1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast, 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmel, Managing editor of Crypto for 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. It's Thursday, October six. How do you go 4 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: from video game studio to major crypto VC investor in 5 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: the space of a few short years. That's exactly the 6 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: path that Anamoca Brands has been on. Since its founding 7 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen. Anamoca has expanded well beyond making 8 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: mobile games into owning and operating a portfolio of investments 9 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: and acquisitions that includes more than three hundred different finance, 10 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: gaming and social media companies. Yeahs, Anamoca's co founder has 11 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: as a result, become one of the most influence chill 12 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: people in technology. Bloomberg reporters Jumping Juang thinks we can 13 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: digitalize your ownership of your tokens and assets in a 14 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: way that everyone will has to property ownership and their 15 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: data is not controlled by a centralized company. Joins me 16 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: now to chart the path of Anamooka and its founder 17 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: from indie game studio to crypto conglomerate. So good to 18 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: have you on the show. Why don't you introduce ourselves 19 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: to our listeners. Hey, everyone, excited to be here. I 20 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: jumping Juan and I'm covering Asia technology and the crypto 21 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: out of Hong Kong. Lots going on in Asia technology 22 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: at all times. You have a pretty busy beat, but 23 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: lots going on, particularly as it relates to crypto and blockchain, 24 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: especially in terms of a company called Anamuka Brands. Why 25 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: don't you just tell us a little bit more about Animoka, 26 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: about their founder and why they've been in the news 27 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: so often recently. Yeah, So Animoca is like Asia's biggest 28 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: blockchain and webstree gaming master and this is its current status. 29 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: But it started like about a decade ago, and before 30 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: it's pivot into crypto, it was a sort of a 31 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: dying mobile game developer out of a based in Hong Kong, 32 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: and the company was making those casual mobile games. But 33 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: back in uh the company made its first investment in 34 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: Crypto Kiddies, which was the world's first like popular and 35 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: f t collection. So that was its like entry point 36 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: into crypto and ever since then it's been buying a 37 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: lot of like promising startups and projects in the crypto space, 38 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: and uh till this day, it's still doing so even 39 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: now we're in the middle of a cryptal in the 40 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: last year. Last summer, I think the company first reached 41 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: the unicorn status by reaching one billion US starar valuation 42 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: in a fundraising around led by Sequoia, and now the 43 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: company is valued as six billion US stars. So it's 44 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: just in the matter of twelve months. That's a lot. 45 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: It's it's it's a lot. It's a very large valuation. 46 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: It is a very short amount of time to achieve 47 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: that valuation. How is this happening? Like, who is the 48 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: person behind this? Right? So Yasu is the founder and 49 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: the mastermind behind all the pivot into crypto. So Yassu 50 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: it's not your typical tech bro like. He talks like 51 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: softly and he is a father of three kids. Um 52 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: and he always wear those sports where like the hoodie 53 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: and as like athletic pens. It can be just some 54 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: and that's jogging on a Hong Kong trail. That someone 55 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: you can run into in a morning job. But apart 56 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: from its her, he's like very soft like appearance in 57 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: the way he speaks. He has strong message for the 58 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: big tech that is he wants to use his company 59 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: and it's all subsidiaries. The tokens. He hoped to sort 60 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: of revolutionize the Internet of today because today's Internet it's 61 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: pretty much controlled by a couple like big players like 62 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:35,679 Speaker 1: mad Amazon, Microsoft or Tensent. But with blockchain, yes do things. 63 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: We can digitalize your ownership of your tokens and assets 64 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: in a way that everyone will has to property ownership 65 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 1: and their data is not controlled by a centralized company. 66 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: Now there's an interesting tension that you're describing, right, which 67 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: is that his you know, his whole thing is about 68 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: decentralization and how blockchain will give users and customers like 69 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: back the value that they currently provide to these big 70 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: tech companies. But Anamoca is now so big and has 71 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: invested in so many different types of companies, not just blockchain, 72 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: not just gaming, that they are kind of becoming a 73 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: sort of a centralized force in their own in their 74 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: own right. Yeah, they're sort of a gamekeeper in the 75 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: website space because they're so influential. And we talked to 76 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: some startup funders or crypital entrepreneurs. They sort of feel like, hey, 77 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: if we don't get the investment from Animal, does does 78 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: that mean we're missing out? And at the same time, 79 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: like yas it is trying to build the ecosystem, right, 80 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: Like it's trying to plug its portfolio companies into a 81 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: bigger internet blockchain system. For example, like one of its 82 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: subsidiaries is making game aims for the board Ape collection, 83 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: which is the one of the top empty collections. Things 84 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: like that. That approach will make people ask if I'm 85 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: not one of Animoca's investees, or if Animoka doesn't home 86 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: token to my crypto project, will I'll still be part 87 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: of the future that Yatu is envisioning. There's a big 88 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: question mark around that. Well, there's another question mark about 89 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: how sustainable is this future at all? Right, so they've 90 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: got this extremely concentrated crypto exposure in addition to having 91 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: like crypto on its own balance sheets in the middle 92 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: of what's turning out to be a pretty protracted crypto winter, 93 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: is Yatoo all worried about this? Right now? We're talking 94 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: looking at like crypto games like Ax and they sort 95 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: of pioneer the play to earn model, right, but it 96 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: doesn't really work during the down cycle. So once the 97 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: token price shop, if players are here for the money 98 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: but not for the fun, they will actually leave the game. 99 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: So we've seen that with cryptal kids, and we've seen 100 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: that with XI and will constantly happen as long as 101 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: like players are here for the for the money. Yes, 102 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that that problem actually for for his industry, 103 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: and he's sort of arguing that he's spending more time 104 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: to build a higher quality Triple A games, which may 105 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: take a couple of years to come to the market. 106 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: When we interview him, he showed us some demos trailers 107 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of blocking games. They're buildings. They look 108 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: similar to some of the more popular or better produced 109 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: games here in here in the in the traditional council market, 110 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: like for nine or uh there's another space shooter game 111 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: which looks actually pretty cool. If those, like more serious 112 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: games turned out to be a big hit, then it 113 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: will sort of part of the issue. Yes, he actually 114 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: thinks it's a good time to deploy more capital because 115 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: thunders studing money and Yasu has a big watch hast 116 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: so well just the company and him will just go 117 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: out and keep finding those bargaining investments. But I want 118 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: to go back to something that you said about the 119 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: potential for blockbuster games. It's not particularly controversial to point 120 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: out that most blockchain games right now are just not 121 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: fun and they are, as you just said, really environments 122 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: in which people are there for the money as opposed 123 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: to for the game, and the money is declining. Actually 124 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: Infinity again being an example of this, the fund is 125 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,599 Speaker 1: not necessarily rising. What do we think is the patients 126 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: of potential blockchain gamers if those like you know, Blockbuster 127 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: Fortnite equivalence are two to three years away. M M. 128 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: I think the issue will be like for companies like 129 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: in mon Card and the making Websta games, they shouldn't 130 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: be only targeting the crypto gamers or the cryptal traders. 131 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: They should be targeting the way bigger like game or market. 132 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: So if there's a day when Xbox player or a 133 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: ps PS five player that will be drawn to a 134 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: webstree game without noticing there's even a blockchain element to it, 135 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: then that will be a big successful animoca. So I 136 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: guess it's less about the patients for for cryptal enthusiasts 137 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: because they have the basic knowledge of the tokens and 138 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: that they will go through all the troubles of like 139 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: creating a wallet and linking into the game. But if 140 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: anamoca scame can can be naturally integrated to the blockchain 141 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: technology without letting gamers know, then you can have a 142 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: much bigger user adoption. I think that the challenge right 143 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: now is you can get a much bigger user adoption. 144 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: But like the time Horizon seems further away, is it 145 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: that animal Okay is using other parts of its portfolio 146 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: to kind of subsidize that potential couple of years between Okay, 147 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: we are where we are with the existing blockchain games, 148 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: but in you know, like our version of Fortnite is 149 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: just around the corner, Like, how are they bridging this 150 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: gap in the meantime. I think one of animals biggest 151 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: cash causes called Sandbox. That's a blockchain based huge GC 152 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: content platform similar to rob blocks or Minecraft. So what 153 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: Sandbox is doing is it's been doing a lot of 154 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: like those virtual lends sales. Two big brands like Nike 155 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: or even some of the local banks in Hong Kong. 156 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 1: They're spending huge money on just buying lands on a 157 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: virtual space which has yet to have much happening. Because 158 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: at the same time, game developers or even like indi 159 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: like game music enthusiasts are they're using the in game 160 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: tool to try to build those in game minigame on 161 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: top of the sandbox platform. That's happening while they're doing 162 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: the land sales, so as you can see, like they 163 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: have a sort of quick and a medium way to 164 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: make money. Meanwhile, they're letting their players in their ecosystem 165 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: to try to provide more content to fill the gap. 166 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Bloomberg Reports up 167 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: in Huang. What are some of the non crypto parts 168 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: of the Anamoka portfolio. Oh, yeah, they have some games 169 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: from the web twobe error, like like some power Ranger games. 170 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: So it's sort of the fighting and raising games that 171 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: they have published during the mobile game boom back like 172 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: ten years ago. But they're they're sort of just letting 173 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: those games to dept their own life, meaning they're they're 174 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: not putting extra resources into them. And at the same 175 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: time that they're looking at their portfolio or i mean 176 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: gaming portfolio and also profolio companies to see which are 177 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: the ones we should pick out and let them make 178 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: like blockchain game or turning like existing mobile games into 179 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: block chinking by adding a layer of the token economics. 180 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: Anamoka is clearly particularly as it relates to you know, 181 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: other investors and funders in the region, one of the 182 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: biggest out there. And when it comes to you know, 183 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: folks who if you if you don't live in China 184 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: or Japan or Singapore, and you might be less familiar 185 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: with them. They've been compared to like an Andrews and 186 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: Horowitz or an A sixteen C. Do you see them 187 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: as potentially getting kind of a similar reputation outside of 188 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: Asia where it's like folks who are based in New 189 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: York in or in Silicon Valley are looking to Anamoca 190 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: as a potential funder in the way that they look 191 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: to some of these you know, big US based venture 192 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: capital firms. Now, yeah, I think that's happening because right 193 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: now I'm traveling in the States and just spend a 194 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: couple of days in the Bay Area. So the Webstree founders, 195 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: at least the ones I met was they recognize and 196 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: Marca is a big player and people are flying to 197 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: Singapore to Hong Kong to meet them because they're big, 198 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: Like there's a crypto event happening in Singapore, and the 199 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: founders want to get any more money even if they're 200 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: based in the States. And as a matter of fact, 201 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: and Marka did acquire a like local game studio called 202 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: nWay here in San Francisco a couple of years ago. 203 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, actually it's making in rows into not only 204 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: Asia but also the bigger Western market. I think one 205 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 1: key difference between Marca and a VC from like a 206 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: six thc Is and Morca is actually, yes, it's a 207 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: game assment house, but it's also trying to do something 208 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: like a house. It's an operations company which grounds so 209 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: many games studios, right, But that may go back to 210 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: our earlier point that it still wants to would the 211 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: world of gamers with its own creation of the next 212 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: block pasture titles which happened to have a blockchain animent 213 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: to it. Right. So a kind of a comparison would 214 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: be like if Facebook slash matter we're one of the 215 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: biggest investors in other social media companies while also being 216 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Facebook slash matter, Yeah, exactly, and actually in Asia that's 217 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: tencent right in the in the process of your reporting, 218 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, you, because you've you've been reporting on for 219 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: a very long time, you have managed to kind of 220 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: convey the appropriately crypto levels of what seems to be 221 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: boundless enthusiasm and confidence that yet to an other folks 222 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: associated with anim have in terms of the future, But 223 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: what are their big plans, Like what's what's the five, ten, 224 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: fifteen year horizon. Mm hmm, that's a good question. I 225 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: wish I asked you asked you like, what's your five 226 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: year plan? Just like the Chinese government love five year 227 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: economic plan. But he was sort of saying like he 228 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: wished to take the company public in the next two 229 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: or three years, but depends on the market situation, because 230 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: I feel he's grown to a stage that he needs 231 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: to let investors away out because people have been backing 232 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: him since like twenty eighteen and the you know VC 233 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: or p from they need to cash out. The easiest 234 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: way will be through an I p O. But that 235 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: that's his like plans in the financial markets. But back 236 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: on the operation side of things, I think it's just 237 00:15:53,640 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: like keep acquiring up and calming blockchain startups or acquiring 238 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: that some internet startups that's already big in their own 239 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: niche and then through the acquisition and morca give them 240 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: a new play in blockchain. So a case of that 241 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: will be it's acquisition of an education company called tiny Tap, 242 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: which connects online tutors with with like school kids. So 243 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: there are content platform but now they're moving their content 244 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: to blockchain, so yeah, and Moca will just keep buying. 245 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: It's sort of also like the VC play like it's 246 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: a number of game right. Sometimes you fail sometimes the startups. 247 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: The startups will grow big, but you only need to 248 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: have a couple of wings to be successful. Well Time Hotel, 249 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you 250 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: being on the show. Thanks Stacy. You can find more 251 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: of his reporting on the Bloomberg terminal, on Bloomberg dot 252 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: com or on Twitter. He's at ping Roma. That's p 253 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: I N G R O m A. On the next 254 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: episode of Bloomberg Crypto, we'll catch you up on what's 255 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: been you guessed it yet another busy week in crypto. 256 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: We'll talk regulation, markets and why there are almost no 257 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: crypto CEOs left. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast 258 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from 259 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 260 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, 261 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: or suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot 262 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: net or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The 263 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergelina. Our senior 264 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Baruke and 265 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: Sharon Barriro Deafto wonder At is our engineer. Original music 266 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: by Leo Sidran. I'm Stacy Marie Shmal. We'll be back tomorrow.