1 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: Ryan Coberger outstargazing and driving the night four University of 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: Idaho students were murdered. That's part of the alibi he's 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 1: offering to the. 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: Court sometimes and then this won't shock anybody who's done 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: defense work. Clients will lie to their attorneys. 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre. A production of KAT Studios 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode four, A Hamster Wheel of Justice. 8 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 3: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 3: Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. On December thirtieth, twenty twenty two, 10 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 3: six weeks after the murders of Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, 11 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 3: Madison Mogen, and Kaylie Gonzalvez, twenty eight year old criminology 12 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 3: PhD student Brian Coburger was arrested at his family home 13 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania's Pocono Mountains. Here's Monroe County Assistant District Attorney 14 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 3: Michael Mancuso. 15 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 4: Mister Coburger was found awake in the kitchen area, dressed 16 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 4: in shorts and a shirt and wearing latex medical type 17 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 4: gloves and apparently was taking his personal trash and putting 18 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 4: it into separate ziploc baggies. 19 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 5: Here's Stephanie just picturing the accused Brian Coburger wearing shorts 20 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 5: and a T shirt in surgical latex gloves. Is such 21 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 5: a chilling detail, So let's just play this out for 22 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 5: a second. If in fact, Brian Coburger did this, that 23 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 5: would actually mean that he murdered four people. Then he 24 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 5: went back to class in the days thereafter. Then his 25 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 5: dad picks him up at his apartment in Washington, and 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 5: as we know, the two of them infamously drove in 27 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 5: Brian's white Alantra across country to go home for Thanksgiving break. 28 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 5: You'll also remember that the police hold Brian and his 29 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 5: dad over twice allegedly to see if he had any 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 5: scratch marks on his hand, and bodycam footage shows that 31 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 5: he did. Now he's home, he's at his parents' house 32 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 5: for Thanksgiving break, and he realizes his car is a 33 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 5: crime scene. So now he's wearing these latex gloves and 34 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 5: leaning it out, making sure that things are put in 35 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 5: their proper ziploc bags. CNN reported that he cleaned his 36 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 5: car inside and out, not missing an inch. That's a 37 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 5: pretty big deal. Does that mean he's just trying to 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 5: make sure there isn't any evidence left behind, or, as 39 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 5: the defense would probably say, maybe he's just a meticulous 40 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 5: guy that doesn't like germs and just likes to forever 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 5: be wearing a latex glove. 42 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: On January fourth, twenty twenty three, the accused was extradited 43 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 3: back to Idaho, where he appeared in court to wave 44 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: his right to a speedy trial. Seven long months after that, 45 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 3: on August two, twenty third Judge John Judge, who continues 46 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 3: to preside over the case, pushed back the initial start date, 47 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 3: which was set for October second, twenty twenty three. As 48 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: of this recording, a new trial start date has still 49 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 3: not been set. Recently, victim Kaylee Gonsalvez's family released a 50 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 3: statement saying this case is turning into a hamster wheel 51 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 3: of motions, hearings, and delayed decisions. Can we all just 52 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 3: agree that this case needs to move forward and the 53 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: judge needs to start setting hard deadlines in this case. 54 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: Kaylee's mom says she feels like they've been in limbo 55 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: now for more than a year, and while she's hopeful, 56 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: mostly what they want is a trial date to be. 57 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 3: Said, to get a better understanding of these pre trial proceedings. 58 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: I spoke with Kirk Nurmi, legal analyst and former defense 59 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: attorney to Jody Arius. Arius was in a widely publicized 60 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: death penalty case in twenty thirteen from murdering her ex 61 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: boyfriend Travis Alexander in Arizona. In the state of Idaho, 62 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 3: three people have been executed since the mid nineteen seventies. 63 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: For context, during that time, nearly sixteen hundred felons have 64 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: been put to death in the United States. I asked 65 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 3: Kirk about a hearing in this case that took place 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 3: on January twenty sixth, twenty twenty four. At that hearing, 67 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 3: Coberger's defense attorney, Ann Taylor, tried for the second time 68 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: to get all charges dismissed. I asked Kirk if it 69 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 3: was rare for attorneys to take a second bite at 70 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: the apple. 71 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 4: No. 72 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: We have to understand in a death penalty context, if 73 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: a defendant is sentenced to death, what the attorneys did 74 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: or did not do will be examined for years down 75 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: the road. I mean, if somebody is sentenced to death, 76 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: usually it takes about fifteen years for that execution to 77 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: actually take place, and during those fifteen years, the federal 78 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: courts will take a look at it, and it will 79 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 2: go all the way up to the US Supreme Court. 80 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: One of the reasons about fifty percent of the death 81 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: penalty verdicts get overturned, and one of the reasons for 82 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: that is the council's failure to pursue certain avenues of defense. 83 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: So it is reasonable and expected and really minimum practice 84 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: for the defense attorneys and the death penalty case to 85 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: pursue every avenue possible, even multiple times if there is 86 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: reason to do that. 87 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 6: The victim's family, you want the trial to be expedited. 88 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 6: It sounds like the judge as well wanted to expedite 89 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 6: the case, but defense obviously has been pushing hard to delay. 90 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 7: Can you speak to that. 91 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it goes back to some extent about 92 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: having things done right. I mean, the prosecution knows, and 93 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: with all due respect to the family, understand why they 94 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: want justice to be swift. But the prosecution understands that 95 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: if they are investing all these resources. I mean, it 96 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 2: always costs the state pursuing death penalty, both for the 97 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: prosecution team and for the defense team. It costs a 98 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: lot of money, it costs a lot of court resources, etc. 99 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: They want to make sure they do it once if 100 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: it is expedited in any way, and in that review 101 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: process years down the road, of course, there's no wait 102 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: a minute, this tra happened too fast because you did 103 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 2: not give the defense proper notice on this particular issue 104 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: or proper time to investigate the mitigating circumstances surrounding mister 105 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: Colberger's life. Then then it could be redone again, and 106 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: so hasty justice doesn't necessarily mean justice. It has to 107 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: be justice done thoroughly and one hundred percent correctly. Or again, 108 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: there's a fifty percent chance that a sentencing verdict would 109 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: be overturned. 110 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 7: Wow, that's a crazy high statistic. 111 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 6: Is the pressure so much higher because of that extra 112 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 6: judicial oversight? 113 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: Sure? I mean there's an expression amongst defense attorneys that 114 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: death is different, and that is exactly the case. It 115 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: is a meticulous, high stress situation where every avenue must 116 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: be pursued because of that scrutiny that is going to 117 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: face years down the road. No defense attorney wants to 118 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: be considered ineffective. Nobody involved wants to have to try 119 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: the case again. That fifty percent rate I talk about 120 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: it is always related to the sentencing. It doesn't have 121 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: anything to do with guilt or innocence, but it has 122 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: to do with that death sentence. And that means that 123 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: the judge, the prosecution, and the defense attorney all have 124 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: to do their job almost perfectly, if you will, because 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: the penalty is one from which no redress can be 126 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: made once it's imposed. 127 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 6: Here's something I don't know about, and I don't know 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 6: how much listeners do at all. What do people need 129 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 6: to know about closed door hearings for a grand jury? 130 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 6: And what is a grand jury? 131 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: Sure? Well, a grand jury, you know, you think about 132 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: it just like any other former jury. Duty might be 133 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: the way that people can relate to it most. But 134 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: when you're in a grand jury, it's secretive. It's just 135 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: the prosecution presenting evidence, and the question is there probable 136 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: cars to charge a defendant with a certain crime. The 137 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: defense is not there. They do not provide evidence. It's 138 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: not a trial. But ultimately it's that secret proceeding to 139 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: decide whether or not a charge is made. So the 140 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: difference really is the secrecy of it and the charging decision. 141 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: It's a lower standard versus you know, guilty or not guilty. 142 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: What a normal jury does in a public setting. 143 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 6: And are these just regular jury like I was on 144 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 6: jury duty yesterday as a matter of fact, Is this 145 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 6: just the normal population? Yes, I don't know why it 146 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 6: seems very mysterious to me. 147 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think it sounds mysterious because it's someone is 148 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: I mean, it happens behind closed doors. Nobody knows, you know, 149 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: about the preceding. The future defendant doesn't know that this 150 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 2: is going on. The testimony doesn't take place in open court, 151 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: there's no cross examination. All is that has really seen, 152 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: at least in my experience in Arizona. When it's done, 153 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 2: is the transcript of the proceedings? 154 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 8: That's it is? 155 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 7: The transcript? Does that go on the official record? 156 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 6: And is that something that can be looked at by 157 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 6: the defense or anyone else at a later time. 158 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly. And we see this in a lot of 159 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: death penalty cases, but also other cases where they might 160 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 2: challenge the sufficiency of the indictment, and those challenges are 161 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: all based on the grand jury. If the prosecution failed 162 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: to present exculpatory evidence that they knew they had, etc. 163 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: If a witness lied during the grand jury in order 164 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: to precipitate an indictment being filed, those sort of things 165 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: can be something that they looked at because you again, 166 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: you're not subject to cross examination. So if a police 167 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: officer goes in there and says something that is not 168 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: true or is later contradicted, they contradict themselves on the stand, 169 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: that testimony can be used to attack their credibility and 170 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: or attack the credibility of the indictment. 171 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 7: One more follow up with that. 172 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 6: Let's say that scenario just happened a police officer or 173 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 6: any witness is then you know their testimony is found 174 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 6: to be contradictory. Could that mean midstream that the charges 175 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 6: are then changed, that those are then dropped or is 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 6: that not the case? 177 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: No, that's unlikely because when you that is a challenge 178 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: that would maybe take place at the grand jury challenging 179 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 2: the grand jury transcript. So let's say Officer X goes 180 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: in and testifies to something and his police report is 181 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 2: completely different. You could maybe challenge the grand jury proceedings 182 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: on that basis. If it gets to the trial portion 183 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: of the proceedings, you could go back and impeach his 184 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: credibility with that prior testimony. Like in Arizona, there's limits 185 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: and I forget the exact amount of days, but you 186 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: have to challenge the grand jury finding within a certain 187 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 2: amount of days that precedes trial. So once that window 188 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: is closed and or things are ruled upon, that becomes 189 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: an issue for the appellate record, not trial per se, 190 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: other than to impeach the witness with their prior testimony. 191 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 6: So the second hearing I wanted to talk about this 192 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 6: happened February twenty eighth of this year, and this hearing 193 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 6: was open to the public. So in this instance, a 194 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 6: lot was made on the fact that the defendant, Brian Kolberger, 195 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 6: was wearing a suit. Can you give your thoughts on that, 196 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 6: the judge's decision, the family's reaction. 197 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: Sure, and I understand seeing some of the family's comments 198 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: how they don't appreciate seeing that what have you. But 199 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 2: we have to remember, going back to what I said 200 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: earlier about the propriety that everything is done right. In 201 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: a death penalty case, a defendant is presumed innocent, and 202 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: we tend to forget that, I think in the court 203 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 2: of public opinion, and if they are seen especially when 204 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: we talk about a high profile case like this, if 205 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: they are seen in jail garb or shackled with a 206 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: stun belt and chains, and what have you. Then people 207 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 2: begin to inform an impression not only of his guilt, 208 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: his violent nature. They begin forming those oppressions off those visuals. 209 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: So you want to prevent that at every stage of 210 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 2: the proceeding before guilt has been established, if you will. 211 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: So that is very important. Again, if you have an 212 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 2: appellat attorney looks down years down the road and says, well, look, 213 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: this guy was put in shackles and paraded in front 214 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 2: of the entire jury panel of Leta County, and therefore 215 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: his trial wasn't fair. That could be a viable argument 216 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: that could have a disc sentence reversed. 217 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 6: So really it sounds like for the greater good of 218 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 6: the sanctity of not having the case overturned. 219 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 2: Almost well, yeah, I mean, that's one less issue of pursuit, 220 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: if you will, on the appellate level at the federal. 221 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 6: Level, with your court room experience, I don't know if 222 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 6: you've had the experience of where a defendant is both 223 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 6: dressed in civilian closed and dressed in shackles, and is 224 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 6: there a different feel sort of in the room or 225 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 6: from the jury. 226 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: Well, the jury is only going to see a defendant 227 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: in street clothes. Quote unquote. If they are a danger, 228 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: every effort is made to mask any restraints that they 229 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: have on them. They're not going to be sitting there 230 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: with handcuffs on unless there's some particular reason for it. 231 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: The jury would probably be instructed not to make any 232 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: inferences from that. So anytime somebody's in front of a jury, 233 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: they are going to be in quote unquote street clothes, 234 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 2: and any restraints will be masked. 235 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 6: That's a really interesting point because I must have conflated 236 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 6: seeing pre trial hearings because I'm like, oh, well, I 237 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 6: can picture plenty of defendants and clothes, but not in 238 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 6: front of the jury. 239 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: That's true. So if there is a pre trial where 240 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: it's only the judge, if you will, and not televised, 241 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:09,119 Speaker 2: then the judge has knowledge obviously of the defendant's custodial 242 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: status because in many cases they've set that status. They 243 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: don't need to be protected from it if it doesn't 244 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: interfere with the sixth Amendment right of the defendant. Because ultimately, 245 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: in a courtroom, it is the jury that makes the decision. 246 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: They are the final arbiter of guilt or innocence. 247 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes perfect sense, perfect sense, Thank you. 248 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 249 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 3: a moment. There have been well more than a dozen 250 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 3: pre trial hearings in this case, but the most significant 251 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,119 Speaker 3: revelation is the alibi of the accused. 252 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 9: So here. 253 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: Their alibi defense apparently is that he likes to drive 254 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: around and see the moon and the stars. 255 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 8: The new alibi. I have like a little theory about that. 256 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: Do I buy it? No? 257 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: The prosecution is currently taking great issue with what they 258 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 3: claim is the defense's lack of progress in furthering the 259 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 3: details of the defendant's alibi, and in April twenty fourth, 260 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, filing from prosecutor Bill Thompson, he writes, 261 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: it has now been approximately eleven months since the state 262 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: filed its request for discovery disclosure alibi demand on May 263 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 3: twenty third, twenty twenty three, and almost a year and 264 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 3: a half since the homicides occurred. The defendant has been 265 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: given more time than he is legally entitled in order 266 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 3: to provide his alibi. The state is substantially prejudiced and 267 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 3: compromised in its ability to investigate and respond to new 268 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: or additional alibi related disclosures. 269 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: Ryan Coburger outstargazing and driving the night four University of 270 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: Idaho students were murdered. That's part of the alibi he's 271 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: offering to the court. 272 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: That's crime reporter Antoinette Levy, who's been following this case 273 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: from the beginning. She continues describing the alibi details on 274 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 3: a recent an episode of Law and Crime Network's Crime 275 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 3: Fix with Antoinette Levy. 276 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: So he says he certainly wasn't at that house. Instead, 277 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: his lawyer's right mister Coburger was out driving in the 278 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: early morning hours of November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, as 279 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: he often did to hike and run and or see 280 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: the moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south 281 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: of Pullman, Washington, west of Moscow, Idaho, including Wawaii Park 282 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: in Idaho. If a defendant is going to claim they 283 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: have an alibi, they have to tell the prosecutor about 284 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: a specific place or place is where they were when 285 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: a crime took place, and they have to identify a 286 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: witness or witnesses who can vouch for them. 287 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: In the state's motion filed after the alibi was revealed, 288 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: Prosecutor Bill Thompson writes, the state respectfully submits that the 289 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 3: defendant's supplemental alibi response continues to lack the specificity required 290 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 3: by Idaho Code nineteen Dash five, Pine nine, which provides 291 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 3: that the defense shall state the specific place or places 292 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 3: at which the defendant claims to have been at the 293 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 3: time of the alleged defense, and the names and addresses 294 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 3: of the witnesses upon whom he intends to rely to 295 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 3: establish such alibi. In an effort to better understand the 296 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 3: legalities of these motions, I continued my conversation with Kirknermi. 297 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 3: I asked him to explain why the prosecution had such 298 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 3: a strongly worded filing after the alibi was revealed. 299 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: It's interesting because idahol must be a little different. An alibi, 300 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 2: in my experience in Arizona, is nothing that has to 301 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: be supported or enunciated. I mean, you might call witnesses 302 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: to support it, but you wouldn't have to enunciate it 303 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: if you will. 304 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 7: I'd love clarification of the fact that in this case, 305 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 7: the prosecution said the lack of a finalized version of 306 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 7: Coberger's alibi was concerning and argue that a deadline was 307 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 7: necessary to ensure the alibi was not affected by evidence 308 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 7: unveiled during discovery I guess first, what is discovery because 309 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 7: my understanding was that was the finding out of information. 310 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there is a bit of mystery surrounding 311 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 2: that because we don't have all the information. My understanding 312 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: is that what the Coburger team is saying with this 313 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: stargazing alibi, if you will, is that they will be 314 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: able to support this alibi, not by persons or you know, 315 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 2: video evidence, but strictly by cell phone evidence that contradicts 316 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: the cell phone evidence brought in by the state. And 317 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: they are also making the assertion, as I understand it, 318 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: that the state has not fully disclosed all the cell 319 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: phone evidence that would be supportive of the alibi. Thus, 320 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: they are simply putting out there that he was stargazing 321 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: and their cell phone expert will support that. 322 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 6: I have to ask, what's your knee jerk reaction to 323 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 6: the alibi? 324 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 7: If you want to share, do I buy it? No? 325 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: But if that's what you're asking, do I buy it no? 326 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 2: But it remains to be seen what the cell phone 327 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 2: evidence is going to demonstrate. A lot of people send 328 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 2: to think that a defense attorney or a group of 329 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: defensive attorneys sit down and concoct a defense or that 330 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: they sit down with their client and they make up 331 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 2: a defense. But sometimes this won't shock anybody who's done 332 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: defense work. Clients will lie to their attorneys, right, and 333 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: a lot of times sometimes you know you can lie 334 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 2: in a way that there's no affirmative proof to the contrary. 335 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 2: So he says, I'm out stargazing. He very well could 336 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: have been stargazing before or after he committed this crime. 337 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 2: There's no proof to the contrary. So my guess is 338 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: mister Kolberger believes he's very smart and says, hey, this 339 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 2: is my alibi. You can't disprove it. 340 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 3: Stephanie joins the conversation. 341 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 5: That does sound like it's right out of a movie. 342 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 8: Is that what actually happens. 343 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 5: Somebody seems so tricky that they're going to create this 344 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 5: entire fabric of a story to their defense attorney. As 345 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 5: a defense attorney, are you able to call bs or 346 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 5: do you have to play along? 347 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 2: Well, as a defense attorney, unless you can disprove it, 348 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: you have to allow the client to tell their story. 349 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 2: You are not judging jury. You are there to help 350 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 2: them tell their story, whether you believe it or not. 351 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 2: So if a client comes up and we continue with 352 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 2: the alibi example, how can you disprove that? Is there 353 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: some way to disprove that? No, if there's not, that's 354 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 2: the point. Unless the attorney can prove the alibi to 355 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: be false. Let's say he says I was with my 356 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: mother or I was buying gas, and there's no evidence 357 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: to support the alibi. Then he or she can confront 358 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: their client with this evidence. There's no gotcha moment, right, 359 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: There's no one more thing ask you this because you 360 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: can't disprove it. And that's why a lot of criminal 361 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 2: defense think, hey, this is a great story because it 362 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: cannot be disproven. They've got time to sit in jail 363 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: and vet their lie, if you will. And this cannot 364 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: be disproven, can't be able to be proven, but it 365 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 2: certainly can't be disproven. 366 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 5: Is it as simple as somebody checking the weather to 367 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 5: say that that particular night there were no stars to 368 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 5: be seen in the sky. 369 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: No, not at all. I mean it's you could still stargaze, 370 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: you can still gaze at the clouds, you could do anything, right. 371 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: I mean, there's you could say it's less probable, but 372 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 2: you can't definitively prove it to be a lie. 373 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 5: Can you, as a defense attorney. You hear this story, 374 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 5: you're not buying it. Are you able to excuse yourself 375 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 5: as the defense attorney? 376 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: No, just because you don't believe a story doesn't mean 377 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: that you are not the right attorney for the car. 378 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 2: I mean clients all the time in my so, I 379 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: want an attorney that believes in me. I want an 380 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: attorney that believes in me. And the response is fine, 381 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: if you want one, stupid enough, go find one. But 382 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 2: I'm not going to buy this story, and I don't 383 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: think a jury will. But if that doesn't knock the 384 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: client off the story, then they they the client can 385 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 2: get up on the stand and tell that story. Brian 386 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: Colberger can get up on the stand and tell the 387 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: story that he was stargazing that night. That does not 388 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: violate the ethics of the attorney, and as a matter 389 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: of fact, it is their ethical obligation. Particularly in a 390 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: death penalty case. An attorney can't say, well, you know what, 391 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: I had this defense or I had this bit of mitigation, 392 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: but I didn't believe it, so I didn't present it 393 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: to the jury because it's not what the attorney believes, 394 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: it's what the jury believes. 395 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 3: After this conversation, we checked the weather and saw that 396 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 3: when Coberger is alleged to be stargazing, it was overcast 397 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: with intimate and isis fog. Having spoken with defense attorney 398 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: Kirk Nurmi, Stephanie and I wanted to balance the equation. 399 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 3: Here's a turn me and former prosecutors Steven Greenberg's take 400 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 3: on the suspect's alibi and how he thinks it might 401 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 3: play in court. 402 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 9: It underscores the lack of sophistication of the sense team. 403 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 9: It really does. I mean, are you going to open 404 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 9: through a jury and say that the jury that we 405 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 9: have a moon in the stars defense that's our alibi. 406 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 9: Come on, they're going to look at you and say, 407 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 9: my goodness, where did you come from? 408 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 6: Is there anything to the fact that you kind of 409 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 6: can't poke holes in it versus saying, you know, I 410 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 6: went to the gas station at twelve thirty three am. 411 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 6: So is that perhaps the rationale that there's nothing specific 412 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 6: about it, that it is so vague. 413 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 9: I think it's like throwing a whole bunch of stuff 414 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 9: against the wall helps something sticks or something will come 415 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 9: out later on. They should have got the prostitutions trying 416 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 9: to avoid that will boaster it. They just want to 417 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 9: have it out there. They're obligating it to disclose their albi. 418 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 3: Stephanie speaks with Inside Edition reporter Chris Bargo, who followed 419 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 3: the case from the beginning, to get his thoughts on 420 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 3: the alibi revelation. 421 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 10: Right now, when people ask you about his guilt or 422 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 10: innocence based on what we know concretely, I mean, it's 423 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 10: hard to really say one way or the other. I mean, 424 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 10: we don't really know much about the prosecution's case, but 425 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 10: we know the defense is entire alibi, so that you know, 426 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 10: at this point when you think about it, the defense 427 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 10: has a much better case just because we know so little. 428 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 10: We know the proba will cause affidavor that says he 429 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 10: is in the cell phone area. They don't have math 430 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 10: house in that Affidavid. We don't know. There could be 431 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 10: fingerprints in the house we don't know about. There could 432 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 10: be a million things we don't know about. What we 433 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 10: know for a fact. They know we have his car 434 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 10: leaving Washington State University. We know his car arriving back 435 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 10: at Washington State University. We know foods a few sightings 436 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 10: of it along the way heading towards Moscow, leaving and 437 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 10: we have some photos of the car. No, we have 438 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 10: photos of the car. We don't have photos of Brian Coberger. 439 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 10: None of those things say that they have photos of Brian. 440 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 10: But they could prove that Brian is there. They could 441 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,719 Speaker 10: say they have a car that looks like Brian's driving. 442 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 10: It's certainly reasonable. Doubt wise, it's not awful. They don't 443 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 10: have his car park there. For what we know, they 444 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 10: don't have him getting out of the car. They don't 445 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 10: have him inside the house of the information we have 446 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 10: so far, So based on that alone, it's hard to 447 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 10: convict someone with that alibi at this stage given what 448 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 10: we know, because we don't really have any other evidence 449 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 10: of definitively places in there. 450 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 5: And by the way, most of this information is really circumstantial. 451 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 7: Is it very. 452 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 5: Likely that all these small things all happened to lead 453 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 5: to the same guy? 454 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 8: Who the hell knows? 455 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 5: That's just the reality of it. We don't know, And 456 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 5: the sum of small things I'm not convinced should equal 457 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 5: death in my humble opinion. And of course, you know, 458 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 5: we're still at the phase of gathering information. 459 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 10: The burdens right now are aligning with the prosecution the defense. 460 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 10: Like I said, the defense. Alibi is not much in 461 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 10: the way of a It's not like he was with 462 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 10: a friend who was driving alone. If you have to 463 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 10: pick an alibi and you couldn't think of one that 464 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 10: you know, I was alone doing something. But with this 465 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 10: case and what we know, it's again reasonable doubt. So 466 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 10: could you say, knowing what we know, could you one 467 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 10: hundred percent say that he's guilty of deserves that I 468 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 10: would not want to put someone to death based on 469 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 10: that nolgulum. There's something there that's going to be mind 470 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 10: boggling when it's presented. 471 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 3: I reached out to data analysts Body Movin, host of 472 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 3: another KTI Studios podcast, Drew Crimes. Her incredible soothing skills 473 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 3: came to be known in the public with Netflix documentary 474 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: Don't f with Cats. After dissecting the alibi, motion Body 475 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 3: had her own particular thoughts to share. 476 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 8: I think what's interesting maybe to talk about is the 477 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 8: alibi the new alibi, because I have like a little 478 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 8: theory about that. 479 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 3: Body reads to the amended alibi. 480 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 8: Brian Coberger's amended alibi says that he was busy with 481 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 8: classes at work and at Washington State University, and he 482 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 8: was running and hiking and those activities decreased but did 483 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 8: not stop. Instead, his nighttime drives increased, and it says 484 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 8: this is supported by data from mister Coberger's phone showing 485 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 8: him in the countryside late at night or early in 486 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 8: the morning on several occasions. The phone data includes numerous 487 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 8: photographs taken on several different late evenings and early mornings, 488 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 8: including in November, depicting the night sky. And then it 489 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 8: goes on to say mister Coburger was out driving in 490 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 8: the early morning hours of November thirteenth, as he often did, 491 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 8: to hike and or run see the moon and stars. 492 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 8: He drove throughout the area of south of Pullman, Washington, 493 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 8: west of Moscow, Idaho, including Wahwawee Park. So it's basically 494 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 8: saying he always goes driving late at night, and there's 495 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 8: evidence of pictures taken on his phone, including pictures that 496 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 8: were taking in November. Now, it doesn't say that he 497 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 8: has pictures from that night or that morning. It just 498 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 8: says including in November. So we need to make that 499 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 8: clear right now because a lot of people are running 500 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 8: with well he has pictures from his phone that night. 501 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 8: No he doesn't, No, he doesn't. So that's number one, 502 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 8: because that's a big thing online right now. People are like, well, 503 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 8: it's done, he's got a picture, it's got metadata. No, no, no, 504 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 8: I very much doubt that. And number two, the PCA 505 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 8: says Brian Coburger either turned off his phone, turned it 506 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 8: onto airplane mode, or was out of service and then 507 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 8: picked back up after the murders. Here's what I kind 508 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 8: of think and something I kind of want to talk 509 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 8: to you about. In the alibi, it states that there's 510 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 8: going to be this Sirae who's the CSLI expert, the 511 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 8: cell phone tower, cell phone and other radio frequency expert 512 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 8: to corroborate that Brian Coburger's phone was south of Pullman 513 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 8: and west of Moscow. Well, we've got a map of 514 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 8: Idaho or in Washington, where is Waweb Park. It's south 515 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 8: of Pullman and west of Moscow. Okay. So here's what 516 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 8: I kind of think. And it's a bad service area. 517 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 8: By the way, it's important to note that it's a 518 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 8: bad service area. 519 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 520 00:28:54,040 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 3: a moment. Body goes on to say this herself, but 521 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 3: it's important to note that the following is her own opinion. 522 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 3: Based on extrapolations made from reviewing legal documents. 523 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 8: I think what happened is, is it possible that Brian 524 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 8: Coberger actually did go to Wawei Be Park just outside 525 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 8: the gate or along that area and left his phone 526 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 8: like in a bush or something, drove to Moscow because 527 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 8: it took him like an hour, did his murders, and 528 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 8: then drove back to Wawi Bee Park and got the phone. 529 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 8: Because it puts his phone at a location where he's 530 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 8: been previously many times, but it's got terrible service, so 531 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 8: it gives him credibility to this alibi. And if that's true, 532 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 8: is that an area that police now and whatnot need 533 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 8: to be looking at for a k bar dicky coveralls? 534 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 8: Do you know what I mean? Like evidence of a 535 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 8: dumping of some kind? 536 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 7: Like that's a really really interesting thought. 537 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 8: If what I said about, you know, leaving the phone 538 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 8: at what we We park is true, then that shows intention. 539 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 8: I mean, obviously there was intention, clearly, but what I 540 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 8: mean is like premeditation in ways that I hadn't really 541 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 8: considered all that much. It just shows a lot more 542 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 8: purpose because it's very sheet. But again it's just a theory. 543 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 3: More on that next time for more information on the 544 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 3: case and relevant photos. Follow us on Instagram at kat 545 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger, 546 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design 547 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,959 Speaker 3: by Jeff Trois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker 548 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 3: is a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more 549 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 3: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 550 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You can follow 551 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 3: Kirknermi on Instagram and x at Nermi Unchained, and find 552 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 3: his books on Amazon.