speaker 1>and maybe there's ranges of requirements. A lot of people

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.319
<v Speaker 1>are doing simulation studies where they try to create tornadoes

0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:17.080
<v Speaker 1>in simulations to see like what ingredients are necessary and

0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.720
<v Speaker 1>how often does it happen. It's very expensive simulations because

0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.760
<v Speaker 1>you have to assimulate like all the rain drops and

0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.960
<v Speaker 1>all the different areas of wind here and there. So

0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.640
<v Speaker 1>it's something people are definitely working on, but not something

0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:29.760
<v Speaker 1>we fully understand.

0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, I love that you've been covering the weather lately,

0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:33.680
<v Speaker 2>and so now I feel like I can ask you

0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 2>any weather related questions. So this is great for me.

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.600
<v Speaker 1>So and I'll give you a ninety five percent confident

0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:39.560
<v Speaker 1>answer on anything.

0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel great about that. But so, do we

0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.720
<v Speaker 2>understand why you get very strong thunderstorms in some area

0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.800
<v Speaker 2>since that's like ingredient number one that you need. Do

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:50.920
<v Speaker 2>we understand that?

0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.120
<v Speaker 1>Not fully weather? It's of course chaotic, but we can

0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.040
<v Speaker 1>model storms reasonably well, the formation of storms, like we

0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 1>can predict when it's going to rain and when it's

0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.600
<v Speaker 1>going to hail. Check back to our episode about predicting

0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:03.840
<v Speaker 1>the weather we did recently to hear all about that.

0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.960
<v Speaker 1>So those ingredients are reasonably well understood. But why they

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 1>come together and make a tornado sometimes and not others.

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:11.760
<v Speaker 1>It's a bit of a mystery. You have like storm

0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.520
<v Speaker 1>watchers on the ground and they'll be watching a storm like, oh,

0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:16.120
<v Speaker 1>it feels like it's going to come together, and then

0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.080
<v Speaker 1>it just like fizzles out and no tornado happens, And

0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.960
<v Speaker 1>we don't have a clear understanding of why that is. Sometimes,

0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.080
<v Speaker 1>but these rough ideas that you need a combination of

0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 1>thunderstorms and then warm air on the ground and wind shear,

0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.199
<v Speaker 1>they can help us answer Patrick's question about why tornadoes

0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:34.800
<v Speaker 1>tend to form in the plains and your question about

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 1>why Tornado Alley exists.

0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, those things that you said, those seem like there

0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.920
<v Speaker 2>are things that happen just about anywhere, right, severe storms,

0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.120
<v Speaker 2>warm moist air, and shear, Like you should be able

0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:48.640
<v Speaker 2>to get that anywhere, right, Yeah you.

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Can, and there are tornadoes all over the place. But

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>in lots of places there are mountains which block warm

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 1>moist air from coming in from the ocean, whereas in

0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.720
<v Speaker 1>the United States. For example, you got the Gulf of Mexico,

0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.439
<v Speaker 1>which is a lot of warm water, and there's a

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.199
<v Speaker 1>lot of warm moist air that comes in from the

0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Gulf of Mexico, and there's no major mountain range there

0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>to block it. Like Louisiana, no mountains there. That whole

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.520
<v Speaker 1>state is totally flat, right, So that warm moist air

0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.440
<v Speaker 1>just rolls up into the center of the United States

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:19.200
<v Speaker 1>and combines with Midwestern thunderstorms to give you tornadoes. And

0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.800
<v Speaker 1>the reason it doesn't extend like further west is we

0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.360
<v Speaker 1>have the Rocky Mountains like running through New Mexico and

0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:29.720
<v Speaker 1>Colorado and Wyoming and Idaho. The Rockies block a lot

0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.720
<v Speaker 1>of that warm moist air, and so you don't get

0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.480
<v Speaker 1>tornadoes in Utah, for example, as often as you do

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.360
<v Speaker 1>in Missouri because they're blocked from the warm moist air

0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:40.400
<v Speaker 1>from the Gulf of Mexico.

0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, California's got something going for it.

0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.240
<v Speaker 1>We got two lines that defense, the Rockies and then

0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.080
<v Speaker 1>the Sierras. So yeah, absolutely, I mean we got earthquakes

0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.640
<v Speaker 1>over here, but yeah, we don't have very often tornadoes.

0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.480
<v Speaker 2>And I just realized we are maybe taking a political

0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.560
<v Speaker 2>stance by calling it the Gulf of Mexico, and I

0:14:58.600 --> 0:14:59.240
<v Speaker 2>support it on.

0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:02.720
<v Speaker 1>We're taking a stance on facts.

0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well I just looked up Google maps and it

0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:09.640
<v Speaker 2>says Gulf of America. Now what, Oh my gosh.

0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.280
<v Speaker 1>So the answer to Patrick's question is that we have

0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.040
<v Speaker 1>tornadoes on flat land because you need that warm moist

0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 1>air and mountains blocket and so you need flat land

0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 1>and you need like an open corridor to a warm

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.960
<v Speaker 1>body of water that's going to provide that warm moist air.

0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.960
<v Speaker 1>So that's why we have Tornado Alley, and that's why

0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.640
<v Speaker 1>you have tornadoes in the city of Cincinnati in Kentucky.

0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.840
<v Speaker 2>And I hope this is but I hope this is

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the last tornado that hits Cincinnati, Ohio or Cincinnati, Kentucky.

0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:03.600
<v Speaker 2>And we're back. We're transitioning from tornadoes to biology. Yay. Biology,

0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 2>And I get to talk about parasites a little bit,

0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:06.440
<v Speaker 2>so that's exciting.

0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 1>But we have a connection. Also, this is all about

0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 1>flowing water, isn't it. Warmth and moist are going to

0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.160
<v Speaker 1>be relevant also for your question.

0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're right, But also there's some chemistry and I

0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.680
<v Speaker 2>feel like this was kind of a trick chemistry question.

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.880
<v Speaker 2>But I'm going to forgive John because parasites were tied

0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.000
<v Speaker 2>in and so that's okay, all right, So.

0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:26.680
<v Speaker 1>Let's hear the question from John.

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 4>This is John from New Mexico. A topic for biology

0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.200
<v Speaker 4>and a smattering of physics is how do you make

0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.840
<v Speaker 4>water safe to drink without OD and on chlorine? You

0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.400
<v Speaker 4>could compare Los Angeles Rural Virginia background through methods and

0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.720
<v Speaker 4>A word of the day in water treatment I understand

0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.200
<v Speaker 4>is floculation, and I bet Kelly Kent state it fast

0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.200
<v Speaker 4>enough without making the shows rating in R instead of

0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:51.440
<v Speaker 4>a G.

0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.040
<v Speaker 2>All right, So I have practice saying floculation so that

0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.120
<v Speaker 2>this show can remain G instead of R or PG thirteen.

0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 2>So when you're trying to clean water, you've got a

0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.479
<v Speaker 2>couple goals. So one, you want to remove debris like

0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.480
<v Speaker 2>sticks and rocks and rags and stuff like that because

0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.199
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to be drinking that. Of course, you

0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.720
<v Speaker 2>want to kill parasites, viruses and bacteria, and you want

0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.680
<v Speaker 2>to remove toxic stuff like pesticides.

0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:21.760
<v Speaker 1>So where is this water coming from. We're drawing it

0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.760
<v Speaker 1>from like random rivers, or we're recycling water that's been used,

0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:27.840
<v Speaker 1>or we're gathering rain water or what.

0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so John wanted to know how you get water

0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:35.399
<v Speaker 2>for for example, a big city, a rural area and

0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:39.160
<v Speaker 2>if you're back country hiking and so, but I did

0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.800
<v Speaker 2>do a deep dive into how we treat our sewage.

0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.360
<v Speaker 2>So if Daniel wants to know about treating sewage, I'm

0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.560
<v Speaker 2>happy to tell you because I found that fascinating when

0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:47.080
<v Speaker 2>I got to that.

0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, I happen to know that Orange County leads the

0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 1>world with their toilet to tap system.

0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh WHOA, that's excited.

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Katrina is a big fan. She's always visiting the Orange

0:17:57.840 --> 0:17:59.920
<v Speaker 1>County sewage treatment plant to get samples.

0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.359
<v Speaker 2>Well that's because she wants the phages that are in there, right,

0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.040
<v Speaker 2>because yes, everyone should check out our episode with Katrina

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.240
<v Speaker 2>on phage therapy. That was amazing. All right, well let's

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.120
<v Speaker 2>start with Let's imagine that you are pulling water from

0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.560
<v Speaker 2>a lake or a river or something like that. Okay,

0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.680
<v Speaker 2>and so you've you've got this water. It might have dirt,

0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.400
<v Speaker 2>it might have sticks, it might have parasites, and so

0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.760
<v Speaker 2>the first thing you're gonna do is just like filter

0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:25.760
<v Speaker 2>out the big stuff. So if there's like a stick

0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.000
<v Speaker 2>in there, you just you get that stuff out. And

0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.439
<v Speaker 2>so now what you've got is water that has a

0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.560
<v Speaker 2>bunch of little tiny particles in there that you don't

0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.840
<v Speaker 2>really want in there anymore. And because they're so small,

0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.119
<v Speaker 2>they're going to take a really long time to settle out.

0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.240
<v Speaker 2>And so what you want to do is figure out

0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.800
<v Speaker 2>a way to get them to settle out faster. And

0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.520
<v Speaker 2>so the first step is called coagulation, because you're trying

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.320
<v Speaker 2>to get all of these tiny particles to stick together

0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.159
<v Speaker 2>so they'll settle to the bottom. And so these tiny

0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:58.160
<v Speaker 2>little particles often have charges, and because they're charged, when

0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.520
<v Speaker 2>they get close to one another, they don't tend to

0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.600
<v Speaker 2>stick together because they might repel each other. And so

0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.840
<v Speaker 2>what they do, and this is where the chemistry comes in.

0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.320
<v Speaker 1>H and so I know, gosh, bracing myself.

0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.919
<v Speaker 2>Well, we're not going to get that detailed, so don't worry.

0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.600
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, so they tend to dump stuff in there,

0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.479
<v Speaker 2>like salts or kinds of aluminium or kinds of iron.

0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 2>And essentially the goal is to binds to these charge

0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.399
<v Speaker 2>particles and make them neutral so that when these tiny

0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.199
<v Speaker 2>little particles bump into one another, they're more likely to

0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 2>stick together and form bigger chunks.

0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.520
<v Speaker 1>I see all right, so neutralize their charges, let them

0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.000
<v Speaker 1>happily clump up together so they're easier to filter out.

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, exactly. Okay, so now you've got these clumps, but

0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.720
<v Speaker 2>you want to make those clumps even bigger actually, because

0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:45.920
<v Speaker 2>that would make it easier for them to fall down

0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.399
<v Speaker 2>to the bottom so that you can get them all

0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.560
<v Speaker 2>out of there. And so the next step is the

0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:54.200
<v Speaker 2>step that John mentioned, which is floculation. And essentially what.

0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.080
<v Speaker 1>You're doing is it sounds like a punishment.

0:19:56.200 --> 0:20:01.159
<v Speaker 2>It does flagellation or something like that, but but no

0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.040
<v Speaker 2>focus on flock. So flock is like a group of things.

0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:07.720
<v Speaker 2>And the goal here is that you are very gently

0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 2>mixing the water so that the tiny clumps that you've

0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.680
<v Speaker 2>made start bumping into other clumps. And now they start

0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.280
<v Speaker 2>making much bigger clumps. You know. It's like a flock

0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.640
<v Speaker 2>of birds, you know, as they merge in the sky

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.200
<v Speaker 2>together and all head to their migration site. But here

0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.119
<v Speaker 2>it's junk that you don't want to be drinking, and

0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.600
<v Speaker 2>so they bump into each other form big chunks, and

0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 2>then you bring them to another area like another big pool.

0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:34.879
<v Speaker 2>And this is the sedimentation step. So you basically just

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.600
<v Speaker 2>let the heavy stuff fall out by letting the water

0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.120
<v Speaker 2>sit for a while, and you draw the water off

0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the top.

0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.760
<v Speaker 1>And so we've added salts and aluminum and iron in

0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.000
<v Speaker 1>order to help the stuff clump together. And what is

0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.159
<v Speaker 1>the stuff that we're gathering up? What is the stuff

0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:50.119
<v Speaker 1>that's clumping? Where does it come from? Why is it

0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:50.760
<v Speaker 1>there anyway?

0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:53.479
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean we're collecting from a natural system, and

0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.000
<v Speaker 2>so it could be little bits of poop or little

0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.760
<v Speaker 2>bits of sand, or you know, could it could be

0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.440
<v Speaker 2>just about anything. There's a lot of things in the river.

0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.080
<v Speaker 1>The technical term I think is dirt.

0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Does dirt also cover poop? And that's news to me.

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:10.520
<v Speaker 1>I think a big fraction of dirt is poop, isn't it.

0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:12.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Yeah, you should ask your what I.

0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Think I will, okay, and then we'll ask your husband

0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:16.679
<v Speaker 1>to write a poem about it.

0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh fantastic. Oh this is a family affair. I love

0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.439
<v Speaker 2>it all right. So you let the heavy stuff settle

0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:24.520
<v Speaker 2>to the bottom. You draw the water from the top

0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:26.679
<v Speaker 2>because all the heavy stuff is now down at the bottom,

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.560
<v Speaker 2>and now you start running it through different kinds of filters.

0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:31.880
<v Speaker 2>So what you've done is you've removed like you know,

0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.240
<v Speaker 2>the poop, the dirt, whatever, the heavy stuff. But now

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.240
<v Speaker 2>you want to make sure that there's no bacteria, parasites

0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.439
<v Speaker 2>or viruses in there anymore. These things are kind of tiny,

0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:43.680
<v Speaker 2>and so now you need to start passing the water

0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.359
<v Speaker 2>through different kinds of filters that are going to catch

0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:47.280
<v Speaker 2>these tiny things.

0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Wow. So even for those super tiny stuff, you're still

0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:54.399
<v Speaker 1>using physical filters like super tiny meshes to block like viruses.

0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:55.359
<v Speaker 1>That's insane.

0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, we're also going to get to a disinfection step

0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and so they get a little bit more serious eventually.

0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.879
<v Speaker 2>But here we're still trying to remove like the bigger stuff, like,

0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.879
<v Speaker 2>for example, parasites probably get stuck if you make it

0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.639
<v Speaker 2>go through like a big thing of sand, and the

0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:11.639
<v Speaker 2>water has to sort of like filter through the sand.

0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:14.640
<v Speaker 2>So you get some of that stuff out that way.

0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.879
<v Speaker 1>But it's basically still the pasta strainer strategy.

0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:21.760
<v Speaker 2>With a very very fine hole in the pasta strainer. Yeah.

0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.639
<v Speaker 2>So I mean think about like passing water over sand

0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.320
<v Speaker 2>or gravel and in some cases charcoal and charcoal is

0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:32.480
<v Speaker 2>using like Vanderwall's forces to capture stuff and then you

0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:36.639
<v Speaker 2>know it, whatever trickles out the bottom is probably pretty clean.

0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.440
<v Speaker 2>But viruses are really tiny, and so the viruses and

0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.320
<v Speaker 2>stuff probably got through there, and so the next step

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:48.800
<v Speaker 2>is disinfection, where they usually add like chlorine, chlorine, chlorine dioxide,

0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.439
<v Speaker 2>chlorine stuff to try to kill whatever is left in

0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:55.240
<v Speaker 2>there that might be alive. They can also pass it

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.280
<v Speaker 2>through like some UV light to try to like break

0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:00.679
<v Speaker 2>up the DNA in these organisms to kill them. But

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.600
<v Speaker 2>most places, as far as I can tell, use some

0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:07.400
<v Speaker 2>version of like you know, bleach, some version of like chlorine.

0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:11.080
<v Speaker 2>And the other benefit of using chlorine is that it

0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:14.320
<v Speaker 2>continues to kill things as the water is passing through

0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.840
<v Speaker 2>your local like municipal pipes to get to your house well.

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:20.000
<v Speaker 1>At the Orange County Water Treatment plant, they walk you

0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:21.639
<v Speaker 1>through the whole process and at the end they have

0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:23.360
<v Speaker 1>a tap and they like pour you a glass of water,

0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:25.520
<v Speaker 1>and they're like here you go, and you've seen it

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 1>come from like raw sewage, oh man, and it's crystal clear,

0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 1>beautiful water and you and you drink it. Oh yeah.

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.760
<v Speaker 1>A lot of our water comes from toilets, which is

0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.000
<v Speaker 1>actually the connection with our first question, because you know,

0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:41.120
<v Speaker 1>how does that water get to the seward treatment plant

0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:43.320
<v Speaker 1>will flush it down the toilet. We create a little

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:44.440
<v Speaker 1>toilet tornado.

0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:47.879
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I didn't see where that was going until you

0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:48.400
<v Speaker 2>got there.

0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.520
<v Speaker 1>But it's a bit of a reach, ye, all right.

0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:53.479
<v Speaker 1>So does that mean that the water that's coming out

0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:55.800
<v Speaker 1>of our tap has chlorine and these chemicals in it

0:23:55.920 --> 0:24:00.840
<v Speaker 1>and also like destroyed carcasses of bacteria and by because

0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:02.960
<v Speaker 1>they can't actually remove it, right, it's still in there.

0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. And according to the Center for Disease

0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Control or the CDC, low levels of disinfectants like chlorine

0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:12.760
<v Speaker 2>in your water don't make people sick, but some people

0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.080
<v Speaker 2>are more sensitive to this kind of stuff than other people.

0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:17.919
<v Speaker 2>If you're worried, you should talk to your physician. But

0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:20.359
<v Speaker 2>we have been treating water like this for about one

0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:23.680
<v Speaker 2>hundred years and for most people it's not a problem.

0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.640
<v Speaker 1>And are these strategies different from what you might do

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:29.040
<v Speaker 1>in a rural region or if you're like in the

0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:30.080
<v Speaker 1>back country.

0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:30.919
<v Speaker 2>Super different?

0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Really?

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So for example, I live in a very rural region.

0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:37.440
<v Speaker 2>I say that I live in Charlottesville, but I actually

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.480
<v Speaker 2>live on a farm, you know, a bit away from Charlottesville,

0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:44.280
<v Speaker 2>and what we use is groundwater. So we talked about

0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:46.639
<v Speaker 2>how in a city you'd go through a bunch of

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:50.439
<v Speaker 2>different kinds of filtration methods, but here the filtration method

0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:54.679
<v Speaker 2>that we use is nature. You know, rain water falls

0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.400
<v Speaker 2>on the ground and it has to trickle through loads

0:24:57.440 --> 0:24:59.600
<v Speaker 2>of dirt and sand and stuff, and a bunch of

0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:01.640
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that you don't want to be drinking sort

0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.320
<v Speaker 2>of gets stopped by the sand on the way down

0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.280
<v Speaker 2>to become part of the groundwater. So the groundwater is like,

0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's like a hard rock underneath groundwater accumulates

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:12.719
<v Speaker 2>on top of it, and then you can dig a

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:15.600
<v Speaker 2>well that goes into the area where water is stored

0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:18.639
<v Speaker 2>underground and you can pump that up into your house.

0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:19.600
<v Speaker 2>Does that make sense?

0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:22.160
<v Speaker 1>It's sort of amazing. I mean, you're talking about using

0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:23.639
<v Speaker 1>nature to filter out nature.

0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:28.199
<v Speaker 2>Yes, but it doesn't always work fantastically. So if you

0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:31.720
<v Speaker 2>live in a city, then your water has to pass

0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.000
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of tests before it gets to you, or

0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:37.920
<v Speaker 2>like the facility needs to regularly do monitoring to make

0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:39.960
<v Speaker 2>sure that like the levels that it has to hit

0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:44.360
<v Speaker 2>are being achieved, whereas me I have to collect water

0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:46.879
<v Speaker 2>samples every year and pay somebody to test our water

0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:50.160
<v Speaker 2>to make sure that, for example, our septic system isn't

0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:54.280
<v Speaker 2>leaking bacteria into the groundwater or you know, I live

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:56.080
<v Speaker 2>around a lot of farms. If they were using a

0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:58.440
<v Speaker 2>bunch of pesticides, maybe some of them could seep down

0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:00.560
<v Speaker 2>into the groundwater and end up in our drinking water.

0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:04.320
<v Speaker 1>So your groundwater has no filters other than this natural system,

0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:05.879
<v Speaker 1>like you just pump it up and drink it.

0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:09.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, wow, yeah it does. It goes through like a

0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:11.600
<v Speaker 2>sedimentation step just to make sure that any dirt has

0:26:11.640 --> 0:26:13.960
<v Speaker 2>fallen out of it. But we don't do anything after that.

0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:16.400
<v Speaker 1>And when people visit your farm, you don't ask them

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:18.320
<v Speaker 1>to like sign a waiver or anything. I mean, I've

0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:19.040
<v Speaker 1>drunk this water.

0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:20.600
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say, I didn't ask you to sign

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:22.120
<v Speaker 2>a Katrina.

0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:24.840
<v Speaker 1>I wish i'd heard this podcast episode before I visited.

0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:28.199
<v Speaker 2>But like I said, we get our water tested, and

0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:33.800
<v Speaker 2>our water always has pristine levels of everything. So country living.

0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:34.600
<v Speaker 1>It was delicious.

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thank you, country living at its best.

0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:43.199
<v Speaker 1>Wow. All right, button up your overalls and have a

0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:44.880
<v Speaker 1>glassy It always sounds good.

0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:45.960
<v Speaker 2>Well I don't know why I had to go to

0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:47.360
<v Speaker 2>the overalls, but anyway, all.

0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:50.240
<v Speaker 1>Right, country living, No, you don't wear overalls around the farm.

0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Not yet, not yet. I'll get there. I'll get there,

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:55.040
<v Speaker 2>But so maybe next year when I start with my dairy.

0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:57.679
<v Speaker 1>Goats and don't misinterpret me. Overalls was a positive comment.

0:26:57.760 --> 0:26:58.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm not anti overalls.

0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:02.800
<v Speaker 2>No, they do look very comfy, all right.

0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:04.720
<v Speaker 1>So what about if you're hiking in the back country

0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:06.520
<v Speaker 1>and you don't have access to any of these things?

0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:06.959
<v Speaker 1>What do you do?

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, first all, note that not everybody is as

0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:11.480
<v Speaker 2>lucky as I am. They don't always live in an

0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:14.080
<v Speaker 2>area where the groundwater is clean, and which case they

0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:17.320
<v Speaker 2>do have to use extra filters or disinfectants and stuff

0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:19.240
<v Speaker 2>like that. So we're lucky we don't have to add

0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:21.160
<v Speaker 2>extra steps, but depending on where you are, you might

0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:24.160
<v Speaker 2>have to. If you are in the back country, maybe

0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:26.240
<v Speaker 2>what you're doing is you pull up to a river

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:28.679
<v Speaker 2>and you pull some water out, and that is the

0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:30.240
<v Speaker 2>only water you have to drink. So what are you

0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:32.280
<v Speaker 2>going to do? The first thing you're going to do

0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 2>for all the methods we're going to talk about is

0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:36.360
<v Speaker 2>strain the big junk out of it. Yeah, take out

0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:38.200
<v Speaker 2>the rocks, take out the leaves, maybe pass it through

0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:40.840
<v Speaker 2>a handkerchief or something. And then I check the CDC

0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:44.320
<v Speaker 2>website and actually have pretty good, pretty detailed instructions for

0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.199
<v Speaker 2>what you're supposed to do, and the best thing to do,

0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:50.400
<v Speaker 2>if you're able, is to boil it. Boiling will kill

0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:53.480
<v Speaker 2>the bacteria, it'll kill the viruses, it'll kill the parasites.

0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:55.679
<v Speaker 2>And if you bring it up to boiling for just

0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.760
<v Speaker 2>one minute, that's usually all it takes. But if you're

0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:02.240
<v Speaker 2>at high elevation, like above sixty five hundred feet, you

0:28:02.280 --> 0:28:04.520
<v Speaker 2>need to boil it for three times as long. And

0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 2>that is because of chemistry. So you can blame chemistry.

0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:11.040
<v Speaker 1>Because water boils at lower temperatures at high.

0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:13.280
<v Speaker 2>Yes, exactly, so you need to do it for longer.

0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:15.560
<v Speaker 1>And I love how thorough they are in their warnings.

0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:18.080
<v Speaker 1>They say, to avoid burns, allow the water to cool

0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:21.720
<v Speaker 1>before using it, don't drink boiling water people.

0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right, that's right. Remember to breathe while you're

0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:27.040
<v Speaker 2>doing this process, and do.

0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Not take a shower in boiling water, thank you, CDC.

0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Right, don't stick knives in your eye. Yeah, but you

0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:36.120
<v Speaker 2>know they're covering their tails.

0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:38.280
<v Speaker 1>Anytime you read one of these, I imagine that there

0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:41.400
<v Speaker 1>was some instance where somebody needed that warning, you know,

0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:43.400
<v Speaker 1>and they're responding to them. They're like, all right, we

0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:45.960
<v Speaker 1>didn't think we had to say this, but apparently here.

0:28:45.720 --> 0:28:47.880
<v Speaker 2>We are exactly.

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:48.200
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I do feel like anytime there's a tenus like that,

0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:52.160
<v Speaker 2>there's a story that you probably would want to hear.

0:28:52.240 --> 0:28:55.760
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, all right, so what if for whatever reason,

0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:59.560
<v Speaker 2>you can't boil you are hiking and it's raining and

0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:03.000
<v Speaker 2>you can't startifire or something. In that case, you can

0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:06.240
<v Speaker 2>hope that you thought ahead to bring a couple different

0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:09.600
<v Speaker 2>kinds of filters with you. And the problem with filters,

0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:12.880
<v Speaker 2>or the difficulty with filters, is something we talked about earlier,

0:29:12.920 --> 0:29:17.640
<v Speaker 2>which is that viruses are really really small, so getting

0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:21.720
<v Speaker 2>a filter that can filter out viruses is really difficult,

0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:24.520
<v Speaker 2>very teeny diny little holes that stuff needs to pass through.

0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:29.080
<v Speaker 2>You can use a reverse osmosis system, where essentially they're

0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:32.920
<v Speaker 2>like pushing water through a very very very very very

0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:36.280
<v Speaker 2>fine mesh and just about anything that isn't water doesn't

0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:38.080
<v Speaker 2>make it through to the other side, and so you

0:29:38.160 --> 0:29:39.640
<v Speaker 2>end up with like one side that has all the

0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:41.600
<v Speaker 2>gross stuff mixed with some water, and one side that

0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:44.600
<v Speaker 2>has clean water. I feel like I got mixed answers

0:29:44.600 --> 0:29:47.080
<v Speaker 2>on whether or not this will remove parasites. This might

0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:49.520
<v Speaker 2>work if you're like really in a pinch, but you know,

0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:51.920
<v Speaker 2>I think you pretty much always want to boil it

0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:54.080
<v Speaker 2>or maybe use one of these filters followed by a

0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:57.960
<v Speaker 2>disinfectant that's more likely to kill the viruses, and so

0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:02.280
<v Speaker 2>disinfectants is another option. This doesn't work as well against parasites.

0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 2>Parasites are like bigger and a little bit harder to kill,

0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:08.320
<v Speaker 2>so like chlorine or iodine is maybe less likely to

0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 2>kill them, although it might kill some of them. But

0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 2>you can add chlorine or iodine, but if you're pregnant

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:15.920
<v Speaker 2>or have some other issues with iodine, you might want

0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:19.480
<v Speaker 2>to skip iodine. Check the CDC website. But basically you

0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:23.120
<v Speaker 2>can add some chemicals to also kill parasites. Finally, if

0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:25.760
<v Speaker 2>you're really in a pinch and all you have is

0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:30.240
<v Speaker 2>a plastic bottle with no filters, no disinfectants, you can

0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:32.680
<v Speaker 2>still try to filter it to get the big stuff out,

0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:35.560
<v Speaker 2>and you want that water to be as clear as

0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:37.800
<v Speaker 2>possible because you're going to be trying to use the

0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:40.480
<v Speaker 2>sun's UV radiation to kill stuff that's in there.

0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:42.640
<v Speaker 1>Particle physics is our last line of defense.

0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh this counts as particle physics.

0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:45.680
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm.

0:30:46.040 --> 0:30:47.040
<v Speaker 2>All right, I'll give it to you.

0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:51.240
<v Speaker 1>These are high energy photons exactly zapping those viruses.

0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:53.880
<v Speaker 2>I was wondering why you looked like you were getting

0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:56.440
<v Speaker 2>excited about something, and I realized, now you were getting

0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:58.680
<v Speaker 2>excited because we were about to get to particle physics.

0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 2>But I'm learning to read you. I should have known

0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:03.120
<v Speaker 2>particle physics was coming.

0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:05.600
<v Speaker 1>That's how you know.

0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:08.880
<v Speaker 2>That's how you know, all right, So anything that makes

0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:11.080
<v Speaker 2>the water cloudy you want to get out because any

0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:13.840
<v Speaker 2>suspended particle in there is going to stop UV radiation

0:31:13.880 --> 0:31:16.200
<v Speaker 2>from hitting the bacteria and viruses that you're trying to kill.

0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:19.800
<v Speaker 2>If it's a super sunny day and your water super clear,

0:31:20.200 --> 0:31:22.240
<v Speaker 2>then you can leave a plastic bottle filled with water

0:31:22.360 --> 0:31:24.400
<v Speaker 2>under the sun for about six hours and that will

0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:26.120
<v Speaker 2>probably kill everything hopefully.

0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:26.560
<v Speaker 1>Amazing.

0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, amazing, totally. And if it's cloudy, you might want

0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.320
<v Speaker 2>to wait, like as much as two days. I think

0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:33.720
<v Speaker 2>I'd still feel better if I did some other additional

0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:34.560
<v Speaker 2>treatments to it.

0:31:34.680 --> 0:31:36.840
<v Speaker 1>What if you launched your water into space so it's

0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:39.480
<v Speaker 1>exposed to radiation in space? Would that make it safer?

0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.640
<v Speaker 1>How did you not prepare for that question? You're an

0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 1>expert on space.

0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:48.760
<v Speaker 2>So what I'm wondering is so okay. So we talked

0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:52.000
<v Speaker 2>about how space can even kill tartar grades, which are,

0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:55.719
<v Speaker 2>like I supposably indestructible. But what I'm wondering is if

0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:57.719
<v Speaker 2>you launched it to space, would that, like if there

0:31:57.720 --> 0:32:01.560
<v Speaker 2>were pesticides in the water, would solve the problem of

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:04.000
<v Speaker 2>the chemicals? And so I do think that would kill

0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:08.479
<v Speaker 2>bacteria and viruses and parasites, But I don't know if

0:32:08.480 --> 0:32:11.040
<v Speaker 2>it would remove pesticides the same way as like a

0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.680
<v Speaker 2>charcoal filter would. And so I think for any of

0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:15.520
<v Speaker 2>these things, it's important to keep in mind, like what

0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:18.160
<v Speaker 2>are my goals? You know, if you're drinking from a

0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:21.440
<v Speaker 2>waterway and there's a bunch of farms upriver, you might

0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:23.960
<v Speaker 2>want to worry about pesticides, and maybe you want something

0:32:23.960 --> 0:32:26.360
<v Speaker 2>like a charcoal filter. But if you're just worried about

0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:29.800
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to get giardia beaver fever, then maybe

0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:32.760
<v Speaker 2>disinfecting is the way to go beaver fever.

0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:35.400
<v Speaker 1>I've never heard of that.

0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh no. I think Giardia became famous when some people

0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:42.400
<v Speaker 2>were camping downstream of a beaver dam and the beavers

0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:46.479
<v Speaker 2>gave them giardia, which gives them massive diarrhea and had

0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:48.720
<v Speaker 2>a friend who got giardia once. She called it muddy

0:32:48.720 --> 0:32:49.520
<v Speaker 2>butthole disease.

0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:52.560
<v Speaker 1>But the good news is, if you're an astronaut and

0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:55.000
<v Speaker 1>you're in space, your water is probably not going to

0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:56.520
<v Speaker 1>give you beaver disease.

0:32:57.080 --> 0:33:01.320
<v Speaker 2>That's probably true, but you are probably drinking yesterday's coffee.

0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:03.720
<v Speaker 2>You're drinking recycled urine and sweats.

0:33:04.040 --> 0:33:05.920
<v Speaker 1>All right, well, let's hear if we have muddied the

0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:09.680
<v Speaker 1>waters or clarified everything. For John, Oh, that.

0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:11.400
<v Speaker 2>Was bravo, Daniel, bravo.

0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:15.840
<v Speaker 4>Thank you Kelly for the insightful answer. You floculated all

0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:20.600
<v Speaker 4>the little bits and pieces into really understandable podcast. Thank

0:33:20.640 --> 0:33:21.120
<v Speaker 4>you again.

0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:44.360
<v Speaker 2>So we've established that you can probably get clean water

0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:47.880
<v Speaker 2>in space by just exposing it to how horrible space is.

0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Another horrible thing that could happen in space would be

0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:52.320
<v Speaker 2>if your moon broke into many pieces.

0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 1>But one of the amazing things about space is that

0:33:56.840 --> 0:34:00.600
<v Speaker 1>it exposes us to other kinds of environment and other

0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:03.320
<v Speaker 1>kinds of vistas. And we've all seen movies where you

0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:06.280
<v Speaker 1>have like two stars in the sky or huge moons.

0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:09.920
<v Speaker 1>And one of our favorite listeners, Joe, has a question

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:12.440
<v Speaker 1>about what extremes are possible.

0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:16.000
<v Speaker 5>Hi, Daniel and Kelly, this is Joe from Florida. Loving

0:34:16.040 --> 0:34:19.600
<v Speaker 5>the show, but even more really appreciate your willingness to

0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:24.040
<v Speaker 5>answer random questions from any one of us. To that point,

0:34:24.440 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 5>I'm playing games and other imagery of sci fi planets

0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:32.080
<v Speaker 5>and worlds. It's really common to see a massive planetary

0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:34.560
<v Speaker 5>body taking much of the sky, kind of like a

0:34:34.719 --> 0:34:37.080
<v Speaker 5>moon of a gas giant, where it's just the whole

0:34:37.160 --> 0:34:40.920
<v Speaker 5>thing creates a very alien appearance. So I got to

0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:44.319
<v Speaker 5>thinking after the Parker solar probe quote touched the Sun,

0:34:44.800 --> 0:34:47.520
<v Speaker 5>I ran those numbers, and even at closest approach, I

0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:50.319
<v Speaker 5>think it was only about a twelve degree of the

0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:53.520
<v Speaker 5>sky field of view, so it'd be big, but not

0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:57.759
<v Speaker 5>completely taking up your vision big. So my question is,

0:34:57.760 --> 0:35:01.800
<v Speaker 5>is based on Roch limits and assumptions of standard planetary compositions,

0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:05.359
<v Speaker 5>what's the largest a body can appear in the sky. Well,

0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:07.840
<v Speaker 5>your own world is still kind of in a stable

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:11.080
<v Speaker 5>orbit and you're not being torn apart or coming into

0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:14.600
<v Speaker 5>any of those majora's mass kind of situations. Thanks a lot,

0:35:14.640 --> 0:35:16.040
<v Speaker 5>guys love the show.

0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:18.960
<v Speaker 1>All right, So this is a super fun hypothetical question.

0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:22.880
<v Speaker 1>He's essentially asking how close can we get to science fiction?

0:35:23.440 --> 0:35:27.000
<v Speaker 1>How big in the sky can something appear and still

0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:28.759
<v Speaker 1>obey the laws of physics?

0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:31.359
<v Speaker 2>Love it? And so did this require you to do

0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:34.280
<v Speaker 2>some actual math or was this answer available somewhere.

0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:36.520
<v Speaker 1>No, I had to do a little bit of calculations here.

0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:40.160
<v Speaker 1>This is very cool. I liked thinking about this because

0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:42.680
<v Speaker 1>it's super awesome to have big features in the sky.

0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:46.799
<v Speaker 1>There's something really powerful about that because you're connected to them.

0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:49.960
<v Speaker 1>You're like seeing the scale of the Solar System and

0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:52.840
<v Speaker 1>the universe in the sky. And you know, we're lucky

0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:55.360
<v Speaker 1>that our moon is so big and so close, and

0:35:55.400 --> 0:35:57.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people aren't aware, but there are bigger

0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:01.799
<v Speaker 1>things in the sky than the moon. For example, Androma

0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:05.879
<v Speaker 1>the galaxy is bigger in the night sky than the moon.

0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:07.920
<v Speaker 1>We think of it as super distant, and it is,

0:36:07.960 --> 0:36:11.480
<v Speaker 1>but it's also incredibly big. The reason that's a surprise

0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:13.040
<v Speaker 1>is that most of the time you can't see it

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:16.040
<v Speaker 1>because it's dim. But if you train a camera on

0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:18.919
<v Speaker 1>it and follow it and accumulate light, you can see

0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:22.200
<v Speaker 1>Andromeda in the sky. So not with your eyes, unfortunately,

0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:24.640
<v Speaker 1>but it's there, dominating the night sky.

0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Still kind of feels like cheating to compare an entire

0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:28.560
<v Speaker 2>galaxy to a moon.

0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:32.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, we're just talking about angular sizes, right,

0:36:32.080 --> 0:36:34.879
<v Speaker 1>It's just for a reference. Obviously, the Moon is much

0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:38.520
<v Speaker 1>smaller than Andromeda, but so much closer, and that's really

0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:41.279
<v Speaker 1>the trade off here. What we're talking about is the

0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:45.080
<v Speaker 1>size in the sky, which is what we call angular distance.

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:48.040
<v Speaker 1>And the way you calculate this is there's a formula,

0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:50.920
<v Speaker 1>but essentially it depends on the radius of the object

0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:53.760
<v Speaker 1>and on the distance from the object. So the bigger

0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:55.319
<v Speaker 1>the object, the bigger it is in the night sky.

0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:57.680
<v Speaker 1>The further away it is, the smaller it is in

0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:00.000
<v Speaker 1>the night sky. So to be big in the night sky,

0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:02.640
<v Speaker 1>you can be pretty small but very very close, or

0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:06.080
<v Speaker 1>you can be far away but absolutely enormous. And so

0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:07.239
<v Speaker 1>that's how you calculate it.

0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I haven't stared at the Sun for very

0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:11.960
<v Speaker 2>long because I've been told not to. Yes, but if

0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:14.120
<v Speaker 2>I were to stare at the Sun, would the Sun

0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:16.680
<v Speaker 2>in the moon? Would they be about the same size?

0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:18.960
<v Speaker 2>How different in size would they be if I stared?

0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Well we know this because we have eclipses. Right, the

0:37:22.000 --> 0:37:24.879
<v Speaker 1>Moon is almost exactly the same size as the Sun

0:37:25.080 --> 0:37:28.719
<v Speaker 1>in the sky. They're both about half a degree, which

0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:31.960
<v Speaker 1>is the unit we use, and that's just an incredible coincidence.

0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:34.879
<v Speaker 1>Often in science, when we see coincidences, we're like, hmm,

0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:38.120
<v Speaker 1>what does that mean? Is that a clue? Why is that?

0:37:38.560 --> 0:37:41.560
<v Speaker 1>But sometimes they're just coincidences, like there's no reason that

0:37:41.600 --> 0:37:43.800
<v Speaker 1>the Moon and the Sun have to take up almost

0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:46.879
<v Speaker 1>exactly the same amount of sky. But it does lead

0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:51.280
<v Speaker 1>to very spectacular eclipses. So we're very grateful for this coincidence.

0:37:51.840 --> 0:37:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Maybe the aliens knew we would really enjoy eclipses, so they,

0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:56.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, they work some stuff out for us.

0:37:56.920 --> 0:37:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that or the programmers of the simulation. Oh, I

0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:00.800
<v Speaker 1>don't know, but it works out.

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:02.400
<v Speaker 2>Pretty well, all right, thanks whoever.

0:38:02.600 --> 0:38:04.719
<v Speaker 1>So, the biggest easily visible thing in our night sky

0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:07.040
<v Speaker 1>are the Sun and the moon about half a degree,

0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:10.120
<v Speaker 1>and Joe's wondering about how big things can get. And

0:38:10.120 --> 0:38:12.360
<v Speaker 1>the physics we have to understand here are the physics

0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:16.279
<v Speaker 1>of tidal forces. That is, the Earth pulls on the

0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Moon with its gravity, and we tend to think about

0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 1>the Earth as a point and the Moon is a

0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:23.759
<v Speaker 1>point and forces between those two points, but they're not

0:38:23.800 --> 0:38:26.560
<v Speaker 1>really points. The Moon has a side that's closer and

0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:29.160
<v Speaker 1>a side that's further away. It has an extent to it,

0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:31.520
<v Speaker 1>and the side of the Moon that's closer feels the

0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:33.919
<v Speaker 1>Earth's gravity more powerfully than the side of the Moon

0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:37.520
<v Speaker 1>that's further away, because gravity depends on distance, and so

0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:41.080
<v Speaker 1>because there's a difference in those forces, effectively, it's like

0:38:41.120 --> 0:38:43.239
<v Speaker 1>the Earth is trying to pull the Moon apart. It

0:38:43.280 --> 0:38:45.680
<v Speaker 1>is and actually squeezes the Moon and makes it a

0:38:45.719 --> 0:38:46.760
<v Speaker 1>little bit like a football.

0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:50.239
<v Speaker 2>And this reminds me of the book Seven Eves.

0:38:50.160 --> 0:38:52.959
<v Speaker 1>Yes exactly, Neil Stevenson's really fun novel about what would

0:38:52.960 --> 0:38:56.400
<v Speaker 1>happen if the Moon was destroyed. And in that novel,

0:38:56.480 --> 0:38:58.439
<v Speaker 1>it's not really much of a spoiler to say it's

0:38:58.640 --> 0:39:02.120
<v Speaker 1>destroyed by some like alien impactor, But in reality, the

0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:04.080
<v Speaker 1>Moon would be destroyed if it got too close to

0:39:04.120 --> 0:39:06.479
<v Speaker 1>the Earth, because the closer you get to the Earth,

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.680
<v Speaker 1>the greater the difference between the forces on your edges,

0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:12.080
<v Speaker 1>and so effectively, the greater the force trying to pull

0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:14.840
<v Speaker 1>you apart, and eventually you approach what we call the

0:39:14.920 --> 0:39:18.440
<v Speaker 1>Roche limit, which is the closest you can get without

0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:21.239
<v Speaker 1>being pulled into little bits, and essentially form a ring,

0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:24.360
<v Speaker 1>and for two objects of equal density of a planet

0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:26.880
<v Speaker 1>and a moon, that radius is about two and a

0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:30.080
<v Speaker 1>half times the radius of the planet, which is actually

0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:33.799
<v Speaker 1>quite close. That would be like eighteen thousand kilometers from

0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:36.960
<v Speaker 1>the center of our planet, but the moon currently is

0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 1>like three hundred and eighty thousand kilometers away, So the

0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:43.600
<v Speaker 1>Moon could get a lot closer and be a lot

0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:46.400
<v Speaker 1>bigger in our sky without being torn into rings.

0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:49.400
<v Speaker 2>I am feeling like I'll sleep better tonight knowing that

0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:51.120
<v Speaker 2>it's not close to the roach limit.

0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:54.600
<v Speaker 1>That's good, not at all. And so if you somehow

0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:56.160
<v Speaker 1>engineered the moon, you put a rocket on it, and

0:39:56.200 --> 0:39:59.040
<v Speaker 1>you brought it in closer to the Earth and all

0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.440
<v Speaker 1>the way to the roach limit, it would be about

0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:05.399
<v Speaker 1>twenty times bigger in the sky than it is currently. Wow, right,

0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:09.160
<v Speaker 1>about ten angular degrees, about the size of one or

0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:11.560
<v Speaker 1>two outstretched hands. It would be pretty big. It would

0:40:11.560 --> 0:40:12.000
<v Speaker 1>be awesome.

0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:14.319
<v Speaker 2>Would that really mess up astronomy because it would be

0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:16.040
<v Speaker 2>all right, so Daniel and I both have our hands

0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:18.279
<v Speaker 2>out stretched right now and we're looking at that. Yeah,

0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:19.920
<v Speaker 2>So how bad would that be for astronomy?

0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:23.440
<v Speaker 1>That would be pretty bad because it would make moonlit

0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:27.840
<v Speaker 1>nights much brighter, right, you'd have much more powerful moonshadows.

0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:31.719
<v Speaker 1>And already moonlit nights are bad for astronomy because that's

0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:34.120
<v Speaker 1>light pollution. Right, It's like having a big light in

0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:36.279
<v Speaker 1>the sky. It's like a second sun. You are reflecting

0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:38.680
<v Speaker 1>the sun, a mini version of it. So this would

0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:41.560
<v Speaker 1>be twenty times as powerful, So it would be bad

0:40:41.560 --> 0:40:42.200
<v Speaker 1>for astronomy.

0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:43.799
<v Speaker 2>I thought you were going to say moonlit nights are

0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:46.480
<v Speaker 2>bad for astronomers because they're not very romantic or something

0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:50.160
<v Speaker 2>like that, because the rest of us love moonlit nights.

0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, a moonlit night is romantic because the light is dim, right,

0:40:53.640 --> 0:40:55.440
<v Speaker 1>It's like why you turn down the lights to make

0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:58.799
<v Speaker 1>them romantic. And so at some point cranking that thing

0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.120
<v Speaker 1>up by factor twenty no longer as romantic.

0:41:01.320 --> 0:41:03.799
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, I could see that. You're gonna need much

0:41:03.840 --> 0:41:04.560
<v Speaker 2>better curtains.

0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but let's do a little bit more engineering to

0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.200
<v Speaker 1>try to make this bigger. What if we didn't just

0:41:10.360 --> 0:41:12.720
<v Speaker 1>use our moon. What if we took a bigger object,

0:41:12.760 --> 0:41:15.919
<v Speaker 1>Like what if we somehow pulled Mars into our orbit,

0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:18.279
<v Speaker 1>then we used it as a second moon, and we

0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:22.000
<v Speaker 1>brought it in just outside Mars's roach limit. Well, that

0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:24.799
<v Speaker 1>would be about twice as big in the sky as

0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:27.160
<v Speaker 1>the Moon at the roach limit, because Mars is bigger

0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:29.600
<v Speaker 1>than the moon, so it'd be about forty times the

0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:32.760
<v Speaker 1>size our moon currently is in the sky, an angular

0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:34.360
<v Speaker 1>distance of about twenty degrees.

0:41:34.800 --> 0:41:36.439
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's just that I grew up with the Moon

0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:39.080
<v Speaker 2>being so far away, but I'd feel like a little crowded,

0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:41.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, like you need to give me some space. Mars.

0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:43.479
<v Speaker 2>You're getting too close. You're kind of freaking me out.

0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.040
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, then you're not gonna like the next scenario.

0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.479
<v Speaker 1>I did a calculation to try to think about how

0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:53.160
<v Speaker 1>close you could bring any object, forget the Moon, forget Mars.

0:41:53.160 --> 0:41:55.880
<v Speaker 1>What if we're engineering something that we want to fill

0:41:55.960 --> 0:41:58.239
<v Speaker 1>our sky and you could make it out of some

0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:03.200
<v Speaker 1>natural material. Roach limit depends on density, because something that's

0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:05.680
<v Speaker 1>denser holds itself together better. So if you make it,

0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:08.120
<v Speaker 1>for example, out of iron, you can get it closer.

0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:10.440
<v Speaker 1>But then iron is also denser, and so the object

0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:12.960
<v Speaker 1>becomes smaller, so it doesn't take up as much in

0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:16.319
<v Speaker 1>the sky. So I imagined, what if we had a

0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:20.440
<v Speaker 1>object the mass of the Earth, And my calculation suggests

0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:22.439
<v Speaker 1>that if you make it about three times as dense

0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:25.960
<v Speaker 1>as the Earth, so use like pure iron. Then its

0:42:26.120 --> 0:42:28.680
<v Speaker 1>roch limit would be about one and a half times

0:42:28.680 --> 0:42:32.040
<v Speaker 1>the Earth's radius. And this new moon we build because

0:42:32.080 --> 0:42:34.160
<v Speaker 1>it's denser than the Earth but it still has the

0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:37.560
<v Speaker 1>same mass, would have a radius of about one half

0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:40.560
<v Speaker 1>of the Earth's radius. So this thing would be orbiting

0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:42.080
<v Speaker 1>just above the ground.

0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:44.680
<v Speaker 2>What just above the Earth?

0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:47.960
<v Speaker 1>Just above the ground on Earth, you'd have to like

0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:49.239
<v Speaker 1>duck as this thing goes by.

0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:51.399
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's no way to live.

0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:56.279
<v Speaker 1>But you know, and these are simplified calculations that we're

0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:59.560
<v Speaker 1>really pushing to the extreme. We're assuming that the Roch

0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:03.040
<v Speaker 1>limit formula applies here, and I'm not sure it really does.

0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:06.120
<v Speaker 1>And of course, you know you've got any mountains, those

0:43:06.120 --> 0:43:11.600
<v Speaker 1>are gonna get rubbed right off. But about your answer. Sure,

0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:13.480
<v Speaker 1>So if you're out there and you have an earth

0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:17.040
<v Speaker 1>mass worth of iron, and you're thinking about building this

0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:19.840
<v Speaker 1>moon and having an orbit just above the surface, you

0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:22.319
<v Speaker 1>should know that I only give you my ninety five

0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:25.000
<v Speaker 1>percent guarantee, which is my highest guarantee, by the way,

0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:28.120
<v Speaker 1>But if you did this, it would fill half the sky.

0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Please don't listen to Daniel. Everyone look at he would

0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:34.680
<v Speaker 2>sell us all out to the aliens if it would

0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:38.080
<v Speaker 2>explain gravity, like, absolutely, we can't depend on Daniel for

0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:39.800
<v Speaker 2>our safety, everyone.

0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Ninety five percent, you can't. Now you can also imagine

0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:47.600
<v Speaker 1>the opposite scenario. What if you're on the Moon, right,

0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:50.840
<v Speaker 1>and you're not on the planet. So in our Solar system,

0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:52.840
<v Speaker 1>if you were to land on Io and look up

0:43:52.880 --> 0:43:57.560
<v Speaker 1>at Jupiter in the sky, it already fills twenty angular degrees, right,

0:43:57.960 --> 0:43:59.960
<v Speaker 1>that's the size we're talking about of having like Mars

0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:03.400
<v Speaker 1>in our sky. So that's already the case. Jupiter is

0:44:03.560 --> 0:44:06.759
<v Speaker 1>huge in the sky above Io, and in comparison, like

0:44:06.800 --> 0:44:09.000
<v Speaker 1>if you're on Titus, Saturn is only like five and

0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.560
<v Speaker 1>a half degrees, which is still big, right, a lot

0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:14.400
<v Speaker 1>bigger than the Moon is in our sky, but not

0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:16.840
<v Speaker 1>as dramatic. But I calculated what would happen if you

0:44:16.920 --> 0:44:20.319
<v Speaker 1>brought Io close to its roch limit with Jupiter, and

0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.759
<v Speaker 1>then it would be like sixty degrees in the sky,

0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:26.520
<v Speaker 1>So that would be like, wow, what of you a Jupiter? Right?

0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:29.120
<v Speaker 1>And then if you made Io out of like something

0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:33.000
<v Speaker 1>incredibly tough like diamond, it could get much closer without

0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:36.200
<v Speaker 1>being torn apart. So the roach limit depends on what

0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:38.399
<v Speaker 1>the object is made out of. And then you could

0:44:38.440 --> 0:44:41.120
<v Speaker 1>get Jupiter to be ninety five degrees across in the

0:44:41.160 --> 0:44:44.520
<v Speaker 1>sky before it's going to tear apart your diamond.

0:44:44.320 --> 0:44:47.799
<v Speaker 2>Moon hotly cow. I mean, you'd be dead long before that,

0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:48.880
<v Speaker 2>but wow.

0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:53.360
<v Speaker 1>What a way to go, right way to go. You'd

0:44:53.400 --> 0:44:57.120
<v Speaker 1>be sitting on your diamond Moon, sipping super clean water

0:44:57.160 --> 0:45:00.879
<v Speaker 1>from your waste water treatment facility, watching torn play out

0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:02.000
<v Speaker 1>on the surface of Jupiter.

0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:04.799
<v Speaker 2>You know what that sounds. If you've got to go,

0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:07.440
<v Speaker 2>that's high up there on my list of ways to go.

0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:10.200
<v Speaker 1>And this episode will have prepared you to understand the

0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:11.840
<v Speaker 1>science of each of those elements.

0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:13.400
<v Speaker 2>That's right, You're welcome.

0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:16.120
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, let's hear if Joe is satisfied with

0:45:16.239 --> 0:45:19.000
<v Speaker 1>our answer to his science fiction inspired question.

0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:21.480
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much Daniel and Kelly for that answer.

0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:24.480
<v Speaker 5>It will please you and other listeners to know that

0:45:24.520 --> 0:45:27.120
<v Speaker 5>I do not have an Earth's massive iron ready to

0:45:27.120 --> 0:45:30.279
<v Speaker 5>put in dangerously close orbit. While giant objects in the

0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:32.759
<v Speaker 5>sky may look pretty epic, sounds like for all our

0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:36.520
<v Speaker 5>survival better, they remain comfortably distant. I guess the first

0:45:36.600 --> 0:45:39.040
<v Speaker 5>human on Aisle will have quite the view. But for

0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:41.759
<v Speaker 5>those of us remaining earthbound. I'm so eager for that

0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:45.880
<v Speaker 5>binary sunset portrait, so alien engineers, when you have a moment,

0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:49.319
<v Speaker 5>that'd be great. Thank you again and keep looking up.

0:45:56.480 --> 0:45:59.200
<v Speaker 2>All right. Well, thank you everyone who submitted questions. If

0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:01.000
<v Speaker 2>you'd like to ask ask us a question, you can

0:46:01.040 --> 0:46:03.839
<v Speaker 2>write us at questions at Daniel and Kelly dot org,

0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:06.719
<v Speaker 2>or you can join us on our discord channel. You

0:46:06.719 --> 0:46:10.080
<v Speaker 2>can find an invitation to our discord channel at danielant

0:46:10.120 --> 0:46:13.200
<v Speaker 2>Kelly dot org, or you could send us a message

0:46:13.239 --> 0:46:16.040
<v Speaker 2>to our social media pages. Although answers there are slightly

0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.440
<v Speaker 2>less reliable, so I suggest email or discord.

0:46:19.600 --> 0:46:22.120
<v Speaker 1>We really do reply to every email. People continue to

0:46:22.160 --> 0:46:25.160
<v Speaker 1>be shocked when we actually replied. We will write back

0:46:25.200 --> 0:46:27.839
<v Speaker 1>to you with an answer to your question. Try it.

0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Yep. We love hearing from y'all.

0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Thanks everyone, have a great day and stay curious.