1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:24,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,156 --> 00:00:27,836 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,276 --> 00:00:32,396 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Today our show is just a little 4 00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:36,196 Speaker 1: bit different because we're going to explore a story behind 5 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:38,836 Speaker 1: the story in the news. But the story in the 6 00:00:38,876 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 1: news is just the basic idea of crisis. In recent weeks, 7 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:46,716 Speaker 1: the United States has felt like a nation in crisis, 8 00:00:47,316 --> 00:00:50,876 Speaker 1: and then that national crisis is repeated out at the 9 00:00:50,956 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 1: individual level for hundreds or thousands, or maybe even millions 10 00:00:55,396 --> 00:00:59,356 Speaker 1: of people, each of whom is struggling with the core 11 00:00:59,476 --> 00:01:03,676 Speaker 1: questions of how to live, to talk about crises, and 12 00:01:03,916 --> 00:01:07,876 Speaker 1: how we can draw on the resources of spirituality to 13 00:01:07,916 --> 00:01:13,516 Speaker 1: address them. I'm joined today by Professor Michael Alexander. Professor 14 00:01:13,556 --> 00:01:17,396 Speaker 1: Alexander is a professor of Religious Studies at the University 15 00:01:17,396 --> 00:01:21,836 Speaker 1: of California, Riverside, and he's the author of an extraordinary 16 00:01:21,956 --> 00:01:26,756 Speaker 1: new book called Making Peace with the Universe, Personal Crisis 17 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:30,876 Speaker 1: and Spiritual Healing. I've known Mickey since we were graduate 18 00:01:30,916 --> 00:01:33,996 Speaker 1: students together, and I had the pleasure and the privilege 19 00:01:34,076 --> 00:01:37,396 Speaker 1: of hearing him talk through and work on the ideas 20 00:01:37,436 --> 00:01:41,316 Speaker 1: that went into this book for years. When the book 21 00:01:41,436 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 1: finally emerged. It moved me tremendously. It's written accessibly, it's 22 00:01:47,316 --> 00:01:50,676 Speaker 1: written beautifully, and it's written in a way that can 23 00:01:50,716 --> 00:01:55,396 Speaker 1: affect the reader at an individual, personal level. In other words, 24 00:01:55,716 --> 00:02:04,476 Speaker 1: it's nothing like an academic book usually is. Mickey, Thank 25 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:06,316 Speaker 1: you so much for being here for me. This is 26 00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:09,836 Speaker 1: like the culmination of a little dream to get you 27 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:13,156 Speaker 1: onto this podcast to talk about this amazing book and 28 00:02:13,196 --> 00:02:15,356 Speaker 1: making peace with the universe. So first of all, just 29 00:02:15,436 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 1: thank you for doing it, and thank you for being here. Yes, 30 00:02:17,836 --> 00:02:19,876 Speaker 1: you've been involved with this for a long time. I 31 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:22,996 Speaker 1: cried on your shoulder many nights trying to figure this 32 00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:25,316 Speaker 1: thing out, and it's great to finally see it in 33 00:02:25,356 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 1: the world. Your book starts with a crisis, and then 34 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:32,476 Speaker 1: it's going to give us more people's crises, but it 35 00:02:32,556 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 1: starts with a crisis of your own, and the crisis 36 00:02:36,476 --> 00:02:40,036 Speaker 1: takes place on Sardinia, which you call a playground for 37 00:02:40,116 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 1: Europe's richest people, which is not the obvious place for 38 00:02:42,796 --> 00:02:46,916 Speaker 1: a crisis. But maybe start, if you would, by telling 39 00:02:46,956 --> 00:02:50,796 Speaker 1: the listeners what that crisis was, because that will help 40 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:55,196 Speaker 1: us understand why you wrote the book. The original inspiration 41 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: for the book is older than the crisis. I've been 42 00:02:57,996 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: teaching religion and religious studies now for twenty years and 43 00:03:02,716 --> 00:03:06,316 Speaker 1: have been studying it professionally for thirty. And I got 44 00:03:06,356 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 1: my first job at the University of Oklahoma in nineteen 45 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:13,436 Speaker 1: ninety nine, having moved there from the East Coast. And 46 00:03:13,676 --> 00:03:16,236 Speaker 1: I turned on the radio and I heard this song, 47 00:03:16,436 --> 00:03:18,836 Speaker 1: a country song that I'd never heard before, because I'd 48 00:03:18,836 --> 00:03:21,596 Speaker 1: never really listened to country music before. And it was 49 00:03:21,716 --> 00:03:25,796 Speaker 1: by this supergroup called the Highwaymen, and it had Willie 50 00:03:25,796 --> 00:03:30,236 Speaker 1: Nelson and cut Johnny Cash. The song is about the 51 00:03:30,316 --> 00:03:34,036 Speaker 1: spirit of adventure. The first verse is sung by Willie 52 00:03:34,076 --> 00:03:36,356 Speaker 1: Nelson and it's about a pirate on the seas, and 53 00:03:36,356 --> 00:03:39,236 Speaker 1: the second verse is about some kind of other adventurer. 54 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:41,436 Speaker 1: And I got in my head that someday I would 55 00:03:41,436 --> 00:03:44,836 Speaker 1: like to write a book about the spirit of spiritual adventure. 56 00:03:45,036 --> 00:03:49,276 Speaker 1: And it just sat there for ten years, and then 57 00:03:49,956 --> 00:03:53,356 Speaker 1: I came to my own crisis. As it were, I 58 00:03:53,396 --> 00:03:57,476 Speaker 1: was having family trouble. It was nothing exceptional, in fact, 59 00:03:57,516 --> 00:04:01,636 Speaker 1: it was just sort of very typical domestic chaos. But 60 00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:05,876 Speaker 1: I did wonder, after all these years of studying about 61 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:07,556 Speaker 1: the care of the soul, how come I wasn't able 62 00:04:07,596 --> 00:04:09,876 Speaker 1: to sort of take care of my own. And at 63 00:04:09,876 --> 00:04:12,356 Speaker 1: that exact moment, I was called upon by a good 64 00:04:12,396 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 1: friend who was getting married on the island of Stardenia, 65 00:04:15,556 --> 00:04:19,356 Speaker 1: to say some words at his wedding. And I didn't 66 00:04:19,356 --> 00:04:22,396 Speaker 1: have anything to say. I was on the airplane, I 67 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:24,836 Speaker 1: had a yellow pad in front of me that was 68 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:28,636 Speaker 1: completely empty of any notes to say about the reality 69 00:04:28,716 --> 00:04:33,036 Speaker 1: of marriage. And off I went to try to say 70 00:04:33,076 --> 00:04:36,516 Speaker 1: something to these people. While I myself was contemplating getting 71 00:04:36,516 --> 00:04:40,716 Speaker 1: out of my own up on the dais, a verse 72 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:44,116 Speaker 1: from the Upanishads returned to me, and that's what I 73 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 1: talked about. And the verse is a fascinating verse from 74 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:52,436 Speaker 1: the Kathopanishad, which is a very old text roughly the 75 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:55,876 Speaker 1: period of the Hebrew Bible, and it's the story about 76 00:04:55,916 --> 00:04:58,676 Speaker 1: a person who was given a favor or a gift 77 00:04:58,716 --> 00:05:01,996 Speaker 1: by the gods. They're given the opportunity to ask death 78 00:05:02,716 --> 00:05:06,516 Speaker 1: any question that you could possibly think of, and so 79 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:09,876 Speaker 1: the person who's given the gift thinks through what would 80 00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:11,476 Speaker 1: you ask of death? What would you ask of the 81 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:14,356 Speaker 1: entity that has seen the course of every life and 82 00:05:14,676 --> 00:05:17,076 Speaker 1: knows what a life amounts to? And he asks the 83 00:05:17,196 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 1: question essentially, is there anything in life that is ever 84 00:05:21,356 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 1: feels like you amounted to anything? Is there anything that's 85 00:05:24,396 --> 00:05:30,676 Speaker 1: worth doing? That's the question. Death responds with a verse 86 00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:35,236 Speaker 1: which is very terse or succinct, and the verse is 87 00:05:35,916 --> 00:05:38,756 Speaker 1: there is a path of pleasure and there is a 88 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:43,596 Speaker 1: path of joy. Both attract the soul or a person. 89 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:47,436 Speaker 1: Those who seek joy come to find it, and those 90 00:05:47,476 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 1: who seek pleasure never come to the end. That's the 91 00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:53,076 Speaker 1: verse that I quoted for him, and then said a 92 00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:55,556 Speaker 1: little couple of words about it, and then got off 93 00:05:55,596 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: the dais and was completely mortified that I'd said something 94 00:05:59,436 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 1: inscrutable and meaningless at my friend's wedding. But afterwards people 95 00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:08,116 Speaker 1: came up to me and we talked about it, and 96 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:11,596 Speaker 1: I reali that I needed to look more at the 97 00:06:11,676 --> 00:06:15,156 Speaker 1: classic sources that for so long I had treated as 98 00:06:15,156 --> 00:06:21,596 Speaker 1: a scholar but had not treated for my own journey, essentially, 99 00:06:21,676 --> 00:06:24,236 Speaker 1: and so I made on the island of Stardiny, I 100 00:06:24,276 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 1: made this kind of pact with myself to put all 101 00:06:26,836 --> 00:06:29,796 Speaker 1: my other research on hold, and to start to relook 102 00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:34,516 Speaker 1: at all the verses and aphorisms and myths and rituals, 103 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:36,516 Speaker 1: everything that I'd ever looked at as though I was 104 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:39,796 Speaker 1: kind of a zookeeper at the zoo watching other people, 105 00:06:40,196 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 1: and I realized that in fact I was I needed 106 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:46,516 Speaker 1: to help myself, and so that began this journey, which 107 00:06:46,516 --> 00:06:48,356 Speaker 1: turned out it would be a ten year journey in 108 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:51,236 Speaker 1: which I had started to very deeply look into those sources. 109 00:06:51,636 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 1: Not as an academic, although it's academically solid and actually 110 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:59,756 Speaker 1: all accurate, but really for me, there's something about being 111 00:06:59,756 --> 00:07:04,116 Speaker 1: an academic that kind of splits us into two parts. 112 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,396 Speaker 1: Even if we study something that's about the human condition, 113 00:07:07,716 --> 00:07:09,596 Speaker 1: like you do, you say, a religious study, what could 114 00:07:09,596 --> 00:07:11,676 Speaker 1: be more fundamentally about the human condition or about the 115 00:07:11,716 --> 00:07:15,436 Speaker 1: relationship of the human to the divine, We nevertheless get 116 00:07:15,516 --> 00:07:23,516 Speaker 1: so trained in thinking about history, sociology, philosophy, anthropology that 117 00:07:23,636 --> 00:07:26,596 Speaker 1: we tend to split what we're studying apart from our 118 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 1: actual individual daily lives. And I think, in some ways 119 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:33,676 Speaker 1: what's so fascinating to me about your whole project here 120 00:07:33,676 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 1: and about the book that came out of it, is 121 00:07:35,996 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: that standing there in Sardinia, you had the realization that 122 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:44,196 Speaker 1: there's no point in doing all of this scholarship and 123 00:07:44,236 --> 00:07:47,876 Speaker 1: study about the human condition if we can't turn it 124 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:50,996 Speaker 1: to ourselves and apply it to ourselves. And I think 125 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:53,476 Speaker 1: a lot of academics response to that would be no, no, 126 00:07:53,556 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 1: don't don't go there and make you step back. It's 127 00:07:56,396 --> 00:07:59,436 Speaker 1: too hard and it'll be too hard to be objective. 128 00:08:00,756 --> 00:08:03,876 Speaker 1: Why did you in that moment think no, I gotta 129 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:05,396 Speaker 1: take it the other way. I've got to do the 130 00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:07,796 Speaker 1: thing that actually non academics imagine we're all doing all 131 00:08:07,796 --> 00:08:09,916 Speaker 1: the time, namely, if we're looking for the answers to 132 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:12,396 Speaker 1: the world's questions, try to look for those answers to 133 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 1: use them for ourselves. Well, I can't answer the question 134 00:08:16,236 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 1: in the arena of the law or in the arena 135 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:21,836 Speaker 1: of medicine, where somebody can potentially die on the operating 136 00:08:21,836 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 1: table as a result of kind of a method that 137 00:08:24,756 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 1: is unorthodox. But I think I'm liberated by the fact 138 00:08:28,516 --> 00:08:31,916 Speaker 1: that it is religious studies and that if somebody should 139 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:34,596 Speaker 1: fail one of my classes, nobody dies on the operating table. 140 00:08:34,716 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 1: Besides the marital aspect of it. I did have kind 141 00:08:37,316 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 1: of a crisis regarding what am I doing teaching religion, 142 00:08:41,516 --> 00:08:43,956 Speaker 1: because so much of it, as you're well aware from 143 00:08:43,996 --> 00:08:47,076 Speaker 1: your own work, is you know, just the crassest justifications 144 00:08:47,116 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 1: of nationalism and sexism and racism, and so I would 145 00:08:50,636 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: be standing up in front of my students sort of thinking, 146 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 1: what is the value here? Why are we studying all 147 00:08:55,996 --> 00:08:59,276 Speaker 1: of this old stuff? And it became clear to me 148 00:08:59,396 --> 00:09:02,356 Speaker 1: that for myself it was the value of it was 149 00:09:02,396 --> 00:09:06,436 Speaker 1: in the arena of therapy, personal therapy. And that's actually 150 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 1: I came to the insight in reading and teaching all 151 00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:13,516 Speaker 1: these confessions confessional literature for so many years. I realized 152 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:16,916 Speaker 1: that most of the great confessions, from Augustine down to 153 00:09:16,996 --> 00:09:19,756 Speaker 1: the present, to Tulstoy or whoever else, had been the 154 00:09:19,796 --> 00:09:22,756 Speaker 1: result of somebody having a personal freak out in their lives. 155 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:26,716 Speaker 1: And because religion had been the form for therapy before 156 00:09:26,876 --> 00:09:29,996 Speaker 1: there was modern therapy, people turned to it when they 157 00:09:29,996 --> 00:09:31,876 Speaker 1: had nowhere else to turn to, when they needed to 158 00:09:31,916 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 1: take one step forward. And I just realized that all 159 00:09:35,956 --> 00:09:40,356 Speaker 1: of these confessions were, in fact, case histories of spiritual therapy, 160 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:44,716 Speaker 1: as it were. But I came to that realization actually 161 00:09:44,756 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 1: as somebody who was seeking. In other words, when I 162 00:09:46,676 --> 00:09:49,556 Speaker 1: was reading Augustine, I wanted to figure out how he'd 163 00:09:49,796 --> 00:09:52,236 Speaker 1: figured out his life so I could figure out my life. 164 00:09:52,276 --> 00:09:55,636 Speaker 1: When I read Tulstoy's Confessions, I was doing the same thing. 165 00:09:55,956 --> 00:09:58,476 Speaker 1: I stopped reading it as a third person and I 166 00:09:58,516 --> 00:10:01,676 Speaker 1: started reading the stuff as though it were self helped literature, 167 00:10:01,796 --> 00:10:05,036 Speaker 1: because I think that's what it was the fastest growing 168 00:10:05,116 --> 00:10:09,036 Speaker 1: category of quote unquote religious affiliation in the United States. 169 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:12,276 Speaker 1: Its people who say, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. And 170 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 1: it really strikes me that your book is partly about 171 00:10:14,996 --> 00:10:17,596 Speaker 1: how there's really no difference between those things. I mean, 172 00:10:17,676 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 1: in the end, the religious traditions were all designed from 173 00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:25,756 Speaker 1: the beginning to address spirituality, and the people you write 174 00:10:25,756 --> 00:10:28,956 Speaker 1: about in your book are on spiritual journeys. I mean, 175 00:10:28,996 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 1: what we have is people tend to associate with religion 176 00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:36,236 Speaker 1: the institutionalism of it, and that's not why your book 177 00:10:36,316 --> 00:10:37,956 Speaker 1: is about at all. And that's not what the book 178 00:10:38,036 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 1: is about at all. And I felt liberated and sort 179 00:10:40,156 --> 00:10:43,676 Speaker 1: of going to the spiritual because there were precedents, and 180 00:10:43,716 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: the greatest precedent was actually the founder of American psychology 181 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:50,836 Speaker 1: and the founder of American religious studies, William James, who 182 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:53,676 Speaker 1: himself had gone through a tough marriage and he was 183 00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 1: in his late thirties early forties, had never published a book. 184 00:10:56,956 --> 00:11:00,196 Speaker 1: He was up at Harvard near your offices, sucking down 185 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:03,556 Speaker 1: nitrous oxide canisters in his office and calling it research. 186 00:11:03,636 --> 00:11:06,636 Speaker 1: He was in a bad way, and he started to 187 00:11:07,196 --> 00:11:10,716 Speaker 1: return to some of the spiritual masters that he had 188 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:13,996 Speaker 1: read about it in his youth more seriously, and the 189 00:11:14,076 --> 00:11:16,836 Speaker 1: result of that work was The Varieties of Religious Experience, 190 00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:19,916 Speaker 1: which you published in the early part of the twentieth century, 191 00:11:19,916 --> 00:11:22,636 Speaker 1: and it really turned his life around. So he makes 192 00:11:22,676 --> 00:11:26,916 Speaker 1: a distinction about religion as an institutional function and religion 193 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:29,476 Speaker 1: as a person or private function. And I think a 194 00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:31,236 Speaker 1: lot of my colleagues have a lot of problem with 195 00:11:31,316 --> 00:11:34,276 Speaker 1: putting those blinders on it, and I do too, because 196 00:11:34,676 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: I think that if you're missing the nationalism and the 197 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:39,596 Speaker 1: sexism and the racism and all of that, you're missing 198 00:11:39,996 --> 00:11:43,796 Speaker 1: a lot about how religion functions. Nevertheless, I still felt 199 00:11:43,796 --> 00:11:46,676 Speaker 1: this spiritual curiosity, and I felt that there was this 200 00:11:46,836 --> 00:11:52,316 Speaker 1: essential thing driving people to either religion or spirituality that 201 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:55,836 Speaker 1: was not simply them getting pushed around by power politics. 202 00:11:56,436 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: That was people looking for something, and I was looking 203 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:04,476 Speaker 1: for something. Let's turn now make you too the thing 204 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 1: you found. And of course this is part of why 205 00:12:07,876 --> 00:12:10,716 Speaker 1: people should read the book. But I'd like for listeners 206 00:12:10,716 --> 00:12:15,396 Speaker 1: to get a flavor of your core observation, the thing 207 00:12:15,436 --> 00:12:20,036 Speaker 1: you found in the different spiritual traditions that you explored, 208 00:12:20,916 --> 00:12:23,996 Speaker 1: each of which, in one way or another, picks up 209 00:12:24,476 --> 00:12:27,636 Speaker 1: on the idea that you began with, the idea that 210 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 1: there's a path of joy and a path of pleasure, 211 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:34,036 Speaker 1: and you can find the path of joy, but the 212 00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:39,156 Speaker 1: path of pleasure has no end. That insight simply rang 213 00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:42,196 Speaker 1: true to me, meaning that when I thought about my 214 00:12:42,236 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 1: own life and instances of pleasure, I thought about all 215 00:12:44,996 --> 00:12:48,476 Speaker 1: the conquests of Saturday night, that Sunday morning receded into 216 00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 1: darkness and blackness, and you know, all the times that 217 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:54,716 Speaker 1: I was on an internet browser, you know, in four 218 00:12:54,756 --> 00:12:57,076 Speaker 1: hours later getting up and asking myself what kind of 219 00:12:57,076 --> 00:13:00,036 Speaker 1: a black hole was I just down? In other words, 220 00:13:00,076 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 1: there it felt like a path with no end. And 221 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 1: then I thought about other episodes in my life in 222 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:10,956 Speaker 1: which they seemed edifying, the episodes that I would call joyful, 223 00:13:10,996 --> 00:13:13,396 Speaker 1: and even the words seemed old fashioned to make joy, 224 00:13:13,476 --> 00:13:16,276 Speaker 1: who even uses it? But the episodes that I would 225 00:13:16,356 --> 00:13:19,636 Speaker 1: use as joyful or think about as joyful had a 226 00:13:19,716 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 1: kind of edifying aspect to it. And I use the 227 00:13:21,876 --> 00:13:24,676 Speaker 1: word edifice building up. It meant that after you did 228 00:13:24,796 --> 00:13:27,836 Speaker 1: that behavior, you felt like you built yourself up, like 229 00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:30,556 Speaker 1: there was something left standing after you had done it, 230 00:13:30,756 --> 00:13:33,916 Speaker 1: which was so different from pursuits of pleasure, where they 231 00:13:33,956 --> 00:13:38,036 Speaker 1: almost receded while you're doing it, if not just shortly thereafter. 232 00:13:38,596 --> 00:13:41,076 Speaker 1: And I started to think about what's the mechanism by 233 00:13:41,116 --> 00:13:44,916 Speaker 1: which joys are created. Both of these are flavors of happiness. 234 00:13:44,956 --> 00:13:47,676 Speaker 1: They're also deeply related to one another. One can enjoy 235 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:53,036 Speaker 1: pleasures in a joyful aspect, even something as basic as 236 00:13:53,076 --> 00:13:57,036 Speaker 1: sexual relations done within the context of a meaningful relationship, 237 00:13:57,356 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel empty. It feels like something has been 238 00:13:59,996 --> 00:14:02,996 Speaker 1: edified by the act. So I wanted to get to 239 00:14:03,036 --> 00:14:07,596 Speaker 1: the mechanism of what that was, what transposes pleasures into joys? 240 00:14:08,236 --> 00:14:11,356 Speaker 1: And sometimes when pleasures aren't available, how do you have 241 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:14,036 Speaker 1: joys even in the worst and hardest of circumstances, as 242 00:14:14,076 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 1: we all sometimes have to do. It's not just about 243 00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:20,396 Speaker 1: chasing pleasures. Sometimes you're alone with your best friend in 244 00:14:20,396 --> 00:14:24,436 Speaker 1: a hospital gurney and they're passing away, and so those 245 00:14:24,516 --> 00:14:28,396 Speaker 1: moments that have these intense feelings of connection that are 246 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 1: not necessarily related to pleasures but sort of give you 247 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 1: a kind of they throw you into a spiritual mood. 248 00:14:36,116 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 1: I wanted to find out how that happened, and I 249 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:42,556 Speaker 1: read the sources, and it was pretty clear to me 250 00:14:42,596 --> 00:14:45,356 Speaker 1: that the obvious statement that we talked about before was 251 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:48,516 Speaker 1: the mechanism that made all those things happen, which is 252 00:14:48,556 --> 00:14:50,876 Speaker 1: that religion was the forum, or is the forum in 253 00:14:50,876 --> 00:14:53,916 Speaker 1: which people thinking about the weight of the world. And 254 00:14:54,156 --> 00:14:56,436 Speaker 1: when I gave myself over to the fact that the 255 00:14:56,476 --> 00:15:00,156 Speaker 1: world has weight and meaning at all, that's when the 256 00:15:00,236 --> 00:15:04,916 Speaker 1: joy started to arise. What I heard you saying was 257 00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:08,436 Speaker 1: that when you feel the weight of the world on you, 258 00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:13,116 Speaker 1: that the key thing to be able to do is 259 00:15:13,196 --> 00:15:18,316 Speaker 1: to embrace the idea that the world has meaning, and 260 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:21,836 Speaker 1: by doing that, you're able to give what you call 261 00:15:21,916 --> 00:15:26,276 Speaker 1: in the book, giving your assent to the universe instead 262 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:30,276 Speaker 1: of fighting back against it, to be at peace with 263 00:15:30,356 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 1: the weight that the world has on you. And so 264 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 1: what I wanted to ask you about that because that 265 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:37,156 Speaker 1: feels to me like it's very close to the heart 266 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:40,916 Speaker 1: of your proposal in the book, very close to what 267 00:15:40,916 --> 00:15:45,076 Speaker 1: you've derived from these religious traditions. For me, sometimes when 268 00:15:45,116 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 1: I'm feeling that weight, the weight of the world, that's 269 00:15:48,476 --> 00:15:51,516 Speaker 1: exactly when it's hardest to believe that the world does 270 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:53,836 Speaker 1: have meaning. But I heard you to be saying the 271 00:15:53,916 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 1: key is acknowledged that the world has meaning. But for 272 00:15:56,956 --> 00:15:59,476 Speaker 1: me at least, that's often the hardest part. So what's 273 00:15:59,476 --> 00:16:02,356 Speaker 1: the trick, as it were? How does one move from 274 00:16:02,436 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 1: feeling the weight of the world to thinking, well, the 275 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,796 Speaker 1: weight of the world does have meaning, and through that meaning, 276 00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:12,876 Speaker 1: I give my assent to the universe. Weight and gravity 277 00:16:12,876 --> 00:16:15,276 Speaker 1: are a metaphor that I use, the reason being that 278 00:16:15,316 --> 00:16:17,916 Speaker 1: there's no language that can really pin it down. I 279 00:16:17,956 --> 00:16:20,956 Speaker 1: avoid the word meaning because I'm not sure that joyful 280 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: moments necessarily have meaning. In other words, I just remember 281 00:16:26,476 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: when my kids were young, there was an episode in 282 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:30,796 Speaker 1: which my youngest, who might have been three or four 283 00:16:30,836 --> 00:16:33,756 Speaker 1: at the time, took a piece of saran wrap and 284 00:16:33,836 --> 00:16:36,276 Speaker 1: pulled it over the toilet bowl as a trap for 285 00:16:36,316 --> 00:16:38,876 Speaker 1: the next person who would use the toilet, and when 286 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:41,796 Speaker 1: I saw it, I felt joy. Now, I don't know 287 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 1: what the meaning of the situation was, but I don't 288 00:16:45,396 --> 00:16:47,796 Speaker 1: think it had significance beyond the fact that the little 289 00:16:47,836 --> 00:16:50,596 Speaker 1: kid was playing a trick. And yet there was something 290 00:16:50,716 --> 00:16:53,236 Speaker 1: that about the act that made the world feel like 291 00:16:53,276 --> 00:16:56,156 Speaker 1: it was revolving on well oiled hinges, that I was 292 00:16:56,276 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 1: at one with a universe that was okay. Sometimes that 293 00:17:00,316 --> 00:17:05,076 Speaker 1: occurs in very hard circumstances. I used the word gravitoss 294 00:17:05,196 --> 00:17:09,636 Speaker 1: or gravity, because the idea of it is that things 295 00:17:09,716 --> 00:17:12,116 Speaker 1: feel like they have weight. I mean, things feel like 296 00:17:12,236 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: people are born and people die, and these things matter, 297 00:17:15,556 --> 00:17:18,956 Speaker 1: and that when I fall into the trap of thinking 298 00:17:18,956 --> 00:17:21,596 Speaker 1: that these things don't matter, that's usually when my own 299 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:26,436 Speaker 1: pain and agonies are actually exacerbated and are the worst. 300 00:17:26,796 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 1: In other words, if one went ahead and tried to 301 00:17:29,116 --> 00:17:32,756 Speaker 1: do something about those difficulties in the world and embrace 302 00:17:32,836 --> 00:17:35,996 Speaker 1: them as important or everything about it the world is important, 303 00:17:36,436 --> 00:17:39,476 Speaker 1: that's when the joys came. So it seemed to me 304 00:17:39,516 --> 00:17:43,156 Speaker 1: it was emotion. It was an emotional response as opposed 305 00:17:43,196 --> 00:17:49,036 Speaker 1: to an intellectual one, meaning that recognizing just the reality 306 00:17:49,076 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 1: that I feel that the world and things in't matter, 307 00:17:52,116 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 1: started to feel good. Why do you think that your 308 00:17:56,756 --> 00:17:59,796 Speaker 1: kids prank had this effect on you? I mean it's 309 00:17:59,796 --> 00:18:02,236 Speaker 1: almost like a zen cohon of you know, the surround 310 00:18:02,316 --> 00:18:04,676 Speaker 1: rap or for the toilet pull seed. You know, part 311 00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:07,796 Speaker 1: of me wants to try to analyze it symbolically and 312 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:12,476 Speaker 1: think that it's about out death and that it's about transparency, 313 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:14,596 Speaker 1: and you know, but this is clearly the wrong way 314 00:18:14,596 --> 00:18:17,476 Speaker 1: to go about thinking of this story. The question is 315 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:20,076 Speaker 1: why did it do this for you? Why did it 316 00:18:20,116 --> 00:18:24,516 Speaker 1: give you that feeling of the world having wait in 317 00:18:24,556 --> 00:18:27,716 Speaker 1: a good way? I think because I saw my kid, 318 00:18:27,716 --> 00:18:30,676 Speaker 1: who was two or three years old, participating in joy 319 00:18:30,716 --> 00:18:34,476 Speaker 1: and laughter, and it was a kind of pleasure at 320 00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:37,116 Speaker 1: the fact of watching a young kid come into themselves 321 00:18:37,156 --> 00:18:39,516 Speaker 1: and grow old and watch their intellect developed to the 322 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:41,396 Speaker 1: point that they were ready to set a trap like that. 323 00:18:41,476 --> 00:18:44,676 Speaker 1: It was watching the world turn the way it's supposed to, 324 00:18:44,756 --> 00:18:47,836 Speaker 1: as it were. Something that I find really hard in 325 00:18:47,876 --> 00:18:52,476 Speaker 1: the context of spiritual growth is making the move from 326 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:58,316 Speaker 1: the isolated experience like you're describing, where you have that 327 00:18:58,396 --> 00:19:01,596 Speaker 1: feeling of connection, you have that feeling of the world 328 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 1: doing what it's supposed to do and mattering, and then 329 00:19:07,076 --> 00:19:12,276 Speaker 1: translating that into a dane feeling of well being. Sometimes 330 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 1: I feel very lucky and I am able to experience 331 00:19:15,916 --> 00:19:19,476 Speaker 1: a moment of what you're calling joy, a moment of connection. 332 00:19:20,476 --> 00:19:22,876 Speaker 1: Yet I still find it difficult to, as it were, 333 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 1: regularize that sentiment or make it feel good over time. 334 00:19:28,676 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 1: What are the traditions that you've studied, in the examples 335 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:32,756 Speaker 1: that you've studied, and we're going to turn to some 336 00:19:32,836 --> 00:19:35,196 Speaker 1: of those examples in a moment, What do they say 337 00:19:35,236 --> 00:19:39,356 Speaker 1: about that, about that move from a moment of recognition 338 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 1: to actually being able to live well and in peace 339 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:45,876 Speaker 1: with the universe over time. First of all, it's always 340 00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:48,316 Speaker 1: moment by moment, and you always slip an in and 341 00:19:48,356 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 1: out of it. There's always a tension with seeing a 342 00:19:51,796 --> 00:19:55,516 Speaker 1: meaningless universe in which you only want to run away 343 00:19:55,556 --> 00:20:00,076 Speaker 1: from the problems of it. So it's simple to recognize, 344 00:20:00,236 --> 00:20:03,396 Speaker 1: but it's never easy to do. A regiment of prayer 345 00:20:03,556 --> 00:20:07,476 Speaker 1: is a means by which basically all the traditions remind 346 00:20:07,516 --> 00:20:09,796 Speaker 1: a person to sort of think about how the world 347 00:20:09,836 --> 00:20:12,636 Speaker 1: is turning. There are greater holidays and lesser holidays, but 348 00:20:12,716 --> 00:20:17,076 Speaker 1: typically most traditions really advocate taking a break every couple 349 00:20:17,076 --> 00:20:19,836 Speaker 1: of hours, and for things that you do regularly, such 350 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:22,636 Speaker 1: as wash your hands or take a meal, in which 351 00:20:22,676 --> 00:20:26,956 Speaker 1: it's the time to stop and basically say I appreciate this. 352 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:30,956 Speaker 1: I know the alternative it throws you back into a 353 00:20:30,996 --> 00:20:35,836 Speaker 1: position of gratitude and also of responsibility, by which I 354 00:20:35,876 --> 00:20:38,316 Speaker 1: mean when you recognize the way to the world, you 355 00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:41,676 Speaker 1: realize that your job is to pay it forward. The 356 00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:44,516 Speaker 1: metaphor that I like so much about gravity is that 357 00:20:44,556 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 1: it's not about you, it's about something else. It's about 358 00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:52,196 Speaker 1: throwing in your chips with some function or power that 359 00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:55,636 Speaker 1: is not of just about poor me. And the amazing 360 00:20:55,796 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 1: and ironic aspect of doing it is that almost as 361 00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:04,276 Speaker 1: soon as you stop thinking about poor me and throw 362 00:21:04,516 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: one's focus to things that are more important than me, 363 00:21:09,476 --> 00:21:13,556 Speaker 1: your own therapy or my own therapy was achieved almost instantly. 364 00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 1: A lot of my own self pity really came exactly 365 00:21:18,236 --> 00:21:21,276 Speaker 1: from that poor me, poor me. Not that I don't 366 00:21:21,316 --> 00:21:23,476 Speaker 1: have my own problems, or that other people don't have very, 367 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:27,916 Speaker 1: very substantial problems, but paying it forward is a pretty 368 00:21:27,956 --> 00:21:32,676 Speaker 1: substantial way of digging oneself out of that hole. And 369 00:21:32,716 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 1: I think that the religions really do try to offer 370 00:21:35,596 --> 00:21:50,396 Speaker 1: ritualized opportunities to do that. We'll be right back, Michael. 371 00:21:50,556 --> 00:21:54,396 Speaker 1: In your book, you've got amazing chapters which are sort 372 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:59,356 Speaker 1: of spiritual biographies in miniature of figures who had crises 373 00:21:59,716 --> 00:22:01,916 Speaker 1: and engaged with them. They're all amazing, But I want 374 00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:05,076 Speaker 1: to ask you about two in particular one because it 375 00:22:05,196 --> 00:22:07,156 Speaker 1: was the one that I maybe knew the most about 376 00:22:07,196 --> 00:22:09,476 Speaker 1: to begin with, and I was fascinated by to it, 377 00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:11,516 Speaker 1: and the other because it was the one I knew 378 00:22:11,556 --> 00:22:13,956 Speaker 1: nothing about. So the one I knew a little bit 379 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:18,516 Speaker 1: about was the story of the great Muslim philosopher and 380 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 1: critic of philosophy of Mohammad al Hazali. I wonder if 381 00:22:22,036 --> 00:22:26,316 Speaker 1: you'd start with his tale and what it was about 382 00:22:26,396 --> 00:22:30,076 Speaker 1: his experience that resonated for you. I came across a 383 00:22:30,236 --> 00:22:35,196 Speaker 1: title of his I didn't know anything about him, and 384 00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:38,156 Speaker 1: the title was The Alchemy of Happiness. It was written 385 00:22:38,156 --> 00:22:41,236 Speaker 1: in Persian. It was a Persian pressus of a larger 386 00:22:41,316 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 1: Arabic work that he had been working on for a 387 00:22:44,316 --> 00:22:46,596 Speaker 1: long time. And I didn't know anything about any of them. 388 00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:49,476 Speaker 1: And so I started digging in into who is Ghazzali 389 00:22:49,756 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 1: and what is the Alchemy of Happiness? And I happened 390 00:22:53,116 --> 00:22:57,276 Speaker 1: upon his autobiography, his amazing confession and autobiography The Deliverance 391 00:22:57,796 --> 00:23:01,636 Speaker 1: from Error, And as I read it to be perfectly honest, 392 00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 1: I thought a lot about you because you and I 393 00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:06,836 Speaker 1: go back a long time. I was in graduate school 394 00:23:06,836 --> 00:23:09,756 Speaker 1: with you when you were in law school, and Gazzali 395 00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:12,236 Speaker 1: was a lawyer. He was the top lawyer for the 396 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:16,076 Speaker 1: sultan in a period in which the sultan ran everything 397 00:23:16,196 --> 00:23:19,556 Speaker 1: practically from India to Turkey, and he had a really 398 00:23:19,596 --> 00:23:21,796 Speaker 1: good job. He was the top of the law profession. 399 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:24,356 Speaker 1: The things that he said and the ink strokes of 400 00:23:24,396 --> 00:23:27,996 Speaker 1: his pen really changed lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them. 401 00:23:28,436 --> 00:23:31,116 Speaker 1: And then one day or over a period of a 402 00:23:31,116 --> 00:23:33,996 Speaker 1: couple of weeks, all the top people were dead. There 403 00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 1: was either a coup or bad things happened, and everything 404 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:40,356 Speaker 1: that Gazzali had worked towards and had become a part 405 00:23:40,436 --> 00:23:43,396 Speaker 1: of crashed into the sand, and there was a huge 406 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 1: power vacuum that occurred in the region. And Gazzali didn't 407 00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 1: know what to do. He basically had a Cartesian moment 408 00:23:51,236 --> 00:23:54,356 Speaker 1: of saying, where did we go wrong? How do we 409 00:23:54,436 --> 00:23:58,316 Speaker 1: start this from the beginning, step by step? And were 410 00:23:58,316 --> 00:24:01,676 Speaker 1: there calculations that we achieved that we thought we were 411 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:04,756 Speaker 1: doing in the name of God that in fact read 412 00:24:04,836 --> 00:24:09,316 Speaker 1: to the complete devolution of society? And so he took 413 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:13,756 Speaker 1: a step back. He did whatever responsible adult would do 414 00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:18,276 Speaker 1: in the situation. He runs away. He runs away from 415 00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:22,836 Speaker 1: Baghdad because he's had since he was a kid's spiritual curiosity. 416 00:24:22,956 --> 00:24:26,276 Speaker 1: He'd heard about the Sufi's his whole life. They had 417 00:24:26,316 --> 00:24:28,636 Speaker 1: been on the street corners, he'd heard the things they said. 418 00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:31,516 Speaker 1: They made very little sense to him, but there was 419 00:24:31,596 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 1: something about them that rang like they could be true. 420 00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:37,476 Speaker 1: These simistics the Sufis are the muslimistics. Yeah, yeah, the 421 00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:41,476 Speaker 1: Sufis are the great mystics of Islam. So he took 422 00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 1: the opportunity to go finally, to follow his spiritual curiosity. 423 00:24:46,356 --> 00:24:48,476 Speaker 1: He and a friend go to Damascus, which at the 424 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:51,116 Speaker 1: time was the center of mysticism. It's still a great 425 00:24:51,556 --> 00:24:56,636 Speaker 1: mystical city. Christianity and Islam have great practices from there. 426 00:24:56,916 --> 00:25:00,116 Speaker 1: All the great Sufi texts seem to have been published 427 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 1: from there. So he gets up and he goes there 428 00:25:02,756 --> 00:25:06,516 Speaker 1: to study, and his life is turned around on account 429 00:25:06,556 --> 00:25:10,716 Speaker 1: of it, and he finds grounding, he finds spiritual grounding, 430 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:14,316 Speaker 1: and so he really became my intellectual hero. I mean, 431 00:25:14,356 --> 00:25:17,516 Speaker 1: to this day, I think about Gazzali as the greatest 432 00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:20,116 Speaker 1: of all time, as it were, you know, because of 433 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:23,316 Speaker 1: the bravery of that, because of the bravery of basically 434 00:25:23,716 --> 00:25:26,316 Speaker 1: being at the top of your profession, feeling like you're 435 00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:29,116 Speaker 1: not where you need to be and going for it, 436 00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:31,236 Speaker 1: Which isn't to say that people need to leave their 437 00:25:31,236 --> 00:25:34,316 Speaker 1: professions or anything like that, but it's as though. I mean, 438 00:25:34,356 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 1: I think Gazzali in particular gave me the permission to 439 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 1: look at my own spiritual curiosity because he had done 440 00:25:40,356 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: so himself so explicitly and so carefully. I mean, my God, 441 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:47,796 Speaker 1: I can't think of an intellectual that really pierced through 442 00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 1: to the most essential issues more clearly than Gazzali. The 443 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:54,956 Speaker 1: other person whom I really wanted to ask you about 444 00:25:55,476 --> 00:26:00,836 Speaker 1: is the extraordinary jazz pianist Mary Lou Williams, and I 445 00:26:00,956 --> 00:26:03,876 Speaker 1: knew her only as a name and perhaps a little 446 00:26:03,916 --> 00:26:05,716 Speaker 1: bit of I'd heard a little bit of her music, 447 00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: but I had no idea of the extraordinary story of 448 00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:13,676 Speaker 1: her crisis. An awakening tell us a little bit about 449 00:26:13,796 --> 00:26:16,556 Speaker 1: Mary Lou Williams. So I've been trying to teach myself 450 00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 1: jazz quitar for at least as long as I've been 451 00:26:18,756 --> 00:26:22,596 Speaker 1: trying to study religion. I'm probably successful in both of them, 452 00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:25,516 Speaker 1: which is not very much. So. I'd heard about Mary 453 00:26:25,556 --> 00:26:28,916 Speaker 1: Lou Williams as somebody who had written a conceptual piece 454 00:26:28,956 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties, called the Zodiac Suite, and that's 455 00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:34,876 Speaker 1: how she sort of entered the cannon I somehow, I guess, 456 00:26:34,916 --> 00:26:39,476 Speaker 1: just scratching around, I learned that in nineteen fifty four, 457 00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:42,556 Speaker 1: when she was at age forty four, she had a 458 00:26:42,596 --> 00:26:46,556 Speaker 1: mental breakdown and walked off the stage in Paris and 459 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:49,236 Speaker 1: decided she was never going back again. And so I 460 00:26:49,276 --> 00:26:52,636 Speaker 1: became very interested in the life of Mary Lou Williams 461 00:26:52,636 --> 00:26:56,156 Speaker 1: and why that happened, and so I dug in deep. 462 00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 1: It turns out that Mary Lou Williams was a piano 463 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:03,276 Speaker 1: genius of the rank of Count Basie. It's amazing as 464 00:27:03,316 --> 00:27:07,036 Speaker 1: a female instrumentalist. She was the piano player that basically 465 00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:10,316 Speaker 1: swung the Andy Kirk Band in the ninth thirties. So 466 00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 1: she was a cant partner of a Kansas City group 467 00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 1: that was there with Count Basie and Benny Goodman and 468 00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:18,596 Speaker 1: all of them, and she made her bones in the thirties. 469 00:27:19,636 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 1: In the nineteen forties, she moved to New York and 470 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:27,276 Speaker 1: became part of the bebop generation and became the teacher 471 00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:31,356 Speaker 1: to some towering giants of piano, including Thelonious Monk and 472 00:27:31,876 --> 00:27:34,916 Speaker 1: the great Bud Powell. And so she was kind of 473 00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:37,916 Speaker 1: recognized as this real heavyweight in the scene. Miles Davis 474 00:27:37,916 --> 00:27:40,716 Speaker 1: was always trying to record with her. Dizzy Gillespie was 475 00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:43,636 Speaker 1: essentially her best friend or one of her best friends. 476 00:27:44,116 --> 00:27:47,036 Speaker 1: And she walked off the stage at age forty four. 477 00:27:47,076 --> 00:27:49,396 Speaker 1: And when I heard about that, or learned about that, 478 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:53,916 Speaker 1: I just felt the same visceral reaction as many of 479 00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 1: us do, which is the desire to just walk off 480 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:59,716 Speaker 1: the stage. And so I investigated as deeply as I 481 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,876 Speaker 1: could and saw yet another person able to turn their 482 00:28:02,916 --> 00:28:07,956 Speaker 1: life around. In her case, she was completely desponded in Paris, 483 00:28:09,356 --> 00:28:12,236 Speaker 1: shows up to get her back to New York and 484 00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:15,836 Speaker 1: tells her to start praying the Psalms. And Mary Lou 485 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:18,876 Speaker 1: Williams had always had a spiritual curiosity, and this opened 486 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:21,956 Speaker 1: up in her again the permission to go ahead and 487 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:24,996 Speaker 1: look into it. She gave up the piano and she 488 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 1: started to pray, very very fervently. And then, even though 489 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:32,196 Speaker 1: she was an African American woman raised essentially in Baptist 490 00:28:32,316 --> 00:28:34,916 Speaker 1: circles in New York City, as she was kind of 491 00:28:34,956 --> 00:28:38,636 Speaker 1: wandering around in Harlem on a Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon 492 00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:41,756 Speaker 1: looking for somewhere to sort of pray because she'd become 493 00:28:41,836 --> 00:28:44,716 Speaker 1: quite fervent in it. She noticed that the Catholic church 494 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: was open, which is such an amazing aspect of Catholicism, 495 00:28:48,036 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 1: which is that the churches, where the cathedrals, are just 496 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:53,196 Speaker 1: there for people to walk in to get a little 497 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:55,556 Speaker 1: bit of rest and to have maybe a private chat 498 00:28:55,636 --> 00:28:59,036 Speaker 1: with the Creator or whoever or however you want to 499 00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 1: conceive of divinity. And she started to do that very 500 00:29:02,636 --> 00:29:07,876 Speaker 1: very regularly, and at some point she started to hear things, 501 00:29:07,876 --> 00:29:12,636 Speaker 1: specifically music on her knees praying before her suffering Savior. 502 00:29:12,716 --> 00:29:15,956 Speaker 1: She started to get sounds in her head, and she decided, 503 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:18,996 Speaker 1: I have to put this into music for other people 504 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:21,876 Speaker 1: to appreciate the same feeling of prayer that I have 505 00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:24,636 Speaker 1: more with than reading my book. I recommend people go 506 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:27,476 Speaker 1: and listen to Mary Low's Mass. That's the first thing 507 00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:30,916 Speaker 1: I would tell them to do. It's a stunning work. 508 00:29:31,516 --> 00:29:36,236 Speaker 1: It's not Bach or Mozart. It swings. Her genius was 509 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:40,556 Speaker 1: the recognition that the swing rhythm brings people together. Rhythm 510 00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:44,436 Speaker 1: is one of the most profound and ancient aspects of 511 00:29:44,476 --> 00:29:47,836 Speaker 1: the religious or spiritual life. I mean, all traditions essentially 512 00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:51,196 Speaker 1: have it. We have native American traditions from fifteen thousand 513 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:54,876 Speaker 1: years ago. Very likely there are these architectural circles that 514 00:29:54,916 --> 00:29:58,436 Speaker 1: are created in North America that are currently reflected in 515 00:29:58,836 --> 00:30:02,196 Speaker 1: sundance rituals. But these rituals are all around the world 516 00:30:02,196 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 1: of people getting together with rhythm together and then commuting 517 00:30:06,676 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 1: with one another and something larger than themselves. And she 518 00:30:10,876 --> 00:30:13,796 Speaker 1: wrote that she realized that that's what jazz could be, 519 00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:17,716 Speaker 1: and she became absolutely committed to writing a jazz mass 520 00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:22,196 Speaker 1: and having it performed at the Vatican. It's a great story. 521 00:30:22,276 --> 00:30:25,716 Speaker 1: I could talk about it forever. It's an extraordinary story, 522 00:30:25,756 --> 00:30:28,596 Speaker 1: and I agree with your recommendation. That's what I did 523 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:30,676 Speaker 1: when I was reading that chapter, is that I immediately 524 00:30:30,756 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 1: went and downloaded her music and listened to it while 525 00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:34,756 Speaker 1: I was reading the chapter, and the combination was really, 526 00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:39,996 Speaker 1: really extraordinary. I wanted to ask you, Mickey, finally, about 527 00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:43,836 Speaker 1: whether the process of writing the book, struggling with the 528 00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:47,476 Speaker 1: ideas in the book, and finding some kind of piece 529 00:30:47,596 --> 00:30:51,156 Speaker 1: through the book worked for you. I mean, I found, 530 00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:54,636 Speaker 1: I have to say, reading the book to be extremely 531 00:30:54,716 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 1: powerful and it really helped me in my own journey, 532 00:31:00,956 --> 00:31:04,476 Speaker 1: clearly an unfulfilled journey in my case to try to 533 00:31:04,516 --> 00:31:07,196 Speaker 1: come to terms with the weight of the world. And 534 00:31:07,236 --> 00:31:10,596 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if it was full for you. I wonder 535 00:31:10,636 --> 00:31:12,796 Speaker 1: if you know when you think about where you are 536 00:31:12,836 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 1: now as a human being in relation to the universe, 537 00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:19,076 Speaker 1: relative to where you were when you began thinking about 538 00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:21,956 Speaker 1: this project and struggling with it and putting it through 539 00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:25,076 Speaker 1: the draft after draft, and the efforts to try to 540 00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:27,396 Speaker 1: make sense of it and to experience it, do you 541 00:31:27,396 --> 00:31:28,916 Speaker 1: feel that you are in a different place now? Was 542 00:31:28,956 --> 00:31:30,956 Speaker 1: writing the book a journey for you in a way 543 00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:33,516 Speaker 1: that reading the book at obviously a much more modest 544 00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:36,796 Speaker 1: and small scale, feels like a journey to me? Yes, 545 00:31:36,916 --> 00:31:38,956 Speaker 1: the book, I mean the answers, Yes, I'm in a 546 00:31:38,996 --> 00:31:42,116 Speaker 1: better place. I was given permission to follow my spiritual 547 00:31:42,116 --> 00:31:46,876 Speaker 1: curiosity by Ghazzali, by Mary lou Williams, by the other 548 00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:50,076 Speaker 1: figures in the book, and that was it. That was 549 00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:52,196 Speaker 1: the Keys of the Kingdom. And I wanted to you 550 00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:55,196 Speaker 1: know that earlier desire to write a book about the 551 00:31:55,236 --> 00:31:57,796 Speaker 1: spirit of spiritual adventure is really what I was trying 552 00:31:57,836 --> 00:32:02,076 Speaker 1: to achieve, that other people and myself could just see 553 00:32:02,116 --> 00:32:05,116 Speaker 1: how it had played out in people's lives and worked 554 00:32:05,116 --> 00:32:07,876 Speaker 1: for them, and just to give people the idea that, hey, 555 00:32:07,876 --> 00:32:11,116 Speaker 1: you could potentially work from. I feel like, you know, 556 00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:16,516 Speaker 1: for listeners who may ask themselves practically speaking, Okay, I've 557 00:32:16,556 --> 00:32:20,196 Speaker 1: got spiritual curiosity, what do I do next? Right? I 558 00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:23,676 Speaker 1: think the answer is follow it. I think that I 559 00:32:23,716 --> 00:32:26,676 Speaker 1: think that's the answer. That there's no particular thing for 560 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:29,716 Speaker 1: you to do. Everyone has to run their own experiment. 561 00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:32,236 Speaker 1: And so if you've always wanted to read the Bog 562 00:32:32,276 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 1: of Adida, then pick it up. And if you've always 563 00:32:35,356 --> 00:32:40,556 Speaker 1: wanted to sort of learn cantatas or whatever your curiosity is, 564 00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 1: it's worth pursuing in its own right. That earlier distinction 565 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:48,396 Speaker 1: between pleasure and joy is a distinction that I make 566 00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:52,276 Speaker 1: for myself now daily and regularly in a ritualized manner 567 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:54,956 Speaker 1: that we were talking about before, which is that I'm 568 00:32:55,036 --> 00:32:58,396 Speaker 1: constantly asking myself whenever I have enough sort of sentience 569 00:32:58,796 --> 00:33:03,156 Speaker 1: to be able to ask myself this question, which is 570 00:33:03,316 --> 00:33:06,556 Speaker 1: what I'm about to do the path of pleasure or 571 00:33:06,636 --> 00:33:08,436 Speaker 1: is it the path of joy? Is it something that's 572 00:33:08,476 --> 00:33:10,516 Speaker 1: going to just to pate as soon as I do it, 573 00:33:10,636 --> 00:33:12,956 Speaker 1: or is it something that's going to be edifying and 574 00:33:13,036 --> 00:33:16,356 Speaker 1: help me to build myself up, and typically my inner 575 00:33:16,436 --> 00:33:20,396 Speaker 1: voice is staggeringly clear when I'm aware enough to ask 576 00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:24,716 Speaker 1: the question. Something tells me when I'm on the right path, 577 00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:27,436 Speaker 1: and when I'm doing something that is edifying, and when 578 00:33:27,476 --> 00:33:29,436 Speaker 1: I'm on the wrong path, and when I'm doing something 579 00:33:29,476 --> 00:33:34,796 Speaker 1: that is going to feel really bad. And spiritual curiosity, 580 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:38,396 Speaker 1: I've never seen an instance in my life in which 581 00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:42,316 Speaker 1: it has led to conditions which I severely regretted. I 582 00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:44,356 Speaker 1: do have to say that, you know, we do face 583 00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:47,716 Speaker 1: the problem that people do use religion for all kinds 584 00:33:47,756 --> 00:33:51,076 Speaker 1: and spirituality for all kinds of terrible things, and I 585 00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:53,076 Speaker 1: don't know what their inner voice is tell them. I 586 00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:57,316 Speaker 1: don't know, but for me, that distinction between what is 587 00:33:57,516 --> 00:34:01,676 Speaker 1: edifying and what is not is clarifying to the very end. 588 00:34:02,436 --> 00:34:05,356 Speaker 1: Michael Alexander, you can't say it any better than that. 589 00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:09,676 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for that formulation. I think, especially 590 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:13,316 Speaker 1: in times as crazy and as polarized and as intense 591 00:34:13,796 --> 00:34:16,996 Speaker 1: as the ones we're going through, to try to keep 592 00:34:17,036 --> 00:34:21,716 Speaker 1: that distinction between pleasure and joy and mind is really revelatory. 593 00:34:21,796 --> 00:34:26,036 Speaker 1: Thank you. What a pleasure. I'm a longtime listener but 594 00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:28,276 Speaker 1: a first time caller, so thanks for having me on 595 00:34:28,316 --> 00:34:39,636 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks Mickey, you well, Okay. Talking to Professor 596 00:34:39,716 --> 00:34:44,276 Speaker 1: Alexander really brought home for me just why I found 597 00:34:44,356 --> 00:34:49,636 Speaker 1: his book so powerful. We all encounter and face crises. 598 00:34:50,356 --> 00:34:53,076 Speaker 1: Sometimes those crises are not of our own making and 599 00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:56,396 Speaker 1: come from the state of the nation, the way things 600 00:34:56,396 --> 00:35:00,476 Speaker 1: have felt in recent weeks. Other times, those crises feel 601 00:35:00,516 --> 00:35:06,276 Speaker 1: like they emerge almost unbidden, out of our own limited 602 00:35:06,756 --> 00:35:12,916 Speaker 1: human spiritual capabilities and resources. When that happens, we need help, 603 00:35:13,756 --> 00:35:16,316 Speaker 1: and we need to be able to turn to wise 604 00:35:16,476 --> 00:35:21,476 Speaker 1: friends and deep thinkers, and as it happens, Mickey Alexander 605 00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:26,276 Speaker 1: is both for me. The takeaway from our conversation and 606 00:35:26,396 --> 00:35:30,516 Speaker 1: from his book is that we can look inside ourselves 607 00:35:30,556 --> 00:35:34,556 Speaker 1: and seek after a path of joy, which doesn't mean 608 00:35:34,596 --> 00:35:36,796 Speaker 1: that we have big smiles on our faces all the time, 609 00:35:37,236 --> 00:35:40,956 Speaker 1: but rather that we're able to embrace the experiences of 610 00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:45,236 Speaker 1: making meaning that we encounter at every minute and every 611 00:35:45,316 --> 00:35:48,716 Speaker 1: day in our lives, and that can help us make 612 00:35:49,036 --> 00:35:52,516 Speaker 1: better choices. It can help us move away from the 613 00:35:52,556 --> 00:35:57,116 Speaker 1: path of transient pleasures or transient pains and in the 614 00:35:57,116 --> 00:36:01,436 Speaker 1: direction of those things that matter most to us and 615 00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:04,436 Speaker 1: that therefore enable us to feel the weight of the 616 00:36:04,476 --> 00:36:09,076 Speaker 1: world and give our assent to it. Until the next 617 00:36:09,316 --> 00:36:12,996 Speaker 1: time I speak to you. Be careful, be safe, and 618 00:36:13,076 --> 00:36:17,756 Speaker 1: be well. Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. 619 00:36:18,076 --> 00:36:21,636 Speaker 1: Our producer is Lydia Gencott, our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, 620 00:36:21,756 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 1: and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Theme music by 621 00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:28,636 Speaker 1: Luis Gera at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, 622 00:36:28,716 --> 00:36:32,716 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Carlie mcgliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. 623 00:36:33,276 --> 00:36:35,356 Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 624 00:36:35,756 --> 00:36:38,076 Speaker 1: I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you 625 00:36:38,116 --> 00:36:41,436 Speaker 1: can find at Bloomberg dot com slash feld To discover 626 00:36:41,516 --> 00:36:44,916 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com 627 00:36:44,956 --> 00:36:47,836 Speaker 1: slash Podcasts, and if you liked what you heard today, 628 00:36:48,076 --> 00:36:50,796 Speaker 1: please write a review or tell a frat This is 629 00:36:50,836 --> 00:36:51,596 Speaker 1: Deep Background.